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View Full Version : Discussion A new doctrine for discussion. Osas and no osas.



ikester7579
Aug 12th 2008, 10:27 AM
It's been a while since I have posted here. I left for personal reasons and to get my head clear. But I'm not here to post on a permanent bases. And I won't be debating on evolution issues here.

But while away I debated on several other places. Youtube, some other forums, etc... But the osas vs no-osas has always been an issue with me more than evolution because to me it's very important that we know what the truth is about this.

So one day while considering the judgment of the two thrones, several things just started coming together. And it's a doctrine I've come up with that I have never heard preached anywhere before. And it's all backable in God's word. And it denies 50% of the teaching of both doctrines of osas and no-osas. Already sounds weird LOL. I thought so to until I started testing it against the word of God. And every bit just fit like hand in glove. And it was also shocking to figure out what will happen.

I have presented this to other forums now. And people are shocked, they cannot find fault with it. So now I figure with all the knowledgeable people here, I would present it and give the glory to God if it passes the test here as well.

Side note: I used deductive reasoning to find this answer. Which makes me wonder if other answers can be found in the word using this same technique.

New doctrine:

So here it is in a nut shell. I'll try to keep it simple. But in no way accept this doctrine unless you are sure that it goes along with the word. I'm not here to convert no one. It's a long read but well worth it as you will also see several questions get answered that I see often asked.

After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfections will be corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings. Why? Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No? Now I'm not saying that denominations are bad, they lay our foundations for our faith. But to move closer to God, there comes a day that within our denomination that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where osas and no-osas has to be tested.

Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enough to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgiveness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hungry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition, he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner. And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell for the other judgement?

Note: There is no old or new testament hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire, they have one more chance.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far? This is why they are being punished (corrected by fire).

Now if the ones who "works" are being burned, are being saved by fire. Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it (knowledge of sin).

So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven. God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows "some" to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about Christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.

Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing Christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

Side note: The sheep will be corrected by the rod for a thousand years. The goats will be corrected by hell fire for a thousand years.

You see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because "whosoever" in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

God being no respecter of persons makes Him a just Judge.

So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respecter of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person (saved or unsaved) is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

For God to be just:

Every person has to be treated equally (no respecter of persons). Saved or unsaved. Anything less is unjust. Punishment for sin has to be the same (saved or unsaved). And having knowledge of sin making it a sin makes it just for all (saved or unsaved).

Knowledge of sin equals judgement:

1)For the sinner, it makes to where you have to have had a chance to know Christ before being punished for rejecting. Which means all that have not known, have no chance to know, etc... Still have one chance, after passing through the fire, to end up in heaven.

2) For the saved, The new in Christ would not know about all the conditions of the covenant. So not having the knowledge of the conditions yet, would make them innocent of the sin of not doing them.

Yet the ones who did but decided not to do them. Would receive punishment but would have one more chance.

All of this would make God just on every issue. No one goes to hell who did not deserve to be there. No one goes to heaven who did not deserve to be there.

Punishment vs eternal damnation:

When those who are pulled up from hell that do not have their name show up in the book of life. They are the ones who were given the chance, or had the knowledge but rejected. So their punishment turn into eternal damnation as they are cast into the lake of fire because they were full of evil and when given the choice choose evil instead of good. What proves this even more is this verse.

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Eternal Damnation is used when there is no chance of forgiveness. In danger means there is also a condition to this actually happening. What is that condition? The person first has to know what the sin is before it becomes a sin.

Punishment:

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever. You punish to correct. Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

ikester7579
Aug 12th 2008, 12:01 PM
Also, here is a video of what it looks like to an atheist when God is made out to be a respecter of persons in judgement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06HGc_jb6tk

You cannot have God being a just judge if the doctrine makes Him out to be a respecter of persons. Which makes the doctrine look new age, as video above points out.

alethos
Aug 12th 2008, 01:19 PM
mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever. You punish to correct. Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Consider this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (aiōnios) life.

The state of the righteous is "life eternal;" the state of the wicked is "everlasting punishment." The duration of these two states is the same, exactly the same Greek word being used in each case (aionios). Then if the state of punishment has an end, so has the life.

Joey Porter
Aug 12th 2008, 04:09 PM
Ikester, I would say you are a lot closer to the truth than most of those who are on either side of the osas/nosas debate.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 05:20 PM
It's been a while since I have posted here. I left for personal reasons and to get my head clear. But I'm not here to post on a permanent bases. And I won't be debating on evolution issues here.

But while away I debated on several other places. Youtube, some other forums, etc... But the osas vs no-osas has always been an issue with me more than evolution because to me it's very important that we know what the truth is about this.

So one day while considering the judgment of the two thrones, several things just started coming together.I already disagree with you. There will not be two judgment thrones. Scripture knows of only one. Just because it's referred to as the "great white throne" only in Rev 20 doesn't mean that's a separate judgment.


And it's a doctrine I've come up with that I have never heard preached anywhere before.That should raise red flags right there. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.


And it's all backable in God's word. And it denies 50% of the teaching of both doctrines of osas and no-osas. Already sounds weird LOL. I thought so to until I started testing it against the word of God. And every bit just fit like hand in glove. And it was also shocking to figure out what will happen.

I have presented this to other forums now. And people are shocked, they cannot find fault with it.Honestly, I don't think other forums have near the number of people who really study the word in depth as you can find here, so I'm not impressed with that statement.


So now I figure with all the knowledgeable people here, I would present it and give the glory to God if it passes the test here as well.

Side note: I used deductive reasoning to find this answer. Which makes me wonder if other answers can be found in the word using this same technique.

New doctrine:

So here it is in a nut shell. I'll try to keep it simple. But in no way accept this doctrine unless you are sure that it goes along with the word. I'm not here to convert no one. It's a long read but well worth it as you will also see several questions get answered that I see often asked.

After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfections will be corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.Whoa, time out. Did you somehow miss the part that says "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers"? How does being broken to shivers equate to merely being corrected? It doesn't. Read Rev 19:15, which also speaks of Christ ruling with a rod of iron. It indicates that Him ruling with a rod of iron is equivalent to Him treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.". What does that mean?

Rev 14
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


This has to do with utter destruction, not correction. Therefore, I believe you are completely misinterpreting Rev 2:27.



And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings. Why? Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No? Now I'm not saying that denominations are bad, they lay our foundations for our faith. But to move closer to God, there comes a day that within our denomination that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where osas and no-osas has to be tested.If that is the purpose of the supposed future thousand year kingdom then why are a number of people, as the sand of the sea, deceived immediately afterwards? How could that be? That would make all that work of supposedly correcting our imperfections of our denominational teachings pointless.


Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enough to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgiveness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?

These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hungry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition, he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner.This is absolutely false. No saved person is going to be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. The goats get cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41). This is parallel to Rev 20:15, which speaks of the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire.


And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell for the other judgement?Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?


Note: There is no old or new testament hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire, they have one more chance.One more chance? They are cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. How do you get one more chance from that?


1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.That refers only to believers and it says nothing about EVERLASTING fire, as Matthew 25:41 does.


Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far?Not at all.


This is why they are being punished (corrected by fire).

Now if the ones who "works" are being burned, are being saved by fire. 1 Cor 3:15 is not saying that anyone is saved by fire. It says they are saved, "so as by fire". In other words, they are saved in such a way as if they were saved out of the fire. They are rather fortunate to still be saved despite their lack of good works. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works, afterall.


Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it (knowledge of sin).Again, the goats will cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. In no way do those terms suggest a temporary time of correction.


So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven.Yes, the sheep will (believers). The book of life is not present there for nothing.


God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows "some" to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about Christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.There is no first judgment. There is only one day of judgment. Why would there be two judgments in which people are cast into the fire?


Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing Christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.Eternal destinies will already have been determined at that point. It is not the purpose of the day of judgment to determine eternal destinies. The purpose of it is to hand out eternal sentences. There will be only only two kinds of people there: sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. Saved and lost.


And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.There will be no being saved by EVERLASTING fire.


Side note: The sheep will be corrected by the rod for a thousand years. The goats will be corrected by hell fire for a thousand years.EVERLASTING does not mean "a thousand years of correction.



You see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because "whosoever" in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

God being no respecter of persons makes Him a just Judge.

So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respecter of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person (saved or unsaved) is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

For God to be just:

Every person has to be treated equally (no respecter of persons). Saved or unsaved. Anything less is unjust. Punishment for sin has to be the same (saved or unsaved). And having knowledge of sin making it a sin makes it just for all (saved or unsaved).God is certainly just and is not a respecter of persons. Finally, we have something in your post that we can agree on.


Knowledge of sin equals judgement:

1)For the sinner, it makes to where you have to have had a chance to know Christ before being punished for rejecting. Which means all that have not known, have no chance to know, etc... Still have one chance, after passing through the fire, to end up in heaven.This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Instead, scripture teaches this:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment


2) For the saved, The new in Christ would not know about all the conditions of the covenant. So not having the knowledge of the conditions yet, would make them innocent of the sin of not doing them.

Yet the ones who did but decided not to do them. Would receive punishment but would have one more chance.Again, the idea of having second chances after death is not taught in scripture. Don't worry about it, though. God is just and knows people's hearts. No one will end up in the lake of fire who doesn't belong there.


All of this would make God just on every issue. No one goes to hell who did not deserve to be there. No one goes to heaven who did not deserve to be there.Of course. But a future time of punishment that occurs for the purpose of getting people to finally come around and repent and believe in Christ is not taught in scripture.


Punishment vs eternal damnation:

When those who are pulled up from hell that do not have their name show up in the book of life. They are the ones who were given the chance, or had the knowledge but rejected. So their punishment turn into eternal damnation as they are cast into the lake of fire because they were full of evil and when given the choice choose evil instead of good. What proves this even more is this verse.

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Eternal Damnation is used when there is no chance of forgiveness. In danger means there is also a condition to this actually happening. What is that condition? The person first has to know what the sin is before it becomes a sin.

Punishment:

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever.Everlasting means everlasting. You are trying to change scripture.


You punish to correct.Not in the case of EVERLASTING punishment.


Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.The "everlasting fire" is the lake of fire. Both Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 say that is where unbelievers will be cast on the day of judgment.

StevenC
Aug 12th 2008, 05:24 PM
1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I have similar a belief. I believe in both eternal torment for those who receive the mark and Satan, and destruction for the rest of the wicked and unbelieving. So where you see the lake of fire as being correction I see it as destruction and torment. (I posted an indepth explanation in another post.) So I equate salvation by fire as annihilation which is a much better fate than eternal torment.

Whatever the case, the Bible is clear that the righteous are saved, and the most wicked are tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. It is a little bit less certain what happens to the rest, but one thing we do know is that they are tossed into the lake of fire fire which is called the second death.

One thing to consider is that having rejected Christ there remains no way for the wicked to be reconciled and I don't think God is going to roast them till they accept Christ....

-Steven

Joey Porter
Aug 12th 2008, 05:34 PM
Now wait a minute. Things are not as cut and dry as you try to make them out to be.

The nations that are gathered at the sheep/goat judgment are the same nations that will be ruled with a rod of iron. But they are also the same nations being spoken of in Revelation 22:

2And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, if these nations are going to be "eternally destroyed," how can the scriptures speak of healing for them?

Friend of I AM
Aug 12th 2008, 05:42 PM
I think those things you list as conditions are more or less signs. These are things which bring about an example of God's love working in one's life, thus they aren't really conditions - just examples that God's love working through an individual. Even with doing all of these things it's still possible for one to do them out of pride as oppossed to Love. Ideally, we should follow Jesus's example when we give, and not let our right hand know what the left is doing - as well as quickly forget about the good we've done to others. If everyone has this attitude, specifically an attitude of doing good as being it's own reward - then we would quickly bring about the fullness of God's kingdom in the present age.

In Christ,

Stephen

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 05:52 PM
Now wait a minute. Things are not as cut and dry as you try to make them out to be.

The nations that are gathered at the sheep/goat judgment are the same nations that will be ruled with a rod of iron.I assume your post was meant as a response to mine. Please refer back to what I said about what it really means to be ruled with a rod of iron.


But they are also the same nations being spoken of in Revelation 22:

2And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, if these nations are going to be "eternally destroyed," how can the scriptures speak of healing for them?Where does scripture teach that entire nations would be judged? Look at any scripture that speaks about the day of judgment. Is it not always in terms of individuals being judged? Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire"? Do entire nations feed the hungry or visit the sick? The sheep and goats are individuals that are separated from within all the nations.

Regarding Revelation 22:2, I don't think that is the best translation of the verse. Here it is from Young's Literal Translation:

2in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

The Greek word for "healing" in that verse is "therapeia" (Strong's 2322). This is what the word means:

1) service rendered by one to another
2) spec. medical service: curing, healing
3) household service
a) body of attendants, servants, domestics

The KJV translators picked #2, for whatever reason. But, as we can see, that is not the only definition of the word. So, we can think of the leaves of the tree of life as giving a service to the nations. A service of pleasure. They will be something that is pleasing to people.

Look at the next verse:

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

If there's no more curse, why would there be the need for healing? Also, we know that at that time "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.". So, again, why any need for healing?

Joey Porter
Aug 12th 2008, 06:24 PM
I assume your post was meant as a response to mine. Please refer back to what I said about what it really means to be ruled with a rod of iron.

Where does scripture teach that entire nations would be judged? Look at any scripture that speaks about the day of judgment. Is it not always in terms of individuals being judged? Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire"? Do entire nations feed the hungry or visit the sick? The sheep and goats are individuals that are separated from within all the nations.

Regarding Revelation 22:2, I don't think that is the best translation of the verse. Here it is from Young's Literal Translation:

2in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

The Greek word for "healing" in that verse is "therapeia" (Strong's 2322). This is what the word means:

1) service rendered by one to another
2) spec. medical service: curing, healing
3) household service
a) body of attendants, servants, domestics

The KJV translators picked #2, for whatever reason. But, as we can see, that is not the only definition of the word. So, we can think of the leaves of the tree of life as giving a service to the nations. A service of pleasure. They will be something that is pleasing to people.

Look at the next verse:

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

If there's no more curse, why would there be the need for healing? Also, we know that at that time "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.". So, again, why any need for healing?

Well, certainly at some point every man will be judged according to what he has done as an individual. But the OT is full of stories that show that entire cities or nations are judged as a whole.

But I'll stick with what is discussed in Revelation.

