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fogbonnet
Aug 14th 2008, 01:40 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.

Athanasius
Aug 14th 2008, 03:34 PM
I think we should start by defining the word 'sin'. But to give you the sparks note version of my answer: no.

VerticalReality
Aug 14th 2008, 03:59 PM
Being that God does not break the law . . . no, He did not create sin.

Sold Out
Aug 14th 2008, 04:15 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.

It's one of those concepts that we can't wrap our finite minds around....because God is all-knowing. Yes, He knew what would happen because He knows everything, but He did not make the choice for Adam & Eve - they ultimately made the choice to bring sin into the world.

Rullion Green
Aug 14th 2008, 04:19 PM
He created free creatures with the capability to sin and they exercised that freedom.

He could have not bothered to create anything as he doesn't need us or angels to be content. But thank Him he did :)

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 14th 2008, 07:32 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.


If you look deep within the word, you may notice that Adam was never given "freewill", for God did restrict Adam and Eve as to not touch a particular tree within the garden. If they had free will, it would connote that they knew right from wrong and were able to judge and do anything they pleased.

Another observation may be found that God required obedience, yet both Adam and Eve obeyed Sat3n instead of God... Could that be because they lacked discernment of good and evil? When sin entered the world and tainted everything because of man, man's eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked and the were what... ashamed...


So to the question, did God create sin? No. Did He plan for it to be? Yes. Is sin of God? A big NO here. Does God use sin for His glory. YES.

This subject is very deep and holds a lot of theology behind it and I think this thread at best will only scratch the surface to the depth and breath of God's will and plan for man.


For His glory...

manichunter
Aug 14th 2008, 07:42 PM
No.......... He did not create sin. Holy Holy Holy :pp What I intend to be when I get removed from the presence of sin. I figure, we should define sin first as any contrary to the will of God.

Diolectic
Aug 14th 2008, 08:06 PM
I figure, we should define sin first as any contrary to the will of God. Prov 21:4a haughty look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin:
Rom 14:23b whatever is not of faith is sin.(choosing or refusing to have faith, nut inability)
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
1John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:

Sin is fruit from giving in to ones effections, from that which one is rooted in.

1 Sin is a choice.
2 Sin is the fruit of a kind of chosen way of being.
3 Sin can not be inherited.(it is not a genetic trait or a substance to be carried in the blood)
4 No one can be guilty of another's sin.(The sin of another(Adam) can not corrupt anyone else but the one who sinned.)
5 Guilt is only charged at ones first accountable sin.
6 All mankind only dies spiritualy(severed relationship with God) for his first accountable sin.

Guilt of sin can not be & is not charged of an inability/incapability.

The sin which is talked about in Romans 7 is our own unlawful affections.

Rullion Green
Aug 14th 2008, 08:22 PM
[quote=Diolectic;1749463]

Prov 21:4a haughty look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

[quote]


thanks for taking the time to give scripture :)

I have heard this before in Sermons but just looking at proverbs 21:4 i noticed plowing

What is plowing of the wicked???.. Is it justifying them as that too is a sin or much stronger, it's an abomonation

Proverbs 17:5. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

never heard plowing before :confused

fogbonnet
Aug 15th 2008, 01:08 AM
It's one of those concepts that we can't wrap our finite minds around....because God is all-knowing. Yes, He knew what would happen because He knows everything, but He did not make the choice for Adam & Eve - they ultimately made the choice to bring sin into the world.

Yes, Adam and Eve made their own choice, although I would maintain that they were created by God with the potential to sin, or the "sin gene," if you will. With God's omniscience, isn't that the same thing as creating sin, especially since He knew that his creatures would be too weak to resist sin's entangling web?

Also, because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have no choice but to fall prey to sin -- we are imperfect, sin-flawed creatures -- and God knew we would be that way when He created us. How is that not the same thing as creating sin?
(http://godsizedquestions.blogspot.com/2008/06/did-god-create-sin.html)

Mograce2U
Aug 15th 2008, 02:01 AM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.There are several factors at work here. God created the world so that it could be inhabited by creatures He could have fellowship with. That birth process did not begin until after sin entered the world. This was to bring hope into a world in which sin and death would also be a factor - which is not a deterrent to what God can do, rather it brings opportunity for God to reveal Himself to us. The state of innonency that Adam was created in would have not have brought him into the caliber of the relationship God intended for him. Something about the will of man must be engaged for man to choose God and life. The struggle to live does this and the challenge life in this earth brings says as much about the character of God as is does about the character He is bulding in us. If God so fascinates us, think how fascinated He must be with us! Were we all merely obedient robots, I doubt the world would have lasted as long as it has...

I suppose the best example we have is how we delight in seeing our own children learn and develop. A babe in arms is a delight for awhile but not when he is 30 years old. God is bringing us up to a standard whereby we can truly relate to Him as He is. That is a fellowship worth whatever it takes.

Ron Brown
Aug 15th 2008, 02:23 AM
If you look deep within the word, you may notice that Adam was never given "freewill", for God did restrict Adam and Eve as to not touch a particular tree within the garden. If they had free will, it would connote that they knew right from wrong and were able to judge and do anything they pleased.

Another observation may be found that God required obedience, yet both Adam and Eve obeyed Sat3n instead of God... Could that be because they lacked discernment of good and evil? When sin entered the world and tainted everything because of man, man's eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked and the were what... ashamed...


So to the question, did God create sin? No. Did He plan for it to be? Yes. Is sin of God? A big NO here. Does God use sin for His glory. YES.

This subject is very deep and holds a lot of theology behind it and I think this thread at best will only scratch the surface to the depth and breath of God's will and plan for man.


For His glory...

Great answer.

Also, Christ was glorified because of man's sin.

fogbonnet
Aug 15th 2008, 10:54 AM
There are several factors at work here. God created the world so that it could be inhabited by creatures He could have fellowship with. That birth process did not begin until after sin entered the world. This was to bring hope into a world in which sin and death would also be a factor - which is not a deterrent to what God can do, rather it brings opportunity for God to reveal Himself to us. The state of innonency that Adam was created in would have not have brought him into the caliber of the relationship God intended for him. Something about the will of man must be engaged for man to choose God and life. The struggle to live does this and the challenge life in this earth brings says as much about the character of God as is does about the character He is bulding in us. If God so fascinates us, think how fascinated He must be with us! Were we all merely obedient robots, I doubt the world would have lasted as long as it has...

I suppose the best example we have is how we delight in seeing our own children learn and develop. A babe in arms is a delight for awhile but not when he is 30 years old. God is bringing us up to a standard whereby we can truly relate to Him as He is. That is a fellowship worth whatever it takes.

I completely agree with everything you just said. It was very well thought out and expressed. However, how about the question of who created sin?

Firefighter
Aug 15th 2008, 12:40 PM
Sin is defined as "missing the mark." What mark? God and His standard. Sin is choosing something other than God and His will. God could not have created sin because sin is anything BUT Him.

fogbonnet
Aug 15th 2008, 02:42 PM
Sin is defined as "missing the mark." What mark? God and His standard. Sin is choosing something other than God and His will. God could not have created sin because sin is anything BUT Him.

But what about:

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."?

Sold Out
Aug 15th 2008, 02:55 PM
Yes, Adam and Eve made their own choice, although I would maintain that they were created by God with the potential to sin, or the "sin gene," if you will. With God's omniscience, isn't that the same thing as creating sin, especially since He knew that his creatures would be too weak to resist sin's entangling web?

