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itsafreegift
Aug 10th 2008, 12:53 AM
Once an individual has been given over to a reprobate mind, is there any hope of salvation for them? What are your thoughts?

calidog
Aug 10th 2008, 01:20 AM
We don't know at what point God has given up on an individual, though we might suspect it. Probably a good thing since many of us were obviously lost to the point that others may have given up but God did'nt.

DeadToSelf
Aug 10th 2008, 01:32 AM
"18 Behild, MY Servant whom I have chosen; MY BELOVED in whim MY Soul is well-pleased; I will put MY SPIRIT upon HIM, and HE shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles. 19 HE will not quarrel, nor cry out; nor will anyone hear HIS voice in the streets. 20 A battered reed HE will not break off, and a smoldering wick HE will not put out, until HE leads justice to victory. 21 And in HIS name the Gentiles will hope."
Matthew 12:18-21

itsafreegift
Aug 10th 2008, 02:29 AM
Were the people referred to in Romans 1:28 (those that God had given over to a reprobate mind) saved or lost?

If they were saved, then what does this mean for them?
If they were lost, does this mean that there is no more hope for their salvation?

I'm trying to study this out thoroughly. Any input is appreciated.

Firefighter
Aug 10th 2008, 02:45 AM
He is speaking of those prior to salvation.... Yes they can be saved.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins...

itsafreegift
Aug 10th 2008, 02:53 AM
He is speaking of those prior to salvation.... Yes they can be saved.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins...
Then being given over to a reprobate mind has no eternal consequences?

In the verses prior to Romans 1:28, it says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God." If these were not saved, what does it mean to say that they "knew God"?

ariel_jesus237
Aug 10th 2008, 02:55 AM
Then being given over to a reprobate mind has no eternal consequences?

In the verses prior to Romans 1:28, it says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God." If these were not saved, what does it mean to say that they "knew God"?
well it could possibly be they knew of God or about God, but did not know Him and have the personal relationship truly saved Christians have. The name Jesus is internationally known, yet do people know Jesus?

itsafreegift
Aug 10th 2008, 03:03 AM
well it could possibly be they knew of God or about God, but did not know Him and have the personal relationship truly saved Christians have. The name Jesus is internationally known, yet do people know Jesus?

The word "knew" in Romans 1:21 in the greek means to "recognize" and "understand". It's the same word used to describe a intimate relationship with sexual conotations.

So if they recognized and understood God, it sounds to me as if their knowledge of him was much more than just hearing about Him.

calidog
Aug 10th 2008, 04:57 AM
In the verses prior to Romans 1:28, it says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God." If these were not saved, what does it mean to say that they "knew God"?I interpret this to mean that all of us at some point know God is, and that some of us recieve that knowledge and come to Him and some of us do not recieve Him eventhough we knew Him:

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who have rejected the knowledge of God are liars and they have grown in that lie; they begin to believe that lie (God gives them over to their deception).

Pretty harsh, but that is the way I read it.

itsafreegift
Aug 11th 2008, 01:50 AM
Ok, let me get a little more to the point. Can a person whom God has given over to a reprobate mind still be saved???

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 01:54 AM
No... there is not. The word in the Greek there means that they have been rejected... cast away. If you look up the 1856 (somewhere in there) Webster definition... you will find that he actually had the courage to say it. These are folks that are "beyond salvation." Not popular now days... but he was spot on.

itsafreegift
Aug 11th 2008, 02:07 AM
No... there is not. The word in the Greek there means that they have been rejected... cast away. If you look up the 1856 (somewhere in there) Webster definition... you will find that he actually had the courage to say it. These are folks that are "beyond salvation." Not popular now days... but he was spot on.

Thank you for your input. Now I'll ask you the same question that never was answered earlier. If these are folks beyond salvation, then what does it mean in the previous verses when it says they "knew" God. As I already established earlier, the word "knew" means that they recognized and understood the Lord. THis is obviously more than just hearing about the Lord, or just knowing of Him. It's the same word used to describe sexual intimacy in the Bible. What do you think this means?

I hope I'm not coming off as arguementative. That's not my desire. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of this situation because I want to share it with others. I do appreciate all who have commented thusfar. God bless you.

