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wondercoolguy
Aug 13th 2008, 12:16 AM
First off I'm brand new to this forum this could have been a post before if so, sorry. I'm 27 and I've been a Christian for 10 years and I feel called to be an evangelist. I'm about to start school this fall. Currently I go to a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. www.tbtchurch.org

About six months ago I was introduced to a band called Saviour Machine. Which opened up the door to www.christiangoth.com. There is about six of us feel called into the ministry and each one of them have their different views on this. I wanted to fire this out there to see what this community thinks.

ServantofTruth
Aug 13th 2008, 12:41 AM
We sometimes talk about externals - clothes, hair cuts, tattoos etc. We have believers on these forums from many backgrounds and going into many areas to tell the good news /gospel. This is good.

But it is a fine line between reacing out; and crossing that line and 'being' part of something that is unbiblical.

In a few minutes of looking and reading it is hard to tell where this lies. I will say it makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps this is a near 40 year old from an Anglican background who hasn't seen much of life or the world?

From what i have seen of Goths on tv, the image is gloomy and depressing. That is when they are asked to take part in programs and show what they are all about - not an outsiders view.

Why would a saved believer be gloomy? Why set out to be different? You know this will alienate many people, christian or not.

I said awhile back on these forums, why would a christian want to identify themselves as anything except Christian? You can't add, or take away from that faith.

This is not like being a motorbike rider or a scientist. I doubt if those people would say i'm a Christian Scientist or a Christian Motorcyclist.

For now i'll, personally, have to give the idea a thumbs down - though i'm willing to listen and learn and perhaps change my mind. I believe these same seekers/ non christians can be reached without going this far into their way of life.

Also as i've said a Christian is only that by definition. The title needs nothing adding. The Goth image that i have come across certainly has nothing to do with my faith. The young adults concerned were not bible believing followers of Jesus Christ. I feel it could be dangerous to assume this style of dress etc, that satan would find attacking a New believer much easier.

Just my thoughts.....



BIG SofTy SofT outside, bible core. :pp

wondercoolguy
Aug 13th 2008, 01:06 AM
Let me use Brian "Head" Welch as an example.

When you look at his exterior you can't help but say if I saw that guy walking down the street I might turn the other way. Who do you think Brian has a chance at reaching? The Preppies, band nerds, or straight laced kids? Should Brian shave his head and beard and put on a suit to cover his tattoos? The answer is no.

I truly believe that God is/will use his exterior as a way to reach young people. Gothic is just one style that God can get the glory out of.

livingwaters
Aug 13th 2008, 01:34 AM
Sorry, but I tend to agree with Big Softy on this one. No offense intended! God Bless!!:hug:

ilovemetal
Aug 13th 2008, 02:11 AM
this is a toughy.

first off brian has a chace to reach any old korn fan. when i heard he turned christian i was stolked. i wish we could hang out. he's a rad dude.

second goth is kinda in a different section of it's own. the reason i say this is because, to me at least, (and yes i'v ebeen to lots of black/goth metal shows)
to be goth takes alot of unneeded effort. now i don't mean offence with this, but i'm just againt putting too much effor tinto trying to be different. and i hope your not denying that goths are different. the corpse paint, tall leather booths, random jackets, hair, and sorrowful music. it gives off the impression that goths are depressed/angry/confused. at least to me.

those should be things we grow oout of when we become older, and find out who we are. i went through all that punk stuff, colored mohawks, big pants, dragging suspenders.

so i guess, i don't see anything perticualrly 'wrong' about chrisitan goths, but like has been stated, it seems a little unnessisary. who really needs to feel that much different? no need to add to simply christian. i don't know, just my honest thoughts. again, no offence meant in this post.

i'd also like to add, that if you feel this could be a calling then i'd go with it. who else will reach out to them? not coal chamber, the cure or cradle of filth.

word up.

Athanasius
Aug 13th 2008, 02:13 AM
Maybe I wouldn't have such a problem if they weren't (1) thriving on rejection and (2) modifying 'Christian' with the word 'Gothic' (i.e. 'Gothic Bride of Christ). Sure, Brian Welch is reaching people, but I very highly doubt he's reveling in what this site seems to be reveling in.

That is... Rejection.

Firefighter
Aug 13th 2008, 02:29 AM
I have no problem with it. Goth seems no more silly than a necktie, pin point oxford dress shirt, full length pants and wingtips did a couple of hundred years ago...

It will allow someone to reach somebody that we never could. I have reached drug addicts because I used to be a drug addicts. I have reached tattooed people because of my tattoos. I have reached the homeless because I have been homeless.

Even though like Paul I am the cheifest of sinners, God has used the things in my past to reach hundreds. Granted, I have made the decisions in my past, but many of them are still with me.

Mograce2U
Aug 13th 2008, 03:13 AM
Christianity is about coming in touch with reality. It is not about hiding and pretending and rebelling which is all a focus upon one's self and easily discerned as hypocritical. An internal change of heart will have an external change in behavior, else you are kidding yourself. The gospel is about Christ, it is not about you or me. Yet this is what is being preached regardless of how many scriptures they post on that site.

The Christian walk is a walk in sanctification not outward rebellion and being cool. To preach that it is, is to preach another gospel. If cool is your focus and it is still about you, then I would question whether one has truly been converted or not. And that is not because of what they may look like per se, since if they put on pious robes instead of a skull and crossbones, it would be the same problem. We are following the example of Jesus and He cared not one whit about clothes and makeup and such.

So why is this the focus of these Goths? If we are not to be a respecter of persons, it is because we see them as being the same and not different. Yet different is what these kids want to focus on and then cry "bigotry" when they are viewed as suspicious. Trust must be earned and a said faith that promotes rebellion is equal to idolatry.

And that is the message these kids give loud and clear. Because they are actors playing a part and the message they give is one of confusion which they do purposefully. Can Christ save a Goth? Of course, but he will no longer be a Goth from then on because he will belong to Christ and the focus of his life will be to please Him and not himself.

scourge39
Aug 13th 2008, 03:57 AM
I have a unique perspective on this than the rest of you. I moderate a Christian goth/industrial/electronica site. We produce Christian music within those respective genres. There's nothing unbiblical about looking the part, as long as doing so doesn't violate Biblical standards. I remember when the aforementioned band Saviour Machine started getting more exposure within mainstream Christian music. I was very pleased. Then, another band of Marilyn Manson wannabes named Rackets & Drapes came along. Due to their transgender look, which I always opposed, the mainstream CCM industry quickly washed its hands of the genre. There is nothing inherently wrong with 'being goth,' as long as one can set it aside in order to work an ordinary job and fellowship with other Christians who don't share the same preferences for black or musical tastes. This is the mark of Spiritual maturity for Christians who enjoy the gothic scene, and most do so admirably. Their identities are 'in Christ' rather than in being goth. As a moderator, I have contact with many artists within the scene, and am very impressed with their humility and Spirituality. There are occassional excesses, but as someone who is a trained theologian, I can say with confidence that they are few and far between and that those artists I deal with are most definitely fellow Christians. I personally have never 'looked the part' by choice. You would never be able to pick me out of a 'guess the goth' lineup. I simply love the genre and there are several fine Christian artists who truly glorify God with it. The South African band, The Awakening and their vocalist, Ashton Nyte (who has done solo material), along with the American band, Bridgeshadows, are prime examples. Some kids have the goth look and know next to nothing about the musical genre. Some who 'look the part' may not even be into the music or the goth scene. Calling everyone 'goth' who wears black lipstick and whiteface makeup is an overgeneralization. It's still a subculture in dire need of more ministry.

Elouise
Aug 13th 2008, 06:42 AM
It is because of the music of Saviour Machine I am a Christian.

BTW Goth is a subculture within a culture and it transcends ages it is not purely yoof culture.

If you label any group of people as 'other' to yourself your going to have a very hard time getting to know them let alone sharing faith with them.

One word of warning if you do meet Christian goths they tend to be very well read not merely of the bible but of biblical scholars and are perfectly capable of presenting a reasoned defence for their faith; it is they who are best able to witness in their own subculture because they do not get hung up on external appearances.

It tends to be those who are youngsters who opt for the cross between Po the Panda and cracked slap clown look. :lol:

wondercoolguy
Aug 13th 2008, 05:32 PM
It is because of the music of Saviour Machine I am a Christian.


Amen

I'm so Sad because when Saviour Machine was around, I had no concept of Christian Rock. I had always heard Audio Adrine, DC Talk, and Newboys. I'm sure their lyrics were good but I never liked their music one bit. If I would have been introduced to Saviour Machine it would have rocked my world. IMO There no better than Legend/Lamb song.

I would love to find actual Gothic Christian Church in Texas and attend, just to see what its like. The reason why I accept the "Goth" section of Christainty is because the Spiritual War Lines are so skewed in America we need Representatives on all War fronts. People who are Goth would IMO be more open mentally to listen to a Gothic Christian rather than me.

Mograce2U
Aug 13th 2008, 06:12 PM
Amen

I'm so Sad because when Saviour Machine was around, I had no concept of Christian Rock. I had always heard Audio Adrine, DC Talk, and Newboys. I'm sure their lyrics were good but I never liked their music one bit. If I would have been introduced to Saviour Machine it would have rocked my world. IMO There no better than Legend/Lamb song.

I would love to find actual Gothic Christian Church in Texas and attend, just to see what its like. The reason why I accept the "Goth" section of Christainty is because the Spiritual War Lines are so skewed in America we need Representatives on all War fronts. People who are Goth would IMO be more open mentally to listen to a Gothic Christian rather than me.

Using that line of reason then a church that is based on greed and avarice is the perfect church to witness to men who are of like mind. And is this not the Word Faith churches we have today? The worldly emergent church also fits this model. Problem is MEN are not our model. We cannot take the things of the world and sanctify them for the Lord's use using His blood to do this. This is what Israel attempted to do which was idolatrous as they brought the heathen idols into the temple and built altars there "to serve the Lord". We must forsake our idols when we come to the Lord, not bring them to Him for His blessing asking Him to make them clean for His use because we enjoyed them so much when we served them in the world.

militarywife
Aug 13th 2008, 06:27 PM
;) I totally agree.

Let me use Brian "Head" Welch as an example.

When you look at his exterior you can't help but say if I saw that guy walking down the street I might turn the other way. Who do you think Brian has a chance at reaching? The Preppies, band nerds, or straight laced kids? Should Brian shave his head and beard and put on a suit to cover his tattoos? The answer is no.

I truly believe that God is/will use his exterior as a way to reach young people. Gothic is just one style that God can get the glory out of.

SethElijah
Aug 13th 2008, 06:27 PM
I consider myself goth, I used to dress the part whole heartedly in high school with the white makeup and black clothes. My parents were none too pleased, but I did not get into a lot of trouble and had good grades, just my preference. I have a dark personality, always have. My favorite place to realx was always cemeteries, very quiet and peaceful. I still dress in black most of the time, although I have incorporated some color (my husband almost fainted the first time I had all pink on and no black). Yes, even in the heat of summer I wear my all black to work. I work in a call center for a brokerage firm, go to church, have a house and two kids, fairly normal, just dark. To me it takes more effort for me to wear color than it does my norm of black, all my clothes match, al my shoes match, and my makeup goes on easy. I am still a Christian, and I am not shunned at my mainstream church. I don't wear veils and lace and stark white makeup anymore though, but there is nothing wrong with it IMO.

Buck shot
Aug 13th 2008, 06:59 PM
I try to keep an open mind to things so for me to honestly have an opinion on Christian Gothic I would like to know what Gothic really is.

Can any of you explain what being "Gothic" is?

What makes one "Goth"...

Is it just an outward appearance? Is there a lifestyle that you try to attain? An attitude one must work toward?

Buck shot
Aug 13th 2008, 07:08 PM
I have a dark personality, always have. My favorite place to realx was always cemeteries, very quiet and peaceful.

I work in a call center for a brokerage firm, go to church, have a house and two kids, fairly normal, just dark.

but there is nothing wrong with it IMO.

This concerns me to be honest with ya'll... Jesus has no darkness at all. We are to be striving to be more like Christ. If you feel dark, when you should feel light, would you not agree there is a problem here?


1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

tango
Aug 13th 2008, 07:24 PM
First off I'm brand new to this forum this could have been a post before if so, sorry. I'm 27 and I've been a Christian for 10 years and I feel called to be an evangelist. I'm about to start school this fall. Currently I go to a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. www.tbtchurch.org (http://www.tbtchurch.org)

About six months ago I was introduced to a band called Saviour Machine. Which opened up the door to www.christiangoth.com (http://www.christiangoth.com). There is about six of us feel called into the ministry and each one of them have their different views on this. I wanted to fire this out there to see what this community thinks.

I suppose it depends on how far into the goth scene you go. If you want to reach out to gothic types they aren't going to listen to you if you turn up wearing a 3-piece pinstripe suit and wielding a copy of the Wall St Journal.

But as others have said, you have to be a Christian first and a goth second. Remember the first command is to love God and the second is to love your neighbour (Mark 12:29-31).


Looking at the fruit of the flesh and the fruit of the Holy Spirit:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

If you can be gothic and still show the fruit of the Spirit I reckon you'll be just fine. If the fruit of the flesh starts to creep back in then you'll have problems.

SethElijah
Aug 13th 2008, 08:03 PM
If you feel dark, when you should feel light, would you not agree there is a problem here?



Allow me to rephrase-----I have a "dark" personality...I do not find it to be strange or dark just different, however others find it to be dark. It is all in the heart. Just because I am "dark" doesn't mean a light doesn't shine within. Again, my opinion, just me.

Buck shot
Aug 13th 2008, 08:23 PM
Allow me to rephrase-----I have a "dark" personality...I do not find it to be strange or dark just different, however others find it to be dark. It is all in the heart. Just because I am "dark" doesn't mean a light doesn't shine within. Again, my opinion, just me.

I am not judging, just trying to understand...

The light that shines within should overshadow the darkness, right?

Sold Out
Aug 13th 2008, 08:39 PM
First off I'm brand new to this forum this could have been a post before if so, sorry. I'm 27 and I've been a Christian for 10 years and I feel called to be an evangelist. I'm about to start school this fall. Currently I go to a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. www.tbtchurch.org (http://www.tbtchurch.org)

About six months ago I was introduced to a band called Saviour Machine. Which opened up the door to www.christiangoth.com (http://www.christiangoth.com). There is about six of us feel called into the ministry and each one of them have their different views on this. I wanted to fire this out there to see what this community thinks.

I'm a little on the fence. It's great that there are folks out there trying to reach out to the goth's, but at some point the ideology of their 'culture' must be addressed. I didn't read every word on the website, so there may be something there about pulling away from that way of thinking.

Paul said he would be all things to all people so that he might save some...and it's true that the goth's probably would not listen to someone that did not identify with them in some way.

Mograce2U
Aug 13th 2008, 08:43 PM
Paul gave 2 examples of what it means to become all things to all men that we might save some. And in neither of them did he succumb to the culture, he merely utilized what they already believed.

When accused falsely of teaching men to forsake Moses, he joined 4 men who were under a vow and went thru the cleansing rituals even shaving his head to appear in the temple for 7 days. Paul was not under this vow, but he went along with it so these false accusers would have nothing to pin on him. And his subsequent trials reveal this.

When he went to speak to the Athenians on Mars Hill who loved philosophy, he used that approach to speak to those men about their idolatry and declare the gospel to them. He made no pretense of being a pagan idolator like them in order to do this.

In the first case Paul WAS a Jew and a Pharisee so this was not deceitful on his part as all. The Goth thing is more like if he had pretended to be one of the pagan philosophers - which he did not do. If you have been a Goth then you have a platform from which to speak, but that platform is what makes you different now and not the same.

Your difference is what they ought to notice, not your tats and makeup, etc., which make them think you are STILL like them. That is deceitful, and I doubt any would be fooled by the ruse. The world expects something different from the religious when they speak about their hope. That you used to be a Goth but now are not, might give more weight to your reason for the hope that you have and the change that came upon you. But to add pretense so as to sneak in among them is hardly courageous nor admirable.

When Paul wrote to the Colossians he spoke about the judgment the world had made on the saints, and his instruction was to stop this sorry witness and learn to do right so they would have nothing with which to accuse the saints of.

SethElijah
Aug 13th 2008, 10:28 PM
So, because I am a Christian I should stop wearing black and going to cemeteries, taking pictures of the statues of angels that have been worn by weather? I do not run with a goth crowd, I just have different likes than most people around me and dress different than others around me. If others want to judge then so be it, I know they will and it doesn't other me. It is hard to know a person through a message board, so really I dont know any of you and you dont know me. It takes a long time for me to open up to anyone. Most people think I am a snab, nope, just very shy. Most people I know never really noticed how different I am until they knew me for a while. If it isn't for you that is fine. Are all goths good people, I highly doubt it. I do not pretend to be something I am not. Just because someone is perceived as "dark" though does not make them bad. Have fun with the conversation though, I am off to clean my house and watch the Olympics:D Oh, and try to play the Wii Fit, it is my sons birthday today and he and mommy have a Wii fit date.

wondercoolguy
Aug 13th 2008, 11:19 PM
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is twisting the verse to try and prove a point. Light and Dark in that verse means good and bad not the way you dress. :hmm:

XianGothDude
Aug 14th 2008, 02:26 AM
Well honestly goths do not thrive off of rejection or a movement to make a statement (some of hte younger teenage goths don't understand this, they see the subculture as no different from punk: rebellion against the status quo, back off attitude, seeking to alienate those away from them sometimes etc. I know thats an over simplification of punk but still). Goths really are very accepting people at heart, goths are also very open to talk of religion and beliefs (some of the more younger ones are just stubborn and will try to tear down any Christian SOLELY because they are practicing Wicca or some other form of Paganism). Overall I think alot of people on this board have a very jaded and at times misconceptions of goths at all, some of are talking solely of younger teenage goths when I interact with goths of all ages; the more older ones are alot more mature to talk of religion and Christianity etc. the younger ones take alittle more time due to their own jadedness toward Chrisitanity as a whole.

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 02:47 AM
Well honestly goths do not thrive off of rejection or a movement to make a statement (some of hte younger teenage goths don't understand this, they see the subculture as no different from punk: rebellion against the status quo, back off attitude, seeking to alienate those away from them sometimes etc. I know thats an over simplification of punk but still). Goths really are very accepting people at heart, goths are also very open to talk of religion and beliefs (some of the more younger ones are just stubborn and will try to tear down any Christian SOLELY because they are practicing Wicca or some other form of Paganism). Overall I think alot of people on this board have a very jaded and at times misconceptions of goths at all, some of are talking solely of younger teenage goths when I interact with goths of all ages; the more older ones are alot more mature to talk of religion and Christianity etc. the younger ones take alittle more time due to their own jadedness toward Chrisitanity as a whole.

