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harrychess
Aug 10th 2008, 01:40 AM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Sold Out
Aug 10th 2008, 01:49 AM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

God made a promise to Abraham concerning the nation of Israel, and God would not be God if He broke His promise.


"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth." Genesis 12:2-3

The fact that Israel is now a nation after 2000 yrs is a testament to God's promise to them. I would suggest renting a series called "Against All Odds:Israel Survives". A reporter named Michael Greenspan did a 13 part documentary about the miracles surrounding the founding of the state of Israel and the success of the Jews. I rented it through Netflix.

harrychess
Aug 10th 2008, 01:57 AM
God made a promise to Abraham concerning the nation of Israel, and God would not be God if He broke His promise.


"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth." Genesis 12:2-3

The fact that Israel is now a nation after 2000 yrs is a testament to God's promise to them. I would suggest renting a series called "Against All Odds:Israel Survives". A reporter named Michael Greenspan did a 13 part documentary about the miracles surrounding the founding of the state of Israel and the success of the Jews. I rented it through Netflix.

But that's Israel, not Jews. Jews nowadays are scattered all over the world, so are Jews going to beleive in God again? Like we do? Or what?

Ayala
Aug 10th 2008, 02:00 AM
Jews are a nationality, not a religion...There are many Jewish Christians. I believe you're thinking of Judaists.

Sold Out
Aug 10th 2008, 02:05 AM
But that's Israel, not Jews. Jews nowadays are scattered all over the world, so are Jews going to beleive in God again? Like we do? Or what?

True, there are Jews all over the world, but they are still the chosen race. The Jews brought forth the Messiah. In fact, there is a law in place in Israel called the Law of Return, which states any Jew anywhere in the world can return to their homeland and become citizens of Israel which is just another testament to how Jews are synonymous with the nation if Israel.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 10th 2008, 02:07 AM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?


They're chosen to be a sign of God's faithfulness. Likewise, though the Jews don't accept Christ en masse, there is a remnant of Jewish people that have accepted Christ.

I'd suggest you read Romans 12 to help some of the confusion.

Diolectic
Aug 10th 2008, 03:09 AM
How odd for God to choose the jews.
I know that the goyim anoy'um.
:rofl::lol: :D

SIG
Aug 10th 2008, 06:10 AM
True, there are Jews all over the world, but they are still the chosen race. The Jews brought forth the Messiah. In fact, there is a law in place in Israel called the Law of Return, which states any Jew anywhere in the world can return to their homeland and become citizens of Israel which is just another testament to how Jews are synonymous with the nation if Israel.


Alas, Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah, such as myself, are no longer included in the Law of Return...

bondservant4him
Aug 10th 2008, 03:25 PM
i wonder if the holocaust was Gods way at getting back at them for persecuting jesus

apothanein kerdos
Aug 10th 2008, 03:39 PM
i wonder if the holocaust was Gods way at getting back at them for persecuting jesus

That's ignorant of so many things.

For one, Jews as a whole didn't do a thing to Jesus. Jesus was a Jew, His disciples were Jews, the first Christians were Jews.

Secondly, Jews had been persecuted by Christians since 325AD.

Thirdly, God offered Christ up as a sacrifice, so ultimately it would be God's 'fault' for the death of Christ (which God said pleased Him).

Fourth, the Holocaust was the result of anti-semitism.

2Witnesses
Aug 10th 2008, 03:43 PM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Hi,

Jews were 'chosen' in the 'corporate' sence. That does NOT make every Jew a child of God.

Only the remnant was saved when Jesus came. And now, in the these end of days, the rest of His remnant is being saved.

2Witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

BroRog
Aug 10th 2008, 04:46 PM
Harry,

Here is how I describe it sometimes. God has both a covert and an overt relationship with people.

I personally have a covert relationship with God; it's private, in my head and in my heart. It's not for show; other people can't see it. I keep it private on purpose. It's just between me and him. No one can really say whether I love God or not. Only he knows for sure; and he's not telling.

At the same time, God has decided it would suit his purposes to have an overt relationship with one particular family out of all the other families on earth. This relationship is very open. It's public, out in the open. Everyone who has access to the prophets and the scriptures knew whether Israel loved God or not. Unlike our personal relationships with God, which are private and the private details remain unrevealed, the details of God's relationship with Jacob's family were recorded in the holy scriptures for all to see.

God has a reason for having an overt relationship with a particular family on earth. As we study the scriptures, they reveal the reason. And since it is quite a blessing to discover this reason on our own, I leave it to you and others to find it.

Happy hunting.

RogerW
Aug 10th 2008, 05:17 PM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Here are the chosen people of God. It makes no difference whether you were born Jewish, or a Gentile. The children of the promise are the true Israel, the Israel of God.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ga 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Blessings,
RW

livingwaters
Aug 10th 2008, 05:34 PM
BroRog, the only way a Christian does not display their life and love for God might be if they lived in an oppressed country - and even then, some still do display it and die for it. Jews, are no exception to being persecuted for Christ.

I don't understand how you can say you are a Christian, without a public display, at least in acknowledging HIM to others as your Savior. HIS Word says, if you do not acknowledge HIM , HE will not acknowledge you to HIS Father. I'm not trying to be harsh, I just don't understand that reasoning.

All true Christians I know, can't help but show that they belong to the Kingdom, and are so humbled by what Christ did for us all, especially the Jews.

God is all-knowing, as well. It was not meant for us to understand everything HE does on this earth. But, surely, we'll be informed when we get to Heave, don't you think??!!!!

God Bless:hug::pray:

BroRog
Aug 10th 2008, 06:30 PM
BroRog, the only way a Christian does not display their life and love for God might be if they lived in an oppressed country - and even then, some still do display it and die for it. Jews, are no exception to being persecuted for Christ.

I don't understand how you can say you are a Christian, without a public display, at least in acknowledging HIM to others as your Savior. HIS Word says, if you do not acknowledge HIM , HE will not acknowledge you to HIS Father. I'm not trying to be harsh, I just don't understand that reasoning.

All true Christians I know, can't help but show that they belong to the Kingdom, and are so humbled by what Christ did for us all, especially the Jews.

God is all-knowing, as well. It was not meant for us to understand everything HE does on this earth. But, surely, we'll be informed when we get to Heave, don't you think??!!!!

God Bless:hug::pray:

Ah, I can see I didn't make myself clear. Of course, you are right that our Christianity has a public face. And as Jesus said, "they will no you by your love for one another." But I still maintain that you can't REALLY know my motivations and what God thinks of my actions.

For instance, I may give to the poor out of my love for people and my love for God. Or, in a twisted way, I might give to the poor out of my love for all the attention it might bring me. Either way, no one on earth can know my true motives.

But in the scriptures, God reveals the motives of Israel as a group. He deals with them as a group. He has a group relationship with them. At the time He spoke to their leaders, gave them his oracles through his prophets, and trained them as a people in a conceptual vocabulary well suited to his wish to reveal himself to the world.

By contrast, he didn't do that for any other people group in the world.

BroRog
Aug 10th 2008, 06:31 PM
Here are the chosen people of God. It makes no difference whether you were born Jewish, or a Gentile. The children of the promise are the true Israel, the Israel of God.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ga 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Blessings,
RW

Roger,

The passages you cited apply to believing Jews, not believing Gentiles.

Instrument
Aug 10th 2008, 07:51 PM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

Hello,
My english is not good but i will try to respond it:

not all Jews reject to Jesus. Rom 11: 25 talking about it says that: "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of gentiles be come in".

Notice the words "in part" means "not alls".

Bless.

Sold Out
Aug 11th 2008, 12:12 AM
Alas, Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah, such as myself, are no longer included in the Law of Return...

Yes, I did read that! Isn't that interesting?

RogerW
Aug 11th 2008, 12:45 AM
Roger,

The passages you cited apply to believing Jews, not believing Gentiles.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ga 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Every believer, whether they be Jew or Gentile receives the circumcision of the heart in the Spirit. And children of the promise are both Jew and Gentile believers. Both are called the Israel of God.

Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 12:36 PM
Yea, So like the title says, Why are God's chosen people the Jews if Jews today don't accept Lord Jesus Christ as their only way to Heaven / their Lord and Savior? Any thoughts or comments?

What I have been told is that since God does nothing wrong, and no mistakes or anything, and everything done on Earth is used for the Glory of God somehow even if we don't understand it. He also uses Bad people, or unsaved people for his Glory, we may not understand some of the events that happen but then again He is God, and we cannot ever fully understand Him. Yes you may say He is selfish in OUR eyes, but in reality if you think about it, we all owe God so much that we can never give back what he has already given us.

Any thoughts? Comments?

A remnant of Israel shall be saved.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Jer 23:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Zeph 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

I hope this is helpful.

Firstfruits

Romulus
Aug 11th 2008, 06:32 PM
A remnant of Israel shall be saved.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Jer 23:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Zeph 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=36&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

I hope this is helpful.

Firstfruits

A remnant WAS saved. The remanant simply was the Jews who accepted Jesus as Lord. Was not this Matthew, John, Luke, the disciples etc. and all the believing Jews of the 1st Century? Why forget them. A majority of Israel did reject the Gospel and the Old Covenant but let us not forget about those that did receive the Gospel. They became the foundation of the one tree with unfaithful Israel being broken off and the believing gentiles being grafted in.

If there was no remnant or believing Jew there may be a case for a future fulfillment but there was a remnant just as scripture foretold. There was no replacement of Israel by the Church because faithful Israel DID receive the Gospel(the Remnant.) The Church was not just believing gentiles but one tree made up of believing Israel(Jewish believers) and gentile believers. This is the Israel of God or the Church.

There is no special plan for ethnic Israel, only that those that recieve Christ will become part of the true Israel of God. If scripture pointed to all ethnic Israel being saved in a future time then scripture really was only talking about the last generation of ethnic Israel at the end of time. God then only had that generation in mind while 2000+ years of Israel have fallen away not knowing Him. God was talking about faithful Israel and therefore that encompassed all who have received Jesus since the 1st century and has been going strong since then. That I believe was His plan all along, those that received Him. The gospel and blessing of God are open equally to all who receive Him no matter what race. All the promises are the same to all, no favoritism. There are only two people that God sees and has always seen. Those in Christ, and those not in Christ. If you are not in Christ, then you are not Israel.

Praise God we are all in Him through His blood shed on the cross.

God Bless.

Firstfruits
Aug 11th 2008, 07:08 PM
A remnant WAS saved. The remanant simply was the Jews who accepted Jesus as Lord. Was not this Matthew, John, Luke, the disciples etc. and all the believing Jews of the 1st Century? Why forget them. A majority of Israel did reject the Gospel and the Old Covenant but let us not forget about those that did receive the Gospel. They became the foundation of the one tree with unfaithful Israel being broken off and the believing gentiles being grafted in.

If there was no remnant or believing Jew there may be a case for a future fulfillment but there was a remnant just as scripture foretold. There was no replacement of Israel by the Church because faithful Israel DID receive the Gospel(the Remnant.) The Church was not just believing gentiles but one tree made up of believing Israel(Jewish believers) and gentile believers. This is the Israel of God or the Church.