Firefighter
Aug 11th 2008, 02:14 AM
Read the verses preceeding that one...

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No one except one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is beyond salvation. I disagree with Peter on this one, however I DO believe it is highly improbable that they will reach repentence, but the possibility is still there. Otherwise it would be directly against His will. "It is not God's will that any should perish..."

Again, possible to be saved, YES. Probable, NO.

(Of course we may be using different doors again...)

itsafreegift
Aug 11th 2008, 02:21 AM
Read the verses preceeding that one...

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No one except one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is beyond salvation. I disagree with Peter on this one, however I DO believe it is highly improbable that they will reach repentence, but the possibility is still there. Otherwise it would be directly against His will. "It is not God's will that any should perish..."

Again, possible to be saved, YES. Probable, NO.

(Of course we may be using different doors again...)

Verse 21 says they knew God, I established above what that means. With that being stated, were these people saved before God gave them over to a reprobate mind?

calidog
Aug 11th 2008, 02:29 AM
It sounds like every one at some point knows God and some deny this knowledge. Difficult to swollow I admit, but it seems that this is what is being said.

I would say that they were not saved, yet knew God.

I kinda get this impression from some posters in CA that they have knowledge of God, which according to scripture God has revealed Himself to them.

itsafreegift
Aug 11th 2008, 02:33 AM
It sounds like every one at some point knows God and some deny this knowledge. Difficult to swollow I admit, but it seems that this is what is being said.

I would say that they were not saved, yet knew God.

I appreciate your input my friend. I guess I'm just struggling with how can someone "know" God in an intimate way as the meaning of the word "knew" implies in verse 21, and NOT be saved. I don't understand how one can know God intimately, understand, and recognize who God is, and NOT be saved. It boggles my mind.

calidog
Aug 11th 2008, 02:36 AM
I appreciate your input my friend. I guess I'm just struggling with how can someone "know" God in an intimate way as the meaning of the word "knew" implies in verse 21, and NOT be saved. I don't understand how one can know God intimately, understand, and recognize who God is, and NOT be saved. It boggles my mind.Perhaps they even prayed to God. It sounds that way.
It's a very powerful portion of scripture, I would think it would elicit a wake up call to many in denial.
Certainly many of the saved have lived in this denial before coming to Christ.

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:10 PM
Thank you for your input. Now I'll ask you the same question that never was answered earlier. If these are folks beyond salvation, then what does it mean in the previous verses when it says they "knew" God. As I already established earlier, the word "knew" means that they recognized and understood the Lord. THis is obviously more than just hearing about the Lord, or just knowing of Him. It's the same word used to describe sexual intimacy in the Bible. What do you think this means?

I hope I'm not coming off as arguementative. That's not my desire. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of this situation because I want to share it with others. I do appreciate all who have commented thusfar. God bless you.
You aren't coming across badly at all! Yeah sure... basically it means social intercourse which is what separates it from a sexual "know" but still it is important in understanding. When you ask what it means... I suppose I can only say this. It means what it says. Doctrinal difference that all of us may have... doesn't change that fact. Some folks might explain it this way while I might explain it another. But in the end... it means they knew God and yet they ultimately refused to recognize Him as God. He gave them up to various things and ultimately over to a reprobate mind and at that time... they're done.

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:13 PM
Read the verses preceeding that one...

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No one except one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit is beyond salvation. I disagree with Peter on this one, however I DO believe it is highly improbable that they will reach repentence, but the possibility is still there. Otherwise it would be directly against His will. "It is not God's will that any should perish..."

Again, possible to be saved, YES. Probable, NO.

(Of course we may be using different doors again...)
Check out the Greek there. Cast away, rejected. Gotta figure that's not a good thing. When God does that... it tends to be a done deal. ;)

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:15 PM
Verse 21 says they knew God, I established above what that means. With that being stated, were these people saved before God gave them over to a reprobate mind?
This is where I would say... probably not. I don't think that this is who Paul is speaking of in this passage. They knew God and everyone does (hence why no man will have an excuse). But saved... I can't see that in the text at all.

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:16 PM
It sounds like every one at some point knows God and some deny this knowledge. Difficult to swollow I admit, but it seems that this is what is being said.

