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dan p
Aug 14th 2008, 12:19 AM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Gace of God ?

DadBurnett
Aug 14th 2008, 04:44 AM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Gace of God ?

Remember the words of Jesus saying, “It is not me but the Father that doeth the works”?
Do prophets predict the future? No. A prophet speaks the Word given to them by the Lord, to the extent that they utter prophecy, the do so giving voice to Spirit. They, of themselves, do not predict the future. In that light, it is the Lord that predicts …
Prophets were not always accepted as prophets in their day, in their community. Prophets seems to deal with the stuff of the future and are best revealed by hindsight … Are there prophets today/ It depends on your perception and your beliefs. Several millions of people believe and testify to the head of the Salt Lake LDS church to be both seer and prophet. They claim their prophet speaks with the direct inspiration/revelatrion and the authority of the Lord. Are there other prophets? I don’t know, there are many that claim to make prophetic utterances, but who of them does so with the authority of the Lord? Is true prophecy the stuff of this afternoon or tomorrow? Or, has it been that real prophecy reaches across generations and millennia?
I look forward to what others have to say on the subject and I hope we don’t get side-tracked by my LDS reference.

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 04:48 AM
If there are, then their voices are drowned out in the myriad voices of the pretenders.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 14th 2008, 04:51 AM
Several millions of people believe and testify to the head of the Salt Lake LDS church to be both seer and prophet. They claim their prophet speaks with the direct inspiration/revelatrion and the authority of the Lord.

Absolutely....and just because a group of people claim someone to be a prophet does not make that person a prophet.
Again, we should not determine whether or not someone is a prophet by what other people claim...We should make that determination based on the Word of God, and if what they are prophesying corresponds with the Scriptural revelation.
There are definitely people today who have the gift of prophecy, just as there are people who are false prophets, as well.

As far as what prophecy is, Dad Burnett is right on the money....It is not necessarily predicting the future, but procaliming the word of God.

crossnote
Aug 14th 2008, 05:33 AM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Grace of God ?

There are those who speak forth God's Word and those who have accurate temporal predictions given through God as did Agabus is Acts 11:28 but there are no more OT type prophets who's speaking is equal to God's Word in Scripture. In other words there is no more Divine Revelation designed for ALL mankind.
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:1-2)

SpokenFor
Aug 14th 2008, 02:44 PM
I do believe there are some true prophets around (even some on this messageboard) who are trying to warn others of the impending Last Days and calling for repentance.

Unfortunately, there are also lots of people around who call themselves "prophets" who are no more than "Christian" psychics or fakes.

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 02:48 PM
I do believe there are some true prophets around (even some on this messageboard) who are trying to warn others of the impending Last Days and calling for repentance.

Here's the thing though. Shouldn't the message for repentance be delivered to the unrepentant?

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 03:59 PM
We definitely still have prophet's and apostles for the church today.

Their prophecy and direction for the church is 100% correct and completely
in line with God's will. If you want to search these prophets and apostles out
you will find them...






...In the scriptures :D

At least that's how I feel,
KingFisher

Sold Out
Aug 14th 2008, 04:12 PM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Gace of God ?

This gift is one of the four spiritual gifts given TO the New Testament church (not for the church, as in the other gifts in I Cor 12).

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; " Eph 4:11

Romans 12:6 give us a prerequisite to using the gift of prophecy:

"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith"

If a person claims to speak for the Lord, he must do so within the bounds of scripture.

Slug1
Aug 14th 2008, 04:21 PM
Yep, as SoldOut just pointed out. Not only are there "true" prophets today but this fact is backed by scripture such as what was posted. It does seem though that "anointed" prophets who are picked by God are drowned out by the many self-appointed and self-taught so called prophets.

Anointed and self-appointed are way two separate types of prophet... one is picked by God to speak and the other... well, let's just say don't listen to them.

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 04:23 PM
Anointed and self-appointed are way two separate types of prophet... one is picked by God to speak and the other... well, let's just say don't listen to them.

Damned if one does. Damned if one doesn't. They sound exactly the same.

Slug1
Aug 14th 2008, 04:26 PM
Damned if one does. Damned if one doesn't. They sound exactly the same.Not if you discern through the spirit ;)

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 04:31 PM
Not if you discern through the spirit ;)

That's my question of the month: how does one do that?

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 04:49 PM
That's my question of the month: how does one do that?

