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dan p
Aug 14th 2008, 12:28 AM
In Rev , there is some Christians who say that christians are in this book, in the first 3 chapters. If that is true, who is being spoken in Rev 3:15,16. They get spued out ? Are these Christian or not ? Or why not ?

Rufus_1611
Aug 18th 2008, 02:53 PM
In Rev , there is some Christians who say that christians are in this book, in the first 3 chapters. If that is true, who is being spoken in Rev 3:15,16. They get spued out ? Are these Christian or not ? Or why not ?

Lukewarm Christians are being spewed out. They are saved by the blood believers who are not living zealous lives for God, are materialistic, lacking spiritual discernment and are naked, though they aren't even aware of their nakedness.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 18th 2008, 04:23 PM
Lukewarm Christians are being spewed out. They are saved by the blood believers who are not living zealous lives for God, are materialistic, lacking spiritual discernment and are naked, though they aren't even aware of their nakedness.

Agreed.

On another note...Is that Rufus 1611 (80 books) or is that Rufus 1611 (66 books)???:hmm::lol:

dan p
Aug 18th 2008, 05:08 PM
Does that me we can lose eternal life or we can not have eternal life ? Rom 6:23 ? That means that if we belong to the Body of Christ , Christ is SPUEING Himself out, and If he does what part of the Body of Christ does He spue out ? 1 Cor 12:27.

Frances
Aug 18th 2008, 05:12 PM
Lukewarm Christians are being spewed out. They are saved by the blood believers who are not living zealous lives for God, .

Agreed.
They are Christians who think that all that is necessary to be a Saved for ever is that on one occasion in their lives they decided to repent and trust in Jesus' Sacrifice for them - then instead of living in obedience to Him and His Word to do their best to glorify Him they live to please themselves.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 05:35 PM
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Many say that this scripture "I will spew thee out of my mouth." is evidence that a Christian can loose their salvation.

Would that mean, being 'cold' will keep one saved?

*Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
In Rev , there is some Christians who say that christians are in this book, in the first 3 chapters. If that is true, who is being spoken in Rev 3:15,16. They get spued out ? Are these Christian or not ? Or why not ?

These are not born from above Christians, they are what I call "church players." They play like they are Christians by going to church, tithing, doing things in the name of Christ, but they were never born from above through Christ. They are pretenders, or lukewarm. Cold is the unsaved, Hot is the saved, the Christian pretenders are the lukewarm.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 05:55 PM
These are not born from above Christians, they are what I call "church players." They play like they are Christians by going to church, tithing, doing things in the name of Christ, but they were never born from above through Christ. They are pretenders, or lukewarm. Cold is the unsaved, Hot is the saved, the Christian pretenders are the lukewarm.

So, how can they be spewed out, if they are not in Christ?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
So, how can they be spewed out, if they are not in Christ?

They "pretend" to be in Christ. The Gnostics were the 1st century Church pretenders who claimed to be Christians, and they even wrote their own scriptures on Christ, and ever since them, there have been religious groups who claim to be in Christ, while deceiving the masses. They have a form of Godliness, but they don't have the power of the Holy Spirit, because they are not born from above. They claim Christ, but don't have Christ. They are lukewarm.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 06:37 PM
They "pretend" to be in Christ. The Gnostics were the 1st century Church pretenders who claimed to be Christians, and they even wrote their own scriptures on Christ, and ever since them, there have been religious groups who claim to be in Christ, while deceiving the masses. They have a form of Godliness, but they don't have the power of the Holy Spirit, because they are not born from above. They claim Christ, but don't have Christ. They are lukewarm.

Then, will Jesus Christ just 'pretend' to spew them out?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 06:52 PM
Lukewarm in the Greek is "chliaros" which means tepid. In metaph. form, the condition of the soul wretchedly fluctuating between dormancy and a passion of love.

So, a pretender in Christ. Claims to love through the Holy Spirit, but is empty inside in reality.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 07:00 PM
Lukewarm in the Greek is "chliaros" which means tepid. In metaph. form, the condition of the soul wretchedly fluctuating between dormancy and a passion of love.

So, a pretender in Christ. Claims to love through the Holy Spirit, but is empty inside in reality.

I know what lukewarm means, but you did not answer the question I asked.

"will Jesus Christ just 'pretend' to spew them out?"