Also, because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have no choice but to fall prey to sin -- we are imperfect, sin-flawed creatures -- and God knew we would be that way when He created us. How is that not the same thing as creating sin?

I do not believe that God created sin because God is perfect and good, and to believe that God created sin would cast a shadow of doubt on God's goodness.

Not only that, sin did not begin with man, but with angels. Satan was the first to sin. Man was not created to sin. He was created a freewill creature that was given a choice. That is not the same as creating sin.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 03:22 PM
Sin is defined as "missing the mark." What mark? God and His standard. Sin is choosing something other than God and His will. God could not have created sin because sin is anything BUT Him.


Yes this is the definition of sin: missing the mark, not meeting God's standard.

This may be a controversial argument, please feel free to shoot holes in it :)

Did God create sin? YES. God created everything. God creates peace and evil (Isaiah 45:7). God does not sin himself. But he created it. Why? Because he created the one who caused the first sin.

Back in the beginning, who was there with Adam & Eve tempting them to eat from the tree of knowledge? Satan of course. Who created Satan? God did.

ďI have created the waster (destroyer) to destroy!Ē Isaiah 54:16

The waster is Satan. He is the adversary of God. Is he as powerful as God? Definitely not, because God created him. If God wanted to, he could wipe satan out in an instant. But he doesn't do that because he created satan for a very specific purpose. "I created the waster to destroy". Its all part of God's amazing divine plan.

So, yes, God did set us up to fail. God intended that we sin. Why?:

1. So we could know the difference between good and evil. God wants us to learn righteousness. And we will, one way or another.
2. So he could show his glory and ultimate mercy by saving us from our sins through the sacrifce of his son Jesus.

Mograce2U
Aug 15th 2008, 03:42 PM
I completely agree with everything you just said. It was very well thought out and expressed. However, how about the question of who created sin?It would seem the devil is the one who introduced sin into the Garden. After God had made all things in the earth good - including Adam, and was resting from His work of creation, the devil came in to corrupt it. The devil who also was created to be an anointed cherub but who his own pride corrupted:

(Ezek 28:12-15 KJV) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. {13} Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. {14} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. {15} Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(Job 41:34 KJV) He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

(1 John 3:8 KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(John 8:44 KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

(Mat 16:23 KJV) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

(Luke 10:18 KJV) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

(Rev 12:9 KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(1 John 2:16 KJV) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

(Gal 2:17 KJV) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

It seems to me if we are to blame anyone for sin coming into the good world that God created, it ought to be Satan.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 03:42 PM
If you look deep within the word, you may notice that Adam was never given "freewill", for God did restrict Adam and Eve as to not touch a particular tree within the garden. If they had free will, it would connote that they knew right from wrong and were able to judge and do anything they pleased.

Another observation may be found that God required obedience, yet both Adam and Eve obeyed Sat3n instead of God... Could that be because they lacked discernment of good and evil? When sin entered the world and tainted everything because of man, man's eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked and the were what... ashamed...


So to the question, did God create sin? No. Did He plan for it to be? Yes. Is sin of God? A big NO here. Does God use sin for His glory. YES.

This subject is very deep and holds a lot of theology behind it and I think this thread at best will only scratch the surface to the depth and breath of God's will and plan for man.


For His glory...


Yes this whole discussion takes a different turn depending on whether you believe we have free will or not. I used to believe we have free will, but recently I have almost turned 180 degrees on this point (its hard to let go of past traditions...)

Here is my simple argument that I posted over in the Predestination thread:

If God is all-knowing, can we make a decision that would surprise God? God knows all, the beginning and the end. If that is true, our path has already been laid out for us. We are just actors playing a part in the big script of life.

Back to Adam & Eve... did they have free-will? Did they ask to be created? Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge smack dab in the middle of the paradise where Adam & Eve were living?

It seems if God didn't want us to sin, why bother even creating the tree of knowledge. Just create paradise and let Adam & Eve run around enjoying life.

But God didn't do this. He had a bigger vision, a grand plan. And that plan involved putting the tree of knowledge right where Eve (& satan) couldn't miss it. Did Adam & Eve really have a choice? Could they have somehow declined satan's temptation, and then the whole human race would be sinless? NO WAY. Adam & Eve didn't even have a chance. It was all part of God's plan.

BrckBrln
Aug 15th 2008, 03:53 PM
Was sin even created? I mean, isn't sin the opposite of good? Good wasn't created, right, for it's part of God's eternal character? So anything that isn't good, or perfect obedience for Adam, would be sin, right? So couldn't it be said that sin/evil wasn't created, it was just never present, or manifested, until Satan or Adam? I don't really know.:dunno:

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 03:54 PM
Great answer.

Also, Christ was glorified because of man's sin.

now where in the bible can you prove that?

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 04:03 PM
Was sin even created? I mean, isn't sin the opposite of good? Good wasn't created, right, for it's part of God's eternal character? So anything that isn't good, or perfect obedience for Adam, would be sin, right? So couldn't it be said that sin/evil wasn't created, it was just never present, or manifested, until Satan or Adam? I don't really know.:dunno:

That's another way of looking at it. Sin/goodness are intrinsic to the moral universe. God is goodness and he wants us to learn what goodness is by contrasting it with sin.

So when we ask "did God create sin", do we mean did he create the "concept of sin" or the "ability to sin"? From man's perspective are they the same?

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 04:07 PM
God's glory cannot dwell in the presence of sin... if sin could glorify God it would be in heaven around his throne... the bible makes it clear that he refuses to even look upon sin... man is told time and time again to turn away from sin... God loves to have mercy because he is so glad to remove us from our sins.. how in the world does something that God hates supposed to be something that at the same time give him glory?.... that makes absolutely no sense

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 04:35 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

Adam was created without the ability to sinning. You should not say that in the Garden of Eden exist concupiscence meat, because the tendency to sin or concupiscence came as the consequences of disobedience.

Nor was it as some suggest, that God has allowed Satan to enter the garden of Eden, because Satan was in the Garden of Eden is still a covering cherub, as shown Ezekiel 28.

Therefore, it is too possible that the fall of Satan has been at the same time as the fall of man

Bless.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 04:41 PM
However you look at this, you can't say that God does not allow sin in this world, because quite obviously there is sin in the world. Now is there much difference between what God allows and what God causes?

Perhaps the real question is: Did God create the sin of this world? Two options:

1. No, God didn't create the sin of this world, he only allows it. That means he didn't plan for sin to happen - but luckily God is a real quick thinker and came up with a plan to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

OR

2. Yes, God did create the sin of the world. It was all part of his plan from the beginning to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

Which plan seems more cohesive and consistent, given an all-powerful and all-knowing God?

BrckBrln
Aug 15th 2008, 04:47 PM
However you look at this, you can't say that God does not allow sin in this world, because quite obviously there is sin in the world. Now is there much difference between what God allows and what God causes?

Perhaps the real question is: Did God create the sin of this world? Two options:

1. No, God didn't create the sin of this world, he only allows it. That means he didn't plan for sin to happen - but luckily God is a real quick thinker and came up with a plan to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

OR

2. Yes, God did create the sin of the world. It was all part of his plan from the beginning to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

Which plan seems more cohesive and consistent, given an all-powerful and all-knowing God?

I don't think either of those are correct. I think it's obvious that God did plan on having sin enter into the world but this doesn't mean He created the sin itself, just the man with the ability to sin.

