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Equipped_4_Love
Aug 10th 2008, 07:48 PM
Mt. 12:31 Therefore I say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men

Most of the Bible teachers that I respect and whose doctrine I agree with define this as the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. Other passages seem to indicate this as well, such as Heb. 10:26-29.

So, if this is the definition of blasphemy....the willful rejection of Jesus Christ.....wouldn't this, then, apply only to those who have actually heard the Gospel; after all, one cannot reject something that he has no knowledge of.

So, then, what of people who die without hearing the Gospel? If they die without Jesus because they have never heard of Him, and not because they have rejected Him (blasphemy), do you suppose that there is some allowance in God's grace that would cover him, and save his soul? After all, that person will not have committed the unforgivable sin.

But then, the Bible says that a person must be born-again to enter Heaven, which means that if a person dies without Christ, that person will not enter Heaven. If everyone who dies without accepting Jesus (whether they have heard about him or not) is condemned, then the only other alternative is that each and every person who lives, or has ever lived, will get a chance to accept or reject Christ.

This does not seem unplausible to me. I've heard many stories of people who were earnestly seeking God, then God sent a missionary to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Bibel says that the only unforgivable sin is willful rejection of Jesus Christ....not dying in ignorance of Him. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that there is no one who will die without haviing known about Jesus in some way, shape, or form.

What do you guys think?

Friend of I AM
Aug 10th 2008, 07:53 PM
Mt. 12:31 Therefore I say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men

Most of the Bible teachers that I respect and whose doctrine I agree with define this as the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. Other passages seem to indicate this as well, such as Heb. 10:26-29.

So, if this is the definition of blasphemy....the willful rejection of Jesus Christ.....wouldn't this, then, apply only to those who have actually heard the Gospel; after all, one cannot reject something that he has no knowledge of.

So, then, what of people who die without hearing the Gospel? If they die without Jesus because they have never heard of Him, and not because they have rejected Him (blasphemy), do you suppose that there is some allowance in God's grace that would cover him, and save his soul? After all, that person will not have committed the unforgivable sin.

But then, the Bible says that a person must be born-again to enter Heaven, which means that if a person dies without Christ, that person will not enter Heaven. If everyone who dies without accepting Jesus (whether they have heard about him or not) is condemned, then the only other alternative is that each and every person who lives, or has ever lived, will get a chance to accept or reject Christ.

This does not seem unplausible to me. I've heard many stories of people who were earnestly seeking God, then God sent a missionary to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Bibel says that the only unforgivable sin is willful rejection of Jesus Christ....not dying in ignorance of Him. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that there is no one who will die without haviing known about Jesus in some way, shape, or form.

What do you guys think?

I think this has to be applied to God knowing the heart of the man, as oppossed to men determining who has blasphemed. People say a lot of stupid things within their walks(I know I have) so I think only one who is omniscient and can discern the intentions of men's hearts can determine who is guilty of this sin.

In Christ,

Stephen

Instrument
Aug 10th 2008, 07:57 PM
Mt. 12:31 Therefore I say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men

Most of the Bible teachers that I respect and whose doctrine I agree with define this as the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. Other passages seem to indicate this as well, such as Heb. 10:26-29.

So, if this is the definition of blasphemy....the willful rejection of Jesus Christ.....wouldn't this, then, apply only to those who have actually heard the Gospel; after all, one cannot reject something that he has no knowledge of.

So, then, what of people who die without hearing the Gospel? If they die without Jesus because they have never heard of Him, and not because they have rejected Him (blasphemy), do you suppose that there is some allowance in God's grace that would cover him, and save his soul? After all, that person will not have committed the unforgivable sin.

But then, the Bible says that a person must be born-again to enter Heaven, which means that if a person dies without Christ, that person will not enter Heaven. If everyone who dies without accepting Jesus (whether they have heard about him or not) is condemned, then the only other alternative is that each and every person who lives, or has ever lived, will get a chance to accept or reject Christ.

This does not seem unplausible to me. I've heard many stories of people who were earnestly seeking God, then God sent a missionary to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Bibel says that the only unforgivable sin is willful rejection of Jesus Christ....not dying in ignorance of Him. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that there is no one who will die without haviing known about Jesus in some way, shape, or form.

What do you guys think?
Blasfemy is when someone make himself like God.

Bless.

Diolectic
Aug 10th 2008, 08:40 PM
Blasphemy against the Holy Spiritis when someone knows the work of the Holy Spirit and still calls it the work of satan as the Pharisees had done.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 10th 2008, 08:52 PM
So, I see that there are a lot of different interpretations of what "blasphemy" is. Could you explain how you have come to accept these definitions?

azheis
Aug 10th 2008, 10:06 PM
There is only one unforgivable unredeemable sin “A sin unto death” that I am aware of.
Our God is able to save to the uttermost but this is one concise sin that there is no redemption for. That is……………….. being born of the devils seed
I know this may sound so absurd, but bear with me and you will see from Jesus’ own words what I am speaking about
Having spent some time and a few years as a ranking priest in this arena I was aware of the children of the devil {those born of the seed of the serpent} Although unaware of it at the time, I could not be born of the devils seed because I had accepted Christ earlier in my childhood.
God literally and undeniably rescued me out from the grips of death when He called me to serve Him………. and how thankful I am. As I grew in the Word I gained an understanding of the adversary and his cohorts, and a greater understanding of the power we as Christians who are born again of Gods seed have.

There is a devil with a host of devil spirits on this earth to disrupt the movement of the Word, and hinder Gods people, his purpose, to steal, kill, and destroy. A spiritual battle is taking place around us daily, not that we should focus on this, for “greater is He that is in you then he that is in the world”{II Cor 4:4}. But you should be aware of who your adversary is, and how he operates, so when conflict does arise you know where it is coming from and how to handle it. Which is the purpose of the nine manifestation of the spirit in I Corinthians 12

Most, if not all of us here are born again of Gods incorruptible seed. This was accomplished by confessing Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. {Romans 10:9 and other scripture} When we accepted Christ as Lord in our lives the great miracle of all times took place “the new birth”. No more a person of body and soul we now have spirit within. That spirit {holy spirit} is the gift, the promise of the Father, incorruptible seed.

Once you have seed you cannot loose it or change it, anymore then you can loose or change the physical seed from your natural birth. I Peter 1:23 speaks of both natural seed which is corruptible and God seed {holy spirit} which is incorruptible
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now, just as you accepted Christ as your Lord, there are those who have accepted the devil as their lord and confessed with their mouth that he is the true god, and thus are born of the seed of the devil. Seed is seed, you cannot change it. Once you accept the devil as your true god, you are born of the devils seed; of coarse it is very different from Gods seed, as the Word declares, there is an end that is coming for the god of this world.
This is not something that is done by accident …..oops! I just made Lucifer lord in my life……. just as making Jesus Christ lord in your life is no accident ……it’s a cognizant decision either way.

Just to clarify: not everybody who is in satanic worship or who practices in the occult is “seed.” Many are not; some are born again Christians {obviously not walking in the light of their calling, and I use the word “Christians”, just to distinguish between the two seeds. They are former Christians born again of Gods seed} some are just a person of body and soul who have not made a commitment either way.

