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manichunter
Aug 12th 2008, 03:56 PM
Is the passage of Scripture referring to the some aspect of the preceived Chruch during the end times?

Is God saying that some element of the Church's institution completely false? Who is this women symbolic of? The Scripture seems to indicate that it is the false church that is preceived to be the true church by most saints and the world until the time of its end.


Revelation 18: 21-24 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."


Help me out here! Who is this women and what does this Scripture mean in reference to her?


She appeared to have some association with God I do not understand. The light in the lamp, the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride gets removed from her. The gospel, songs, craftsmen, and other things get removed as well. It seems like they get in trouble over money and sorcery.


I need help. Thanks greatly.

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 04:11 PM
Do a Bible search of 'whore' and 'harlot', as well as 'prophets'.................therein lies your answer. :)

God bless you in your study.
pinky

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 06:06 PM
Is the passage of Scripture referring to the some aspect of the preceived Chruch during the end times?

Is God saying that some element of the Church's institution completely false? Who is this women symbolic of? The Scripture seems to indicate that it is the false church that is preceived to be the true church by most saints and the world until the time of its end.


Revelation 18: 21-24 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."


Help me out here! Who is this women and what does this Scripture mean in reference to her?


She appeared to have some association with God I do not understand. The light in the lamp, the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride gets removed from her. The gospel, songs, craftsmen, and other things get removed as well. It seems like they get in trouble over money and sorcery.


I need help. Thanks greatly.

I would say false religion. Since people cannot buy and sell or otherwise make a profit without worshiping the false religion. And it is the false religious system that kills the saints "in the name of God". Seems the context of the chapter leans towards false religion, idols. "Come out of her my people", just like God said to Israel in the OT. Stop with the worship of what is false and turn to Me.

manichunter
Aug 12th 2008, 07:56 PM
I would say false religion. Since people cannot buy and sell or otherwise make a profit without worshiping the false religion. And it is the false religious system that kills the saints "in the name of God". Seems the context of the chapter leans towards false religion, idols. "Come out of her my people", just like God said to Israel in the OT. Stop with the worship of what is false and turn to Me.

I am trying to find how this woman is connected to the church, since the brides, grooms, and the gospel was once in her.

Ta-An
Aug 12th 2008, 08:14 PM
.
24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, This woman??

Jerusalem



EDIT
The heading in the Bible here is actually : Babylon.....

manichunter
Aug 12th 2008, 09:21 PM
. This woman??

Jerusalem

How is the bridegroom, the bride, songs, and everything else related to Jerusalem. It seems like this has something to do with christianity.

Jerusalem had been destroyed by John's prophesy. Plus Jerusalem is not under Christian influence or authority at this time. This prophecy is some how attached to christianity. That is why the groom, and the bride are associated with it. The old Jewish religion has been without the bride and groom since Jesus was resurrected.

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 09:21 PM
. This woman??

Jerusalem

Yes.

Look to scripture ONLY.......and there is only one conclusion.

God bless,
pinky

John146
Aug 12th 2008, 09:44 PM
I would say false religion. Since people cannot buy and sell or otherwise make a profit without worshiping the false religion. And it is the false religious system that kills the saints "in the name of God". Seems the context of the chapter leans towards false religion, idols. "Come out of her my people", just like God said to Israel in the OT. Stop with the worship of what is false and turn to Me.That's basically how I see it as well. When I read that phrase "Come out of her, my people" in Revelation 18:4, it reminds me of this passage:

2 Corinthians 6
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

In this passage the Lord is saying to come out of spiritual darkness, fellowship with unrighteousness, idol worship, false religion, and such.

manichunter
Aug 12th 2008, 09:45 PM
Yes.

Look to scripture ONLY.......and there is only one conclusion.

God bless,
pinky

I read it, what do you mean. It seems like she is attached to multiple systems and people.

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 10:01 PM
I read it, what do you mean. It seems like she is attached to multiple systems and people.

Rev 17 and 18 tells us she is a city.

If you search scripture for 'harlot' and 'whore'.....you will see one city in view.

Tell me what you find.

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 10:04 PM
She also killed the prophets.

Who does your Bible, and Jesus Himself, say are responsible for killing the prophets?

What city?

It's written everywhere throughout the Word.

Who can hear Him?

Mark F
Aug 12th 2008, 10:53 PM
Proverbs 7
1 My son, keep my words,
And treasure my commands within you.
2 Keep my commands and live,
And my law as the apple of your eye.
3 Bind them on your fingers;
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your nearest kin,
5 That they may keep you from the immoral woman,
From the seductress who flatters with her words.

The Crafty Harlot
6 For at the window of my house
I looked through my lattice,
7 And saw among the simple,
I perceived among the youths,
A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner;
And he took the path to her house
9 In the twilight, in the evening,
In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him,
With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.
11 She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square,
Lurking at every corner.
13 So she caught him and kissed him;
With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “ I have peace offerings with me;
Today I have paid my vows. (A religious harlot)
15 So I came out to meet you,
Diligently to seek your face,
And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry,
Colored coverings of Egyptian linen.
17 I have perfumed my bed
With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning;
Let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home;
He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him,
And will come home on the appointed day.”
21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks,
23 Till an arrow struck his liver.
As a bird hastens to the snare,
He did not know it would cost his life.
24 Now therefore, listen to me, my children;
Pay attention to the words of my mouth:
25 Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways,
Do not stray into her paths;
26 For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell,
Descending to the chambers of death.


All your answers are found elswhere in Scripture, this is a good one of a "religious" harlot to get you started.

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 11:22 PM
That's basically how I see it as well. When I read that phrase "Come out of her, my people" in Revelation 18:4, it reminds me of this passage:

2 Corinthians 6
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

In this passage the Lord is saying to come out of spiritual darkness, fellowship with unrighteousness, idol worship, false religion, and such.

I'm glad someone over here did. :lol: I see you decided to live dangerously for a moment here. :rofl:

Bryan43
Aug 12th 2008, 11:49 PM
the woman is a harlot.

Look up what a harlot is. it is a false wife. or a substitute or fake wife who attempts to take the wifes place in life.

the women then is the false church. or the church that attempts to take the place of the true church at the wedding of the lamb.

the city happens to be the city that destroyed jerusalem. if you can guess which one that is.

and her phylosophies, or religion comes from babylon. the first false religion that taught of a mother who lost a child, who was then ressurected three days.

she is said to be so close to the real child. that it would be easy to be pursuaded by her charm.

in other words. She fools many people into believing she is the real church. when in reality she is just the harlot.

and like the true harlot who does not think she is realy doing harm. just trying to make a living, she does not realise her mistake. and probably will not until she is destroyed by the antichrist, because of her threat to him

Joyfulparousia
Aug 13th 2008, 02:07 AM
I read it, what do you mean. It seems like she is attached to multiple systems and people.

I think Pinky is attempting to get you to say Jerusalem. Sorry if I gave it away.:rolleyes:

However, I hold that this is talking about Babylon, the literal rebuilt city. There have been many attempts to actually rebuild a city over the ruins of ancient Babylon. The late Saddam Hussein had plans to rebuild Babylon, make it a huge tourist attraction, and place one of his palaces there....however, his life was cut short due to various questionable activities. ;)

IMO the references mentioned in Rev. 18:23 about lamps and the voices of brides and bridegrooms don't have direct symbolic meaning for the gospel and believers. I think it just means there won't be lights or people getting married in the city.

We know from the verse below that unbelievers are given in marriage right before the Second Coming.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark...

Remember that before 1948 common opinion was to spiritualize prophetic passages about Israel because Israel wasn't yet a recognized nation. However, when Israel became a nation after WWII believers could literally read and believe the passages speaking of the Israel again. I believe the same to be true about the city of Babylon. While there is no current Babylon, I think we can expect the city to be rebuilt and fulfill all the prophecies concerning her rise to economic and religious power; and her final destruction.

manichunter
Aug 13th 2008, 03:03 AM
I think Pinky is attempting to get you to say Jerusalem. Sorry if I gave it away.:rolleyes:

However, I hold that this is talking about Babylon, the literal rebuilt city. There have been many attempts to actually rebuild a city over the ruins of ancient Babylon. The late Saddam Hussein had plans to rebuild Babylon, make it a huge tourist attraction, and place one of his palaces there....however, his life was cut short due to various questionable activities. ;)

IMO the references mentioned in Rev. 18:23 about lamps and the voices of brides and bridegrooms don't have direct symbolic meaning for the gospel and believers. I think it just means there won't be lights or people getting married in the city.

We know from the verse below that unbelievers are given in marriage right before the Second Coming.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark...

Remember that before 1948 common opinion was to spiritualize prophetic passages about Israel because Israel wasn't yet a recognized nation. However, when Israel became a nation after WWII believers could literally read and believe the passages speaking of the Israel again. I believe the same to be true about the city of Babylon. While there is no current Babylon, I think we can expect the city to be rebuilt and fulfill all the prophecies concerning her rise to economic and religious power; and her final destruction.

I did not get that from pinky, maybe. I thought she was trying to induce me to study on my own, which I had no problem with. The Scripture uses the singular for bride and groom , plus the Lord in the earlier part of Revelations loves to talk about taking away lamps and light. I was just wondering.

third hero
Aug 13th 2008, 04:01 AM
Is the passage of Scripture referring to the some aspect of the preceived Chruch during the end times?