A manís heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9

Adam planed his own way but the Lord directed his steps. That's how I see it anyway.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 04:59 PM
However you look at this, you can't say that God does not allow sin in this world, because quite obviously there is sin in the world. Now is there much difference between what God allows and what God causes?

Perhaps the real question is: Did God create the sin of this world? Two options:

1. No, God didn't create the sin of this world, he only allows it. That means he didn't plan for sin to happen - but luckily God is a real quick thinker and came up with a plan to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

OR

2. Yes, God did create the sin of the world. It was all part of his plan from the beginning to save us from that sin (through Jesus).

Which plan seems more cohesive and consistent, given an all-powerful and all-knowing God?

Well, it seems obvious that what is right and wrong is in the hands of God as Job said: "Jah gave and took."

However, the cause of the collapse did not come directly from God. It is clear that God allowed the fall but gave the solution in Gn 3: 15.

Bless.

markinro
Aug 15th 2008, 05:06 PM
Yes, Adam and Eve made their own choice, although I would maintain that they were created by God with the potential to sin, or the "sin gene," if you will. With God's omniscience, isn't that the same thing as creating sin, especially since He knew that his creatures would be too weak to resist sin's entangling web?

Also, because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have no choice but to fall prey to sin -- we are imperfect, sin-flawed creatures -- and God knew we would be that way when He created us. How is that not the same thing as creating sin?

Your conclusions are faulty and not supported by the scriptures.

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 05:25 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.
No. God did not create sin. As for God knowing everything, I do not agree with that, either. John in revelation saw the throne of God. That means He is in the creation. He is not sitting outside the universe and looking, simultaneously at all time and all space.

God made a system that the universe operates under and He lives in that same system. God knows everything and is very intelligent, making Him a great predictor of future events. Plus He does have a plan that He works on to make come about.

God wanted man to be as much like Him as possible so He created a world that operated in a semi-random way and with free will, in order for man to grow to a high potential. God could have and did predict that evil could enter creation because of the flexibility built into it.

Mograce2U
Aug 15th 2008, 05:26 PM
Well, it seems obvious that what is right and wrong is in the hands of God as Job said: "Jah gave and took."

However, the cause of the collapse did not come directly from God. It is clear that God allowed the fall but gave the solution in Gn 3: 15.

Bless.God created man as a sentient creature, able to experience the world in which he was placed. But like Satan who saw the glory of God and coveted it for himself, so did man covet what had been forbidden to him when he gazed upon it and saw it as "good". This covetousness is what came when pride was birthed as his awareness of his individuality apart from God was perceived by him. Satan as the covering cherub was the highest of the stars of God and perhaps the first one of the heavenly creation. When he saw his own glory and that there was only One higher than himself, the ambition to have the glory of God became his desire. It was this birth of covetousness because of his own pride in himself (which glory God had given him) that corrupted his own goodness. And in his now perverted condition he tried to take away the glory of God's new creation for himself because God delighted in man whom He had created.

Covetousness is not just mere greed, rather it seeks to destroy goodness when it sees it in others - it is the evil eye which gazes upon another's favored condition and wants to take it away. This is what Satan contaminated the garden with and seduced Adam and Eve to do as well.

BrckBrln
Aug 15th 2008, 05:31 PM
As for God knowing everything, I do not agree with that, either.


God knows everything

Am I reading this wrong, or did you just contradict yourself?

RabbiKnife
Aug 15th 2008, 05:50 PM
Sin is not a "something" that was created.
God is not a "something" that was created.

God has existed without beginning and without end.
God is sovereign and self-existent.
God has free will and makes choices.

When God chose to create other beings besides Himself, He chose to create them with the ability to choose to love and worship Him.

Some chose not to do so .

That was sin. Not a "creation" of God, but a natural outflow of the choices of His creation.

God chooses to interact with a portion of His creation within the time/space continuum that we know as "here" and "now" -- including time back to the beginning of creation. But God is not bound by those limitations, it's just the time/place He has chosen in which to interact with this part of his creation.

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 05:59 PM
Am I reading this wrong, or did you just contradict yourself?
OK, I should have read my post after I wrote it.
What I meant was that God knows everything happening. You can see this in the beasts with eyes and the work of God's messengers.

Jesus predicted Peter would disown him, but it is in the Gospel because it came true. If it did not, and Peter decided to affirm himself as a follower of Jesus, it would not have been recorded.

Why would God, or Jesus bother giving prophesy unless They hoped that people would listen and change course. Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed but they repented. Does that mean God was wrong? No, it means that the warning did some good.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 05:59 PM
God created man as a sentient creature, able to experience the world in which he was placed. But like Satan who saw the glory of God and coveted it for himself, so did man covet what had been forbidden to him when he gazed upon it and saw it as "good". This covetousness is what came when pride was birthed as his awareness of his individuality apart from God was perceived by him. Satan as the covering cherub was the highest of the stars of God and perhaps the first one of the heavenly creation. When he saw his own glory and that there was only One higher than himself, the ambition to have the glory of God became his desire. It was this birth of covetousness because of his own pride in himself (which glory God had given him) that corrupted his own goodness. And in his now perverted condition he tried to take away the glory of God's new creation for himself because God delighted in man whom He had created.

Covetousness is not just mere greed, rather it seeks to destroy goodness when it sees it in others - it is the evil eye which gazes upon another's favored condition and wants to take it away. This is what Satan contaminated the garden with and seduced Adam and Eve to do as well.

Yes there was a desire to want to be like God. However, we can not even talk about the concupiscence of the eyes, said as the first Charter of John.

Simply Adam and Eve were induced by the word of the snake which led to disbelief in God's Word.


Blessings.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 06:14 PM
Well, it seems obvious that what is right and wrong is in the hands of God as Job said: "Jah gave and took."

Effectively you are saying everything (the good and the bad) is in God's hands. I agree with this. There is a reason for everything that happens.



However, the cause of the collapse did not come directly from God. It is clear that God allowed the fall but gave the solution in Gn 3: 15.

Bless.

This is semantics - the cause of the collapse was Adam, or Eve, or Satan; God only allowed the collapse, but didn't cause it himself. But who created these beings? God. If God created everything, is he ultimately responsible for everything?

It bugs me when people use this expression that God "allows" things to happen. God "allowed" Satan to tempt Adam & Eve. God "allows" sin. God "allows" bad things to happen. It gives the impression that God is sitting back letting the world run itself willy nilly.

Perhaps God thinks "Oh those pesky humans are at it again. Sinning all over the place. Man, what was I thinking when I created them. Look at the mess they've done. What am I to do about it - guess I'll just allow it for now."

This seems silly to me. It implies there is something else (Satan, humans, the world, whatever) that has a will that is equal to God's. That is false. God's will is sovereign and supreme. God is in control of everything. God is the alpha and the omega (Rev 21:6, 22:13). Notice it doesn't say he knows the beginning and the end, but that he is the beginning and the end. This seems to indicate to me that he not only knows how everything will turn out, but he is actually causing everything to turn out according to his plan. And what a glorious plan it will be!

Most of the arguments here I think come down to whether or not you believe we really have free will, or if everything is predestined. Perhaps its time to seriously examine why we could or could not have free will.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 06:44 PM
legoman:

This is semantics - the cause of the collapse was Adam, or Eve, or Satan; God only allowed the collapse, but didn't cause it himself. But who created these beings? God. If God created everything, is he ultimately responsible for everything?

Ok, but God is not responsible for the decision of them because he created them perfect. God would be responsible if He had created the man imperfect.