The Holy Spirit is a person... it's not just a filter... If you believe that you are in a personal relationship with God and his spirit lives inside of you, then you discern the activity by the fellowship with the Spirit... meaning if you talk to it, it will talk to you... there is no other way to discern by the spirit if you first don't believe that the Spirit is God inside of you and it speaks to you... but that means you have to commune with the Spirit for it to properly commune with you

SpokenFor
Aug 14th 2008, 05:02 PM
The Holy Spirit is a person... it's not just a filter... If you believe that you are in a personal relationship with God and his spirit lives inside of you, then you discern the activity by the fellowship with the Spirit... meaning if you talk to it, it will talk to you... there is no other way to discern by the spirit if you first don't believe that the Spirit is God inside of you and it speaks to you... but that means you have to commune with the Spirit for it to properly commune with you

Well said. The Holy Spirit is not just a "power source" that we "plug in to" (ugh..heard that phrase in church too many times). But, exactly as you said...a person with whom we need to have a relationship.

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 05:08 PM
The Holy Spirit is a person... it's not just a filter... If you believe that you are in a personal relationship with God and his spirit lives inside of you, then you discern the activity by the fellowship with the Spirit... meaning if you talk to it, it will talk to you... there is no other way to discern by the spirit if you first don't believe that the Spirit is God inside of you and it speaks to you... but that means you have to commune with the Spirit for it to properly commune with you

How does one separate the Holy Spirit from what they want to believe themselves? For example... consider the differences between those who meet the qualifications above, and believe that Todd Bentley's been inspired @ Lakeland vs. others who meet the qualifications above and do not concur with what's going on there.

One of the two of those parties is wrong, yet both are clearly 'listening to the Holy Spirit'.

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 05:23 PM
That's where I tell you to unlearn what you have learned, ask the Lord to remove any form of a critical spirit that you can rightly interpret what is going on...

There is no formula or method that I can give you that would satisfactorily answer your question...

as far as Todd and Lakeland is concerned we are not allowed by the ruling body of these forums to speak of the events... just to let you know...

i will tell you this though... you are more prophetic and walking in the Spirit when you point out the good in the scum of the earth... as far as moves of God are concerned there is a principle that every revival is like a trail mix... you have fruit, nuts and flakes... don't let the nuts and flakes keep you from enjoying the fruit of a move of God...

dan p
Aug 14th 2008, 05:40 PM
See if their any agreement with this next post. The first mention of a prophet is in Gen 20:1-18. Most know the story of Abimelech when he took Sarah to be his wife.

1) he has a dream from God , warning him of impending disaster if he does not return Sarah

2) then God in the vision tells him that Abram is a Prophet

3) his claim to fame as a prophet , is that he will pray for the King, and reverse disaster

4) Then we have prophets through out Isreal's history


5) most well known are prophets like Elijah who could call fire down from heaven and killed many people

6) Then Elisha which I see mostly as a service prophet unlike Elijah


7) SO I say that prophets were sent by God , to WARN his people to retun and worship Him only, for they were always worshiping other God's

8) I believe that that prophets today are to do the same thing, and that message to the Body of Christ , IS COME BACK TO THE MYSTERY as was delivered to you by the Apostle Paul, and make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery. Is it any different today, with its baptism division, great commission division, Law and Grace division, etc.

HisLeast
Aug 14th 2008, 05:43 PM
8) I believe that that prophets today are to do the same thing, and that message to the Body of Christ , IS COME BACK TO THE MYSTERY as was delivered to you by the Apostle Paul, and make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery. Is it any different today, with its baptism division, great commission division, Law and Grace division, etc.

Do you see a change in there? To me it LOOKS like to go from 6 - 8 Prophets must go from warning the reprobate to warning the repentant.

Also... what's the dispensation of mystery?

rrguy
Aug 14th 2008, 05:53 PM
I understand God will use who he wants to. Yet It makes sense to me that eventually, you must give up all your wants minus the want to serve God. So that helps me decide who is not one.

Friend of I AM
Aug 14th 2008, 06:02 PM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Gace of God ?

Not really prophets per say, but the gift of prophecy is still active. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets when he came, making it kind of obselete to have prophets, as all believers were given gifts of the spirit which includes the gift of prophecy. At this point the gift of prophecy is primarily used to discern scriptures/meanings.

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 06:20 PM
Not if you discern through the spirit ;)

Howdy Slug,

What if I've discerned through the Spirit that I haven't meet, seen, or heard
any modern prophets?

Although I guess I haven't heard any because I'm Baptist and they know that
they wont be accepted in those churches.