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 07:11 PM
In Rev , there is some Christians who say that christians are in this book, in the first 3 chapters. If that is true, who is being spoken in Rev 3:15,16. They get spued out ? Are these Christian or not ? Or why not ?
(Titus 1:16 KJV) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

(James 2:20 KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

(Luke 6:44 KJV) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

The evidence that was lacking in the works being judged was the presence of faith. They were trusting in their riches instead of in Christ. And we see that Christ was not even among them. The only fruit that will last until eternal life is that wrought by the Spirit of God. And that is why their works were neither hot or cold nor able to bring the true refreshment and comfort of the Spirit to those whom they served. Money has no profit to offer for eternal life.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 07:22 PM
"will Jesus Christ just 'pretend' to spew them out?"

Of course he will not pretend to spew them out, he will spew them out. I never said he wouldn't spew them out? Where did you get this idea? Church players were never saved. They don't have the Holy Spirit, so they can't be part of the bride of Christ.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 07:23 PM
(Titus 1:16 KJV) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

(James 2:20 KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

(Luke 6:44 KJV) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

The evidence that was lacking in the works being judged was the presence of faith. They were trusting in their riches instead of in Christ. And we see that Christ was not even among them. The only fruit that will last until eternal life is that wrought by the Spirit of God. And that is why their works were neither hot or cold nor able to bring the true refreshment and comfort of the Spirit to those whom they served. Money has no profit to offer for eternal life.

Exactly.

Lukewarm church players. Never saved, but claim to be saved by their legalistic church games.

dan p
Aug 18th 2008, 07:25 PM
What is the Body of Christ doing in the Tribulation anyway ? Phil 3:20-21 ; 1 Thess 5:9 ; 1 Thess 5:23 ; and I Thess 1:10 for this can go several direction.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 07:28 PM
Of course he will not pretend to spew them out, he will spew them out. I never said he wouldn't spew them out? Where did you get this idea? Church players were never saved. They don't have the Holy Spirit, so they can't be part of the bride of Christ.


So again; How will He spew them out, if they are not in Christ?

David Taylor
Aug 18th 2008, 07:35 PM
What is the Body of Christ doing in the Tribulation anyway ? Phil 3:20-21 ; 1 Thess 5:9 ; 1 Thess 5:23 ; and I Thess 1:10 for this can go several direction.

Continuing to do what it has done throughout every time of trial and tribulation it has encountered....remaining faithful to the Lord, and continuing to share the gospel of Christ with the lost of the world.

Jesus said,
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." John 15:18, 16:33, 17:15



I Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."



Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire"



I Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."




2 Thessalonians 1:4 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. "


We Christians (as a group) aren't going anywhere until it is all over. No early departures (outside of regular old individual death).

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. "

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 07:35 PM
So again; How will He spew them out, if they are not in Christ?All the issues addressed to the 7 churches have to do with falling away and the subsequent need to overcome. We are not told whether Laodicea ever had the Spirit, only that their works did not reflect faith at work in them. It would seem this church in particular had gone back to trusting in the ways of the world. Much as Jezebel's church turned to the things of Satan.

Rufus_1611
Aug 18th 2008, 07:41 PM
So again; How will He spew them out, if they are not in Christ? He will spew them out into great tribulation and/or chastisement at the judgment seat, yet they will be eternally saved by their belief in the saving blood of Jesus Christ.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 07:45 PM
All the issues addressed to the 7 churches have to do with falling away and the subsequent need to overcome. We are not told whether Laodicea ever had the Spirit, only that their works did not reflect faith at work in them. It would seem this church in particular had gone back to trusting in the ways of the world. Much as Jezebel's church turned to the things of Satan.

How can one be in Christ, without the Spirit?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 07:52 PM
How can one be in Christ, without the Spirit?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.If he has fallen away from grace then he is not in Christ. Which was my point. It doesn't say they were never in Christ. Else the parable of the sower about the deceitfulness of riches choking out the life of the seed planted would have no real point of reference for us.

Ephesus left their love, Sardis let their garments get defiled and turned to dead works, Pergamus was facing false prophets - all these had in common what could end the life that had been given to them by grace = falling away from the faith.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 07:56 PM
He will spew them out into great tribulation and/or chastisement at the judgment seat, yet they will be eternally saved by their belief in the saving blood of Jesus Christ.