There is no special plan for ethnic Israel, only that those that recieve Christ will become part of the true Israel of God. If scripture pointed to all ethnic Israel being saved in a future time then scripture really was only talking about the last generation of ethnic Israel at the end of time. God then only had that generation in mind while 2000+ years of Israel have fallen away not knowing Him. God was talking about faithful Israel and therefore that encompassed all who have received Jesus since the 1st century and has been going strong since then. That I believe was His plan all along, those that received Him. The gospel and blessing of God are open equally to all who receive Him no matter what race. All the promises are the same to all, no favoritism. There are only two people that God sees and has always seen. Those in Christ, and those not in Christ. If you are not in Christ, then you are not Israel.

Praise God we are all in Him through His blood shed on the cross.

God Bless.

Who are the 144,000 in the following that are here during the sounding of the seven trumpets of Gods wrath?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 14:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits

8PoundBabyJesus
Aug 11th 2008, 07:25 PM
It's all about semantics.


They are God's chosen people, because God chose them. They turned away, but he still chose them. Or you could say they "were" his chosen people.

Just words.

drew
Aug 12th 2008, 03:04 AM
Roger,

The passages you cited apply to believing Jews, not believing Gentiles.
I believe that Roger W is correct, certainly in respect to the Romans 9 material. I think it is pretty clear that Paul is mounting an argument that there are two Israels - national Israel and "true" Israel. And here, as elsewhere, Paul is saying that the covenant promises were never really for "national Israel" - the genetic descendents of Abraham, but rather for a different group composed of both Jews and Gentiles.

Early in Romans 9, Paul strongly hints that "true" Israel is not constituted solely by the genetic descendents of Abraham:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.

Later in Romans 9, Paul makes it clear that "true" Israel - those who are heirs to the covenant promises - is constituted by both Jew and Gentiles:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Toymom
Aug 12th 2008, 03:27 AM
We are God's chosen people because it was His good pleasure to choose us.
And He never "unchose" us.
That would be unrighteous and God is righteous.
In the Old Testament, the history of the Jewish people shows how we all relate to God.
Even those of us who are saved, we all turn to idols repeatedly.
We all put other things before God in our lives over and over again and then we repent and return to Him.
We are all sinners.
It is up to God to judge Israel - it is not up to you.

(I am Jewish by birth and upbringing and am now a born again Christian by the will of God.)

SIG
Aug 12th 2008, 03:52 AM
Yes, Toymom....

The Jews were called out by God from among the nations (Abraham in Ur) to fulfill certain purposes of His:

1. To be a model of His dealings with all humans
2. To receive, write, and preserve His Scriptures
3. To be the genetic line of the Messiah

...and more.

Because of the ministry He gave them, the wrath of Satan, who desires to thwart those purposes, has continually been poured out on the Jews in a way that no other racism demonstrates.

This calling out, choosing, and ministry is in place whether or not any individual Jew recognizes Christ as Messiah.

They were, are, and will always be "the apple of His eye."

BroRog
Aug 12th 2008, 05:10 AM
I believe that Roger W is correct, certainly in respect to the Romans 9 material. I think it is pretty clear that Paul is mounting an argument that there are two Israels - national Israel and "true" Israel. And here, as elsewhere, Paul is saying that the covenant promises were never really for "national Israel" - the genetic descendents of Abraham, but rather for a different group composed of both Jews and Gentiles.

Early in Romans 9, Paul strongly hints that "true" Israel is not constituted solely by the genetic descendents of Abraham:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.

Later in Romans 9, Paul makes it clear that "true" Israel - those who are heirs to the covenant promises - is constituted by both Jew and Gentiles:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I don't think Paul is saying there are two Israels. Rather, he is saying that the Israel of the promise will have a population consisting of spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob. While Gentiles are included among the "called out ones", His point in 9:6 is focused on national Israel.

At some point in Israel's future, national Israel will consist entirely of believers.

Firstfruits
Aug 12th 2008, 08:18 AM
It's all about semantics.


They are God's chosen people, because God chose them. They turned away, but he still chose them. Or you could say they "were" his chosen people.

Just words.

According to the following it does not say that they turned away, and that they were chosen;

Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 14:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

kevin
Aug 12th 2008, 11:12 AM
only some jews don`t believe,most jews do.read romans 9:30 -11:10 key verses ro,9:30 & ro,10:18-21 & ro,10:8-10.

Romulus
Aug 12th 2008, 01:27 PM
Who are the 144,000 in the following that are here during the sounding of the seven trumpets of Gods wrath?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 14:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

I rather not derail this thread by getting into eschatology. I am a Full Preterist so that should answer your question. Question though, we all know that the a remnant of Israel was to occur. Do you believe that Remnant means believing Jews who did/would receive the Gospel? If so what do you do with the remnant back in the first century? The fact that they exist must mean something.

Any thoughts?

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2008, 02:40 PM
Who are the 144,000 in the following that are here during the sounding of the seven trumpets of Gods wrath?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 14:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits

The 144K aren't mentioned in association with the 7 trumpets.

They are mentioned in Chapter 7, which is a parenthetical chapter picturing all of the redeemed of God from all ages; first the 144K from Israel; then following the uncountable multitide from all nations and tongues.

Chapter 14 again mentions the 144K as being the firstfruits of God and Christ (aka not 21st century lastfruits), and that they are in heaven (again denoting they are long dead and gone and represented in Heaven by the time Christ comes at the end of time to reap the Earth as described in the later part of Chapter 14.

The faithful beleivers from Israel comprised the 144K; and James even reminded us in his epistle that the members of the 12 tribes, his brethren, were the firstfruits of Christ....(just like Rev 14 calls them).

Not all of Revelation is end-time; and the 144K wree the ones who were involved in carrying the gospel and message of God; and who in the 1st century took it out to all nations and uncountable people.

Have you never read in the gospel accounts, and the book of Acts how many multitudes upon multitudes and thousands and thousands of people from Israel heard, believed, and followed Jesus and then took His message out to the Gentile nations?

That is the picture Revelation 7 is painting all in one summary chapter.

All of the redeemed; first the Jew, then the Greek.

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2008, 02:44 PM
This calling out, choosing, and ministry is in place whether or not any individual Jew recognizes Christ as Messiah.

They were, are, and will always be "the apple of His eye."


In all passages in the O.T. (the NT never mentions apple of His eye), where Israel or Jews are referenced as the apple; it is in context of faithful believe Jews who follow the Lord....never is it in context of disobedient Israel or Jews who reject the Lord.

So yes, it is very much so the individual Jew who recognizes Christ as Messiah...they are the apple of His eye.

Judas Iscariot, King Ahab, Jezebel, Jeroboam, Herod, Caiaphas....none of these wicked, God-rejecting Israelites were the apple of God's eye.

drew
Aug 12th 2008, 02:47 PM
I don't think Paul is saying there are two Israels. Rather, he is saying that the Israel of the promise will have a population consisting of spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob. While Gentiles are included among the "called out ones", His point in 9:6 is focused on national Israel.
Perhaps we are working to a different definition of who "true" Israel is. Romans 9 is complicated and, I suggest, massively misunderstood by the majority of people.

I think one can reasonably infer that, for Paul, "true" Israel can be defined as those who inherit the covenant blessings - peace, justification, etc. And Paul is pretty clear that he considers that Abraham's "true" family - those who are true heirs to the covenant - does indeed include both Jew and Gentile. From Romans 4:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

Those "of the law" are national Israel, since the "law" is the Torah. And Paul is clearly saying that Abraham's true family - those who are heirs to the covenant includes both Jew and Gentile.

And we also have this, again, from later in Romans 9:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,...

Paul is being clear here - the "true" family of God - Abraham's true family - is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Now I refer to this family as "true Israel" precisely because they are the heirs to the covenant. Now perhaps you want to use the term "true Israel" to refer to, as you say, "spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob". Obviously, you can do that - there clearly are members of "national Israel" who are not "spiritual sons of Abraham".

But, terminology aside, I think it is very clear that Paul sees the "heirs of the covenant - referred to in Romans 4 as those father is Abraham - as consisting of both Jews and Gentiles.

But, in Romans 9, Paul at times is talking about this "true family" of Abraham, at other times he is talking about national Israel as a whole - I think that "national Israel" is the pot in potter metaphor - and, as I think you are suggesting, a case can be made that in the early verses, he does indeed identify the "spiritual sons of Abraham" as a subset of national Israel.

But Paul is clear - the heirs to the covenant - Abrahams world-wide family - includes both Jews and Gentiles.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 04:26 PM
I don't think Paul is saying there are two Israels. Rather, he is saying that the Israel of the promise will have a population consisting of spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob. While Gentiles are included among the "called out ones", His point in 9:6 is focused on national Israel.

At some point in Israel's future, national Israel will consist entirely of believers.Which Israel is Paul talking about here:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The "commonwealth of Israel" is the Israel in which being "children of the flesh" (natural descendants) does not make one a part. The blood of Jesus is what brings people into the true Israel of God.

As was noted before, Romans 9:6 says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel". Then notice in Romans 9:7 that it says, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." and Romans 9:8 says, "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.".

Compare that to this passage:

Galatians 4
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Here is Paul speaking to both Jew and Gentile believers and he tells them that we are all, as Isaac was, the children of promise. Remember what he said in Romans 9:6-8. Compare Galatians 4:28 to Romans 9:7-8. Clearly, Paul is including Gentile believers within the Israel of which not all Israel are natural descendants of Israel. The "all Israel" that Paul speaks about in Romans 9:6 is the same as "the commonwealth of Israel" that he speaks about in Ephesians 2:12 that Gentiles were once not a part of, but became a part of through the shed blood of Christ.

Firstfruits
Aug 12th 2008, 08:35 PM
The 144K aren't mentioned in association with the 7 trumpets.

They are mentioned in Chapter 7, which is a parenthetical chapter picturing all of the redeemed of God from all ages; first the 144K from Israel; then following the uncountable multitide from all nations and tongues.

Chapter 14 again mentions the 144K as being the firstfruits of God and Christ (aka not 21st century lastfruits), and that they are in heaven (again denoting they are long dead and gone and represented in Heaven by the time Christ comes at the end of time to reap the Earth as described in the later part of Chapter 14.

The faithful beleivers from Israel comprised the 144K; and James even reminded us in his epistle that the members of the 12 tribes, his brethren, were the firstfruits of Christ....(just like Rev 14 calls them).

Not all of Revelation is end-time; and the 144K wree the ones who were involved in carrying the gospel and message of God; and who in the 1st century took it out to all nations and uncountable people.

Have you never read in the gospel accounts, and the book of Acts how many multitudes upon multitudes and thousands and thousands of people from Israel heard, believed, and followed Jesus and then took His message out to the Gentile nations?

That is the picture Revelation 7 is painting all in one summary chapter.

All of the redeemed; first the Jew, then the Greek.

Who are those mentioned at the fifth trumpet?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 12th 2008, 08:43 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

I rather not derail this thread by getting into eschatology. I am a Full Preterist so that should answer your question. Question though, we all know that the a remnant of Israel was to occur. Do you believe that Remnant means believing Jews who did/would receive the Gospel? If so what do you do with the remnant back in the first century? The fact that they exist must mean something.

Any thoughts?

What are the remnant of Israel saved from in the future?

What are they protected from?

The first century Jews that believe will not go through the out pouring of Gods wrath. The 144,000 will.