Is God saying that some element of the Church's institution completely false? Who is this women symbolic of? The Scripture seems to indicate that it is the false church that is preceived to be the true church by most saints and the world until the time of its end.


Revelation 18: 21-24 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."


Help me out here! Who is this women and what does this Scripture mean in reference to her?


She appeared to have some association with God I do not understand. The light in the lamp, the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride gets removed from her. The gospel, songs, craftsmen, and other things get removed as well. It seems like they get in trouble over money and sorcery.


I need help. Thanks greatly.

OK, a little background check is necessary. Whenever something in the Bible is referred to as a woman, then it is usually either a nation or a city. Jerusalem, the Whore of Babylon, Tyre and Damascus, to name a few, wer described in the Bible with the pronouns, "she/her". When reading Revelation, we see both of these in practice.

IN chapter 12, Israel is personnified as a woman. There was another woman who was personnified. The woman known as the Whore of Babylon. She is described in chapter 17, with the definition being verse 18. So, when you read the verses in question, in chapter 18, look back to chapter 17 for your answer, because that is where you will find it.

I'm sorry this is brief but time is not on my side at the moment, and I gotta go. I hope this helps a little.

RogerW
Aug 13th 2008, 04:01 AM
Is the passage of Scripture referring to the some aspect of the preceived Chruch during the end times?

Is God saying that some element of the Church's institution completely false? Who is this women symbolic of? The Scripture seems to indicate that it is the false church that is preceived to be the true church by most saints and the world until the time of its end.

Revelation 18: 21-24 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

Help me out here! Who is this women and what does this Scripture mean in reference to her?

She appeared to have some association with God I do not understand. The light in the lamp, the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride gets removed from her. The gospel, songs, craftsmen, and other things get removed as well. It seems like they get in trouble over money and sorcery.

I need help. Thanks greatly.

Greetings Manic,

CHRIST SAYS THE JEWS, REPRESENTATIVES OF JERUSALEM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MURDERING ALL THE RIGHTEOUS OF THE EARTH.

Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Lu 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Lu 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

CHRIST TELLS US THAT BABYLON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF ALL THE RIGHTEOUS UPON THE EARTH.

Re 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Re 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

JERUSALEM IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jer 22:8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?

La 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

BABYLON IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Re 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Re 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Re 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate
Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

JERUSALEM IS MADE DESOLATE.

Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Lu 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Lu 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

La 5:18 Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

Eze 12:19 And say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and of the land of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence of all them that dwell therein.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BABYLON IS MADE DESOLATE.

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Re 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

We can’t look at Rev 17 & 18 in chronological order. If we do that then we would have to wonder how Babylon can even exist in 17 & 18 since there is no more history after chapter 16. In chapter 16 all the vials have been poured out, there has been the battle of antichrist with Gog and Magog in Armageddon, and great Babylon has been in the winepress of the wrath of God. Shall we also look at the wrath of God toward Babylon in Rev 16 as the end of time? Babylon is no more? Very obviously we cannot view chapters 17 & 18 chronologically. Both of these chapters are simply giving more detail for something that has already happened. Much like we find in Genesis 1 & 2.

We find Jerusalem described as Babylonian in character (Sodom and Egypt) in Rev 11 where she persecutes the witnesses of Jesus. Again, we read of her fall in Rev 14:8 “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

The vision of the fall of Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 is much like the prophesy Christ spoke to His disciples. Just as His prophesy includes events that take place in the near future of the disciples, also much of His prophetic words will be fulfilled throughout the NT church era, and the end of time.

What we see in Rev 17 & 18 is a description of the literal destruction of Jerusalem, but also sure promise that every abominable harlot in the world, everyone who is owned by Satan will meet with the same wrath. The literal destruction of Jerusalem symbolizes the destruction that will come upon all the unsaved of the earth whether they be in an apostate church, a faithful church, or in the world. Just as the NT disciples were warned by Christ to flee to the mountains when they see Judea surrounded by the armies, so they heeded the warning to “come out of her my people” so too, Christians are warned to flee from harlotry, and abomination wherever it may be found. We are constantly reminded in Scripture to be wise, and keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by the pollutions of the world all around us.

1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Babylon doesn’t fall FOR one hour, she falls IN one hour. This is symbolic, describing the literal fall of Jerusalem as coming very quickly. So too at the end of time the wrath of God will be poured out quickly upon the earth.

Ro 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

God used the Roman Empire to bring Jerusalem to ruin, but even though Rome ruled, and had authority over Jerusalem, still Jerusalem had her vassal kings.

No doubt there are, and always have been counterfeit churches in the world. These commit harlotry and are an abomination unto God. These will experience the same wrath of God we see literally poured out upon Jerusalem.

Many Blessings,
RW

scourge39
Aug 13th 2008, 04:51 AM
Revelation 18:21-24 is describing God's judgment upon the world's godless economic system. Jeremiah 51:59-64 is the background for Revelation 18:21-24. Jeremiah refers to Israel as an adulteress for not being 100% Spiritually loyal to Yahweh. John is using a similar motif to describe the Spiritual condition of and resulting judgment upon the world.

Ta-An
Aug 13th 2008, 05:01 AM
How is the bridegroom, the bride, songs, and everything else related to Jerusalem. It seems like this has something to do with christianity.

Jerusalem had been destroyed by John's prophesy. Plus Jerusalem is not under Christian influence or authority at this time. This prophecy is some how attached to christianity. That is why the groom, and the bride are associated with it. The old Jewish religion has been without the bride and groom since Jesus was resurrected.

I went to check my Bible, the heading is Babylon.
You say something to do with Christianity............ now I am shooting from the hip.... what about the RC?

scourge39
Aug 13th 2008, 05:08 AM
No it's not the RC. That was a popular view among fundamentalists from the 1950's to the 1980's, but given what we know of Revelation and Babylon as a historical place during the OT period, John is describing a government that has taken on the form of a religion and oppressed God's people, just like Babylon (aka Chaldea) did during the time of Daniel and the other exilic OT-prophets. It is totally disconnected from the Church itself. It's doubtful that John is referring to a particular Christian denomination.

lenbache
Aug 13th 2008, 10:19 AM
Is the passage of Scripture referring to the some aspect of the preceived Chruch during the end times?

Is God saying that some element of the Church's institution completely false? Who is this women symbolic of? The Scripture seems to indicate that it is the false church that is preceived to be the true church by most saints and the world until the time of its end.


Revelation 18: 21-24 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."


Help me out here! Who is this women and what does this Scripture mean in reference to her?


She appeared to have some association with God I do not understand. The light in the lamp, the voice of the Bridegroom and Bride gets removed from her. The gospel, songs, craftsmen, and other things get removed as well. It seems like they get in trouble over money and sorcery.


I need help. Thanks greatly.

The "woman", the "harlot", "Babylon"; these are all references to the European AMERICANS, also described as "the ten kings" in Rev.17:12, and Dan.7:24.

Being a European American myself, it's referring to me.....and, you as well, if you're an American, and of European/caucasian descent.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 12:38 PM
I think Pinky is attempting to get you to say Jerusalem. Sorry if I gave it away.:rolleyes:

However, I hold that this is talking about Babylon, the literal rebuilt city. There have been many attempts to actually rebuild a city over the ruins of ancient Babylon. The late Saddam Hussein had plans to rebuild Babylon, make it a huge tourist attraction, and place one of his palaces there....however, his life was cut short due to various questionable activities. ;)

IMO the references mentioned in Rev. 18:23 about lamps and the voices of brides and bridegrooms don't have direct symbolic meaning for the gospel and believers. I think it just means there won't be lights or people getting married in the city.

We know from the verse below that unbelievers are given in marriage right before the Second Coming.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark...

Remember that before 1948 common opinion was to spiritualize prophetic passages about Israel because Israel wasn't yet a recognized nation. However, when Israel became a nation after WWII believers could literally read and believe the passages speaking of the Israel again. I believe the same to be true about the city of Babylon. While there is no current Babylon, I think we can expect the city to be rebuilt and fulfill all the prophecies concerning her rise to economic and religious power; and her final destruction.

I do not agree here. In order for this to be true babylon would have to become a world power again. Look at what she is supposed to be. Very rich, influential in world afairs, etc etc.

Balylon as a city might have fallen, but her religion never fell. it is still around in part today.

I do believe this is the "babylon" spoken of. Not the city, but the religion, which was the origional fake. most pegan beliefs, including roman and greek come from this religion.

all have the "queen of heaven" who "gave birth to the child". etc etc.

plus the other religious practices that sprang out of babylonian physlosophy or religion, whcih we still see practiced today

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 01:24 PM
No it's not the RC. That was a popular view among fundamentalists from the 1950's to the 1980's, but given what we know of Revelation and Babylon as a historical place during the OT period, John is describing a government that has taken on the form of a religion and oppressed God's people, just like Babylon (aka Chaldea) did during the time of Daniel and the other exilic OT-prophets. It is totally disconnected from the Church itself. It's doubtful that John is referring to a particular Christian denomination


Not to get into a denominational debate. But not all denominations are true churches. many would be classified as a false church, or false bride. There is one church that leads this "false" doctrine or false gospel. and the others fall with her.

No one can be certain which church it is. This might not happen for 1000 more years. even jesus said of that day or that time no man knows But God himself. and the churches we have today might not even be in existance then in denominational form.

so yes. we can not say for certain. but we can look to the church (false) the resembles the origional ( babylon) to get a picture of what John is tryong to say and who it is at least who it could be today.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 13th 2008, 03:15 PM
I do not agree here. In order for this to be true babylon would have to become a world power again. Look at what she is supposed to be. Very rich, influential in world afairs, etc etc.