Outstanding post! 100% accurate!

wondercoolguy
Aug 14th 2008, 02:51 PM
Overall I think alot of people on this board have a very jaded and at times misconceptions of goths at all

People in general. General thoughts on Goths are ppl who dress black, wear make up, do drugs, and cut them selves. This thought pattern is fed by Hollywood like most things everything is always sterotyped.:B

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 03:13 PM
That is twisting the verse to try and prove a point. Light and Dark in that verse means good and bad not the way you dress. :hmm:
You misunderstood me. I do not care how someone dresses. I was talking about the post of "feeling dark". If you feel dark, is this good or bad, wondercoolguy?

This is what I am trying to understand. Is "Gothic" just a dress code or does it have something else attached?

What I see in folks around here who dress Gothic is they seem to have no purpose in live...

Athanasius
Aug 14th 2008, 03:33 PM
I still don't see why Christianity needs to be modified with the word 'Goth'?

XianGothDude
Aug 14th 2008, 03:58 PM
Okay; goh is a genere of music that sprang up out of the dying punk movement in the late 70's, bands like the Cure, Bauhaus, Sioux Sioux and the Banshees, Joy Division all (while none really 'accepted' themselves or the band to be of a gothic sound, although the manager of Sioux Sioux I believe when asked what kind of sound they were going for he said "Gothic" and the name and everything stuck). But what does "goth" mean many people point to the dictionary (great idea! serious) and list out the many definitions of gothic; and then they merely pick one and say thats what it means, and I have to point out they ALL have meaning, use and relevence to goths of today. History lesson lol Goths were originally a barbarian tribe of Germans in the middle ages who sacked Rome and later on converted devoutly to Christianity and were responsible for translating the Bible into a common tongue (both tribes Ostrogths and Visigoths converted to Christianity).

Next onto Gothic architure, itwas called so only because people at the architure to be "crude" and "unrefined" and the goths were barbarians so it a given. Now why Gothic Literature is named so? Gothic Literature is sometimes called "Gothic Horror" novels dealing with horror and romance and also a bit of parody you can read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Literature) From this name is where goths derive the subculture's tastes, trappings, and interests (while recognizing the other 2 definitions of gothic and goth as well). The Gothic Subculture is not a "Dresscode" to be "blunt" yes gothic has a history spanning from the middle ages till now, all with relevancy to goths today. Also you're either thinking of the younger goths with now will to live (playing it up for shock value) or emo teens and their music; (read the lyrics to a Cruxshadows song then read the lyrics to a Dashboard Confessional song, there's a glaring difference between the two genres even though some would assert: emo is the "new" goth) *shrugs*

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 04:21 PM
Okay; goh is a genere of music that sprang up out of the dying punk movement in the late 70's, bands like the Cure, Bauhaus, Sioux Sioux and the Banshees, Joy Division all (while none really 'accepted' themselves or the band to be of a gothic sound, although the manager of Sioux Sioux I believe when asked what kind of sound they were going for he said "Gothic" and the name and everything stuck). But what does "goth" mean many people point to the dictionary (great idea! serious) and list out the many definitions of gothic; and then they merely pick one and say thats what it means, and I have to point out they ALL have meaning, use and relevence to goths of today. History lesson lol Goths were originally a barbarian tribe of Germans in the middle ages who sacked Rome and later on converted devoutly to Christianity and were responsible for translating the Bible into a common tongue (both tribes Ostrogths and Visigoths converted to Christianity).

Next onto Gothic architure, itwas called so only because people at the architure to be "crude" and "unrefined" and the goths were barbarians so it a given. Now why Gothic Literature is named so? Gothic Literature is sometimes called "Gothic Horror" novels dealing with horror and romance and also a bit of parody you can read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Literature) From this name is where goths derive the subculture's tastes, trappings, and interests (while recognizing the other 2 definitions of gothic and goth as well). The Gothic Subculture is not a "Dresscode" to be "blunt" yes gothic has a history spanning from the middle ages till now, all with relevancy to goths today. Also you're either thinking of the younger goths with now will to live (playing it up for shock value) or emo teens and their music; (read the lyrics to a Cruxshadows song then read the lyrics to a Dashboard Confessional song, there's a glaring difference between the two genres even though some would assert: emo is the "new" goth) *shrugs*
Okay, so what makes you goth? I really want to understand this...

XianGothDude
Aug 14th 2008, 04:31 PM
Its the appreciation we as a subculture hold and share for poetry, art, writting, some times it may be dark, macabre and morbid but its not what we "obsess" over. We do find beauty in it though.

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 05:21 PM
maybe it's like me liking ballots, old country music, bluegrass, and southern gospel, riding our horses and wearing my boots all the time.

but I don't call myself a cowboy christian?

Those are just things I like, not who I am...

Mograce2U
Aug 14th 2008, 06:03 PM
maybe it's like me liking ballots, old country music, bluegrass, and southern gospel, riding our horses and wearing my boots all the time.

but I don't call myself a cowboy christian?

Those are just things I like, not who I am...Un huh,ok. But if death is your focus and what the things you like are about, how will that be a proper witness that LIFE is your hope? There are cowboys afterall who actually have that job, and so a Christian cowboy is not an oxymoron. In other words, it would not deny the testimony you hold as a Christian. At least not like wearing a skull and crossbones and painting your face to look like a skeleton does.

Are there also Christian vampires and such? Christian witches? ... :hmm:

Elena
Aug 14th 2008, 06:34 PM
I find that being goth doesn't override being a Christian, and it is just a combination of the music I like, the perhaps "darker" interests I enjoy, and the fashion sense which I like. I don't dress goth to prove a point or rebel, I do it because it is what I like and I think it is beautiful. Not everyone thinks that pink is the best colour, or that everyone wants to listen to Britney Spears. It' s just people's preferences that lead them to identify with a specific subculture.

Also, it's not bad because it gives a chance to talk to people that are perhaps more ignored or shunned by regular Christian circles. By being able to relate to these people you can give a much more accurate view of what Jesus was like. Jesus didn't hang out with the Pharisees, he hung out with the prostitutes. I have a very secure knowledge of God's word, and I don't participate in anything that is questionable (drugs, any occult things, fetish parties, etc.) and by doing that we can truly be a light in the darkness. We can offer a chance to show God's love to people who may otherwise run from a church, and be able to talk to them where they would ignore a "regular" Christian who was trying to convert them from their supposedly "godless" ways.

As Christians, shouldn't we always have death on our minds? We need to constantly remember that this life isn't the main reason we are here, and need to be willing to die for our beliefs if it is necessary. There is nothing more beautiful than a suffering man on a cross dying because he loves the people who condemned him. Sounds pretty dark and morbid, right? ;)

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 07:17 PM
Jesus didn't hang out with the Pharisees, he hung out with the prostitutes.

As Christians, shouldn't we always have death on our minds? We need to constantly remember that this life isn't the main reason we are here, and need to be willing to die for our beliefs if it is necessary. There is nothing more beautiful than a suffering man on a cross dying because he loves the people who condemned him. Sounds pretty dark and morbid, right? ;)

Okay guys, I do want to understand the "gothic christian" circle but Jesus did not "hang out with Pharisees or prostitutes. Jesus hung out with His disciples and those who followed Him. He preached to both Pharisees and prostitutes.

If you wanted to hang out with Jesus today, just as back then, He says "follow me".

Jesus hanging on the cross bleeding, beaten, and struggling to breath thru the pain is not beautiful. It is heart wrenching! :cry:

What is beautiful is when He, rose from that grave, or when He cooked fish for the disciples on the shoreline, or when ascended to Glory!

We do not need to worry or ponder death anymore because it is only a doorway for those who follows Christ. We will not feel the sting of death anymore. Does the words "ETERNAL LIFE" ring a bell?

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=Buck shot;1749343]Okay guys, I do want to understand the "gothic christian" circle but Jesus did not "hang out with Pharisees or prostitutes. Jesus hung out with His disciples and those who followed Him. He preached to both Pharisees and prostitutes.

Jesus didn't hang out with sinners, eh?:

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. (Matthew 9:10-12, NIV)

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." (Matthew 11:19, NIV)

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." 'But wisdom is proved right by all her children." (Luke 7:34-35, NIV)

Jesus apparently spent just as much time associating with the lost as he did teaching his disciples and other followers.

Paul also says:

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.(1 Corinthians 5:9-11, NIV)

XianGothDude
Aug 14th 2008, 07:58 PM
No we don't need to ponder on death (mortality would have been a more appropriate word for your statement but none the less true). In our culture death really isn't spoken of or man's own mortality at that rate; we tend to get the idea that we will live forever. Jesus ate with and fellowshiped unbelievers a practice that seemed very antithetical the Pharisees; what else do you wish to know or understand Buck Shot about our subculture or our witnessing oppertunities? (Not because we dress in black or "act" like them as I've said before but solely because we share commonground and wish to preach Jesus). Also one last point on skulls and crossbones, you do realize that Golgotha means place of the skull; also called "Calvary" and another definition for this word is: "An experiance that causes intense suffering". I'm not saying to "think" on this but it is something to think about.

wondercoolguy
Aug 14th 2008, 08:00 PM
I believe you all are getting to caught up in the words together Gothic Christian. Separate them, I'm sure pretty sure if you walked up to a Goth and said what religion are you, their answer would be. "I am a Christian." Just like our Cowboy (redneck:rofl:) Christian pointed he doesn't say I'm a Cowboy Christian just Christian.


The point is they are Christians they choose to dress a little darker and they need to be accepted.

Athanasius
Aug 14th 2008, 08:01 PM
I really still don't see why the word 'Gothic' is modifying the word 'Christian'. This seems odd to me? This is Christianity, it's not Arminian Christianity, or Calvin Christianity. Likewise, it's not Gothic Christianity... Seems odd, I don't get it :| I can't separate these two words because every site I visit is Gothic Christianity, to the point of being the Gothic Bride of Christ.

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 08:04 PM
[quote=Buck shot;1749343]Okay guys, I do want to understand the "gothic christian" circle but Jesus did not "hang out with Pharisees or prostitutes. Jesus hung out with His disciples and those who followed Him. He preached to both Pharisees and prostitutes.

Jesus didn't hang out with sinners, eh?:

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. (Matthew 9:10-12, NIV)

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." (Matthew 11:19, NIV)

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." 'But wisdom is proved right by all her children." (Luke 7:34-35, NIV)

Jesus apparently spent just as much time associating with the lost as he did teaching his disciples and other followers.

Paul also says:

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.(1 Corinthians 5:9-11, NIV)
If you go eat with someone, do you consider that as you hang out with them? I did not say Jesus did not hang out with sinners. We are all sinners but how many prostitutes do you remember was with Him in the garden the night He was taken? How many was invited to be at the last supper? How many travelled with Him that did not have a place to lay their head at night? I have eaten with all sorts of folks but the ones I hang with are the ones that I call friends. Jesus ministered and preached to prostitutes and Pharisees.
Read the rest of the verse you highlighted part of. I will turn this part blue.

XianGothDude
Aug 14th 2008, 08:08 PM
Actually and strangely enough; there is such a thing as "Gothic Chrisitanity" remember the goth barbarians I told you about that were devoutly Chrisitan? They were called "Gothic Chrisitans"

tango
Aug 14th 2008, 08:14 PM
Un huh,ok. But if death is your focus and what the things you like are about, how will that be a proper witness that LIFE is your hope? There are cowboys afterall who actually have that job, and so a Christian cowboy is not an oxymoron. In other words, it would not deny the testimony you hold as a Christian. At least not like wearing a skull and crossbones and painting your face to look like a skeleton does.

Are there also Christian vampires and such? Christian witches? ... :hmm:

Who said anything about focussing on death? You can like a genre of music without absorbing every single aspect of that music.

I like thrash metal but don't focus on sacrificing children, largely because most of the metal I listen to is performed by Christian bands. Is the moniker "Christian metalhead" a contradiction?

To use two or more terms to describe yourself is no big deal. I am an English Christian, or a male computer analyst, or one of many other combination of descriptors. Unless two or more are contradictory ("I am a female Englishman", "I am a Christian warlock" etc) there is no problem using multiple descriptors simultaneously.

The key, when describing oneself as a "Christian goth" (or indeed a Christian anything), is which part is more significant. Should the two ever conflict will your Christianity pull you away from the goth scene, or will the goth scene pull you away from Christianity?

Buck shot
Aug 14th 2008, 08:14 PM
Alright Guys, I apologize for my tone in the last couple of posts but one of my pet peaves it how folks get Jesus life confused with someone who just "hung out" and wanted to be everyone's friend. Jesus made folks mad regularly from all the social groups.

Mograce2U
Aug 14th 2008, 08:18 PM
Scourge39,
I did agree with Buckshot that a cowboy could be a Christian but that this was not the same comparison.

Athanasius
Aug 14th 2008, 08:21 PM
Actually and strangely enough; there is such a thing as "Gothic Chrisitanity" remember the goth barbarians I told you about that were devoutly Chrisitan? They were called "Gothic Chrisitans"

Okay, but this doesn't address my post.

Bethany67
Aug 14th 2008, 08:28 PM
Actually and strangely enough; there is such a thing as "Gothic Chrisitanity" remember the goth barbarians I told you about that were devoutly Chrisitan? They were called "Gothic Chrisitans"

If you're talking about the East Germanic tribe, they were Arian, not Christian.

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 09:32 PM
The term 'Christian goth' is used to distinguish it from the secular goth scene. We're talking about an appreciation for gothic subculture (i.e. art, music, fashion) that is informed by the Christian faith, which means it would avoid those elements of the scene that violate Biblical principles. It's not devoid of it like the secular variety.

I understand what you're saying. If I like to bungee jump & I'm a Christian, it's silly to call my personal engagement in that activity 'Christian bungee jumping'. I guess simply saying that one is a Christian who happens to appreciate goth culture is better. It does avoid making it a personal preference rather than the sum total of one's identity.

Athanasius
Aug 14th 2008, 09:53 PM
The term 'Christian goth' is used to distinguish it from the secular goth scene. We're talking about an appreciation for gothic subculture (i.e. art, music, fashion) that is informed by the Christian faith, which means it would avoid those elements of the scene that violate Biblical principles. It's not devoid of it like the secular variety.

And the reason for the term 'Gothic Bride of Christ' ?

scourge39
Aug 14th 2008, 10:12 PM
And the reason for the term 'Gothic Bride of Christ' ?

This is one of those points that I have a problem with personally, but I'm not going to write off ministry to goths because of my own disagreement. Christ founded ONE bride centered around the atoning work and worship of Christ. It's not to be founded on race, color, musical preference, etc. I'm not against specialized ministries that seek to evangelize goths, metalheads, Jews, etc. However, there is a 'seeker sensitive' mentality that still needs to be rejected. Christians who enjoy gothic music, metal, etc. must realize that their identity is 'in Christ,' not in a subculture. On the site I moderate, I make it a point to stress this. As a result, I've been able to plug the people I deal with personally into traditional Churches. Each of these subcultures is in need of Spiritual maturity in this area, there's no doubt about that. There's much 'zeal without knowledge' caused by a lack of discipleship that must be overcome and I'm doing my part as both a trained theologian and proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ, who happens to appreciate the gothic/industrial subculture, to contribute to that maturation process.

wondercoolguy
Aug 17th 2008, 07:44 PM
Tru.dat

Maturity is the big word here in general. From both sides actually for "normal" Christians to not let that neck tie get so tight that it cuts off the blood to their brain. For the Goth side they need not let their sense of rebellion or the need to look different get the best of them.

There is a happy medium and it is found through Jesus. I try to appreciate all factions of Christianity as long as the base belief system is Jesus is the only way to Heaven and that in all we do let it Glorify the Lord. :pp

Oregongrown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:02 PM
It is because of the music of Saviour Machine I am a Christian.

BTW Goth is a subculture within a culture and it transcends ages it is not purely yoof culture.

If you label any group of people as 'other' to yourself your going to have a very hard time getting to know them let alone sharing faith with them.

One word of warning if you do meet Christian goths they tend to be very well read not merely of the bible but of biblical scholars and are perfectly capable of presenting a reasoned defence for their faith; it is they who are best able to witness in their own subculture because they do not get hung up on external appearances.

It tends to be those who are youngsters who opt for the cross between Po the Panda and cracked slap clown look. :lol:

I know little about "goths" except I do know this. It takes me 5 min. to do my hair and "face" since I wear so little makeup but if I did the "goth" thing I'd be getting ready for 8 hours and spending 5 outside my boudoir;) Now I am just funnin you here but when you say goths aren't hung up on external appearances?

God bless, a sister in Christ, denise:)

Elena
Aug 18th 2008, 09:30 PM
I know little about "goths" except I do know this. It takes me 5 min. to do my hair and "face" since I wear so little makeup but if I did the "goth" thing I'd be getting ready for 8 hours and spending 5 outside my boudoir;) Now I am just funnin you here but when you say goths aren't hung up on external appearances?

Actually, when you get good at it it doesn't take any longer than 5-10 minutes to do the whole goth thing either. Maybe if you're doing a mohawk it takes a little longer though. ;) Most goths I know have the idea that they want to be a walking work of art. It's a chance to be creative and it's fun too. Some people dress up extra nice for church, so dressing up to look nice every day isn't any different.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 01:31 AM
Gothic from Dictionary.com

"noting or pertaining to a style characterized by a gloomy setting, grotesque, mysterious, or violent events, and an atmosphere of degeneration and decay:"

So, Degenerate Christian?

Why must we look like the world?

Oregongrown
Aug 19th 2008, 01:56 AM
Well that sounds all good. I truly does. And again, I don't know much about the Goth thing. Isn't it really more than "dress up" though? Isn't there a "lifestyle" behind it? Or maybe, a way of looking at life that might be unbiblical? Im just asking because of what I see others seem to know about being a Gothic person. I haven't been to the website but what is their doctrine for example. Are they straight up bible believers or is there more?

God bless your evening, a sister in Christ, denise

Oregongrown
Aug 19th 2008, 02:23 AM
they would if they are not truly happy with "who they are" or "what belief system they have adapted". I mean I listened to straightlaced women who I could not relate to at all, until they started talking/sharing:) God works in mysterious ways and I believe He can use anyone He wants to reach anyone He wants. For example, how did a Samaritan woman, married 5 times, relate with a true gentle, man that wanted nothing from her, but wanted to give her life everlasting? Not to mention freedom from all her sins?

a sister in Christ, denise

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 03:05 AM
Denise that is an excellent point.

Oregongrown
Aug 19th 2008, 04:28 AM
listening to the same Voice;)

God bless your evening, ysic, denise

itsme23
Aug 19th 2008, 02:24 PM
I always thought gothic type people were God haters, satanic worshipers. The ones I have contact with at my work places tell me, but "gothic Christians"?? I don't get it. I guess just like homosexual Christians...I thought being a "Christian" was being Christ-like. If I acted and dressed like someone satanic and said I was a Christian, the unsaved person whom I would come in contact with would say, "why would I want to be a Christian, you all look, act and talk just like me, (the lost person) so what's the point?"

When I was saved, my eyes were opened, a 180° change in my life. I didn't want to do the things of this world anymore. I wouldn't want to hinder anyone from coming to know Christ. If another Christian seen me dressed like something out of the ordinary, I would think it could make them stumble. I think you all get my point, I hope. Some might call it judging, well, if you think that, Christ commanded us to judge rightious judgement. (John 7:24, Luke 7:43, Luke 12:57, 1 Corinthians 10:15, and 1 Corinthians 2:15 kjv) But this isn't a judgement issue.

