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legoman
Aug 14th 2008, 04:49 AM
What is the difference between the following?:

1. Heaven
2. Kingdom of Heaven
3. Kingdom of God
4. The millenium

Here is my understanding (my best guess at this late hour without looking it all up):

The millenium is the thousand years when Christ reign's after he returns and after the 1st resurrection. Is this also the Kingdom of Heaven/God? Or is the Kingdom of Heaven now?

Heaven would be after the end of all ages after the 2nd resurrection/judgement.

The terminology of Heaven and Kingdom of Heaven always confused me.

Legoman

Joey Porter
Aug 14th 2008, 12:59 PM
I am fairly certain that the Kingdom of "heaven" and the Kingdom of "God" are one in the same. But I am also certain that the Kingdom of God/heaven (in its fulness) and "heaven" are not the same thing.

I think a lot of folks presume that heaven and the kingdom of heaven in its fulness are the same thing, but scripturally, this is not the case. "Heaven" or "the heavens" is simply the spiritual realm where things are taking place that we can't see on this earth. It's not a "place" so much as it is a dimension, where wars between angels and principalities are all carried out.

The kingdom of heaven, while it is present and is in us and all around us, will not be realized in its fulness until Yahshua returns to reign with the elect, those who will be a part of the first resurrection along with those who will be transformed into imperishable bodies in the twinkling of an eye.
It is at that time, in that kingdom, that the most important work in the history of creation (aside from Yahshua's work on the cross) will be carried out.

legoman
Aug 18th 2008, 03:51 AM
I am fairly certain that the Kingdom of "heaven" and the Kingdom of "God" are one in the same. But I am also certain that the Kingdom of God/heaven (in its fulness) and "heaven" are not the same thing.

I think a lot of folks presume that heaven and the kingdom of heaven in its fulness are the same thing, but scripturally, this is not the case. "Heaven" or "the heavens" is simply the spiritual realm where things are taking place that we can't see on this earth. It's not a "place" so much as it is a dimension, where wars between angels and principalities are all carried out.

The kingdom of heaven, while it is present and is in us and all around us, will not be realized in its fulness until Yahshua returns to reign with the elect, those who will be a part of the first resurrection along with those who will be transformed into imperishable bodies in the twinkling of an eye.
It is at that time, in that kingdom, that the most important work in the history of creation (aside from Yahshua's work on the cross) will be carried out.

This sounds like the Kingdom of Heaven takes place (or reaches it fullness) in the millenium. That is what I kind of thought.

What will be the "most important" work that is carried out in the kingdom?

Another question:

Is it possible to not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and still enter heaven?

BroRog
Aug 18th 2008, 05:33 AM
What is the difference between the following?:

1. Heaven
2. Kingdom of Heaven
3. Kingdom of God
4. The millenium

Here is my understanding (my best guess at this late hour without looking it all up):

The millenium is the thousand years when Christ reign's after he returns and after the 1st resurrection. Is this also the Kingdom of Heaven/God? Or is the Kingdom of Heaven now?

Heaven would be after the end of all ages after the 2nd resurrection/judgement.

The terminology of Heaven and Kingdom of Heaven always confused me.

Legoman

The term "heaven" in the phrase "kingdom of heaven" is a metonymy. It's the same thing as saying "kingdom of God", substituting the abode of God for the person of God.

News broadcasters do this all the time when they refer to the "Whitehouse", when they actually mean "the President and his administration.

Rufus_1611
Aug 18th 2008, 11:33 AM
This sounds like the Kingdom of Heaven takes place (or reaches it fullness) in the millenium. That is what I kind of thought.

What will be the "most important" work that is carried out in the kingdom?