But...that wouldn't have stopped any of the O.T. prophets. ;)

KingFisher

Friend of I AM
Aug 14th 2008, 06:36 PM
Howdy Slug,

What if I've discerned through the Spirit that I haven't meet, seen, or heard
any modern prophets?

Although I guess I haven't heard any because I'm Baptist and they know that
they wont be accepted in those churches.

But...that wouldn't have stopped any of the O.T. prophets. ;)

KingFisher

One of the best ways to tell if someone is discerning through the spirit, is to whether or not they show partiality. The wisdom from above shows no partiality, and is done for the purpose of edification rather than self glorification. Thus, we need to be careful of anyone who is running around calling themselves a prophet nowadays.

This doesn't mean that there aren't people who can prophesy on what may happen based on the gift of prophecy, but even Jesus didn't really go running around saying he was the Christ. So we as believers need to be very wary of anyone who comes in his own name, as even the very Christ himself came in the name of his Father, not himself.

In Christ,

Stephen

Slug1
Aug 14th 2008, 06:44 PM
Howdy Slug,

What if I've discerned through the Spirit that I haven't meet, seen, or heard
any modern prophets?

Although I guess I haven't heard any because I'm Baptist and they know that
they wont be accepted in those churches.

But...that wouldn't have stopped any of the O.T. prophets. ;)

KingFisherNot to sidestep this but I really can't answer this specifically in your case.

Generally I guess that if a congregation limits God's ability to distribute them gifts then such a congregation is limiting themselves from all the blessings that God wants to offer to enpower them to do His will. Prophets are just one of the parts of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12) and when a congregation removes any part then they're hobbling themselves from experiencing all the Gifts and thus the fullness that God desires to offer.

Does this make such a congregation ineffective... I don't think so but I do feel that they cause themselves to be "less" effective.

Just like a congragation that only allows Tongues and EVERYONE speaks in tongues... where are the rest of the parts that make up a Body that has unity and are "fully" empowered by accepting all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Hope this isn't taken in a negative light cause this is my understanding of scripture.

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 06:53 PM
Not to sidestep this but I really can't answer this specifically in your case.

Generally I guess that if a congregation limits God's ability to distribute them gifts then such a congregation is limiting themselves from all the blessings that God wants to offer to enpower them to do His will. Prophets are just one of the parts of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12) and when a congregation removes any part then they're hobbling themselves from experiencing all the Gifts and thus the fullness that God desires to offer.

Does this make such a congregation ineffective... I don't think so but I do feel that they cause themselves to be "less" effective.

Just like a congragation that only allows Tongues and EVERYONE speaks in tongues... where are the rest of the parts that make up a Body that has unity and are "fully" empowered by accepting all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Hope this isn't taken in a negative light cause this is my understanding of scripture.

Hi Slug thanks,
It wasn't taken in a negative light at all.
And I think you did answer my question for the most part.

I guess my next question is what exactly is the gift of prophecy?

and...

How is it used in the N.T. church?

Thanks,
KingFisher

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 08:14 PM
I believe that the office of the prophet hasn't changed from the Old Testament deviation in that the office of the prophet isn't to declare what God is going to do, it's more of declaring what God is doing and do declare what he is doing now...

All can prophesy but not all can call forth things in other people and nations...

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 08:42 PM
Hi timmyb,

I'm having trouble understanding this...


I believe that the office of the prophet hasn't changed from
the Old Testament deviation in that the office of the prophet
isn't to declare what God is going to do...It seems like your saying that the office hasn't changed from
the O.T. , but then you say that their not to to declare what
God is going to to. (Future events right?)

Isn't that a change? Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

Although I think this clarified what you meant so I'll go with it.


it's more of declaring what God is doing and do declare what he
is doing now...Is there scripture that states that the foretelling aspect of prophecy
would cease but the declaring what God is doing would continue?

Thanks,
KingFisher

timmyb
Aug 14th 2008, 08:52 PM
ok maybe i worded that wrong.. but i believe that the office and practice of the prophet hasn't changed... but most Christians have a wrong teaching about prophets.. prophets are not to be known by the accuracy of their predictions but by the character of their lives.... Jesus himself said you shall know them by their fruits

amazzin
Aug 14th 2008, 08:52 PM
We need to be able to distinguish between a person who is "prophetic" and the office of the prophet.