See, I know that these people do exist we are talking about a whole other realm from the physical, and it would shock many of you to know who these people are, and in what positions they are in this world, but there are those who are thinking this is not real; so lets look at scripture.

I am just going to point out a few things in the scripture as I go through but most of this should be pretty much self-explanatory.

Genesis points out the two seeds, the one of the woman which was Christ Galatians 3:16 and the seed of the serpent

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

I John sets the distinction between forgivable and unforgivable sin. It does no good to pray for someone who is sinned unto death {seed of the devil}

I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come

Mark 3:29 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke 12:10b And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Matthew , Mark and Luke set up this full account for us recorded in John, of whom Jesus is again speaking to the same scribes and Pharisees, the ones who had committed the sin against the Holy Ghost.
Note throughout this, that the eyes of there understanding are closed. People of the wrong seed will never understand spiritual truths.



John 8:12-47

12: Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13:The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14:Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15:Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16:And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17:It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18:I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19:Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20:These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21:Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22:Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23:And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24:I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25:Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26:I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27:They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28:Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29:And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30:As he spake these words, many believed on him

Verse 30 tells us why Jesus even bothered to teach. He obviously knew the Pharisees would not believe, but others were present which did believe

31:Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32:And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33:They (the scribes and Pharisee) answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Cont’d

azheis
Aug 10th 2008, 10:07 PM
Unforgivable sin ……page 2

34:Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35:And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36:If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37:I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

They were Abraham’s seed according to the flesh, their physical bloodline.


38:I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

note: the mentioning of two different fathers

39:They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham

note: Jesus agrees in verse 37 that they were of Abraham’s seed then in verse 39 he disputes that. Verse 37 refers to the bloodline verse 39 is speaking of Abrahamic believers.

40:But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41:Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

They just forgot to mention which god. Jesus proceeds to clarify that for them

42:Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43:Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44:Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45:And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46:Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47:He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our Father is God {Elohim} We are His sons and daughters because of the new birth which took place inside us. Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil, and as I mentioned previously seed is seed it cannot be changed. When you are born the first time your physical birth, you have the physical seed of your parents. You cannot change who you are. You can run away from home, change your name, put a bag over your head, but you are still of the physical lineage; that physical seed that was passed on at birth.
When you were born again you are no longer just body and soul, but body, soul, and spirit. You have that seed of God in Christ in you,. And are no longer limited to the senses walk, to walk according to the coarse of this world. We have that spiritual connection we are part of the family of God.

There are others who have decided to take a different route, those who have selected to go the way of darkness, to make the god of this world, their god. Their father is the devil, the deceiver, the author of lies. Their power is real, and much glory and rewards do they receive here on earth ….but that will end. These are the children of the devil, who are born of the devils seed, they have gone the way of Cane, and that sin against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable, unchangeable, and unredeemable; for seed cannot be changed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God Bless
azheis

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 10th 2008, 10:32 PM
Azheis;

How, then, does one inherit this seed of the devil?

BroRog
Aug 10th 2008, 11:49 PM
So, I see that there are a lot of different interpretations of what "blasphemy" is. Could you explain how you have come to accept these definitions?

I believe Dioletic's view is the one with which I agree and it comes from the passage in which the phrase is used. The Pharisees had just witnessed a miracle from God through Jesus and they attributed it to Satan rather than God. This sin is unforgivable because it speaks to the condition of the heart. Such a heart is so hardened against the truth, it will never accept that Jesus is the Messiah no matter how much evidence God presents.

azheis
Aug 11th 2008, 01:59 AM
Azheis;

How, then, does one inherit this seed of the devil?


I was going to remark that one does not inherit and then I started thinking …. Actually that is a very good choice of words; lineage can have a great bearing with some in the satanic and occult realm. And although I don’t know much about it, I had an understanding there was a bloodline “the line of Lucifer” as I recall that was spoken of……… maybe someone else knows more about this. I do not believe this is related to “decedents of Cain”which was more of an illuminati thing.

Anyhow being born of the seed of the serpent is a deliberate action that is taken with full knowledge of what they are doing, just as that is when we accept Christ as our savior. You are giving over your life to your father the devil and he is now your lord. ….how exactly it works I couldn’t tell you anymore than I could tell you how we become born of Gods seed but there is something about the eyes of those who are of seed that is/was very different form those of us who just denounced God Jesus and everything Christian or religious.
One other thing you cannot be born of God, and of the devil, two spiritual seeds cannot occupy the same, so anybody who is born of the devils seed was never born again of the incorruptible seed of God
It’s been a long time, and most of that stuff I hardly ever think about, but I can still spot those of seed to this day…. They are very different from those just possessed ….I just know. I am sure it’s in part due to my walking by the spirit, but also in combination of knowing what I know.
I don’t want to give the impression they are all over the place ….that’s not the case, but they are around …..and every time I encounter one I always confront them …partly just to know if I am right, and partly just to let them know that their end is coming ……

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God Bless
azheis

Firefighter
Aug 11th 2008, 02:19 AM
The Greek word means to "villanize" or attribute an act of God to an act of the devil.

Look at what just happened in the chapter. You simply cannot get "willful rejection of Jesus" out of that text. The only way to do so is to start off with where you want to go and then twist your way there...

βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
1) to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme
2) to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at

Literalist-Luke
Aug 11th 2008, 02:45 AM
Here’s some information about blasphemy and the “unpardonable sin” you might find interesting:

Matthew 12:22-45

Using the Gospel of Matthew as a base, we see that Jesus began His ministry in chapter 4. From chapter 4 until chapter 12, Christ is seen going around Israel proclaiming the Kingdom and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. He performs many miracles, and the purpose of each of these miracles between chapters 4 and 12 is to authenticate His person and His message. They are signs to force the nation of Israel to come to a decision regarding: (1) His person – that He is the Messiah; and, (2) His message – the gospel of the Kingdom. But, then, in Matthew 12, the whole purpose of His miracles and His ministry will undergo a radical change. The rejection of His Messiahship is about to occur.

In Matthew 12:22-29, we read:

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a demon, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, Can this be the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This man doth not cast out demons, but by Beelzebub the prince of the demons. 25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

As we stated earlier, the purpose of the miracles of Jesus was to authenticate to the nation His person and His message. Within Judaism were also exorcists who exorcised demons (v. 27). But in Jewish exorcism, one had to communicate with a demon in order to find out its name and then use that name to cast out the demon. But in the case here, where the demon caused the person to become dumb, Jewish exorcism was of no avail. Communication with the demon was rendered impossible. But Jewish theology taught that when the Messiah came, He would be able to cast out even that kind of demon.

Indeed, in verse 22 of the above passage, Christ was able to exorcise that kind of demon.

In verse 23, this caused the people to begin asking the question, “Can Jesus really be the Messiah?” This was one of the key purposes of this miracle, that they might see that He was indeed the foretold Son of David. The people, however, were not willing to judge His person by themselves but were looking to their religious leaders, the Pharisees, to come up with some kind of public statement or judgment concerning Jesus. They were looking to the Pharisees to conclude either that He was the Messiah or that He was not. But if He was not the Messiah, the Pharisees needed to offer some kind of alternative explanation as to how He was able to perform these many miracles.