It bugs me when people use this expression that God "allows" things to happen. God "allowed" Satan to tempt Adam & Eve. God "allows" sin. God "allows" bad things to happen. It gives the impression that God is sitting back letting the world run itself willy nilly.

Perhaps God thinks "Oh those pesky humans are at it again. Sinning all over the place. Man, what was I thinking when I created them. Look at the mess they've done. What am I to do about it - guess I'll just allow it for now."
Okay, God intervenes but not always. is not that God never intervene. If we believe that, we believe in deism.

In Eden, he wanted not to intervene. That's all.

This seems silly to me. It implies there is something else (Satan, humans, the world, whatever) that has a will that is equal to God's. That is false. God's will is sovereign and supreme. God is in control of everything. God is the alpha and the omega (Rev 21:6, 22:13). Notice it doesn't say he knows the beginning and the end, but that he is the beginning and the end. This seems to indicate to me that he not only knows how everything will turn out, but he is actually causing everything to turn out according to his plan. And what a glorious plan it will be! Do not you believe in God omniciencia?


Most of the arguments here I think come down to whether or not you believe we really have free will, or if everything is predestined. Perhaps its time to seriously examine why we could or could not have free will.I think that who has had free will was Adan and of course was Christ as well.

Bless.
Sorry my english.

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 06:54 PM
If you look deep within the word, you may notice that Adam was never given "freewill", for God did restrict Adam and Eve as to not touch a particular tree within the garden. If they had free will, it would connote that they knew right from wrong and were able to judge and do anything they pleased.

Another observation may be found that God required obedience, yet both Adam and Eve obeyed Sat3n instead of God... Could that be because they lacked discernment of good and evil? When sin entered the world and tainted everything because of man, man's eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked and the were what... ashamed...


So to the question, did God create sin? No. Did He plan for it to be? Yes. Is sin of God? A big NO here. Does God use sin for His glory. YES.

This subject is very deep and holds a lot of theology behind it and I think this thread at best will only scratch the surface to the depth and breath of God's will and plan for man.


For His glory...
This has to be about the most wrong post I have ever read. I normally post on predominantly atheist forums and have read a lot of people denouncing God, but this should win a prize. They would love a post like this.

I am new on this forum so I need to play nice, to not get kicked off. I have temporarily beat back the heathen so I figured I would check out how other Christians think. I am very surprised by some of what I see.

Free-will has nothing to do with being able to do whatever you want. Adam and Eve were able do do things because they lived in a sin-free environment. I am not even sure if not heading God's warning was what caused their fall into sin, as much as what they thought about what they learned after having obtained the knowledge of evil.

I believe that God could have seen the possibility of sin entering into His creation, and made provision on how to deal with it. Personally, I think that the tree of knowledge was part of that. Kind of like "In case of emergency, break glass". in case sin did enter, angels designated to deal with it had access to the knowledge necessary to deal with it. It was never made for the use of humans.

Whatever glory that God could ever gain from the fact of evil existing would have been done with a long time ago. God would have received a certain amount of vindication of good over evil with the resurrection of Jesus. Paul says that all of creation suffers because of sin.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
These are the sort of things brought up by atheists to prove there could be no God; if He would cause un-told suffering for His own enjoyment. I have to counter that by arguing that such a thing could not be true, that God would create a universe where people could not help but fall and then condemn them to even more torment by throwing them in Hell for eternity.

I have to say No and No and No!
We do not have a God like that!

RabbiKnife
Aug 15th 2008, 06:55 PM
If there is no such thing as free will, given to me by a loving and benevolent God, then I want nothing to do with Christianity.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 07:58 PM
If there is no such thing as free will, given to me by a loving and benevolent God, then I want nothing to do with Christianity.

Hello,

it is important to differentiate between "will" and "free will".

Sin has enslaved to humans by removing the "free will" but Christ came to restore freedom.

Christ said: know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

blessings.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 08:27 PM
Ok, but God is not responsible for the decision of them because he created them perfect. God would be responsible if He had created the man imperfect.
I don't believe Adam & Eve were perfect were they? Only one was created perfect & sinless - Jesus Christ.



Okay, God intervenes but not always. is not that God never intervene. If we believe that, we believe in deism.

In Eden, he wanted not to intervene. That's all.
Do not you believe in God omniciencia?
Not sure what you mean here. Do I believe God is omniscient? Yes - he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.



I think that who has had free will was Adan and of course was Christ as well.

Bless.
Sorry my english.
There are many verses that say God is in complete control and intervene's in his creation. How can there be free-will if everything is happening according to God's will?

Diolectic
Aug 15th 2008, 08:40 PM
Hello,

it is important to differentiate between "will" and "free will".

Sin has enslaved to humans by removing the "free will" but Christ came to restore freedom.

Christ said: know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

blessings.Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
This verse tells us that we still have a free will while being "enslaved", we are "enslaved" to whom ever we yaild ourselves to & we are to choose whom we yaild our selves to.

We have allways had a free will.

legoman
Aug 15th 2008, 09:14 PM
If there is no such thing as free will, given to me by a loving and benevolent God, then I want nothing to do with Christianity.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you do realize there are many verses in the bible that support predestination?:

Eclesiastes 3: There is an appointed time for everything, including when we are born and we die.

Psalm 139: God knows everything about us, including when we were born and die, what we will say before we say it, etc.

Ephesians 2:10: God prepared our works in advance.

Romans 9: God rose up pharoah and then hardened his heart (v17). God is the potter we are the clay - he forms some vessels to honor and others to dishonour (v21). Who are we to question God (v20). etc.

All of Job: God put Job threw many trials, directly intervening in his life.

Ephesians 1:11: God predestines us. God calls us to be with him, we don't choose him.

The lord's prayer (Matthew 6:10): ... Thy will be done...

There are many, many other scriptures that also point to God's will being supreme, and the fact we humans can't do anything except by God's will.

Look at it this way. if God knows:
- when we are born
- when we will die
- what we say before we say it
- what works we will do
- whether we will be called to him or not
- whether we will be formed for honor or dishonor

How can we say we have free-will? How can the above evidence be ignored? Believe me, I used to think we have free-will too, but when you actually read some of these scriptures, it doesn't sound like free-will to me.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 10:38 PM
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
This verse tells us that we still have a free will while being "enslaved", we are "enslaved" to whom ever we yaild ourselves to & we are to choose whom we yaild our selves to.

We have allways had a free will.


Yes we have free will in Christ.

But, who is a slave of sin, can not speak of "free will" because it is a servant of sin.

Blessings.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 10:54 PM
I don't believe Adam & Eve were perfect were they? Only one was created perfect & sinless - Jesus Christ.


Adam was created without sin. Christ is called in Scripture the Second Adam (1 Co 15: 45).

9Marksfan
Aug 15th 2008, 11:22 PM
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
These are the sort of things brought up by atheists to prove there could be no God; if He would cause un-told suffering for His own enjoyment. I have to counter that by arguing that such a thing could not be true, that God would create a universe where people could not help but fall and then condemn them to even more torment by throwing them in Hell for eternity.

I have to say No and No and No!
We do not have a God like that!

What do you make of the preceding verses then?

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom 8:20-21 NKJV

This clearly teaches us that God willed the Fall to take place in order that He could display His glory in the deliverance from corruption of the whole creation when the new heavens and earth are ushered in.

What kind of God do you have then? He doesn't seem to be the God of this passage....