Firstfruits

David Taylor
Aug 12th 2008, 09:48 PM
Who are those mentioned at the fifth trumpet?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Firstfruits

Christians.

2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his"

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. "

2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Ephesians 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints"

Ephesians 4:30 "the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."


Simply the Christians living on the Earth when the fifth trumpet is being poured out upon the wicked.

Kinda like in the Exodus, when the boils, and frogs, and locusts, and death angel were poured out upon the wicked; while those faithful to God were kept from and held safely under the protective arm of the Lord.

SIG
Aug 12th 2008, 11:58 PM
In all passages in the O.T. (the NT never mentions apple of His eye), where Israel or Jews are referenced as the apple; it is in context of faithful believe Jews who follow the Lord....never is it in context of disobedient Israel or Jews who reject the Lord.

So yes, it is very much so the individual Jew who recognizes Christ as Messiah...they are the apple of His eye.

Judas Iscariot, King Ahab, Jezebel, Jeroboam, Herod, Caiaphas....none of these wicked, God-rejecting Israelites were the apple of God's eye.

I'm not fully convinced of this. Here are the references:

Deu 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
Pro 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
Lam 2:18 Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.
Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

BroRog
Aug 13th 2008, 12:25 AM
Perhaps we are working to a different definition of who "true" Israel is.

Well, our interpretations of Romans 9 do not agree with each other.


I think one can reasonably infer that, for Paul, "true" Israel can be defined as those who inherit the covenant blessings - peace, justification, etc. And Paul is pretty clear that he considers that Abraham's "true" family - those who are true heirs to the covenant - does indeed include both Jew and Gentile.

While it is true that the spiritual sons of Abraham include both Jew and
Gentile by virtue of their shared faith, Paul's topic in Romans 9 has switched from individual ethnic Jews to Israel as a nation. Consequently his focus has switched from Abraham's sons, to Jacob's sons. While both Jew and Gentile are sons of Abraham, Gentiles are not sons of Jacob.


And Paul is clearly saying that Abraham's true family - those who are heirs to the covenant includes both Jew and Gentile.

I agree in principle with what you said, but I wouldn't put it quite like that. Ishmael is just as much a part of Abraham's "true" family as Isaac was. To say, "Ishmael is a son of Abraham" is a true statement. He IS a son of Abraham. Paul isn't saying that Ishmael isn't a son of Abraham; rather, he is saying that Isaac is a child of promise. The difference between Ishmael and Isaac is the fact that Isaac was the child of promise, whereas Ishmael was not.



And we also have this, again, from later in Romans 9:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,...

Paul is being clear here - the "true" family of God - Abraham's true family - is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Actually, the passage from Hosea speaks about the Jews as a people, not the Gentiles as a people. It was the Jews, not the Gentiles who were declared, "not my people."


Now I refer to this family as "true Israel" precisely because they are the heirs to the covenant. Now perhaps you want to use the term "true Israel" to refer to, as you say, "spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob". Obviously, you can do that - there clearly are members of "national Israel" who are not "spiritual sons of Abraham".

I never use the term "true Israel" for the same reason I don't like to use the term "true sons of Abraham." The citizens of Israel today are Israelites whether they believe in Jesus or not. They are truly citizens of Israel. The term "true" just confuses the issue. I believe the Israel of Romans 9:6 is populated entire by believing sons of Jacob, because that I what I think Paul means.


But, terminology aside, I think it is very clear that Paul sees the "heirs of the covenant - referred to in Romans 4 as those father is Abraham - as consisting of both Jews and Gentiles.

Quite right. But starting in Romans 9, he is done making his argument for Gentile inclusiveness, to start a new argument for why the word of God has not failed with regard to certain national promises God made to Israel as a nation.

BroRog
Aug 13th 2008, 01:08 AM
Which Israel is Paul talking about here:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The "commonwealth of Israel" is the Israel in which being "children of the flesh" (natural descendants) does not make one a part. The blood of Jesus is what brings people into the true Israel of God.

I think Paul is making the exact opposite point. Rather than making a general statement about all Gentiles, I believe Paul is making a unique point about the Ephesians.

First, I believe the KJV translators missed the point in verse 11. Paul isn't saying, "you who were formally Gentiles . . . " as if the Ephesians were no longer Gentiles. He means to remind them that the were "formally . . . separated from Christ." Until Paul came to preach to them, they had no access or awareness of Christ.

Second, his main point of this section is to say that the Ephesians have access to God through Christ. The citizens of Israel had access to God through the temple, the scriptures, and a lifetime of cultural practices that educated the Jews about the will of God and to anticipate the coming Messiah.

He lists several things that gave the citizens of Israel an advantage over the citizens of Ephesus: living in Israel, Israeli citizens became familiar with promises concerning a coming Messiah through the weekly reading of the scriptures, the temple worship, religious training, education, and cultural practices. Ephesian Children were not made aware of what the Bible said. They didn't celebrate the Passover, or the day of Atonement. The Ephesians were totally unaware of the coming messiah and the promises he would fulfill.

They were ignorant concerning Christ because they were "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel". Living in another country, they had no idea about the coming messiah. The idea of a covenant of promise was foreign to them. For this reason, they lived in a world without God and without hope.

But now, he says, the Ephesians were "brought near" by the blood of Christ. The Ephesians got access to the message about Christ, not by becoming citizens of Israel, but due to the fact that Paul went to Ephesus to preach about Christ. In other words, rather than bringing the Ephesians to Israel to find Christ, Paul brought Christ to the Ephesians.


Here is Paul speaking to both Jew and Gentile believers and he tells them that we are all, as Isaac was, the children of promise. Remember what he said in Romans 9:6-8. Compare Galatians 4:28 to Romans 9:7-8. Clearly, Paul is including Gentile believers within the Israel of which not all Israel are natural descendants of Israel. The "all Israel" that Paul speaks about in Romans 9:6 is the same as "the commonwealth of Israel" that he speaks about in Ephesians 2:12 that Gentiles were once not a part of, but became a part of through the shed blood of Christ.

In my view, Paul is making a different point in Romans 9:6 than he did in Galatians 4 due to the fact that the issues are different. In Galatians 4, Paul is making his case for why his gospel includes Gentiles as well as Jews, and why Gentiles need not put themselves under the Mosaic Law. He makes his case for inclusiveness based on the fact that Gentile believers share the same faith as their spiritual father Abraham, and that the true intent for the Law was to bring the Jews to Christ. Since the Gentiles have Jesus, which was the point of the Law, they need not put themselves under it.

In Romans 9, the issue does not concern the inclusion of the Gentiles as heirs of salvation, but rather Paul has decided to answer the question of why his gospel does not negate the promise of God concerning a national day of salvation. To that point only a handful of the sons of Jacob became believers. By contrast, God promised to pour out his spirit on each and every one of them. If God does NOT do this, then it will be true that God's word has failed.

Paul begins his argument by restating a point he already proved: the children of God are the children of promise. But instead of using that premise to prove Gentiles are included in salvation, he is now using that same premise to prove that not all Jews are included in the promise God made to national Israel. The Nation of the promise will only include children of the promise.

But by making that point, he is NOT also saying "each and every spiritual child of Abraham is a citizen of Israel." He isn't changing his definition of Israel to include Gentiles. He isn't, by some slight of hand, attempting to apply a promise made to national Israel to the Gentiles so that he might bring them into THAT promise. He already made his case for why Gentiles are included in God's promise to Abraham, which brings the Gentiles the gift of salvation. By the end of Chapter 8, he is done with that point. Starting in Chapter 9 and ending in Chapter 11, he makes the case for how his gospel does not cause God's national promise to fail.

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 01:19 AM
I don't think Paul is saying there are two Israels. Rather, he is saying that the Israel of the promise will have a population consisting of spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob. While Gentiles are included among the "called out ones", His point in 9:6 is focused on national Israel.

At some point in Israel's future, national Israel will consist entirely of believers.


Perhaps we are working to a different definition of who "true" Israel is. Romans 9 is complicated and, I suggest, massively misunderstood by the majority of people.

I think one can reasonably infer that, for Paul, "true" Israel can be defined as those who inherit the covenant blessings - peace, justification, etc. And Paul is pretty clear that he considers that Abraham's "true" family - those who are true heirs to the covenant - does indeed include both Jew and Gentile. From Romans 4:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all

Those "of the law" are national Israel, since the "law" is the Torah. And Paul is clearly saying that Abraham's true family - those who are heirs to the covenant includes both Jew and Gentile.

And we also have this, again, from later in Romans 9:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,...

Paul is being clear here - the "true" family of God - Abraham's true family - is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Now I refer to this family as "true Israel" precisely because they are the heirs to the covenant. Now perhaps you want to use the term "true Israel" to refer to, as you say, "spiritual sons of Abraham from among the sons of Jacob". Obviously, you can do that - there clearly are members of "national Israel" who are not "spiritual sons of Abraham".

But, terminology aside, I think it is very clear that Paul sees the "heirs of the covenant - referred to in Romans 4 as those father is Abraham - as consisting of both Jews and Gentiles.

But, in Romans 9, Paul at times is talking about this "true family" of Abraham, at other times he is talking about national Israel as a whole - I think that "national Israel" is the pot in potter metaphor - and, as I think you are suggesting, a case can be made that in the early verses, he does indeed identify the "spiritual sons of Abraham" as a subset of national Israel.

But Paul is clear - the heirs to the covenant - Abrahams world-wide family - includes both Jews and Gentiles.

To add to what Drew has said, looking at Ro 11 we read:

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

BroRog, from this passage we see that it is not possible that national Israel will ever consist entirely of believers. How could they since as an ethnic people they can no longer exist as a nation of Jews alone. The nation of Israel consisting of Jews has become a nation consisting of both Jews and Gentiles. So when Paul says, "so all Israel shall be saved" he is speaking of Israel consisting of both Jew and Gentile believer.

All of Israel that will be saved is true Israel, the Israel of God. This Israel of God consists of the remnant of Israel (144,000) saved before Christ, and the great multitude saved throughout the NT church era after the cross.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Aug 13th 2008, 08:07 AM
Christians.

2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his"

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. "

2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Ephesians 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints"

Ephesians 4:30 "the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."


Simply the Christians living on the Earth when the fifth trumpet is being poured out upon the wicked.

Kinda like in the Exodus, when the boils, and frogs, and locusts, and death angel were poured out upon the wicked; while those faithful to God were kept from and held safely under the protective arm of the Lord.

Who are they that are sealed in the following before Gods wrath is poured out?

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Firstfruits

kevin
Aug 13th 2008, 08:52 AM
why ask why,we can`t question GOD,they just are the people he chose.;)

BroRog
Aug 13th 2008, 02:58 PM
To add to what Drew has said, looking at Ro 11 we read:

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

BroRog, from this passage we see that it is not possible that national Israel will ever consist entirely of believers. How could they since as an ethnic people they can no longer exist as a nation of Jews alone. The nation of Israel consisting of Jews has become a nation consisting of both Jews and Gentiles. So when Paul says, "so all Israel shall be saved" he is speaking of Israel consisting of both Jew and Gentile believer.

All of Israel that will be saved is true Israel, the Israel of God. This Israel of God consists of the remnant of Israel (144,000) saved before Christ, and the great multitude saved throughout the NT church era after the cross.

