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Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 08:14 AM
Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

Acts 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
live in them.

Firstfruits

azheis
Aug 8th 2008, 12:46 PM
I guess I am not exactly sure what your question is. I will throw this out there and see if any of this sticks.

Both believing and faith are translated from the one Greek word pistis. What is used where is determined as you read the context.
We know that in OT believers could believe God………….. but there was no faith {per se} in the OT.
Galatians 3:23 But beforefaith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

If there was a time when pistis {faith or believing} was not available……….. and we know that believing was available throughout the OT, it has to be faith ……specifically “the faith of Jesus Christ” which was not available.

If this is close to what your question was…. let me know ……if not ….C’est la vie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bless
azheis

Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 01:44 PM
I guess I am not exactly sure what your question is. I will throw this out there and see if any of this sticks.

Both believing and faith are translated from the one Greek word pistis. What is used where is determined as you read the context.
We know that in OT believers could believe God………….. but there was no faith {per se} in the OT.
Galatians 3:23 But beforefaith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

If there was a time when pistis {faith or believing} was not available……….. and we know that believing was available throughout the OT, it has to be faith ……specifically “the faith of Jesus Christ” which was not available.

If this is close to what your question was…. let me know ……if not ….C’est la vie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bless
azheis

The disciples preached/taught about Jesus from the law and the prophets, the law of commandments is also taught from the law and the prophets.Even though they are both from the same scriptures only by putting our faith in Jesus is there justification, so where in the law is our faith?

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Aug 8th 2008, 02:20 PM
The law is somewhat contrary to faith. They are two totally different ideas. Paul contrasts the law and faith frequently...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

timmyb
Aug 8th 2008, 02:42 PM
well to obey the law is one thing... to boast in the law is totally different... Paul himself was a man who walked blameless... although he kept the law his boast was not in it... because he himself knew that he would not be able to keep the law without the grace of God on him

it's grace that allows us to do anything by the law, and when we disobey that law we reject grace...

there are certain principles that the law has... for example... you drive over the speed limit, you will meet the law the hard way... that's a fact of life... you place yourself outside the spirit of Grace that allows you to obey the law, you will meet the consequences of the law... so when God says don't do this because this will happen, a good idea would be not to do it because he's God he doesn't change and the consequence will happen when you disobey the commandment.... similar to the law of gravity... you walk off a cliff, you will fall...

Firefighter
Aug 8th 2008, 04:16 PM
well to obey the law is one thing... to boast in the law is totally different... Paul himself was a man who walked blameless... although he kept the law his boast was not in it... because he himself knew that he would not be able to keep the law without the grace of God on him

Not true...Act 18:12-13 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."

threebigrocks
Aug 8th 2008, 04:41 PM
Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

Acts 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
live in them.

Firstfruits


The law drives us to the cross. It exposes our inability to live a life pleasing to God, exposes our sin nature of the flesh which keeps us alienated from salvation. The law isn't our faith, but it guides us to it. Without the law, the abundance of grace that is available to us cannot be realized.

Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 05:02 PM
How does the following compare with the understanding that Jesus was sent for the whole world, and the law is not for all?

Concerning Jesus
Lk 1:79 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Lk 2:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Acts 13:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 26:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Is 42:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=42&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Is 42:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=42&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

Is 49:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=49&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


Concerning the law
Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

Firstfruits

drew
Aug 8th 2008, 05:16 PM
How does the following compare with the understanding that Jesus was sent for the whole world, and the law is not for all?

Concerning the law
Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by The deeds of The law There shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by The law is The knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without The deeds of The law.

Firstfruits
The law - the Torah is not for all, it is only for the Jews. However, one of Paul's central arguments of Romans is that, from the very beginning, the covenant promises were not exclusive to the Jews.

I believe that the Torah was given to Israel with a "dark" intent - to actually make her more sinful:

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase

Why would God do this? Because, I suggest, He is engaged in a complex plan to defeat sin specifically by "luring" into national Israel and then focussing it and concentrating it (sin) in the flesh of Israel's representative Messiah, and then condemning it.

God has "tricked" sin into one place - the flesh of Jesus. Once "cornered" in this way, God then condemns sin.