Balylon as a city might have fallen, but her religion never fell. it is still around in part today.

I do believe this is the "babylon" spoken of. Not the city, but the religion, which was the origional fake. most pegan beliefs, including roman and greek come from this religion.

all have the "queen of heaven" who "gave birth to the child". etc etc.

plus the other religious practices that sprang out of babylonian physlosophy or religion, whcih we still see practiced today

I think there is a 3 fold understanding to gain from Rev. 17 and 18 (also Jer. 50 and 51 and Is 21

1.) a false religious system of deception which you mentioned

2.) a prosperous economic system

3.) a literal rebuilt city

The language used in Rev. 17:18 clearly indicates a literal city and that is destroyed (in part) by the 10 kings in the Antichrist coalition.

And the woman that you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:18

The language used in Jeremiah 50:41-42, and 51:48 align with the 10 kings who destroy this false religious mecca.

Remember that the false religious system that you mentioned is only a tool used by Antichrist to dull and deceive the nations in order to prepare them to worship him as God.

The Babylon religion cannot stand on her own, she must rely on the political and financial savvy of Antichrist, thus she is seen riding on the beast in Rev. 17:3.

She is destroyed because Antichrist does not want a false religious system, he wants ALL the worship of the world (Rev. 13:12).

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 03:25 PM
The language used in Rev. 17:18 clearly indicates a literal city and that is destroyed (in part) by the 10 kings in the Antichrist coalition.

And the woman that you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth. Rev. 17:18

again. this would mean that complete power would come from this city. which as we know. power will come from the former roman empire, in europe somewhere. this i do not see how babylon the "city" could be interpreted here.

However, there is a city of Rome, which sits on seven hills. which has great power and influence all over the earth. She is lead by the "pontifus maximus" the titel given to the pegan high priest. and born by the ceasars of rome until they passed this titel to someone else. who is still in charge today.

again I do not want to get into a fight saying who it is. just want people to think about who it might be. Again, this person might not even be in power someone else might take over, and all this would be nought. I am just saying, if these things occured today. who could it be.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 13th 2008, 04:00 PM
again. this would mean that complete power would come from this city. which as we know. power will come from the former roman empire, in europe somewhere. this i do not see how babylon the "city" could be interpreted here.

However, there is a city of Rome, which sits on seven hills. which has great power and influence all over the earth. She is lead by the "pontifus maximus" the titel given to the pegan high priest. and born by the ceasars of rome until they passed this titel to someone else. who is still in charge today.

again I do not want to get into a fight saying who it is. just want people to think about who it might be. Again, this person might not even be in power someone else might take over, and all this would be nought. I am just saying, if these things occured today. who could it be.

Again, I refer back to my previous analogy in this thread about Israel. Though Babylon is not an inhabited city now, much less an economic/religious power, I'm saying it is possible for this to happen. Give the west and Europe an economic depression, match that with an alliance of Russia, the Arab nations with oil, and the eastern nations with their religions and we have the possibility for our Babylon (which would be a central geographic area) to emerge controlling the world economics and religion.

Though, Bryan I do wholeheartedly agree with your observations of the Babylonian religion, and would like to hear your thoughts (if you have any no pressure) on the origin of false religion. :)

manichunter
Aug 13th 2008, 06:07 PM
God requires his people to come out of her, whoever this women is. Does this means that the saints were attached to her in some way. If God has to tell saints to come out of her, then they were in some fashion within her. If God says come out, then the saints did not even know that their association with this woman was not good. It seems as if God has to enighten them as to what to do and what is good concerning them and the needed separation from the women. Is this correct or am I off.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 13th 2008, 06:49 PM
God requires his people to come out of her, whoever this women is. Does this means that the saints were attached to her in some way. If God has to tell saints to come out of her, then they were in some fashion within her. If God says come out, then the saints did not even know that their association with this woman was not good. It seems as if God has to enighten them as to what to do and what is good concerning them and the needed separation from the women. Is this correct or am I off.

Think of Lot in Sodom. Before the Lord judged Sodom, he "called" Lot out. The same is true in this sense. There may be believers that are preaching the gospel in Babylon, but that doesn't mean they're drinking the same cup of iniquity.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 07:20 PM
Again, I refer back to my previous analogy in this thread about Israel. Though Babylon is not an inhabited city now, much less an economic/religious power, I'm saying it is possible for this to happen. Give the west and Europe an economic depression, match that with an alliance of Russia, the Arab nations with oil, and the eastern nations with their religions and we have the possibility for our Babylon (which would be a central geographic area) to emerge controlling the world economics and religion.

I could possibly see this. However, the world power will be in europe. with the man of sin in charge. the revised roman empire as you might call it. I could not see a future city of babylon having any power under this system.


Though, Bryan I do wholeheartedly agree with your observations of the Babylonian religion, and would like to hear your thoughts (if you have any no pressure) on the origin of false religion. :)

started with the tower of babel. at least babylonialism did. this is where the "religious system" gets its name.

You have the woman. ( the queen) who loses her husband before her child is born. she says her son is her hubby ressurected. Later her son is killed by a wild boar, and brought back to life. and he has come to be the savior of the world. the religion gets its practices from this starting point.

what exactly would you like to know though. this question can go anywhere..lol

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 07:26 PM
God requires his people to come out of her, whoever this women is. Does this means that the saints were attached to her in some way. If God has to tell saints to come out of her, then they were in some fashion within her. If God says come out, then the saints did not even know that their association with this woman was not good. It seems as if God has to enighten them as to what to do and what is good concerning them and the needed separation from the women. Is this correct or am I off.

no your close. many in the true church have fellowship with the false. In doing so. many have left the true church, and joined with the harlot.

If you look at the world today. Talking against anyones religion is called arrogant. we are to accept all forms of religion. Also. if one would look at many denominations. they still practice many false preceptrs that the harlot instituted. such as infant baptism. Confessing sins to a priest and doing penance. to have sins abluted. Worship the "queen of heaven " or Jesus mother Mary. among other things which have their roots in babylonialism.


Think of Lot in Sodom. Before the Lord judged Sodom, he "called" Lot out. The same is true in this sense. There may be believers that are preaching the gospel in Babylon, but that doesn't mean they're drinking the same cup of iniquity.

I wonder if the warning is for all who see this warning that we should test very carefully the church we are attending. and our faith in the gospel we believe. To make sure the gospel we place our faith in is not the one tainted by the harlot. but the true gospel as taught by Christ. does this make sense?? I could be off.

manichunter
Aug 13th 2008, 07:33 PM
no your close. many in the true church have fellowship with the false. In doing so. many have left the true church, and joined with the harlot.

If you look at the world today. Talking against anyones religion is called arrogant. we are to accept all forms of religion. Also. if one would look at many denominations. they still practice many false preceptrs that the harlot instituted. such as infant baptism. Confessing sins to a priest and doing penance. to have sins abluted. Worship the "queen of heaven " or Jesus mother Mary. among other things which have their roots in babylonialism.



I wonder if the warning is for all who see this warning that we should test very carefully the church we are attending. and our faith in the gospel we believe. To make sure the gospel we place our faith in is not the one tainted by the harlot. but the true gospel as taught by Christ. does this make sense?? I could be off.


So this woman is also political and is involved with the secular governments of the world in some capacity. I wonder how so. Is this like a alliance of government and religion that already exist. Do they have ambassadors as such?

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 07:47 PM
So this woman is also political and is involved with the secular governments of the world in some capacity. I wonder how so. Is this like a alliance of government and religion that already exist. Do they have ambassadors as such?

the roman church has embassadors to every country. It is also heavily involved with world politics. many nations will not do anythign without her approval. or at least, do not wish to offend her.

I think I just tipped my hand. and might have started a war I really did not want to start. But the only way I could answer your question.

pinky
Aug 13th 2008, 08:50 PM
There are many verses to further support this......but............Jesus identifies her in one single verse.....


Luk 13:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk013.html#33) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


....for it CANNOT BE that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem



A prophet CANNOT perish outside of Jerusalem.......period.


Rev 18:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev018.html#24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.





Try reading Ezekiel 16 in full. A few verses to make a point though...

Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Abominations? Where have I heard that before? ;)

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.


He entered into a covenant with her that He likens to marriage. However, we can see that she was unfaithful to her Husband....


Eze 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.
35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

Who could be a bigger harlot than one who was at one time married to God.......but was unfaithful to Him?

She is earthly Jerusalem and is no longer the bride of our Father.



The Lord is now faithfully betrothed to the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


We can see today that the first wife still claims to be the true bride. She thinks herself the queen who is still married to the King.


Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

.....she denies that her Husband died.



As a scorned woman she is jealous of the new bride/church.....


Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.


Her religion today is based not on scripture, but the Babylonian Talmud. Essentially the oral laws carried over from the Babylonian exile. These are the oral traditions that Jesus said made God's Word of none effect to them.

The Babylonian exile is also where their Kabbalism comes from. Kabbalism is essentially Chaldean sorcery, black magic......with some Egyptian and eastern mysticism thrown into the mix.

[As an interesting side note, freemasonry is based on kabbalism and talmudism.]

Her house is desolate as her husband does not dwell there anymore, nor is the voice of the Bridegroom heard in it anymore.

Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.



Here is the voice of the Bridegroom........


Jhn 10:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:





Hope this has been helpful.