If that heathen Marlyn Manson is a gothic type person, he is wicked. He HATES Christians and would kill them all if he could. I would never want to be associated with someone like that.

Well, I've rambled enough and you got my thought on it. I don't think it's Christ like but I can't tell you what to do with your life, it's your choice. That's how God created us.

Flame away.

itsme23
Aug 19th 2008, 02:30 PM
First off I'm brand new to this forum this could have been a post before if so, sorry. I'm 27 and I've been a Christian for 10 years and I feel called to be an evangelist. I'm about to start school this fall. Currently I go to a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. www.tbtchurch.org (http://www.tbtchurch.org)

About six months ago I was introduced to a band called Saviour Machine. Which opened up the door to www.christiangoth.com (http://www.christiangoth.com). There is about six of us feel called into the ministry and each one of them have their different views on this. I wanted to fire this out there to see what this community thinks.

After rereading your post, if you feel that you are called to the minstry, have you disgusted this with your pastor? You did say you go to an independent fundamental baptist church? What would your pastor say about all of this?:hmm:

wondercoolguy
Aug 19th 2008, 05:27 PM
After rereading your post, if you feel that you are called to the minstry, have you disgusted this with your pastor? You did say you go to an independent fundamental baptist church? What would your pastor say about all of this?:hmm:


First off in your previous post you compared Homosexaulity to Gothic Christians. One has to do with the way you dress the other has to do with sexual preference that spits in the face of our God. They aren't alike by any means.

Our church is awesome we have a mixture of races, ages, and styles. We have bikers who wear their biker gear to church, we have emo kids who are emo, we have straight laced. My pastor has this love for people that I've never seen before in my life. I have grown up in several churches through out my life never have I seen a pastor like this one.

If a group of Gothic ppl showed up I know he would smile and welcome them with open arms.

Buck shot
Aug 19th 2008, 06:00 PM
First off in your previous post you compared Homosexaulity to Gothic Christians. One has to do with the way you dress the other has to do with sexual preference that spits in the face of our God. They aren't alike by any means.

Our church is awesome we have a mixture of races, ages, and styles. We have bikers who wear their biker gear to church, we have emo kids who are emo, we have straight laced. My pastor has this love for people that I've never seen before in my life. I have grown up in several churches through out my life never have I seen a pastor like this one.

If a group of Gothic ppl showed up I know he would smile and welcome them with open arms.
We are all supposed to welcome folks with open arms. Your church and pastor sound great but spend some time with him and get to know him. He is probably like some of us that do not try to change people on the outside. We try to show them God and when He changes them on the inside they will change on the outside. Maybe not at first, but as they continue to grow to be mature Christians they will put aside all the worldly stuff.

Oregongrown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:11 PM
work from the "inside" out:) God bless, a sister in Christ, denise:):rolleyes: Here's to lookin at Him!!

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 03:17 AM
We are all supposed to welcome folks with open arms. Your church and pastor sound great but spend some time with him and get to know him. He is probably like some of us that do not try to change people on the outside. We try to show them God and when He changes them on the inside they will change on the outside. Maybe not at first, but as they continue to grow to be mature Christians they will put aside all the worldly stuff.One can only hope as the Spirit is at work in them to sanctify them. It is unfortunate that many today who make the call to "come just as you are" fail to consider or mention that we are not intended to stay like we were found. Yet so often we find that churches would rather "Christianize" sin than teach that we are to reckon it dead. I do not have a problem with bikers and Goths coming into the church, except when 10 years later they are still unchanged, but now "religious", and claim their glory is in being so. Is the image of Christlikeness not also to be visible? Not that one has to now be a "preppy", but without any guile at all would be good.

wondercoolguy
Aug 20th 2008, 03:04 PM
One can only hope as the Spirit is at work in them to sanctify them. It is unfortunate that many today who make the call to "come just as you are" fail to consider or mention that we are not intended to stay like we were found. Yet so often we find that churches would rather "Christianize" sin than teach that we are to reckon it dead. I do not have a problem with bikers and Goths coming into the church, except when 10 years later they are still unchanged, but now "religious", and claim their glory is in being so. Is the image of Christlikeness not also to be visible? Not that one has to now be a "preppy", but without any guile at all would be good.

IMO That is close minded thinking. Whose to say that in 10 years that their ministry of reaching Goths isn't still reaching ppl. What is the cut off point where you say that's enough stop dressing like that and trying to reach people for God? This whole whole "Christlikeness" is taking way out of context. It means mind, body, and soul. Mind is keeping your thoughts and studies directed toward God. Body is keeping it clean of Toxicans. Soul is keeping your Soul as clean as we can through true repentance and praying continually. To tell me that a person can't do all those things because of the way they dress to me is very close minded. Keep in mind all things above are IMO, based off of person studies. :hug:

Withering Grass
Aug 20th 2008, 03:23 PM
The way I would see it, would you see Jesus walking around sharing the gospel decked out all in black? Or dark eyeliner? I think we should walk simply and humbly.

Buck shot
Aug 20th 2008, 03:29 PM
Here is how I look at it... (not worth much as most of you don't know me)

Don't get me wrong, i am not telling anyone they need to change (i do not have the authority to do that if i wanted to)...

Would you change the way you dress if God told you with a still small voice or poked you in the heart that you were a stumbling block for someone else?

I quit smoking several years ago because a guy told me he would never listen to a preacher who smoked. Does smoking make you not a preacher, no. But to have something in my life that i refuse to change makes me rebellious in the eyes of God.

Idols come in many forms. If there is anything in your life that is so important to you that you refuse to give it up or change, you have set it as an idol in your life.

An interesting thing that I have learned though personal studies of folks lives is that when God is maturing His people, He points out the idols that we have one at a time. When it gets to a point that we say we will not give that one up, our growth is stunted. He does not always tell us to get rid of those idols completely, but He wants them not to be idols anymore.

scourge39
Aug 20th 2008, 03:52 PM
The way I would see it, would you see Jesus walking around sharing the gospel decked out all in black? Or dark eyeliner? I think we should walk simply and humbly.

Jesus most likely fit in quite well within the cultural context in which he lived. I really doubt that his physical appearance made him stand out. If the Incarnation occurred today, he'd probably wear ordinary, civilian clothes just like you and me.

itsme23
Aug 20th 2008, 04:12 PM
The way I would see it, would you see Jesus walking around sharing the gospel decked out all in black? Or dark eyeliner? I think we should walk simply and humbly.
Good post!!:agree:

Oregongrown
Aug 20th 2008, 04:54 PM
I was just thinking about how God has changed me, from the person I was before I knew Him. I believe that before we know Christ, some of us atleast, develop our own "thing" so to speak. Something that makes us feel like we belong to "something". This is for me and also about a few folks I have met along the way. I wanted to "be somebody" and "stand out" so to speak. But as I grow in Christ, I don't want to stand out, I want Him to stand out in me. When the Word tells us to be like Christ I take that pretty much for what it says. No we can't be perfect but knowing all He has done for me makes me want to follow Him with all that is in me. I was a bar-fly and dressed the part in tight jeans, wild hair, tons of makeup and low-cut tops. I ripped and ran. Jesus got hold of me though and now I don't stand out in a crowd at all and I love it!! Because I am secure in the knowledge that I am His and He lives in me through The Holy Spirit. If I am noticed I pray that people see Jesus in me. I am somebody, Im a child of the King:)

I hope this helps someone, God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

wondercoolguy
Aug 20th 2008, 05:25 PM
Idols come in many forms. If there is anything in your life that is so important to you that you refuse to give it up or change, you have set it as an idol in your life.

An interesting thing that I have learned though personal studies of folks lives is that when God is maturing His people, He points out the idols that we have one at a time. When it gets to a point that we say we will not give that one up, our growth is stunted. He does not always tell us to get rid of those idols completely, but He wants them not to be idols anymore.

/agreed
I have a Church bud of mine that bascially got me in to watching MMA. I didn't know this but he would stay up till like 2am in the morning read stats and watching videos and interviews. God finally convicted him and he gave up cold turkey. We all hated to see him go but that's his own personal conviction he got not hastle from us.

Does anyone know of a complete Goth church or ever gone to one?

itsme23
Aug 20th 2008, 05:39 PM
I was just thinking about how God has changed me, from the person I was before I knew Him. I believe that before we know Christ, some of us atleast, develop our own "thing" so to speak. Something that makes us feel like we belong to "something". This is for me and also about a few folks I have met along the way. I wanted to "be somebody" and "stand out" so to speak. But as I grow in Christ, I don't want to stand out, I want Him to stand out in me. When the Word tells us to be like Christ I take that pretty much for what it says. No we can't be perfect but knowing all He has done for me makes me want to follow Him with all that is in me. I was a bar-fly and dressed the part in tight jeans, wild hair, tons of makeup and low-cut tops. I ripped and ran. Jesus got hold of me though and now I don't stand out in a crowd at all and I love it!! Because I am secure in the knowledge that I am His and He lives in me through The Holy Spirit. If I am noticed I pray that people see Jesus in me. I am somebody, Im a child of the King:)

I hope this helps someone, God bless, a sister in Christ, denise

Amen! :amen: Good testimony!

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 06:14 PM
Buckshot,
It is common today to call stongholds in our lives "idols", much like some give demons the names of certain sins. But sin is not a demon and it is not an idol. An idol is what you put your trust in and call it "god" because sin has deceived you. Money can be an idol in this way because of greed. Your little red corvette may fill your affections but that does not make it an idol which is worshipped. The car may actually bring you some advantage, but unless you think it is God bringing you this blessing, it is not an idol.

An idol is more along the line of things we are superstitous about that we do to ward off evil and trouble, or think will bring us blessing. An idol is the thing of our own imagination that stands between us and the God in whom we are to trust. Idolatry is about covetousness and greed which makes men do what they ought not because they see a gain for themselves and wrap it up in religious garb in order to content themselves that what they do also "pleases God". And because we now think that what we are doing is pleasing to God, we err when we think He now owes us something for our performance.

Saying 50 "hail Mary's" comes to mind, as does wearing a scapular or blessing oneself in the sight of a crucifix. But the Catholics are not the only ones who do such things. I have heard a few Protestants use their church attendance in this way, or their good works - thinking God now owes them a blessing for it. It is the attitude of trying to hedge your bets where God is concerned rather than coming in faith because you know and understand His revealed nature.

Idolatry is all about a wrong view of God and not believing what He has said. It is the temptation that the serpent presented to Eve which allowed her to decide for herself as if she were God, what would be acceptable to Him or not, because to her it seemed good in her own eyes. And because she desired the thing that was forbidden, she then justified her disobedience and forgot what God had said.

And it is always religious in nature whether it is only in the imagination of our own minds or an actual little statue or not. It is the mindset that says to oneself, God will not judge if I do thus and such, because He didn't really mean to say that this thing I want I cannot have. So I will do my 50 hail mary's first (or whatever minimal thing one may think will satisfy God) and then my conscience will be set free. It is how one deceives oneself to believe the lie and follow after the devil instead. That is the man who is following after an idol even though he calls it "Jesus".

Bethany67
Aug 20th 2008, 06:42 PM
There are a couple of Goth churches in London:

http://www.asylumlondon.com/

http://www.gloriousundead.com/

I've not visited them so I don't know what they're like. Elouise might know.

Elouise
Aug 20th 2008, 07:10 PM
Asylum and Glorious Undead have their roots from Kensington Temple.
I think Asylum moved away from there and established links with other Churches who have compassion for those who feel marginalized by the church.

There is also ARA in Manchester. All three are primarily 'outreach' taking the gospel message to people where they are and offering fellowship to those who are Christian but find the church struggles to accept them.

:note: I did not find Asylum could cope with the idea of anyone with a LHP background though; Soho at night with its things and its peoples does not scare them but for some reason the occult does. I suspect that may have something to do with having origins at Kensington Temple.

I share the gospel dressed in black. Saves a lot of time in the morning too and tends not to show the ink stains from scribing at seminary.

Bethany67
Aug 20th 2008, 07:15 PM
Yeah KT would do it alright; not a place I would recommend. I've been there and it's one of the only two churches I've ever walked out of midway. They had a blind Spanish lady up on stage and Colin Dye was yelling at her and shaking her when she wasn't healed after they prayed. Grotesque. In the UK the Elim Pentecostals have always generally been more 'out there' than the AOG.

They're into G12 from Bogota which has caused some problems for people I know personally; it ruined one little non-denom chapel in North London and became really cultish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G12_Vision

Oregongrown
Aug 20th 2008, 10:59 PM
The bible says that nothing in His appearance would attract us to Him nor would we desire Him. I think this speaks a lot about how we are to be as well. It's an inside job, and if it is not about outwardly appearances that "would" draw attention, why would any follower of Christ want to do that? If you think about how God created us to be, we weren't to wear anything at all but because of sin He made coverings for us and still today, it is right with Him that we should be modest in our dress. So's not to attract attention. The "worlds" way is to attract attention, be popular or atleast well-known. Humility is something that a person learns as they walk with Christ. Being humble, taking the seat at the end of the table rather than fighting to be first. Being humble is not weak, being humble is showing God's strength in us. We know we are someone in Him and we have nothing to prove.

Love to all, a sister in Christ, denise

Isaiah 53:1-6
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

wondercoolguy
Aug 21st 2008, 03:07 PM
There are a couple of Goth churches in London:

http://www.asylumlondon.com/

http://www.gloriousundead.com/

I've not visited them so I don't know what they're like. Elouise might know.

Wild, that's crazy I love it. You may see me post something one day of an internet website that is a Gothic Church LOL.:pp I just wish I knew how to make website pages :-( :B

Krav
Aug 25th 2008, 03:56 AM
Personally, I think the term "Christian-goth" is an oxymoron. If you read about the gothic culture it is quite adamantly opposed to Christ and His righteousness.

I have a personal knowledge of the movement, though I was never goth, so I can say for some assurity that goth is as compatible with Biblical Christianity as Freemasonry is.

Elouise
Aug 25th 2008, 07:21 AM
Krav

Perhaps you could provide evidence to support your statement.

scourge39
Aug 25th 2008, 07:57 AM
Krav

Perhaps you could provide evidence to support your statement.

My sentiments exactly.

Bethany67
Aug 25th 2008, 08:41 AM
Personally, I think the term "Christian-goth" is an oxymoron. If you read about the gothic culture it is quite adamantly opposed to Christ and His righteousness.

Ah I see - like the 'country music culture' with its emphasis on alcohol, infidelity, gun violence and big ostentatious trucks :D

wondercoolguy
Aug 25th 2008, 03:37 PM
Personally, I think the term "Christian-goth" is an oxymoron. If you read about the gothic culture it is quite adamantly opposed to Christ and His righteousness.

I have a personal knowledge of the movement, though I was never goth, so I can say for some assurity that goth is as compatible with Biblical Christianity as Freemasonry is.


You almost had it, you said the "Goth Culture" is anti God; what about the "Christian Goth Culture"?

scourge39
Aug 25th 2008, 10:52 PM
Every one of the passages you cite are conveniently taken way out of their original context.

amazzin
Aug 25th 2008, 10:57 PM
If I do something that cause you to be offened then I have sinned against you and need to ask for your forgiveness.

Likewise, the converse is true.

Krav
Aug 26th 2008, 03:07 AM
Eloise and wondercooguy,

As I suspected, and even stated my suspicions that it would be, my post providing the evidence that you both requested was deleted.

Unfortunately, I provided also a lot of scriptural citations and reasoning as to why Christians cannot be goths. If they are then they are living a double life... in 2 worlds at once.

Anyways, there is a certain sense of frustration on my part when asked for evidence only to have it removed by the mods.

For anyone else interested, doing a simple Google search of "Goth" will confirm any suspicions that you have that it is not glorifying to Christ. And, as Christians, that is what we are to do.

My apologies to the mods for posting pics of actual goth people just going about their normal lives. I know it is ugly to see and that was the point of the pictures. As they say, a picture says a thousand words.

Question to mods: Would you consider reposting my post without the pictures? The rest of the post was purely Biblical.

In Christ....

wondercoolguy
Aug 26th 2008, 03:44 AM
Eloise and wondercooguy,

As I suspected, and even stated my suspicions that it would be, my post providing the evidence that you both requested was deleted.

Unfortunately, I provided also a lot of scriptural citations and reasoning as to why Christians cannot be goths. If they are then they are living a double life... in 2 worlds at once.

Anyways, there is a certain sense of frustration on my part when asked for evidence only to have it removed by the mods.

For anyone else interested, doing a simple Google search of "Goth" will confirm any suspicions that you have that it is not glorifying to Christ. And, as Christians, that is what we are to do.

My apologies to the mods for posting pics of actual goth people just going about their normal lives. I know it is ugly to see and that was the point of the pictures. As they say, a picture says a thousand words.

Question to mods: Would you consider reposting my post without the pictures? The rest of the post was purely Biblical.

In Christ....

The time it took you to type the above text you could posted your previous post with out pics ;)

If Goths don't introduce Jesus to their culture who will? You want to sterotype them as anti-everything why would they listen to us?

http://www.christiangoth.com/statement.html

Read their statement and then come back and tell me they aren't necessary

Elouise
Aug 26th 2008, 08:32 AM
Krav,

I have held those who are grieving, prayed with those who are in dispair, used the counseling and mentoring skills and qualifications I have to enable families in often extreme distress in His name.
How does this dishonour Christ?

It was not a problem for the Christian seminary I train at that I serve so as a Goth who loves Christ. At heart I am a 'dark romantic'.
I can be described as eccentric but God saw fit to make me both 'weird' and gifted; being gifted within the average Church community can cause far more problems than being Goth ever could.

Nor was being Goth a problem for the church I was employed by prior to beginning full time training as a bridge between church and health provision this academic year.

Nor is this a problem for those who come needing help from the Christians and churches who know me to contact me and ask for me to help.


A normal Goth life involves going to the shops to buy food, paying bills, fetching kids from school, going to work, caring for aging parents. Did you post those images or merely look for tabloid images taken out of context?

I do know the goth sub-culture, rather well, I was there at the beginning and found the honesty of seeing the world as it is far more real than the saccharin veneer that main stream culture prefers to throw over suffering whilst indulging itself. You condemn a sub-culture you have no knowledge of or compassion for based on mere hearsay and supposition.
Look beyond your own prejudice and see the hearts of the people Christ sees.

wondercoolguy
Aug 26th 2008, 11:58 AM
:saint:Amen:saint:

XianGothDude
Aug 26th 2008, 08:55 PM
I was just going to step back into this topic after reading all that was said; why is this topic even still going on? Is it wrong that I or my friends enjoy darkly romantic and at times macabre subject matter? Or that some of us like wearing vintage victorian clothing or any other assortment of gothic fashion? What "seperates" us from loving God or in this case God loving us? Krav I haven't seen this pictures you posted but you remarked that these pictures were "ugly to see" is that what you think of us? Ugly?