So Torah was part of this plan - by giving it to Israel, the process of luring sin into one place was initiated.

So I see perfect harmony between the "Israel-specificity" of Torah and the "non Israel-specificity" of the covenant blessings.

Emanate
Aug 8th 2008, 05:30 PM
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law was never about Justification. The Law is about obedience. The Law or Torah (instruction in Hebrew) does not contrast faith, it complements our faith as seen clearly in Romans 4:11:

And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham found righteousness by his faith while uncircumsized, yet he then became circumsized as a "seal of the righeousness of faith." Clearly a wonderful sign how the law compliments our faith.

Paul never taught against the Words of YHVH. Paul spoke against the laws of the Pharisees wich eventually turned into the Talmud of Rabbinic Judaism.

drew
Aug 8th 2008, 05:50 PM
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul never taught against the Words of YHVH. Paul spoke against the laws of the Pharisees wich eventually turned into the Talmud of Rabbinic Judaism.
Are you claiming that Torah is still in force?

timmyb
Aug 8th 2008, 06:09 PM
Not true...Act 18:12-13 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."


that was their accusation... but Paul's response in one of his trials was that he has walked blameless... Jesus was contrary to Pharisaical law... that was the law that Paul was violating, not the law of God

drew
Aug 8th 2008, 06:22 PM
that was their accusation... but Paul's response in one of his trials was that he has walked blameless... Jesus was contrary to Pharisaical law... that was the law that Paul was violating, not the law of God
Are you sure? My reading of Paul is that he considers the regulations of Torah to have ceased being in effect. I will not argue why I think this is is so in the present post. However, if Paul did believe Torah as a set of rules and prescriptive behaviours has been retired, it would make perfect sense for people to see him as advocating the abandonment of Torah.

Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 07:15 PM
The law drives us to the cross. It exposes our inability to live a life pleasing to God, exposes our sin nature of the flesh which keeps us alienated from salvation. The law isn't our faith, but it guides us to it. Without the law, the abundance of grace that is available to us cannot be realized.

Is it that which is written in the law/scriptures that leads us to the cross, as it is through the scriptures we have received the promise of Jesus and the cross?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 07:22 PM
The law - the Torah is not for all, it is only for the Jews. However, one of Paul's central arguments of Romans is that, from the very beginning, the covenant promises were not exclusive to the Jews.

I believe that the Torah was given to Israel with a "dark" intent - to actually make her more sinful:

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase

Why would God do this? Because, I suggest, He is engaged in a complex plan to defeat sin specifically by "luring" into national Israel and then focussing it and concentrating it (sin) in the flesh of Israel's representative Messiah, and then condemning it.

God has "tricked" sin into one place - the flesh of Jesus. Once "cornered" in this way, God then condemns sin.

So Torah was part of this plan - by giving it to Israel, the process of luring sin into one place was initiated.

So I see perfect harmony between the "Israel-specificity" of Torah and the "non Israel-specificity" of the covenant blessings.

The law speaks of Jesus and it also speaks of the law of commandments, but it spoke of christ in the law before the law of commandments were given.

If they had believed what was written in the law they would have believed Jesus and he would not have been killed and the law would not have been fulfilled.

Jn 5:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 8th 2008, 07:26 PM
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law was never about Justification. The Law is about obedience. The Law or Torah (instruction in Hebrew) does not contrast faith, it complements our faith as seen clearly in Romans 4:11:

And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham found righteousness by his faith while uncircumsized, yet he then became circumsized as a "seal of the righeousness of faith." Clearly a wonderful sign how the law compliments our faith.

Paul never taught against the Words of YHVH. Paul spoke against the laws of the Pharisees wich eventually turned into the Talmud of Rabbinic Judaism.

