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Bladers
Aug 11th 2008, 04:57 AM
There has been alot of talk about what happens when we die. Do we sleep till Christ comes back?

Even though the scriptures have proven we dont, for it says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". So has other scriptures have explained it.


But, Jesus recently revealed this passage of the scripture to me, to clearify everything. Its was as clear as day light.

KJV [†] Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We are dust and when we die, we will return to dust, then our spirit will leave our body. Then we will ascend to God to be judged (Ecclesiastes 12:14)

Millions of souls are burning in hell right this second, millions....

scourge39
Aug 11th 2008, 06:58 AM
It's not as cut and dried as you make it out to be. You have to account for the many passages that describe the dead as sleeping, such as the dead girl in Matthew 9:24//Mark 5:39//Luke 8:52, Lazarus in John 11:11, Stephen in Acts 7:60, some Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians 11:30, 15:6, & 15:18, and some Thessalonian believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15, and 5:6, 10. No one has exhaustive knowledge of the intermediate state (the state of the soul between death and resurrection), but we should do our best to account for all the relevant passages. Sleep may be just a euphemism for death, or something more. Those who believe in soul sleep simply would incorporate 2 Corinthians 5:8 into their schema by saying that one need not be conscious in order to be in the Lord's presence. While tradition is on the side of the belief that the soul resides in heaven upon physical death, which I personally uphold, you can't simply dismiss the passages that use sleep to describe death and side with a few others which seem to be in more agreement with your personal understanding. I seriously doubt that God directed you to read three passages to the exclusion of the others that are equally relevant and inspired, and somehow 'settled' the matter.

Ecclesiastes 12:7, 14 are not making a sharp distinction between body and soul. Such a dichotomy is foreign to Jewish thought. Qoheleth is simply declaring that living is impossible without the breath of life that God gives to humans. Once it's taken away, the body returns to dust. Judaism's belief in an afterlife was not fully developed until sometime after the writing of Ecclesiastes, or Proverbs for that matter. Those books, though every bit as inspired as the Gospels and Paul's Epistles, must be understood in light of the understanding that existed among people at the time that they were written. We can't impose our modern understanding upon such ancient texts.

markedward
Aug 11th 2008, 12:41 PM
As I understand... the Hebrew word for "spirit" also means "breath." In that case, that Ecclesiastes says the "the spirit shall return to the God who gave it" could easily be a mistranslation of "the breath shall return to the God who gave it."

Thus, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the breath shall return unto God who gave it" would be making a wholly direct reference to the creation of Adam, who was formed from dust and God breathed life into Him.

threebigrocks
Aug 11th 2008, 12:51 PM
As I understand... the Hebrew word for "spirit" also means "breath." In that case, that Ecclesiastes says the "the spirit shall return to the God who gave it" could easily be a mistranslation of "the breath shall return to the God who gave it."

Thus, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the breath shall return unto God who gave it" would be making a wholly direct reference to the creation of Adam, who was formed from dust and God breathed life into Him.

Scripture is God breathed, and as you stated from Genesis 2 the spirit was breathed into man after making him from the dirt. So I guess I'm a bit confused as to your comment about translation and the reference to Adam. They seem to contradict. Could you clarify?

threebigrocks
Aug 11th 2008, 12:54 PM
Just as a reminder: per the board rules, the soul sleep doctrine is off limits. Let's keep that in mind from here on out, okay?

Philipians 1

1For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Bladers
Aug 11th 2008, 01:29 PM
Scripture is God breathed, and as you stated from Genesis 2 the spirit was breathed into man after making him from the dirt. So I guess I'm a bit confused as to your comment about translation and the reference to Adam. They seem to contradict. Could you clarify?

Yes indeed that same spirit will return to God whether it did good or bad. The book of revelation confirms it

[†] KJV [†] Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


this is saying that people who die without knowing Jesus goes to hell, therefore hell delivered up the dead which are in them.

Which means millions of people are beening tormented in hell right this sec...

threebigrocks
Aug 11th 2008, 01:54 PM
Yes indeed that same spirit will return to God whether it did good or bad. The book of revelation confirms it

[] KJV [] Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


this is saying that people who die without knowing Jesus goes to hell, therefore hell delivered up the dead which are in them.

Which means millions of people are beening tormented in hell right this sec...