The office of the prophet is part of the 5 fold ministry. Their mandate is to "equip" the prophetic people

So, yes there are prophets today proclaiming the word of God

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 09:07 PM
Thanks Timmy,


ok maybe i worded that wrong..Don't sweat it...I've been there done that.


prophets are not to be known by the accuracy of their predictions...Ok but does that contradict scripture like this...

Deuteronomy 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if
the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the
LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall
not be afraid of him.

I think that If a prophet speaks for God and God is infallible, perfect, all
knowing, all seeing…etc…well a prophet has to have an accuracy rating of
100%. There is no margin for error.


but by the character of their lives.... Jesus himself said you shall know them by their fruitsWell I can agree but that was in reference to all followers not just prophets.

Thanks again,
KingFisher

KingFisher
Aug 14th 2008, 09:20 PM
Hi Amazzin,


We need to be able to distinguish between a person who is "prophetic" and the office of the prophet.Excellent...that's just what I've been asking. What are the differences?


The office of the prophet is part of the 5 fold ministry. Their mandate is to "equip" the prophetic peopleCan you expand on this a little more?


So, yes there are prophets today proclaiming the word of God Cool, but I'm still going to search this out a little more if you don't mind.

Thanks,
KingFisher

poochie
Aug 14th 2008, 10:08 PM
We know that there were prophets in the Bible beginning in Genesis,through Revelation. But this is the age of Grace. In Eph 4:11, it talks about Prophets. So what is their ministry, can we recognze them , do they predict the future ? How does it relate to the Dispensation of the Gace of God ?


Read my article for this answer.

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Theological/sign_gifts.htm

amazzin
Aug 15th 2008, 02:57 AM
First we need to review the fivefold ministry gifts. I refer to them as the "consultant gifts" according to Eph 2;19-22; 4:11-16; Col 1:25-29 and Heb 6:1-2).

Perfecting and maturing the saints
Edifying and building up the Body of Christ
Producing saints for the effective work of the ministry
Bringing the saints into a unity of the faith
Creating knowledge of the son of God to produce a perfect man
Attaining the measure of the stature of Christ fullness
Raising spiritual children to adulthood
Now in regards to prophets. The chief role of the prophet is not to prophesy. It is to teach everyone how to hear the voice of God for themselves. "My sheep know my voice", Jesus said (see John 10). They want everyone to be trained effectively in hearing the voice of the Lord and in distinguishing between that, their own opinions, and the disrupting influence of the enemy

The office of the prophet

joztok
Aug 15th 2008, 01:57 PM
If there are, then their voices are drowned out in the myriad voices of the pretenders.

Prophecy is alive and well, yet not welcomed in church culture. Prophets these days are not really well treated and don't usually fit the social norm or 'hierarchical' scheme of things. Outside of the Sunday services, they flourish.

Unfortunately, some are a bit loopy. But allot are quite rare. We all have the gift of prophecy. Hang out with some mates and just spend time abiding in God's Holy Spirit and see if He wants to reveal himself through you when ever you think he may be prompting you to speak. Only this free and open environment can we discover the gifts of prophecy and other gifts that he has given his people. It does work. We have this special group on Saturday night where we allow this to happen. Practicing the presence. It's amazing and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Let the Holy Spirit run the meeting.

joztok
Aug 15th 2008, 02:00 PM
There are those who speak forth God's Word and those who have accurate temporal predictions given through God as did Agabus is Acts 11:28 but there are no more OT type prophets who's speaking is equal to God's Word in Scripture. In other words there is no more Divine Revelation designed for ALL mankind.
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:1-2)

I'm not quite sure about that. Early settlers in countries spoke amazing things over their new homes, only to see profound results with the words they uttered. Australia and New Zealand are founded on prophecies uttered by early settlers. If the LIVING word is in us, His word is still being written. Only fragmented.

KingFisher
Aug 15th 2008, 02:29 PM
Hi Amazzin,

I appreciate you taking the time to try and answer my questions.

and...

I'm not trying to be an ankle biter but I don't think you answered the questions at all.

I did study the scripture you posted.

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the
household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles
and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in
whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple
in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling
place of God in the Spirit.

Ok, this is a good place to start.

Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
Ok this is what really needs to be answered.

What did these foundational prophets do?
Do modern prophets function in the same light?

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets,
some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of
the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the
Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the
fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and
fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men,
in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in
love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from
whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint
supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its
share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Was Paul speaking of an apostle / prophet like himself?
Was he talking about a different role of apostle / prophet?