What is the law that they established?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 28:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 8th 2008, 08:35 PM
DREW

Yes, I am claiming that the Word of God is eternal.

timmyb
Aug 8th 2008, 09:57 PM
Are you sure? My reading of Paul is that he considers the regulations of Torah to have ceased being in effect. I will not argue why I think this is is so in the present post. However, if Paul did believe Torah as a set of rules and prescriptive behaviours has been retired, it would make perfect sense for people to see him as advocating the abandonment of Torah.

keep in mind that when Paul says the law he could be talking about two different things... the mosaic law that required ordinance and sacrifice, or the moral law of God that we are all supposed to keep and what Jesus was talking about in the sermon on the mount that he says that will be in effect even though heaven and earth pass away... kinda like Paul when he was talking about the flesh... either the sin nature or the body itself... so we need to establish what kind of law we are talking about here or else this discussion is dead....

yaza
Aug 9th 2008, 12:26 AM
Are you claiming that Torah is still in force?
Its frustrating to read spirit filled christians still debating the law. Paul said if you are under the law you are cursed. Sin is disobeying the law the soul that sins shall die. you people are not obeying the one who warns from heaven. we are dead to sin and the law. we serve in a new way of the spirit. god made a new covenant. i thank god everyday that we are not under the law because all of us still sin, and we know ther is no more sacrifice left for sin. christ made it once for all. pray to god to open your eyes so we can get down to the business of telling people the good news.

Mograce2U
Aug 9th 2008, 12:33 AM
Its frustrating to read spirit filled christians still debating the law. Paul said if you are under the law you are cursed. Sin is disobeying the law the soul that sins shall die. you people are not obeying the one who warns from heaven. we are dead to sin and the law. we serve in a new way of the spirit. god made a new covenant. i thank god everyday that we are not under the law because all of us still sin, and we know ther is no more sacrifice left for sin. christ made it once for all. pray to god to open your eyes so we can get down to the business of telling people the good news.There you go! And an excellent first post it is - welcome to the boards where the debates are never-ending...

Mograce2U
Aug 9th 2008, 12:41 AM
What is the law that they established?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 28:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

FirstfruitsAnd also from Luke we have these words from Jesus:

(Luke 24:44-49 KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. {45} Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, {46} And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: {47} And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. {48} And ye are witnesses of these things. {49} And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


The prophetic scripture is about the hope in the coming of Christ, and this hope is what established their faith. The law kept them shut up in faith and sanctified until the time of the promise arrived. The law was not of faith, rather it was for holiness. Faith rather has always been born of hope - even way back in the garden. When Adam was told how a redeemer was coming to overturn sin and death and that thru the birth of children this hope would overcome the penalty of death that had come upon him. The birth of children is the first picture given of the resurrection hope of new life that is ongoing.

calidog
Aug 9th 2008, 12:50 AM
Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

Acts 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
live in them.

Firstfruits
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

threebigrocks
Aug 9th 2008, 02:32 AM
Is it that which is written in the law/scriptures that leads us to the cross, as it is through the scriptures we have received the promise of Jesus and the cross?

Firstfruits

It is through the promise of God through Christ, who fufilled the law perfectly and gives us the opportunity to receive grace through repentance and faith. The law shows us our need for a Savior and brings about repentance, paving the way to grace should we answer the door when He knocks at our heart.

drew
Aug 9th 2008, 02:48 AM
DREW

Yes, I am claiming that the Word of God is eternal.
I think that Paul believed that the Torah had achieved its purpose and was "retired with honour" with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

There is a sense in which Paul believes that there is a "Torah" still in effect, but Paul believes that the system of laws and practices commonly referred to as the Law or the Torah no longer applies to any one.

Probably the clearest indication of this is in Romans 10:4

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

And we have this from Ephesians 1:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

This is a complicated issue - Paul certainly does believe that there is a sense in which the Torah is still in force, but this text from Ephesians, if not other texts, make it clear the "rules and practices" prescriptions of Torah are now abolished.

There is another argument as to why Torah - in the "rules and practices" sense - is seen by Paul as having accomplished its purpose and therefore come to an end. Paul sees the Torah as having the strange divine intent of magnifying and concentrating sin in national Israel. From Romans 5:20:

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase

God does this thing in order to "lure" sin into national Israel before handing it off to Jesus where sin is condemned on the cross. So once sin has been defeated on the cross, this use of Torah by God - to make Israel the place where the sin of the world is concentrated - has come to an end.