Many Blessings,
RW

I understand that section of Romans 11 differently. In Romans 9 - 11, Paul has shifted his focus and his topic away from individual Jews and Gentiles to speak about Israel as an entirety. In his argument, he continually uses the term "Israel" in reference to the nation of Israel in it's entirety, not for Jews individually and not a combination of Jews and Gentiles. He never uses the term as synonymous for "the church" or the "body of Christ."

In Romans 11:5-7, we see an example of this, as Paul draws a contrast between Israel as a whole, and a fraction of the nation he calls, "the remnant."

So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened.

Israel, as a nation failed to obtain what it was seeking, but individual Jews within the nation, a remnant, received it. If Paul was using the term "Israel" to indicate the net sum of all believers, it wouldn't make sense to say that Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking.

The same can be said of the term "Gentiles" in this regard. In his argument, Paul compares Israel (as a whole) to Gentiles. The following statement illustrates how Paul is using the term "Gentiles", not to make a point about individual Gentiles, but Gentiles taken as a whole.

I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.

Paul asks a rhetorical question about Israel, taken as a whole. Did Israel, the nation filled with a small remnant of believers and a large section of unbelievers, stumble so as to fall. Paul says no. This statement is true as he has remained focused on the whole, not the individuals. For indeed, some individuals in Israel did fall to their destruction. But while these individuals fell, the nation continues to live.

Speaking of Gentiles taken as a whole, salvation has come to them too. Individually, of course, not all Gentiles come to saving faith; but speaking in general terms, salvation has come to them.

And so I believe Paul is drawing a contrast between Israel taken as a whole, and Gentiles taken as a whole.

When we get to Paul's Olive Tree analogy, it is tempting to think of the branches as individual people as if a natural branch is an individual Jew and a wild branch is an individual Gentile. In a common interpretation, the Olive Tree stands for "spiritual Israel" to which individual believing Gentiles are grafted, and from which individual unbelieving Jews are broken off.

But if I am right, Paul continues to speak of Israel and Gentiles as corporate entities as he enters his Olive Tree analogy. The branches that are cut off is Israel taken as a whole. The branches that are grafted onto the tree are Gentiles taken as a whole.

Firstfruits
Aug 13th 2008, 03:18 PM
Hi David,

With regards to the following if those that are sealed are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, then why would God then seal them again?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Are they not already the servants of God?

Ephesians 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints"

Firstfruits

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 03:35 PM
I think Paul is making the exact opposite point. Rather than making a general statement about all Gentiles, I believe Paul is making a unique point about the Ephesians. I think you're probably all alone in that belief then.


First, I believe the KJV translators missed the point in verse 11. Paul isn't saying, "you who were formally Gentiles . . . " as if the Ephesians were no longer Gentiles.That isn't what I was saying, either. He is saying they were "Gentiles in the flesh". Another term for Gentile unbelievers. He was not just speaking about the Ephesians, but all Gentiles who once were "without Christ" and "without God in the world". You act as if Paul was giving some kind of elevated status to the Ephesians. Not at all. He was clearly referring to all Gentiles, everyone who was "without Christ" and "without God in the world".



He means to remind them that the were "formally . . . separated from Christ." Until Paul came to preach to them, they had no access or awareness of Christ. Right. I didn't say otherwise.


Second, his main point of this section is to say that the Ephesians have access to God through Christ. The citizens of Israel had access to God through the temple, the scriptures, and a lifetime of cultural practices that educated the Jews about the will of God and to anticipate the coming Messiah. Not just the Ephesians. All Gentile people groups were "without Christ" and "without God in the world" and "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" before Christ came.


He lists several things that gave the citizens of Israel an advantage over the citizens of Ephesus: living in Israel, Israeli citizens became familiar with promises concerning a coming Messiah through the weekly reading of the scriptures, the temple worship, religious training, education, and cultural practices. Ephesian Children were not made aware of what the Bible said. They didn't celebrate the Passover, or the day of Atonement. The Ephesians were totally unaware of the coming messiah and the promises he would fulfill.

They were ignorant concerning Christ because they were "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel". Living in another country, they had no idea about the coming messiah. The idea of a covenant of promise was foreign to them. For this reason, they lived in a world without God and without hope. Right


But now, he says, the Ephesians were "brought near" by the blood of Christ. The Ephesians got access to the message about Christ, not by becoming citizens of Israel, but due to the fact that Paul went to Ephesus to preach about Christ. In other words, rather than bringing the Ephesians to Israel to find Christ, Paul brought Christ to the Ephesians.You're missing what he was saying. The Gentiles were once aliens (not part of) the commonwealth of Israel. BUT, because of the blood of Christ, they were brought near. If you read further in the chapter, Paul goes on to say that Jew and Gentile believers were "made both one" and he said of the Gentile believers, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Eph 2:19). They were no more aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but were now "fellowcitizens with the saints". Fellowcitizens with Jewish believers in the commonwealth of Israel.


In my view, Paul is making a different point in Romans 9:6 than he did in Galatians 4 due to the fact that the issues are different. In Galatians 4, Paul is making his case for why his gospel includes Gentiles as well as Jews, and why Gentiles need not put themselves under the Mosaic Law. He makes his case for inclusiveness based on the fact that Gentile believers share the same faith as their spiritual father Abraham, and that the true intent for the Law was to bring the Jews to Christ. Since the Gentiles have Jesus, which was the point of the Law, they need not put themselves under it.

In Romans 9, the issue does not concern the inclusion of the Gentiles as heirs of salvation, but rather Paul has decided to answer the question of why his gospel does not negate the promise of God concerning a national day of salvation. To that point only a handful of the sons of Jacob became believers. By contrast, God promised to pour out his spirit on each and every one of them. If God does NOT do this, then it will be true that God's word has failed. I disagree. You're missing the connection between the passages, which I already pointed out:

Romans 9:7-8
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Clearly, Gentile believers are included among the seed of Isaac and the children of promise. You're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you.


Paul begins his argument by restating a point he already proved: the children of God are the children of promise. But instead of using that premise to prove Gentiles are included in salvation, he is now using that same premise to prove that not all Jews are included in the promise God made to national Israel. The Nation of the promise will only include children of the promise. You can't just ignore what Galatians 3 and 4 say about who is included among the children of the promise. I quoted Galatians 4:28 above. Galatians 3 gives us further insight.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul clearly explains the criteria for being a child of the promise. Faith in Christ Jesus. Not one's nationality. Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes one of Abraham and Isaac's seed and "heirs according to the promise".


But by making that point, he is NOT also saying "each and every spiritual child of Abraham is a citizen of Israel." He isn't changing his definition of Israel to include Gentiles.He was differentiating between true Israel and national Israel.


He isn't, by some slight of hand, attempting to apply a promise made to national Israel to the Gentiles so that he might bring them into THAT promise.The promise was intended for the true Israel all along. That's what you're missing.


He already made his case for why Gentiles are included in God's promise to Abraham, which brings the Gentiles the gift of salvation. By the end of Chapter 8, he is done with that point. Starting in Chapter 9 and ending in Chapter 11, he makes the case for how his gospel does not cause God's national promise to fail.I disagree. He actually makes the point of how the gospel brings Jew and Gentile believers together as one (all grafted into the same olive tree) in the true Israel of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Paul says there's no difference between the Jew and the Greek. You say there is.

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 03:44 PM
why ask why,we can`t question GOD,they just are the people he chose.;)Are you saying He only chose the Jews as His people? He chose you and me, didn't he? I don't know about you, but I'm not Jewish.

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 04:58 PM
I understand that section of Romans 11 differently. In Romans 9 - 11, Paul has shifted his focus and his topic away from individual Jews and Gentiles to speak about Israel as an entirety. In his argument, he continually uses the term "Israel" in reference to the nation of Israel in it's entirety, not for Jews individually and not a combination of Jews and Gentiles. He never uses the term as synonymous for "the church" or the "body of Christ."

Paul, writing to the church in Galatia, speaks to the church as the "Israel of God." Saying that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, is the same as saying it does not matter brothers in the church whether you are Jew (circumcised) or Gentile (uncircumcised) but that you are a new creature. How shall we define a new creature in the church of both Jew and Gentile believer? "Israel of God"!

Ga 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ga 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



In Romans 11:5-7, we see an example of this, as Paul draws a contrast between Israel as a whole, and a fraction of the nation he calls, "the remnant."

So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened.

Israel, as a nation failed to obtain what it was seeking, but individual Jews within the nation, a remnant, received it. If Paul was using the term "Israel" to indicate the net sum of all believers, it wouldn't make sense to say that Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking.

Paul is not yet making a distinction (Gentiles coming in) between the nation and the Israel of God. The remnant if found within the nation, therefore belonging to the nation as well as belonging to the Israel of God. This is why Paul states that the elect (Israel) obtained salvation, while the rest (Israel) were hardened. This tells us that there are two types of people called Israel (Israel, the nation and the Israel of God), those chosen by grace, and the rest.



The same can be said of the term "Gentiles" in this regard. In his argument, Paul compares Israel (as a whole) to Gentiles. The following statement illustrates how Paul is using the term "Gentiles", not to make a point about individual Gentiles, but Gentiles taken as a whole.

I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.

Paul asks a rhetorical question about Israel, taken as a whole. Did Israel, the nation filled with a small remnant of believers and a large section of unbelievers, stumble so as to fall. Paul says no. This statement is true as he has remained focused on the whole, not the individuals. For indeed, some individuals in Israel did fall to their destruction. But while these individuals fell, the nation continues to live.

Paul is not saying the nation (the rest) did not fall, they most assuredly did. When he says "absolutely not" he is speaking of Israel, the remnant, not the nation. God uses the fall of the nation (the rest) as the reason salvation is sent until all peoples (Gentiles). This was meant to provoke Israel (the rest) to jealousy so that some of them (not all of them) too might become saved through the gospel.

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Historically speaking Israel (the rest) as a nation still exists, but no longer does she exist as the people of God. She is altogether fallen, and that is why the holy city and temple were destroyed in 70 A.D. God has cast the nation away FOREVER, but since there is no longer Jew and Gentile, but one people in Christ, anyone from Israel, or anywhere else in the world can become saved through the gospel of salvation.



When we get to Paul's Olive Tree analogy, it is tempting to think of the branches as individual people as if a natural branch is an individual Jew and a wild branch is an individual Gentile. In a common interpretation, the Olive Tree stands for "spiritual Israel" to which individual believing Gentiles are grafted, and from which individual unbelieving Jews are broken off.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off...

Israel (the rest) are broken off because of unbelief. Israel had been a privileged people. They were benefactors of the blessings of God through the law, and prophets. They belonged to the same Jewish line as Christ, PHYSICALLY, but not Spiritually.

and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;...

Because of their (the rest) unbelief God sends salvation unto all peoples (Gentiles), and those Gentiles chosen unto salvation become partakers of what the nation (both remnant and the rest) once solely possessed.

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Gentiles are warned not to boast against the rest who were broken off, because it was through the Jew that Christ (the Root) came, had this Jewish Messiah not been born there would be no salvation. It is Christ the Root, Who bears His people.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The rest saw themselves as privileged because they were in covenant with God by their physical birth through Abraham. But Paul shows us they (the rest) were broken off because they looked to the physical inheritance instead of standing by faith (Christ alone; the Root). But just as the rest who thought they were secure through their lineage or their own righteousness were broken off because of unbelief, so too, unless we stand by faith (Christ alone), we too will not be spared.

Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Israel, the rest, can be grafted in again through the message of the gospel, if they do so by His grace through faith. Anyone among the rest who are fallen can be saved if they do not continue in unbelief.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Blindness in part (the rest, not the remnant) happened until the fulness of the [elect] Gentiles become saved. Does this mean that once every Gentile who has been ordained to eternal life is saved that Israel (the rest) will all be saved? Not at all! Paul is now showing us the fulness of true Israel, or the Israel of God which consists of the fulness of the Gentiles, Israel - the remnant, and any of Israel - the rest, who become saved through the gospel.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel, the Israel of God, no longer an ethnic Jewish nation, but now the people of God, who are saved by the Deliverer when He takes away their sins.

Many Blessings,
RW

timmyb
Aug 13th 2008, 05:11 PM
God will save all of Israel (Rom. 11:26) to fulfill his covenant with them... although they have forgotten him, he has not forgotten them... every promise he has made to the Jewish people will come to pass... or else God didn't mean what he said when he made those promises

David Taylor
Aug 13th 2008, 05:20 PM
God will save all of Israel (Rom. 11:26) to fulfill his covenant with them... although they have forgotten him, he has not forgotten them... every promise he has made to the Jewish people will come to pass... or else God didn't mean what he said when he made those promises



And that promise to save them is open and available today; to whosoever will repent and turn to him.

It is not postponed and withheld to a future group point in time.

As Isaiah and Paul both said, "Now is the appointed time, now is the day of salvation"

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 05:28 PM
God will save all of Israel (Rom. 11:26) to fulfill his covenant with them... although they have forgotten him, he has not forgotten them... every promise he has made to the Jewish people will come to pass... or else God didn't mean what he said when he made those promises

Greetings timmyb,

All of the promises God made to the nation of Israel have already been fulfilled. But remember God's promises come with both blessing and cursing depending upon obedience or disobedience.

1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Jos 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Ps 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
Ps 105:43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
Ps 105:44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
Ps 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Blessings,
RW

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 06:47 PM
God will save all of Israel (Rom. 11:26) to fulfill his covenant with them... although they have forgotten him, he has not forgotten them... every promise he has made to the Jewish people will come to pass... or else God didn't mean what he said when he made those promisesDid Jesus not already come to turn ungodliness from Jacob and fulfill the covenant to take away their sins? Of course He did. The following verses prove it.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written (in Isaiah 59:20), There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Fulfillment:

Acts 3
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Matthew 26
28For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Romans 11:26-27 is not a new prophecy being made by Paul about a time in the distant future, as some seem to read it, but is actually Paul giving the fulfillment of the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21, which Jesus fulfilled long ago and is continuously fulfilled each time someone repents and turns from their ungodliness and comes to Christ and is saved and has their sins forgiven and taken away.

Firstfruits
Aug 13th 2008, 07:34 PM
And that promise to save them is open and available today; to whosoever will repent and turn to him.

It is not postponed and withheld to a future group point in time.

As Isaiah and Paul both said, "Now is the appointed time, now is the day of salvation"

Hi David,

With regards to the following if those that are sealed are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, then why would God then seal them again?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Are they not already the servants of God?

Ephesians 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints"

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 09:01 PM
Hi David,

With regards to the following if those that are sealed are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, then why would God then seal them again?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Are they not already the servants of God?

Ephesians 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints"

Greetings Firstfruits,

The sealing in Rev 7 is of all who are saved prior to Christ; every OT saint, who died in faith without living to see fulfillment of the promise of the coming Messiah Redeemer. We see this sealing in Eze 9.

Eze 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to indwell believers until Pentecost. Prior to Pentecost the HS dwelt with them, but the sealing through the HS living in them had not yet come. So all these OT saints, who died in faith waited in Abraham's bosom, under the altar, until Christ came to set these captives free. Since they could not go spiritually into heaven until Christ went there to prepare a place for them, God marked them for redemption, and after Christ went to the cross, and resurrected from the grave, all who had received His mark went spiritually into heaven.

This is why we see the same 144,000 firstfruits in Rev 14:1-5 before the throne. These OT saints are also seen under the altar in Rev 6:9-11. To be under the altar was to be under the blood of Christ. These same souls, along with the rest who die for the Word of Christ are seen in Rev 20:4 in heaven.

Rev 7:1-8 shows a picture of all the OT saints being sealed (marked) by God for salvation prior to Christ, and the outpouring of the HS at Pentecost. Then Rev 7:9-17 depicts the great multitude coming out of great tribulation throughout the NT church era. Together they make up the elect bride of Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

timmyb
Aug 13th 2008, 09:57 PM
Greetings timmyb,

All of the promises God made to the nation of Israel have already been fulfilled. But remember God's promises come with both blessing and cursing depending upon obedience or disobedience.

1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Jos 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Ps 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
Ps 105:43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
Ps 105:44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
Ps 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Blessings,
RW

nope just because he remembered in the past doesn't mean he fulfilled his covenant... a covenant doesn't end... it's a commitment to a long term relationship... it's not the same a promise... a covenant is a marriage meant for the long term.... and God made a Covenant with Israel

David Taylor
Aug 13th 2008, 10:19 PM
nope just because he remembered in the past doesn't mean he fulfilled his covenant... a covenant doesn't end... it's a commitment to a long term relationship... it's not the same a promise... a covenant is a marriage meant for the long term.... and God made a Covenant with Israel

Only those from Israel who would believe and follow Him.

Those who reject Him and follow after other gods, His covenant to them was destruction.

Leviticus 26:3,9-12 IF ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new. And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

Deuteronomy 7:12 "Wherefore it shall come to pass, IF ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers"

Malachi 2:5 "My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity."

timmyb
Aug 13th 2008, 10:26 PM
Only those from Israel who would believe and follow Him.

Those who reject Him and follow after other gods, His covenant to them was destruction.

Leviticus 26:3,9-12 IF ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new. And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

Deuteronomy 7:12 "Wherefore it shall come to pass, IF ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers"

Malachi 2:5 "My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity."

but keep in mind the covenants don't countermand each other... If God didn't still have a standing covenant with Israel, then why did Paul even bother writing Romans 11?

David Taylor
Aug 14th 2008, 01:21 AM
why did Paul even bother writing Romans 11?

for the benefit of the isrealites who would repent and believe.

AND

For the benefit of the Gentiles who would be grafted in WITH them and TOGETHER partake of the fatness of the root Christ.

BroRog
Aug 14th 2008, 02:04 AM
God will save all of Israel (Rom. 11:26) to fulfill his covenant with them... although they have forgotten him, he has not forgotten them... every promise he has made to the Jewish people will come to pass... or else God didn't mean what he said when he made those promises

Yes, this is very important. God's integrity is at stake and the fact that he keeps his promises to Israel is good evidence that he will keep his promise to us.

legoman
Aug 14th 2008, 05:11 AM
Yes, this is very important. God's integrity is at stake and the fact that he keeps his promises to Israel is good evidence that he will keep his promise to us.

How will God save all of Israel, if all of Israel, does not repent and claim Jesus as their savior? Or is this a special exception or "another way" to be saved? I don't think so...

When God talks about the Jewish people being his people, he is talking about those who are a Jew in spirit.

Just my 2 cents...

BroRog
Aug 14th 2008, 05:21 AM
How will God save all of Israel, if all of Israel, does not repent and claim Jesus as their savior? Or is this a special exception or "another way" to be saved? I don't think so...

When God talks about the Jewish people being his people, he is talking about those who are a Jew in spirit.

Just my 2 cents...

Ah, but the entire nation of Israel WILL repent and claim Jesus as savior. :)

No special exemption is required. I wish people would read the ENTIRE book of Ezekiel. :rolleyes:

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

David Taylor
Aug 14th 2008, 12:28 PM
Ah, but the entire nation of Israel WILL repent and claim Jesus as savior. :)

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

How do you interpret this passage?

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives

Firstfruits
Aug 14th 2008, 12:48 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

The sealing in Rev 7 is of all who are saved prior to Christ; every OT saint, who died in faith without living to see fulfillment of the promise of the coming Messiah Redeemer. We see this sealing in Eze 9.

Eze 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to indwell believers until Pentecost. Prior to Pentecost the HS dwelt with them, but the sealing through the HS living in them had not yet come. So all these OT saints, who died in faith waited in Abraham's bosom, under the altar, until Christ came to set these captives free. Since they could not go spiritually into heaven until Christ went there to prepare a place for them, God marked them for redemption, and after Christ went to the cross, and resurrected from the grave, all who had received His mark went spiritually into heaven.

This is why we see the same 144,000 firstfruits in Rev 14:1-5 before the throne. These OT saints are also seen under the altar in Rev 6:9-11. To be under the altar was to be under the blood of Christ. These same souls, along with the rest who die for the Word of Christ are seen in Rev 20:4 in heaven.

Rev 7:1-8 shows a picture of all the OT saints being sealed (marked) by God for salvation prior to Christ, and the outpouring of the HS at Pentecost. Then Rev 7:9-17 depicts the great multitude coming out of great tribulation throughout the NT church era. Together they make up the elect bride of Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Thanks Roger,

If they are already before the throne, or already dead, then why would they need to be protected from Gods wrath poured out on the earth?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

If they are already dead how can they be here when God pours out his wrath on the earth?

Firstfruits

RogerW
Aug 14th 2008, 12:58 PM
Thanks Roger,

If they are already before the throne, or already dead, then why would they need to be protected from Gods wrath poured out on the earth?

Rev 7:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

If they are already dead how can they be here when God pours out his wrath on the earth?

Firstfruits

Greeting Firstfruits,

Who is given to hurt the earth and the sea? Before jumping to the conclusion that it is the angels, remember the Greek word translated angels means messengers. Who is the messenger ascending from the east with the seal of the living God? The sealing or marking is symbolic, not literal. God does not have to seal His people, He knows who are His. It's a way of saying that God had [past tense] reserved these OT saints for Himself.

Many Blessings,
RW

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 01:31 PM
How do you interpret this passage?

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives

it's that one third that will be saved... that will be the whole of the land of Israel when all is said and done

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 01:37 PM
for the benefit of the isrealites who would repent and believe.

AND

For the benefit of the Gentiles who would be grafted in WITH them and TOGETHER partake of the fatness of the root Christ.

but Jesus was for Israel first and then to the Gentile... God still has COVENANT with Israel... we need a proper definition of covenant or else we will find them easy to countermand and break....

a covenant is a marriage... God doesn't break covenant... NEVER.... Why else would he call us not to? He stopped the sun for Joshua because of a covenant that Joshua wasn't even supposed to make and was about to kill Moses because he didn't keep the covenant of circumcising his son.... What God is trying to show us by sticking to Israel is that he is a God of covenant, a God who commits for the long term no matter what... Jesus is the culmination of the old covenant and the proof of God's commitment to Israel, Jesus isn't the sign that God has done away with Israel, Jesus is the proof of God's commitment to Israel

Firstfruits
Aug 14th 2008, 01:46 PM
Greeting Firstfruits,

Who is given to hurt the earth and the sea? Before jumping to the conclusion that it is the angels, remember the Greek word translated angels means messengers. Who is the messenger ascending from the east with the seal of the living God? The sealing or marking is symbolic, not literal. God does not have to seal His people, He knows who are His. It's a way of saying that God had [past tense] reserved these OT saints for Himself.