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 01:28 AM
Yes we have free will in Christ.

But, who is a slave of sin, can not speak of "free will" because it is a servant of sin.

Blessings.What do you think the meaning of the verse is?
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This impleis ability to choose whom you yield yourself to serv.
If you willfully choose to serve sin, it is unto death.
If you willfully choose to serve obedience it is unto righteousness?

The will is not bound, imovable in serving sin.
Therefore we are able to speak of "free will"

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 01:37 AM
Look at it this way. if God knows:
- when we are born
- when we will die
- what we say before we say it
- what works we will do
- whether we will be called to him or not
- whether we will be formed for honor or dishonor

How can we say we have free-will? How can the above evidence be ignored? Believe me, I used to think we have free-will too, but when you actually read some of these scriptures, it doesn't sound like free-will to me.Are you figuring that, since our will is limited, that makes it unfree?

Say that your in a room with no doors.
Your free to move about anywhere you want inside that room.
However, you can not go outside.


- whether we will be formed for honor or dishonorI need to call you on this one.
No one is born/created as a vessle of wrath.

Jer 18:2-6 Arise, and go down to the potterís house, and there I will cause you to hear my words.
:3 Then I went down to the potterís house, and, behold, he worked a work on the wheels.
:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potterís hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter hand to reform the clay into a new vessel.

All mankind are born for honor, however,because of disobedience & rebelion, God reforms the vessle into one for dis-honor, out of judgment.

Therefore, All vessles of wrath are that way because they are being judged.

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 01:46 AM
Notice it doesn't say he knows the beginning and the end, but that he is the beginning and the end. This seems to indicate to me that he not only knows how everything will turn out, but he is actually causing everything to turn out according to his plan. And what a glorious plan it will be!

Most of the arguments here I think come down to whether or not you believe we really have free will, or if everything is predestined. Perhaps its time to seriously examine why we could or could not have free will.God is not playing a game of solitair by Himself with creation.
He 'control" everything.
Actually God has everything under control, see the difference?

Under Control is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can't leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.

As with a "controled fire". Firemen do not control every lick of flame, but the fire will not leave the bounds of which they set.

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 02:04 AM
Adam was created without sin. Christ is called in Scripture the Second Adam (1 Co 15: 45).

I think the verse you quoted is showing the exact opposite. Here are the relevant verses.

45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.


Christ is referred to as the second Adam because he was created, like Adam, directly from the hand of God. Perhaps that is not the best way to say it, but he was divinely conceived, as Adam was. You get what I mean I hope.

Anyway, looking at the other verses you can see how they are contrasted... The first man Adam, was natural (carnal), of the dust of the earth. Adam was like the rest of us, sinful from birth. The 2nd man Christ, was spiritual, from heaven - he was God's son.

That is our goal - to put away carnal things and to become spiritual.

So, I still don't see that Adam was created sinless.

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 02:08 AM
ďI have created the waster (destroyer) to destroy!Ē Isaiah 54:16

The waster is Satan. He is the adversary of God. Is he as powerful as God? Definitely not, because God created him. If God wanted to, he could wipe satan out in an instant. But he doesn't do that because he created satan for a very specific purpose. "I created the waster to destroy". Its all part of God's amazing divine plan.God created Lucifer. Sin was found in him. Lucifer created his own sin.
Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.


So, yes, God did set us up to fail. God intended that we sin. Why?:

1. So we could know the difference between good and evil. God wants us to learn righteousness. And we will, one way or another. God did not set us up to fail!!!

He did not want us to know good and evil
Gen 3:22 And God saith, "behold, the man was as one of Us, (he is) knowing of good and evil now."
For fear that he strech out his hand, and take of the tree of life, and to eat, and fore ever, :23 the lORD sent him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken.


2. So he could show his glory and ultimate mercy by saving us from our sins through the sacrifce of his son Jesus.
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness shows, proves, establishes, exhibits, demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous To take vengeance?

In other words, If we make God look greater in contrast to our unrighteousness, aren't we glorifying God by our unrighteousness?
If so, then isn't God being unrighteous by condemning our glorification of Him?

"I speak as a man". In other words, I'm giving an example as any of them might say.

We know the answer to this: GOD FORBID!!!

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 02:11 AM
Adam was created without sin. Christ is called in Scripture the Second Adam (1 Co 15: 45).

God did not make imperfect humans, He made them with free will to choose either way.
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh:
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world,
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was
1: good for food,
and that it was
2: pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam died spiritually when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus was tempted in all these areas.
the lust of the flesh Mat 4:3
the lust of the eyes Mat 4:8-9
the pride of life Mat 4:6

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 16th 2008, 02:55 AM
It's not good exegesis to define OT scriptures with NT scriptures... It be like defining Windows 3.1 with the Window XP manual... [To continue the example Windows 3.1 predates XP by many years and thus translating forward is a better fit than translating backwards... for who still remembers the C Prompt commands? {I can hear it know, some of the youngins say, what is 3.1? What is C Prompt? What is DOS Commands? LOL}]

But setting that aside... what caused Adam and Eve to sin if their will was free and perfect in every way?


And did they have lust and pride before they fell or did this happen after?

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 03:20 AM
God created Lucifer. Sin was found in him. Lucifer created his own sin.[/font]
Eze 28:15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.


There are some translational problems with this verse and the preceeding verses. I am aware that many people contend this verse is talking about satan, but I don't believe that to be the case. This verse is talking about King Tyre, just as the rest of this chapter of Ezekiel is. Here is an interesting translation from biblegateway (new century - not sure how much it is used):

Ezekiel 28:12-15 (New Century Version)

12 "Human, sing a funeral song for the king of Tyre. Say to him: 'This is what the Lord God says:
You were an example of what was perfect,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You had a wonderful life,
as if you were in Eden, the garden of God.
Every valuable gem was on you:
ruby, topaz, and emerald,
yellow quartz, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise, and chrysolite.
Your jewelry was made of gold.
It was prepared on the day you were created.
14 I appointed a living creature to guard you.
I put you on the holy mountain of God.
You walked among the gems that shined like fire.
15 Your life was right and good
from the day you were created,
until evil was found in you.


Here it should be plain to see that the person being addressed in verse 15 is the same person - the King of Tyre - being addressed in verse 12. If we carry on with the other verses 16-19, you see that it is still the King of Tyre addressed all the way through. The King of Tyre became proud, and was eventually destroyed (verse 19). Satan has not been destroyed yet so this is definitely not talking about Lucifer.

But what about the verse I quoted?:
"I have created the waster (destroyer) to destroy!Ē Isaiah 54:16

Here's a couple more to ponder:
"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginningÖ"(I John 3:8).
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginningÖ"(John 8:44)

These verses seem pretty clear to me: satan was created to sin and he did sin from the beginning.



God did not set us up to fail!!!

He did not want us to know good and evil
Gen 3:22 And God saith, "behold, the man was as one of Us, (he is) knowing of good and evil now."
For fear that he strech out his hand, and take of the tree of life, and to eat, and fore ever, :23 the lORD sent him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken.
I think this is just God saying that Adam now knows good and evil, so he kicks him out of the garden. Who was God talking to here? Probably the angels I would guess. Does this refute that Adam had the sinful nature before he ate from the tree of life?



Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness shows, proves, establishes, exhibits, demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous To take vengeance?

In other words, If we make God look greater in contrast to our unrighteousness, aren't we glorifying God by our unrighteousness?
If so, then isn't God being unrighteous by condemning our glorification of Him?