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my
flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body,
which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the
stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of
God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from
generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God
willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery
among the Gentiles: which[d] is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him
we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I
also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

I read this several times. I know what it's saying here, but I don't see this
as answering "are there prophets today?".

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles
of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of
baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of
eternal judgment. 3 And this we will[a] do if God permits.

Same here as above?


*Now in regards to prophets. The chief role of the prophet is not to prophesy.Ok, I keep hearing ya'll say this but I'd really like scripture saying this.


It is to teach everyone how to hear the voice of God for themselves. "My sheep know my voice", Jesus said (see John 10). Well, that quote from Jesus says that His sheep know His voice, not that they need a prophet to teach them to know it right?


They want everyone to be trained effectively in hearing the voice of the Lord and in distinguishing between that, their own opinions, and the disrupting influence of the enemy*I agree with this, and this should be the hope of all believers.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be a pain. I just want to try
and get some answers.

In love,
KingFisher

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 03:08 PM
Hi Amazzin,

I appreciate you taking the time to try and answer my questions.

and...

I'm not trying to be an ankle biter but I don't think you answered the questions at all.

I did study the scripture you posted.

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the
household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles
and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in
whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple
in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling
place of God in the Spirit.

Ok, this is a good place to start.

Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
Ok this is what really needs to be answered.

What did these foundational prophets do?
Do modern prophets function in the same light?

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets,
some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of
the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the
Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the
fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and
fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men,
in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in
love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from
whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint
supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its
share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Was Paul speaking of an apostle / prophet like himself?
Was he talking about a different role of apostle / prophet?

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my
flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body,
which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the
stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of
God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from
generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God
willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery
among the Gentiles: which[d] is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him
we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I
also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

I read this several times. I know what it's saying here, but I don't see this
as answering "are there prophets today?".

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles
of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of
baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of
eternal judgment. 3 And this we will[a] do if God permits.

Same here as above?

Ok, I keep hearing ya'll say this but I'd really like scripture saying this.

Well, that quote from Jesus says that His sheep know His voice, not that they need a prophet to teach them to know it right?

I agree with this, and this should be the hope of all believers.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be a pain. I just want to try
and get some answers.

In love,
KingFisher

I believe Paul is the picture of what an apostle should be... and the reality is that we are not mature as one... which is proof that we need the whole of the five fold ministry... this very discussion is proof that we aren't in unity of the faith... it's all over these boards

HisLeast
Aug 15th 2008, 03:27 PM
Prophecy is alive and well, yet not welcomed in church culture. Prophets these days are not really well treated and don't usually fit the social norm or 'hierarchical' scheme of things. Outside of the Sunday services, they flourish.

Right... "its the church's fault". It couldn't POSSIBLY be that for every 1 genuine prophet, there are hundreds if not thousands who daily assert that they have been given a message from God. You can see it here WEEKLY. If 99% of the time you hear someone claim prophecy turn out to be a charlatan or misguided, then what's going to be your natural reaction when the next person comes around? I'm sick of hearing this "the church isn't welcoming". "The church isn't this. This church isn't that. Its the church's fault. The church isn't good enough." Like the church has nothing better to do but dedicate itself to failure. How about some accountability leveled towards the people who want to play the prophecy game?


Hang out with some mates and just spend time abiding in God's Holy Spirit and see if He wants to reveal himself through you when ever you think he may be prompting you to speak. Only this free and open environment can we discover the gifts of prophecy and other gifts that he has given his people. It does work. We have this special group on Saturday night where we allow this to happen. Practicing the presence. It's amazing and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Let the Holy Spirit run the meeting.

"abiding in God's Holy Spirit"
"Practicing the presence"
"Let the Holy Spirit run the meeting"

What does any of that mean?

KingFisher
Aug 15th 2008, 03:31 PM
I believe Paul is the picture of what an apostle should be... and the reality is that we are not mature as one... Ok, were getting there in answering the question.

What is the scriptural office of prophet?

Why are they not as mature as Paul, John, Peter and the others now?

You said reality.
What in reality changed?


which is proof that we need the whole of the five fold ministry...The complete "five fold ministry" was active while Paul was a mature
apostle. So it doesn't seem like proof.


this very discussion is proof that we aren't in unity of the faith... it's all over these boardsI'm really trying to find that unity...not in a person with opinions but in the
scriptures.

Can you help me with this?
KingFisher

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 03:45 PM
Ok, were getting there in answering the question.

What is the scriptural office of prophet?