Another question:

Is it possible to not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and still enter heaven? Yes, it is possible. The Kingdom of Heaven/God is a reward or inheritance to the faithful servants of God. Those that hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" at the judgment seat of Christ, will enter into this age. Those that are washed by the blood but are disobedient servants, will be cast into outer darkness during this period but will be part of the second resurrection and will enter into the third age because of their belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

Believers should be striving to take part in the first resurrection, that they might be priests of God and of Christ and that they might reign with him during the millennium. Those believers that live carnal lives because they think they are under grace and not under the law and believe that this is a license to sin, will be scourged for a time and then be part of the second resurrection due to the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

legoman
Aug 18th 2008, 03:28 PM
Yes, it is possible. The Kingdom of Heaven/God is a reward or inheritance to the faithful servants of God. Those that hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" at the judgment seat of Christ, will enter into this age. Those that are washed by the blood but are disobedient servants, will be cast into outer darkness during this period but will be part of the second resurrection and will enter into the third age because of their belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

Believers should be striving to take part in the first resurrection, that they might be priests of God and of Christ and that they might reign with him during the millennium. Those believers that live carnal lives because they think they are under grace and not under the law and believe that this is a license to sin, will be scourged for a time and then be part of the second resurrection due to the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Ok this is interesting. What would happen to believers if they didn't make it into the millenium? Are they dead in the grave, in hades (I believe this also means grave), or in hell? What does the scripture say? They just miss out on this "reward", but then are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgement, along with unbelievers?

Another question: I believe it says somewhere the Kingdom of God is now. But I also feel it is referring to the millenium. Anyway, is it possible to be in the Kingdom of God, but then not make it to heaven somehow?

I am looking for scriptural answers on this. Can anyone help? I guess I'm looking for some kind of a timeline of what happens to believers/unbelievers when they die. I'm sure I will get many different answers on this :) so please try to back it up with scripture.

Thanks,
Legoman

Rufus_1611
Aug 18th 2008, 03:50 PM
Ok this is interesting. What would happen to believers if they didn't make it into the millenium?

They would spend time in outer darkness...
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 25:30

Are they dead in the grave, in hades (I believe this also means grave), or in hell? I believe they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in Hell...
"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." - Luke 12:46

What does the scripture say? They just miss out on this "reward", but then are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgement, along with unbelievers?Yes. They will be resurrected for judgment at the Great White Throne. The unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire...
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14-15
and the believers will have their tears wiped away...
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Another question: I believe it says somewhere the Kingdom of God is now. But I also feel it is referring to the millenium. Anyway, is it possible to be in the Kingdom of God, but then not make it to heaven somehow?There are people who will be in non-glorified bodies that will still have an opportunity to choose God or choose the devil. There is a rebellion at the end of the millennium that demonstrates this. However, the Christians in this age who enter into the millennium in glorified bodies will enter into the third age without exception.


I am looking for scriptural answers on this. Can anyone help? I guess I'm looking for some kind of a timeline of what happens to believers/unbelievers when they die. I'm sure I will get many different answers on this :) so please try to back it up with scripture.Believers in this age after they die or are raptured - face the JSOC
JSOC - Profitable servants/believers will reign with Christ in the millenial kingdom
JSOC - Unprofitable servants/believers will be cast into outer darkness during the millenium
Unbelievers in this age after they die - go to hell
GWT - Unprofitable servants/believers will enter into the third age by the blood of the lamb
GWT - Unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire
People resurrected or born in the millenial age and are not in glorified bodies - will choose God or the Devil. Those who choose God will enter into the third age, those who choose the Devil will be cast into the Lake of Fire



Thanks,
Legoman

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 01:19 AM
They would spend time in outer darkness...
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 25:30
I believe they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in Hell...
"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." - Luke 12:46
Yes. They will be resurrected for judgment at the Great White Throne. The unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire...
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14-15
and the believers will have their tears wiped away...
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4
There are people who will be in non-glorified bodies that will still have an opportunity to choose God or choose the devil. There is a rebellion at the end of the millennium that demonstrates this. However, the Christians in this age who enter into the millennium in glorified bodies will enter into the third age without exception.