Love in Christ,
pinky

manichunter
Aug 13th 2008, 09:15 PM
There are many verses to further support this......but............Jesus identifies her in one single verse.....


Luk 13:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk013.html#33) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


....for it CANNOT BE that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem



A prophet CANNOT perish outside of Jerusalem.......period.


Rev 18:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev018.html#24) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.





Try reading Ezekiel 16 in full. A few verses to make a point though...

Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Abominations? Where have I heard that before? ;)

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.


He entered into a covenant with her that He likens to marriage. However, we can see that she was unfaithful to her Husband....


Eze 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.
35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

Who could be a bigger harlot than one who was at one time married to God.......but was unfaithful to Him?

She is earthly Jerusalem and is no longer the bride of our Father.



The Lord is now faithfully betrothed to the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


We can see today that the first wife still claims to be the true bride. She thinks herself the queen who is still married to the King.


Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

.....she denies that her Husband died.



As a scorned woman she is jealous of the new bride/church.....


Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.


Her religion today is based not on scripture, but the Babylonian Talmud. Essentially the oral laws carried over from the Babylonian exile. These are the oral traditions that Jesus said made God's Word of none effect to them.

The Babylonian exile is also where their Kabbalism comes from. Kabbalism is essentially Chaldean sorcery, black magic......with some Egyptian and eastern mysticism thrown into the mix.

[As an interesting side note, freemasonry is based on kabbalism and talmudism.]

Her house is desolate as her husband does not dwell there anymore, nor is the voice of the Bridegroom heard in it anymore.

Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.



Here is the voice of the Bridegroom........


Jhn 10:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:





Hope this has been helpful.

Love in Christ,
pinky

Can it also be a spiritual force behind this that transcends the institutions of mankind. Meaning, where this force of darkness decides to park itself. It could have been within Judiaism, but took the lead within another organization to manifest the same works. Hence it could be that both of you are right. That is Pinky and Joy. The devil has the ability to appear has an angel of light. I believe his greatest device is infiltration and camoflage within the current institute of God. Judiaism is practically dead. The Bride and Groom have long left that institution. Hence I believe it post to a new institution that the Bride and Groom are still associated with, possibly. Who else has power or a place in Jerusalem corrently? Islam, Judiaism, Roman Catholism, and Eastern Orth.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 09:46 PM
remember the true church started in jerusalem. and spread to all areas of the earth.

this was the true bride. the false bride or harlot has it's ruits in this true bride, as they both came from the same place.

however, like the jews, who had Gods word, peganism infiltrated the truth. and instead of living for God. God said they commited spiritual fornication against him. Because they mixed his truth with pegan ritual and beliefs.

The harlot has done the same thing. It started out with truth. and eventually fornicated with pegan ritualism. and thus became the harlot.

JesusisGod
Aug 13th 2008, 10:06 PM
Abel lived before the nation of Israel or the City of Jerusalem existed, so when Jesus said, "Your fathers killed the prophets" and, "The blood of all the prophets will come on this generation", He didn't mean the Jews. He meant unbelievers, regardless of ethnicity.

It is unlikely that Jerusalem is the prophetic whore, because Jerusalem doesn't fit the description of the whore. For instance, Jerusalem doesn't "reign over the kings of the earth" ((Re.17:18). Also, the wealth attained by this "city" is hinted at as being unparalled causing the buisnessmen of the world to lament over her destruction. This doesn't resemble Jerusalem at all.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 10:35 PM
It is unlikely that Jerusalem is the prophetic whore, because Jerusalem doesn't fit the description of the whore. For instance, Jerusalem doesn't "reign over the kings of the earth" ((Re.17:18). Also, the wealth attained by this "city" is hinted at as being unparalled causing the buisnessmen of the world to lament over her destruction. This doesn't resemble Jerusalem at all.


Agreed. I know a church that has that much wealth though. I think if you put all the money she has, she would be concidered the third richest nation on earth.

JesusisGod
Aug 13th 2008, 10:44 PM
Agreed. I know a church that has that much wealth though. I think if you put all the money she has, she would be concidered the third richest nation on earth.

I agree, Bryan, but the Catholic church doesn't control commerce in the world, therefore, if the Catholic church was destroyed, no buisnessman would care.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 11:04 PM
I agree, Bryan, but the Catholic church doesn't control commerce in the world, therefore, if the Catholic church was destroyed, no buisnessman would care.


what does this have to do with anything?? John said she was wealthy. he never said anything about the business in the world crying because she was destroyed.

White Spider
Aug 13th 2008, 11:11 PM
I see some people have suggested the Catholic Church, which is my feeling.

A woman is often a church figuratively in the Bible . . .

The Catholic Church is considered to be full of corruption and lies. And at one time it basically ruled the entire world. "For your merchants were the great men of the earth."

And it was very widespread "by your sorcery all the nations were deceived." In fact probably the largest faction of Christianity even today.

manichunter
Aug 13th 2008, 11:19 PM
I see some people have suggested the Catholic Church, which is my feeling.

A woman is often a church figuratively in the Bible . . .

The Catholic Church is considered to be full of corruption and lies. And at one time it basically ruled the entire world. "For your merchants were the great men of the earth."

And it was very widespread "by your sorcery all the nations were deceived." In fact probably the largest faction of Christianity even today.

You the Jews never had such prominence in the world, maybe they will however. However, I just picked up on something from your text. It conveys that this entity existed for a period of time before the end times long before the tribulation and had a place of global dominance.

Bryan43
Aug 13th 2008, 11:30 PM
You the Jews never had such prominence in the world, maybe they will however. However, I just picked up on something from your text. It conveys that this entity existed for a period of time before the end times long before the tribulation and had a place of global dominance.


Yes and remember, the harlot actually backs the prince that is to come. and is his allie. which is why the prince must totally destroy the harlot before he claims to be the "christ" for the harlot would turn on him. he must get rid of her before he defiles the temple.

plus imagine. if a city is destroyed, who would wail??

but if the roman church was utterly destroyed. imagine the outcry all over the world. especially since roman catholicism is generally recognised around the world as the true church.



Re 18:9-129 s (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)“The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her t (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn2)will weep and lament for her, u (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn3)when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, v (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn4)‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! w (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn5)For in one hour your judgment has come.’
11 “And x (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn6)the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12

And I must appoligise to my last post. i see here where the merchants weep.

Again. if the largest church is destroyed. all the people that belong to her are now gone. and no longer purchase anything.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 07:51 AM
what does this have to do with anything?? John said she was wealthy. he never said anything about the business in the world crying because she was destroyed.
"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandice anymore..." (Re.18:11)
You see, my friend, the whore isn't the Catholic church, or the Jews, or Jerusalem, simply because if any of these entities were annihilated, the tradesmen of the earth wouldn't care. Would they?

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:40 AM
Yes.

Look to scripture ONLY.......and there is only one conclusion.

God bless,
pinky


Only one woman was ever described as a whore, Jerusalem.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:44 AM
I would say false religion. Since people cannot buy and sell or otherwise make a profit without worshiping the false religion. And it is the false religious system that kills the saints "in the name of God". Seems the context of the chapter leans towards false religion, idols. "Come out of her my people", just like God said to Israel in the OT. Stop with the worship of what is false and turn to Me.

You have the answer in your response....... "come out of her MY PEPOLE" is a reference to Israel thus the city is a future rendetion of Jerusalem. Will not Jerusalem be yet destroyed again prior to Christ's return and be rebuilt?

Note at the time of when Babylon is destroyed by the wrath of God "saints" are no longer upon the earth as they have been removed by death at the hands of the little horn.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:50 AM
That's basically how I see it as well. When I read that phrase "Come out of her, my people" in Revelation 18:4, it reminds me of this passage:

2 Corinthians 6
14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

In this passage the Lord is saying to come out of spiritual darkness, fellowship with unrighteousness, idol worship, false religion, and such.

I encourage you to do a OT word search on "my people" it is not too hard to figure whom God is refering.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:55 AM
the woman is a harlot.

Look up what a harlot is. it is a false wife. or a substitute or fake wife who attempts to take the wifes place in life.

the women then is the false church. or the church that attempts to take the place of the true church at the wedding of the lamb.

the city happens to be the city that destroyed jerusalem. if you can guess which one that is.

and her phylosophies, or religion comes from babylon. the first false religion that taught of a mother who lost a child, who was then ressurected three days.

she is said to be so close to the real child. that it would be easy to be pursuaded by her charm.

in other words. She fools many people into believing she is the real church. when in reality she is just the harlot.

and like the true harlot who does not think she is realy doing harm. just trying to make a living, she does not realise her mistake. and probably will not until she is destroyed by the antichrist, because of her threat to him

Let's see...we have 2 women in Revelation one fake and one the real deal. We know the real deal is New Jerusalem so the fake should be like it. And when we check scripture we see some same characteristics.

We need to understand at the time when Babylon or New Jerusalem is upon the earth there are NO religions just a king.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 09:02 AM
Revelation 18:21-24 is describing God's judgment upon the world's godless economic system. .

We need to visulize what the world will be when Babylon of rev 17, 18 is upon the earth. In reality there will be only ONE great city which shall all the nations flow unto as all other cities have been destroyed. In fact all the inhabinants will be somewhat gathered around this city which is the providers of the riches and sustaining life.

Note also where Babylon is located, in a wilderness. A desolate place.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

So when we say "world ecomomic system" it is really only Babylon and it's inhabinants as most other countries have been made desolate with Babylon starting anew.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 09:12 AM
So this woman is also political and is involved with the secular governments of the world in some capacity. I wonder how so. Is this like a alliance of government and religion that already exist. Do they have ambassadors as such?