Why are they not as mature as Paul, John, Peter and the others now?

the reality is that you will always have weak, broken, and immature men at those postitions... There isn't anyone else... even Paul regarded himself as weak and immature... if you notice his letters to Galatia and his first letter to the Corinth church although it was scriptural it didn't have the seasoning that the letter to the Roman church... the reality is that they are given those ministry gifts and the gifts and calling of God cannot be revoked...


You said reality.
What in reality changed?

we stopped believing that God worked through apostles and prophets so we decided that we would be better off without them...


The complete "five fold ministry" was active while Paul was a mature
apostle. So it doesn't seem like proof.

reality is Paul was a man just like you and me... he could raise up anybody at this position... we have to have the heart to respond to the gifting that the man has and as well as have grace with the man that he is but a man and he's as fragile and immature as we are...


I'm really trying to find that unity...not in a person with opinions but in the
scriptures.

i agree... i'm looking for it... the aforementioned verse says they should be active now... so now i'm trying to scripturally identify them

Can you help me with this?
KingFisher[/quote]

KingFisher
Aug 15th 2008, 04:07 PM
Hi Timmy,

I still need some help clearing things up...

I asked:

What is the scriptural office of prophet?
Why are they not as mature as Paul, John, Peter and the others now?You answered:

the reality is that you will always have weak, broken, and immature men at those postitions... There isn't anyone else... even Paul regarded himself as weak and immature... if you notice his letters to Galatia and his first letter to the Corinth church although it was scriptural it didn't have the seasoning that the letter to the Roman church... the reality is that they are given those ministry gifts and the gifts and calling of God cannot be revoked...You kinda answered the second so I'll leave it but...

Again, what is the scriptural office of prophet?

Let's take John as an example he gave prophecy and wrote it down in
Revelations.

John could be said to be a prophet. Can a modern prophet write scripture like John?

If not, scripturally why did their role change?

I asked:

You said reality.
What in reality changed?You answered:

we stopped believing that God worked through apostles and prophets so we decided that we would be better off without them... That wouldn't have ever stopped any of the prophets in the past that God used.

What changed?


i agree... i'm looking for it... the aforementioned verse says they should be active now... so now i'm trying to scripturally identify themCool...uh...which one was it?

KingFisher

dan p
Aug 15th 2008, 09:15 PM
A good verse to look at is in Eph 3:9, to make all men see what is the Dipensation of the Mystery is what Paul wants us all to do. The prophets of the Old Testament were sent get His people to come back to the worship of Jehovah, and if a prophet under Grace is doing his job is in Eph 4:13 and that unity is the message that Paul taught, the Revelation of the Mystery.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 09:28 PM
I believe it's a clear commissioning of God... those callings of God are never taken back... and that ministry calling upon remains upon them regardless of the fact that they are ever used in that capacity... we need to ask for discernment that we may identify those who are called in that capacity... as far as apostles are concerned we need scriptural evidence of their authority... another word for apostle is overseer which is kind of like a pastor of pastors and prophets... they establish doctrine according to scripture thereby laying a foundation for the church... that's a start

SpokenFor
Aug 15th 2008, 11:22 PM
I believe it's a clear commissioning of God... those callings of God are never taken back... and that ministry calling upon remains upon them regardless of the fact that they are ever used in that capacity... we need to ask for discernment that we may identify those who are called in that capacity... as far as apostles are concerned we need scriptural evidence of their authority... another word for apostle is overseer which is kind of like a pastor of pastors and prophets... they establish doctrine according to scripture thereby laying a foundation for the church... that's a start

You mean I can't just BUY my Apostolic calling? I heard you can get that title for only $650.

Zack702
Aug 15th 2008, 11:51 PM
Prophecy has to do with faith.
It is words purposed by faith.
Both from the sayer and the hearer.
Prophecy is not just predicting the future.
Prophecy should be meant for the time at hand.
When the echo of it comes to God and it is between the sayer and the hearer and if it is found true then God causes effect.

I don't really think we need prophecy today.
Are minds have been set free.
Through education and much experience we don't need prophecy to understand our wrong or our right.
Nor do we need it to believe in God.
Given all the scientific knowledge we have, at some point we should come to terms with the Allmighty who created this place.
If we look within we can find that we all have that same spirit guiding us, and it is our faith in that which sets us apart.

timmyb
Aug 16th 2008, 12:54 AM
You mean I can't just BUY my Apostolic calling? I heard you can get that title for only $650.

sorry... :P....................