Believers in this age after they die or are raptured - face the JSOC
JSOC - Profitable servants/believers will reign with Christ in the millenial kingdom
JSOC - Unprofitable servants/believers will be cast into outer darkness during the millenium
Unbelievers in this age after they die - go to hell
GWT - Unprofitable servants/believers will enter into the third age by the blood of the lamb
GWT - Unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire
People resurrected or born in the millenial age and are not in glorified bodies - will choose God or the Devil. Those who choose God will enter into the third age, those who choose the Devil will be cast into the Lake of Fire

Sorry, my brain is not working. What does JSOC stand for again? (I know GWT)

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 01:32 AM
Judgment Seat of Christ, I assume.

As I see it, the "Great White Throne Judgment" is the same thing as the "Judgment Seat of Christ."

Read Revelation 11. In the second half of the chapter, people cry out that the world is now part of Christ's kingdom, and that Christ will "reign for ever and ever." Immediately following this, the elders say "Now the time for the judging of the dead is come." Revelation 11 connects the judging of the dead with Christ's kingdom having encompassed the world. Skip forward to Revelation 20:11-15. Here we see the seating of the white throne, and the judging of the dead.

Technically speaking, the reader of the book could from the ending of Revelation 11, skip forward to Revelation 20:11-15, and it would be entirely coherent. And why not? Revelation 11 declares that the judging of the dead has come as a result of Christ's kingdom coming upon the world, and in Revelation 20:11-15 we see the One sitting upon His throne and judging the dead.

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 02:04 AM
What is the difference between the following?:

1. Heaven
2. Kingdom of Heaven
3. Kingdom of God
4. The millenium

There are 3 heavens. Number 2 of your list, the Kingdom of Heaven is one of those heavens. As one writer wrote, the millenium is the Kingdom of heaven fully realized. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. It is what sinners enter into once they become believers and are saved. The Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are not the same, but they do harmonize in some areas.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same. Where Mark and Luke say "Kingdom of God," Matthew instead says "Kingdom of Heaven." The three authors use them in exactly the same manner and even in the exact same sayings attributed to Jesus. There is no reason to infer they are different considering the three authors use the two sayings in every way the same.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 04:00 AM
In response to the OP:

Heaven, in the sense you're asking, is the abode "outside" of the physical world. Biblically speaking, there are three "heavens," and the word for "heaven" can equally be applied to each of the three. The first "heaven" is simply the sky, where the birds fly. The second "heaven" is what we call "space," where the stars and planets rest. The third "heaven" is the heavenly abode, where the angelic host, the 24 elders, the four living creatures, the throne of God reside. Taking the entirety of the Bible into account, one can assume that when Paul spoke of the "third heaven," he may simply have been speaking of the heaven, as opposed to some special third level of the heavenly abode.

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is not part of the heavenly abode, at least in the sense that the Bible teaches it. Daniel 2 teaches that the "Kingdom of God" would cover the world, symbolically presenting it as a small rock that grew to cover the world as a mountain. Christ taught that the Kingdom of Heaven could not be said to be "Here" or "There," because it was beyond physical limitations. By the time John wrote the Revelation, he plainly states that he is a brother in the Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is: one single kingdom that is from God in heaven, upon the world but not of the world, and not confined to any singular place. The Pharisees were capable of preventing people from entering it, but John the Baptist and Jesus claimed the Kingdom was "near" during their ministries.

The "Lord's Prayer" tells us exactly what it is: "Let Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The Kingdom of Heaven is "[God's] will be[ing] done on earth as it is [done] in heaven." Whenever we find scenes of heaven in the Bible, they are (almost) always accompanied by people prostrating themselves before God to worship Him. The earth, however, is full of rebellion and people who hate God. Having God's Kingdom of Heaven upon the earth means bringing the earth to be as heaven, for God's will to be done upon earth as His will is done in heaven. So the Kingdom of God/Heaven is a spiritual kingdom, consisting of all peoples who worship God, just as the people of heaven do.

Outright, Christ claimed that "The Kingdom of God is within you," as recorded in the gospel of Luke. (The Greek word here literally denotes "within;" the only other time it is used in the NT is to refer to cleaning "that which is within" a cup.)

Spreading the Kingdom of God/Heaven is our goal while we remain on earth. We are to advance the Kingdom so that it covers the whole world, as Daniel 2 depicted a small rock (the "early church" time period of the Kingdom) growing into a mountain that covered the earth (something that has the last 2000 years has proven to be coming true).