What would the major difference be between servicing/healing? In the case of a doctor tending to a patient, would not both terms be somewhate synonymous?

I personally don't have any problem harmonzing those in the nations (as individuals) being dashed to pieces like pottery with them being "healed." Is this not the way God deals with man to humble them? That is absolutely the case. Whatever we have inside of us that needs to come out has to come out through a process of humbling and tribulation, but in the end, is for our good.

Those who will reign with Christ upon His return (Luke 19) will be used to rule over the nations who are separated from Him at the time of His coming. Those nations will be outside of the Holy City and only those who have been made perfect (the bride who has the wedding garments, those who will reign) will be allowed to enter. They will be used to reign over, with the ultimate purpose of restoring, the nations.

TrustingFollower
Aug 12th 2008, 06:31 PM
This looks like modified greasy UR doctrine with a splash of RCC doctrine mixed in. Like ProjectPeter is famous for saying, with a good internet connection and five minutes I could find support for any theory out there. This one is no different. There is no need to invent all new doctrines at all, the Holy Spirit will guide.

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 06:54 PM
Well, certainly at some point every man will be judged according to what he has done as an individual. But the OT is full of stories that show that entire cities or nations are judged as a whole.But Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of eternal sentences being handed out. Certainly, entire nations won't be cast into "everlasting fire". Neither will entire nations be allowed entrance into the kingdom "prepared for them from the foundation of the world" while receiving "life eternal".


But I'll stick with what is discussed in Revelation.

What would the major difference be between servicing/healing? In the case of a doctor tending to a patient, would not both terms be somewhate synonymous?We're not talking about a doctor here, we're talking about the tree of life. Also, the word "healing" implies that something is wrong and needs to be healed. If there is no more curse, death, pain, sorrow or crying, why would there be any need for healing?


I personally don't have any problem harmonzing those in the nations (as individuals) being dashed to pieces like pottery with them being "healed." Is this not the way God deals with man to humble them?No, not really. To be dashed to pieces is to be destroyed, not healed or corrected. Think about it. If you wanted to correct a flaw in a piece of pottery, would you dash it to pieces? Of course not. :rolleyes:


That is absolutely the case. Whatever we have inside of us that needs to come out has to come out through a process of humbling and tribulation, but in the end, is for our good.

Those who will reign with Christ upon His return (Luke 19) will be used to rule over the nations who are separated from Him at the time of His coming. Those nations will be outside of the Holy City and only those who have been made perfect (the bride who has the wedding garments, those who will reign) will be allowed to enter. They will be used to reign over, with the ultimate purpose of restoring, the nations.I disagree. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that for now as it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue any time soon.

Joey Porter
Aug 12th 2008, 07:04 PM
But Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of eternal sentences being handed out. Certainly, entire nations won't be cast into "everlasting fire". Neither will entire nations be allowed entrance into the kingdom "prepared for them from the foundation of the world" while receiving "life eternal".

We're not talking about a doctor here, we're talking about the tree of life. Also, the word "healing" implies that something is wrong and needs to be healed. If there is no more curse, death, pain, sorrow or crying, why would there be any need for healing?

No, not really. To be dashed to pieces is to be destroyed, not healed or corrected. Think about it. If you wanted to correct a flaw in a piece of pottery, would you dash it to pieces? Of course not. :rolleyes:

I disagree. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that for now as it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue any time soon.


It's true that we may not come to common ground, but for the sake of others reading this topic, I will respond to some of what you discussed in your post.

First of all, in terms of dashing pottery to pieces to correct its flaws, I most certainly would say that, scripturally, a case could be made for this.

Jeremiah 18
4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

We're talking about a whole 'nother pot being formed, which is really the same pot with a whole new identity. It could also be considered as a house built on the sand that came crashing down, being rebuilt upon the rock.

And below, I will just reiterate what I posted in the "baptism by fire" thread, as it relates directly to what you talk about in terms of the the "everlasting" or "eternal" fire.

Well, I don't agree with the idea of purgatory in the way that the catholic church teaches it, but there are certain instances in the scriptures where fire is shown to be used for the process of purification. Here is one of the best instances of this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

One more very interesting point -

Matthew 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, what is interesting about this portion of scripture from Matthew 25 is that there is uncertainty among many scholars as to the exact understanding or meaning of the word "eternal" in the original Greek language. Some scholars say that it does mean unending, while other scholars say that it refers to a period of time or even a quality as opposed to a quantity.

But one thing that is clear is this: The Greek word translated as "punishment" in verse 46 actually means "correction" or even "pruning," as one would do to improve a tree.

I will simply say this: The meaning of this Greek word "kolasis" does leave some question as to how "correction" could or would be "eternal."

It is definitely worthy of further study.

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John146
Aug 12th 2008, 07:22 PM
It's true that we may not come to common ground, but for the sake of others reading this topic, I will respond to some of what you discussed in your post.

First of all, in terms of dashing pottery to pieces to correct its flaws, I most certainly would say that, scripturally, a case could be made for this.

Jeremiah 18
4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

We're talking about a whole 'nother pot being formed, which is really the same pot with a whole new identity. It could also be considered as a house built on the sand that came crashing down, being rebuilt upon the rock.

And below, I will just reiterate what I posted in the "baptism by fire" thread, as it relates directly to what you talk about in terms of the the "everlasting" or "eternal" fire.

Well, I don't agree with the idea of purgatory in the way that the catholic church teaches it, but there are certain instances in the scriptures where fire is shown to be used for the process of purification. Here is one of the best instances of this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "I still disagree. I don't see your points as being valid, but thanks for sharing them, anyway.


One more very interesting point -

Matthew 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, what is interesting about this portion of scripture from Matthew 25 is that there is uncertainty among many scholars as to the exact understanding or meaning of the word "eternal" in the original Greek language. Some scholars say that it does mean unending, while other scholars say that it refers to a period of time or even a quality as opposed to a quantity.

But one thing that is clear is this: The Greek word translated as "punishment" in verse 46 actually means "correction" or even "pruning," as one would do to improve a tree.

I will simply say this: The meaning of this Greek word "kolasis" does leave some question as to how "correction" could or would be "eternal."

It is definitely worthy of further study.

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But the Greek word "kolasis" doesn't just mean "correction".

It means: correction, punishment, penalty

It can mean correction. But it can also mean punishment or penalty. Also, the Greek word for "everlasting" that precedes "kolasis" is "aiōnios" (Strong's 166).

Here are the definitions for that word:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


That same Greek word for "everlasting", aiōnios, as used in the phrase "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is also used in that same verse where it mentions "life eternal". Do you believe that the "life eternal" is not life that lasts forever? I doubt that. So, why not be consistent and interpret "everlasting punishment" as punishment that lasts forever? It's clear that "everlasting" means forever (without end), so I believe this means we can rule out the idea that "punishment" means "correction". As you indicated, it wouldn't make sense for correction to last forever.

Bryan43
Aug 12th 2008, 07:27 PM
If I may add.

if one looks through history they see a pattern.

first God dealt with man without a law. he dealt on an induvidual basis.

second came the law. Dealing with the nation of isreal. but as a teaching tool showing why we needed salvation, and what the messiah was going to do.

third came Christ. thus the church. the holy spirit given to all.

next thew 7 years to complete Gods promise to isreal.

finally Christ reign on the throne of David for 1000 years. With satan bound in the bottomless pit.

what we see is God shutting every excuse man will attempt to make at the great white throne.

there will be no excuse. Without the law. People rejected Christ. With it. people rejected. After the messiah came, people still rejected. and with Christ rulling for 1000 years, and satan bound. people still reject. All the excuses are gone. there will be no excuse for rejecting Gods salvation.