In verse 24, we find that the Pharisees chose the latter course. They refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because He did not fit the Pharisaic “mold” or idea of what Messiah was supposed to say and do. Their alternative as to how He was performing His miracles was to say that He Himself was demon-possessed by Beelzebub. This, then, becomes the basis of the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. This is the “leaven of the Pharisees,” the false teaching about which Jesus would warn His disciples. They were to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, i.e., the claim that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather that He was demon-possessed. It was on these grounds that the Pharisees rejected the Messiahship of Christ.

In verses 25-29, Messiah responded to this accusation by telling them that their statement could not be true, as it would mean that Satan’s kingdom was divided against itself.

In verses 30-37, Jesus pronounced judgment on the generation of that day. Verses 30-32 read:

30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. 31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

This is a warning from Jesus that they are treading on very dangerous ground. He says that blaspheming against Him, the “Son of man”, can be forgiven, but if they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, they will have crossed the line. LOTS of people find this confusing, but I think we can find a very reasonable and Biblically sound explanation for this statement.

We must be very clear as to what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. It is the unpardonable sin which was committed by “that generation” of Israel in Jesus’ day. It did NOT involve the denial of Jesus’ Messiahship while He was physically present on this earth on the grounds that He was demon-possessed. This was “speaking a word against the Son of man”, to use Jesus’ own words. Jesus differentiates between that and “blasphemy against the Spirit”. So where does “blasphemy against the Spirit” fit in?

To find the answer, we must go to the book of Acts, specifically Chapters 2 & 7. In chapter 2, we see the famous story of the Holy Spirit coming on the apostles and the resultant speaking in tongues, etc. This was followed in chapters 3-6 by story after story of the Holy Spirit’s testimony to Israel concerning Jesus’ Messiahship. Time and time again miracles occurred as well as radically changed behavior, both in the general group of believers as well as in the apostles themselves, all of which served as testimony to Israel regarding the true Messiahship of Jesus. This was all testimony that came from the Holy Spirit, via the apostles. Then we get to the moment where the line was crossed at Acts 6:8-7:60, the false accusation, trial, and stoning to death of Stephen. Look at this excerpt from Stephen’s testimony before the Sanhedrin:

Acts 7:51-53 - “”You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” ”

By their subsequent stoning Stephen to death, they have now completed the “blasphemy against the Spirit”. And three things now happen at this point that are critical to this discussion.

Acts 8:1-2 - “Saul approved of their killing him (Stephen). On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.”

1. Saul, later to be Paul of course, enters the picture.
2. The Church is scattered, being forcibly moved on to Phase 2 of the Great Commission.
3. The identity of the group of believers is here confirmed by the Scriptures as “The Church”.

Up until this point, the possibility may have still been open that Israel could claim their earthly kingdom under Christ’s leadership. But now, they have committed the “unpardonable sin” and rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit as presented in Acts 2-7, concluding with the testimony of Stephen. When they stoned Stephen, they signed their own death warrants as the viable corporate nation of Israel, not as individuals. (If they had signed their death warrants as individuals, then Saul could not have been saved and become Paul since he played a key role in the murder of Stephen.)

At this point we should look at what Jesus had to say about this “blasphemy against the Spirit”. This sin would be considered unpardonable, requiring judgment. It is a sin that cannot be committed by individuals today. It was a national sin committed by the generation of Jesus’ day; and for that generation, that sin was unpardonable. This did not mean that individual members of that generation could not be saved, for many were saved. It did, however, mean that nothing they could do would avert the coming destruction of Jerusalem once that unpardonable sin was committed. It was a done deal, signed, sealed, and delivered, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.

Rejection of His Messiahship, then, was the unpardonable sin. Judgment was set, and there was no way of alleviating that judgment. It was a judgment that was to be fulfilled in the year A.D. 70.

In Matthew 12:33-37, Messiah emphasized that there was no middle ground in the decision that had been declared regarding His Messiahship. Finally, Jesus tells that generation of Israel that they would be condemned by their own words, saying:

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

We then see later on in Matthew 16 that Jesus is already planning on switching to a new entity: ”On this rock I will build my church...” Not “might” build or even “probably” build, but “will” build. It’s already a done deal. This is because God, in His knowledge of all things past, present, and future, knew that, even though He gave Israel another chance in Acts 2-6, they would reject it and He would wind up turning to the Gentiles.

Consider this: In Matthew 23 we find Christ’s denunciation of the Scribes and Pharisees, the Jewish leadership of that day, for leading the nation in the rejection of His Messiahship:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! (Notice the similarity with Stephen’s testimony in Acts 7:52.) How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house (the Temple) is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Speaking to the Jewish leadership, Christ reiterates His original desire to gather them if they would only accept Him. But due to their rejection of His Messiahship, they will be scattered instead of gathered. Their house, the Jewish Temple, will be destroyed with nothing remaining. He then declares that they will not see Him again until they say, “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”. This is a messianic greeting, and it will signify their acceptance of the Messiahship of Jesus, which will happen at the time of the 2nd Coming.

Messiah will not return until the Jews and the Jewish leaders ask Him to come back. For just as the Jewish leaders led the nation to the rejection of His Messiahship, they must someday lead the nation to the acceptance of that very same fact.

We see this in Hosea 6:1–3

Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence. Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth.

ranman19542002
Aug 11th 2008, 03:10 AM
Mt. 12:31 Therefore I say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men

Most of the Bible teachers that I respect and whose doctrine I agree with define this as the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. Other passages seem to indicate this as well, such as Heb. 10:26-29.

So, if this is the definition of blasphemy....the willful rejection of Jesus Christ.....wouldn't this, then, apply only to those who have actually heard the Gospel; after all, one cannot reject something that he has no knowledge of.

So, then, what of people who die without hearing the Gospel? If they die without Jesus because they have never heard of Him, and not because they have rejected Him (blasphemy), do you suppose that there is some allowance in God's grace that would cover him, and save his soul? After all, that person will not have committed the unforgivable sin.

But then, the Bible says that a person must be born-again to enter Heaven, which means that if a person dies without Christ, that person will not enter Heaven. If everyone who dies without accepting Jesus (whether they have heard about him or not) is condemned, then the only other alternative is that each and every person who lives, or has ever lived, will get a chance to accept or reject Christ.

This does not seem unplausible to me. I've heard many stories of people who were earnestly seeking God, then God sent a missionary to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Bibel says that the only unforgivable sin is willful rejection of Jesus Christ....not dying in ignorance of Him. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that there is no one who will die without haviing known about Jesus in some way, shape, or form.