"I speak as a man". In other words, I'm giving an example as any of them might say.

We know the answer to this: GOD FORBID!!!Not sure what you are trying to say here?

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 03:27 AM
It's not good exegesis to define OT scriptures with NT scriptures... It be like defining Windows 3.1 with the Window XP manual... [To continue the example Windows 3.1 predates XP by many years and thus translating forward is a better fit than translating backwards... for who still remembers the C Prompt commands? {I can hear it know, some of the youngins say, what is 3.1? What is C Prompt? What is DOS Commands? LOL}]


LOL interesting analogy... although I'm not sure it quite fits exactly :)



But setting that aside... what caused Adam and Eve to sin if their will was free and perfect in every way?
Exactly. If they were free and perfect, they were incorruptible already. How is it Satan managed to corrupt them then.



And did they have lust and pride before they fell or did this happen after?Ah yes good question. Was Adam & Eve's first sin the act of eating the fruit, or was it the lust of the fruit which came first? I think Diolectic actually covered that nicely:
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,

I would say Eve committed all 3 of these sins before she actually bit into the apple (was it actually an apple?).

Therefore, did Eve become aware of good and evil because she ate the fruit, or because she sinned?

Instrument
Aug 16th 2008, 03:36 AM
What do you think the meaning of the verse is?
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This impleis ability to choose whom you yield yourself to serv.
If you willfully choose to serve sin, it is unto death.
If you willfully choose to serve obedience it is unto righteousness?

The will is not bound, imovable in serving sin.
Therefore we are able to speak of "free will"


Yes but this verse is addressed to Christians; that is, people who have been freed by the grace of Christ.

The context inmendiato shows what is the situation of someone who still does not know Christ. Observe the VR 17:

"But thank God, that although were slaves of sin ..."

Blessings.

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 03:45 AM
God is not playing a game of solitair by Himself with creation.


That is an interesting way of putting it. But it is not quite that simple. God is not playing solitaire because there are other beings involved. Even if we don't have free-will, we are still sentient beings with the capability to think, learn, and love.

When you talk about free-will or lack thereof, someone usually brings up the old "I am not a robot" argument. Or in your case "I am not a game of solitaire" ;)

There are two ways to look at this:
1. "I am not a robot". True! We are much more complicated than robots. We have emotions, we can make rational and irrational decisions, we have a will (not necessarily a free will), etc. We are far superior to a robot. Robots tend to get stuck in a loop or in a corner at the slightest foul up.

OR

2. "I am not a robot". True! Robots move around and amaze their creators and have fancy blinking lights that look neat. However God says we are the clay and he is the potter. Robots can at least do something by moving around themselves, even if they do get stuck in a corner once in a while. The clay can do NOTHING by itself.

Only when we realize that we are a lump of clay will we know true humility. We can do nothing without God.



He 'control" everything.
Actually God has everything under control, see the difference?

Under Control is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can't leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.

As with a "controled fire". Firemen do not control every lick of flame, but the fire will not leave the bounds of which they set.What you are suggesting is God is always operating in "Plan B" mode. Is God really constantly changing his plan A due to the pesky humans thwarting it? This implies that man's will is equal in power to God's will, and puts a serious dent in God's omniscience and foreknowledge.

I prefer to think God is powerful enough to follow Plan A through to the end.

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 04:02 AM
Are you figuring that, since our will is limited, that makes it unfree?

Say that your in a room with no doors.
Your free to move about anywhere you want inside that room.
However, you can not go outside.


That's an interesting point. I view it like this:

We are still living this life. We still have a will. We still make the decisions. But there is something out of our control (circumstances) that causes us to make the decisions we do. Who sets up the circumstances? God.

I only recently become open to the idea that we possibly don't have free will. Has it changed how I live my life? Not much (possibly I've started posting more on Christian forums ;)). I still go about my daily business like I'm in charge. But every once in a while I stop and think, now why did that happen. Why did God put me in a certain situation. What does he want me to learn? And eventually I'll learn it, cause I don't have a choice :) To summarize: live life like you are in charge, but pray like God is in charge.



I need to call you on this one.
No one is born/created as a vessle of wrath.

Jer 18:2-6Arise, and go down to the potterís house, and there I will cause you to hear my words.
:3 Then I went down to the potterís house, and, behold, he worked a work on the wheels.
:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potterís hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter hand to reform the clay into a new vessel.


I hadn't studied that verse before, but your analysis seems correct. But you could argue the potter marred the clay, and then he reformed the clay - mirroring our coming to christ. We were marred but are now reformed.

Anyway back to the verse I referred to:
"hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?" Romans 9:21

That seems pretty clear to me. Does God not have the authority to make one person for honour and another for dishonour?



All mankind are born for honor, however,because of disobedience & rebelion, God reforms the vessle into one for dis-honor, out of judgment.

Therefore, All vessles of wrath are that way because they are being judged.Doesn't fit with Romans 9:21. All mankind are not born for honor. Some are made for dishonor.

Instrument
Aug 16th 2008, 04:08 AM
I think the verse you quoted is showing the exact opposite. Here are the relevant verses.

45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.


Christ is referred to as the second Adam because he was created, like Adam, directly from the hand of God. Perhaps that is not the best way to say it, but he was divinely conceived, as Adam was. You get what I mean I hope.

Anyway, looking at the other verses you can see how they are contrasted... The first man Adam, was natural (carnal), of the dust of the earth. Adam was like the rest of us, sinful from birth. The 2nd man Christ, was spiritual, from heaven - he was God's son.

That is our goal - to put away carnal things and to become spiritual.

So, I still don't see that Adam was created sinless.
Christ also took human nature. He also had similar flesh sin (sinless) Rom 8: 3.

The postrer Adan was not different in nature to the first Adam.

You can see in Scripture that sin entered the world by one man, so that before the fall there was no sin in the world. Simply sinless God made everything, including man.

Blessings.

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 04:15 AM
Christ also take human nature. He also had similar meat sin (sinless) Rom 8: 3.

The postrer Adan was not different in nature to the first Adam.

You can see in Scripture that sin entered the world by one man, so that before the fall there was no sin in the world. Simply sinless God made everything, including man.

Blessings.

Yes Christ took human form, but he did not sin (of course you know that). Anyway I will have to search more on the sinless Adam possibility, but as of right now I'm not convinced :) Interesting discussion though - and that is ultimately the aim, to try to understand the truth of the bible.

Question: was "postrer Adan" a typo? I noticed you mention Adan in your previous post as well - I'm not familiar with the terminology of "postrer Adan". Please explain.

Instrument
Aug 16th 2008, 04:26 AM
Yes Christ took human form, but he did not sin (of course you know that). Anyway I will have to search more on the sinless Adam possibility, but as of right now I'm not convinced :) Interesting discussion though - and that is ultimately the aim, to try to understand the truth of the bible.

Question: was "postrer Adan" a typo? I noticed you mention Adan in your previous post as well - I'm not familiar with the terminology of "postrer Adan". Please explain.

The latter Adam is one that would correct the flaw of the first Adam. I think that the King James says: "the last Adam." Anyway in the Bible in Spanish used the phrase: "Second or postrero Adam." But it's the same thing.

In Rom 5: 12 says that sin entered the world by one man. This means that the world was done without sin.