The bible also says after the 1000 year reign. when satan is loosed, he will again gather armies to come after Christ and his people. this is when God destroyed the rest, including the heavens and earth. and sets up eternity. this is when Time ends. The great white throne happens. and eternity begins. whether in eternal darkness, or in eternal light. depends on the decisions we made on earth while alive.

make any sense??

alethos
Aug 12th 2008, 09:36 PM
Looks like ikester will be kept busy for some time.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 07:57 AM
Consider this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (aiōnios) life.

The state of the righteous is "life eternal;" the state of the wicked is "everlasting punishment." The duration of these two states is the same, exactly the same Greek word being used in each case (aionios). Then if the state of punishment has an end, so has the life.

Why would the english translators use different words if the same meaning was meant?

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 07:59 AM
Ikester, I would say you are a lot closer to the truth than most of those who are on either side of the osas/nosas debate.

I'm trying. But I should not have posted this late at night and half asleep LOL. I think I made a few mistakes but maybe I work them out as thread goes along.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 08:46 AM
I already disagree with you. There will not be two judgment thrones. Scripture knows of only one. Just because it's referred to as the "great white throne" only in Rev 20 doesn't mean that's a separate judgment.

That is a matter of opinion or doctrinal belief. Or it could be translation related. I use the KJV, and it clearly states two judgements.


That should raise red flags right there. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

Really? Then everyone should know all about the Bible as soon as they get saved.


Honestly, I don't think other forums have near the number of people who really study the word in depth as you can find here, so I'm not impressed with that statement.

That's why I bring it here. I knew you guys would tare it to shreds that way If I could rebuild it making the corrections. I know I have something. If not, I throw it away. But not totally.


Whoa, time out. Did you somehow miss the part that says "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers"? How does being broken to shivers equate to merely being corrected? It doesn't. Read Rev 19:15, which also speaks of Christ ruling with a rod of iron. It indicates that Him ruling with a rod of iron is equivalent to Him treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.". What does that mean?

The mold we build from what we understand is an imperfect mold because we are not perfect. Neither in truth or understanding. Christ will be our potter when our vessel is broken into shivers. Breaking us into the smallest pieces, makes it possible to put back together from the core of our imperfection to our perfection by His own hand.


Rev 14
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


This has to do with utter destruction, not correction. Therefore, I believe you are completely misinterpreting Rev 2:27.

And you are speaking of the tribulation. I'm speaking of judgement thrones, hell, heaven.


If that is the purpose of the supposed future thousand year kingdom then why are a number of people, as the sand of the sea, deceived immediately afterwards? How could that be? That would make all that work of supposedly correcting our imperfections of our denominational teachings pointless.

Once the new vessels are made, they have to stand the test, to test their perfection. There won't be judgements like: You were a good Baptist, go to the Baptist section of heaven, etc... We are supposed to be one. How do you become one? You get rid of what separates us within the body of Christ. And what do you think that it is that does this? Denominations. We fight for the same cause. But when we fight one another, then we lose site of the goal. Why do you think so many atheists are so tired of religion they could just get sick?


This is absolutely false. No saved person is going to be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. The goats get cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41). This is parallel to Rev 20:15, which speaks of the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire.

That's your opinion and dotrinal teaching. I have no problem with it. I just have a different one that is back up in the word.


Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?

First judgement never says anyone is pulled from hell or any other place that contains sinners. I know that you don't believe in more than one judgement, so this answer won't help you understand.


One more chance? They are cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. How do you get one more chance from that?

I used to believe the same way you do. So don't think I don't understand where you are coming from. But ponder this:

1) If a person never gets the chance to hear the word of God or know Christ. What is he or she guilty of to be condemn for all eternity? Can yu name the sin, then back that up in the word?

2) Sheep and goats. Why call some of the people at one judgement goats unless there is a meaning? If they are unsaved sinners, can you provide verses where any unsaved was ever called a goat?

Goats in the old testament were used as sin atonement. So if the person is judged as a goat, thrown into the fire (like goats are burned for the sin atonement). Then are they not being their own sin atonement for rejecting Christ's covenant? For why else label them the name of a sin atonement (a goat), then burn them like a sin atonement with fire?


That refers only to believers and it says nothing about EVERLASTING fire, as Matthew 25:41 does.

Not at all.

1 Cor 3:15 is not saying that anyone is saved by fire. It says they are saved, "so as by fire". In other words, they are saved in such a way as if they were saved out of the fire. They are rather fortunate to still be saved despite their lack of good works. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works, afterall.

You are making the word conform to doctrinal teaching.


Again, the goats will cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. In no way do those terms suggest a temporary time of correction.

If you want to believe that way. I have no problem with it. Salvation is not determined by us being 100% right. But we are supposed to continually search for truth. And I have yet to find anyone who could truly claim that have 100% of that truth from the word. Have you found such a person?


Yes, the sheep will (believers). The book of life is not present there for nothing.

There is no first judgment. There is only one day of judgment. Why would there be two judgments in which people are cast into the fire?

Two covenants. Which means two promises were made. This is why the hands are spoke of, and how man cannot be plucked out of them. Hands are a representation of judgement, not salvation. So the passing of people from the Father's hands to the Son. Is the passing of the old covenant unto the new covenant. The passing from the Son to the Father happens when the new covenant promise (conditions) is not carried out.


Eternal destinies will already have been determined at that point. It is not the purpose of the day of judgment to determine eternal destinies. The purpose of it is to hand out eternal sentences. There will be only only two kinds of people there: sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. Saved and lost.

Provide me verses where unsaved sinners are goats? You cannot because they do not exist. Goats are sin atonement.


There will be no being saved by EVERLASTING fire.

100% sure?


EVERLASTING does not mean "a thousand years of correction.

A fire is a thing. It is not time passage. So everlasting fire is a fire that burns for ever with our without people in it.

Example: Let's say I invent a fuel that is never completely consumed when burned. And the fire never goes out. Even though I never burn anything in it, I can claim it is a everlasting fire because it will never go out. And a ever lasting fire does not mean that if I put something in it and take it out that suddenly it no longer burns.


God is certainly just and is not a respecter of persons. Finally, we have something in your post that we can agree on.

Being just also means that every person gets a fair shake.


This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Instead, scripture teaches this:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

What does whosoever mean?


Again, the idea of having second chances after death is not taught in scripture. Don't worry about it, though. God is just and knows people's hearts. No one will end up in the lake of fire who doesn't belong there.

If you cannot lose your salvation, but you do not do the conditions of the covenant. Are you going to skate by while the ones who did do the conditions say: What do you mean leting them in when we did all the covenant works for the kingdom to bring in the harvest and they did nothing? Is that fair?


Of course. But a future time of punishment that occurs for the purpose of getting people to finally come around and repent and believe in Christ is not taught in scripture.

Do you know what being purified by fire means? When your works burn up, why do you think they burn up? And where does this fire come from to burn the works up? Is fire in heaven, or in hell?


Everlasting means everlasting. You are trying to change scripture.

Eternal equals time that last forever.