I would say that they were not saved, yet knew God.

I kinda get this impression from some posters in CA that they have knowledge of God, which according to scripture God has revealed Himself to them.
Exactly and I totally agree.

ProjectPeter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:18 PM
Perhaps they even prayed to God. It sounds that way.
It's a very powerful portion of scripture, I would think it would elicit a wake up call to many in denial.
Certainly many of the saved have lived in this denial before coming to Christ.
This particular passage is one that had a MONSTER impact on my life once upon a time. So yeah... agree again.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 01:57 AM
Check out the Greek there. Cast away, rejected. Gotta figure that's not a good thing. When God does that... it tends to be a done deal. ;)

Thank you. Now we can get somewhere...;)

Let's look at that word for a minute...

παραδίδωμι
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one’s) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself

We aslo see it here in scripture...

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver (παραδίδωμι) this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.


But notice it say "that his spirit may be saved" even though he is to be "cast away and rejected"

We get a glimpse of his repentence in 2 Corinthians and have absolutely no reason to believe that he did not go on to endure...

2 Corinthians 2:6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.


We need to make sure we are not outwitted by Satan, especially concerning those we deem too far gone that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.


Check it out for yourself. It is the exact same usage in the Greek.:D

BroRog
Aug 12th 2008, 05:50 AM
In Paul's view, each and every person has been given over to a reprobate mind.

In his presentation, his goal for the first two chapters is to bring both Gentiles and Jews under the wrath of God, which is the problem. Then he will offer the solution to our problem, which is the Gospel.

The problem can be summarized as two related issues.

1. Prior to salvation, we are given over to darkness, foolishness, idolatry, and dishonorable passions. And being cut off from the source of life, we are destined to die in our sins.

2. In this condition, we do things that are damnable and worthy of condemnation.

The solution comes in three parts.

1. Jesus death on the cross brought reconciliation between God and man, and having been forgiven, we are free from judgment and condemnation.

2. God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, which is a metaphor set to describe our new "righteous subjectivity". (A term coined by John A. Crabtree to indicate the our new birth and indwelling Holy Spirit.) As we mature in Christ, the Spirit taking away the darkness from our hearts and our understanding as we grow in wisdom in the Lord.

3. Finally, in the next and final age, God will cause us to be able to never sin again, thus making it possible to always obey his will in everything.

The reprobate mind is just our natural condition as men and women prior to salvation.

ProjectPeter
Aug 12th 2008, 12:57 PM
Thank you. Now we can get somewhere...;)

Let's look at that word for a minute...

παραδίδωμι
paradidōmi
1) to give into the hands (of another)
2) to give over into (one’s) power or use
2a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage
2b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death
2c) to deliver up treacherously
2c1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken
2c2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded
3) to commit, to commend
4) to deliver verbally
4a) commands, rites
4b) to deliver by narrating, to report
5) to permit allow
5a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits
5b) gives itself up, presents itself

We aslo see it here in scripture...

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver (παραδίδωμι) this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.


But notice it say "that his spirit may be saved" even though he is to be "cast away and rejected"

We get a glimpse of his repentence in 2 Corinthians and have absolutely no reason to believe that he did not go on to endure...

2 Corinthians 2:6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.


We need to make sure we are not outwitted by Satan, especially concerning those we deem too far gone that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.


Check it out for yourself. It is the exact same usage in the Greek.:D

Actually I think you looked at the wrong Greek word. ;)

adokimos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally): -- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

ProjectPeter
Aug 12th 2008, 12:59 PM
In Paul's view, each and every person has been given over to a reprobate mind.

In his presentation, his goal for the first two chapters is to bring both Gentiles and Jews under the wrath of God, which is the problem. Then he will offer the solution to our problem, which is the Gospel.

The problem can be summarized as two related issues.

1. Prior to salvation, we are given over to darkness, foolishness, idolatry, and dishonorable passions. And being cut off from the source of life, we are destined to die in our sins.

2. In this condition, we do things that are damnable and worthy of condemnation.

The solution comes in three parts.

1. Jesus death on the cross brought reconciliation between God and man, and having been forgiven, we are free from judgment and condemnation.