Like the kingdom of God, this kingdom also has a government. Babylon is the kingdom of Satan a kingdom which has existed but yet upon the earth.


The devil has the ability to appear has an angel of light. I believe his greatest device is infiltration and camoflage within the current institute of God. Judiaism is practically dead. The Bride and Groom have long left that institution. Hence I believe it post to a new institution that the Bride and Groom are still associated with, possibly. Who else has power or a place in Jerusalem corrently? Islam, Judiaism, Roman Catholism, and Eastern Orth.

Getting closer........Note the devil will be claiming to be God this time and preside over a kingdom (Babylon) which shall rule the world. Sound familar? His power will be the people of all denominations which receive the mark and unite as one serving him.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 09:20 AM
It is unlikely that Jerusalem is the prophetic whore, because Jerusalem doesn't fit the description of the whore. For instance, Jerusalem doesn't "reign over the kings of the earth" ((Re.17:18). Also, the wealth attained by this "city" is hinted at as being unparalled causing the buisnessmen of the world to lament over her destruction. This doesn't resemble Jerusalem at all.


How about (new) Jerusalem .......


"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandice anymore..." (Re.18:11)
You see, my friend, the whore isn't the Catholic church, or the Jews, or Jerusalem, simply because if any of these entities were annihilated, the tradesmen of the earth wouldn't care. Would they?

How about if they thought they were in the midst of (new) Jerusalem? What a shock on their face, the city in which they sold their lives by accepting the mark and the king which deceived them and promised them eternal life, riches, and safety now "gone up in smoke". (this saying probably originated here).

pinky
Aug 14th 2008, 01:16 PM
Only one woman was ever described as a whore, Jerusalem.


Yes indeed.

Scripture clearly identifies her.

I can understand how some may find it difficult to see how this ties into current events because the church has been greatly misled about this religion and it's history........and it's financial and political power today.


Imho, to help understand how the merchants of the earth have become rich through her, I suggest one take the time to research the international banking families and the subject of usury.........just for starters.


I see that this mother of harlots is the synagogue.....of satan.


In the Truth of Jesus Christ,
pinky

White Spider
Aug 14th 2008, 01:33 PM
If this is the same woman (whore) that sits on the beast with 7 heads (which are also seven hills) I think it should be quite obvious it's the Roman Catholic Church.

Rome is the city of the Seven Hills.

Rome is the planned location of the "Palace of Religions" which is like a U.N. for religions.

You have things like "The Club of Rome."

The EU is now the economic power of the world and was essentially created after the the signing of the "Treaties of Rome".

To me, everything just points to ROME.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 01:46 PM
How about (new) Jerusalem .......

How about if they thought they were in the midst of (new) Jerusalem? What a shock on their face, the city in which they sold their lives by accepting the mark and the king which deceived them and promised them eternal life, riches, and safety now "gone up in smoke". (this saying probably originated here).
Ross,
That would mean that the Nation of Israel must first attain the position of ruling over other world governments.

"And the woman which you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Re.17:18)

Also, sometime after the whore is destroyed, the natrions of the earth attempt to destroy the "camp of the saints". (Re.20:9) This scripture parallels Exekiel 38 & 39, where the camp of the saints would equal Israel.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 01:51 PM
"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her for no man buys their merchandice anymore..." (Re.18:11)
You see, my friend, the whore isn't the Catholic church, or the Jews, or Jerusalem, simply because if any of these entities were annihilated, the tradesmen of the earth wouldn't care. Would they?

actually I corrected myself and answered this question.

and yes they would. if the vatican was destroyed and all those who are in her. imagine how many less people will be buying or selling goods?? No different than if a city was destroyed. Anything this big would affect trade.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 01:56 PM
We need to visulize what the world will be when Babylon of rev 17, 18 is upon the earth. In reality there will be only ONE great city which shall all the nations flow unto as all other cities have been destroyed. In fact all the inhabinants will be somewhat gathered around this city which is the providers of the riches and sustaining life.
tis makes no sense. The world would have seen peace for 3 1/2 years. and the man of sin ( who is not yet known ) has been in chare, and given peace and prosperity to the word.

the harlot is destroyed before the man of sin is revieled, he must destroy the harlot before he enters the holy of holys and defiles it. calling himself God, for the harlo would reject him, and possibly destroy him. because remember the harlot is only a harlot because she thinks she is right. it is in her ignorance that she is wrong. she still believes in the true God. just rejects his salvation. and would not tolerate for one minute the antichrist. so he must destroy her.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 01:58 PM
Note the devil will be claiming to be God this time and preside over a kingdom (Babylon) which shall rule the world. Sound familar? His power will be the people of all denominations which receive the mark and unite as one serving him.

the antichrist rules over the reformed roman empire, which is in europe. Not babylon. it is him who destroys babylon. before she becomes a threat to him.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 02:00 PM
If this is the same woman (whore) that sits on the beast with 7 heads (which are also seven hills) I think it should be quite obvious it's the Roman Catholic Church.

Rome is the city of the Seven Hills.

Rome is the planned location of the "Palace of Religions" which is like a U.N. for religions.

You have things like "The Club of Rome."

The EU is now the economic power of the world and was essentially created after the the signing of the "Treaties of Rome".

To me, everything just points to ROME.


yes and it should. rome is the power to come, the harlot at first supports the power. He destroys the harlot before he reveals who he truely is. he decieves her, and it will be his deception that causes her, as well as all on earth to support him.

However, when he claims to be god. she will no longer support, but be a threat. the rest of the world will cry out. but will be too late.

now comes 3 1/2 years unlike any the earth has ever seen.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 02:04 PM
Ross,
That would mean that the Nation of Israel must first attain the position of ruling over other world governments.

"And the woman which you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Re.17:18)

Also, sometime after the whore is destroyed, the natrions of the earth attempt to destroy the "camp of the saints". (Re.20:9) This scripture parallels Exekiel 38 & 39, where the camp of the saints would equal Israel.

Agreed! Isreal is not the whore. she has no resemblance to the church, in beliefs, They are still looking for the messiah, they have not claimed to be his bride.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 02:44 PM
and yes they would. if the vatican was destroyed and all those who are in her. imagine how many less people will be buying or selling goods?? No different than if a city was destroyed. Anything this big would affect trade.
It would affect some trade, but it wouldn't stop it. The text seems to say that trade is halted for good ("...no man buys their merchandice anymore.")
Bryan,
I jumped into this conversation a little late and you may have already answered this, but how could the Catholic Church be the whore, when the whore is described as reigning over the kings of the earth? The Church doesn't rule over any nation, not even Italy.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 02:51 PM
It would affect some trade, but it wouldn't stop it. The text seems to say that trade is halted for good ("...no man buys their merchandice anymore.")
Bryan,
I jumped into this conversation a little late and you may have already answered this, but how could the Catholic Church be the whore, when the whore is described as reigning over the kings of the earth? The Church doesn't rule over any nation, not even Italy.

actually no one will be able to purchase, unless the recieve the mark of the beast, which will be instituted soon after this.

secondly. rome has reigned over kings for centuries. yes she might not have the power of kings behind her now. but anyone who thinks she does not have influence well, I beg to differ.

lastly. name a false church who claimes to be the true bride that has as much influence as the roman church? I beg ya to find one that more closely fits the description of the false bride than the roman church. if you can find one. I will listen.

manichunter
Aug 14th 2008, 02:52 PM
It would affect some trade, but it wouldn't stop it. The text seems to say that trade is halted for good ("...no man buys their merchandice anymore.")
Bryan,
I jumped into this conversation a little late and you may have already answered this, but how could the Catholic Church be the whore, when the whore is described as reigning over the kings of the earth? The Church doesn't rule over any nation, not even Italy.

What do you think Babylon is a symbol. How did Babylon effect the world and Judah. What does Babylon represent.

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 03:06 PM
What do you think Babylon is a symbol. How did Babylon effect the world and Judah. What does Babylon represent.

babylon, first go to the begining. the tower of babel. where babylonian peganism started.

also remember, the people were spread out over the earth, and took the beliefs with them.

babylon can be seen in Baal, who isreal commited fornication with.

in the same token. the church has commited fornication with babylon. adding much of her religion to the churches doctrines. thus we have a distorted church. much like isreal in the time of her fornication with peganism.

does this make sense??

manichunter
Aug 14th 2008, 03:18 PM
babylon, first go to the begining. the tower of babel. where babylonian peganism started.

also remember, the people were spread out over the earth, and took the beliefs with them.

babylon can be seen in Baal, who isreal commited fornication with.

in the same token. the church has commited fornication with babylon. adding much of her religion to the churches doctrines. thus we have a distorted church. much like isreal in the time of her fornication with peganism.

does this make sense??+

Yes, a whole lot of sense......... Babylon like the infusion of Easter and Christmas into Christianity you mean, plus a few other pagan rituals and symbols

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 03:34 PM
+

Yes, a whole lot of sense......... Babylon like the infusion of Easter and Christmas into Christianity you mean, plus a few other pagan rituals and symbols

exactly, those and many other things that was intertwined over the years in the church.

manichunter
Aug 14th 2008, 03:40 PM
exactly, those and many other things that was intertwined over the years in the church.

So this woman does have some connections to the church. How do we come out of her. Do we discover how this woman has attached herself to us and distach ourselves. Where do we flee to? What should I attach myself to if not the woman?