The Thousand Year is a time period that Christians who died by the hand of the beast (Revelation 13) will rule alongside Christ as His priests. From that point on, the Thousand Years is only spoken of within the realm of the Revelation, so whether it is literal or symbolic of a longer (or shorter) period of time is up to interpretation.

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 04:12 AM
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same. Where Mark and Luke say "Kingdom of God," Matthew instead says "Kingdom of Heaven." The three authors use them in exactly the same manner and even in the exact same sayings attributed to Jesus. There is no reason to infer they are different considering the three authors use the two sayings in every way the same.There is plenty of reasons to put a difference between the two. For instance, the Kingdom of God is universal, while the Kingdom of Heaven is mesianic and davidic. The KOG is entered only by the new birth, while there are unbelievers in the KOH (Matt. 13:3; 8:12). The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net (Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50) are not spoken of the KOG. The KOG is "not meat and drink," while the KOH is!
There are a lot more distinctions but a duck is not a chicken, a dog is not a cat, a monkey is not a human, and the KOG is NOT the KOH, although they do have some similarities.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 12:55 PM
Saying the two are different simply because the three different gospels give different explanations isn't sufficient enough. The three gospels have more than enough of the same parables/quotes of Jesus that are attributed to both the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.


The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net (Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50) are not spoken of the KOG.Nitpicking. Just because Matthew has extra parables to describe the Kingdom compared to Mark doesn't mean they're different. Just because one person describes a soda can as being "red" and another describes it as being "red and white" doesn't mean they're talking about a different can just because one gave more explanation.


there are unbelievers in the KOH (Matt. 13:3; 8:12)."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

And again, you should know that the three gospels are not exactly the same, nor do they tell everything that the other two tell. So just that Matthew or Mark or Luke may tell certain things differently about the Kingdom that are absent from the other two doesn't mean they're describing entirely different Kingdoms.

Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'"

Matthew 13:10 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

Or...

Mark 4:30-32 Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest seed you plant in the ground. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds of the air can perch in its shade."

Matthew 13:31-32 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

They're the same thing. Saying otherwise is nitpicking.

Besides, Mark's gospel outright says...

"With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand."

Mark directly states that Jesus used many parables, so it's easy to see that Matthew makes use of these other parables, while Mark only mentions them in passing. That doesn't mean they're different Kingdoms.

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 02:40 PM
What is the difference between the following?:

1. Heaven
2. Kingdom of Heaven
3. Kingdom of God
4. The millenium

I will take a stab at 1 through 3:

1. Heaven: Heaven is "God's dimension" or "God's space" - it is also "where" Jesus is right now. And it is the place where dead saints "rest" (perhaps consciously) until they are resurrected on a remade earth. Heaven is not a "place" in our Universe - as in "up in the sky somewhere". But it is a real "space". Heaven is temporary. As Revelation 21 tells us, heaven and earth will ultimately merge.

2. Despite widespread belief to the contrary, the Kingdom of Heaven is not the same thing as "Heaven". The term "Kingdom of Heaven" refers to the imminent inbreaking of God's rule over this world. It is a description of a world run by God. The Kingdom of Heaven is here right now. But, as another poster has said, it will only be fully realized at some point in the future. The parables are stories about the Kingdom of Heaven - about what the world looks like when God is running it. And Jesus has already been installed as King. He is an "absentee" King in a sense, but in another sense He is not. One of the biggest errors of the church is not understanding that the Kingdom of Heaven is already here and underway.

3. The term "Kingdom of God" means the same thing as the "Kingdom of Heaven".

Oberon
Aug 19th 2008, 06:50 PM
I think it may be important to point out a few things (which you probably know already, but just in case).

Kingdom of God (basileias tou theou) and Kingdom of heaven (basileias ton ouranon) both use the Greek noun basileia (Aramaic malkut) which the English word "kingdom" just doesn't quite capture. Both the underlying Greek and Aramaic have the connotation not only of a "physical" kingdom, but also of "rule" or "reign." For this reason, the phrase "Kingdom of God/Heaven" may also be translated (and some have done this) "the reign of God" or the "rule of Heaven."