2. God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, which is a metaphor set to describe our new "righteous subjectivity". (A term coined by John A. Crabtree to indicate the our new birth and indwelling Holy Spirit.) As we mature in Christ, the Spirit taking away the darkness from our hearts and our understanding as we grow in wisdom in the Lord.

3. Finally, in the next and final age, God will cause us to be able to never sin again, thus making it possible to always obey his will in everything.

The reprobate mind is just our natural condition as men and women prior to salvation.Not even sure how one can get that out of the text. He gave them up to two other things before their mind was reprobate.

Nothing in that text could closely be seen as folks all start out reprobate.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 01:06 PM
Actually I think you looked at the wrong Greek word. ;)

adokimos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally): -- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Now that greatly depends what text you read huh?;)

ProjectPeter
Aug 12th 2008, 02:08 PM
doesn't matter the text. The Greek is the same in all of them.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 02:30 PM
Really?!?! It seems to me that there are MANY variations in the text...

Rom 1:24 διο1352 CONJ παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S αυτους846 P-APM ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM εν1722 PREP ταις3588 T-DPF επιθυμιαις1939 N-DPF των3588 T-GPF καρδιων2588 N-GPF αυτων846 P-GPM εις1519 PREP ακαθαρσιαν167 N-ASF του3588 T-GSN ατιμαζεσθαι818 V-PEN τα3588 T-APN σωματα4983 N-APN αυτων846 P-GPM εν1722 PREP αυτοις846 P-DPM

But this one is the one I am referring to... (παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S)


We see it again right here...

1Co 5:5 παραδουναι3860 V-2AAN τον3588 T-ASM τοιουτον5108 D-ASM τω3588 T-DSM σατανα4567 N-DSM εις1519 PREP ολεθρον3639 N-ASM της3588 T-GSF σαρκος4561 N-GSF ινα2443 CONJ το3588 T-NSN πνευμα4151 N-NSN σωθη4982 V-APS-3S εν1722 PREP τη3588 T-DSF ημερα2250 N-DSF του3588 T-GSM κυριου2962 N-GSM

Same exact word... paradidōmi.

Are you saying that there is something else about the text that changes the meaning in this case? Help me to understand where you are coming from...

BroRog
Aug 12th 2008, 02:30 PM
Not even sure how one can get that out of the text. He gave them up to two other things before their mind was reprobate.

Nothing in that text could closely be seen as folks all start out reprobate.

Paul's purpose for the first three chapters is to bring both Gentiles and Jews under the wrath of God, which is the bad news. Beginning in the forth chapter, he will preach the goodnews.

Toward the middle of chapter 3, just has he is about to conclude the bad news, he writes,

What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin . . .

This is his concluding remark. Chapter one brings Gentiles under sin. Chapter two and three bring Jews under sin.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 02:34 PM
Correct Bro Rog.

Paul starts of Romans by declaring that all are under sin. This becomes blatanly obvious in Romans 3:23. For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God...

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 02:43 PM
Where are you looking? Help me out here, I must be missing something.

Wescott and Hort (Majority Text)
Rom 1:24 διο1352 CONJ παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S αυτους846 P-APM ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM εν1722 PREP ταις3588 T-DPF επιθυμιαις1939 N-DPF των3588 T-GPF καρδιων2588 N-GPF αυτων846 P-GPM εις1519 PREP ακαθαρσιαν167 N-ASF του3588 T-GSN ατιμαζεσθαι818 V-PEN τα3588 T-APN σωματα4983 N-APN αυτων846 P-GPM εν1722 PREP αυτοις846 P-DPM


Schrivner's Greek NT (Textus Receptus)
Rom 1:24 διο TSBκαι παρεδωκεν αυτους ο θεος εν ταις επιθυμιαις των καρδιων αυτων εις ακαθαρσιαν του ατιμαζεσθαι τα σωματα αυτων εν Aαυτοις TSBεαυτοις

Robinson's Greek NT (Byzantine Text)
Rom 1:24 Διὸ καὶ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ Θεὸς ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ ἀτιμάζεσθαι τὰ σώματα αὐτῶν ἐν αὐτοῖς,

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:06 PM
Oh! I see. You are speaking of Romans 1:28 and I am talking about Romans 1:24...