drew
Aug 9th 2008, 02:51 AM
keep in mind that when Paul says the law he could be talking about two different things... the mosaic law that required ordinance and sacrifice, or the moral law of God that we are all supposed to keep and what Jesus was talking about in the sermon on the mount that he says that will be in effect even though heaven and earth pass away... kinda like Paul when he was talking about the flesh... either the sin nature or the body itself... so we need to establish what kind of law we are talking about here or else this discussion is dead....
I agree that there is this distinction you raise. As per my last post, I believe that the "ordinance and sacrifice" manifestation of Torah has indeed passed away. But I think we agree that the "deeper" sense of Torah still is in force - as you say when you refer to the Sermon on the mount.

drew
Aug 9th 2008, 03:01 AM
Its frustrating to read spirit filled christians still debating the law.
Well, to be fair, the status of the law is a complex issue. We have statements like this from Paul which seem to affirm the continued obligation to Torah:

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law

And then we have this from Ephesians 2, which speaks of the Torah's abolition:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

And also this mysterious text from Romans 9:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

Note the statement about the Jews not arriving at that Law in the way that the Gentiles obviously did - indicating that there indeed remains a sense in which Torah is still in force.

So the status of the Law is not an easy nut to crack. My conclusion is that the Torah in the form of the prescriptive rules and rituals is now abolished. But a deeper form of Torah remains in force. And it is best expressed by this famous interaction:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2022;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23910c)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

manichunter
Aug 9th 2008, 03:36 AM
Where in the law is our faith,with regards to the following?

Acts 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall
live in them.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits, I have a few questions.

1.How are we to be a living sacrifice for others?

2.How did Paul give himself as a drink offering for others?

3.What is the spiritual application of the drink offering and our sacrifice as a drink offering for others?

NO the Torah/teachings of God have not passed away, but translated to spirit, just as the circumcision. Both Grace and Torah existed before their record general manifestation. In my study, I have found out the word used for torah is not properly translated. We translated as law, when the Jews translated as teachings. We make it about rules and take it as an offense and threat to holy living and liberty. The Jews take them as parental instructions and see them as profitable for holy living and the means of liberation from carnality.

Noah knew God's grace and teachings. Abraham knew God's grace and teachings.

Ge 26:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+26:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Ge 6:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+6:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Ge 6:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+6:9&translation=amp&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (There is no disagreement here. However, change the word justified to sanctified and we will disagree)

We as believers have been sleep to long regarding the spiritual application of the Teachings of God.

Alaska
Aug 9th 2008, 04:19 AM
The law speaks of Jesus and it also speaks of the law of commandments, but it spoke of christ in the law before the law of commandments were given.


I think the "law of comandments" has to first be defined.
This is the context where the reference to the "law of commandments" is found:
Eph. 2:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul is speaking of what was broken down as our enemy.

An example of the enmity the law created is found in Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

Because of our fallen nature inherited by Adam, the law did us no good in a certain sense because while giving us knowledge of sin, it did not give us what we really needed, and that is a change of nature. This change of nature is fulfilled in Jesus, the last Adam, through the new birth. The claim of change only pertains to those who experience regeneration and change by the Holy Spirit in their lives to convict and genuinely transform them.

Rom. 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
"The redemption that is Christ Jesus" is written with regard to the regenerating changing power of transformation experienced by those truly walking in the Spirit.

The law gave knowledge but not what we really needed. The NT gives us a new husband. Our first husband, the law, that condemned us, has died. We are now married to a new husband who has taken the law to the cross with him and has been resurrected. His new covenant replacing the old, and us now serving in newness of spirit and not in the "oldness of the letter", even though all of the moral absolutes from the OT are also required under the NT. The 'oldness of the letter' is with regard to when we did not have the new changed heart and nature now experienced by those in Christ.