I agree that He will rebuke and chasten, but that they will yet be saved.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

RogerW
Aug 18th 2008, 08:11 PM
How can one be in Christ, without the Spirit?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Greetings Partaker,

The passage is speaking to the church (corporately) in Laodicea. It's a mistake to view this as speaking only to believers, since we are all aware that tares (unbelievers) grow together (in the corporate church) with the wheat (believers) until the harvest in the fullness of time (Mt. 13:30). The message to the church corporately in Laodicea is both a warning to some, and a promise "to him that overcometh".

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 08:14 PM
If he has fallen away from grace then he is not in Christ. Which was my point. It doesn't say they were never in Christ. Else the parable of the sower about the deceitfulness of riches choking out the life of the seed planted would have no real point of reference for us.

Ephesus left their love, Sardis let their garments get defiled and turned to dead works, Pergamus was facing false prophets - all these had in common what could end the life that had been given to them by grace = falling away from the faith.

We need grace for life, and grace to live.

Were does it say they have fallen away from grace?

Even if they had fallen away from grace (and in your understanding 'not in Christ') why would He then rebuke and chastise them?

If they had some warmth, they would be as a smouldering wick

Matt 12:20 A bruised reed He shall not break, and a smoldering wick He shall not quench, till He bring forth justice to victory;

crawfish
Aug 18th 2008, 08:17 PM
These are not born from above Christians, they are what I call "church players." They play like they are Christians by going to church, tithing, doing things in the name of Christ, but they were never born from above through Christ. They are pretenders, or lukewarm. Cold is the unsaved, Hot is the saved, the Christian pretenders are the lukewarm.

This requires some historical context. The Christians at that church would have received their water from the mountains. Cold water - water that was moving - was pure and safe to drink. Hot water - water that had been boiled - was also pure and safe to drink. Water that had been sitting idle would gather bacteria and could cause disease if you drank it.

In other words, both "hot" and "cold" refer to saved Christians. "Lukewarm" refers to Christians who claimed Christ but their hearts were still in the world.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 08:38 PM
So again; How will He spew them out, if they are not in Christ?

Because they are in the Laodicean church. Is everybody who attends church in Christ?

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 08:44 PM
Greetings Partaker,

The passage is speaking to the church (corporately) in Laodicea. It's a mistake to view this as speaking only to believers, since we are all aware that tares (unbelievers) grow together (in the corporate church) with the wheat (believers) until the harvest in the fullness of time (Mt. 13:30). The message to the church corporately in Laodicea is both a warning to some, and a blessing "to him that overcometh".

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger!

Yes I agree about it being corporate, and my view is that the Church in Laodicea would be spewed out. In that it would be dispersed, or powerless and fruitless until they repent.
Although tares will grow among the wheat, they are not part of 'the Church', for the Church 'IS' the Body of Christ (wheat)

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 08:53 PM
Because they are in the Laodicean church. Is everybody who attends church in Christ?

They were to be spewed out of Jesus Christ's mouth, not a church. There is a difference between 'attending a church meeting' and beinng in 'the Church'

You have to be 'in Christ' before you can be spewed 'out of Christ'

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 09:01 PM
You have to be 'in Christ' before you can be spewed 'out of Christ'

So, you think Christ was addressing the true born from above Christians in the church at Laodicea, and not the church players?

So, do you think that a spewing out of Christ's mouth means they are going to Hell? They lost their salvation? The scripture does not say they are going to Hell, just that they are vomited out of Christ's mouth. Do you equate this vomiting with a loss of salvationand them being Hell bound?

RogerW
Aug 18th 2008, 09:13 PM
Hi Roger!

Yes I agree about it being corporate, and my view is that the Church in Laodicea would be spewed out. In that it would be dispersed, or powerless and fruitless until they repent.
Although tares will grow among the wheat, they are not part of 'the Church', for the Church 'IS' the Body of Christ (wheat)

Greetings Partaker,

But where does God make this distinction in Scripture? The letters are written to the church corporately, and within the visible body "church" are found both the elect bride of Christ, and those who do not belong there. However, neither these seven letters nor the epistles make a distinction between who is there and belongs and who is there and does not belong. We only read the many warnings. The Bible speaks to the church in time corporately, and all who are in Christ heed the warnings, and receive of the blessings, but those who will be spewed out are never part of the bride of Christ individually, and are therefore not among those who overcome.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Aug 18th 2008, 09:59 PM
So, you think Christ was addressing the true born from above Christians in the church at Laodicea, and not the church players?