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 08:14 PM
Markeward, so, you can actually read the bible without taking it literally? Tell me, how can you even have eternal security if the two kingdoms are the same. The punishment for an unprofitable servant in the kingdom of heaven is being thrown into HELL. The punishment for the kingdom of God is just getting your rewards taken away. Don't ever mistake the two- they are not the same.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 09:50 PM
Markeward, so, you can actually read the bible without taking it literally?I'm not sure what this question is driving at exactly... what am I not taking "literally"?


Tell me, how can you even have eternal security if the two kingdoms are the same.Again, can you elaborate on this question? I don't know what exactly you're asking here. The question you're trying to ask seems like it's deeper than the words written here.


The punishment for an unprofitable servant in the kingdom of heaven is being thrown into HELL.The problem with this statement is that you're claiming "unprofitable servants" will make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ Himself said only those who do God's will (i.e. they're "profitable servants") will make it in.


Both the underlying Greek and Aramaic have the connotation not only of a "physical" kingdom, but also of "rule" or "reign."You make good points about the actual Greek word being used, in that it can mean "rule" or "reign." It can also mean "base" or "foundation" (etymology wise, at least: basileia is the origin of our word "base").

But whatever connotations of physicality the word may have had to begin with (I'm not so sure this connotation is there, but I'll grant it anyway) is taken away with Christ's statement that "You won't be able to say 'Look, here it is,' or 'Behold, it's over there,' for the Kingdom of God does not come by careful observation," where He emphasizes the spiritual attributes of the Kingdom, and almost completely shuts down any real physicality of the kingdom.

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure what this question is driving at exactly... what am I not taking "literally"?

Again, can you elaborate on this question? I don't know what exactly you're asking here. The question you're trying to ask seems like it's deeper than the words written here.

The problem with this statement is that you're claiming "unprofitable servants" will make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, when Christ Himself said only those who do God's will (i.e. they're "profitable servants") will make it in. The parable of the talents is given BOTH in matthew and in luke with BOTH kingdoms given but two DIFFERENT punishments for the same offense. Matthew 25:30 has the servant going to HELL. Luke 19:24 has the servant getting his rewards taken away for the same offense. One is the physical kingdom of heaven and the other is the spiritual kingdom of God.

vinsight4u8
Aug 19th 2008, 10:21 PM
Judgment Seat of Christ, I assume.

As I see it, the "Great White Throne Judgment" is the same thing as the "Judgment Seat of Christ."

Read Revelation 11. In the second half of the chapter, people cry out that the world is now part of Christ's kingdom, and that Christ will "reign for ever and ever." Immediately following this, the elders say "Now the time for the judging of the dead is come." Revelation 11 connects the judging of the dead with Christ's kingdom having encompassed the world. Skip forward to Revelation 20:11-15. Here we see the seating of the white throne, and the judging of the dead.

Technically speaking, the reader of the book could from the ending of Revelation 11, skip forward to Revelation 20:11-15, and it would be entirely coherent. And why not? Revelation 11 declares that the judging of the dead has come as a result of Christ's kingdom coming upon the world, and in Revelation 20:11-15 we see the One sitting upon His throne and judging the dead.

What kind of 24 elders are first found in Rev. 11:16?

At the 7th trumpet where are the 24 elders at first?

All Rev. 11 s 7 trumpet message is doing is announcing that the time has come for certain things to start.

The taking back of the thone site in Jerualem is what this is about.

The kingdoms of the world become His
because Jerusalem is the place to rule all the nations.

But - He has yet to take down the beast over the rest of the world.

To add to Rev. 11:16 and what type of 24 elders are first found here - see also the end of Rev. 4.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 10:31 PM
The parable of the talents is given BOTH in matthew and in luke with BOTH kingdoms given but two DIFFERENT punishments for the same offense. Matthew 25:30 has the servant going to HELL. Luke 19:24 has the servant getting his rewards taken away for the same offense. One is the physical kingdom of heaven and the other is the spiritual kingdom of God.The amount of differences is, again, nitpicking, given that the overall message of the story is the same.