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 03:59 PM
So this woman does have some connections to the church. How do we come out of her. Do we discover how this woman has attached herself to us and distach ourselves. Where do we flee to? What should I attach myself to if not the woman?

make sure any church your going to does not practice the same stuff she practices.

most of all. make sure the gospel your depending on for your eternal life is the one taught by God. not the one followed by her, or many who have come from her.

White Spider
Aug 14th 2008, 05:18 PM
Also note that the Pope says it is alright to believe in Aliens (which if they do exist will probably be Satan and his fallen angels.)

The Pope and the Catholic church are also teaching the coming of a world teacher to be soon (what better figure than that for Satan to use to get his start.)

- - - - - - - -

And for whoever said the Catholic Church doesn't have power, not to be rude, but wake up.

Catholicism has it's hands in nearly every country, and more power and influence throughout the world than any nation.

The members of the Catholic Church compose of one-sixth of the world's population and over half of all Christian's.

It is older than 2,000 years old and is the world's oldest and largest institution.

Since at least the fourth century it has played a role in the history of Western civilization.

The Catholic Church claims it is the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" founded by Jesus.

In 530, Saint Benedict wrote his monastic Rule, the new monasteries, as well as providing a focus for spiritual life functioned as agricultural, economic and production centers.

The Cluniac reform of monasteries that had begun in 910 sparked widespread monastic growth and renewal. Monasteries introduced new crops, developed technologies such as metallurgy, and fostered the creation and preservation of literature. They could also function as credit establishments promoting economic growth. Monasteries, convents and cathedrals still operated virtually all schools and libraries.

Note they operated all the schools and libraries.

When you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. ~ Carter G. Woodson

The Church controlled everyone's thinking.

In the late 15th and early 16th centuries, European explorers and missionaries spread Catholicism to the Americas, Asia, Africa and Oceania.

The Catholic Church basically held a position of world dominance until Napoleon Bonaparte exiled the Pope.

About 1800 years of controlling everyone's minds, controlling the world economy, etc.

All the Kings fornicated with her, merchants got rich off her . . .

If any one institution ever had power it's the Catholic Church.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 05:36 PM
actually no one will be able to purchase, unless the recieve the mark of the beast, which will be instituted soon after this.
The mark is instituted before the whore is destroyed. Regardless, it appears that commerce has stopped because of her destruction. If the Catholic Church is the whore, world trade would have to center around her. It doesn't.

secondly. rome has reigned over kings for centuries. yes she might not have the power of kings behind her now. but anyone who thinks she does not have influence well, I beg to differ.
What you say is true, but the text says the whore rules over the kings of the earth, not merely exerts influence. And, (at least in the country I live [the USA]) the Catholic Church has no real influence. Even when the Pope visits, it's just a show. Nobody in government cares about what the Pope thinks.

lastly. name a false church who claimes to be the true bride that has as much influence as the roman church? I beg ya to find one that more closely fits the description of the false bride than the roman church. if you can find one. I will listen.
I don't think I could name one, but you assume the whore is a church. There are a number of problems with this. For one, there is a command from Heaven for Gods people to "come out of her". (Re.18:4) By and large, Gods people aren't inside the Catholic Church, so the command for Gods people to come out of her makes no sense if the Church is the whore.
Then, there is the problem of how the whore is destroyed. She is annihilated in one day by 10 countries. Since the Catholic Church is spread worldwide, it wouldn't be possible for humans to accomplish her destruction in such a short period of time.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 05:39 PM
What do you think Babylon is a symbol. How did Babylon effect the world and Judah. What does Babylon represent.
Ancient Babylon was a country that enslaved Gods people. I think it's possible that prophetic Babylon is the USA.

John146
Aug 14th 2008, 06:13 PM
Only one woman was ever described as a whore, Jerusalem.Not quite.

Ezekiel 23
4And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. 5And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

16And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea. 17And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

Nahum 3
4Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
5Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
6And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.
7And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?

Samaria, Babylon and Nineveh were all cities described as whores/harlots.


I encourage you to do a OT word search on "my people" it is not too hard to figure whom God is refering.You do realize that the book of Revelation is a New Testament book, right?

Who are God's people today? Only Jews? No. God's people are found throughout the world. All Christians are God's people. God is telling His people throughout the world to come out of Babylon. Babylon cannot be confined only to Jerusalem. It is found throughout the world. It is not an earthly city. It is the direct counterpart to the heavenly city, New Jerusalem, which is the bride/wife of the Lamb. Babylon is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit" (Rev 18:2). Do devils and foul spirits only dwell in earthly Jerusalem?

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

If Babylon was modern-day Jerusalem, do you actually think that "the kings of the earth" would lament over her destruction?

Joyfulparousia
Aug 14th 2008, 06:40 PM
Ancient Babylon was a country that enslaved Gods people. I think it's possible that prophetic Babylon is the USA.

The USA has a population of 9 million Jews, all of whom that are citizens have equal rights as any other American citizen. The US, under the leadership of Harry S Truman, was the key nation that initiated the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948. The reason that Israel still exists is solely because American funding and military surplus. The Israelis realize, and openly admit, that America is their only true ally.

Of course, we get to Zech 12 and see that every nation turns their back on her.

Babylon was not the only nation that enslaved Israel either, Egypt and Assyria were big ones as well.

Why is USA the prophetic Babylon? IMO, if we were having this conversation in the early 1940's you'd probably be saying the Germany is the prophetic Babylon.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 07:47 PM
Hi Joyfulparousia.
You're right. I think it can be shown that people throughout the centuries who care about what the Bible says will happen have tried to figure out who the whore is. On my part, the USA is only a guess and I could be entirely wrong, but I see opinions of Jerusalem or the Catholic Church offered which make little to no sense when examined against the text of the Bible.
Would the business community weep over the destruction of the Catholic Church or Jerusalem? Maybe a little, but "life" would go on. The Bible seems to be describing an entity whose destruction would be catistrophic to world trade. I'm not all that smart when it comes to the ways of the world, but I think New York City's (Wall St.'s) destruction would cripple (or kill) world trade in our age.
The "city" described as the whore has been depicted on this forum as a religion, or an actual city, but what if it's a country? The Bibles prophecy says the people say, "What city is like this great city?" (Re.18:18). I think in any age, we should look at the greatest city (or country?) that has ever existed.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 07:53 PM
I can understand how some may find it difficult to see how this ties into current events because the church has been greatly misled about this religion and it's history........and it's financial and political power today.

It has actually nothing to do with current events. What we see now will be much different than when Babylon rises. Prior to Babylon rising the political and finacial power today will be wiped out. There will be no other power but ONE king.

Think of it likened as a time when the kingdom of God is upon the earth.

Mark

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:01 PM
Ross,
That would mean that the Nation of Israel must first attain the position of ruling over other world governments.

"And the woman which you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Re.17:18)

Why? We are talking about new Jerusalem not current day earthly Jerusalem. Like new Jerusalem, Babylon will include the church as well as Israel. When Babylon rises out of the ashes there will be no other governments......do you not see this?

Mark

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE=Bryan43;1748895]tis makes no sense. The world would have seen peace for 3 1/2 years. and the man of sin ( who is not yet known ) has been in chare, and given peace and prosperity to the word.

There is no 7 year period. Peace does not come until the little horn whom is only on the earth for 42 months goes first to destroy his enemies after which the inhabinants upon the earth will claim peace and safety.


the harlot is destroyed before the man of sin is revieled,

??

The harlot is the city where this man of sin rules.....

The revealing of his true identity (Satan) does not occur until Christ returns and destroys him.


he must destroy the harlot before he enters the holy of holys and defiles it. calling himself God, for the harlo would reject him, and possibly destroy him. because remember the harlot is only a harlot because she thinks she is right. it is in her ignorance that she is wrong. she still believes in the true God. just rejects his salvation. and would not tolerate for one minute the antichrist. so he must destroy her.

The harlot and the AC are city and king. Again the king will rule from this city however part of his kingdom will divide and go to destroy his city.

Mark

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:14 PM
the antichrist rules over the reformed roman empire, which is in europe. Not babylon. it is him who destroys babylon. before she becomes a threat to him.

It is unfortunate that these false teaching have become such fact.

The AC rules from his base which is Babylon. The scarlet coulored beast is the AC dressed in a purple vesture claiming king ship. There is no revieved Roman empire.

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


Mark

Bryan43
Aug 14th 2008, 08:23 PM
maybe this will help. I used to think it was the USA until I read this. this changed my mind. and I have found nothign since, nor have I heard anything in this thread that has changed my opinion.. so if you have something better. feel free. I am always open.