So, do you think that a spewing out of Christ's mouth means they are going to Hell? They lost their salvation? The scripture does not say they are going to Hell, just that they are vomited out of Christ's mouth. Do you equate this vomiting with a loss of salvation and them being Hell bound?

Hi Ron!

No. I hope I made that clear in post #23 and elsewhere.

dan p
Aug 18th 2008, 10:18 PM
Partaker in Christ, I see that you have a strong defense, in that statement , that they which are NOT in Christ He can't spue some thing that is not part of Christ.

RogerW
Aug 18th 2008, 10:42 PM
Partaker in Christ, I see that you have a strong defense, in that statement , that they which are NOT in Christ He can't spue some thing that is not part of Christ.

When we read "I will spue thee out of my mouth", it is not to those who are in Christ, it is to those who are in the corporate church, who are lukewarm.

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Nothing will enter the eternal kingdom that offend or do iniquity. So what/where is this kingdom where Christ will send His angels to gather out those who offend and work iniquity? It can only be the external kingdom of God, represented by the corporate church on earth. These are not believers, but they are in the kingdom (corporate church). All who remains lukewarm will be gathered out of the kingdom on earth (church), and be cast into a furnace of fire. They are not the overcomers.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Many Blessings,
RW

Mograce2U
Aug 19th 2008, 12:51 AM
Greetings Partaker,

But where does God make this distinction in Scripture? The letters are written to the church corporately, and within the visible body "church" are found both the elect bride of Christ, and those who do not belong there. However, neither these seven letters nor the epistles make a distinction between who is there and belongs and who is there and does not belong. We only read the many warnings. The Bible speaks to the church in time corporately, and all who are in Christ heed the warnings, and receive of the blessings, but those who will be spewed out are never part of the bride of Christ individually, and are therefore not among those who overcome.

Many Blessings,
RWHi Roger,
We do see that there were tares influencing the churches:

the Judaizers from the synagogue of Satan
Balaam type false prophets
Nicolaitins trying to take the rule
Jezebel teaching them occultic & idolatrous practices
persecutions from Satan

But the church of Ephesus did not have any of those excuses for why she had left her first love. And Sardis had defiled her garments and were practicing dead works, so sin would seem to be where their troubles came from. Laodicea didn't have any excuse either except for their trust in riches. Even Philadelphia & Smyrna who receive no rebuke are told to hold fast and overcome. That can only be because if they don't then falling away from the faith is what will have occurred.

I don't think you can summarize that only the unsaved are in view when it seems to be those who claim to have faith and have tasted its goodness that are being warned.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 19th 2008, 01:00 AM
Hi Roger,
We do see that there were tares influencing the churches:

the Judaizers from the synagogue of Satan
Balaam type false prophets
Nicolaitins trying to take the rule
Jezebel teaching them occultic & idolatrous practices
persecutions from Satan

But the church of Ephesus did not have any of those excuses for why she had left her first love. And Sardis had defiled her garments and were practicing dead works, so sin would seem to be where their troubles came from. Laodicea didn't have any excuse either except for their trust in riches. Even Philadelphia & Smyrna who receive no rebuke are told to hold fast and overcome. That can only be because if they don't then falling away from the faith is what will have occurred.

I don't think you can summarize that only the unsaved are in view when it seems to be those who claim to have faith and have tasted its goodness that are being warned.

Great post...you read my mind. I was working on a breakdown of all 7 churches to show that the message was clear and the "tares" were called out. IOW...He called a spade a spade and it wasn't a generic message to the masses as some would like us to believe.

RogerW
Aug 19th 2008, 03:17 AM
Hi Roger,
We do see that there were tares influencing the churches:

the Judaizers from the synagogue of Satan
Balaam type false prophets
Nicolaitins trying to take the rule
Jezebel teaching them occultic & idolatrous practices
persecutions from Satan

But the church of Ephesus did not have any of those excuses for why she had left her first love. And Sardis had defiled her garments and were practicing dead works, so sin would seem to be where their troubles came from. Laodicea didn't have any excuse either except for their trust in riches. Even Philadelphia & Smyrna who receive no rebuke are told to hold fast and overcome. That can only be because if they don't then falling away from the faith is what will have occurred.