Not in the case of EVERLASTING punishment.

What is the difference between hell and the lake of fire when hell will be clearly thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed?


The "everlasting fire" is the lake of fire. Both Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 say that is where unbelievers will be cast on the day of judgment.

And hell, which will be thrown into the lake of fire. Cannot be eternal because it will cease to exist.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 08:52 AM
I have similar a belief. I believe in both eternal torment for those who receive the mark and Satan, and destruction for the rest of the wicked and unbelieving. So where you see the lake of fire as being correction I see it as destruction and torment. (I posted an indepth explanation in another post.) So I equate salvation by fire as annihilation which is a much better fate than eternal torment.

This is part of a trinity of unforgivable sins:

1) Blaspheming the Holy Ghost.
2) Changing the word of God.
3) Taking the Mark of the Beast.


Whatever the case, the Bible is clear that the righteous are saved, and the most wicked are tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. It is a little bit less certain what happens to the rest, but one thing we do know is that they are tossed into the lake of fire fire which is called the second death.

You bring up a very good point. Fire one is first death. Fire two is second death.


One thing to consider is that having rejected Christ there remains no way for the wicked to be reconciled and I don't think God is going to roast them till they accept Christ....

-Steven


How true.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 08:55 AM
Now wait a minute. Things are not as cut and dry as you try to make them out to be.

The nations that are gathered at the sheep/goat judgment are the same nations that will be ruled with a rod of iron. But they are also the same nations being spoken of in Revelation 22:

2And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, if these nations are going to be "eternally destroyed," how can the scriptures speak of healing for them?

Being saved as though by fire. What it is that is being destroyed is there carnal works (works burning). Upon the destruction of the bad works, and no works. They are purified by the fire when they appear in the second judgement.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 08:59 AM
I think those things you list as conditions are more or less signs. These are things which bring about an example of God's love working in one's life, thus they aren't really conditions - just examples that God's love working through an individual. Even with doing all of these things it's still possible for one to do them out of pride as oppossed to Love. Ideally, we should follow Jesus's example when we give, and not let our right hand know what the left is doing - as well as quickly forget about the good we've done to others. If everyone has this attitude, specifically an attitude of doing good as being it's own reward - then we would quickly bring about the fullness of God's kingdom in the present age.

In Christ,

Stephen

Signs? Spreading the gospel is not a sign. And you cannot be condemned for not seeing a sign. Signs don't make you a sheep or a goat. Signs are not the condition of the covenant in which we are saved for.

And rewards are given through the crowns we will recieve. then we will cast them at the feet of Christ.

ikester7579
Aug 13th 2008, 09:12 AM
This looks like modified greasy UR doctrine with a splash of RCC doctrine mixed in.

Purgatory has it to where people can get prayed out by man. I never implied this. And I'm not sure what UR is.


Like ProjectPeter is famous for saying, with a good internet connection and five minutes I could find support for any theory out there.

So did I find this one searching on the web? You are making assumptions here.


This one is no different. There is no need to invent all new doctrines at all, the Holy Spirit will guide.

If the doctrines we have are so perfect, then why all the debating over who is right? We would already know and that would settle it. But the debate goes on.

valleybldr
Aug 13th 2008, 09:15 AM
"New?" It's the number one doctrinal discussion on every Protestant board on which I've ever participated.:bounce: todd

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 11:27 AM
That is a matter of opinion or doctrinal belief. Or it could be translation related. I use the KJV, and it clearly states two judgements.

I agree with you here. Bema seat judgment as it is called for God's children. Great White Throne for unbelievers.


Really? Then everyone should know all about the Bible as soon as they get saved.

again agree, 1 john 2: 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

How people interpret is their problem. If they get it wrong. They will have to explain why when they stand in front of God. At the same token, if they blindly listen to men, they will be in even more danger. yet still be without excuse.

running out of time. want to respond to this real quick. willget the rest later.



What is the difference between hell and the lake of fire when hell will be clearly thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed?


The word translated "hell" in rev 20: 14 in many bibles actually comes from the greek word hadēs which is known by many to be the temporary resting place of dead souls who have rejected Gos provision for salvation. I am not sure why some interpretors used Hell instead of hades.

Firstfruits
Aug 13th 2008, 11:37 AM
It's been a while since I have posted here. I left for personal reasons and to get my head clear. But I'm not here to post on a permanent bases. And I won't be debating on evolution issues here.

But while away I debated on several other places. Youtube, some other forums, etc... But the osas vs no-osas has always been an issue with me more than evolution because to me it's very important that we know what the truth is about this.

So one day while considering the judgment of the two thrones, several things just started coming together. And it's a doctrine I've come up with that I have never heard preached anywhere before. And it's all backable in God's word. And it denies 50% of the teaching of both doctrines of osas and no-osas. Already sounds weird LOL. I thought so to until I started testing it against the word of God. And every bit just fit like hand in glove. And it was also shocking to figure out what will happen.

I have presented this to other forums now. And people are shocked, they cannot find fault with it. So now I figure with all the knowledgeable people here, I would present it and give the glory to God if it passes the test here as well.

Side note: I used deductive reasoning to find this answer. Which makes me wonder if other answers can be found in the word using this same technique.

New doctrine:

So here it is in a nut shell. I'll try to keep it simple. But in no way accept this doctrine unless you are sure that it goes along with the word. I'm not here to convert no one. It's a long read but well worth it as you will also see several questions get answered that I see often asked.

After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfections will be corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings. Why? Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No? Now I'm not saying that denominations are bad, they lay our foundations for our faith. But to move closer to God, there comes a day that within our denomination that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where osas and no-osas has to be tested.

Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enough to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgiveness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?



These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hungry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition, he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner. And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell for the other judgement?

Note: There is no old or new testament hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire, they have one more chance.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far? This is why they are being punished (corrected by fire).

Now if the ones who "works" are being burned, are being saved by fire. Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it (knowledge of sin).

So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven. God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows "some" to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about Christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.

Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing Christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

Side note: The sheep will be corrected by the rod for a thousand years. The goats will be corrected by hell fire for a thousand years.

You see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because "whosoever" in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

God being no respecter of persons makes Him a just Judge.

So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respecter of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person (saved or unsaved) is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

For God to be just:

Every person has to be treated equally (no respecter of persons). Saved or unsaved. Anything less is unjust. Punishment for sin has to be the same (saved or unsaved). And having knowledge of sin making it a sin makes it just for all (saved or unsaved).

Knowledge of sin equals judgement:

1)For the sinner, it makes to where you have to have had a chance to know Christ before being punished for rejecting. Which means all that have not known, have no chance to know, etc... Still have one chance, after passing through the fire, to end up in heaven.

2) For the saved, The new in Christ would not know about all the conditions of the covenant. So not having the knowledge of the conditions yet, would make them innocent of the sin of not doing them.

Yet the ones who did but decided not to do them. Would receive punishment but would have one more chance.

All of this would make God just on every issue. No one goes to hell who did not deserve to be there. No one goes to heaven who did not deserve to be there.

Punishment vs eternal damnation:

When those who are pulled up from hell that do not have their name show up in the book of life. They are the ones who were given the chance, or had the knowledge but rejected. So their punishment turn into eternal damnation as they are cast into the lake of fire because they were full of evil and when given the choice choose evil instead of good. What proves this even more is this verse.