Rom. 7:
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law was weak because of our flesh-unregenerated nature, hence when we were under the law (meaning when we were without Christ) a principle existed: the activity or motion of sin that existed in that unregenerated state:

Rom. 7:
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul uses an example in Rom. 7:7 above, from one of the ten commandments, thou shalt not covet, to illustrate this principle of being under the law and having the activity or motions of sins law dominate our behaviour. Paul found "a law" in verse 21 above. This is a principle. Jesus came to destroy principalities and powers. He came to destroy the domination of sin in our lives, which was his purpose of coming:
1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So I believe the following verses, concerning what Jesus came to destroy; that which was our enemy and that kept both Jew and Gentile from having access into fellowship with God, was the sin nature. "The law of commandments contained in ordinances" was the principle of the tendency of the flesh to sin in spite of having laws showing us what was right and wrong.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

His death was to accomplish a death of our old sin nature, a death of that law or principle reflected in what Paul wrote in Rom. 7:

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


Because of Christ's death and resurrection, we have been given access into redemptive grace so that we can die to our old self and rise in newness of nature:

2 Pet. 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Firstfruits
Aug 9th 2008, 10:44 AM
And also from Luke we have these words from Jesus:

(Luke 24:44-49 KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. {45} Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, {46} And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: {47} And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. {48} And ye are witnesses of these things. {49} And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


The prophetic scripture is about the hope in the coming of Christ, and this hope is what established their faith. The law kept them shut up in faith and sanctified until the time of the promise arrived. The law was not of faith, rather it was for holiness. Faith rather has always been born of hope - even way back in the garden. When Adam was told how a redeemer was coming to overturn sin and death and that thru the birth of children this hope would overcome the penalty of death that had come upon him. The birth of children is the first picture given of the resurrection hope of new life that is ongoing.

Thanks Mograce2U,

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 9th 2008, 10:58 AM
Firstfruits, I have a few questions.

1.How are we to be a living sacrifice for others?

2.How did Paul give himself as a drink offering for others?

3.What is the spiritual application of the drink offering and our sacrifice as a drink offering for others?

NO the Torah/teachings of God have not passed away, but translated to spirit, just as the circumcision. Both Grace and Torah existed before their record general manifestation. In my study, I have found out the word used for torah is not properly translated. We translated as law, when the Jews translated as teachings. We make it about rules and take it as an offense and threat to holy living and liberty. The Jews take them as parental instructions and see them as profitable for holy living and the means of liberation from carnality.

Noah knew God's grace and teachings. Abraham knew God's grace and teachings.

Ge 26:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+26:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Ge 6:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+6:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Ge 6:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+6:9&translation=amp&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.

Gal 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (There is no disagreement here. However, change the word justified to sanctified and we will disagree)

We as believers have been sleep to long regarding the spiritual application of the Teachings of God.

A living sacrifice;
Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Not sure where you find Paul giving himself as a drink offering, however I know that Jesus is what is offered, so if we follow Paul then we are partakers of that same drink of Christ.
1 Cor 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Hope that answers your questions.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 9th 2008, 11:00 AM
It is through the promise of God through Christ, who fufilled the law perfectly and gives us the opportunity to receive grace through repentance and faith. The law shows us our need for a Savior and brings about repentance, paving the way to grace should we answer the door when He knocks at our heart.

Again is it the scriptures that you are referring to that Jesus fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 9th 2008, 11:06 AM
If the Torah leads us to the cross, then where in the Torah are the following?

Jesus,

The cross,

Salvation,

Of all 113 commandments in the Torah which of them are concerning Jesus?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 28:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

timmyb
Aug 9th 2008, 09:28 PM
We just need to figure out what Paul is talking about when he's talking about the law.. because our inner man delights in the law according to Romans 7... Paul does make it clear what law he is talking about when he talks.. in the same manner when he's talking about the flesh...

Mograce2U
Aug 9th 2008, 10:46 PM
We just need to figure out what Paul is talking about when he's talking about the law.. because our inner man delights in the law according to Romans 7... Paul does make it clear what law he is talking about when he talks.. in the same manner when he's talking about the flesh...David seems to have all of Torah in view here:

(Psa 119:9-16 KJV) BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

{10} With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

{11} Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

{12} Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

{13} With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

{14} I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

{15} I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

{16} I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Emanate
Aug 10th 2008, 12:55 AM
Firstfruits
I think I finally see the question. My suggestion would be to study the Passover story and subsequent references in Torah

Firstfruits
Aug 10th 2008, 09:51 AM
Firstfruits
I think I finally see the question. My suggestion would be to study the Passover story and subsequent references in Torah

Thanks Emanate,

When you say Torah I take it you mean the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi which contain both scriptures that concern Jesus and also the law of commandments?