The punishments described are as this:


'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' ... He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over themóbring them here and kill them in front of me."


with BOTH kingdoms given but two DIFFERENT punishments for the same offense. Matthew 25:30 has the servant going to HELL. Luke 19:24 has the servant getting his rewards taken away for the same offense.Um... in both parables the servant has his rewards taken away, followed by the imminent death of the servant.

The focus of the parable is the punishment of people who reject Christ as their King and refuse to do the things He would have them do, not that the Kingdom of God is strictly spiritual while the Kingdom of Heaven is strictly physical.

Just because two gospels recorded one parable with slight differences doesn't mean they were speaking of two different subjects (the Kingdom of God v. the Kingdom of Heaven).

Staying consistent with the idea that slight differences means the subjects are entirely different, you'd have to believe that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 don't speak of the same events, since Mark 13 says Jesus spoke of being flogged in synagogues while Matthew 24 doesn't, and that Matthew 24 says Jesus spoke of not going into the desert while Mark 13 doesn't. According to the logic you're using, you'd have to believe Mark 13 and Matthew 24 speak of similar-yet-entirely-different events simply because of slight differences between the two accounts.

At this rate, you might as well say Jesus was crucified three different times because He is recorded as saying one thing in two gospels ("Eloi Eloi lama sabacthani"), and two other things in the other two gospels ("Into Your hands I commit My spirit" and "It is finished").

As should be said, the absence or addition of details in certain gospels compared to the others, or even the small variations in certain events, stories, sermons, prophecies, and parables between the gospels, does not mean the topics of such things were different.

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 10:43 PM
The amount of differences is, again, nitpicking... Not a chance, unless that's what the salvation issue is to you, just "nitpicking."


At this rate, you might as well say Jesus was crucified three different times because He is recorded as saying one thing in two gospels ("Eloi Eloi lama sabacthani"), and two other things in the other two gospels ("Into Your hands I commit My spirit" and "It is finished"). All your sarcasm and shenanigans aside, let's look at this intelligently. Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are the same, huh? That would mean by proper mathematical deliniation that heaven and God are the same and can be used interchangeably. ok.

1. Birds fly in heaven, they do not fly in God.
2. There are clouds in heaven, there are no clouds in God or God's kingdom.
3. God created the heavens; they did not create him.
4. God was in the beginning; the heavens are not.
5. God is a Spirit and cannot be seen.
6. The heavens are material; you can see them.
7. God has a moral nature; the universe is a-moral.
8. God controls the heavens, they do not control him.
9. The heavens declare the glory of God, not the other way around.
10. The heavens contain darkness, and in God there is no darkness.
11. The heavens can be populated, God cannot.

The kingdoms do harmonize in only 13 places, the rest of the time they differentiate and conflict with each other.

Oberon
Aug 19th 2008, 10:48 PM
You make good points about the actual Greek word being used, in that it can mean "rule" or "reign." It can also mean "base" or "foundation" (etymology wise, at least: basileia is the origin of our word "base").

But whatever connotations of physicality the word may have had to begin with (I'm not so sure this connotation is there, but I'll grant it anyway) is taken away with Christ's statement that "You won't be able to say 'Look, here it is,' or 'Behold, it's over there,' for the Kingdom of God does not come by careful observation," where He emphasizes the spiritual attributes of the Kingdom, and almost completely shuts down any real physicality of the kingdom.


It is certainly true that often enough it seems "kingdom" is used without any physicality being possible. At other times, however, this is not the case, e.g. Mt 11.12/Lk. 16.16 where it is "seized" and "suffers violence", or in Mk. 9.47 where it is "entered" (eiselthein eis ten basileian tou theou). To entirely seperate basiliea from physicality is, I believe, to misunderstand its use.

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 11:12 PM
Not a chance, unless that's what the salvation issue is to you, just "nitpicking." I don't see how a friendly debate over the nature of the Kingdom of God/Heaven is an issue that is going to threaten my salvation...