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Eternal Damnation is used when there is no chance of forgiveness. In danger means there is also a condition to this actually happening. What is that condition? The person first has to know what the sin is before it becomes a sin.

Punishment:

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever. You punish to correct. Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

What happens to someone that is a Christian and has been doing the will of God and then goes out of the will of God, with regards to the following?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

alethos
Aug 13th 2008, 12:07 PM
Why would the english translators use different words if the same meaning was meant?

The original manuscripts were in Greek, not English. Thats why we often resort back to the Greek.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 01:31 PM
real quick. then I need to try to finish reading the ealier stuff.


What happens to someone that is a Christian and has been doing the will of God and then goes out of the will of God, with regards to the following?


Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Jesus gave this answer in john 6. when asked by the pharisees what work they must do to recieve this food which endured to eternal life. he replied by saying this is the work of Gof. That you believe in the one he sent. As we saw later, that had no faith whatsoever jesus was the messiah. The disciples did. and although they did not know for sure exactly what it was, they had faith. as they replied "you have the words of eternal life" we know after Christs ressurection their hearts were opened and they finally understood, it was Christs work that we are to have faith in for our salvation. trust it completely. for Christ work is the work of God.


(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22)Mt 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22)

these would be the ones who were of the false church. the ones who thought they were doing Gods will by doing all the works in his name, the issue was they were using these works in an attempt to gain Gods grav=ce and earn salvation. and never had faith in Christ's work alone for salvation.

Hope this helps

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 04:57 PM
Consider this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (aiōnios) life.

The state of the righteous is "life eternal;" the state of the wicked is "everlasting punishment." The duration of these two states is the same, exactly the same Greek word being used in each case (aionios). Then if the state of punishment has an end, so has the life.
Why would the english translators use different words if the same meaning was meant?The KJV translators did that. Why? No particular reason, as far as I can tell. Everlasting and eternal mean the same thing, don't they? The NIV, NASB, Amplified Bible, ESV, YLT, HCSB, WNT, and ASV translators all translated both occurrences of the word in that verse with the same English word ("eternal" in most cases). The fact is, in the language it was written in the same word was used in each case. So, there's no valid reason to think that the Greek word aiōnios would have meant one thing in the first part of the verse and another thing in the last part of the verse.

alethos
Aug 13th 2008, 05:18 PM
The KJV translators did that. Why? No particular reason, as far as I can tell. Everlasting and eternal mean the same thing, don't they? The NIV, NASB, Amplified Bible, ESV, YLT, HCSB, WNT, and ASV translators all translated both occurrences of the word in that verse with the same English word ("eternal" in most cases). The fact is, in the language it was written in the same word was used in each case. So, there's no valid reason to think that the Greek word aiōnios would have meant one thing in the first part of the verse and another thing in the last part of the verse.

That would be correct, and compliments what I have said. Thank you.

John146
Aug 13th 2008, 05:58 PM
That is a matter of opinion or doctrinal belief. Or it could be translation related. I use the KJV, and it clearly states two judgements.I mostly use the KJV as well. Perhaps you missed this passage in your KJV:

Romans 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul is not referring just to believers here. Unless you don't think that unbelievers will have to bow before Christ and give account of themselves to Him? All people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. It is otherwise known as the great white throne. Why do you suppose that scripture repeatedly refers to "the day of judgment"? If there was more than one day of judgment, why don't the verses that refer to the day of judgment specify which day of judgment is being spoken about?


Really? Then everyone should know all about the Bible as soon as they get saved.You missed my point. Aren't you basically trying to tell us that a truth has been revealed to you that no one has ever before understood? That's how you came across in your original post.


That's why I bring it here. I knew you guys would tare it to shreds that way If I could rebuild it making the corrections. I know I have something. If not, I throw it away. But not totally.That is fine with me. You didn't set that kind of tone in your original post, though. You seemed to be 100% certain that everything you were saying was absolutely true and that was that.


The mold we build from what we understand is an imperfect mold because we are not perfect. Neither in truth or understanding. Christ will be our potter when our vessel is broken into shivers. Breaking us into the smallest pieces, makes it possible to put back together from the core of our imperfection to our perfection by His own hand.Aren't we going to be changed "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" when Christ returns? It's only unbelievers that will be broken into shivers and destroyed. I pointed out Rev 19:15 to you. That verse speaks of Christ ruling with a rod of iron and relates it to Him treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.". Then I referred to Rev 14:18-20 which shows that treading the winepress of the wrath of God has to do with destruction, not correction. What are your thoughts on that?


Once the new vessels are made, they have to stand the test, to test their perfection. There won't be judgements like: You were a good Baptist, go to the Baptist section of heaven, etc... We are supposed to be one. How do you become one? You get rid of what separates us within the body of Christ. And what do you think that it is that does this? Denominations. We fight for the same cause. But when we fight one another, then we lose site of the goal. Why do you think so many atheists are so tired of religion they could just get sick?Again, when Christ returns we will be changed in a moment and will then have incorruptible and immortal bodies. There's no process of molding that needs to take place at that point.


I used to believe the same way you do. So don't think I don't understand where you are coming from. But ponder this:

1) If a person never gets the chance to hear the word of God or know Christ. What is he or she guilty of to be condemn for all eternity? Can yu name the sin, then back that up in the word?God is just. I'm not worried about it. No one will be cast into the everlasting fire who doesn't deserve to be there. But we can't ignore that Hebrews 9:27 says that man is appointed to die once and then the judgment. It doesn't say that man is appointed to die once, be resurrected for another chance, and then the judgment.


2) Sheep and goats. Why call some of the people at one judgement goats unless there is a meaning? If they are unsaved sinners, can you provide verses where any unsaved was ever called a goat?Why would I need to do that? How in the world can you think that any saved person would be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment?


Goats in the old testament were used as sin atonement. So if the person is judged as a goat, thrown into the fire (like goats are burned for the sin atonement). Then are they not being their own sin atonement for rejecting Christ's covenant? For why else label them the name of a sin atonement (a goat), then burn them like a sin atonement with fire?You're making this all convoluted. You can't get around the fact that the goats are cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. That cannot possibly be referring to people who are saved.


You are making the word conform to doctrinal teaching.We could all accuse each other of doing that, but that proves nothing. It's best to make your points with scripture rather than just tossing out baseless accusations like that.


If you want to believe that way. I have no problem with it. Salvation is not determined by us being 100% right.Of course not.


But we are supposed to continually search for truth. And I have yet to find anyone who could truly claim that have 100% of that truth from the word. Have you found such a person?No, and I don't suppose I ever will. We continue learning our whole lives and will continue to learn on into eternity.


Two covenants. Which means two promises were made. This is why the hands are spoke of, and how man cannot be plucked out of them. Hands are a representation of judgement, not salvation. So the passing of people from the Father's hands to the Son. Is the passing of the old covenant unto the new covenant. The passing from the Son to the Father happens when the new covenant promise (conditions) is not carried out.You lost me on this one. What you said here is supposed to be evidence of two separate judgments? Huh.


Provide me verses where unsaved sinners are goats? You cannot because they do not exist. Goats are sin atonement.Matthew 25:31-46. Who else but unsaved sinners would be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment?


100% sure?You asked this in response to my statement that "There will be no being saved by EVERLASTING fire.". And my answer to your question is "Yes".