would you agree from what is written that the apostles were concerned with those scriptures referring to Jesus?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 28:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Aug 10th 2008, 02:03 PM
to study the Jewish feasts is amazing and there is so much revelation to be found in them... I say do it... there is more than what meets the eye in the Jewish feasts

Firstfruits
Aug 10th 2008, 03:55 PM
to study the Jewish feasts is amazing and there is so much revelation to be found in them... I say do it... there is more than what meets the eye in the Jewish feasts

May I ask how the feasts apply to what is written in the law that Jesus would fulfil and what was witnessed that Jesus did fulfil?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

With regards to what Jesus fulfilled, how are the feasts concerned with what he came to fulfil and did fulfil?

Jn 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jesus finished his work, yet the feasts in the law continue. So what in the law are we concerned with?

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Aug 10th 2008, 04:10 PM
Again is it the scriptures that you are referring to that Jesus fulfilled?

Firstfruits

Yes, and all parts and portions of the Law.

The law is good as Paul said because it exposes our sin. The law could never save. It only showed us the way to salvation. Once it brings us to grace, it's work is done. How can that not be good?

ananias
Aug 10th 2008, 04:58 PM
On the Day of Pentecost, Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai. It was written by the finger of God on Tablets of stone.

On the day of Pentecost, the Law was written by the Holy Spirit in human hearts:

"... but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says the LORD, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer.31: 33).

But the people of God could not obey the Law through human endavor before Christ shed His blood for the forgivenss of sin (which is the transgression of the Law); and neither can we now.

Who fulfills the Law now? (Yes- the fulfillmenet of the Law is an ongoing thing).

It's our Savior who fulfills the Law now:

"I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (Joh.15: 5).

We can't obey the Law - the Holy Spirit of Christ who dwells in us obeys the Law:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find. For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.... Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom.7: 18-25).

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish the Law." (Rom.3: 31).

WHAT LAW?

The 10 commandments (Moral Law) were written with the finger of God on tablets of stone and placed inside the ark of the Covenant.

The Ceremonial Law (temple system with its sacrifices and offerings for sins, ceremonial washings, clean and unlcealn foods, etc) were written by Moses on a scroll and placed in the side of the ark of the Covenant.

It's true that the ceremonial Law also contained the system of Feasts and appointed days - and it's true that those appointed days were/are prophetic of the coming of the Mesiah - which means both His FIRST and SECOND coming (the Feasts teach us about His second coming also).

But if we must now observe the (Ceremonial) Law in one aspect (clean and unclean foods, obervance of the Feasts, etc), then we must observe the Ceremonial Law in all its aspects - and we'll have to rebuild a temple to reinstiute sacrifices and offerings for sin! (which would be an abomnation - a gross insult to the Spirit of grace).

Clean and unclean foods pointed to the fact that God did not want His people intermarrying with Gentiles (unbelievers) - Acts 10: 11-15 - Peter was on his way to a Gentile named Cornelius, and God did not want Peter's prejudice against the Gentiles interfering with His gospel. He was saying to Peter: "What God has made clean, you do not call common." (Act.10: 15).

The Ceremonial Law is gone forever - but whatever is written in the Law and the prophets is nevertheless still good for our instruction and our teaching - and the Ceremonial Law regarding the Feasts still teaches us about the first and second coming of Messiah - but that doesn't mean we must now observe the ceremonial Law (unless we do so freely, the way we celebrate the man-made feasts of Christmas and Easter to remember Christ in our hearts).

If we legalistically start celebrating the Feasts, keeping sabbath on Saturday (legalistically, instead of by free choice), getting circumcised in the flesh or anything else, we have fallen from grace.

ananias.

Firstfruits
Aug 10th 2008, 06:26 PM
Yes, and all parts and portions of the Law.

The law is good as Paul said because it exposes our sin. The law could never save. It only showed us the way to salvation. Once it brings us to grace, it's work is done. How can that not be good?

Because of the following scripture, knowning that the law was not made for a righteous man, as is Jesus, how does the law, unless you mean the scriptures which refer to Christ, apply to Christ with regards to what Jesus commanded the apostles to preach concerning himself?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Thanks, God bless

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 10th 2008, 06:34 PM
Lev 23:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) These are The feasts of The LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto The LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
38 Beside the Sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

Where are the things spoken of Jesus that he came to fulfil and did fulfil?