All your sarcasm and shenanigans aside, let's look at this intelligently.

Who said I was being sarcastic? Please don't assume things about me, at least not my attitude; in this case you assume I'm being sarcastic when I am not.
You're calling my Biblical research "shenanigans" simply because we disagree?
You're plainly stating that I'm not looking at this "intelligently," again, simply because we disagree. I find that insulting.

Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are the same, huh? That would mean by proper mathematical deliniation that heaven and God are the same and can be used interchangeably. ok.This argument is silly, plain and simple. English isn't the same thing as mathematics.

No one, including you I'm sure, gets bent out of shape because someone may use "the Empire of Rome" and "the Empire of Julius Caesar" synonymously. Of course no one expects you to be able to drive a chariot in Julius Caesar as you could drive a chariot in Rome, and no one claims that "Rome" and "Julius Caesar" are synonymous... but the "Empire of Rome" and the "Empire of Julius Caesar" are synonymous.

Same thing with the Kingdom. Just because "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" can be used synonymously doesn't mean that "Heaven" and "God" are synonymous.

Just read Daniel 2.



"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed."
Julius Caesar of Rome sets up an Empire.
Thus, we can call this the "Empire of Julius Caesar of Rome."
Thus, we can shorten this to...
"Empire of Julius Caesar," removing the reference to Rome
"Empire of Rome," removing the reference to Julius Caesar

And as such, the two whole phrases ("Empire of Julius Caesar" and "Empire of Rome") can be used entirely synonymously without requiring the differing words ("Julius Caesar" who is the ruler, and "Rome" which is the place the ruler is stated to be "of") to be synonymous.
Likewise...
"God of Heaven" (per Daniel 2) sets up a Kingdom.
Thus, we can call this the "Kingdom of God of Heaven."
Thus, we can shorten this to...
"Kingdom of God," removing the reference to Heaven
"Kingdom of Heaven," removing the reference to God

And as such, the two whole phrases ("Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven") can be used entirely synonymously without requiring the differing words ("God" who is the ruler, and "Heaven" which is the place the ruler is stated to be "of") to be synonymous.

Jerry4America
Aug 19th 2008, 11:52 PM
I don't see how a friendly debate over the nature of the Kingdom of God/Heaven is an issue that is going to threaten my salvation... That is not what I meant. I meant that people often read the Bible and they read say, for instance, the verse that says, "those that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved," and they think that they CAN lose their salvation. The same is with this verse in question in Matthew. They think that since (supposedly) the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one in the same, then it is possible that they can LOSE their salvation because the unprofitable servant did IN MATTHEW, but not in LUKE. Do you finally understand the problem? I sure hope so.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 04:54 AM
Judgment Seat of Christ, I assume.


Yeah that would be it.



As I see it, the "Great White Throne Judgment" is the same thing as the "Judgment Seat of Christ."

Read Revelation 11. In the second half of the chapter, people cry out that the world is now part of Christ's kingdom, and that Christ will "reign for ever and ever." Immediately following this, the elders say "Now the time for the judging of the dead is come." Revelation 11 connects the judging of the dead with Christ's kingdom having encompassed the world. Skip forward to Revelation 20:11-15. Here we see the seating of the white throne, and the judging of the dead.
Just a side question here. How does the Revelation 11 verse fit with other verses in Corinthinans 15:24-26

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

These verses seem to say that Christ's reign will come to an end. But Rev. 11:15 says he will reign for ever and ever.

Obviously I'm missing something here.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 04:58 AM
Just because two gospels recorded one parable with slight differences doesn't mean they were speaking of two different subjects (the Kingdom of God v. the Kingdom of Heaven).


Yeah I would have to agree with you, Kingdom of Heaven = Kingdom of God.

markedward
Aug 20th 2008, 12:54 PM
Yeah that would be it.

Just a side question here. How does the Revelation 11 verse fit with other verses in Corinthinans 15:24-26

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

These verses seem to say that Christ's reign will come to an end. But Rev. 11:15 says he will reign for ever and ever.