Romans 1:28 is describing the same act as Romans 1:24 and verse 28 does not rule out verse 24 any more than verse 24 can rule out verse 28.

Another 10 post doctrinal debate avoided...:lol:

ProjectPeter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:07 PM
What is the word for reprobate?

ProjectPeter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:08 PM
Paul's purpose for the first three chapters is to bring both Gentiles and Jews under the wrath of God, which is the bad news. Beginning in the forth chapter, he will preach the goodnews.

Toward the middle of chapter 3, just has he is about to conclude the bad news, he writes,

What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin . . .

This is his concluding remark. Chapter one brings Gentiles under sin. Chapter two and three bring Jews under sin.
Point is still the same. Reprobate means what?

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:20 PM
OK. Notice that thier MIND is reprobate, not thier SOUL.

Romans 1:22-28 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Paul is referring tothe mind, NOT the soul. "Even so it is NOT the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." I believe that would include those whose MINDS have been rejected.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:23 PM
Point is still the same. Reprobate means what?

Is vs. 24 and vs. 28 not speaking of the same event?

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 03:53 PM
Once an individual has been given over to a reprobate mind, is there any hope of salvation for them? What are your thoughts?I tend to think not. Romans 1 has been discussed at length already, but then there is this passage, too.

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It would be hard to argue that these people who rejected the truth that could have saved them ever would be saved once God sends "them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". Notice it then says "that they all might be damned who believed not the truth". Seems to me that once God gives them over to their "unrighteousness", it's over for them. This doesn't mean that God wasn't patient with them and didn't give them plenty of chances to repent before He gives them over. But once He does, it appears that they are damned at that point.

Now, why would God do this to people before they're dead? Well, God knows how many chances He gives people to repent. I do believe that while God is very patient and longsuffering, there can come a time even before someone has died that He says, "Enough is enough" and He gives them over to the "unrighteousness" that they take so much pleasure in rather than in God and His righteousness.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:58 PM
Ummmm... That scripture is talking about those that reject God for the anti-Christ. Depending on your eschatology, this would be during the tribulation... Invalid argument.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 04:05 PM
Ummmm... That scripture is talking about those that reject God for the anti-Christ. Depending on your eschatology, this would be during the tribulation... Invalid argument.Why would it be invalid? Whether people reject God for the supposed future anti-Christ or for something else, what difference does that make?

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 04:14 PM
Look at the verses before it...

2Th 2:7-9 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

The Holy Spirit will be removed, and then it will be impossible after someone rejects God for the anti-Christ. Last time I checked the Holy Spirit is still around.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 04:42 PM
Look at the verses before it...

2Th 2:7-9 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

The Holy Spirit will be removed, and then it will be impossible after someone rejects God for the anti-Christ. Last time I checked the Holy Spirit is still around.The Holy Spirit will not be removed. That is ridiculous. But you're getting off topic here. There is no reason to think that 2 Thess 2 is not valid when it comes to understanding what being reprobate means.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 04:55 PM
Who is "He" then?

BroRog
Aug 12th 2008, 05:11 PM
Point is still the same. Reprobate means what?

The Greek word behind the English word Reprobate is a play on the word "worthy". It literally means, "a mind not worthy of being called a mind." :)

The complete thought goes something like this.

Since they did not deem God worthy of thinking about, he gave them over to a mind not worthy of being called a mind. (My expanded paraphrase of Romans 1:28)

This resonates with his earlier statements:

they became futile in their speculations . . .

their foolish heart was darkened . . .

they exchanged the truth of God for a lie . . .

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 05:21 PM
Vincent agrees...



This form of play upon words of similar sound is perhaps the most frequent of Paul's rhetorical figures, often consisting in the change of preposition in a compound, or in the addition of a preposition to the simple verb.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 06:36 PM
Who is "He" then?I'll answer this, but remember that this is off topic. It would be better if you started a new thread on the ETC forum about this if you want other opinions on this as well.

Here is the KJV:

2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Now, if you really think about it, this verse is translated very poorly. I hate to rag on the KJV translators like that because I like the KJV, but sometimes (rarely) they really did a poor job.