ViolaSnapdragon
Aug 26th 2008, 09:35 PM
A lot of people have actually claimed my dressy style to be rather pretty, even folks at my dad's church. Granted it may be a little more watered down than most goth styles, especially considering the fact that I do not wear that much makeup anymore, but I still fit in just fine and even received compliments at the local goth meet-up when I would attend. I really think "ugly" is a very harsh word to use. It is okay to express that one dislikes another one's choices, as others in this thread have, whether one has a well-thought out reason why they dislike such choices but using terminology that is insulting at best and abusive at worst is not a good thing to do.

Krav
Aug 27th 2008, 04:34 AM
The time it took you to type the above text you could posted your previous post with out pics ;)

If Goths don't introduce Jesus to their culture who will?

When I got saved I was a DJ in the rave scene. God got a hold of me in other ways. He didn't need to send a "Christian raver" to me.

How do you propose we reach those engaged in the porn industry? Shall we infiltrate?

I'm not trying to be legalistic here. It just always bothers me that the Church feels so strongly that they have to become like the world. Almost as if we don't think that Christ and the gospel is enough. We have to say, you can have Jesus and still be a goth (or whatever you identity seems to be).

Remember that we are to take on a new identity in Christ after conversion.

2Co 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Regarding just "retyping my old message..." I think I'm better off the hip. The Spirit flows better that way rather than me trying to remember what I posted earlier verbatim... gets too academic that way.

I just want to let ya know that I'm not trying to beat on you or anyone about this. I'm not trying to get legalistic, either. I listen to some music that goths would even enjoy, I'm sure. But, dressing for darkness just doesn't seem compatible with children of light.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 27th 2008, 06:19 AM
How do you propose we reach those engaged in the porn industry? Shall we infiltrate?

If what you mean by "infiltrate" is start making porn movies, then no....but there are other means of infiltrating the porn industry than being a performer.

I've been directly involved in a ministry that reaches out to porn stars for about 9 months now, and that is exactly what we do.....we infiltrate the places where they hang-out, meet them where they are, because we know that these people probably won't be stepping foot inside of a church anytime soon. Just a few months ago, we went inside a porn convention and handed out Bibles and tracts. If that's not infiltrating, I don't know what is.

I don't think it's necessarily bad to identify yourself with someone in order to reach them with the gospel. Even the apostle Paul said that, in order to reach some, he would be all things to all people.

Granted, I don't know much about the goth lifestyle, although from what I understand about it, there are heavy demonic elements. That is why the Holy Spirit's guidance would be absolutely crucial in a ministry such as this, as it is in any ministry, but I would think that someone trying to reach out to this sector would need incredible discernment and wisdom.

That being said, as long as one is not sacrificing the Gospel message, I see abslutely nothing wrong with reaching out like this....to a certain extent.

Sometimes, the only way to reach someone for Christ is to identify with him/her, and some people are so closed off to church and what they perceive to be Christianity that the only person they will respond to is someone like themselves.

XianGothDude
Aug 27th 2008, 06:22 AM
Okay..... how many times do I have to state this in how many forums, we as a group of Christians do not "dress" to save, that's just STUPID; provided I dress in black, wear a trench coat ect ect ect. Yet no one listens to me or you all overlook my posts on this one point I'm trying to point out; I can honestly say no one who has a Christian Goth website is trying to "Christianize" anything about the subculture; we know what the subculture is about, we also recognize that goths are quite respective alone without the need to "dress up" for them. In all honestly we dress in black and such simply because it suits us; no other reason than that; why can't any of you be satisfied with that reason?

Elouise
Aug 27th 2008, 06:49 AM
Krav,

If the 'rave scene' was your idol then yes that would need to have changed.

For those working in the pron scene I guess I reach out as I do to asylum seekers and other dispised marginalized groups.
Where they are because they will not come to the church.
As the goth who loves Christ.

We are told by scripture to be in the world but not of the world. The world labels people as 'other' then sets about demonising them. That is one worldly preoccupation the church could do without following.

When the bible speaks of darkness it is not referring to a colour or even 'goth' it is referring to a spiritual state. Some fo the darkest people I have meet in the church have worn a sunday smile, light clothing and poured forth pure evil fruits.

Be like Christ look at the heart not the outward appearances or your presumptions based on such appearances.

ViolaSnapdragon
Aug 27th 2008, 10:43 AM
I've been directly involved in a ministry that reaches out to porn stars for about 9 months now, and that is exactly what we do.....we infiltrate the places where they hang-out, meet them where they are, because we know that these people probably won't be stepping foot inside of a church anytime soon. Just a few months ago, we went inside a porn convention and handed out Bibles and tracts. If that's not infiltrating, I don't know what is.

Good for you! I would never be able to pull off something like that because porn upsets me so bad anymore that if I were to infiltrate a convention I'd have an anxiety attack within five minutes of being there. It's good that there are people who are able and willing to take on such a ministry.


Granted, I don't know much about the goth lifestyle, although from what I understand about it, there are heavy demonic elements.

Eh... Hmmm... Okay, it took me a minute or so to think about how to answer this. If you were to seek out the definition of "goth" and went to five different web sites, you would likely find five almost completely different answers. To some, a goth is someone who listens to mostly gothic music and wears gothic fashion. To others, a goth is simply someone who sees beauty in "dark" things.

What I am trying to get at I guess is that "goth" is a rather gray area, like anything else could be for example, the "country" or "hip-hop" lifestyle. For some reason though Christians are more apt to speak out against goth than the other two. Thing is, sin seems more prevalent in hip-hop than goth. When I attended local Wednesday night meet-ups regularly, one thing stood out most. The people were some of the nicest, most polite people I had ever met in a group setting. There was some drinking but no drunkenness, little cursing, and everyone was kind and respectful to each other. The only issue was the immodest dress on some of the people, but that will be seen in most any group setting.

1of7000
Aug 30th 2008, 03:57 PM
"What I am trying to get at I guess is that "goth" is a rather gray area"

That made me chuckle :) cause I thought it was black and white.

on a more serious note it's all about honesty, why do we dress the way we do? is it to shock and awe or because it's us and our taste in fashion,cultural background, or part of the lifestyle of a sport, hobby or other interest?

if it offends others am i prepared to accept that or whine when they don't. and to me the whining is a symptom of the lack of acceptance of self. in other words "i don't accept me so you must." no XianGothDude I do not mean you. but if you have to shout maybe the folks you shout at are deaf.

social acceptability is not the same as spiritual sonship. in any family there are the quirky and offbeat but i find them to have the greater heart for God than the pack. James wrote a letter about that,which i think is ironic because he seemed to look on the outward more than the inward. if a person is good enough for God then I have no right or reason to judge.

honesty, objective self evaluation, is key to change in order to operate God's power more effectively.

It don't matter what you wear, God has clothed you that you might care.

Krav
Aug 30th 2008, 04:31 PM
Sometimes, the only way to reach someone for Christ is to identify with him/her, and some people are so closed off to church and what they perceive to be Christianity that the only person they will respond to is someone like themselves.

I totally agree. That's why I can relate to people who are in the movement that I was called out of. But, I was called out of it. Remember, come out from among them and be ye separate.

If we are so much like them, why do we want them to become like us?

Mograce2U
Aug 30th 2008, 05:47 PM
I totally agree. That's why I can relate to people who are in the movement that I was called out of. But, I was called out of it. Remember, come out from among them and be ye separate.

If we are so much like them, why do we want them to become like us?This is where Paul's instructions to the saints in Asia help the churches for how they ought to conduct themselves in the assembly. The Greeks and Romans had idol temples in every city - and prostitutes worked them. Obviously Paul's instructions were for the culture of his day, that there might be a distinction in the assemblies of the saints as they gathered to show their reverence to the Holy God they served and hoped in by faith. Paul brings admonishment for behavior & conduct as well as to how they ought to dress.

But our "come just as you are" generation doesn't want to cease their worldly rebellion when they come into the churches to worship at the Lord's feet. They don't care what the saints think and apparently don't see that the Lord has any plans to change them either. But He does and He will, until He has conformed them into His image. So I suppose we can expect to see those who have yet to fully make this transition from the ways of the world into the ways of the Lord. Then we can know they have been given ears to hear and a heart to understand and will hear us too.

Until then we can be merciful to their ignorance and hope to instruct those that are out of the way - which is what the Lord would have us to do, since this is what He does. When they have fully embraced this life He has given them, I suspect they will stop wanting to look like the walking dead, who He has delivered them from.

Yet even when given Manna to eat, Israel still longed for the leeks and such from their days in Egypt (Num 11:5-6). Unfortunately, that longing led to their rebellion against the Lord who had delivered them and they did not enter into the rest that God had promised to give them. We all still have a long way to go (hopefully) before that eternal rest comes for us. And we need to help these young ones find the narrow path that leads to life. They are wanting to dance in the broad road with the others, but the way home is not to be found there. When trials and affliction come on that road they will no doubt turn back to seek the Lord who bought them and be ready to hear and crush those idols they have enjoyed for so long:

(Isa 30:21 KJV) And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

(Isa 30:22-24 KJV) Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence. {23} Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures. {24} The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 30th 2008, 06:11 PM
Eh... Hmmm... Okay, it took me a minute or so to think about how to answer this. If you were to seek out the definition of "goth" and went to five different web sites, you would likely find five almost completely different answers. To some, a goth is someone who listens to mostly gothic music and wears gothic fashion. To others, a goth is simply someone who sees beauty in "dark" things.

What I am trying to get at I guess is that "goth" is a rather gray area, like anything else could be for example, the "country" or "hip-hop" lifestyle. For some reason though Christians are more apt to speak out against goth than the other two. Thing is, sin seems more prevalent in hip-hop than goth. When I attended local Wednesday night meet-ups regularly, one thing stood out most. The people were some of the nicest, most polite people I had ever met in a group setting. There was some drinking but no drunkenness, little cursing, and everyone was kind and respectful to each other. The only issue was the immodest dress on some of the people, but that will be seen in most any group setting.

Thanks for that clarification. I thought the goth lifestyle was synonymous with those who were into vampires and BDSM.

XianGothDude
Aug 30th 2008, 09:30 PM
Goth is a subculture of people of varying ages, races, sexes etc with different views, beliefs, opinions and tastes; the things that tie us together as a subculture though; is our love of art, poetry, music, fashion, literature; all having to do with dark or macabre subject matter; (ie Gothic Horror). This does not mean having to be occultic (and a more extreme example) Satanic, just dark; theatrical or dramatic; this I think is what most Christians don't understand about goths. Its true though that some goths are into BDSM and vampires (vampires are a given in gothic horror) but there are those few within the goth scene that take it to a very disturbing level and believe themselves to be any manner of supernatural creatures (werewolves, vampires, ect). Now Krav tell me I didn't know Raving was a "movement" its a scene but not a movement, for anything to be a "movement" it has to have a social or politcal statement behind itself (ie Punk, Hippie, new age, some lifestyle ect).

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 30th 2008, 09:50 PM
all having to do with dark or macabre subject matter; (ie Gothic Horror). This does not mean having to be occultic (and a more extreme example) Satanic, just dark;

Hi, Xian;

May I ask you something? How would you define "dark?"
Is "darkness" the primary element that defines the goth subculture?

The reason I ask is because as I was reading that, this Scripture came blaring forth:

2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Christ identified Himself as the light of the world....if the goth culture celebrates darkness, I would think it very hard to have any sort of a connection.

To what level is this darkness taken? The reason I am asking all of this is because a lot of people who are involved in lifestyles that celebrate darkness are not completely aware of the darkness that is actually involved. It may seem groovy and romantic, but beneath the surface, there is an element of evil.

Evil can have a very beautiful and enticing side.

XianGothDude
Aug 30th 2008, 11:34 PM
If you quoted me further day I gave an example by sayig theatrical and dramatic, but also goths typically ponder over the human condition as a whole. We don't "celebrate" darkness but it is there; to be honest gothic horror is often linked with romanctism and dark romanticism as a whole. I keep hearing people say there's this "element of evil" within subculture I'd say its more or less a strange small from all the incense we burn and cloves we smoke LOL. But seriously goth really is more or less the new romancticism and at times this can focus on things that are dark, passionate, beautiful etc. its not exclusively "harping" on darkness but its there. As for it being evil? No its not; its simply realizing darkness is there and moving on; death is there, and moving on etc. We don't "focus or harp" on death

XianGothDude
Aug 30th 2008, 11:35 PM
I see this so many times on so many differnet topics discussing goths and the gothic subculture is that Christians are trying to put something there that isn't there but they want it to be because they just don't understand it. No offense at all but its what I've seen time and time again.

scourge39
Aug 30th 2008, 11:54 PM
I see this so many times on so many differnet topics discussing goths and the gothic subculture is that Christians are trying to put something there that isn't there but they want it to be because they just don't understand it. No offense at all but its what I've seen time and time again.

You're wasting your time trying to help this crowd understand gothic culture. They've already made up their minds on the subject. It's like trying to reason with the KJV-Only or Dispensational crowd. They don't want to change their thinking or have their current position challenged. Just move on, brother. This thread is pointless.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 30th 2008, 11:57 PM
You're wasting your time trying to help this crowd understand gothic culture. They've already made up their minds on the subject. It's like trying to reason with the KJV-Only or Dispensational crowd. They don't want to change their thinking or have their current position challenged. Just move on, brother. This thread is pointless.

Now wait a minute....That's a little unfair, don't you think? I just got here.

What is it that I'm failing to understand here?

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 12:02 AM
I don't feel like I'm wasting my time prsonally; and no one here has demonstrated their dispostion to think a certain way and never be moved from it; so therefore it is valid for me to atleast try and explain to them what goth is and isn't about. So no, I'm not wasting my time.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 31st 2008, 12:10 AM
I keep hearing people say there's this "element of evil" within subculture I'd say its more or less a strange small from all the incense we burn and cloves we smoke LOL. But seriously goth really is more or less the new romancticism and at times this can focus on things that are dark, passionate, beautiful etc. its not exclusively "harping" on darkness but its there. As for it being evil? No its not; its simply realizing darkness is there and moving on; death is there, and moving on etc. We don't "focus or harp" on death

Wait a minute....I'd like to engage you further, if I may. I'm not trying to be judgemental, just inquisitive.

I had asked you how much of the goth scene deals with darkness, and you said that you pretty much just recognize it, and move on. Am I to assume that this means that you don't dwell on it? So, then, how much of your energy, would you say, is spent on dark things?

As such, if not all goth activities involve the dark side, what kinds of goth activities would be contributed to exploring the counterpoint, which is light? What percentage of your time is involves dwelling on things that are not dark?

Also, if I may ask.....how do most goths feel about Christianity as a way of life? Just curious

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 12:10 AM
Now wait a minute....That's a little unfair, don't you think? I just got here.

What is it that I'm failing to understand here?

This board attracts a certain segment of the Church that seems to relish the status quo, at least as they see it anyway, and looks at change or 'difference' with suspicion. In other words, this is a very 'safe' forum. That's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's just how it is. There are some here who've made up their minds on certain topics. That ultimately kills dialogue and meaningful discussion. I wasn't singling any particular individual out in that previous post.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 31st 2008, 12:17 AM
This board attracts a certain segment of the Church that seems to relish the status quo, at least as they see it anyway, and looks at change or 'difference' with suspicion. In other words, this is a very 'safe' forum. That's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's just how it is. There are some here who've made up their minds on certain topics. That ultimately kills dialogue and meaningful discussion. I wasn't singling any particular individual out in that previous post.

Alrightee, then.

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 12:17 AM
Gothic Christian music in particular is very orchestral/ liturgical-sounding. Personally, it's good background music for Biblical contemplation and meditation. It's very conducive to creating a reverent, worshipful atmosphere. It's not all upbeat and 'happy clappy' like some modern praise choruses, but then again, neither are many of the Psalms.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 31st 2008, 12:20 AM
Gothic Christian music in particular is very orchestral/ liturgical-sounding. Personally, it's good background music for Biblical contemplation and meditation. It's very conducive to creating a very reverent, worshipful atmosphere. It's not all upbeat and 'happy clappy' like some praise choruses, but then again, neither are many of the Psalms.

How does that differ from secular goth? What is secular goth?
Is that similar to industrial?

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 12:33 AM
How does that differ from secular goth? What is secular goth?
Is that similar to industrial?

Goth & Industrial sometimes overlap. Christian Gothic Music addresses Biblical topics just like other Christian music. It also sometimes addresses dark subject matter like suicide, broken relationships, and death from a Christian viewpoint. Industrial tends to be dark too, but more synth-based. There are many subgenres, and the term 'industrial' has become a relative musical term in recent years. Some is upbeat and dance-oriented while some is not. If you'd like to hear some Christian gothic music for free, visit:

http://www.flamingfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=5&Itemid=40

Scroll down to 'The Eternal Chapter.' Their whole album (they only recorded one, unfortunately) is there for free download. Being from the UK, they really understood the genre. It still stangs as one of the best Christian Goth albums ever recorded. I'm glad we were able to release it.

Mograce2U
Aug 31st 2008, 12:37 AM
This board attracts a certain segment of the Church that seems to relish the status quo, at least as they see it anyway, and looks at change or 'difference' with suspicion. In other words, this is a very 'safe' forum. That's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's just how it is. There are some here who've made up their minds on certain topics. That ultimately kills dialogue and meaningful discussion. I wasn't singling any particular individual out in that previous post.Sure you were. But that's ok because we obviously have a different understanding of what it means to be saved out of idolatry. You seem to think it means that it ought to be expected that the front can be kept up because there is still something good to be gleaned from it, which is what your posts are trying to affirm. Dump the demonic and keep the trappings. Good luck with that.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 12:40 AM
Well typically goths romanticise about a great deal of things; finding and seeing beauty in everything (even the dark); no more, no less. Well secular goth music is focused more or social injustices, romanticising over alot of things ect. Its really no different other than Christian Gothic bands tend to do the same thing but also emphasis God. As for how the majority of goths feel about Christianity is typically a rejection of "organized religion"; most come from Christian or Catholic backgrounds and found them to be too rigid or dogmatic so they turn to agnosticism, paganism, or atheism. But they are not in anyway hostile to Christians; but they do watch us VERY carefully for signs that only reinforce or breakdown their perceptions of us.

Mograce2U
Aug 31st 2008, 12:49 AM
Well typically goths romanticise about a great deal of things; finding and seeing beauty in everything (even the dark); no more, no less. Well secular goth music is focused more or social injustices, romanticising over alot of things ect. Its really no different other than Christian Gothic bands tend to do the same thing but also emphasis God. As for how the majority of goths feel about Christianity is typically a rejection of "organized religion"; most come from Christian or Catholic backgrounds and found them to be too rigid or dogmatic so they turn to agnosticism, paganism, or atheism. But they are not in anyway hostile to Christians; but they do watch us VERY carefully for signs that only reinforce or breakdown their perceptions of us.I'm glad to hear that, it gives me hope they will listen. You can't dance next to the fire and still consider youself in the safest place you could be.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 31st 2008, 12:51 AM
Well typically goths romanticise about a great deal of things; finding and seeing beauty in everything (even the dark); no more, no less.