All are bodily raised up at the time of final judgment at the great white throne, where body and spirit are raised incorruptible. Just as believers are present with the Lord upon death those who are not are separated from His presence. Then, judgment for eternity is made, where either it's eternal damnation or eternal salvation.

Bladers
Aug 11th 2008, 02:05 PM
All are bodily raised up at the time of final judgment at the great white throne, where body and spirit are raised incorruptible. Just as believers are present with the Lord upon death those who are not are separated from His presence. Then, judgment for eternity is made, where either it's eternal damnation or eternal salvation.


Your right on point, but spirit is already incorruptible, its eternal.
If we believers are present with God (in heaven), then we that are not believers are away from God (in hell) till the Day of the Lord.

legoman
Aug 11th 2008, 07:10 PM
Yes indeed that same spirit will return to God whether it did good or bad. The book of revelation confirms it

[] KJV [] Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


this is saying that people who die without knowing Jesus goes to hell, therefore hell delivered up the dead which are in them.

Which means millions of people are beening tormented in hell right this sec...

Hi,

I'm not sure that is correct. How do you reconcile that with these verses?:


"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)


"Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Heb: sheol], where you go" (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

There are other verses where death is compared to sleep (Deuteronomy 31:16, Psalm 13:3, John 11:11, etc.)

These verses would indicate that when you die, you don't know anything, and are not aware of your death. Presumably you stay dead until the resurrection and then judgment occurs.

Mike CP King
Aug 11th 2008, 09:43 PM
Psalm 88

10 Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do those who are dead rise up and praise you?
Selah
11 Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=88&version=31#fen-NIV-15320d)] ? 12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,
or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

Just for the record, the Hebrews believed on physical deaqth they were no longer Nephesh, but 'Rephaim in Sheol' where death is not extinction, but the weakest form of life. Unfortunately, the concept of 'Rephaim' is lost in translation here as it has been translated as 'the Dead'

Here is something from a site that explores the Hebrew understanding of death

N here stands for 'Nephesh' which in every case in the OT English translations where 'Soul' appears has been translated from.

"The ideas of the grave and of sheol cannot be separated. Every one who dies goes to sheol, just as he, if everything happens in the normal way, is put into the grave. When the earth swallowed up Dathan and Abiram with all that belonged to them, they went straight down into sheol (Num. 16:29ff.), and Jacob now speaks of going into the grave (Gen * 47:30), now of going into sheol (Gen. 37:35). The dead are at the same time in the grave and in sheol, not in two different places." (Pedersen, p. 461) However, it was noteably those who suffered a shameful death, the slain or the wicked enemies of the godly, that were referred to as actually dwelling in sheol. Thus, Pedersen was perhaps not completely accurate when he wrote that all who died went to sheol. "The wicked shall depart to sheol, all the nations that forget God." (Ps. 9:17; see also Ps. 55:15; Prov. 5:6, 7:27, 9:18) Wicked scoffers could even make a covenant with death and sheol. (see Is. 28:15,18) To die a natural death full of years had its honour and satisfaction. One was "gathered to his people" (Gen. 25:8, 35:29, 49:33; Jud. 2:10) or "sleeps with his fathers" (I Kings 2:10, 11:43) in the family grave. Even in death, the godly participate in the family line. Pedersen was correct in holding the opinion that the grave and sheol cannot be viewed as separate; however, it is important to note a difference between his two examples regarding Jacob. In Gen. 37:35 Jacob refuses comfort after being told Joseph his son was killed, but in Gen. 47:30 Jacob's house is in order and he is therefore now ready to die. The word sheol is used, appropriately, only in the first example.
OT Biblical scholars agree that the ancient Hebrews believed N could die. N was subject to death and therefore was a perishable existence. Ruah-breath left flesh, and N thereby ceased to exist since the vitality of N-blood was no longer sustained. There was no idea of an immaterial entity that left the body at death. It was ruah as breath viewed through the synthetic mind of the Hebrews which concretely, visably left. Human wind departed, not an invisible non-physical entity of more value than a body from which it travelled. Breath and flesh returned to their former conditions and the person took on a new existence, a new status, as one of the rephaim. Pedersen tried to re-define soul when he wrote, "When death occurs, then it is the soul that is deprived of life. Death cannot strike the body or any other part of the soul without striking the entirety of the soul...There can be no doubt that it is the soul which dies, and all theories attempting to deny this fact are false." (p. 179)
Samson pleaded, "Let me [N] die with the Philistines." (Jud. 16:30) Balaam said, "Let me [N] die the death of the righteous." (Num. 23:10) According to John Robinson, "There is no suggestion that...the soul (N) is immortal, while the flesh (basar) is mortal. The soul does not survive man--it simply goes out, draining away with the blood." (p. 14)
Murtonen in Living Soul stated, "N is able to die, but the result is not a dead N but the N of a dead." (p. 29) Murtonen noted that a dead N was a contradiction in terms, and asserted that the corpse must have had some form of life or action since N always denoted these properties. Certainly, once N was dead, 'it' ceased existing. Nonetheless, it must be remembered that this 'it' was not an entity removed from the person. It was a body part caught up in the earthly status of the person. With no blood-vitality, the person ceased to exist as N., "Apparently the dying was conceived as a more or less long process during which man was still called N on account of the 'life' or 'action' which took place in the corpse." (Murtonen, p. 29-30)