What do you guys think?
There is no sin that man can do that God will not forgive.
The blasphemey of the Holy Spirit was a national sin not a personal sin.
It could only be committed by the religious leaders of Israel while the Messiah was still on the earth offering the millenial kingdom to them.
They stated that Jesus worked his miracles by the prince of devils beelzebub.
This set in motion the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and nothing could change it.
That was the unpardonable sin.
This teaching that you always had to be afraid you committed the unpardonable sin and didn't know it, always keeps your spiritual life in doubt.
A person who is worried about the unpardonable sin has never committed it.
God is greater than your sins.
When you believe the gospel, Jesus paid the price in full for every sin you will ever commit.
There are some denominations who teach that your sins are forgiven up until the time you are saved and then you are on your own and you need to keep yourself saved by your works after your salvation.
The fear of losing your salvation and committing the unpardonable sin is part of the same package.
Thanks for letting me respond
Randy

RogerW
Aug 11th 2008, 03:22 AM
Mt. 12:31 Therefore I say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men

Most of the Bible teachers that I respect and whose doctrine I agree with define this as the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. Other passages seem to indicate this as well, such as Heb. 10:26-29.

So, if this is the definition of blasphemy....the willful rejection of Jesus Christ.....wouldn't this, then, apply only to those who have actually heard the Gospel; after all, one cannot reject something that he has no knowledge of.

So, then, what of people who die without hearing the Gospel? If they die without Jesus because they have never heard of Him, and not because they have rejected Him (blasphemy), do you suppose that there is some allowance in God's grace that would cover him, and save his soul? After all, that person will not have committed the unforgivable sin.

But then, the Bible says that a person must be born-again to enter Heaven, which means that if a person dies without Christ, that person will not enter Heaven. If everyone who dies without accepting Jesus (whether they have heard about him or not) is condemned, then the only other alternative is that each and every person who lives, or has ever lived, will get a chance to accept or reject Christ.

This does not seem unplausible to me. I've heard many stories of people who were earnestly seeking God, then God sent a missionary to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Bibel says that the only unforgivable sin is willful rejection of Jesus Christ....not dying in ignorance of Him. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that there is no one who will die without haviing known about Jesus in some way, shape, or form.

What do you guys think?

Imagine for a moment that blasphemy is willfully rejecting Christ. Who then could be saved? Doesn't everyone reject Christ prior to salvation. Even Paul speaks of being a blasphemer prior to salvation, but says he was forgiven because he did it in ignorance and unbelief.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

I too agree with Diolectic. The blasphemy that will not be forgiven was that committed by the Pharisee's when they attributed the miracles of God to the devil.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Aug 11th 2008, 07:49 PM
It's already been correctly pointed out what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is, but I wanted to quote the passage and point it out using the scripture itself.

22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

So, a demon possessed man was brought to Jesus and Jesus cast the demon out and healed him. The Pharisees wrongly accused Jesus of casting the demon out by the power of Beelzebub, which is a name for the devil, Satan. But Jesus clarified that He cast out the demon by the power of the Spirit of God. So, the Pharisees blasphemed against the Holy Spirit by attributing work performed by the Spirit of God to Beelzebub (Satan) instead. Therefore, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has to do with attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan or someone else instead.

Friend of I AM
Aug 11th 2008, 08:23 PM
It's already been correctly pointed out what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is, but I wanted to quote the passage and point it out using the scripture itself.

22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

So, a demon possessed man was brought to Jesus and Jesus cast the demon out and healed him. The Pharisees wrongly accused Jesus of casting the demon out by the power of Beelzebub, which is a name for the devil, Satan. But Jesus clarified that He cast out the demon by the power of the Spirit of God. So, the Pharisees blasphemed against the Holy Spirit by attributing work performed by the Spirit of God to Beelzebub (Satan) instead. Therefore, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has to do with attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan or someone else instead.

Remember though, The Pharisees had stated to Christ that they were no longer blind.

John 9:40-41
Then Jesus said, "I have come into this world to judge it, so that those who are blind may see and so that those who see may become blind." And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I don't think Jesus would condemn men who out of ignorance didn't know who he was. For example, he didn't tell the people who were getting ready to stone him that they would not be forgiven, he did tell them that God did not reside within thier hearts due to their unbelief.

We have to understand that only God knows the heart of an individual. Some people are just very ignorant, as oppossed to out right rejecting the truth. Thus, I think the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be truly discerned by God looking at the heart of individual, as oppossed to just going by any random ignorant comment one has made.

RogerW
Aug 11th 2008, 08:44 PM
Remember though, The Pharisees had stated to Christ that they were no longer blind.

John 9:40-41
Then Jesus said, "I have come into this world to judge it, so that those who are blind may see and so that those who see may become blind." And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I don't think Jesus would condemn men who out of ignorance didn't know who he was. For example, he didn't tell the people who were getting ready to stone him that they would not be forgiven, he did tell them that God did not reside within thier hearts due to their unbelief.

We have to understand that only God knows the heart of an individual. Some people are just very ignorant, as oppossed to out right rejecting the truth. Thus, I think the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be truly discerned by God looking at the heart of individual, as oppossed to just going by any random ignorant comment one has made.

But the Pharisee's did know who Christ was. This is why the blasphemy they committed is not forgiven. They knew that Jesus had come from God, and that the miracles He performed were only possible because God was with Him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

The wicked heart of the Pharisee's is exposed. They were jealous because Christ was drawing many to Himself, and exposing their hypocrisy, so all who had once looked to the Pharisee's (teachers of the law) were now seeking Christ, and they were jealous. Even though they know exactly Who sent Christ, and by Whose power He did these great miracles, they would rather falsely accuse Christ then to accept that their fame was gone forever...knowingly guilty!

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Aug 11th 2008, 08:49 PM
Remember though, The Pharisees had stated to Christ that they were no longer blind.

John 9:40-41
Then Jesus said, "I have come into this world to judge it, so that those who are blind may see and so that those who see may become blind." And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I don't think Jesus would condemn men who out of ignorance didn't know who he was. For example, he didn't tell the people who were getting ready to stone him that they would not be forgiven, he did tell them that God did not reside within thier hearts due to their unbelief.

We have to understand that only God knows the heart of an individual. Some people are just very ignorant, as oppossed to out right rejecting the truth. Thus, I think the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be truly discerned by God looking at the heart of individual, as oppossed to just going by any random ignorant comment one has made.Are you saying you disagree with my post then or...? I can't quite tell what point you're making exactly. If you're just saying that it's not for us to say who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit then I would mostly agree, although I do believe Jesus was saying that the Pharisees were guilty of it when they attributed the casting out of the demons to Beelzebub rather than the Holy Spirit. This isn't to say that you or I can know who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit and who isn't. Like you said, only God knows the heart of an individual.

Friend of I AM
Aug 11th 2008, 09:05 PM
But the Pharisee's did know who Christ was. This is why the blasphemy they committed is not forgiven. They knew that Jesus had come from God, and that the miracles He performed were only possible because God was with Him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

The wicked heart of the Pharisee's is exposed. They were jealous because Christ was drawing many to Himself, and exposing their hypocrisy, so all who had once looked to the Pharisee's (teachers of the law) were now seeking Christ, and they were jealous. Even though they know exactly Who sent Christ, and by Whose power He did these great miracles, they would rather falsely accuse Christ then to accept that their fame was gone forever...knowingly guilty!

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,

I actually had a discussion about this a bit ago in another thread, and I came to the conclusion that they really had no excuse to not know who he was..based on the miracles he had performed and his testimonies - but they truly didn't know who he was, because they were blinded by an evil spirit of pride and unbelief. Here are scriptures we can use to prove this.


Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders


Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?"
"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards replied.
"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them." Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, "Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?" They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee."


John 8:13-25

So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.
"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
"I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

So the Pharisees did not truly know who Jesus was, due to pride clouding their judgement. They were more worried about Jesus upsetting their power base than they were about him being the messiah. So their ignorance wasn't really excusable, it was more or less brought on by pride. This is similar to how Pharoah stated that "he was God" and that he was the one who had parted the red sea. Like Pharoah, God had given the Pharisees hearts over to an evil state of unbelief.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Aug 11th 2008, 09:20 PM
Are you saying you disagree with my post then or...? I can't quite tell what point you're making exactly. If you're just saying that it's not for us to say who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit then I would mostly agree, although I do believe Jesus was saying that the Pharisees were guilty of it when they attributed the casting out of the demons to Beelzebub rather than the Holy Spirit. This isn't to say that you or I can know who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit and who isn't. Like you said, only God knows the heart of an individual.

I'm saying that we need to be careful in likening all situations to that of the Pharisees regarding this sin. Sin is a matter of heart as well as actions, thus not every situation will play out the same as the Pharisees regarding this type of sin. They were basically accussed of it because their hearts were hardened by pride, which put them in an evil state of unbelief. You also have to take into account that Jesus had the knowledge of these men being those who would hand him over to be killed. Thus one can surmise with this knowledge he was basically calling them on this sin ahead of time so they could never say "we didn't know we were guilty of any sin" before God and act like they were innocent.

Moving on, as another poster has stated we have all come from a point of unbelief at some point in our walks - and I'm sure we've all stated foolish things before God and men that we would regret. There are people out there with extremely weak consciences, who will condemn themselves simply based on being in a state of unbelief before coming to Christ, and then think they are guilty of commiting this sin due to having said something foolish before God had brought them to him. So it's important that we look at the scripture in it's complete context, before we state that every situation from that point on in our walks will be similar to that of which we've read in the scriptures.

In Christ,

Stephen

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 01:42 AM
Hey Roger,

I actually had a discussion about this a bit ago in another thread, and I came to the conclusion that they really had no excuse to not know who he was..based on the miracles he had performed and his testimonies - but they truly didn't know who he was, because they were blinded by an evil spirit of pride and unbelief. Here are scriptures we can use to prove this.

Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders

Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and the Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?"
"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards replied.
"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them." Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, "Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing?" They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee."

John 8:13-25

So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.
"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
"I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

So the Pharisees did not truly know who Jesus was, due to pride clouding their judgement. They were more worried about Jesus upsetting their power base than they were about him being the messiah. So their ignorance wasn't really excusable, it was more or less brought on by pride. This is similar to how Pharoah stated that "he was God" and that he was the one who had parted the red sea. Like Pharoah, God had given the Pharisees hearts over to an evil state of unbelief.

In Christ,

Stephen

Greetings Stephen,

I hear what you are saying, and I agree they were blind and did not truly know who Jesus was. But it does not matter that the did not truly know who Jesus was to make them guilty of committing blasphemy. Even though they may not have known Jesus, they still knew Who sent Him (God), and that no one could do the miracles Christ did except God be with him. This is what made them guilty, they knew Christ came from God, and performed miracles through the power of God, and still they falsely attributed Christ's miracles to the devil. This is the sin that will not be forgiven.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Aug 13th 2008, 02:24 PM
Hey Roger,

Yeah, I had an in depth discussion about this in another thread. They were indeed ignorant of who he was, as they did not think of him as the literal messiah. Stating that Jesus is a teacher/prophet is all good and true, but in order to blaspheme the spirit, they had to not believe he was the literal messiah who would take away their sins. We can see this in the following verses that I posted above:

John 8:21-24
Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

But as stated before their ignorance was not forgivable, due to the fact that they were clouded by pride as oppossed to not being given all of the signs of who he was. Also take note that they were the keepers of the law and as Jesus had put it - he had put them in "Moses's seat." Thus they were held to a higher standard than others. Unfortunately with this power and position, they sought to glorify themselves rather than God.

Jesus's siloloquy before his disciples in Matthew 23 basically attests to all of what I've posted above. He even mentions that he sent all of the miracles/wonders/prophets before the Pharisees so that they would be convicted of their sin of pride, despite their ignorance of knowing who he was.

Relating back to the spirit of the thread, you can see in John 8:48-59 that Jesus does not convict those Jews who call him "demon possessed" of blasphemy due to their sin being out of misguided ignorance(attributable largely to the Pharisees leading them astray with their testimony)

So again, as I stated in my other post..this sin(blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is something that can only be primarily discerned by God, as it has to do with the heart of the individual, and their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior.

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 04:47 PM
I'm saying that we need to be careful in likening all situations to that of the Pharisees regarding this sin. Sin is a matter of heart as well as actions, thus not every situation will play out the same as the Pharisees regarding this type of sin. They were basically accussed of it because their hearts were hardened by pride, which put them in an evil state of unbelief. You also have to take into account that Jesus had the knowledge of these men being those who would hand him over to be killed. Thus one can surmise with this knowledge he was basically calling them on this sin ahead of time so they could never say "we didn't know we were guilty of any sin" before God and act like they were innocent.

Moving on, as another poster has stated we have all come from a point of unbelief at some point in our walks - and I'm sure we've all stated foolish things before God and men that we would regret. There are people out there with extremely weak consciences, who will condemn themselves simply based on being in a state of unbelief before coming to Christ, and then think they are guilty of commiting this sin due to having said something foolish before God had brought them to him. So it's important that we look at the scripture in it's complete context, before we state that every situation from that point on in our walks will be similar to that of which we've read in the scriptures.

In Christ,

StephenI believe Jesus clearly indicated that the Pharisees committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by attributing the miracles Jesus performed by the power of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub instead. In other words, the Pharisees credited Beelzebub (Satan) for the miracles instead of the Holy Spirit. That was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So, based on that example, can't we conclude that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is committed when one attributes the work of the Holy Spirit to the work of the devil instead?

Blasphemy against the Spirit can't be when someone rejects Christ, because blasphemy against the Spirit can't be forgiven. Jesus said that blasphemy against the Son of man could be forgiven.

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is just that: against the Holy Spirit. Not against Christ. Jesus said, "whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him". He also said, "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him"? What does that mean? Well, the Pharisees spoke against the Holy Spirit by attributing the casting out of demons that Jesus did by the Spirit's power to Beelzebub instead. They didn't blaspheme against Christ in that case. They blasphemed against the Holy Spirit by having the gall to credit Beelzebub for doing the work that the Holy Spirit performed.

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 05:15 PM
Hey Roger,

Yeah, I had an in depth discussion about this in another thread. They were indeed ignorant of who he was, as they did not think of him as the literal messiah. Stating that Jesus is a teacher/prophet is all good and true, but in order to blaspheme the spirit, they had to not believe he was the literal messiah who would take away their sins. We can see this in the following verses that I posted above:

John 8:21-24
Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

But as stated before their ignorance was not forgivable, due to the fact that they were clouded by pride as oppossed to not being given all of the signs of who he was. Also take note that they were the keepers of the law and as Jesus had put it - he had put them in "Moses's seat." Thus they were held to a higher standard than others. Unfortunately with this power and position, they sought to glorify themselves rather than God.