Arguing from a purely philosophical standpoint, how is it possible to find beauty in everything? I can see how such a philosophy would appeal to someone who experienced a lot of pain in life, to try and make sense of it, but I really don't see how it's possible to see beauty in everything. Can you explain a little more?
What about abuse, and social injustice? Where is the beauty in that?!
So, then, if there is beauty in everything, could you also not argue that there is ugliness in everything, as well? I guess everything has an alter-ego.


As for how the majority of goths feel about Christianity is typically a rejection of "organized religion"; most come from Christian or Catholic backgrounds and found them to be too rigid or dogmatic so they turn to agnosticism, paganism, or atheism. But they are not in anyway hostile to Christians; but they do watch us VERY carefully for signs that only reinforce or breakdown their perceptions of us.

I guess I can understand that. I was raised in an Assembly of God church, which was extremely regimented, but it appears that more of them focus on the religious aspects rather than the fact that Christianity is primarily about a relationship with God. How familiar are goths with the actual life of Christ? Are they aware of His stance on the status quo and religious leaders of His day?

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 12:58 AM
Sure you were. But that's ok because we obviously have a different understanding of what it means to be saved out of idolatry. You seem to think it means that it ought to be expected that the front can be kept up because there is still something good to be gleaned from it, which is what your posts are trying to affirm. Dump the demonic and keep the trappings. Good luck with that.

Having personal preferences in dress and music is hardly 'idolatry.' If Christ is central in their worship and governs the extent to which they involve themselves in gothic culture, then you can't rightly accuse them of idolatry. So they like the color black, so did Johnny Cash. Does that make them lesser Christians?

The sacred versus secular argument is a false dichotomy. Not everything in secular culture, including Gothic culture, is inherently evil, or 'demonic'. God is sovereign over it all anyway. There's much in it that Christians can agree with and that can be used to glorify Christ. There's no reason to reject it all completely.

The Church has used secular things to communicate the Gospel for centuries. I suggest that you study Martin Luther's hymns. You'll discover that some of them were written to the tune of popular German bar songs that were common in his day. I suppose they're garbage too, eh? Too many Christians gloss over this fact, even some Lutherans.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 12:58 AM
Well actually maybe I was alittle exaggerate on that; basically it seeing things that are beautiful as beautiful but also seeing things that are dark (once again dramatic, theatrical etc) as such as well and to quote another person on goth: "Finding beauty where others don't."

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 01:04 AM
I'll give you all a Christian example of that; Christ's death.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 31st 2008, 01:14 AM
I'll give you all a Christian example of that; Christ's death.


Now that's a good example. :thumbsup:

Mograce2U
Aug 31st 2008, 01:23 AM
Having personal preferences in dress and music is hardly 'idolatry.' If Christ is central in their worship and governs the extent to which they involve themselves in gothic culture, then you can't rightly accuse them of idolatry. So they like the color black, so did Johnny Cash. Does that make them lesser Christians?

The sacred versus secular argument is a false dichotomy. Not everything in secular culture, including Gothic culture, is inherently evil, or 'demonic'. God is sovereign over it all anyway. There's much in it that Christians can agree with and that can be used to glorify Christ. There's no reason to reject it all completely.

The Church has used secular things to communicate the Gospel for centuries. I suggest that you study Martin Luther's hymns. You'll discover that some of them were written to the tune of popular German bar songs that were common in his day. I suppose they're garbage too, eh? Too many Christians gloss over this fact, even some Lutherans.Using a tune that was used to sing a bar song is hardly the same thing - being that such things are neutral in and of themselves. Dressing to look like a zombie is different. It makes a statement that is in line with the original intent for why such things were done in the first place. That is the affinity which is being kept in place.

Cloudburst talked earlier of going to a porn convention to hand out gospel tracts - what she did not mention (and I am sure she did not do), was to dress up like a pornstar to win them over.

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 01:37 AM
Using a tune that was used to sing a bar song is hardly the same thing - being that such things are neutral in and of themselves. Dressing to look like a zombie is different. It makes a statement that is in line with the original intent for why such things were done in the first place. That is the affinity which is being kept in place.

This is where your outsider's perspective is 100% wrong. Christian goths redefine what their appearance represents and distinguish it from that of secular goths. Their reasons for wearing black are similar to those of Johnny Cash. I have several friends who are Christian Goths. For many, it's a reminder to them that they live in a fallen world and are longing for Christ's return when everything in creation ultimately will be redeemed under his rule. What's so wrong about that Scripturally? Yes, it does make a statement, but the Christian Goth is making a very different one than the secular goth. I've seen their explanation for why they wear black open up many doors to present the Gospel rather profoundly to others. I'm not going to stand in the way of that at all.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 01:43 AM
Mograce2u can you please elaborate on your view of why Gothic clothing is wrong? And can you please give an example of what gothic clothing entails to you?

Mograce2U
Aug 31st 2008, 02:25 AM
This is where your outsider's perspective is 100% wrong. Christian goths redefine what their appearance represents and distinguish it from that of secular goths. Their reasons for wearing black are similar to those of Johnny Cash. I have several friends who are Christian Goths. For many, it's a reminder to them that they live in a fallen world and are longing for Christ's return when everything in creation ultimately will be redeemed under his rule. What's so wrong about that Scripturally? Yes, it does make a statement, but the Christian Goth is making a very different one than the secular goth. I've seen their explanation for why they wear black open up many doors to present the Gospel rather profoundly to others. I'm not going to stand in the way of that at all.Where are we instructed to take the things the pagans do and Christianize them for the work of the Lord? Or that this is now to be our testimony for how we witness to them? Please - just one example would shut me up.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 02:46 AM
We're not trying to shut you up; we're also trying to understand where you're coming from as well; so please tell us what is so pagan about the gothic subculture?

ViolaSnapdragon
Aug 31st 2008, 03:09 AM
Wait a minute....I'd like to engage you further, if I may. I'm not trying to be judgemental, just inquisitive.

I had asked you how much of the goth scene deals with darkness, and you said that you pretty much just recognize it, and move on. Am I to assume that this means that you don't dwell on it? So, then, how much of your energy, would you say, is spent on dark things?

As such, if not all goth activities involve the dark side, what kinds of goth activities would be contributed to exploring the counterpoint, which is light? What percentage of your time is involves dwelling on things that are not dark?

Also, if I may ask.....how do most goths feel about Christianity as a way of life? Just curious

A few years back we had a monthly goth meetup in the big city here. We would meet in a pizza parlor, eat pizza, have drinks, and chat. The parlor was also open to the public as well and often those showing up to eat but not part of the meetup would chat with us. he conversations were mostly about normal stuff people talk about, i.e. life, work, music, etc. We would also hang out outside and laugh and joke around and chat. At one point a few guys got together and began "rapping" about how awesome they were, etc..all in good fun of course. There was good discussion, laughter, hugs, it was always a lot of fun. Unfortunately the meetups no longer go on as the man who hosted them has been busy with other things, The Amazing Race among them(yes, that guy).

The "scene" is not nearly as "doom and gloom" as people tend to think.

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 03:20 AM
Where are we instructed to take the things the pagans do and Christianize them for the work of the Lord? Or that this is now to be our testimony for how we witness to them? Please - just one example would shut me up.

How about 2 examples? :D (I'm just trying to lighten the thread up a bit):

I find it interesting that you used the word 'pagans.' In Acts 17, TWICE Paul used pagan Greek poetry that he knew the people at the Areopagus in Athens would be familiar with to describe Christ.

Both in Acts 17:28, "“For in him we live and move and have our being,” is a direct quote from Epimenides’ Cretica. “For we are also his offspring” is a direct quote from Aratus’ Phaenomena. If it wasn't beneath Paul to use the secular to communicate sacred truth, then why should we avoid doing the same today as long as we're upholding Scripture's moral standards? Missionaries contextualize the Gospel for those to whom they minister all the time, what's wrong with doing the same for Goths?

Kaninchen
Aug 31st 2008, 06:13 AM
Speaking as someone who was heavily into the gothic culture from pre-teen years to late teens, I don't happen to feel that goth and Christianity jive very well at all.

Goth fashion is one thing. If a person is only involved at that superficial level, then I don't suppose it would interfere with their religious faith at all. After all, many people find black and other darker colours slimming, simple and flattering. They match with anything! Expressing oneself through romantic Victorian dresses or cutesy plaid uniform-esque skirts can be kitsch and fun. Most people try on a number of different looks to try and discover what fits their personality, and if it's goth clothes for a while, it's probably not a big deal. However, if someone is really emeshed in the culture and symbolism, then I don't really understand how they can be operating as Christians. Self-injury was a HUGE part of the goth scene when I was into it, but Christians are told their bodies are temples, not billboards to cut or burn in order to advertise angst and pain. Depression, melancholia and tragedy are seen as beautiful and deep, as values to many people in that culture. There is a persistant belief that being unhappy means one has more depth and value than happy "shallow" people. If someone is of that mindset, I don't understand how they can be praising and thanking God for their blessings. I mean to say, if you're radiating dissatisfaction with life and getting in touch with your darker side, you're probably not doing a whole lot with God anymore. For me, I was not a Christian by any means during that time of my life. Christianity was scorned as ignorance when I was goth, and the bands I loved all taught that Christianity was for weak-minded, insipid people. It just doesn't match. I really don't think you can have goth and Christianity any more than you can have spaghetti on the Atkin's diet. They simply don't mix.

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 08:09 AM
I understand where you're coming from and agree with your assessment of the secular Goth scene. However, as some have tried to point out, there are significant differences between the secular and Christian goth scene. It's not exactly a one-for-one parallel between the two scenes. Most Christian goths seem to be aware of the extreme side of the culture and strive to avoid it. The ones I know have a deep reverence for the things of God and are very reflective about their faith. This tends to replace the depression and self-mutilation of the secular variety.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 08:41 AM
Indeed it does; while some who aren't apart of the Christian goth scene would say: "its just a group of Christians dressing goth"; there really is a scene in and of itself devoted to witnessing and interacting with the secular scene as much as fellowship with other Christian and Christians into the gothic scene.

Krav
Aug 31st 2008, 01:43 PM
Sure you were. But that's ok because we obviously have a different understanding of what it means to be saved out of idolatry. You seem to think it means that it ought to be expected that the front can be kept up because there is still something good to be gleaned from it, which is what your posts are trying to affirm. Dump the demonic and keep the trappings. Good luck with that.

Another thing to consider is that the goth "look" represents evil to 90% of people. When the average person sees someone decked out in goth on the street they think evil or vampire culture, etc. Like it or not, it is an evil look.

Look at the reaction from average people in this thread. They all say, "oh, that's all it is? I thought it was something else."

The point is, if you want to walk around and represent evil to a great majority of people then that is your choice. But, don't think you are excused because you hold some widely unknown definition of what you are.

I think you're being very shortsighted in this whole thing. I was reluctant to let certain things go, too. It's not easy, but it is worth it.

Elouise
Aug 31st 2008, 03:30 PM
Many can perceive that this world has a temporal nature that results in decay.
Goths tend to be a little more likely than people from other subcultures or even some cultures to ask awkward questions relating to 'what is this all about?'

Dark romanticism is liable to conceive of the notion of sin and mans fallen state based on observation of this world as a reality. The bible tells us darkness comes from the heart of man so perhaps goth is just more self aware than many other groups.
This does not mean Goth 'romanticise' darkness rather they are willing to face it and not be scared that it is there. This is a concept Paul wrestled with himself many times in his epistles.


Dark is an emotive label that carries differing meanings to different groups. Christians tend to take the translation of the words used in the bible to the English word darkness to mean the same as other uses of the same word. Hebrew and Greek and different languages to English and Uk and USA language use differ again.
For myself the dark; the apohatic, is a place I need to be with God. It is not a place most people would choose to be because it can be deeply challenging to be stripped to the bare bones.

Beauty can exist in decay the colour of autumn mushrooms breaking through rotten wood, the tears in the eyes of those grieving for those who they love who have died, the solitary seedling striving to grow on a cooling lava flow. It is simply a different perception on this world that leads people to care for those who lie unwanted unloved and unnoticed by those who seek perfection in this fallen world.

I would not even be a Christian if a young Christian goth had not suggested I try listening to Saviour Machine. They meet me where I was in the sort of club most Christians would not want to be seen dead in. If any 'nice' Christians had tried to do the same I suspect I would have at best slapped them into the middle of the next week and had them thrown out.
I was not simply a secular goth I was one of he few who was even more serious and dedicated to the left hand path and yes there is a big difference to the ideals of dark romantics and that which can be grouped under the label of dark spirituality. [Be cautious if you decide to 'google' that phrase for it will pull up a real mixed bag of metatags]


If I truly wanted to continue to represent 'evil' I could do so very easily by dressing up as Christians would prefer and joining the talk and tour circuits to sell a myth of Christ that would detour the most hurting from considering Christ.

I would prefer to wear black and continue to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty as Christs servant.

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 04:21 PM
Many can perceive that this world has a temporal nature that results in decay.
Goths tend to be a little more likely than people from other subcultures or even some cultures to ask awkward questions relating to 'what is this all about?'

Dark romanticism is liable to conceive of the notion of sin and mans fallen state based on observation of this world as a reality. The bible tells us darkness comes from the heart of man so perhaps goth is just more self aware than many other groups.
This does not mean Goth 'romanticise' darkness rather they are willing to face it and not be scared that it is there. This is a concept Paul wrestled with himself many times in his epistles.


Dark is an emotive label that carries differing meanings to different groups. Christians tend to take the translation of the words used in the bible to the English word darkness to mean the same as other uses of the same word. Hebrew and Greek and different languages to English and Uk and USA language use differ again.
For myself the dark; the apohatic, is a place I need to be with God. It is not a place most people would choose to be because it can be deeply challenging to be stripped to the bare bones.

Beauty can exist in decay the colour of autumn mushrooms breaking through rotten wood, the tears in the eyes of those grieving for those who they love who have died, the solitary seedling striving to grow on a cooling lava flow. It is simply a different perception on this world that leads people to care for those who lie unwanted unloved and unnoticed by those who seek perfection in this fallen world.

I would not even be a Christian if a young Christian goth had not suggested I try listening to Saviour Machine. They meet me where I was in the sort of club most Christians would not want to be seen dead in. If any 'nice' Christians had tried to do the same I suspect I would have at best slapped them into the middle of the next week and had them thrown out.
I was not simply a secular goth I was one of he few who was even more serious and dedicated to the left hand path and yes there is a big difference to the ideals of dark romantics and that which can be grouped under the label of dark spirituality. [Be cautious if you decide to 'google' that phrase for it will pull up a real mixed bag of metatags]


If I truly wanted to continue to represent 'evil' I could do so very easily by dressing up as Christians would prefer and joining the talk and tour circuits to sell a myth of Christ that would detour the most hurting from considering Christ.

I would prefer to wear black and continue to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty as Christs servant.


Great explanation and testimony! The thing to remember is that traditional Churches ARE NOT going to reach unsaved goths any more than they do metalheads. Their whole approach to evangelism creates barriers between both themselves and people like this, it doesn't facilitate bridge-buildng. I've attended traditional Churches all my life, and I know firsthand that they're incapable of reaching this generation for Christ.

I've taught kids from this generation (yes, I'm an educator), and seeing how they act and relate to others shows me that there's no way traditional Churches will ever reach them with the Gospel. While I'm a committed Reformed Christian, I'm not naive in believing that my tradition will even be relevant in evangelizing this generation or subsequent ones.

I listen to The White Horse Inn, a weekly Reformed broadcast featuring Michael Horton, Kim Riddlebarger and their 2 lesser cronies. While I agree with much of what they say, I believe that they're deceiving themselves in some areas ultimately. It's become fashionable for Reformed Christians to attack the Emerging Church, whether it's Horton and his crew, John MacArthur or D.A. Carson. Some of their criticism is valid, especially with regard to Brian Maclaren's syncretism/quasi-universalism. However, their attacks on the Emergent Church's ecclesiology and worship style is not so well-founded or Scriptural. I belive that the movement's current excesses will taper off and go away. That's how things have happened when other major changes within the Church took place. As a trained historian and theologian myself, I realize several things:

1) The present generation of believers tends to resist change in any form, even when its doctrine is left intact, and tends to attack the ideas of the next generation in an effort to protect and preserve its comfort zones.
2) Jesus Christ did not found his Church upon man-made creeds or styles of worship. They will not endure forever like Scripture itself.
3) God will bring about any necessary changes within his Church to ensure that it endures for the next generation of Christians, even if he has to do so forcibly by grabbing a jaded bunch of kicking and screaming traditionalists by the proverbial hair in order to do so.
4) God uses Scripture to speak to his Church in many different ways and at different times that fit the current cultural scenario.

The Church will continue to be the Church. It will still uphold Scripture and proclaim the Gospel, but the way it does those things most likely will look much different than it does today. The current way of doing Church is clearly on the way out. Some traditional Churches are finally starting to admit to this fact. I expect to see drastic ecclesiological paradigm shifts in the coming years. The Emergent 'house Church' approach is the next phase in God's preservation of his Church, mark my words. That's who will reach both the current and future generations with the Gospel. I also believe that it is more likely to sustain itself through persecution if it's structured that way. God is clearly bringing change to his Church in a major way.

Mograce2U
Aug 31st 2008, 04:41 PM
How about 2 examples? :D (I'm just trying to lighten the thread up a bit):

I find it interesting that you used the word 'pagans.' In Acts 17, TWICE Paul used pagan Greek poetry that he knew the people at the Areopagus in Athens would be familiar with to describe Christ.

Both in Acts 17:28, "“For in him we live and move and have our being,” is a direct quote from Epimenides’ Cretica. “For we are also his offspring” is a direct quote from Aratus’ Phaenomena. If it wasn't beneath Paul to use the secular to communicate sacred truth, then why should we avoid doing the same today as long as we're upholding Scripture's moral standards? Missionaries contextualize the Gospel for those to whom they minister all the time, what's wrong with doing the same for Goths?I agree that is a good example. Paul's appeal by using their poetry was to point out the truth which they claimed to believe that God was their Creator. He then used that point to show that their idols were the wrong expression for that truth, and that Jesus was the true image of God. And he went right to the resurrection to show them that Jesus was the one who would judge them for their idolatry. Paul who no doubt dressed the part of a Pharisee or Jewish Rabbi, made no pretense that he believed in their superstitions.

Now can you show me how the secular Goth holds to that truth about God in their poetry and beliefs? Or where you might begin to evangelize them?

scourge39
Aug 31st 2008, 05:33 PM
Now can you show me how the secular Goth holds to that truth about God in their poetry and beliefs? Or where you might begin to evangelize them?