Firstfruits

ananias
Aug 10th 2008, 08:15 PM
Lev 23:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) These are The feasts of The LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto The LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
38 Beside the Sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

Where are the things spoken of Jesus that he came to fulfil and did fulfil?

Firstfruits

The Passover Feast was fulfilled by Jesus - He was the Lamb of God who was slain for our sins. Leaven is a symbol for sin. The Lord was without sin. The 7-day Feast of Unleavened Bread begins the day following Passover-day. The first day after the day following the Passover day that the Lord was crucified, was the Feast of Firstfruits - Jesus is the Firstfruits of the resurrection, and He rose from the dead on that day.

Pentecost I explained in an earlier post - it represents God's Kingdom come and God's Kingdom to come (Joel 2: 28-32).

If you read my post at http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133051 ("How prophetic was the life of Joseph?") you will begin to understand the meaning of the fall Feasts.

I could provide you with a link which goes into greater detail regarding the deeper spiritual meaning and prophetic significance of the Feasts, but I'll have to first ask permission first from the moderators of the board if this link is acceptable to the board.

ananias.

Servant89
Aug 10th 2008, 09:39 PM
Greetings to all.

<<Jesus finished his work, yet the feasts in the law continue. So what in the law are we concerned with?>>

The feast of passover does not continue as told by God, not even in the Jewish community, for the passover lamb has to be sacrificed in the Jewish Temple and there is none at this time. They use a bone to represent the lamb instead. The feasts do not continue in the Christian church, they are a type and a shadow of the true resume of Jesus Christ. Their purpose is to point to Christ as the redeemer, as the Christ.

Jesus nailed the 613 commandments to the cross, and incorporated two new commandments (love your neighbor and love God), on those two hang all the law, all 613 commandments, so now we do the right thing because we feel like doing it, being motivated by love, from the inside instead of by fear (of the consequences of breaking the law), instead of from the outside. This is better described in 2 Cor 3:1-14.

Shalom

Merton
Aug 10th 2008, 11:35 PM
Hi,

A Christian man is driving past his neighbours farm and sees his animal has escaped through an open gate onto the road side.

He is a bit busy that day and in a hurry so he hopes that his neighbour or someone else will see that and put the animal back and shut the gate/ or he thinks it is just none of his business as is often the case to think.

He is reading his Bible one day and comes upon the scripture in the law--

Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.



Now the questions are-

1.How is the law done away, and irrelevent to the Christian today.

2. How is the complete law already written on the heart of the believer by the Spirit at his conversion, when Christians still sin, until they cease.

Then we have the example given by Paul of the application of the law of the OT to the law of Christ in 1 cor.ch 9.

Should parents teach their children not to steal, not to lie etc. Well that is law you need to realize.

The ten commandments should be taught in all society.

It does not have to be taught that men will receive forgiveness by it, or receive eternal life by keeping it, but to keep breaking them will see them in hell in the finish.

As for the feast days, there is a continued fulfilling of them in regard to their applications to the believers, not as under the law covenant, but under the new covenant.

and-

The abolishment of the handwriting against us through Christs death, is not the doing away of Gods law.

Paul, in Romans ch 7 explains that he was breaking the law of coveting, before he was delivered from it.


Mat 19:16 And, behold, coming near, one said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God! But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He said to Him, Which? And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder, nor commit adultery, nor steal, nor bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 honor your father and your mother," and, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Ex. 20:12-16; Lev. 19:18; Deut. 5:16-20
Mat 19:20 The young man said to Him, All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, If you desire to be perfect, go sell your property and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me.
Mat 19:22 But having heard the Word, being grieved, the young man went away, for he had many possessions.
Mat 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 And His disciples were exceedingly astonished when they heard this, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But having looked at them, Jesus said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Merton.

Alaska
Aug 11th 2008, 02:29 AM
The abolishment of the handwriting against us through Christs death, is not the doing away of Gods law.