Jesus's siloloquy before his disciples in Matthew 23 basically attests to all of what I've posted above. He even mentions that he sent all of the miracles/wonders/prophets before the Pharisees so that they would be convicted of their sin of pride, despite their ignorance of knowing who he was.

Relating back to the spirit of the thread, you can see in John 8:48-59 that Jesus does not convict those Jews who call him "demon possessed" of blasphemy due to their sin being out of misguided ignorance(attributable largely to the Pharisees leading them astray with their testimony)

So again, as I stated in my other post..this sin(blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is something that can only be primarily discerned by God, as it has to do with the heart of the individual, and their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior.

The Pharisee's did not die in their sins because they did not know Christ, or another way of saying because they rejected Christ. Read what John146 has posted carefully. Rejection or lacking knowledge of Christ is NOT what condemnes, for this is forgivable. To knowingly attribute to the devil the works of the Holy Spirit is what will never be forgiven.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Aug 13th 2008, 05:37 PM
I believe Jesus clearly indicated that the Pharisees committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by attributing the miracles Jesus performed by the power of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub instead. In other words, the Pharisees credited Beelzebub (Satan) for the miracles instead of the Holy Spirit.


Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying/unbelief of the salvific power/grace of Christ Jesus being the Messiah. Jesus's conviction of the Pharisees was two part, their words as well as what was in their hearts convicted them. That being said look at the following verses...

John 8:48-59

Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


Ask yourself the question, why didn't Jesus immediately convict these Jews in the same way he had the Pharisees of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? They were certainly guilty of such a sin based on their accussations of Jesus being demon possessed. The logical answer to this question would most likely be because they were grossly ignorant, and had been misguided by the testimony of their religious leaders - thus they weren't guilty of this sin at this point, as their hearts weren't completely hardened to the point of rejecting the truth. We can see in John 9:14-21 that some of the Jews who were initially deceived by the Pharisees testimony of Jesus, actually began to have faith and believe he was the messiah due to the miracles he performed, but were too afraid to support him because of fear that they would be put out of the synagogues.

John 9:14-21
Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."

Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided. Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened."
The man replied, "He is a prophet."
The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. "Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"
"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.


In Christ,

Stephen

Mograce2U
Aug 13th 2008, 05:45 PM
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is just that: against the Holy Spirit. Not against Christ. Jesus said, "whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him". He also said, "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him"? What does that mean? Well, the Pharisees spoke against the Holy Spirit by attributing the casting out of demons that Jesus did by the Spirit's power to Beelzebub instead. They didn't blaspheme against Christ in that case. They blasphemed against the Holy Spirit by having the gall to credit Beelzebub for doing the work that the Holy Spirit performed.I think this is an important distinction to make. Israel had been cutoff in their unbelief for the cross to occur, and yet Romans 10 tells how they would be brought back in by faith. But the testimony of the Holy Spirit was the evidence the promise had arrived. And those men who blasphemied His witness to Israel, would not be forgiven for denying what was given by God as proof that Jesus brought this promise to them. Which was not only about casting out demons, healing the blind and the lame, but also about raising the dead. These same men also wanted to kill Lazarus and therefore deny that Jesus had this power by the Spirit that was in Him. And the children of the apostates continue to do this today, denying the very hope that Israel was promised in their redemption.

Friend of I AM
Aug 13th 2008, 06:00 PM
I think this is an important distinction to make. Israel had been cutoff in their unbelief for the cross to occur, and yet Romans 10 tells how they would be brought back in by faith. But the testimony of the Holy Spirit was the evidence the promise had arrived. And those men who blasphemied His witness to Israel, would not be forgiven for denying what was given by God as proof that Jesus brought this promise to them. Which was not only about casting out demons, healing the blind and the lame, but also about raising the dead. These same men also wanted to kill Lazarus and therefore deny that Jesus had this power by the Spirit that was in Him. And the children of the apostates continue to do this today, denying the very hope that Israel was promised in their redemption.

Those are good points Mo. The Pharisees were indeed judged by harsher standards as they were Teacher's of the law, and as you've shown us above they did some really wicked things with the hope of discrediting Jesus's testimony. Their actions demonstrated by far that even despite their ignorance, they had no good intentions of anyone whom they thought was going to upset their power base.

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 06:31 PM
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying/unbelief of the salvific power/grace of Christ Jesus being the Messiah.Then I guess everyone has committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and can never be forgiven for it because we all are in unbelief before we ever believe and are saved. Why wouldn't you want to at least partially use the passage (Matthew 12:22-32) in which we find the mention of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to define what it means?


Jesus's conviction of the Pharisees was two part, their words as well as what was in their hearts convicted them. That being said look at the following verses...

John 8:48-59

Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Ask yourself the question, why didn't Jesus immediately convict these Jews in the same way he had the Pharisees of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? They were certainly guilty of such a sin based on their accussations of Jesus being demon possessed. The logical answer to this question would most likely be because they were grossly ignorant, and had been misguided by the testimony of their religious leaders - thus they weren't guilty of this sin at this point, as their hearts weren't completely hardened to the point of rejecting the truth.While we don't see Jesus, in this passage you quoted, saying that they had commited blasphemy against the Spirit, we also don't see Him saying that they didn't commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It appears that you are making an argument from silence here.


We can see in John 9:14-21 that some of the Jews who were initially deceived by the Pharisees testimony of Jesus, actually began to have faith and believe he was the messiah due to the miracles he performed, but were too afraid to support him because of fear that they would be put out of the synagogues.

John 9:14-21
Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."

Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided. Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened."
The man replied, "He is a prophet."
The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. "Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"
"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.

In Christ,

Stephen Another argument from silence. Where does it say here that any of the Pharisees who questioned how a sinner could have done such miracles had ever previously accused Jesus of performing miracles by the power of Beelzebub rather than the power of the Holy Spirit?

Does Matthew 12:22-32 not have anything to say about what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means? Do we have to look elsewhere to find out what it means? If so, why? It seems like we'd want to start with Matthew 12:22-32 to determine what it means and go from there rather than solely trying to rely on other scriptures to define what it means, even though no other scripture passage even mentions it.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 07:11 PM
alot of good responses here. maybe I can add to some.