I would start with their mistrust of human institutions (i.e. government, some apects of organized religion, etc.) and discuss how those those things in some ways do reflect the inherent fallenness and depravity of humanity that is spoken of in Scripture. This is a perfect segue for presenting the Gospel and how Christ rescues us in our fallen state. Why Reformed Christians, who accentuate humanity's fallenness and depravity more than any other segment of the Church, haven't tried to evangelize this segment of society on this basis boggles my mind. As for their poetry or song lyrics, I would talk about death as it's described in Scripture, particularly regarding Christ's atonement. Discussion of his shed blood and its significance particularly makes for gret discussion with goths. Christian gothic artists have a real gift for depicting it very powerfully in their art, poetry and song lyrics.

Elouise
Aug 31st 2008, 07:38 PM
As my time allows I try to read regarding ideas from emerging church. Some of the concepts do seem to come from ways the early church tried to live in a pagan and secular culture that became submerged over time as Christianity grew in prominance in Europe. Other ideas appear to be more human in origin and some are plain not of God or of human desire and need to be confronted as such.

In the UK traditional expressions of church are seen as irrelevant, alien and out of touch with the secular society they struggle to exist within. I do not ask for compromise of scripture what I ask for is the church (as a whole) to wake up and see the relaity of the situation it is a small society within a far larger society.

A none christian goth cannot hold to the truth about God for they do not know the truth. Christian goths do and do.
Most none christian goths are spiritual seekers looking for 'something' but unsure as to what this may be and this is what comes through in their poetry, their music and their art.

If you wish to evangelise them then first learn how to really listen to them.

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 09:03 PM
From my experiance with secular scene goths; they are very smart, very intelligent and at times put on the facade of having found "something" in life to hold onto, yet just beneath the surface of this is pure and utter saddness, confusion and at times anger over this life, the next, and purpose in life. They're so hungry for answers that Christians of today are mostly so unprepared to answer or even know how to answer them that they quickly move onto paganism or agnosticism or stay within what they have clung to up till that point still.

Krav
Aug 31st 2008, 09:59 PM
I understand where you're coming from and agree with your assessment of the secular Goth scene. However, as some have tried to point out, there are significant differences between the secular and Christian goth scene. It's not exactly a one-for-one parallel between the two scenes. Most Christian goths seem to be aware of the extreme side of the culture and strive to avoid it. The ones I know have a deep reverence for the things of God and are very reflective about their faith. This tends to replace the depression and self-mutilation of the secular variety.

Why work so hard to avoid certain aspects of a scene while still trying to be part of it?

Why not just come out of it and be one of His?

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 10:03 PM
First off, we are His, secondly its not that we're trying so hard to avoid aspects of the subculture its simply that we do not partake in them as secular goths do; its not about sanatizing a culture its about simply being in it but not of it.

Krav
Aug 31st 2008, 10:08 PM
First off, we are His, secondly its not that we're trying so hard to avoid aspects of the subculture its simply that we do not partake in them as secular goths do; its not about sanatizing a culture its about simply being in it but not of it.

Well, we're "in the entire world, but not of it." Now the question is should we identify with a specific subset of this fallen world? Shouldn't we just identify with Him?

XianGothDude
Aug 31st 2008, 10:14 PM
Well see therein lies logic I don't enitrely understand with the way you word it; its a subculture of people, music and fashion; nothing more or less. I suppose if I was into sports or country music or gospel hymnal subculture music (yeah that was a joke) you wouldn't really have a problem with it. I'm not trying to be rude but what are you geting at exactly?

ServantofTruth
Aug 31st 2008, 10:27 PM
For me personally everything comes second. Or rather everything is seen through the prism of faith.

I support a football team - Liverpool - in the UK. I have a football shirt, but the name on the back is not mine, or a 'star' player but God's name YHWH.

I'm not into music, more current affairs, reginal and national news. Politics a little. But again i see the stories and political questions through my faith.

God's Will is first, through my study of his Word, the bible daily.

Even if it was gospel music, or which church, or this web site - I identify myself as a biblical Christian alone. Everything else comes a very poor second.

I don't single out Goths, i actually don't know much about them. It's the reverse i single out Jesus Christ and nothing of man is put alongside it or even close.

Like i said much earlier on this topic - the word Christian needs no word added. No barrier between every brother & sister in the family. No cause for misunderstanding or another to stumble. Love SofTy.

Kaninchen
Sep 1st 2008, 04:53 AM
I understand where you're coming from and agree with your assessment of the secular Goth scene. However, as some have tried to point out, there are significant differences between the secular and Christian goth scene. It's not exactly a one-for-one parallel between the two scenes. Most Christian goths seem to be aware of the extreme side of the culture and strive to avoid it. The ones I know have a deep reverence for the things of God and are very reflective about their faith. This tends to replace the depression and self-mutilation of the secular variety.


Indeed it does; while some who aren't apart of the Christian goth scene would say: "its just a group of Christians dressing goth"; there really is a scene in and of itself devoted to witnessing and interacting with the secular scene as much as fellowship with other Christian and Christians into the gothic scene.

Really, I have never heard about nor witnessed a separate Christian goth scene where the values and beliefs of the Christian tradition were maintained as important, and I've known quite a lot of people and been to a lot of different places in the world, and was into the whole goth thing for a significant amount of time, not just a year or two. I did meet several people who were Christians upon getting involved with the goth scene. Some were stronger in their faith than others, but they all professed a belief in God and an interest in Christianity; they weren't just people who had Christian parents, like I was. All of them got lost along the way. All of them ended up involved in self-harm. Most incorporated elements of Wicca or various pagan traditions into their lives, even in the rare cases when they continued going to church. A couple still say they believe in God now, but it's half-hearted, and the way they acted when involved in goth and even now for some of them wasn't Christlike. All I can say is, I had friends who called themselves Christians, who went to Siouxsie Thrill Kill Kult and NIN and Marilyn Manson concerts with me (yes I know the bands are different now), who cut, who played with ouija boards and tarot cards and who threw parties in cemeteries, and not a one of them is an active Christian today. If there is a separate scene going on, then it's a different situation from the one I knew, but I'm not assuming most Christian people who get involved with goth are going to end up in it without being touched by the darker elements of goth as well.

Krav
Sep 1st 2008, 03:44 PM
Really, I have never heard about nor witnessed a separate Christian goth scene where the values and beliefs of the Christian tradition were maintained as important, and I've known quite a lot of people and been to a lot of different places in the world, and was into the whole goth thing for a significant amount of time, not just a year or two. I did meet several people who were Christians upon getting involved with the goth scene. Some were stronger in their faith than others, but they all professed a belief in God and an interest in Christianity; they weren't just people who had Christian parents, like I was. All of them got lost along the way. All of them ended up involved in self-harm. Most incorporated elements of Wicca or various pagan traditions into their lives, even in the rare cases when they continued going to church. A couple still say they believe in God now, but it's half-hearted, and the way they acted when involved in goth and even now for some of them wasn't Christlike. All I can say is, I had friends who called themselves Christians, who went to Siouxsie Thrill Kill Kult and NIN and Marilyn Manson concerts with me (yes I know the bands are different now), who cut, who played with ouija boards and tarot cards and who threw parties in cemeteries, and not a one of them is an active Christian today. If there is a separate scene going on, then it's a different situation from the one I knew, but I'm not assuming most Christian people who get involved with goth are going to end up in it without being touched by the darker elements of goth as well.

Can man scoop fire in his lap and not get burned? I guess that is the question you answer above.

It's as simple as "bad company corrupts good habits." If we hang around the world we will become like the world. Simple as that. If we immerse ourselves in probably the darkest and most sinister of all worldly movements then it will surely have its toll on us.

When we hear "Christian goth music" we have to ask ourselves "where does the inspiration for this music come from? Are these bands former goths who turned Christian and brought their goth experience into their new music?

All of those bands you mentioned are horribly sinister, especially My Life w/ the Thrill Kill Kult. You don't even need to listen to their lyrics to feel the haunting darkness of their music. It is Satanic to the very core. I know, because I used to listen to them and even saw them live.

Now, please tell me how we are to sanitize it to a level where it meets this:

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Elouise
Sep 1st 2008, 04:09 PM
In the case of Saviour Machine the inspiration is from the scriptures.
:D

scourge39
Sep 1st 2008, 04:12 PM
Can man scoop fire in his lap and not get burned? I guess that is the question you answer above.

It's as simple as "bad company corrupts good habits." If we hang around the world we will become like the world. Simple as that. If we immerse ourselves in probably the darkest and most sinister of all worldly movements then it will surely have its toll on us.

When we hear "Christian goth music" we have to ask ourselves "where does the inspiration for this music come from? Are these bands former goths who turned Christian and brought their goth experience into their new music?

All of those bands you mentioned are horribly sinister, especially My Life w/ the Thrill Kill Kult. You don't even need to listen to their lyrics to feel the haunting darkness of their music. It is Satanic to the very core. I know, because I used to listen to them and even saw them live.

Now, please tell me how we are to sanitize it to a level where it meets this:

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

All of those passages are being used out of context. You cannot use Scripture to support the notion that God is a respecter of certain musical genres, condoning some while condemning others. Lyrical messages, not major versus minor chords and other subjective elements that should be filed under 'Personal Preferences', are what makes music good or bad. Listen to the FREE download of The Eternal Chapter's album that I posted earlier on this thread, then we'll talk. You have no frame of reference for discussing Christian gothic music until you've actually listened to some of it. You're using the same approach with this topic as all the anti-Christian rock crusaders of the 1980's. We're beyond that rhetoric, with the same Scriptures being used as a wax nose to support an argument that really has no genuine Biblical basis.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 05:07 PM
A few years back we had a monthly goth meetup in the big city here. We would meet in a pizza parlor, eat pizza, have drinks, and chat. The parlor was also open to the public as well and often those showing up to eat but not part of the meetup would chat with us. he conversations were mostly about normal stuff people talk about, i.e. life, work, music, etc. We would also hang out outside and laugh and joke around and chat. At one point a few guys got together and began "rapping" about how awesome they were, etc..all in good fun of course. There was good discussion, laughter, hugs, it was always a lot of fun. Unfortunately the meetups no longer go on as the man who hosted them has been busy with other things, The Amazing Race among them(yes, that guy).

The "scene" is not nearly as "doom and gloom" as people tend to think.

That sounds like a lot of fun :)

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 05:21 PM
Great explanation and testimony! The thing to remember is that traditional Churches ARE NOT going to reach unsaved goths any more than they do metalheads. Their whole approach to evangelism creates barriers between both themselves and people like this, it doesn't facilitate bridge-buildng. I've attended traditional Churches all my life, and I know firsthand that they're incapable of reaching this generation for Christ.

I really, really hope that you're being general here, and not referring to people on an individual level, because it really sounds like you're saying that someone like me, who holds to a more traditional aesthetic, is incapable of reaching anyone in the goth subculture for Christ.

Are you saying that, because of my appearance (which is more Baywatch than goth), I would be incapable of reaching someone who dresses in black and embraces the goth persona?

If so, that is pretty sad :cry:

Mograce2U
Sep 1st 2008, 05:34 PM
All of those passages are being used out of context. You cannot use Scripture to support the notion that God is a respecter of certain musical genres, condoning some while condemning others. Lyrical messages, not major versus minor chords and other subjective elements that should be filed under 'Personal Preferences', are what makes music good or bad. Listen to the FREE download of The Eternal Chapter's album that I posted earlier on this thread, then we'll talk. You have no frame of reference for discussing Christian gothic music until you've actually listened to some of it. You're using the same approach with this topic as all the anti-Christian rock crusaders of the 1980's. We're beyond that rhetoric, with the same Scriptures being used as a wax nose to support an argument that really has no genuine Biblical basis.I finally found the link in post #112 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1769698&postcount=112)

They have a text file of the lyrics for that album - whose author is now dead.
First a question - how did Jacob die do you know?

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 05:42 PM
I would start with their mistrust of human institutions (i.e. government, some apects of organized religion, etc.) and discuss how those those things in some ways do reflect the inherent fallenness and depravity of humanity that is spoken of in Scripture. This is a perfect segue for presenting the Gospel and how Christ rescues us in our fallen state. Why Reformed Christians, who accentuate humanity's fallenness and depravity more than any other segment of the Church, haven't tried to evangelize this segment of society on this basis boggles my mind. As for their poetry or song lyrics, I would talk about death as it's described in Scripture, particularly regarding Christ's atonement. Discussion of his shed blood and its significance particularly makes for gret discussion with goths. Christian gothic artists have a real gift for depicting it very powerfully in their art, poetry and song lyrics.


This is really great information....thank you. That's awesome!!! It sounds like the Lord has really given you a gift, and proper wisdom, to reach these folks.

What about the fact that we are to be "crucified with Christ"....in other words, putting to death the old man within us in order to generate the Spirit of Christ within us?

It's definitely all about the approach. A few months ago, myself and a group of people did an outreach at a BDSM dungeon in Hollywood. We set up a table and passed out Bibles, CDs, and other things, and spoke to the people about Jesus and our testimonies. Even so, we didn't just go in there with the typical "repent and be saved" approach....since these people were into domination and power exchange, we took on the angle of being bondservants for Christ, how we were once slaves to sin, we are now slaves to righteousness. We also passed out Bondage Breaker books, as well as Bibles. Using this approach sparked more interest, and we were able to use it as a launching pad for elaborating on the Gospel.

There were quite a few people who were into Satanism and the occult, and just not receptive to our message, but those that were appreciated the fact that we could go beyond the typical "You're a sinner" approach.....and you're right. Many of them were turned off by Christianity because of what they saw as a hypocritical, self-righteous element, which is why it's important to explain to them that it's Christ's righteousness, and not our own....and that the Bible condemns self-righteousness.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 05:55 PM
From my experiance with secular scene goths; they are very smart, very intelligent and at times put on the facade of having found "something" in life to hold onto, yet just beneath the surface of this is pure and utter saddness, confusion and at times anger over this life, the next, and purpose in life. They're so hungry for answers that Christians of today are mostly so unprepared to answer or even know how to answer them that they quickly move onto paganism or agnosticism or stay within what they have clung to up till that point still.

Hi, Xian;

You're right....and it's very sad, but that's what happens when man seeks the truth through his own wisdom rather than God's. It's like this in all sub-cultures, though, not just goth. The thing is, there is a truth beyond any human truth, and any truth that does not correspond with that truth is a lie....this is God's truth.

Paganism....agnosticism....these have been around for years. They have just changed forms.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 06:01 PM
Well, we're "in the entire world, but not of it." Now the question is should we identify with a specific subset of this fallen world? Shouldn't we just identify with Him?


Are you sure you are not talking about the church rather that Christ, my friend? The Bible tells us specifically how we are to identify ourselves with Christ.....by taking up our cross daily, and following Him. That is how we identify with Christ.

We do not have to identify with the traditonal church to identify with Christ. Remember, in the body of Christ, there is neither male nor famale, Greek nor Jew, etc.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 06:05 PM
When we hear "Christian goth music" we have to ask ourselves "where does the inspiration for this music come from? Are these bands former goths who turned Christian and brought their goth experience into their new music?

Post #110, by scourge:



Gothic Christian music in particular is very orchestral/ liturgical-sounding. Personally, it's good background music for Biblical contemplation and meditation. It's very conducive to creating a reverent, worshipful atmosphere. It's not all upbeat and 'happy clappy' like some modern praise choruses, but then again, neither are many of the Psalms.

Mograce2U
Sep 1st 2008, 06:37 PM
Welder4Christ,


Originally Posted by Krav
When we hear "Christian goth music" we have to ask ourselves "where does the inspiration for this music come from? Are these bands former goths who turned Christian and brought their goth experience into their new music?

Post #110, by scourge:

Quote:
Gothic Christian music in particular is very orchestral/ liturgical-sounding. Personally, it's good background music for Biblical contemplation and meditation. It's very conducive to creating a reverent, worshipful atmosphere. It's not all upbeat and 'happy clappy' like some modern praise choruses, but then again, neither are many of the Psalms.
The biggest difference between the Psalms and the lyrics we find in an album like the Eternal Chapter referenced above, is that David and the psalmists ALWAYS bring forth their hope in God, regardless of the misery which may have brought about their initial lament. True praise and worship for the hope the psalmist has in God is missing from those lyrics Jacob penned. He can't seem to get past his sorrow for sin and death and come out expressing his hope in Christ and the glory that awaits him at all. The cross does not end with the grave but with the resurrection. In that we can REJOICE IN LIFE, and not mourn as those who have no hope in death.

A true lament does not leave one with doubt about where his hope is found as though there really is none to be had. Merely parroting words like "faith" and "grace" leaves one without any idea of what those ideas even mean. Which many of the CCM artists are guilty of too as they try to express their "love affair" with Christ but sound as though they have some boyfriend in mind!

Krav
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:14 AM
Are you sure you are not talking about the church rather that Christ, my friend? The Bible tells us specifically how we are to identify ourselves with Christ.....by taking up our cross daily, and following Him. That is how we identify with Christ.

We do not have to identify with the traditonal church to identify with Christ. Remember, in the body of Christ, there is neither male nor famale, Greek nor Jew, etc.

hi, welder.

that passage refers to God's impartiality in dealing with us and that we are all on equal footing, regardless of whether or not we were born "under the law" or without it.

Likewise, women were esteemed lower than men, but in the Church this ought not to be so.

I don't think it means that as christians we blend our worldly identity into our new Christian identity. Rather, as new creations on Christ all things are to become new.

Krav
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:21 AM
Post #110, by scourge:

I know the music very well from an experiential point of view. I don't need to be told what it is and is not. I've tasted it, personally.

What it comes down to is that these "Christian goth" bands perhaps genuinely became Christians, but instead of all things becoming new, they brought the old things and mingled them with their new life in Christ.

IMO, you will never fully renounce the former life, along with its lusts, as long as you give it a stay of execution in your new life.

The Holy Spirit is going to have to convince here, not me. When I got saved God immediately led me to renounce the things of the world. To me that was my worldly music (style and all), manner of dress, bodybuilding magazines, etc. I took on a whole new life. The life of Christ. And, having been totally unencumbered with the trappings of the world I was in total freedom to live for Christ.

I think to do otherwise is really robbing yourself of the new life in Christ as it is meant to be lived.

XianGothDude
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:17 AM
And what of bands: Saviour Machine, Virgin Black and The Awakening, have you looked at the lyrics for these bands?

scourge39
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:32 AM
Welder4Christ,

The biggest difference between the Psalms and the lyrics we find in an album like the Eternal Chapter referenced above, is that David and the psalmists ALWAYS bring forth their hope in God, regardless of the misery which may have brought about their initial lament. True praise and worship for the hope the psalmist has in God is missing from those lyrics Jacob penned. He can't seem to get past his sorrow for sin and death and come out expressing his hope in Christ and the glory that awaits him at all. The cross does not end with the grave but with the resurrection. In that we can REJOICE IN LIFE, and not mourn as those who have no hope in death.

A true lament does not leave one with doubt about where his hope is found as though there really is none to be had. Merely parroting words like "faith" and "grace" leaves one without any idea of what those ideas even mean. Which many of the CCM artists are guilty of too as they try to express their "love affair" with Christ but sound as though they have some boyfriend in mind!