I don't think you can summarize that only the unsaved are in view when it seems to be those who claim to have faith and have tasted its goodness that are being warned.

Greetings Robin,

The definitive statement I've high-lighted above. One who claims to have faith is not the same as one who truly has genuine faith. One will not overcome without saving faith, and even though one professes to have saving faith, the true and the false will be revealed in the fulness of time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Aug 19th 2008, 08:18 PM
When we read "I will spue thee out of my mouth", it is not to those who are in Christ, it is to those who are in the corporate church, who are lukewarm.

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Nothing will enter the eternal kingdom that offend or do iniquity. So what/where is this kingdom where Christ will send His angels to gather out those who offend and work iniquity? It can only be the external kingdom of God, represented by the corporate church on earth. These are not believers, but they are in the kingdom (corporate church). All who remains lukewarm will be gathered out of the kingdom on earth (church), and be cast into a furnace of fire. They are not the overcomers.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi RogerW!

I honestly see this messeage is to believers in Christ (wheat) not tares.

It is not an issue about Salvation, but of works.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

"I counsel thee to buy of me "
We know that Salvation is freely given, but the Lord counselled them 'to buy'

As for the works that they were doing, the Lord would spew them out. They would be unfruitful as an ecclesia (Gold, Silver and Preciouse Stones), and the Lord would work through individuals who would hear His voice, and open the door.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons



I think the best way I could liken this:

(I am not at all clued up on Catholicism, so forgive me this very poor analogy)

(don't cringe) but, Just suppose this was a Catholic church, but that church was not representing, or reflecting what the Catholic's teach and expect. The pope then sends them a letter saying, get your act together or your out. After failing to repent, he then shuts them down.
The Catholics would still be Catholic, but they would not have a church that the pope would recognise or support.

vinsight4u8
Aug 19th 2008, 09:56 PM
What is the Body of Christ doing in the Tribulation anyway ? Phil 3:20-21 ; 1 Thess 5:9 ; 1 Thess 5:23 ; and I Thess 1:10 for this can go several direction.

The next coming of Jesus can only be found in the direction of after the tribulation. 1 Thess. 5:9 speaks of salvation.

the church is not appointed to wrath

okay then, what is she appointed for?

salvaton

So the church should understand the salvation time is after the tribulation.

Hebrews 9:28
Rev. 19:1-2
ch 12 verses 10-11,17

Add in that several verses
speak as to Jesus waits in heaven till
time to make His enemies His footstool.

how could He return before or during the trib and take down the enemy?
then how would the trib ever happen?

divaD
Aug 19th 2008, 10:01 PM
Cold is the unsaved, Hot is the saved, the Christian pretenders are the lukewarm.



If this is true, then why doesn't Jesus also spue out the cold? Remember, Jesus stated, I would rather that ye were cold or hot. So going by what you are suggesting, Jesus doesn't mind if they are unsaved, being that cold represents unsaved, but He won't tolerate a pretender, being that lukewarm represents the pretender.

Why would Jesus not also spue out the unsaved(cold?), when the Bible clearly shows that He ultimately will, since no unsaved person can nor will inherit everlasting life?

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 10:15 PM
So again; How will He spew them out, if they are not in Christ?Awesome question. This is the kind of stuff that makes people give up on taking the bible literally and end up trying to find of spiritual way to apply it. Doctrinally speaking, though, this IS applying to 7 tribulation churches (buildings with believers and unbelievers in them) that have a condition on their salvation that is outside of grace through faith. They are required to NOT take the mark of the beast, they have to keep the commandments, the Jews have to keep the sabbath again, and the Gentile believers HAVE to treat the Jews very well or they will be rejected by God (Matthew 25:40).

RogerW
Aug 19th 2008, 11:51 PM
Hi RogerW!

I honestly see this messeage is to believers in Christ (wheat) not tares.