Blessings.

legoman
Aug 16th 2008, 04:36 AM
The latter Adam is one that would correct the flaw of the first Adam. I think that the King James says: "the last Adam." Anyway in the Bible in Spanish used the phrase: "Second or postrero Adam." But it's the same thing.

In Rom 5: 12 says that sin entered the world by one man. This means that the world was done without sin.

Blessings.

Ah ok I know what you mean. The "postrero Adam" is the last/second Adam, also know as Jesus Christ. The spanish was throwing me :) Thanks for the clarification.

Diolectic
Aug 16th 2008, 06:08 PM
That seems pretty clear to me. Does God not have the authority to make one person for honour and another for dishonour?Yes, but why woulod He make something for the sole purpose of disguarding?
Like making a poop pie(thing of dishonore) and being angry that it tasts like poop.
Like making a poop pie and just to see your time and effort to be flushed down the tiolet.




All mankind are born for honor, however,because of disobedience & rebelion, God reforms the vessle into one for dis-honor, out of judgment.Therefore, All vessles of wrath are that way because they are being judged. Doesn't fit with Romans 9:21. All mankind are not born for honor. Some are made for dishonor.If you say God created Pharaoh as a vessel of wrath, being born a vessel of wrath.

If that is true, pharaoh was doing God's will all his life by doing things worthy of wrath.
God's will for pharaoh is to disobey the verbal commands of God.
God's will for pharaoh is to have a hard heart.
Pharaoh was doing God's will all his life.
This is the purpose in which God created Pharaoh.
This would make pharaoh's life worthy to be honored, because Pharaoh did the will of God and did not rebel by doing anything worthy of honor.
Pharaoh did not disobey his purpose in life.
Furthermore, you have Pharaoh being condemned for doing God's will.

This makes no sence at all.

On the Otherhand, however, Since all mankind was created/born to worship God as vessles of honor.
As the vessle mars its self, God judges it and reforms it, giving it to it's own lust as we see HIM doing in Romans 1:24,26,28


What you are suggesting is God is always operating in "Plan B" mode. Is God really constantly changing his plan A due to the pesky humans thwarting it? This implies that man's will is equal in power to God's will, and puts a serious dent in God's omniscience and foreknowledge.

I prefer to think God is powerful enough to follow Plan A through to the end.No plan B
God has our disobediance & rebelion in His plan A.
He has made ammends for us.
God works around our disobediance & rebelion, knowing them in advance.

Mograce2U
Aug 16th 2008, 06:27 PM
Diolectic,
Just thought I would put these together for your post:

(Rom 9:21 KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(1 Th 4:4 KJV) That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

(2 Tim 2:20-21 KJV) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

legoman
Aug 17th 2008, 12:39 AM
Yes, but why woulod He make something for the sole purpose of disguarding?
Like making a poop pie(thing of dishonore) and being angry that it tasts like poop.
Like making a poop pie and just to see your time and effort to be flushed down the tiolet.


You may want to check a couple verses before (Romans 9:19 specifically).

The verse in question (Romans 9:21) does not say anything about discarding. The verse says "hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?". This is what the verse says Diolectic, you can't deny that.

Like I said, seems pretty clear, God can make things for honour or dishonour as he choses. He would use the dishonorable things in his plan. God uses evil for good.



If you say God created Pharaoh as a vessel of wrath, being born a vessel of wrath.

If that is true, pharaoh was doing God's will all his life by doing things worthy of wrath.
God's will for pharaoh is to disobey the verbal commands of God.
God's will for pharaoh is to have a hard heart.
Pharaoh was doing God's will all his life.
This is the purpose in which God created Pharaoh.
This would make pharaoh's life worthy to be honored, because Pharaoh did the will of God and did not rebel by doing anything worthy of honor.
Pharaoh did not disobey his purpose in life.
Furthermore, you have Pharaoh being condemned for doing God's will.

This makes no sence at all.
Sounds like you are asking the same thing stated in Romans 9:19.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

If Pharoah could not resist God's will and has his heart hardened then why should he be "condemned"? Paul answers it in verse 20: WHO ARE WE TO TALK BACK TO GOD! We are the clay, God is the potter!

Who are we to ask what "makes sense" when it comes to God's plan! We must trust in God - he is good, he is wise, he is just, he is love.



On the Otherhand, however, Since all mankind was created/born to worship God as vessles of honor.
As the vessle mars its self, God judges it and reforms it, giving it to it's own lust as we see HIM doing in Romans 1:24,26,28
The verses you quote seem to be just another example of God controlling everything. He "gave them over" to their lusts. God was in control here, yet again, as always. Doesn't sound like there was any free-will involved here for humanity.



No plan B
God has our disobediance & rebelion in His plan A.
He has made ammends for us.
God works around our disobediance & rebelion, knowing them in advance.Almost sounds like you are stating a case for predestination there Diolectic ;)

But I would say God doesn't need to "work around" our disobedience & rebellion, because he planned it from the start. (see Romans 9:21 again).

Why did he plan for rebellion? Who are we to ask. But we can theorize - God uses evil so he can shows the good.

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 04:53 PM
What do you make of the preceding verses then?

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Rom 8:20-21 NKJV

This clearly teaches us that God willed the Fall to take place in order that He could display His glory in the deliverance from corruption of the whole creation when the new heavens and earth are ushered in.

What kind of God do you have then? He doesn't seem to be the God of this passage....
The sentence structure is a little difficult.
Read it as: For the creation was subjected to futility. Not by their natural inclination, but by the work of the Holy Spirit, did they come under God's desire that they would have hope...

9Marksfan
Aug 17th 2008, 05:12 PM
The sentence structure is a little difficult.
Read it as: For the creation was subjected to futility. Not by their natural inclination, but by the work of the Holy Spirit, did they come under God's desire that they would have hope...

That's a pretty tortured translation - here's Young's Literal Translation:-

For to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:20-21 YLT

It's pretty clear that it was GOD who subjected the creation in hope.

BroRog
Aug 17th 2008, 05:45 PM
It's not good exegesis to define OT scriptures with NT scriptures... It be like defining Windows 3.1 with the Window XP manual... [To continue the example Windows 3.1 predates XP by many years and thus translating forward is a better fit than translating backwards... for who still remembers the C Prompt commands? {I can hear it know, some of the youngins say, what is 3.1? What is C Prompt? What is DOS Commands? LOL}]

But setting that aside... what caused Adam and Eve to sin if their will was free and perfect in every way?


And did they have lust and pride before they fell or did this happen after?

Why do you think it's called the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?" What did Adam and Eve learn by eating the fruit?

Remember Peter? Remember what he said to Jesus? "I'll fight for you to the bitter end Jesus", he said. Jesus said, "On the contrary, you're gonna deny me three times before the rooster crows."

Peter is an illustration of the difference between our self-image, and the reality of who we are. Peter imagined himself to be the heroic type. He turned out to be fearful.

God put one simple restriction on Adam. And had Adam never eaten of the tree, he would have known himself to be a righteous individual. But since he ate of the tree, he knows himself to be otherwise.

The tree itself didn't give Adam knowledge. It wasn't like that. The tree was simply Adam's opportunity to discover something about himself. Sin was already in him. He just didn't know it until God put a restriction on him.

We all do that. I say to myself, "Oh, If I were in that situation I never would have eaten from the tree." Yeah? You know yourself that well?

BroRog
Aug 17th 2008, 05:59 PM
Yes, but why woulod He make something for the sole purpose of disguarding?

It was explained to me this way.