The Psalms do not ALWAYS paint uplifting pictures. They express the full spectrum of emotions and don't always resolve the situation being addressed. No single Psalm or song can encompass the sum total of the Christian life or doctrine. Your opinions on this topic would carry much more weight if they showed clear evidence that you've thought them through on your own instead of simply regurgitating the shallow opinions of Steve Camp and John MacArthur. I've read everything those two have written decrying CCM, contemporary worship music, etc. The issue for them and the hosts of the White Horse Inn as well has very little to do with wanting to hear Jesus' name mentioned more frequently and everything to do with the fact that most of it doesn't contain the Reformed leanings that they wish it did. Even the stylistic arguments and the claim that it's all corporately-driven to 'sell Jesus' are not the REAL reason they attack it. In fact, Michael Horton is a bit of a hypocrite in that he'll bash the style of contemporary worship music on his broadcasts while simultaneously using segue music that is the same style as much of the modern P & W music only with Reformed content in the lyrics. I used to be an Arminian and now I'm Reformed, so I know how both camps think. If the lyrics had blatantly Reformed leanings like Out of the Grey, Michael Card and some others, those men wouldn't be complaining about it, and no one is going to convince me otherwise. If Horton, MacArthur, Riddlebarger and a host of others would simply admit that that's their underlying gripe with most of today's Christian music, I'm sure that people would have more respect for them and at least listen to their dissenting opinions. The fact that they bury that gripe under a mountain of proof texts, Church History, sanctimonious platitudes and, in some cases, ad hominem attacks, is very disingenuous. Just so you'll realize that not all Reformed Christians are of like mind on this topic, I strongly recommend that you read John M. Frame's book, Contemporary Worship Music: A Biblical Defense. Even if you disagree with him, at least you'll get another perspective from someone who is both a theologian and a musician. The fact that you at least examined The Eternal Chapter indicates that you're not closed-minded, which is commendable. I respect the hosts of WHI greatly, but I strongly reject the notion that in order to respect someone, you have to agree with them on virtually every point. We live by every word that proceeds from God's mouth, not James Dobson's, John MacArthur's or anyone else's. I find it highly unbiblical to place leaders on pedestals and treat their words as virtually infallible as though they're spoken ex cathedra. Some Christian leaders know implicitly that some of their followers/listeners do this very thing, and yet fail to address it. When Christians indiscriminately swallow everything that their favorite leaders say, teach, or preach, it shows their inability to make their own Scripturally-informed decisions and simply use the minds that God gave them.

I fell into the trap of ripping on CCM non-stop while in seminary. I came to the conclusion that songwriter does not equal trained Biblical interpreter or theologian. That's too high of an expectation to place on lay musicians just because they happen to be in the public eye. I'm friends with many Christian artists who represent several musical genres. Your 'love affair' comment fails to account for the fact that Christians can only express their faith to the extent that they understand it. Songwriters are at various stages of spiritual growth. As much as I love Biblical studies and theology, I don't expect every musician who names Christ as savior to write lyrics that are essentially a theological treatise. Most Christians do not, would not, and could not express their faith in that way. Some are very theologically-minded and their lyrics show it. Some are really into theology and in-depth Biblical study. Others write about their life experiences. Just because someone is a Christian does not mean they're confined to writing explicitly Christian lyrics that are somehow tied to Scripture. They have the freedom to explore any topic they choose. I know many in Reformed circles would like all parishioners to be quasi-theologians, but only God can place within them a desire to know both him and his Word more deeply. Just because one doesn't devour Calvin or drool over Luther does not make them inferior Christians. Even Reformed Christians act like practicing Arminians in this areas, as though they hold the answers and the power to change the Church. Instead of lamenting the state of the Church 24/7, there comes a time when we must all realize that we have no say or control over it. The Church is in exactly the condition God ordained it to be in at this point in history, whether good or bad. He's still sovereign over it despite its current state and it will become exactly what he intends for it to be.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:48 AM
I know the music very well from an experiential point of view. I don't need to be told what it is and is not. I've tasted it, personally.

What it comes down to is that these "Christian goth" bands perhaps genuinely became Christians, but instead of all things becoming new, they brought the old things and mingled them with their new life in Christ.

IMO, you will never fully renounce the former life, along with its lusts, as long as you give it a stay of execution in your new life.

The Holy Spirit is going to have to convince here, not me. When I got saved God immediately led me to renounce the things of the world. To me that was my worldly music (style and all), manner of dress, bodybuilding magazines, etc. I took on a whole new life. The life of Christ. And, having been totally unencumbered with the trappings of the world I was in total freedom to live for Christ.

I think to do otherwise is really robbing yourself of the new life in Christ as it is meant to be lived.

Yes, I can see your point....I guess it would just depend on which elements are prioritized.

Again, this is a very bewildering topic for me, because I have not witnessed anything personally of the Christian goth scene...I have never been involved with it, nor were any of my friends.... so I really have no place to judge. I am just here to learn.

The thing I am most confounded by, though, is this....if these people are being reached for Christ, then wouldn't such a witness be a positive? I guess I could understand if their dark, dreary elements were diminishing the authenticity of the Gospel message, but if Jesus is being preached and worshipped and loved, then I don't see what the controversy is.

Again, I have no personal experience to speak of. I am just here as a learner.


As far as the music is concerned, I don't think it's fair to say that one's Christian experience is less valid than another's just because the music doesn't fit a specific mold. Truthfully, my favorite band in the world has Mormon frontman, and it was his lyrics that drew me into a new-found faith in Christ. I find the music of the Mormon Tabernacle choir extremely uplifting and praiseworthy, as well as Mexican Baroque. Neither of these fit the mold of typical Christian listening fare.

Am I on the right track here re: the point you were making? All I'm saying is that if it allows you to connect with God, and worship Him in a way that is worthy of Him, then I don't see the harm.

XianGothDude
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bi7R8-hXoQ&feature=related

wondercoolguy
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:26 PM
The Holy Spirit is going to have to convince here, not me. When I got saved God immediately led me to renounce the things of the world. To me that was my worldly music (style and all), manner of dress, bodybuilding magazines, etc. I took on a whole new life. The life of Christ. And, having been totally unencumbered with the trappings of the world I was in total freedom to live for Christ.


Krav
The whole book of Galatians is basically Paul rebuking legalism. Saying that once you get saved you have to go through certain changes to me is legalistic and detouring to the Christianity. Romans Chapter 14 needs to be read by all and understood; personal conviction. Personal Conviction wheater it be your bodybuilding Magazines, My World of Warcraft, or someone's outward appearance (Goth, Punk, or Suit/Tie). IMO If you are using it to furthur the gospel in the most fundamental way (Jesus dying for your sins) why not?

I am so thankful for Saviour Machine and their message. I can't remember if some one posted in this thread or another. But Saviour Machine is the reason they came to know Christ. All the years of touring they did was worth it all because of that guy/girl who got saved. Was he/she the only one probably not but even it they were it was all worth it. I found them about six months ago through a friend and haven't put them down since. Isn't the point converting the lost, by any means?

Elouise
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:32 PM
That was me Wondercoolguy.

At that point I had made up my mind to take up one of the offers I had open to join a theistic satanist group and continue with the Left Hand Path rather than continue to stomach the crumbling facade of niceness and its vindictive aderance to what the church decress people should be like that only ends up excluding and marginalizing those who seek Christ.

Saviour Machine were the only ones able to speak my language so I could hear and yes Eric knows of this for I told him so.

wondercoolguy
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:46 PM
That was me Wondercoolguy.


Amen, Saviour Machine by any normal standards would probably be looked down on because of the presentation it made. Isn't the point of life to Praise God, Study, and convert? Saviour Machine, Third Day, and Michael English are all three forums of Christian music all different but share one purpose, Praising God, right?

Goths have their place just like straight laced Christians as well. As long as their purpose to convert their brethen to Christ. You can complain all day about other factions of Christianity but if you're not converting or attempting to then whats the point in being Goth, Punk, Suit/Tie, or anything?

Mograce2U
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:04 PM
scourge39, #158 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1772490&postcount=158)
I don't see how my mention of the psalms led you into that tirade. My opinion about music comes from what I hear. Worship music praises God and this the psalms do, as should spiritual songs and hymns. A lovely song is not the goal if there is nothing in it that edifies and reveals something of the glory of God and our hope in Christ. That link you provided earlier fails to meet the mark. The songwriter only laments his dreary life and his hope in Christ remains an enigma to the one who listens to him.

Elouise
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:14 PM
I think SM point towards were God can be found...through Christ and I thank God they did!

When someone who is hurt comes to me it does not matter that I am wearing what matters is a respond with Christ like compassion to their need.

This morning I bandaged the hand of a poor soul who had been bitten by a dog whilst looking for her cat, the others she had asked to help her after she had been bitten had seen the blood and run off. This is supposed to be a 'nice' majority christian area to live in too.:crazy:

It did not matter that I was wearing head to toe in black and looked like draculas daughter without the aid of any make up thanks to migraine. What mattered was I saw her need took her to my home bandaged her hand and held her whilst she cried when I broke the news her cat had been found dead last week.
How I live and how I treat other people matters far more than what I wear, the music I listen too or the subculture that is my 'home'.
If I do not apply my faith my words mean nothing.
If I do not treat my neighbour with love even when my neighbour is diferant to me I have failed to grasp important parts of the message of Christ.
If I do not love my brother in Christ even when they are diffearnt to me I am lying to myself over my love of Christ.

If I meet a weaker brother then yes I tone down but I am not going to wear a mask and pretend I am a someone I am not either for that would be like lying.

Elouise
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:32 PM
Mograce.

Some psalms are utterly human and they are written by a Hebrew people who looked forward to a messiah also compalined like mad and asked for awful things to befall those who they saw as oppressing them. Christians read the psalms with New testament eyes.

Xtiangoth dude.

You tube have posted the wrong song title.
That is not ' The Lamb' that is Legend 1:1
The lyrics are as follows and are based on Revelation Chapter 1


I will show you what must take place,
I who speak to you am He.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
I am the first and the last, I am alive.
I am the blood of the lamb, I am life.

I am the son of man,
The first born of the dead.
I have the keys of life and death.

I am why a legend is born.

I am coming with the the clouds of heaven
And every eye shall see
Through the darkness of the night.
I am the light of the world, come to see,
I am the king of kings, follow me.

He who believes in me
Shall live beyond the dead
For I am with you until the end.

I am why a legend is born.

A legend is born

the kingdom of heaven is surely at hand
The kingdom of heaven is surely at hand
reprised

the world and all of its History has been moving toward is upon us is upon us


Mograce I fail to see how this is about a dreay life, it is about Jesus Christ comming again.

wondercoolguy
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:21 PM
thats like my favorite song EVER!!!!! I love Legend/Lamb

scourge39
Sep 2nd 2008, 11:16 PM
Mograce.

Some psalms are utterly human and they are written by a Hebrew people who looked forward to a messiah also compalined like mad and asked for awful things to befall those who they saw as oppressing them. Christians read the psalms with New testament eyes.

Xtiangoth dude.

You tube have posted the wrong song title.
That is not ' The Lamb' that is Legend 1:1
The lyrics are as follows and are based on Revelation Chapter 1



Mograce I fail to see how this is about a dreay life, it is about Jesus Christ comming again.



Mograce wasn't referring to Saviour Machine's 'The Lamb.' He was referring to the lyrics to songs by the Eternal Chapter, a now-defunct Christian Goth band from the UK. I posted the link to a free download of their album earlier in the thread.

Mograce, I wasn't thrown into a tirade by your mentioning the Psalms at all. I was merely responding to a common argument as fully and honestly as possible. I've heard the arguments from every side of the 'worship wars' and I see overgeneralization, excessive proof texting and opinion touted as Gospel coming from the traditional camp. The truth is, the traditional/liturgical/Reformed camp lost that battle. Now all they're doing is whining about it. MacArthur, Horton, and the rest need to simply admit it and move on to other topics. It's getting to the point where Horton & his crew particularly need to rename their broadcast The Dead Horse Inn. They keep harping on everything that's wrong with the Church NONSTOP instead of just teaching and explaining Reformed theology to people who have little understanding of it's content. More non-Reformed people might actually care what they say if they would simply promote their tradition without constantly badgering everyone else's.

XianGothDude
Sep 2nd 2008, 11:58 PM
The reason I posted the link to Legend I:I/The Lamb was because of the view that "if you still like this sort of music style you haven't let go of the world yet" ect.

Krav
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:01 AM
Yes, I can see your point....I guess it would just depend on which elements are prioritized.

Again, this is a very bewildering topic for me, because I have not witnessed anything personally of the Christian goth scene...I have never been involved with it, nor were any of my friends.... so I really have no place to judge. I am just here to learn.

The thing I am most confounded by, though, is this....if these people are being reached for Christ, then wouldn't such a witness be a positive? I guess I could understand if their dark, dreary elements were diminishing the authenticity of the Gospel message, but if Jesus is being preached and worshipped and loved, then I don't see what the controversy is.

Again, I have no personal experience to speak of. I am just here as a learner.


As far as the music is concerned, I don't think it's fair to say that one's Christian experience is less valid than another's just because the music doesn't fit a specific mold. Truthfully, my favorite band in the world has Mormon frontman, and it was his lyrics that drew me into a new-found faith in Christ. I find the music of the Mormon Tabernacle choir extremely uplifting and praiseworthy, as well as Mexican Baroque. Neither of these fit the mold of typical Christian listening fare.

Am I on the right track here re: the point you were making? All I'm saying is that if it allows you to connect with God, and worship Him in a way that is worthy of Him, then I don't see the harm.

I guess my disagreement with it would be that being a "Christian goth" implies to "non-Christian goths" that you can just add Jesus "to the mix" and continue doing what you're doing. To me, it turns Jesus' words "follow Me" on their head.

There doesn't seem to be a new creation or new life. Rather, it's the same old life without a few of the old habits.

I don't know. In cases like this I try to lean on God's grace. But, one thing I know is that the gothic dress focuses people's attention on you and not on Christ.

Does the Bible say you can't have a mohawk (I know that's not necessarily goth)? No, but is it evidencing the maturity of the believer sporting it?

XianGothDude
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:20 AM
And see therein lies the fault "certain" styles of dressing make one more or less "attention" seeking than another, the same could be applied to a man and woman dressed to go out for the night. You can't really use that as an arguement because either way we're all going to attract someones' attention good or bad. May I ask what you think of a guy wearing all black dressed in a black trench walking passed you at the mall or down the street?

SethElijah
Sep 3rd 2008, 01:47 AM
My question would be, and has been, what SHOULD I look like? What SHOULD I listen to? There will always be differences in what some Christians feel other Christians should wear or do. There are many who think I am wrong for being a working mother. Many feel I shouldn't listen to classic rock. Many feel I shouldn't wear all black. It was, at one point in my life, a frustration for me. It hasn't been for a long time, I am confortable with who I am, who the Lord made me.

My husband is about as far from goth as you can get. He does not understand why I like cemeteries, although after going with me he saw the historical and artistic aspect. He does not understand why I wear black all the time, but he knows me and knows my heart and it shines through. It must or we would not be together, because he is not like me. But he is, he loves the Lord, and he lives his life for the Lord, and he saw that in me.

Growing up in Louisiana I learned to celebrate funerals. Yes it is sad, but it is also a time to celebrate the life we knew, and to celebrate that the person who died is making their final journey to be with our Lord and Savior. I was brought up to understand that there is darkness in the world, but that darkness always happens for a reason. No matter how sad and disturbing it is all in God's plan. Black is my reminder that there are dangers in the world to be aware of, that there is darkness all around, but that darkness is what makes us stronger. It is a reminder that God said our reward would be great, but the road to greatness would be frought with difficulties that we may never understand.

I guess it is my way of saying I know there is darkness in the world that I will have to face, and I will face it head on and not falter because I know my faith in God will get me through anything in this life.

As it says below:

Live in such a way that those who know you but don't know God,
will come to know God because they know you.

Mograce2U
Sep 3rd 2008, 02:31 AM
Elouise,
I find the song lyrics in The Lamb by Legend I to be very good actually. I wish there was more like that. I don't quite understand the phrase "I am why the legend is born", but all in all I thought it was good. Thanks for posting it.

Mograce2U
Sep 3rd 2008, 02:35 AM
scourge39,
I am inclined to agree with you about the "Dead Horse Inn" because I too think they have beaten that horse to death and need to move on. I don't care one whit about "liturgy". But I do care about content. One of my all time favorites is the 1st stanza of the Battle Hymn of the Republic:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He has trampled out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored
He has loosed the fearful lightning of His terrible swift sword
His truth goes marching on...

Which is about all I have in memory but it is sufficient to move me.

Elouise
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:02 AM
Sorry, I followed the wrong URL.
I did not follow the thread far enough back to locate it and mistook the SM link for that.

Eternal Chapter like the Awakening came from South Africa which explains why I was trying to work out if they where from the UK I had missed them [Note to self to buy their album] Compared to a lot of the UK traditional folk I listen to the lyrics are upbeat.

Mograce
The phrase I am why the legend is born is setting the scene the rest of the legend albums which are taken from the book of Revelation and it foretells of His-story. Its dark romantic poetry telling of the Revelation of John that works with the poetry of the bible.

Krav;
My gothic dress tends to result in the following responses.
Old folk who come up to me to chat because what I wear reminds them of their mums and that allows for some goo relationships to be built.
Most tend to get mistaken for a first order nun and strangers come up and ask me about faith issues or to pray for them.
Youth who are hurting and unable to go to church feel able to come and talk to me as an 'elder goth' and often what is bothering them is questions of 'what is this world all about?'

XianGothDude
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:58 AM
Heh due to my long trench coats (I have 2 and one looks like a priest's cossock and is offically called the "Sanctuary" Coat my other coat is offically called the "Reverand" Coat) I get mistaken for a Catholic priest at times :P. I feel a horrible hurt when it comes to younger people; I want to help them whenever and however I can.

wondercoolguy
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:01 PM
I don't quite understand the phrase "I am why the legend is born", but all in all I thought it was good. Thanks for posting it.

Legend is another way of describing how awesome Jesus is!

Krav
Sep 4th 2008, 01:06 AM
And see therein lies the fault "certain" styles of dressing make one more or less "attention" seeking than another, the same could be applied to a man and woman dressed to go out for the night. You can't really use that as an arguement because either way we're all going to attract someones' attention good or bad. May I ask what you think of a guy wearing all black dressed in a black trench walking passed you at the mall or down the street?

Well, I used to be that guy when I was in my late teens ;)

Nowadays I would thing to myself, "what a shame" because I liken it to where I was in my lost years. I would probably think that they needed Christ. The last thing I would assume is that he/she was a believer. That would be the safe assumption given the scene that look represents. It represents darkness and gloom, not light and joy.

That's my honest answer.

XianGothDude
Sep 4th 2008, 05:05 AM
Thats being rather too anecdotal and shallow imho; sure you may have been involved in the rave scene (not the goth scene; there's a distinct difference) but I honestly think you're judging by personal experiance alittle too much so if you ask me. And its mere clothing for gosh sakes; I wasn't under the impression our clothes had to match our interal feelings in matters of spirituallity; that too is rather shallow.