A fire is a thing. It is not time passage. So everlasting fire is a fire that burns for ever with our without people in it.

Example: Let's say I invent a fuel that is never completely consumed when burned. And the fire never goes out. Even though I never burn anything in it, I can claim it is a everlasting fire because it will never go out. And a ever lasting fire does not mean that if I put something in it and take it out that suddenly it no longer burns.If people are cast INTO everlasting fire, how could they not be in it? Doesn't it also say that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment"?


Being just also means that every person gets a fair shake.Of course. That's not something we need to be concerned about because we know God is just. He will judge all based on the knowledge they had in this life. It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. Everyone gets this one life. No second chances.


What does whosoever mean?Why would you ask that in response to me quoting Hebrews 9:27? Anyway, the best way to answer your question is to find out what it means in scripture. In the original Greek, it's the word "pas" (Strong's 3956). At least it is in John 3:16 and 700+ other verses from the KJV. This is Strong's definition of that word:

1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types


If you cannot lose your salvation, but you do not do the conditions of the covenant. Are you going to skate by while the ones who did do the conditions say: What do you mean leting them in when we did all the covenant works for the kingdom to bring in the harvest and they did nothing? Is that fair?You lost me here. Can you elaborate on what you're talking about?


Do you know what being purified by fire means? When your works burn up, why do you think they burn up? And where does this fire come from to burn the works up? Is fire in heaven, or in hell?You're all over the map here. We can be purified by the fire of the Holy Spirit within us. When it talks about works being burned in 1 Cor 3 it's not talking about literal fire. It just means that any works that are done apart from the leading of Christ will be counted as nothing (1 Cor 3:11-15, John 15:5).


Eternal equals time that last forever.Everlasting means the same thing.


What is the difference between hell and the lake of fire when hell will be clearly thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed?Hell is a temporary place while the lake of fire is eternal.


And hell, which will be thrown into the lake of fire. Cannot be eternal because it will cease to exist.Matthew 25:41 doesn't mention hell. It mentions "everlasting fire". The only everlasting fire is the lake of fire.

ikester7579
Aug 15th 2008, 11:54 AM
What happens to someone that is a Christian and has been doing the will of God and then goes out of the will of God, with regards to the following?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

There will be those who thought they could enter unto Heaven by doing works. Works without salvation is dead works. They can use the word of God to cast out devils just because the spoken word, from the Bible, is that powerful. But it all means nothing if you do not have Christ in your heart.

Example: Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Many people ignore this verse because they do not understand how David could not ascend into Heaven after being so close to God. Think about it. Would God allow a whole book to be written about someone who deserved to go to hell? There is a difference between damnation and punishment.

You see, David is considered the "dead in Christ".

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This fulfills the part where it says: The first shall be last, and the last shall be first. David is part of the last to rise from the old covenant.

When was David suppose to ascend into Heaven?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Many does not equal all. Because if what David did while alive on earth, he has to wait for another judgement. The saints that rose in Matthew were worthy from the old covenant to enter Heaven. They did not do the things David did. So David gets punishment, not damnation.

ikester7579
Aug 16th 2008, 02:19 AM
I mostly use the KJV as well. Perhaps you missed this passage in your KJV:

Romans 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul is not referring just to believers here. Unless you don't think that unbelievers will have to bow before Christ and give account of themselves to Him? All people will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. It is otherwise known as the great white throne. Why do you suppose that scripture repeatedly refers to "the day of judgment"? If there was more than one day of judgment, why don't the verses that refer to the day of judgment specify which day of judgment is being spoken about?

You are missing the point of one sentence: But why dost thou judge thy brother?

Brother is also a reference to brethren. And this is why the Judgement Throne of Christ is called the saved throne. "Never" once is a reference made the any unsaved sinner is at that Throne. And you cannot confirm that goats are unsaved sinners because that is not confirm-able in the word. I already checked.


You missed my point. Aren't you basically trying to tell us that a truth has been revealed to you that no one has ever before understood? That's how you came across in your original post.

I have never heard anyone preach this. Now does that sound like I said what you imply? If you had come up with someone who had preached this before, then I would have stood corrected, right? And if I was trying to take total credit, I also would not have said I would give the glory to God (in my original post) if it past the test here.


That is fine with me. You didn't set that kind of tone in your original post, though. You seemed to be 100% certain that everything you were saying was absolutely true and that was that.

Is there anything offensive about a challenge? What you don't understand is that I want you to prove it wrong. If you can, I don't need to waste my time studying it anymore trying to make it mesh with the word. If you cannot, I take it to the next level of proving as I try and make it fit with more of the Bible.

Added: I have matured enough in my faith to be able to lay pride aside from what I believe. So much so that I welcome being proven wrong using the word of God so that I get pointed in the right direction. No one learns if they always have to be right.


Aren't we going to be changed "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" when Christ returns? It's only unbelievers that will be broken into shivers and destroyed.

Why would they need to be destroyed if they are going into the Lake of fire?


I pointed out Rev 19:15 to you. That verse speaks of Christ ruling with a rod of iron and relates it to Him treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.". Then I referred to Rev 14:18-20 which shows that treading the winepress of the wrath of God has to do with destruction, not correction. What are your thoughts on that?

So when God refers to spare the rod spoil the child. Are we to destroy our children by the rod? I think not. Also in the 1000 year reign, there will be no sinners there. The reason the earth is destroyed by fire is to purify it of sin so that both God the Father and the Son can come down to earth.


Again, when Christ returns we will be changed in a moment and will then have incorruptible and immortal bodies. There's no process of molding that needs to take place at that point.

Then explain what the exact purpose of the 1000 year reign is for. And why Satan will be released for a short season at the end of it? This is done for two reasons.

1) Correction (rule and reign with a rod).
2) Test us (let Satan lose for a short season).


God is just. I'm not worried about it. No one will be cast into the everlasting fire who doesn't deserve to be there. But we can't ignore that Hebrews 9:27 says that man is appointed to die once and then the judgment. It doesn't say that man is appointed to die once, be resurrected for another chance, and then the judgment.

Once to die here on earth. That is a mortal death. Spiritual death is when you are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Which is the second death.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Why would I need to do that? How in the world can you think that any saved person would be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment?

What makes you think that any saved person could never commit an unforgivable sin? Show me where that is written? Show me where it says that a saved person can commit these sins, but would "never" commit the unforgivable sins? You cannot because that is not written anywhere. It is an idea from a doctrine that teaches this but cannot back it up.

Saved person being able to commit unforgivable sins equals a saved person who can lose their salvation. And the only way you can prove that wrong is with the word of God.

Also, we are saved by grace right? So grace can be considered 1/2 of what salvation is all about, right? Now how does salvation stay intact when you can actually fall from grace?

Galations 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1) Christ cannot become of no effect to the unsaved sinner because they "never" knew him.
2) The law does not save you.
3) Only the saved have the grace of God, so only the saved can fall from that grace.

To prove that wrong you would have to:

1) Show that Christ has an effect on sinners even though they never accepted Him.
2) That the unsaved sinner has the grace of God.

Doctrines are not always backed up by the word because they are man's opinion of what the word means. And man is not always perfect.


You're making this all convoluted. You can't get around the fact that the goats are cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. That cannot possibly be referring to people who are saved.