It is not an issue about Salvation, but of works.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

"I counsel thee to buy of me "
We know that Salvation is freely given, but the Lord counselled them 'to buy'

As for the works that they were doing, the Lord would spew them out. They would be unfruitful as an ecclesia (Gold, Silver and Preciouse Stones), and the Lord would work through individuals who would hear His voice, and open the door.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons



I think the best way I could liken this:

(I am not at all clued up on Catholicism, so forgive me this very poor analogy)

(don't cringe) but, Just suppose this was a Catholic church, but that church was not representing, or reflecting what the Catholic's teach and expect. The pope then sends them a letter saying, get your act together or your out. After failing to repent, he then shuts them down.
The Catholics would still be Catholic, but they would not have a church that the pope would recognise or support.

Hi Partaker,

I don't altogether disagree with you here. It is indeed about works, however the letter is written to the church that is made up of both wheat and tares. I do not believe that Christ would ever threaten to "spue out" His elect, because salvation is eternal. Those who are in Christ will overcome, but they too are part of an imperfect body, with imperfect works.

I don't know about you, but I have been part of a church that this letter speaks to. The attitude was "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." But "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Therefore I was able to discern through the power of the Spirit, so I heeded the warnings (heard Him knock) and left that church. I was rebuked, chastened, and I repented, so I am among them that overcome. God opened my ears to "hear what the Spirit sayeth unto the churches."

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Aug 20th 2008, 08:12 PM
Hi Partaker,

I don't altogether disagree with you here. It is indeed about works, however the letter is written to the church that is made up of both wheat and tares. I do not believe that Christ would ever threaten to "spue out" His elect, because salvation is eternal. Those who are in Christ will overcome, but they too are part of an imperfect body, with imperfect works.

I don't know about you, but I have been part of a church that this letter speaks to. The attitude was "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." But "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Therefore I was able to discern through the power of the Spirit, so I heeded the warnings (heard Him knock) and left that church. I was rebuked, chastened, and I repented, so I am among them that overcome. God opened my ears to "hear what the Spirit sayeth unto the churches."

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi again RogerW!

I know from many of your other posts, that we are very much reading from the same book. We also have a similar experience in Church.

Salvation is eternal indeed.

We have kinship and fellowship. Our kinship cannot be broken, but our fellowship can.
The point I try to make, is that this passage of scripture (and the spewing out) has nothing to do with the matter of Salvation. It is about works and rewards, repentance and chastisement.

Corporately the works were wood, hay and stubble, and the Lord wants Gold (God's Glory), Silver (Purchased in Christ) and Precious Stone (by the Holy Spirit)

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe this verse is used out of context in many alter calls. I have difficulty in excepting that this verse speaks of Christ, standing and knocking at the door of someone's heart, waiting for them to open the door, and invite Him into their hearts.

I tend to believe that this verse speaks of Christ being left outside of their meeting together, and what they (Corporately) were doing. He was standing at the door of their meeting, and fellowshipping. Hence, if anyone (individual) heard His voice, and opened the door, He would come and have fellowship (sup) with them.

RogerW
Aug 20th 2008, 08:37 PM
Hi again RogerW!

I know from many of your other posts, that we are very much reading from the same book. We also have a similar experience in Church.

Salvation is eternal indeed.

We have kinship and fellowship. Our kinship cannot be broken, but our fellowship can.
The point I try to make, is that this passage of scripture (and the spewing out) has nothing to do with the matter of Salvation. It is about works and rewards, repentance and chastisement.

Corporately the works were wood, hay and stubble, and the Lord wants Gold (God's Glory), Silver (Purchased in Christ) and Precious Stone (by the Holy Spirit)

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe this verse is used out of context in many alter calls. I have difficulty in excepting that this verse speaks of Christ, standing and knocking at the door of someone's heart, waiting for them to open the door, and invite Him into their hearts.

I tend to believe that this verse speaks of Christ being left outside of their meeting together, and what they (Corporately) were doing. He was standing at the door of their meeting, and fellowshipping. Hence, if anyone (individual) heard His voice, and opened the door, He would come and have fellowship (sup) with them.

Hi Partaker,

I get what you're saying, and I truly cannot find any disagreement in what you have said. I too view knocking at the door in the same way you do.

Many, Many Blessings,
RW

Christian dog love
Aug 20th 2008, 08:49 PM
He is speaking to a church but they are not really for him or aganist him they just kind of sit there but they do claim Christ but that doesn't really have to mean anything.