The reason I say that is very simple and once I explain what I mean I don't doubt you'll agree with me. Whatever withholdeth is referred to as both a "what" and a "he"? Huh? See what I mean? That makes no sense. So, is it a "what" or a "he"?

Here is the verse from the YLT:

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,

So, from this translation, it seems to be saying that it is a "what" that keeps down or "withholdeth" and it is the man of sin that will be revealed in his own time. Whatever it is that withholdeth (keeps down, restrains) does so until it's time for the man of sin to be revealed.

I lean towards believing it is the influence of the Holy Spirit that restrains the man of sin. So, the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that leads people to repentance will be taken away at that time and people will just be given over to their wickedness, which is exactly what 2 Thess 2:9-12 talks about. But the Holy Spirit Himself will not be taken away. He will still be indwelt in believers and will still indwell anyone who repents and puts their faith in Christ from that point on.

So as not to derail this thread, I have to ask that only Urban Missionary respond to this post.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 08:21 PM
While I can certainly see where you are coming from, I respectfully disagree. We are obviously coming from two vastly different views of eschatology and you are correct, that is far from the perview of this thread. This is a great example of how eschatology affects other areas of our theology.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point and move on, otherwise we will get into covenants, ages and dispensations...;)

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 09:34 PM
While I can certainly see where you are coming from, I respectfully disagree.And, of course, that is not surprising to me. I respect that you "respectfully disagree", though. ;)


We are obviously coming from two vastly different views of eschatology and you are correct, that is far from the perview of this thread. This is a great example of how eschatology affects other areas of our theology.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point and move on, otherwise we will get into covenants, ages and dispensations...;)Yes, and that is beyond the scope of this thread. But if you'd like to talk about those things, you can always start a new thread.

ProjectPeter
Aug 13th 2008, 04:00 PM
Really?!?! It seems to me that there are MANY variations in the text...

Rom 1:24 διο1352 CONJ παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S αυτους846 P-APM ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM εν1722 PREP ταις3588 T-DPF επιθυμιαις1939 N-DPF των3588 T-GPF καρδιων2588 N-GPF αυτων846 P-GPM εις1519 PREP ακαθαρσιαν167 N-ASF του3588 T-GSN ατιμαζεσθαι818 V-PEN τα3588 T-APN σωματα4983 N-APN αυτων846 P-GPM εν1722 PREP αυτοις846 P-DPM

But this one is the one I am referring to... (παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S)


We see it again right here...

1Co 5:5 παραδουναι3860 V-2AAN τον3588 T-ASM τοιουτον5108 D-ASM τω3588 T-DSM σατανα4567 N-DSM εις1519 PREP ολεθρον3639 N-ASM της3588 T-GSF σαρκος4561 N-GSF ινα2443 CONJ το3588 T-NSN πνευμα4151 N-NSN σωθη4982 V-APS-3S εν1722 PREP τη3588 T-DSF ημερα2250 N-DSF του3588 T-GSM κυριου2962 N-GSM

Same exact word... paradidōmi.

Are you saying that there is something else about the text that changes the meaning in this case? Help me to understand where you are coming from...

I think we're talking different verses. I am speaking of Romans 1... where are you at?

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 02:12 AM
I was in Romans 1:24, you are in Romans 1:28. They are referring to the same event... please see previous post about the NOT being mutually exclusive.

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 02:30 AM
Were the people referred to in Romans 1:28 (those that God had given over to a reprobate mind) saved or lost?

If they were saved, then what does this mean for them?
If they were lost, does this mean that there is no more hope for their salvation?

I'm trying to study this out thoroughly. Any input is appreciated.

No they were not saved!

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 02:34 AM
Then being given over to a reprobate mind has no eternal consequences?

In the verses prior to Romans 1:28, it says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God." If these were not saved, what does it mean to say that they "knew God"?

They knew God, they did not know the Son.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 02:36 AM
Ok, let me get a little more to the point. Can a person whom God has given over to a reprobate mind still be saved???

They were never saved.

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 02:39 AM
Thank you for your input. Now I'll ask you the same question that never was answered earlier. If these are folks beyond salvation, then what does it mean in the previous verses when it says they "knew" God. As I already established earlier, the word "knew" means that they recognized and understood the Lord. THis is obviously more than just hearing about the Lord, or just knowing of Him. It's the same word used to describe sexual intimacy in the Bible. What do you think this means?