Many Blessings,
RW

Thanks RW,

According to the following they are the angels that have the seven trumpets that will hurt the earth.

Rev 8:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Rev 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Rev 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Rev 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Firstfruits

BroRog
Aug 14th 2008, 02:32 PM
How do you interpret this passage?

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives

I take this literally as a future event. It's a sorting out process in literal fulfillment of Habakkuk 2:2-4 and Isaiah 4. The people of Israel will be told, perhaps through a prophet, maybe even Elijah, that in order to live, one must go to a certain spot and remain there for protection. As the Lord says through Habakkuk, those who believe his message will live. The rest will die. God will place his cloud over that spot to guard it so that no missile, bomb, terrorist, tank, army, nuclear weapon, or anything will be able to harm them.

After that, the Lord himself will do battle against the nations as it says in Joel 3.

BroRog
Aug 14th 2008, 03:04 PM
That isn't what I was saying, either. He is saying they were "Gentiles in the flesh". Another term for Gentile unbelievers.

In my view, the term "flesh" here refers to the circumcision. The Ephesians were not physically circumcised and so, they were not allowed to participate in the religion of the Jews, which among other things gave them access to the inner court.


He was not just speaking about the Ephesians, but all Gentiles who once were "without Christ" and "without God in the world". You act as if Paul was giving some kind of elevated status to the Ephesians.

I guess I wasn't clear. When I say Paul was speaking to the Ephesians, I'm talking about the sentence structure of that verse. When he says "remember that when YOU were Gentiles in the flesh . . ." He means, "remember that when YOU Ephesians were Gentiles in the flesh . . ." Obviously, he could have said the same thing about the Corinthians, the Galatians and etc. We agree about that.

I thought you meant to suggest that the Ephesians were formally Gentiles but now they are no longer Gentiles.


You're missing what he was saying. The Gentiles were once aliens (not part of) the commonwealth of Israel. BUT, because of the blood of Christ, they were brought near. If you read further in the chapter, Paul goes on to say that Jew and Gentile believers were "made both one" and he said of the Gentile believers, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Eph 2:19). They were no more aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but were now "fellowcitizens with the saints". Fellowcitizens with Jewish believers in the commonwealth of Israel.


Actually, I'm not missing the point. I just disagree that being a fellow citizen with the saints living in Jerusalem causes one to be a member of the commonwealth of Israel. Believers are fellow citizens of a new and different nation, not citizens of the commonwealth of Israel.


I disagree. You're missing the connection between the passages, which I already pointed out:


Clearly, Gentile believers are included among the seed of Isaac and the children of promise. You're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you.


We are counted among the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Jacob.


You can't just ignore what Galatians 3 and 4 say about who is included among the children of the promise. I quoted Galatians 4:28 above. Galatians 3 gives us further insight.


I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply saying that the children of Abraham is a broad category, which includes believers from among the Jews and from among the Gentiles. But being a child of Abraham does not necessarily place that child in the "Israel" of Romans 9:6. Paul is making the case for why all those in the "Israel" of Romans 9:6 must also be spiritual sons of Abraham and children by election. But he is not making the correlative point that ALL the elect of God and spiritual sons of Abraham comprise the Israel of Romans 9:6.


Paul clearly explains the criteria for being a child of the promise. Faith in Christ Jesus. Not one's nationality. Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes one of Abraham and Isaac's seed and "heirs according to the promise".


I agree, one's nationality does not keep him from becoming a child of Abraham. We agree on that point. However, Paul is making a different point in Romans 9:6.


He was differentiating between true Israel and national Israel.

Agreed. But in any case, whether we are talking about true Israel or national Israel, the population consists of the natural born sons of Jacob.


I disagree. He actually makes the point of how the gospel brings Jew and Gentile believers together as one (all grafted into the same olive tree) in the true Israel of God.


I agree that both Jews and Gentiles are united on the Olive Tree. I just don't think the Olive Tree is Israel.


Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Paul says there's no difference between the Jew and the Greek. You say there is.

Paul isn't saying the lack of distinction applies across the board. There is no difference between Jew and Greek as it pertains to our worship of God and access to his salvation. But when it comes to promises God made to a nation of people, there is a distinction between those sons of Jacob who are also spiritual sons of Abraham, and those sons of Jacob who are not.

David Taylor
Aug 14th 2008, 05:36 PM
it's that one third that will be saved... that will be the whole of the land of Israel when all is said and done

So 2/3s of Israel are not saved....yet all Israel means 'ALL' future natural Israel....kinda.....sorta....well not really?????

BroRog
Aug 14th 2008, 08:03 PM
Paul, writing to the church in Galatia, speaks to the church as the "Israel of God." Saying that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, is the same as saying it does not matter brothers in the church whether you are Jew (circumcised) or Gentile (uncircumcised) but that you are a new creature. How shall we define a new creature in the church of both Jew and Gentile believer? "Israel of God"!

The interpretation of Galatians 6:16 is hotly debated. I come down on the side of those who think of these as two groups, i.e. "those who walk according to this rule", and "the Israel of God."


Paul is not yet making a distinction (Gentiles coming in) between the nation and the Israel of God. The remnant if found within the nation, therefore belonging to the nation as well as belonging to the Israel of God. This is why Paul states that the elect (Israel) obtained salvation, while the rest (Israel) were hardened. This tells us that there are two types of people called Israel (Israel, the nation and the Israel of God), those chosen by grace, and the rest.


I understand, but I disagree and for the exegetical reason I stated before. We both agree with the premise that the remnant is a subset of the entire nation. Where we disagree is with the premise that Paul has coined the term "Israel" to use reference to the body of Christ.


Paul is not saying the nation (the rest) did not fall, they most assuredly did. When he says "absolutely not" he is speaking of Israel, the remnant, not the nation. God uses the fall of the nation (the rest) as the reason salvation is sent until all peoples (Gentiles). This was meant to provoke Israel (the rest) to jealousy so that some of them (not all of them) too might become saved through the gospel.

In this, our disagreement centers around Paul's use of the term Israel, which hasn't changed throughout his entire treatise on the subject. When you say that the nation fell, you append the qualification (the rest) because, apparently, you are looking at the nation as individual people rather than as a corporate entity. But Paul can use the term without qualification due to the fact that he is NOT using the term to indicate individual people.



Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Blindness in part (the rest, not the remnant) happened until the fulness of the [elect] Gentiles become saved. Does this mean that once every Gentile who has been ordained to eternal life is saved that Israel (the rest) will all be saved? Not at all! Paul is now showing us the fulness of true Israel, or the Israel of God which consists of the fulness of the Gentiles, Israel - the remnant, and any of Israel - the rest, who become saved through the gospel.

Since you must continue to qualify the term "Israel" as (the rest, not the remnant) you run into a category conflict in your explanation above. When Paul says a blindness has happened "in part", the phrase "in part" indicates the subset you describe as "the rest, not the remnant". But in your interpretation, the "in part" no longer divides the nation into "the remnant" and "the rest", so it is left dangling there without any purpose. In essence, it sounds as if you are suggesting "the rest" are partially blind.


Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel, the Israel of God, no longer an ethnic Jewish nation, but now the people of God, who are saved by the Deliverer when He takes away their sins.

Many Blessings,
RW

it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Can you find a passage of scripture in which Paul or someone else describes Gentile believers as "Jacob"?

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 08:10 PM
So 2/3s of Israel are not saved....yet all Israel means 'ALL' future natural Israel....kinda.....sorta....well not really?????

the Israel that remains after that will be all Israel and that will be the people who call upon the name of the Lord...

RogerW
Aug 15th 2008, 06:57 PM
The interpretation of Galatians 6:16 is hotly debated. I come down on the side of those who think of these as two groups, i.e. "those who walk according to this rule", and "the Israel of God."

I come down on the side of Hendriksen: "Now this interpretation [your view] tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle. Over against the Judaizers' perversion of the gospel he has emphasized the fact that "the blessing of Abraham" now rests upon all those, and only upon those, "who are of faith" (3:9); that all those, and only those, "who belong to Christ" are "heirs according to promise" (3:29). These are the very people who "walk by the Spirit" (5:16), and "are led by the Spirit" (5:18). Moreover, to make his meaning very clear, the apostle has even called special attention to the fact that God bestows his blessings on all true believers, regardless of nationality, race, social position, or sex: "There can be neither Jew nor Greek; there can be neither slave nor freeman; there can be no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (3:28).

By means of an allegory (4:21-31) he has re-emphasized this truth. And would he now, at the very close of the letter, undo all this by first of all pronouncing a blessin on "as many as" (or; "all") who walk by the rule of glorying in the cross, be they Jew or Gentile by birth, and then pronouncing a blessing upon those who do not (or: do not yet) walk by that rule? I refuse to accept that explanation. Appeals to the well-known "Eighteen petition prayer of the Jews," to the meaning of the word Israel in other New Testament passages, etc., cannot rescue this interpretation. As to the former, Gal 6:16 must be interpreted in accordance with its own specific context and in the light of the entire argument of this particular epistle. And as to the latter, it is very clear that in his epistles the apostle employs the term Israel in more than one sense. In fact, in the small compass of a single verse (Ro 9:6) he uses it in two different senses. Each passage in which that term occurs must therefore be explained in the light of its context. Besides Paul uses the term "the Isreal of God" only in the present passage, nowhere else.

What, then is the solution? In harmony with all of Paul's teaching in this epistle (and see also Eph 2:14-22), and also in harmony with the broad, all-inclusive statement at the beginning of the present passage, where the apostle pronounces God's blessing of peace and mercy upon "as many as" shall walk by this rule, an object from which nothing can be subtacted and to whcih nothing can be added, it is my firm belief that those many translators and interpreters are right who have decided that kai [and], as here used, must be rendered even, or (with equal effect) must be left untranslated. Hence, what the apostle says is this: "And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." Cf. Ps 125:5. Upon all of God's true Israel, Jew or Gentile, all who truly glory in the cross, the blessing is pronounced." Hendriksen

kai - apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.



In this, our disagreement centers around Paul's use of the term Israel, which hasn't changed throughout his entire treatise on the subject. When you say that the nation fell, you append the qualification (the rest) because, apparently, you are looking at the nation as individual people rather than as a corporate entity. But Paul can use the term without qualification due to the fact that he is NOT using the term to indicate individual people.

"The rest" is certainly to be viewed as a corporate people, but not as a whole (elect remnant, excluded). Who makes up this corporate people, if not individuals? That's like saying the church is a corporate entity, but the church is not individuals.



Since you must continue to qualify the term "Israel" as (the rest, not the remnant) you run into a category conflict in your explanation above.

If "the rest" are the blinded, and they are (Ro 11:7), how could the blinded (the rest) include the elect remnant? The elect or chosen remnant have obtained the favor, or mercy of God. But "the rest" are the multitude who have remained in unbelief.



When Paul says a blindness has happened "in part", the phrase "in part" indicates the subset you describe as "the rest, not the remnant".

Agreed!



But in your interpretation, the "in part" no longer divides the nation into "the remnant" and "the rest", so it is left dangling there without any purpose. In essence, it sounds as if you are suggesting "the rest" are partially blind.