It is the doing away of it as it stood; weak with no provided mechanism for changing the heart. Read 2 Cor. 3. Was it not the ten that were put on stone? Yet reference to that which was glorious yet with no glory when compared to what was placed in the heart is said to have been abolished.
It is abolished as it stood in its entirety including the ceremonial and laws that were only temporarily imposed (such as allowing divorce) until the reformer came and that is Jesus.
The New changed law, though having some of the identical things as were in the old, comes dressed in the new man, the resurrected-from-the-dead-man, because Christ died making possible the regenerated "resurrected' believer in Christ. Complete with a new law.
New wine in new skins.

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 09:09 AM
Knowing that the Feasts are ordinances contained in Mosaic law given by God, with regards to the following scriptures, are we or are we not free from the feasts/ordinances?

Eph 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,


Heb 9:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

What are the ordinances we have been given to remember?
1 Cor 11:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

threebigrocks
Aug 11th 2008, 12:47 PM
Because of the following scripture, knowning that the law was not made for a righteous man, as is Jesus, how does the law, unless you mean the scriptures which refer to Christ, apply to Christ with regards to what Jesus commanded the apostles to preach concerning himself?

1 Tim 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Thanks, God bless

Firstfruits


Okay, I think we are coming at this from two differents ends of things, hence being stuck on this.

I agree fully with 1 Timothy as you posted here. The law, all of it no matter what we choose to call it, it for the ungodly and sinners. Once we are in Christ and under grace we aren't ungodly or sinners (living a chosen sinful life without Him) any longer. Until we are under grace, we are under law.


Knowing that the Feasts are ordinances contained in Mosaic law given by God, with regards to the following scriptures, are we or are we not free from the feasts/ordinances?

Eph 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,


Heb 9:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

What are the ordinances we have been given to remember?
1 Cor 11:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

I think this post you made is in the same line of thinking as my comments above. :)

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 02:09 PM
Okay, I think we are coming at this from two differents ends of things, hence being stuck on this.

I agree fully with 1 Timothy as you posted here. The law, all of it no matter what we choose to call it, it for the ungodly and sinners. Once we are in Christ and under grace we aren't ungodly or sinners (living a chosen sinful life without Him) any longer. Until we are under grace, we are under law.



I think this post you made is in the same line of thinking as my comments above. :)

Thank you Threebigrocks,

Yes I believe we are on the same page here.

God bless you,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 02:19 PM
Other than that which is written in the law concerning Jesus, according to the following, can grace and law co-exist?

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Aug 11th 2008, 04:16 PM
Other than that which is written in the law concerning Jesus, according to the following, can grace and law co-exist?

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

FirstfruitsThe analogy that scripture gives us is that death is what releases one from being under the law which is for the flesh. But grace continues forever for the resurrected. Jesus, alive from the dead is not ministering thru the law to His Church, but thru grace. Because He has taken away our sin, He is not serving us any longer for our sin (as High Priest), but is dealing with us thru mercy and forgiveness. Those who have been born again while in their flesh share in this new position of being resurrected with the Lord as though we were already in heaven with Him.

The law is for those who are still dead in their sins to convert their souls. Once that soul has been converted, grace and mercy are what is given. Which is why we can come boldly before the throne of His grace to receive mercy and help in our times of need. We needn't approach Him thru the burden of the law because He stands ready to hear and answer our cries. His blood covers and consecrates us until our transformation comes and we face no wrath as we approach Him.

This is not true for those under law who need to be sanctified in their flesh lest they receive wrath instead. The word of God keeps us sanctified and holy as we stand before Him in His heavenly presence and glory. Neither our earthly flesh nor our sin is a barrier if we come in repentance with thanksgiving & praise for His mercy.

manichunter
Aug 11th 2008, 04:56 PM
In our doing of the principles manifested in the teachings of God.

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 06:55 PM
In our doing of the principles manifested in the teachings of God.

What are the ordinances we have been given to obey?

1 Cor 11:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you

2 Thess 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thess 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1 Pet 1:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Aug 11th 2008, 07:08 PM
Here's the one from the OT which I like best:

(Micah 6:8 KJV) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 07:11 PM
Here's the one from the OT which I like best:

(Micah 6:8 KJV) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Thanks Mograce2U,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 07:21 PM
Acts 21:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

God bless,

Firstfruits