Blasphemy is attributing to someone else the work of the holy spirit. another way to look at it is to say you disagree with what the holy spirit says and does. and instead give credit to someone else.

and can also be translated to "speak evil of, or to believe differently ( to dissent from what the person says )

Jesus said he did nothing, or said nothing that did not come from the father. Everything he did and said came from the holy spirit. it is one thing to call Christ a liar. or to say he did soemthing by someone elses power but the holy spirits. but it is another to call the holy spirit a liar.

scripture says the holy spirit will convict the whole world of righteousness, judgment and

John 18: 8 - 11 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

He will bring everyone to the moral consciousness of a god. and moral judgment because of this. however, not everyone will want to know who christ is. or the truth. thus even though the Holy Spirit trys to get them to understand they need a savior. a person can block it out and want nothing to do with it. In this case. They may never hear verbally the gospel from someone else. However, they will still have no excuse. they have rejected the Holy Spirits conviction. and chose to blaspheme, or dissent from what the holy spirit is attempting to show them.

how many times has a missionary gone somplace never before hearing the gospel that the people said they were told someone would come talk to them? I know of many such accounts.

thus the unpardonable sin is to reject Christ. rejecting Christ and his true gospel is to call the holy spirit a liar.

remember in the book of Galations, Paul said there is but one gospel. if anyone adds or subtracts anything to it they were to be anathema'd or damned. the reason is because anyone who places their faith in the false gospel has basically said the Holy Spirit did not know what he was saying. he is attributing their belief as correct, replacing the words the holy spirit gave.

as for we have all done it. yes, we all were born in sin. but we all also have been given the ability to come to christ. We have until death to make this decision. anyone who dies never having recieved the true gospel. and eternal life. has died under eternal sin which can never be forgive.

hope this helps.

Friend of I AM
Aug 13th 2008, 10:27 PM
thus the unpardonable sin is to reject Christ. rejecting Christ and his true gospel is to call the holy spirit a liar.


Exactly Right! This is essentially what I've been saying all along. Just wanted to add this verse to what you've posted.

This is a work of God, that you have faith in him who he sent.

Thus to not believe that Jesus is the Christ is essentially denying the very work of God(the lamb) that takes away your sins and offers you salvation!

So the truth of the matter is that the very work of God on the cross, is a work of the Holy Spirit. Thus if we deny this work as being salvific, we've essentially commited the unpardonable sin. This is why Jesus stated to the Pharisees in John 8 "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Still one does need to be careful with our words, seeing as how as Jesus states our words can condemn or save us. The Pharisees though were held to a higher standard than the rest of the Jews who stated Jesus was "demon possessed", specifically because they were the teachers of the law, as well as already admitted to Jesus that they were no longer blind in John 9(albeit inadvertently and out of pride).

In Christ,

Stephen

PS. John146 I hope this post as well as Bryans answers your questions, if not feel free to let me know.

IMINXTC
Aug 14th 2008, 02:09 AM
Blasphemy against the Holy Spiritis when someone knows the work of the Holy Spirit and still calls it the work of satan as the Pharisees had done.

Yeah, I meet so many who are tortured by this...Certainly our Lord was addressing unbelieving Israel, who, as an example to all nations, having seen the obvious confirmation of the Holy Spirit, accused The Holy Spirit of being evil?

"Woe unto thee Chorazin! woe unto the Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes... But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." Mt11:22&24

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 14th 2008, 03:40 AM
Here’s some information about blasphemy and the “unpardonable sin” you might find interesting:

Matthew 12:22-45

Using the Gospel of Matthew as a base, we see that Jesus began His ministry in chapter 4. From chapter 4 until chapter 12, Christ is seen going around Israel proclaiming the Kingdom and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. He performs many miracles, and the purpose of each of these miracles between chapters 4 and 12 is to authenticate His person and His message. They are signs to force the nation of Israel to come to a decision regarding: (1) His person – that He is the Messiah; and, (2) His message – the gospel of the Kingdom. But, then, in Matthew 12, the whole purpose of His miracles and His ministry will undergo a radical change. The rejection of His Messiahship is about to occur.

In Matthew 12:22-29, we read:

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a demon, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, Can this be the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This man doth not cast out demons, but by Beelzebub the prince of the demons. 25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

As we stated earlier, the purpose of the miracles of Jesus was to authenticate to the nation His person and His message. Within Judaism were also exorcists who exorcised demons (v. 27). But in Jewish exorcism, one had to communicate with a demon in order to find out its name and then use that name to cast out the demon. But in the case here, where the demon caused the person to become dumb, Jewish exorcism was of no avail. Communication with the demon was rendered impossible. But Jewish theology taught that when the Messiah came, He would be able to cast out even that kind of demon.

Indeed, in verse 22 of the above passage, Christ was able to exorcise that kind of demon.

In verse 23, this caused the people to begin asking the question, “Can Jesus really be the Messiah?” This was one of the key purposes of this miracle, that they might see that He was indeed the foretold Son of David. The people, however, were not willing to judge His person by themselves but were looking to their religious leaders, the Pharisees, to come up with some kind of public statement or judgment concerning Jesus. They were looking to the Pharisees to conclude either that He was the Messiah or that He was not. But if He was not the Messiah, the Pharisees needed to offer some kind of alternative explanation as to how He was able to perform these many miracles.

In verse 24, we find that the Pharisees chose the latter course. They refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because He did not fit the Pharisaic “mold” or idea of what Messiah was supposed to say and do. Their alternative as to how He was performing His miracles was to say that He Himself was demon-possessed by Beelzebub. This, then, becomes the basis of the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. This is the “leaven of the Pharisees,” the false teaching about which Jesus would warn His disciples. They were to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, i.e., the claim that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather that He was demon-possessed. It was on these grounds that the Pharisees rejected the Messiahship of Christ.

WOW!!!

Yes, your post certainly clears up a lot.

I was not aware of the prediction that only the Messiah would be able to cast out demons from mute people. This makes perfect sense, as the Pharisees then had no excuse for rejecting Christ as their Messiah.

So, then, this adds a whole new element to this account....by attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan here, they were, in essence, rejecting Christ as Messiah, as they were finding any excuse not to accept Him as their Messiah . It appears that this rejection is the basis
for Christ's comments on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and not the attributing of the works. It seems they attributed the works to Satan because they did not want to accept Christ as Messiah, and not vice-versa.

Someone had mentioned that some of the Pharisees may have been truly ignorant, and they were not rejecting Christ out of envy or self-preservation; and in that case, God judges the heart. To a certain extent, I agree.

In a sense, I agree, but I also believe that in order for this to have happened, they would have had to have willfully hardened their hearts to the truth, at one intial point, in order for the enemy to create this kind of deception.

We all know that the Lord can harden a person's heart so as that person is blinded to the truth, as He did in the case of Pharoah, for example....but in order for this to happen, there has to be an initial hardening, or rejection, by the person whose heart is hardened.

So then, even if the Pharisees were blinded by deception, I do believe that in order to fall to such a grave deception these men must have had to harden their hearts to the point where this deception could take over.

We all know that people who don't know Christ are deceived, but for the most part, this deception comes as a result of continually rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit....a person's heart becomes hardened, and they become deceived. So then, even if the Pharisees were deceived , it was because of their initial response, and as such, they were not held blameless by the Lord, because they gave into this deception by hardening their hearts.

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 04:39 AM
Diolectic is correct. If I may embellish his statement a bit, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to occur over time. It doesn't appear to be a one time event. It involves spurning the Holy Spirit, whose role it is to reveal Christ, convict people of sin, and regenerate them. Once he's out of the equation, there's no way the individual can be saved. Christian need not worry about committing the unpardonable sin. Paul explicitly states, "Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (2 Corinthians 5:5, NIV)

Mograce2U
Aug 14th 2008, 06:17 PM
There was also another witness of the Holy Spirit they falsely accused - at Pentecost.