Paul shows us who are blinded. They are not only partially blind, they are completely blind. He is speaking of those blinded prior to Christ. Clearly in vs 7 Paul makes a distinction between the election (remnant), who have obtained what it seeks, and "the rest" who are blinded. "The rest" not partially blinded, but completely blinded.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The part blinded are the rest, if the remnant had also been blinded, then blindness would not have been in part, but the whole nation would have been blinded. The rest (the part that was blinded) are no longer a separate Jewish nation, but now in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, we are all one in Christ. Therefore the fulness of the Gentiles includes any Jew who becomes saved through the gospel of Christ. There is no longer a set apart ethnic nation. There is now in Christ simply the people of God.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Can you find a passage of scripture in which Paul or someone else describes Gentile believers as "Jacob"?

No, but I can show verses that show "Jacob" called Israel.

Ge 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Ge 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Ge 46:2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
Mic 2:13 The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.

Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Lu 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So all Israel of God shall be saved by the Deliverer when He turns away ungodliness from Jacob, when He takes away their sins. Certainly you are not going to argue that this is not speaking of taking away the sins of every believer, both from the OT and the NT?

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Many blessings,
RW

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:13 PM
Ah, but the entire nation of Israel WILL repent and claim Jesus as savior. :)

No special exemption is required. I wish people would read the ENTIRE book of Ezekiel. :rolleyes:

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Isn't that something. Every single one of them will repent and claim Jesus as Savior, eh? Why won't every single person in Jordan or Saudi Arabia or any other nation repent then? What will make everyone in Israel repent but not everyone in any other nation?

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:18 PM
Isn't that something. Every single one of them will repent and claim Jesus as Savior, eh? Why won't every single person in Jordan or Saudi Arabia or any other nation repent then? What will make everyone in Israel repent but not everyone in any other nation?

because God does not have a covenant with those nations... he is clear in scripture that he will do that because that is his covenant with them when he takes away their sins... Romans 11:26-27

Cal Eye
Aug 15th 2008, 07:19 PM
Wouldn't Israel not even be a nation right now if it wasn't for the US and UK?

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:20 PM
it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Can you find a passage of scripture in which Paul or someone else describes Gentile believers as "Jacob"?The fulfillment for that prophecy from Isaiah 59:20 is found in this passage:

Acts 3
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Why do you see the fulfillment of that prophecy as being only in the future when the Deliverer already came to turn ungodliness away from Jacob long ago?

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:23 PM
The fulfillment for that prophecy from Isaiah 59:20 is found in this passage:

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Why do you see the fulfillment of that prophecy as being only in the future when the Deliverer already came to turn ungodliness away from Jacob long ago?

i don't know... it apparently wasn't fulfilled when Paul wrote Romans or else he would have said and all Israel IS saved instead of WILL BE... it's simple grammar... will be is clearly indicating a future event because of an existing covenant

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:23 PM
because God does not have a covenant with those nations... Ah. So God is a respecter of persons then? What are you saying? That God has a covenant to make sure everyone in Israel repents and turns to Christ one day? He will repent and believe for them?


he is clear in scripture that he will do that because that is his covenant with them when he takes away their sins... Romans 11:26-27That has already been accomplished through the new covenant of the shed blood of Christ.

Acts 3
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Cal Eye
Aug 15th 2008, 07:25 PM
Didn't the US and UK give the Israel land to the Jews in recent history?? Does that make these conturies teh new God??? Interesting....

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:26 PM
i don't know... it apparently wasn't fulfilled when Paul wrote Romans or else he would have said and all Israel IS saved instead of WILL BE... it's simple grammar... will be is clearly indicating a future event because of an existing covenantJesus came to turn ungodlienss away from Jacob long ago, as I showed you. It has an ongoing fulfillment as time goes on as people are turned away from ungodliness and come to Christ.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:28 PM
Ah. So God is a respecter of persons then? What are you saying? That God has a covenant to make sure everyone in Israel repents and turns to Christ one day? He will repent and believe for them?

nope he will create a scenario where Israel will as a nation turn to the Messiah and they shall look upon the one whom they have pierced and weep... When it says all Israel will be saved... it means it or else you can call God a liar... it is his word.


That has already been accomplished through the new covenant of the shed blood of Christ.

Acts 3
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him tobless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Know that Paul wrote Romans toward the end of his life... way after the aforementioned verses were written and chronicled...

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:29 PM
Jesus came to turn ungodlienss away from Jacob long ago, as I showed you. It has an ongoing fulfillment as time goes on as people are turned away from ungodliness and come to Christ.

some but it's not all... and keep in mind.. all Israel will be saved... meaning that hasn't been fulfilled yet... apparently it wasn't fulfilled in Paul's mind... he wrote that letter way AFTER those events you said took place...

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:34 PM
nope he will create a scenario where Israel will as a nation turn to the Messiah and they shall look upon the one whom they have pierced and weep... Why wouldn't God create this scenario for all nations? You are making Him out to be a respecter of persons.


When it says all Israel will be saved... it means it or else you can call God a liar... it is his word.Of course it means it. But you are apparently not taking into account Paul's description of "all Israel" from earlier in his letter (Roman 9:6-8).


Know that Paul wrote Romans toward the end of his life... way after the aforementioned verses were written and chronicled...He was referencing an OT prophecy (Isaiah 59:20-21), not making an entirely new prophecy that would only be fulfilled sometime after the time he wrote it.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:44 PM
your application of scripture and timing is totally wrong... you cannot say that Paul said something has happened already when his words are clearly WILL BE... your explanations of your position is not in context to what Paul was writing... notice how Paul said 'and so' before that verse... meaning what he was talking about before he wrote that verse was how Israel will come to salvation as a nation... you ignore the entire thesis except for Rom. 9:6... you either believe that all Israel will be saved like the Bible says or you can spiritualize it away saying it really doesn't say that...

RogerW
Aug 15th 2008, 08:33 PM
because God does not have a covenant with those nations... he is clear in scripture that he will do that because that is his covenant with them when he takes away their sins... Romans 11:26-27

But timmyb in this way of thinking God did not have a covenant with the USA either...does that mean that not one US citizen will be saved?

Are you sure that God's eternal Covenant of Redemption is not extended unto men from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue?

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 08:34 PM
your application of scripture and timing is totally wrong... Our words, in and of themselves, mean nothing. Show me that I'm wrong with scripture. Your insults mean nothing to me without scriptural support to back them up. I could say the same to you, but that would be pointless without showing you why I believe you are wrong with scripture.


you cannot say that Paul said something has happened already when his words are clearly WILL BE... your explanations of your position is not in context to what Paul was writing... notice how Paul said 'and so' before that verse... meaning what he was talking about before he wrote that verse was how Israel will come to salvation as a nation... you ignore the entire thesis except for Rom. 9:6... you either believe that all Israel will be saved like the Bible says or you can spiritualize it away saying it really doesn't say that...I'm not spiritualizing anything away. Paul was saying that all Israel would be saved, as it was written in the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21. Do you accept Paul's definition of Israel as he gave in Romans 9:6-8? The Israel (Israel of God) of which not all was of Israel (the nation) began to be saved at the cross. It continued to be saved up to the time Paul wrote the book of Romans and has continued to be saved ever since. Eventually, ALL Israel shall be saved, as it was written in Isaiah 59:20-21.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 09:22 PM
Our words, in and of themselves, mean nothing. Show me that I'm wrong with scripture. Your insults mean nothing to me without scriptural support to back them up. I could say the same to you, but that would be pointless without showing you why I believe you are wrong with scripture.

I'm not spiritualizing anything away. Paul was saying that all Israel would be saved, as it was written in the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21. Do you accept Paul's definition of Israel as he gave in Romans 9:6-8? The Israel (Israel of God) of which not all was of Israel (the nation) began to be saved at the cross. It continued to be saved up to the time Paul wrote the book of Romans and has continued to be saved ever since. Eventually, ALL Israel shall be saved, as it was written in Isaiah 59:20-21.

shall be is way different than already happened... meaning it is unfulfilled.. it's a clear end times prophecy...

you were trying to say that it's already happened and that that wasn't in line with Romans 9:6... but there are scriptures that clearly say what's going to happen to the nation of Israel saved or unsaved... God has a standing covenant that is never going to end... that's what a covenant is... it is never ended or anulled... a covenant is a marriage and that is unbreakable... and part of that covenant that God has with Israel is that they will all be saved and he will remove ungodliness... in the simple reality that it hasn't happened and Israel is still apostate and that there is at least one unsaved person in the nation of Israel is proof that that particular prophecy hasn't happened but we have a covenant of God to stand on that it will and it's coming

BroRog
Aug 16th 2008, 04:11 PM
Isn't that something. Every single one of them will repent and claim Jesus as Savior, eh? Why won't every single person in Jordan or Saudi Arabia or any other nation repent then? What will make everyone in Israel repent but not everyone in any other nation?

You're talking to me like this is my idea. :) God can do whatever he wants. It's his universe. If he wants to pour out his Spirit on an entire nation, what is that to me?

BroRog
Aug 16th 2008, 05:44 PM
I come down on the side of Hendriksen: "Now this interpretation [your view] tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle.

This quotation from Hendriksen comes at a point in our conversation in which I already anticipated and dealt with the point he makes. In Romans chapters 9 - 11, Paul discusses a different subject from the one he addressed in the first eight chapters.

(As an aside, do a word search on the term "Israel". Take note of the fact that Paul does not use the term "Israel" in his epistle to the Romans until chapter 9. As he makes his case for the universal availability of salvation to both Jews and Greeks, he continues to use the terms "Jew" and "Greek". When the subject changes from individuals to nations, he switches his terminology to Israel and Gentiles.)

Let's not throw out the introductory paragraph in which Paul says that the adoption of sons belongs to his people -- his "kinsmen of the flesh". Not sure what Hendriksen would say about that. I suspect he would at least recognize the implications of the first five verses of Romans, given his interpretation.

If something belongs to my people, I have every right to ask why I can't have what some of my kinsmen were given. If God made a promise to my people, as a people, then I would want to know why I'm not included.

This is a legit question for Paul's kinsmen, and the topic of his discussion for the next three chapters. The first five verses of Romans 9 sets the president. Verse six brings the focus down to a single question, "If God is giving salvation to a subset of the Jews, what about his promise to save the entire nation?" What about THAT Paul?

Hopefully you can see this as a new question. He has already established the fact that salvation has been made widely available to Jew and Gentile alike. But this still doesn't address the question of why God didn't save ALL the Jews, which was his promise. The fact that Gentiles are included is a different issue from the fact that some of the Jews aren't included. The promise of the prophets was universal Jewish salvation. The fact that Paul includes some Gentiles in that, is fine. But what he needs to explain is why his Gospel seems to contradict the prophetic voice that seems to indicate a national restoration of the hearts of all the people.

Romans chapters 9 - 11 sets out to answer THAT question.


"The rest" is certainly to be viewed as a corporate people, but not as a whole (elect remnant, excluded). Who makes up this corporate people, if not individuals? That's like saying the church is a corporate entity, but the church is not individuals.

That's exactly right. That's precisely how Paul is using the term "Israel."

Suppose I say, "God promises to save my church." You will say, "but not everyone in your church is a true believer." Then I will say, "when I said God promises to save my church, I meant God will cause all of it's members to come to saving faith."