Who is the harlot of rev 17? Rev 17 describes a judgment on the great harlot. the apostate religious system that exists in the tribulation period.The apostate religious system that excists in the tribulation period. The unbelieving professing church went into the tribulation period ( rev 2: 22 ; 3: 10 ) and a great religious system under the domination of the great harlot arose.
Who is the harlot?
1. Bears the representation of a harlot ( rev 17: 1-2, 15 - 16. It claimed to be christs bride, but had fallen from its pure purpose and had become a harlot.
2. a leader in ecclesiastical affairs. rev 17 : 2. 5. Spiritual fornication in scripture is an adherance to a false religious system.
3. the system is a leader in political affairs ( rev 17:3 ) it is seen to be controlling the beast for which it sits.
4 the system has become very rich and influential ( rev 17: 4)
5. The system represents the stage of development of christiondom that was hithertoo unrevieled ( rev 17: 5) in that it was called the " mystery "
6. the system has been a great persecutor of the saints. (rev 17: 6 )
7. the system is an organised system of worldwide scope ( rev 17 : 15)
8. The system will be destroyed by the beast, the head of the roman coalition, so that his supremace may not be threatened ( rev 17: 16 - 17 )

The identity of the harlot.
we can trace therelationship between ancient babylon and the doctrine and practice of the harlot system called mystery babylon. the woman is the religious system, who dominates the civil power at least for a time. the name on her forhead should easily enable us to identify her. but in order to do it. we must go back to old testament, and see literal babylon, for one will surely throw light on another.
The founder of babylon was nimrod, whose unholy achievments we read in the 10 chapter of genesis. He was arch apostate of the patriarchal age, he presuaded his associates and followers to join together in building a city and tower which would reach into heaven, to be recognised as a temple or rallying center for those who did not walk in obedience to the word . their city was called bab-EL which means " the gate of God " God soon changed it to babel or confusion. . it bore the stamp of reality from the first. for we are told they had brick for stone and slime for morter, An imitation of that which is real and true that has characterised Babylon in all ages.
If we return to ancient lore, we find that nimrods son was Nimrod Bar Cush and tells us his wife was simerimus the first. She is reputed to have been the foundres of the babylonian mysteries and the first high priestes of idolotry. Thus babylon became the foundation for idolotry and the mother of every heathen and pagan system of the world. As it spread in various forms around the earth and is with us today and shall have its fullest development when the Holy Spirit has departed and the babylon of the Apocolypse holds sway.
Building on the primeval promise of the womans seed who was to Come ( jesus ) Semerimus bore a son, whome she declared was miraculously concieved, and when she presented him, he was hailed as the promised deliverer. This was Tammuz, whose worship ezekial protested aginst in the days of the captivity. Thus was introduced the mystery of the mother and the child, a form of idolotry that is older than any known to amn. The rites of the worship were secret, only the initiated where permitted to know its mysteries. It was Satans effort to delude mankind with an imitation so like the truth of God that they would not know the true seed of the woman when he came in the fullness of time.
From Babylon the mystry religion spread to allsurrounding nations, everywhere the symbols were the same. and everywhere the cult of the Mother and the Child became the popular system. They where celebrated and worshiped with the most discusting of immoral practices. The image of the queen of heaven with the babe in her arms was seen everywhereThe names change as languages changed. From Astorith and tammuz in phoneacia, Isis and Horus in egypt. Aphrodite and Eros in greece, Venus and Cupid in Italy. within 1000 years it became the religion of the world.
Linked with this mystery were countless lesser mysteries. Amoung these were doctrines of purgatorial purification after death, Salvation by countless sacriments such as priestly ablusion, sprinking with holy water, offering of round cakes to the queen, as mentioned in jeremia. Dedication of virgins to the gods. weeping for tammuz for a period of 40 days prior the festival of ishtar, who was said to have recieved her son back from ther dead. For it was taught that tammuz was slain by a wild bore and afterwords brought back to life. To him the egg was sacred, as depicting the mystery of his ressurection ( easter ) even as the evergreen was chosen as a symbol to represent his birth at the winter solstice. A boars head was eaten in memory of its conflict and a yule log burned with many mysterious observances ( christmas) the sign of the cross was sacred to tammuz, as symbolising the life giving principle and as the first letter of his name. It was represented on vast number of altars and temples, and did not, as many believe, origionate with christianity.
when babylon was overthrown and the city and temples destrouyed. we find the the high priest fled with a company of initiates. and traveled through pergomus till he eventually led in Italy. their the ancient cult was propogated under the etruscan mysteries, and eventually Rpme bacame the headquartes of babylonialism. The chief priests wore mitres shaped like the head of a fish in honor of the fish God dagon, the Lord of Life. The chief priest in rome took on the title pontifus maximus and this was imprinted on his mitre, when julius ceaser, had become head of the state, he was elected pontifus maximus and this title was held hencforth by all roman emporors until constantine the great., who as at one time was head of the church, and high priest of the heathen.

The titel was afterwords confereed to the bishops of rome, and is borne by the pope today, who is thus declared to be, not the successor to Peter, but the direct successor to the high preist of the babylonian mysteries. For whome he wears, like his idolotrous predecessors the fishermans ring.
During the early centuries of the churches history. the mystery of iniquity had wroght such astounding affect , and babylonian practices and teachings had been so larglyu absorbed by that which bore the name of christ, that the truth of holy scriptures on many points had been wholly absorbed, while idolotrous practices were forced on christian people in the form of christian sacriments and heathen philosophies took the place of gospel instruction. Thus was developed an amazing system which for 1000 years dominated europe and trafficed in the bodies and souls of men, until the great reformation of the 16 century brought a measure of deliverance.

JesusisGod
Aug 14th 2008, 08:26 PM
Why? We are talking about new Jerusalem not current day earthly Jerusalem. Like new Jerusalem, Babylon will include the church as well as Israel. When Babylon rises out of the ashes there will be no other governments......do you not see this?

Mark
Mark,
I don't understand your question. Prophjetic Babylon is destroyed by 10 kings (or kingdoms). Therefore, other governments must exist.

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:30 PM
Not quite.

I meant as a city.



You do realize that the book of Revelation is a New Testament book, right?

Who are God's people today? Only Jews? No. God's people are found throughout the world. All Christians are God's people. God is telling His people throughout the world to come out of Babylon. Babylon cannot be confined only to Jerusalem. It is found throughout the world. It is not an earthly city. It is the direct counterpart to the heavenly city, New Jerusalem, which is the bride/wife of the Lamb. Babylon is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit" (Rev 18:2). Do devils and foul spirits only dwell in earthly Jerusalem?

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

If Babylon was modern-day Jerusalem, do you actually think that "the kings of the earth" would lament over her destruction?

Your missing the point.

The Baylon of rev 17 18 pictures a time when this kingdom is physically upon the earth a time prior to Christ return. This kingdom does exsist today but it is not physically seen it is a kingdom of principlalities and wickedness in HIGH places but not yet earth.

When this city is upon the earth it will not be earthly Jerusalem of today but a city which will rival new Jerusalem and yes will be a gage of every foul spirit. It is the kingdom of Hell, Hell will be upon earth.

Mark

Joyfulparousia
Aug 14th 2008, 08:30 PM
Hi Joyfulparousia.
You're right. I think it can be shown that people throughout the centuries who care about what the Bible says will happen have tried to figure out who the whore is. On my part, the USA is only a guess and I could be entirely wrong, but I see opinions of Jerusalem or the Catholic Church offered which make little to no sense when examined against the text of the Bible.

In my opinion, applying the text (which is what many are doing, not examining) to countries make as little sense as applying it to the Catholic church or Jerusalem. If we want to look at the texts, let's not leave out Is 21 and Jer. 50 & 51. Much of Jeremiah's prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. For instance, ancient Babylon was not destroyed by an invading northern army (Jer 50:9). It was overthrown by the western neighboring Persia (modern day Iran). The northern armies Jeremiah talks about fits perfectly with the Antichrists confederation of nations (the 10 horns) that are referred to as the northern armies (see Ez 38:15).


Would the business community weep over the destruction of the Catholic Church or Jerusalem? Maybe a little, but "life" would go on. The Bible seems to be describing an entity whose destruction would be catistrophic to world trade. I'm not all that smart when it comes to the ways of the world, but I think New York City's (Wall St.'s) destruction would cripple (or kill) world trade in our age.

No, but they didn't weep over the twin towers; in fact, many nations were rejoicing.:)

They didn't weep when wall street crashed resulting in the depression of the 1930's, we did.

What nation really loves America besides Israel?


The "city" described as the whore has been depicted on this forum as a religion, or an actual city, but what if it's a country? The Bibles prophecy says the people say, "What city is like this great city?" (Re.18:18). I think in any age, we should look at the greatest city (or country?) that has ever existed.

If we only look at the current political powers, we forget that that America has only been a "superpower" since the end of WWII. That's only about 60 years. What about the Soviet Union or Germany? Have we forgotten so quickly how powerful these nations were? No one thought that communism would be overthrown. In the days of the Soviet Union folks were probably saying that Communism was Babylon, and heck, the Communists probably say Democracy is (though they use less prophetic language).:lol:

America is strong, but she has weaknesses.:hmm:

ross3421
Aug 14th 2008, 08:33 PM
Mark,
I don't understand your question. Prophjetic Babylon is destroyed by 10 kings (or kingdoms). Therefore, other governments must exist.

The 10 are part of the Babylon system, right? Just as are the 7 heads, 4 beasts ect...

So what we have is ONE government with several parts. Part of the government breaks away and goes to destoy the government. We see this happen all the time.

Mark

White Spider
Aug 14th 2008, 10:17 PM
Some of you are saying it can't be the Catholic Church because it does not reign over the Kings.

Nobody reigns over all the Kings right now.

I just noticed something and would love to say it, but it gets into names and timelines which is not allowed.

If you are curious I think I'm allowed to give names and timelines in PM so send me a message and I'd be more than happy to tell you all what I just thought of.

JesusisGod
Aug 15th 2008, 12:51 PM
Hi Bryan.
You brought up a lot of good points but I think that over time, religion is becoming less ans less important to the political world. I've been told that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. Arab countries are governed by their religion. Maybe the whore is the false religion of Islam.