(Acts 2:7-13 KJV) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? {8} And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? {9} Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, {10} Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, {11} Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. {12} And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? {13} Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Yet Israel's hope in the new covenant for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was shown in Jeremiah:

(Jer 13:12 KJV) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?

(Jer 31:12 KJV) Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

Here at Pentecost we see the men of Israel who had been scattered into the nations gathered for this event. Yet some still mocked, even though it was the hope affirmed to them through Jeremiah when they went into captivity at Babylon which concerned the BRANCH who was to come.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 06:52 PM
Diolectic is correct. If I may embellish his statement a bit, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to occur over time. It doesn't appear to be a one time event. It involves spurning the Holy Spirit, whose role it is to reveal Christ, convict people of sin, and regenerate them. Once he's out of the equation, there's no way the individual can be saved. Christian need not worry about committing the unpardonable sin. Paul explicitly states, "Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (2 Corinthians 5:5, NIV)

remember one thing. When they claimed jesus did his miracles under the power of satan. Jesus did not come out and say they were condemned. He warned them that if they did not change. they would be condemned.

so yes. it is an ongoing thing. excelent post!

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 07:02 PM
That sounds great, but that is still not what happened.

Here is a question for you. If blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting Christ (which does not even make sense), why would Jesus forgive someone for speaking against Himself?

Luk 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew gives us a more clear picture of exactly what Jesus is referring to...

Mat 12:32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now how on earth can you possibly think that it is rejecting Christ? If it is then what is speaking against the Son of Man???

Friend of I AM
Aug 14th 2008, 07:22 PM
That sounds great, but that is still not what happened.

Here is a question for you. If blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting Christ (which does not even make sense), why would Jesus forgive someone for speaking against Himself?

Luk 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew gives us a more clear picture of exactly what Jesus is referring to...

Mat 12:32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now how on earth can you possibly think that it is rejecting Christ? If it is then what is speaking against the Son of Man???


Was there ever a point in which Jesus wasn't filled/being directed by/or lead by the Holy Spirit? And how can one reject Jesus as being the Christ, and then be saved?

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 07:34 PM
The two concepts seem to go hand-in-hand. The key difference seems to lie, as I said, in the Holy Spirit's role as the one who reveals Christ, convicts people of sin, and sanctifies them. Without his work, how can anyone even realize the depth of their sin against a holy God and even be regenerated at all?

Friend of I AM
Aug 14th 2008, 07:43 PM
The two concepts seem to go hand-in-hand. The key difference seems to lie, as I said, in the Holy Spirit's role as the one who reveals Christ, convicts people of sin, and sanctifies them. Without his work, how can anyone even realize the depth of their sin against a holy God and even be regenerated at all?

Makes sense, so the spirit of God testifies of whom Christ is. Therefore one cannot reject the spirit of truth and even believe Christ as being the Messiah, since they have essentially just rejected the truth...

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 08:19 PM
Now how on earth can you possibly think that it is rejecting Christ? If it is then what is speaking against the Son of Man???


Christ said he did not come on his own. he also stated the words he spoke did not come from him but from the father.

if you call him a liar it is one thing. and foolish since he claimed he did not speak on his own behalf, or else you are saying he was not truthfull about where he got his words.

however. when you call what he said false. then you are calling the one who told him what to say, the holy spirit, a liar.

in other words. offending the messenger is one thing. but offending the one who gave the message is a totally different thing.

does this make sense??

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 19th 2008, 05:13 AM
In verses 30-37, Jesus pronounced judgment on the generation of that day. Verses 30-32 read:

30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. 31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

This is a warning from Jesus that they are treading on very dangerous ground. He says that blaspheming against Him, the “Son of man”, can be forgiven, but if they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, they will have crossed the line. LOTS of people find this confusing, but I think we can find a very reasonable and Biblically sound explanation for this statement.

We must be very clear as to what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. It is the unpardonable sin which was committed by “that generation” of Israel in Jesus’ day. It did NOT involve the denial of Jesus’ Messiahship while He was physically present on this earth on the grounds that He was demon-possessed. This was “speaking a word against the Son of man”, to use Jesus’ own words. Jesus differentiates between that and “blasphemy against the Spirit”. So where does “blasphemy against the Spirit” fit in?

To find the answer, we must go to the book of Acts, specifically Chapters 2 & 7. In chapter 2, we see the famous story of the Holy Spirit coming on the apostles and the resultant speaking in tongues, etc. This was followed in chapters 3-6 by story after story of the Holy Spirit’s testimony to Israel concerning Jesus’ Messiahship. Time and time again miracles occurred as well as radically changed behavior, both in the general group of believers as well as in the apostles themselves, all of which served as testimony to Israel regarding the true Messiahship of Jesus. This was all testimony that came from the Holy Spirit, via the apostles. Then we get to the moment where the line was crossed at Acts 6:8-7:60, the false accusation, trial, and stoning to death of Stephen. Look at this excerpt from Stephen’s testimony before the Sanhedrin:

Acts 7:51-53 - “”You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” ”

By their subsequent stoning Stephen to death, they have now completed the “blasphemy against the Spirit”. And three things now happen at this point that are critical to this discussion.

Acts 8:1-2 - “Saul approved of their killing him (Stephen). On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.”

1. Saul, later to be Paul of course, enters the picture.
2. The Church is scattered, being forcibly moved on to Phase 2 of the Great Commission.
3. The identity of the group of believers is here confirmed by the Scriptures as “The Church”.

Up until this point, the possibility may have still been open that Israel could claim their earthly kingdom under Christ’s leadership. But now, they have committed the “unpardonable sin” and rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit as presented in Acts 2-7, concluding with the testimony of Stephen. When they stoned Stephen, they signed their own death warrants as the viable corporate nation of Israel, not as individuals. (If they had signed their death warrants as individuals, then Saul could not have been saved and become Paul since he played a key role in the murder of Stephen.)

I've been thinking about this statement, and I wonder.....if Israel, as a nation, signed their own death warrants as the viable corporate nation of Israel, would this support Replacement Theology?

After all, if Israel, as a nation, committed blasphemy, wouldn't this make it impossible for God to redeem them as a nation?

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:28 AM
There is no sin that man can do that God will not forgive.
The blasphemey of the Holy Spirit was a national sin not a personal sin.
It could only be committed by the religious leaders of Israel while the Messiah was still on the earth offering the millenial kingdom to them.
They stated that Jesus worked his miracles by the prince of devils beelzebub.
This set in motion the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and nothing could change it.
That was the unpardonable sin.
This teaching that you always had to be afraid you committed the unpardonable sin and didn't know it, always keeps your spiritual life in doubt.
A person who is worried about the unpardonable sin has never committed it.
God is greater than your sins.
When you believe the gospel, Jesus paid the price in full for every sin you will ever commit.
There are some denominations who teach that your sins are forgiven up until the time you are saved and then you are on your own and you need to keep yourself saved by your works after your salvation.
The fear of losing your salvation and committing the unpardonable sin is part of the same package.
Thanks for letting me respond
Randy


This is the correct answer.