Here again you would still have to prove by scripture that:

1) Man can be saved without the need of grace (fall from it and still have it).
2) That man can have salvation when Christ no longer has an effect on their lives.


We could all accuse each other of doing that, but that proves nothing. It's best to make your points with scripture rather than just tossing out baseless accusations like that.

I have done it. I just need to see your verses showing me that man can have salvation without grace, and that he can have salvation when Christ has become of no effect in his life.


Of course not.

Then we agree.


No, and I don't suppose I ever will. We continue learning our whole lives and will continue to learn on into eternity.

So you would be satisfied with the same problems that each doctrine has without striving to go beyond it to find more truth than the average Christian?


You lost me on this one. What you said here is supposed to be evidence of two separate judgments? Huh.

I figured since you are osas you would be up on the strongest verse to support it. But I'll list it anyway.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Hands are not written anywhere in the word as a representation of salvation. Hands means three things (trinity).

1) Blessing (right hand).
2) Cursing (left hand).
3) Judgement (left hand right hand judgement).

And the only way you are in Christ's hands for no plucking, is when Christ judges you as a sheep and tells you t go to His right hand. That is why hands (plural) is not used because each hand (singular) has a different meaning. Because if you are instructed to go to the left hand, you get everlasting fire. Which means you fall into the pit. There are no hands in the pit.


Matthew 25:31-46. Who else but unsaved sinners would be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment?

Show me verses anywhere in the word that refers to goats being unsaved sinners? You see, you cannot force a doctrine to work with the word if it cannot be confirmed by the word.

Goats were used in the old testament as a sin atonement. That is the only thing they have to do with any type of salvation. So if you become a goat for not doing the works of the kingdom, then what are you? Goats were sacrifice like sheep were for sin atonement. And since the ones referred to as goats are getting cast into the fire like the offerings were, what's happening? Goats got burned as a sin offering in the OT. And now goats at the judgement throne of Christ are getting burnt too. Think about it.


You asked this in response to my statement that "There will be no being saved by EVERLASTING fire.". And my answer to your question is "Yes".

Then let's omit the verse that says that you can. For why imply it if you don't mean it?

Let me put this is simpler terms. The saved by fire only happens after what? You fail at the judgement throne of Christ. Which means that Christ's covenant no longer applies because you have been judged by the covenant maker. So being saved by fire does not compete on the same level as the salvation gift of Christ because it can only be obtained after you are rejected by the one who made the covenant, understand? So for failing the covenant, you have to go through the fire as goats (a OT sin atonement) to be purified to come out on the other end to see if your name shall appear in God's book of life. Which in no means is going around Christ and what He did, because you were judged by Christ already. And by the way shows what being in the hands of the Father and Son are about (John 10:27-30)

Passing from one hand to another for judgement is what those verses in John are all about. If you fail the judgement at Christ's Throne, then you become goats (OT sin atonement) which means you now have to be judged by the person who made that covenant (God). But for God to forgive you, you have to atone for you own sin. So Christ makes you a goat by His judgement. You pas through the fire like goats did in the OT. Then you end up before Father God to see if your name appears in the book of life.


If people are cast INTO everlasting fire, how could they not be in it? Doesn't it also say that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment"?

Everlasting fire equals a fire that never goes out.
If you are saved by the fire. Then you will remember how you got saved because you became your own sin atonement when Christ judged you as a goat. The memory of this will be forever written in your mind and heart. And this punishment for sin will be with you forever in heaven. So in a way, you will remember why you were judged as a goat. And why you had to pass through the fire to get into heaven. And that if you had done what you were supposed to. You would not have had to go through that.

Why do you think there will be tears in heaven? If people were not entering into heaven through some type of punishment, why would they cry? And why would God wipe their tears away if what they were not crying about had everything to do with how they had to get there?


Of course. That's not something we need to be concerned about because we know God is just. He will judge all based on the knowledge they had in this life. It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. Everyone gets this one life. No second chances.

One mortal life, and one spiritual life. That is why there is a verse that speaks of the "second death".


Why would you ask that in response to me quoting Hebrews 9:27? Anyway, the best way to answer your question is to find out what it means in scripture. In the original Greek, it's the word "pas" (Strong's 3956). At least it is in John 3:16 and 700+ other verses from the KJV. This is Strong's definition of that word:

1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

The word "whosoever" is used at the Great White Throne judgement. Whosoever implies chance. God does not imply lies.


You lost me here. Can you elaborate on what you're talking about?

God cannot be a no respecter of persons but yet judge by a double standard.


You're all over the map here. We can be purified by the fire of the Holy Spirit within us. When it talks about works being burned in 1 Cor 3 it's not talking about literal fire. It just means that any works that are done apart from the leading of Christ will be counted as nothing (1 Cor 3:11-15, John 15:5).

So how many times do you get baptised in the Holy Ghost fire? And why is it needed in heaven when it was left here on earth? In Heaven we have Christ. On earth we have the Holy Ghost.


Everlasting means the same thing.

This is where we will have to disagree.


Hell is a temporary place while the lake of fire is eternal.

This we agree on.


Matthew 25:41 doesn't mention hell. It mentions "everlasting fire". The only everlasting fire is the lake of fire.

Everlasting fire means a fire that never burns out. Example: What if I sold you a car that had an everlasting tank of gas. Does that mean you have to drive it forever? No it just means the gas will never run out. Just like the fire in hell will never burn out because it gets thrown into a place where fire and damnation lasts for ever. So everlasting fire is a reference to the condition of the fire, not the condition or time spent in hell.

Now if it said: Everlasting hell. Then it would be different. Because hell itself becomes everlasting.

ikester7579
Aug 16th 2008, 09:40 AM
I agree with you here. Bema seat judgment as it is called for God's children. Great White Throne for unbelievers.

That is what I used to believe until I started debating osas vs no-osas to a point to where it would stick in my head so. That when I read any part of the Bible, and something would apply and bring new insight. I saw it. The debate bugged me so, it became like an on going process in my brain that just never stops. I was going to figure out the truth about it, or it would drive me insane.:lol:

The part about the Great White Throne only being for believers bugged me because: Why have a judgement for Damnation only? If it is already known that ll go to the lake of fire, why waste the time? So I started looking for hints in the word that more was going on than we were understanding. And the word "whosoever" in the Great White Throne judgement is what started me on the journey of who in the heck would be able to go to heaven from that Judgement. Why? Because like you, I have always been taught that this judgement is for the Damned. But I'm finding that is not true


again agree, 1 john 2: 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

This only works if people do not deny the prompting of the Holy Ghost on the issues concerning truth. If the saved deny it, truth is not what they will find.


How people interpret is their problem. If they get it wrong. They will have to explain why when they stand in front of God. At the same token, if they blindly listen to men, they will be in even more danger. yet still be without excuse.

Blindly listen to men is what I used to do.

Example: I used to listen to Hagee a lot. I learned a lot from him. And I took his every word as truth without much question (blindly listen to man). But as I learned the word for myself, I began to see several things that were not quite right. Not that they were big things, it just things started adding up. I still listen, I just don't take things as literal from him anymore.


running out of time. want to respond to this real quick. willget the rest later.


The word translated "hell" in rev 20: 14 in many bibles actually comes from the greek word hadēs which is known by many to be the temporary resting place of dead souls who have rejected God's provision for salvation. I am not sure why some interpretors used Hell instead of hades.

Well, that would prove it then.