Yes, a church is made up of individuals and some individuals will believe and others will not believe. So, if God were going to make a promise to save an entire church, either he would wait until the entire church comes to saving faith, or he will cause the entire church to come to saving faith.

The same can be said of Israel. If God promises to save "the house of Judah and the house of Israel" he either means to say, "I will wait until the entire house of Judah and the entire house of Israel come to saving faith". Or he means to say, "I will cause them all to come to saving faith by pouring out my Spirit on them all."

I believe he meant the latter. He will cause them all to come to saving faith by pouring out his spirit on them all. But the question still remains, why didn't God pour out his spirit on the entire nation during Paul's time?

His answer isn't, "you don't have the spirit of God in you." That continues to beg the question. WHY don't I have the spirit of God in me if God promised to put it in my people? If I am in the house of Judah or the house of Israel, then I qualify on that basis. So again, I ask you Paul, why didn't God pour out his spirit on the entire house of Israel and the entire house of Judah like he said he would?

His actual answer was, "God decides who is in the house of Judah and who is in the house of Israel." Vis:

". . . the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

". . . in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand . . ."

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Emphasizes God's choice of whom to save.)


If "the rest" are the blinded, and they are (Ro 11:7), how could the blinded (the rest) include the elect remnant? The elect or chosen remnant have obtained the favor, or mercy of God. But "the rest" are the multitude who have remained in unbelief.


This is all true. But the point is, Paul refers to the entire group, both the blind and the remnant as "Israel". This is the situation with corporate nouns like "church" or "Israel". Some in Israel are blind, and others have sight. But taken as a whole, God has not abandoned Israel. Otherwise he would just dissolve the corporation and include the believing Jewish remnant in the "church".


Paul shows us who are blinded. They are not only partially blind, they are completely blind. He is speaking of those blinded prior to Christ. Clearly in vs 7 Paul makes a distinction between the election (remnant), who have obtained what it seeks, and "the rest" who are blinded. "The rest" not partially blinded, but completely blinded.

I don't think Paul is MAKING that distinction. It's obvious that in any group of people, you will find blind people and sighted people. Take women for example. Among women we find blind women and sighted women. Among slaves we will find sighted slaves and blind slaves. Among Jews we will find sighted Jews and blind Jews. The situation is obvious and not his real point.

The fact that we find both blind women and sighted women doesn't obliterate the category "women". The fact that we find both blind slaves and sighted slaves doesn't obliterate the category "slave." The fact that we find blind Jews and sighted Jews doesn't obliterate the category "Jew".

That's Paul's point as he attempts to answer the question, "Has God rejected his people?" Even though Israel hasn't obtained what it was seeking, some are blind and others aren't, this doesn't mean God has abandoned them as a people.


The part blinded are the rest, if the remnant had also been blinded, then blindness would not have been in part, but the whole nation would have been blinded. The rest (the part that was blinded) are no longer a separate Jewish nation, but now in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, we are all one in Christ. Therefore the fulness of the Gentiles includes any Jew who becomes saved through the gospel of Christ. There is no longer a set apart ethnic nation. There is now in Christ simply the people of God.

Yes, but that is the exact opposite of the point Paul is making. He is making the point that: regardless of the fact that some of the Jews are blind and some are sighted, God still wants to treat them corporately as a people. He has not abandoned all distinction between Jew and Gentile.

In Galatians, he is making a different point when he says, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave or free, male or female." His point is not to obliterate every distinction between male and female or else he wouldn't have told Timothy that he does not permit a woman to have authority over a man. His point is not to obliterate every distinction between slave a free since he asks slaves to obey their masters, and sends Onesimus back to Philemon. He has not obliterated every distinction between Jew and Gentile, otherwise he wouldn't have said God has not abandoned his people, or that the covenants belong to his kinsmen of the flesh, or that his people are the "natural branches" of the Olive Tree.



No, but I can show verses that show "Jacob" called Israel.

Yes, God changed his name from "Jacob" to "Israel". But this begs the question. When did Paul ever argue that Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation by causing them to become Jacob's children? He doesn't. He says in chapter four that we are Abraham's children because we have the same faith as Abraham, who became the father of those who have faith BEFORE they are circumcised.


So all Israel of God shall be saved by the Deliverer when He turns away ungodliness from Jacob, when He takes away their sins. Certainly you are not going to argue that this is not speaking of taking away the sins of every believer, both from the OT and the NT?

Yes, that is what I am arguing. When I say this, I'm not suggesting that God will not save others. But Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 is a quotation from Isaiah, which specifically refers to Jacob. Whether the Deliverer turns ungodliness away from the Irish, or the French, or the Germans, and etc. is not the issue. The point being made is that he will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. The fact that God hadn't done that during Paul's day is the objection he attempts to answer.

timmyb
Aug 16th 2008, 06:31 PM
But timmyb in this way of thinking God did not have a covenant with the USA either...does that mean that not one US citizen will be saved?

Are you sure that God's eternal Covenant of Redemption is not extended unto men from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue?

Many Blessings,
RW

just because God has a covenant with one nation and not another... Israel is not a salvation covenant... salvation is a benefit of the covenant... you take it in that manner you say that ONLY Israel can be saved... but the words are All Israel WILL BE saved... because of a covenant...

that's not his only covenant... do you know that the US has a covenant with the nation of Israel... as a nation we are in a small way part of that covenant... but not every American will be saved, some of America will be saved but not all... but when Jacob's trouble is said and done every remaining Jewish person in the nation of Israel will call upon the name of Yeshua... all Israel WILL BE saved

Instrument
Aug 16th 2008, 06:37 PM
This quotation from Hendriksen comes at a point in our conversation in which I already anticipated and dealt with the point he makes. In Romans chapters 9 - 11, Paul discusses a different subject from the one he addressed in the first eight chapters.

(As an aside, do a word search on the term "Israel". Take note of the fact that Paul does not use the term "Israel" in his epistle to the Romans until chapter 9. As he makes his case for the universal availability of salvation to both Jews and Greeks, he continues to use the terms "Jew" and "Greek". When the subject changes from individuals to nations, he switches his terminology to Israel and Gentiles.)

Let's not throw out the introductory paragraph in which Paul says that the adoption of sons belongs to his people -- his "kinsmen of the flesh". Not sure what Hendriksen would say about that. I suspect he would at least recognize the implications of the first five verses of Romans, given his interpretation.

If something belongs to my people, I have every right to ask why I can't have what some of my kinsmen were given. If God made a promise to my people, as a people, then I would want to know why I'm not included.

This is a legit question for Paul's kinsmen, and the topic of his discussion for the next three chapters. The first five verses of Romans 9 sets the president. Verse six brings the focus down to a single question, "If God is giving salvation to a subset of the Jews, what about his promise to save the entire nation?" What about THAT Paul?

Hopefully you can see this as a new question. He has already established the fact that salvation has been made widely available to Jew and Gentile alike. But this still doesn't address the question of why God didn't save ALL the Jews, which was his promise. The fact that Gentiles are included is a different issue from the fact that some of the Jews aren't included. The promise of the prophets was universal Jewish salvation. The fact that Paul includes some Gentiles in that, is fine. But what he needs to explain is why his Gospel seems to contradict the prophetic voice that seems to indicate a national restoration of the hearts of all the people.

Romans chapters 9 - 11 sets out to answer THAT question.



That's exactly right. That's precisely how Paul is using the term "Israel."

Suppose I say, "God promises to save my church." You will say, "but not everyone in your church is a true believer." Then I will say, "when I said God promises to save my church, I meant God will cause all of it's members to come to saving faith."

Yes, a church is made up of individuals and some individuals will believe and others will not believe. So, if God were going to make a promise to save an entire church, either he would wait until the entire church comes to saving faith, or he will cause the entire church to come to saving faith.

The same can be said of Israel. If God promises to save "the house of Judah and the house of Israel" he either means to say, "I will wait until the entire house of Judah and the entire house of Israel come to saving faith". Or he means to say, "I will cause them all to come to saving faith by pouring out my Spirit on them all."

I believe he meant the latter. He will cause them all to come to saving faith by pouring out his spirit on them all. But the question still remains, why didn't God pour out his spirit on the entire nation during Paul's time?

His answer isn't, "you don't have the spirit of God in you." That continues to beg the question. WHY don't I have the spirit of God in me if God promised to put it in my people? If I am in the house of Judah or the house of Israel, then I qualify on that basis. So again, I ask you Paul, why didn't God pour out his spirit on the entire house of Israel and the entire house of Judah like he said he would?

His actual answer was, "God decides who is in the house of Judah and who is in the house of Israel." Vis:

". . . the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

". . . in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand . . ."

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Emphasizes God's choice of whom to save.)



This is all true. But the point is, Paul refers to the entire group, both the blind and the remnant as "Israel". This is the situation with corporate nouns like "church" or "Israel". Some in Israel are blind, and others have sight. But taken as a whole, God has not abandoned Israel. Otherwise he would just dissolve the corporation and include the believing Jewish remnant in the "church".



I don't think Paul is MAKING that distinction. It's obvious that in any group of people, you will find blind people and sighted people. Take women for example. Among women we find blind women and sighted women. Among slaves we will find sighted slaves and blind slaves. Among Jews we will find sighted Jews and blind Jews. The situation is obvious and not his real point.

The fact that we find both blind women and sighted women doesn't obliterate the category "women". The fact that we find both blind slaves and sighted slaves doesn't obliterate the category "slave." The fact that we find blind Jews and sighted Jews doesn't obliterate the category "Jew".

That's Paul's point as he attempts to answer the question, "Has God rejected his people?" Even though Israel hasn't obtained what it was seeking, some are blind and others aren't, this doesn't mean God has abandoned them as a people.



Yes, but that is the exact opposite of the point Paul is making. He is making the point that: regardless of the fact that some of the Jews are blind and some are sighted, God still wants to treat them corporately as a people. He has not abandoned all distinction between Jew and Gentile.

In Galatians, he is making a different point when he says, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave or free, male or female." His point is not to obliterate every distinction between male and female or else he wouldn't have told Timothy that he does not permit a woman to have authority over a man. His point is not to obliterate every distinction between slave a free since he asks slaves to obey their masters, and sends Onesimus back to Philemon. He has not obliterated every distinction between Jew and Gentile, otherwise he wouldn't have said God has not abandoned his people, or that the covenants belong to his kinsmen of the flesh, or that his people are the "natural branches" of the Olive Tree.




Yes, God changed his name from "Jacob" to "Israel". But this begs the question. When did Paul ever argue that Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation by causing them to become Jacob's children? He doesn't. He says in chapter four that we are Abraham's children because we have the same faith as Abraham, who became the father of those who have faith BEFORE they are circumcised.



Yes, that is what I am arguing. When I say this, I'm not suggesting that God will not save others. But Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 is a quotation from Isaiah, which specifically refers to Jacob. Whether the Deliverer turns ungodliness away from the Irish, or the French, or the Germans, and etc. is not the issue. The point being made is that he will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. The fact that God hadn't done that during Paul's day is the objection he attempts to answer.

The point is that the salvation of the Jews and the salvation of the Gentiles can not be reconciled at the same time.

Rom 11: 25 says that when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then will disappear hardening of the Jews.

There will be a remnant Jew who will be saved at the last time and this is in response to the promise that God made to Abraham.

Blessings.