Bethany67
Sep 4th 2008, 05:49 AM
Nowadays I would thing to myself, "what a shame" because I liken it to where I was in my lost years. I would probably think that they needed Christ. The last thing I would assume is that he/she was a believer. That would be the safe assumption given the scene that look represents. It represents darkness and gloom, not light and joy.

That's my honest answer.

That's how I feel when I see people in smart business suits. If I see a Goth it signals to me 'someone interesting,' someone who's not part of the ratrace, someone who thinks outside the box, someone I might have an intelligent conversation with. And no I'm no longer a Goth, athough I was around in the early scene, as Elouise was.

Marc B
Sep 4th 2008, 01:18 PM
After doing some reading on the origins of goth it seems on the surface to be nothing more than a kids fashion and music fad like the days of punk and disco albeit with dark connotations and the look of the undead. Basically looking like you're dressing up for halloween year round. Most goths would appear to outgrow this adolescent phase by their mid to late 20s according to http://www.gothicsubculture.com/origin.php (http://www.gothicsubculture.com/origin.php)

The way I see it if a young goth is looking for spiritual guidance in Christ then it is our duty to teach them what Jesus taught and not judge them by their outward appearance and let God decide if He wants to reveal Himself to them. It may be right away it may be years later, we can't force salvation on anyone. But on the other hand if a goth comes to know the mind of God through His Holy Spirit with Bible study and fellowship with other Christians then they must decide if God is first in their lives or is being acceptable to their peers more important?

wondercoolguy
Sep 4th 2008, 02:20 PM
His Holy Spirit with Bible study and fellowship with other Christians then they must decide if God is first in their lives or is being acceptable to their peers more important?


Romans Chapter 14 teaches us to let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. what is acceptable to their peers is not important if Peers = friends. If they are truly your friends then they have accepted you for who you are not trying to change you.

I maintain that Goth is useful to God and his army as way to convert them. Just like the suit/tie ppls God's army is being attacked in all sides so we must attack in every avenue we can. :spin:

Elouise
Sep 4th 2008, 03:40 PM
The article URL posted by Marc is pretty good but it neglects the social problems and stagflation in the UK and the reactions to a period of massive social and political change.

There are those for who who goth is a phase and there are those for whom Goth is a subculture they feel able to be honest and themselves in. Goth is not simply a way of dress or music I am part of the subculture because I reject the dominant culture round me. I choose to do so before the label goth was handed out but then I am a *cringe* first generation goth.
In the UK that is a secular and very selfish one that is based on a ghastly concept called meritocracy that further marginalizes the poor.

One needs to read the entire document and not merely a single page. The author goes on to explain further that:-


Possessing the gothic mentality/personality -- This indicates whether a person is gothic internally as opposed to merely looking gothic externally. For people with the gothic personality, their involvement is not merely a rebellious phase, but part of their inner self.Those likely to become interested in Goth and remain involved in it will usually possess most of the following characteristics and traits beforehand: individualistic, reflective, artistic, creative, introspective, emotionally focused and driven, sensitive, non-violent, moody. They are likely to have a distaste for authority, possess above average intelligence, and be social misfits. Most are interested in the beautiful, the mysterious and the supernatural.

If you showed that to anyone who knows me in any of the local churches, either the seminary or university I attend it would not surprise them at all. I can dress in a floral frock but who I am inside still gets out.

Being acceptable to the church does not matter to me anymor ethan being acceptable to other goths matters.
What truly mattered was I was acceptable to God through Christ even after His church had done their best to innoculate me against Christ by how they treated me for not fitting into their idea of how I should be.

Bethany67
Sep 4th 2008, 05:12 PM
I can dress in a floral frock

Nope, that doesn't compute. I cannot form a mental picture of that - it's just too Twilight Zone :)

wondercoolguy
Sep 4th 2008, 07:45 PM
Nope, that doesn't compute. I cannot form a mental picture of that - it's just too Twilight Zone :)


How about a nice sun dress with 5 kids attached to you?
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

Elouise
Sep 4th 2008, 08:06 PM
But I DO have a sundress...it covers every bit of my skin.

Bethany67
Sep 4th 2008, 09:08 PM
But I DO have a sundress...it covers every bit of my skin.

The closest I can get is the Aunts from Practical Magic ...

Marc B
Sep 4th 2008, 10:36 PM
Well I don't wear a dress so there. :lol:

Elouise
Sep 5th 2008, 06:50 AM
Would that be Aunt Jet or Aunt Frances...or were you thinking of Dotsie and Sadie again? :lol:

Marc.
How about a kilt?:spin:

livingwaters
Sep 5th 2008, 05:33 PM
For people with the gothic personality, their involvement is not merely a rebellious phase, but part of their inner self.Those likely to become interested in Goth and remain involved in it will usually possess most of the following characteristics and traits beforehand: individualistic, reflective, artistic, creative, introspective, emotionally focused and driven, sensitive, non-violent, moody. They are likely to have a distaste for authority, possess above average intelligence, and be social misfits. Most are interested in the beautiful, the mysterious and the supernatural.



This is my opinion, only: does God want us rebellious? does God want us to be driven and focused on our "emotions?" does God want us to rebel against authoriy? NOT in my Bible.

It seems that some just want a "reaction" from others so they can say, "oh, well....you know, that's just them old traditional Christians....haha. Remember, I said "some." When that happens, as any anything else, the majority of the population, mostly Christians, get offended. God is love, but we MUST respect HIM, as well. We are not to be stumbling blocks for others...Amen

God bless:hug:

wondercoolguy
Sep 5th 2008, 07:22 PM
Marc.
How about a kilt?:spin:

Aye! :lol:

:bible:

Scottish Christian Gothic :rofl:

XianGothDude
Sep 7th 2008, 05:49 PM
This is my opinion, only: does God want us rebellious? does God want us to be driven and focused on our "emotions?" does God want us to rebel against authoriy? NOT in my Bible.

It seems that some just want a "reaction" from others so they can say, "oh, well....you know, that's just them old traditional Christians....haha. Remember, I said "some." When that happens, as any anything else, the majority of the population, mostly Christians, get offended. God is love, but we MUST respect HIM, as well. We are not to be stumbling blocks for others...Amen

God bless:hug:

You're just underling certain phrases that stick out to you; first Elouise said to SOME as in teens its more than a rebellious phase, 2. Goth isn't about rebellion that's punk, 3. she was saying that our expressions as in painting, or art music etc is emotionally focused and driven (but even that isn't all its focused on). 4. Jesus went against religious authority of His day because He saw hypocriosy and legalism within the Pharisees.

wondercoolguy
Sep 25th 2008, 05:12 PM
:pray: Amen, brother :pray:

Buck shot
Sep 26th 2008, 02:01 PM
You're just underling certain phrases that stick out to you; first Elouise said to SOME as in teens its more than a rebellious phase, 2. Goth isn't about rebellion that's punk, 3. she was saying that our expressions as in painting, or art music etc is emotionally focused and driven (but even that isn't all its focused on). 4. Jesus went against religious authority of His day because He saw hypocriosy and legalism within the Pharisees.

Sorry I have not read the entire thread. I kindof dropped off reading all the posts as it seemed to just continue like a game of tennis and i get tired of watching the ball (makes my neck and shoulders cramp :lol:)

Thank ya'll for not allowing this to get to heated. I would ask if someone could compile all the info from the Goth side and tell us what Gothic is focussed on. With almost 200 posts, we should be able to get an understanding...

Jesus did not go against all religious authority. John was also an authority figure to many of the Jews and Jesus expounded on what John had taught. Jesus also did not rebel against the government but even said "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's". When Jesus did rebel (for lack of a better word) it was not a casual hang out and just watch in the shadows kind of rebelion. It was a turn over the tables and crack the wip type of rebellion. ;)

Elouise
Sep 26th 2008, 03:25 PM
How about you give it a try.

I am too busy at seminary.

Buck shot
Sep 26th 2008, 03:49 PM
How about you give it a try.

I am too busy at seminary.

I would but i have a view that is from the other side of the fence so it would not be fair for me to speak for the Gothics.

Sorry, i hope you are taking some good classes. I thought i was done but could not keep from taking another one (Greek) this semester ;)

Roswell
Sep 27th 2008, 03:38 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/avatars/across2.gif (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=29950) wondercoolguy (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=29950),

I have to first say that I just noticed this thread and did not go through all the many pages of this thread. :B

I love Saviour Machine!!! I first heard their music about ten years ago and they have been my favorite band ever since. I can't wait for the release of Legend III:II to come out...

With that said, I do have to caution the gothic life style. If you go down that road, you will have to stand out even greater than even the average Christian. You will have to make a point that you are not just a goth, but a Christian goth.

Any life style that follows that line has easy access to falling away from the faith. If you are a true Christian, than I do not believe that you will fall away. But you have to make sure you are truly in the faith and following the will of GOD.

Have you ever heard of Rackets and Drapes? They wanted to do the same thing and become out spoken goth singers for Christ. They were awesome, and I have to stress "were". They were not in the life style for long before the lead singer came out as being trans-gender and his desire to have a sex change. :cry:

Just walk carefully and make sure this is GOD's desire and not yours.

Marc B
Sep 27th 2008, 08:05 PM
Would that be Aunt Jet or Aunt Frances...or were you thinking of Dotsie and Sadie again? :lol:

Marc.
How about a kilt?:spin:


Not with our frosty Canadian winters. :eek:

Godchick08
Sep 27th 2008, 11:05 PM
Hello ! I am new to all this..my understanding of the word is
Jesus was in the earth 3 days and took the keys to death hell and the grave,, and then he rose leaving the grave and everything it represents behind and acsended into the heavens,and from then on he gives life.If you go around looking like you are dead then how can you spread the good news of life ?? No one can come to the father except the Spirit draw him and when you except the Lord as your saviour and get baptised with the Holy Spirit then you put off the old dead man and take up the life that Christ died to give you and your heart is changed and as you get into the word then your mind is renewed and you are washed and made a new creation.
God is full of life,, so much so that he lights up all of heaven
and thier is no shaddow of turning.. Seems to me that if you need to hang with death you should check the depth of your relationship with the father.. If this offends you then you should check it out in the love letters that the father left us to live by.. Tina :saint:

XianGothDude
Oct 2nd 2008, 12:19 AM
Hello ! I am new to all this..my understanding of the word is
Jesus was in the earth 3 days and took the keys to death hell and the grave,, and then he rose leaving the grave and everything it represents behind and acsended into the heavens,and from then on he gives life.If you go around looking like you are dead then how can you spread the good news of life ?? No one can come to the father except the Spirit draw him and when you except the Lord as your saviour and get baptised with the Holy Spirit then you put off the old dead man and take up the life that Christ died to give you and your heart is changed and as you get into the word then your mind is renewed and you are washed and made a new creation.
God is full of life,, so much so that he lights up all of heaven
and thier is no shaddow of turning.. Seems to me that if you need to hang with death you should check the depth of your relationship with the father.. If this offends you then you should check it out in the love letters that the father left us to live by.. Tina :saint:

No, it doesn't offend me; but I think you have no idea what the gothic subculture is about to be honest and are basing your statement on a false stereotype. Also; there should be no "average" Christian, you're basically saying that they're lukewarm, they're either a God-following Christian or not, no middle ground. (Now I know what I just said to some of you seemed to have backed myself into a corner, not so.), I think if you're so shallow as to base one's attitude on life by the clothing he or she wears or by the shade of colors they prefer their clothes to be. You'll never get anyway with going to the world imo.

Roswell
Oct 2nd 2008, 01:15 AM
No, it doesn't offend me; but I think you have no idea what the gothic subculture is about to be honest and are basing your statement on a false stereotype. Also; there should be no "average" Christian, you're basically saying that they're lukewarm, they're either a God-following Christian or not, no middle ground. (Now I know what I just said to some of you seemed to have backed myself into a corner, not so.), I think if you're so shallow as to base one's attitude on life by the clothing he or she wears or by the shade of colors they prefer their clothes to be. You'll never get anyway with going to the world imo.

I love the quotes in your signature.

Here is one I have always been partial to;

"...unity cannot be based on doctrine." - The Stand by Eric Clayton

XianGothDude
Oct 2nd 2008, 08:37 AM
Thank you; I've met Eric actually; he's just as humble and wise as he comes across in interviews as he is in real life. We talked at length about the state Christianity is in and how one should respond to the post-modern culture we are in. For so long when I was alittle bit younger (around 16 or so) I did everything I could to get away from post-modernism and its mindset, after sometime I realized that I wasn't going to get away from it and that I was in it and I needed to learn to respond to that.

Roswell
Oct 2nd 2008, 02:46 PM
Post modernism is everywhere. There is no getting away from it. Battling it is tricky but needed.

That is very interesting, and very encouraging hearing about Eric. Right now with him being sick, my prayers go out to him.

So how did you meet him? That sounds interesting. I have always wanted to see him in concert but have not gotten the chance...

XianGothDude
Oct 2nd 2008, 05:56 PM
LOL, how I met him.....it was a long and rather difficult task :P, see I got in contact with a Pastor from San Diego, Pastor Dave Hart, he told me Eric considered him more than any other pastor; his pastor. So I kinda figured it was a good start, Pastor Dave told me he'd put me in contact with Eric, well he "did" but didn't more or less. Overtime Pastor Dave (I really do think he's a great guy but), he just got so wrapped up in his work (he's a youth counsilor), plus he didn't make a very good impression on my fiancee when we all chatted. So after that I was kinda left to probably never meeting Eric, one day out of curiousity I noticed an address listed in the original SMI CD booklet and looked it up online, I assumed it was a recording studio or something, when I looked it up on mapquest it was actually an address in a neighborhood not that far from my house. My parens drove me passed one day and I knew it was Eric's house. (over some misunderstanding and such for about a year) Eric contacted me one night (said I passed the stalker test :P etc etc.) and we just chatted for about 3 hours on a range of topics and so forth. then a few months later I got to meet him a day after his birthday, great guy. A bit of a joker too.

Roswell
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:11 PM
That is awesome! I have never met him but we used to talk through emails soon after Legend I came out.

So how did you come across their music?

I actually found a couple of their tapes, I know, old stuff, but I found them for $.50 a piece. Ever since then, I have been hooked. I have all their albums, except the recent midi releases...

XianGothDude
Oct 2nd 2008, 09:48 PM
Well when I first started doing research on the Christian Goth sub-subculture, Saviour machine was pratically always listed as a band to listen to, so I found them on myspace and listened I was entranced by the vocals, melodies and harmony of it all; soon after I ordered their CDs (pretty much the only way to get ahold of any of their material now) and from then on I was a fan.

wondercoolguy
Oct 3rd 2008, 02:23 PM
I missed the whole Saviour Machine movement; what makes me angry is that I could have been apart of it. At the time I was surrounded by other youth members who didn't listen to anything but like newsboys or dc talk. Everything I heard in the "Christian Rock" world stunk. I stuck with my worldly musik Korn, Rammstein, etc. I was just in the wrong incorrect circle when it came to Christian Rock. The cirlce I run with now that I'm 27 all went to see Saviour Machine and meet Eric and have picture with him.

The only good thing that comes of this is I don't have to wait for their CD's to come out I have all their music in hand. Don't get me wrong trust me I wish I would have been waiting....:P

I love their music, message, and the fact that they reach out to a different branch of people.:pp

ViolaSnapdragon
Oct 3rd 2008, 03:27 PM
Don't feel too bad, I missed it too. My youth group wasn't even a DC Talk or Newsboys circle either. They all listened to secular Top 40 and hip-hop stuff while obsessing over sports and makeup, depending on their gender, and treated me like I was scum for not being into the same secular stuff as them. It was part of the reason my family left the church and then didn't find another for such a long time. Needless to say I had a very poor "Christian" upbringing which most likely played a huge roll in my sitting on the fence for so long then finally falling off onto the wrong side when I left high school. Thankfully I did find my way back.

Roswell
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:20 PM
Well now we all can wait for their final installment in the Legend series ;)

So what other bands do any of you listen to?

Recent things;
War of Ages has been awesome. They are so up front it is refreshing.
Awake the Suffering
With Blood come Cleansing
Demon Hunter
Fireflight
116 Clique- Amped album. This one is awesome. It is a mix of hip hop rap and a form of metal. Typically, I am more into metal than rap but this blends the two so well and is so up front, it just rocks.
Disciple
Blindside
Kutless
Pillar

Old school, yet still listen to, and possibly show my age :cry:;
Tourniquet!!
Atomic Opera
Deliverance
Mortification
Petra
Six Feet Deep
Old school Circle of Dust, nothing new...no CellDweller stuff.
Zao

To just name a few... :bounce:

XianGothDude
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:30 PM
Well I also listen to:

The Awakening
Virgin Black
The Eternal Chapter
I-DRAGON-I
Demon Hunter
Extol
that's about all I listen to, the first 4 bands are part of the Christian Gothic rock and goth metal scene. The other 2, Demon Hunter and Extol are thrash metal (some would say Metal Core) and Black metal.

XianGothDude
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:31 PM
Well now we all can wait for their final installment in the Legend series ;)

So what other bands do any of you listen to?

Recent things;
War of Ages has been awesome. They are so up front it is refreshing.
Awake the Suffering
With Blood come Cleansing
Demon Hunter
Fireflight
116 Clique- Amped album. This one is awesome. It is a mix of hip hop rap and a form of metal. Typically, I am more into metal than rap but this blends the two so well and is so up front, it just rocks.
Disciple
Blindside
Kutless
Pillar

Old school, yet still listen to, and possibly show my age :cry:;
Tourniquet!!
Atomic Opera
Deliverance
Mortification
Petra
Six Feet Deep
Old school Circle of Dust, nothing new...no CellDweller stuff.
Zao

To just name a few... :bounce:
Circle of Dust had Criss Angel in it as I believe the guitarist? Am I right?

Roswell
Oct 3rd 2008, 04:48 PM
Circle of Dust had Criss Angel in it as I believe the guitarist? Am I right?


You are correct. He was in for the album Disengage. The latest under the name Circle of Dust. That is when they separated and he started the show Mind freak.

I can not believe I forgot to add, Wedding Party.

I-DRAGON-I was first Wedding Party. They did only one album, Raven.

I also have Virgin Black but have not heard of The Eternal Chapter.

wondercoolguy
Oct 3rd 2008, 05:01 PM
Thankfully I did find my way back.

Amen sister, God is Good!



So what other bands do any of you listen to?

I listen to mostly Dream Theater, Symphony X, and Saviour Machine the only reason why is I've checked a couple Christian bands they stink musically; same crap I've had to put up with since Nirvana ruined rock. The good thing about you listing all those band is most of them I've never heard of. I liked Disciple just never took the time due to being introduced to Smachine and Symphony x at the same time.

I tried out eternal chapter the album was such a beat down.

Roswell
Oct 3rd 2008, 08:16 PM
The Lady Amalthea,

It is always awesome when someone realizes that God is all and without him we are nothing. Praise God for you.

wondercoolguy,

Those are some awesome bands I listed. Check them out, and if you can't find them I can help you. Some are not in print any longer.