From

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

markedward
Aug 11th 2008, 10:26 PM
Scripture is God breathed, and as you stated from Genesis 2 the spirit was breathed into man after making him from the dirt. So I guess I'm a bit confused as to your comment about translation and the reference to Adam. They seem to contradict. Could you clarify?The Hebrew word can be translated as either "spirit," as in, the Spirit of God, or as "breath," as in, my lungs take in breath. In English, "breath" and "spirit" mean nowhere near the same thing, but the Hebrew word can be translated as either of these. For instance, the Hebrew word adam means both "red" and "man," 'el means both "might" and "God," etc. Many words have multiple definitions that we might not associate together in English. In the case of the Hebrew word I brought up, it can mean both "spirit" and "breath" at the same time, while other times it can mean only "spirit" or only "breath."

Now, while it is technically true that God gave us our spirits since He created us, that may not be what Ecclesiastes is referring to. Genesis describes (A) man as being formed out of the dust of the earth, and (B) God breathing life into man.

In turn, the Hebrew word that is commonly translated as "spirit" in the Ecclesiastes verse might actually be supposed to be translated as "breath," so then Ecclesiastes plays out the opposites of Genesis. That is to say...

Genesis: (A) man was formed from dust, (B) God's breath went to man
Ecclesiastes: (A) man returns to dust, (B) man's breath returns to God

The rest of the Old Testament depicts man as going to "down" sheol when he dies. Yet some people believe that Ecclesiastes is saying that man's spirit goes straight "up" to God when he dies. Translating the Hebrew word as "spirit" in this verse in Ecclesiastes causes a contradiction in the whole of Scripture, in that it is the only pre-New Testament verse that would be saying people don't go to sheol when they die.

But if the Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes is supposed to be translated as "breath" instead of "spirit," then the whole of Scripture remains consistent and uncontradicted. The rest of Scripture depicts pre-Jesus people as going to sheol upon death, and then being taken to God to be judged only after Jesus' ascension to heaven.

In summary: (1) The Hebrew word translated as "spirit" can also be translated as "breath. (2) The Ecclesiastes verse in question is commonly translated in English as "spirit." (3) Translating it as "spirit" brings about a contradiction in where people (pre-Jesus' resurrection, at least) went when they died; to sheol, or to God? (4) Translating it as "breath," however, breaks the contradiction and keeps the consistency of the rest of Scripture that pre-Jesus people went to sheol when they died.

poochie
Aug 14th 2008, 10:10 PM
I do not think that this is a biblical doctrine.

Refer to

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/sda/adventi.htm (http://www.rapidnet.com/%7Ejbeard/bdm/Cults/sda/adventi.htm)


There has been alot of talk about what happens when we die. Do we sleep till Christ comes back?

Even though the scriptures have proven we dont, for it says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". So has other scriptures have explained it.


But, Jesus recently revealed this passage of the scripture to me, to clearify everything. Its was as clear as day light.

KJV [†] Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We are dust and when we die, we will return to dust, then our spirit will leave our body. Then we will ascend to God to be judged (Ecclesiastes 12:14)

Millions of souls are burning in hell right this second, millions....