Obviously I'm missing something here.Revelation repeatedly states Christ will reign forever, and Daniel 7:13-14 states that the Son of Man's kingdom will be everlasting, so the rest of Scripture undisputedly states that Jesus will rule eternally.

In that course, here is a more literal translation of the text:

Then cometh the end, when he delivereth up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Many commentaries I've read seem to agree that Christ isn't giving up His own authority, but that He is "delivering," or, in a more modern word, bringing the kingdom to God, following the "put down" of all other authority and the removal of death.

While disputable, this interpretation is pretty harmonious with what we read in the Revelation: Christ "puts down" all other authority, there is the Judgment Seat of Christ/White Throne Judgment where death is cast into the lake of fire, and following this, in chapters 21-22 we are shown a new world where God "dwells" with man, that Jesus delivered, or brought, mankind (His Kingdom) to God.

But that's just one interpretation.

Jerry4America
Aug 21st 2008, 01:17 AM
Yeah I would have to agree with you, Kingdom of Heaven = Kingdom of God.The following verses show that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are not the same: Luke 17:21; Romans 14:17; I Corinthians 15:50; II Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 6:12. Read them please.

markedward
Aug 21st 2008, 02:37 AM
And... how do they show that they're different Kingdoms?


Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."Jesus tells His disciples just how hard it is to enter "the Kingdom of Heaven."

Then He says "AGAIN I tell you" when He tells them just how hard it is to enter "the Kingdom of God."

Why would He say "AGAIN I tell you" if He was telling them something entirely different? The fact that He says He is telling them "again" means He's reiterating some point that He already made. In this case, He is saying the same thing twice in a row: it's really hard to get enter the Kingdom.

markedward
Aug 21st 2008, 05:41 AM
Jerry4America: I read back in your posts, and I'm confused on your stance. I understand that you believe the KOG and the KOH are different kingdoms... but in some cases you say that the KOG focuses on the spiritual while the KOH focuses on the physical, and another time you reverse the statements.


The Kingdom of God is spiritual.KOG = spiritual.

The KOG is "not meat and drink," while the KOH is!KOG = spiritual focus
KOH = physical focus.

The punishment for an unprofitable servant in the kingdom of heaven is being thrown into HELL. The punishment for the kingdom of God is just getting your rewards taken away.KOG = physical punishment
KOH = spiritual punishment

One is the physical kingdom of heaven and the other is the spiritual kingdom of God.KOG = spiritual kingdom
KOH = physical kingdom

I think you may have gotten your statements backwards in the third quote above, since it's the only one that says KOG is physical and KOH is spiritual.

Either way. You adamantly state that the Kingdom of God is strictly spiritual and not physical. Specifically, you stated:


The KOG is "not meat and drink," while the KOH is!Here, you are interpreting Romans 14:17 a little out of context. The verse says that the Kingdom of God is not a matter of "eating and drinking," but of "righteousness, peace and joy."

The verse is not saying "there is no meat or drink in the Kingdom of God." It is pointing out what the focus of the Kingdom of God is. Earlier in the passage, Paul points out favoring the weaker brother, in an example of not eating a certain food. But then he goes on to say, the Kingdom of God isn't about the eating the right food or drinking the right drink... it's about being righteous.

Furthermore, the manner in which you interpret the verse, claiming it states that there is no food or drink at all in the KOG because it's absolutely non-physical, contradicts what Jesus Himself said:


"For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God. ... For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."Here, Jesus directly says He will "eat it again" at the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God, that when "the Kingdom of God comes" He will "drink again of the fruit of the vine."

There is "meat and drink" in the Kingdom of God, unlike what you say, but the focus of the Kingdom of God is not upon those.

markedward
Aug 21st 2008, 05:46 AM
I have made a table that compares the gospel usage of the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven."

[ Click here (http://home.mchsi.com/~avegen/kingdom.htm) ]

threebigrocks
Aug 21st 2008, 09:09 PM
Word of wisdom - please lay out your arguement with scripture to back up what is being discussed and leave personal opinion out of the thread. Any further personal digs will result in infraction points being given and things cleaned up, meaning deleted posts.