I hope I'm not coming off as arguementative. That's not my desire. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of this situation because I want to share it with others. I do appreciate all who have commented thusfar. God bless you.

They knew God, as the Creator through creation and conscience. But they did not know, and could not know Christ. Creation reveals undeniable truth that God exists, but creation does not show us the Saviour.

ProjectPeter
Aug 14th 2008, 11:24 AM
I was in Romans 1:24, you are in Romans 1:28. They are referring to the same event... please see previous post about the NOT being mutually exclusive.
I read it. Again though... the word Adokimos is pretty hard core. While God is giving them over to the various things there is that chance for them to be saved. You'd never hear otherwise from me and that's exactly what Paul was saying about the man that was sleeping with his fathers wife. Give him over to the devil for the destruction of his flesh. That's what God is doing in those first instances in Romans 1. But that 28th verse... that word is much more harsh than just giving someone over to something. They are reprobate. Cast away. Rejected. You are taking the one word and trying to apply it to verse 28 but Paul doesn't use that word this time.

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 11:27 AM
But it is in fact the same event that both verses are discussing right? My only point is that verse 28 does not nullify verse 24, and like wise verse 24 can't nullify verse 28. We may be at a stalemate on this one...:D

ProjectPeter
Aug 14th 2008, 11:41 AM
But it is in fact the same event that both verses are discussing right? My only point is that verse 28 does not nullify verse 24, and like wise verse 24 can't nullify verse 28. We may be at a stalemate on this one...:D
It doesn't nullify it. It finalizes it if you will. God have them over to... then over to... then God gave them up. The word you showed earlier is exactly right. But it is different in verse 28. Much more firm... even final. God rejected them. Cast them away.

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 01:12 PM
It doesn't nullify it. It finalizes it if you will. God have them over to... then over to... then God gave them up. The word you showed earlier is exactly right. But it is different in verse 28. Much more firm... even final. God rejected them. Cast them away.


...gave them up - paradidomi autos paradidomi vs 24

...gave them over - paradidomi autos paradidomi vs 28

paradidomi:
from 3844 and 1325; to surrender, i.e yield up, intrust, transmit:--betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up), give (over, up), hazard, put in prison, recommend.

3844. para:
a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal (on account of):--above, against, among, at, before, by, contrary to, X friend, from, + give (such things as they), + that (she) had, X his, in, more than, nigh unto, (out) of, past, save, side...by, in the sight of, than, (there-)fore, with. In compounds it retains the same variety of application.

1325. didomi:
a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection):--adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

I don't see a difference? Enlighten me!

blessings,
RW

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 01:24 PM
What Greek text are you looking at Rog?

ProjectPeter
Aug 14th 2008, 02:00 PM
Romans 1:20 *For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

No one has an excuse. God has made Himself known to all men.

21 *For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Their hearts were DARKENED. Weren't always darkened. But because they did not honor Him as God or give thanks... instead they became futile in their speculations... their hearts were darkened.

22 *Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Weren't always fools. But professing to be wise... they BECAME fools. Didn't start out a fool.


23 *and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 *¶Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 *For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 *¶For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 *and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 *¶And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 *being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 *slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 *without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 *and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Now follow it... started out with idolatry (hopefully we can all at least agree there) and then God gave them over to these things. Insert your Greek here. But we cannot forget the use of the word reprobate. Adokimos.

Notice the result of the reprobate mind (the rejected/cast away). These are people without excuse. They could see God because God makes Himself known to all so that no one is without excuse.

Notice in that 32 verse. Not only did they know God but they knew the ordinances of God and knew these such things were worthy of death... yet they did it anyway and even give whole-hearted approval to those who do those things. They new it was wrong... yet were just fine with that. Their conscience was seered... hearts hardened. Much like perhaps the people of Egypt in the days of Moses. Certainly we can say that about Pharoah as Paul speaks of that later in his letter to the Romans.

In other words... their sin had run its course. God was done with Pharoah and was going to show Himself to Egypt in a mighty way. This is how sin runs it course with mankind. A good summary anyway .