JesusisGod
Aug 15th 2008, 01:01 PM
Hi Joyful.

In my opinion, applying the text (which is what many are doing, not examining) to countries make as little sense as applying it to the Catholic church or Jerusalem. If we want to look at the texts, let's not leave out Is 21 and Jer. 50 & 51. Much of Jeremiah's prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. For instance, ancient Babylon was not destroyed by an invading northern army (Jer 50:9). It was overthrown by the western neighboring Persia (modern day Iran). The northern armies Jeremiah talks about fits perfectly with the Antichrists confederation of nations (the 10 horns) that are referred to as the northern armies (see Ez 38:15).

I will have to check out the scriptures you cited in detail.


No, but they didn't weep over the twin towers; in fact, many nations were rejoicing.:)
I think the 10 kings who destroy the whore will rejoice too. I think it's the business community that weeps.


What nation really loves America besides Israel?
I don't know of any. I think alot of world leaders would be happy if the USA was destroyed.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:03 PM
I've been told that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. Arab countries are governed by their religion. Maybe the whore is the false religion of Islam.

Remember that the religion of Mystery Babylon is in effect before the Abomination of Desolation. This is during the time of "peace and safety" of 1 Thess. 5:3. This is while the false covenant of peace has been negotiated with Israel and middle east nations to stop fighting (Dan 9:27). It's a time of religious tolerance. IMO, the closest modern form to this are the eastern religions (Buddhism, Taoism, eastern mysticism etc.).

True Islam is anything but tolerant. Their primary mandate is to subdue and defeat either by conversion or jihad.

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:06 PM
Hi Bryan.
You brought up a lot of good points but I think that over time, religion is becoming less ans less important to the political world. I've been told that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. Arab countries are governed by their religion. Maybe the whore is the false religion of Islam.

How can God's people come out of it if it is Islam, none of God's people are Muslims.

It still screams Catholicism and Rome, Catholics are God's people as are all denominations of Christianity, they believe in the God of Israel, the one true God. Muslims don't.

Islam has never had power over Kings outside it's region.

And I don't think it will really be super religious, there will be tolerance, part of the deception and falsity of the Catholic Church.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:07 PM
I don't know of any. I think alot of world leaders would be happy if the USA was destroyed.

Just wanted to let you know that this statement contradicts your earlier comment about the US being Babylon and the subsequent mourning at her destruction. ;)

Check out those passages, look at what has been fulfilled and what's left to be fulfilled. There's quite a bit. :)

JesusisGod
Aug 15th 2008, 01:07 PM
Hi Mark.

The 10 are part of the Babylon system, right? Just as are the 7 heads, 4 beasts ect...
I can't tell. It seems like the whore is a separate entity from the beast and his horns.


So what we have is ONE government with several parts. Part of the government breaks away and goes to destoy the government. We see this happen all the time.
Can't argue with that. I just get the feeling when reading that the beast and the horns are together and then there's this whore hanging around who nobody really likes.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:08 PM
How can God's people come out of it if it is Islam, none of God's people are Muslims.

It still screams Catholicism and Rome, Catholics are God's people as are all denominations of Christianity, they believe in the God of Israel, the one true God. Muslims don't.

Islam has never had power over Kings outside it's region.

Actually Islam does believe in the "God of Abraham". So why wouldn't they be considered part of God's people if the Romans and Catholics are.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:10 PM
Hi Mark.

I can't tell. It seems like the whore is a separate entity from the beast and his horns.


Can't argue with that. I just get the feeling when reading that the beast and the horns are together and then there's this whore hanging around who nobody really likes.

She is a tool used to set the stage of deception for the Antichrist's false system of worship.

that way religions go from their beliefs - to a religion of tolerance and seduction - and then to the Antichrist's merciless worship religion.

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:11 PM
Actually Islam does believe in the "God of Abraham". So why wouldn't they be considered part of God's people if the Romans and Catholics are.

They don't believe Christ is the Son of God, Catholics do, that's the separation!

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:13 PM
They don't believe Christ is the Son of God, Catholics do, that's the separation!

What is your biblical foundation for believing that Babylon = Rome

To me, it's plain that Babylon = Babylon


When has the Lord ever used Babylon to be the same as Rome in scripture? The Lord in Daniel 7 clearly makes the distinction of the 4 beasts

Lion = Babylon

Iron beast = Rome


If I were reading a newspaper and it said Great Britain, I wouldn't think that is said Russia.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:15 PM
It's not Romes seven hills either in Rev. 17:9. :D

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:21 PM
What is your biblical foundation for believing that Babylon = Rome

To me, it's plain that Babylon = Babylon


When has the Lord ever used Babylon to be the same as Rome in scripture? The Lord in Daniel 7 clearly makes the distinction of the 4 beasts

Lion = Babylon

Iron beast = Rome


If I were reading a newspaper and it said Great Britain, I wouldn't think that is said Russia.

:lol: That last part made me laugh. (And now I'll probably think of Russia every time I see Great Britain.)


Why is it Rome?

Revelation 17:9 ~ This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

The City of Seven Hills is Rome . . . anything else need be said.

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:22 PM
Oh I didn't see your second post until after.


If you don't believe it's Rome, what do you think it is?

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:24 PM
Jerusalem has seven hills, but then Babylon doesn't mean Jerusalem does it.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 15th 2008, 01:29 PM
:lol: That last part made me laugh. (And now I'll probably think of Russia every time I see Great Britain.)


Why is it Rome?

Revelation 17:9 ~ This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

The City of Seven Hills is Rome . . . anything else need be said.

You missed verses 9 and 10

Rev 17:9, 10 - Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

Mountains in scripture depict kingdoms like in Daniel 2

and the stone (the Kingdom of Heaven) that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:35


Mountains are not hills. Rome is sitting on 7 hills, not 7 mountains. Secondly, scripture does not describe Rome in this way. Man describes Rome on 7 hills.

Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time

7 Kings/mountains (Kingdoms)

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Peria
5. Greece

All these have fallen when John is writing this

6. Rome - "one is"

7. Germany? I think so at least...;)

8. The Antichrist empire

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:32 PM
Mountains in scripture depict kingdoms like in Daniel 2

7 Kings/mountains (Kingdoms)

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Peria
5. Greece

All these have fallen when John is writing this

6. Rome - "one is"

7. Germany? I think so at least...;)

8. The Antichrist empire

The woman sits on the seven mountains though, who or what whore was around for all of those Kingdoms?

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 01:37 PM
You missed verses 9 and 10

Rev 17:9, 10 - Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

See how it says the woman sits on the seven hills/mountains.

Then it says there are also seven kings.

After changing the topic to the kings it says, five have fallen, one is, one is yet to come.

The Kings, not the kingdoms as you say. He makes it clear he is talking of kings and not the kingdoms. (If in fact they are kingdoms and not the seven hills Rome sits on.)

JesusisGod
Aug 15th 2008, 07:33 PM
Hi White Spider.

How can God's people come out of it if it is Islam, none of God's people are Muslims.

Well, there goes that idea! Maybe the whore is a city where Islam is the main religion.

JesusisGod
Aug 15th 2008, 07:40 PM
Hi Joyful.

Just wanted to let you know that this statement contradicts your earlier comment about the US being Babylon and the subsequent mourning at her destruction. ;)
Not really, because the Bible says it's the businessmen who were made wealthy by whores costiliness who weep, not necessarily the world rulers. :hug:

Bryan43
Aug 15th 2008, 08:58 PM
Hi White Spider.

Well, there goes that idea! Maybe the whore is a city where Islam is the main religion.

Islam would not be considered a false bride ( harlot ) thus would not be mentioned here. islam rejects christ as a savior, they say he is just a prophet. The harlot must claim to be the bride. thus it can not reject Christ as a whole. just thaought she was the true bride. but her arrogance refused to allow her to see she was going the wrong way.

White Spider
Aug 15th 2008, 09:57 PM
Islam would not be considered a false bride ( harlot ) thus would not be mentioned here. islam rejects christ as a savior, they say he is just a prophet. The harlot must claim to be the bride. thus it can not reject Christ as a whole. just thaought she was the true bride. but her arrogance refused to allow her to see she was going the wrong way.

Just want to say I agree.

The Catholic Church maintains that it is the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" founded by Jesus.

It believes it is the true bride.

JesusisGod
Aug 16th 2008, 01:06 AM
Islam would not be considered a false bride ( harlot ) thus would not be mentioned here.
Why does the whore have to be considered a bride at all? Isn't a whore someone who just sleeps around?

JesusisGod
Aug 16th 2008, 01:08 AM
Joyful,
I read Is.21 and Je.50 & 51. It seems from these that Babylon is Iran.

Bryan43
Aug 16th 2008, 02:54 AM
Why does the whore have to be considered a bride at all? Isn't a whore someone who just sleeps around?

your looking at it from a human perspective and not Gods perspective.

the marraige bed to God is holy. a harlot who enters that bed is attempting to take the place of the wife in that bed.

She defiles the marraige, and becomes a false wife. or harlot

God said in the OT the isreal played with the harlot. by mixing this bablylonian inspired religion with Gods word. and because of this. isreal fornicated with other gods.

the harlot then must be a religion which has been broken from its origional context. and contaminated with babalonian practices.

she tries to take the place of the bride.

the jews did not stop believing in their God. they just added peganism to the mix.

just like the church does not believe in a false god. they just mixed it with babylonian ideas.

thus instead of being the true bride. she is the false bride attempting to sleep in the brides bed. or a harlot.