The comparison is between two vessels: one for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. The phrase "dishonorable use" is an euphemism for "toilet". Mankind hasn't always had sewers and plumbing. In some cultures a person would first urinate into a pot, then take the pot outside to remove it's contents.

Some pots were used as decoration, adorned with artistic illustrations. These are the pots made for honorable use.

A man engaged in the occupation of potter is going to make all kinds of pots. Some of the pots are going be used for toilets. And other pots are going to be used for flowers. In any case, the type of pot he makes is the choice of the potter. The purpose of the pot is literally in the hands of the potter.

legoman
Aug 18th 2008, 03:33 PM
It was explained to me this way.

The comparison is between two vessels: one for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. The phrase "dishonorable use" is an euphemism for "toilet". Mankind hasn't always had sewers and plumbing. In some cultures a person would first urinate into a pot, then take the pot outside to remove it's contents.

Some pots were used as decoration, adorned with artistic illustrations. These are the pots made for honorable use.

A man engaged in the occupation of potter is going to make all kinds of pots. Some of the pots are going be used for toilets. And other pots are going to be used for flowers. In any case, the type of pot he makes is the choice of the potter. The purpose of the pot is literally in the hands of the potter.

I take it you don't believe in free will then, BroRog?

Diolectic
Aug 18th 2008, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Diolectic
Yes, but why woulod He make something for the sole purpose of disguarding?

Like making a poop pie(thing of dishonore) and being angry that it tasts like poop.

Like making a poop pie and just to see your time and effort to be flushed down the tiolet.You may want to check a couple verses before (Romans 9:19 specifically).
The verse in question (Romans 9:21) does not say anything about discarding. The verse says "hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?". This is what the verse says Diolectic, you can't deny that.
Like I said, seems pretty clear, God can make things for honour or dishonour
as he choses. He would use the dishonorable things in his plan. God uses evil for good.Would you concider hell as a place of disgarding?



If you say God created Pharaoh as a vessel of wrath, being born a vessel of wrath.
If that is true, pharaoh was doing God's will all his life by doing things worthy of wrath.

God's will for pharaoh is to disobey the verbal commands of God.

God's will for pharaoh is to have a hard heart.

Pharaoh was doing God's will all his life.

This is the purpose in which God created Pharaoh.

This would make pharaoh's life worthy to be honored, because Pharaoh did the will of God and did not rebel by doing anything worthy of honor.

Pharaoh did not disobey his purpose in life.
Furthermore, you have Pharaoh being condemned for doing God's will.This makes no sence at all.
Sounds like you are asking the same thing stated in Romans 9:19.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

If Pharoah could not resist God's will and has his heart hardened then why should he be "condemned"? Paul answers it in verse 20: WHO ARE WE TO TALK BACK TO GOD! We are the clay, God is the potter!
The way to explain Romand 9:19-20:
19: After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
20: Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways.

Who are we to ask what "makes sense" when it comes to God's plan! We must trust in God - he is good, he is wise, he is just, he is love.God will & must make sense! HE is not nonsensical, HE dwells in reality.
However, if & when God does something which does not make sense, it is when HE deals with someone personaly, & then He will give that one a sense of knowledge to trust, and it will make perfect sense in the end.
Furthemore, as He deals with the world as the world may view Him, He would never cause them to stumble as to make them think that He never makes sence, or to make the world to see Him as a tyrant.


On the Otherhand, however, Since all mankind was created/born to worship God as vessles of honor.


As the vessle mars its self, God judges it and reforms it, giving it to it's own lust as we see HIM doing in Romans 1:24,26,28The verses you quote seem to be just another example of God controlling everything. He "gave them over" to their lusts. God was in control here, yet again, as always. Doesn't sound like there was any free-will involved here for humanity.It ain't as there is no escape from sin after He gives them over to it. It would be rediculous for God to make it impossible to do that which HE commands. He commands the to repent, tnen to make it impossible would be tyrnnical.
Pharaoh could still obey God after he was given over to his sin.(Romans 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
If one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?
As Pharaoh had a hard heart, he too, could also repent as Paul knows they could.)
That kind of judgment is to bring the sinner to his end so that he would see where he has briught himself.
Why would you give an impression of Hod being a tyrant?

God has our disobediance & rebelion in His plan A.

He has made ammends for us.

God works around our disobediance & rebelion, knowing them in advance.
Almost sounds like you are stating a case for predestination there Diolectic.

But I would say God doesn't need to "work around" our disobedience & rebellion, because he planned it from the start. (see Romans 9:21 again).

Why did he plan for rebellion? Who are we to ask. But we can theorize - God uses evil so he can shows the good.
Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?
This is demented.

We are sentient beings in the likeness and image of God, that is who we are to ask.

Diolectic
Aug 18th 2008, 04:21 PM
It was explained to me this way.

The comparison is between two vessels: one for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. The phrase "dishonorable use" is an euphemism for "toilet". Mankind hasn't always had sewers and plumbing. In some cultures a person would first urinate into a pot, then take the pot outside to remove it's contents.

Some pots were used as decoration, adorned with artistic illustrations. These are the pots made for honorable use.

A man engaged in the occupation of potter is going to make all kinds of pots. Some of the pots are going be used for toilets. And other pots are going to be used for flowers. In any case, the type of pot he makes is the choice of the potter. The purpose of the pot is literally in the hands of the potter.Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?
This is demented.
We are sentient beings in the likeness and image of God, that is who we are to ask.

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 12:21 AM
I take it you don't believe in free will then, BroRog? Your question should be, has Brorog understood what Paul was saying?

Paul seems to be saying God is like a potter who makes people however he wants for his own purposes. Just as a potter makes a toilet from the same clay he makes a vase, God makes some people for judgment and others for mercy.

If that is what Paul is saying, I believe it. If that is not what Paul is saying, I have no right to believe it.

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 12:31 AM
Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?
This is demented.
We are sentient beings in the likeness and image of God, that is who we are to ask.

Paul says that God created men and women to judge in order to demonstrate his wrath. And he says the ultimate destiny of these folks is destruction.

Is that not what he said?

I believe Paul's point is to say that it is not unjust for God to purposely assign certain people to destruction and others to salvation because God, as creator, has the right to do whatever he wants with his creation.

If a toilet could talk, Paul says, It wouldn't ask "why did you make me a toilet?" Obviously, the answer would be, "I needed a toilet."

If this offends you, welcome to the club. :)

Many people have this reaction the first time they come to terms with this truth.

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 12:58 AM
Would you concider hell as a place of disgarding?


Sure.



The way to explain Romand 9:19-20:
19: After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
20: Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God was the cause. There is no doubt about it. Just do a search for "Pharaoh heart" on biblegateway. Here are some of the verses.

Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27, etc. - these all say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pretty self explanatory.

Then we have verses like Exodus 8:32 "But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go."

Does 8:32 contradict the other multiple verses that say GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart? NO. There is no contradiction - God's word does not contradict. The answer is God made Pharaoh harden his own heart! God didn't let Pharaoh harden his own heart. God made Pharaoh harden his own heart. God is the cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened as demonstrated by Exodus 7:3, 9:12, 10:1, etc.

Pharaoh had NO free will. How could he resist God's will? He couldn't.



God will & must make sense! HE is not nonsensical, HE dwells in reality.


Yes of course God will & must make sense. You missed my point - if some scripture doesn't make sense to us, perhaps we're not seeing the big picture. In my opinion, the scriptures say CLEARLY that we don't have free will. Now if this doesn't fit with other preconceived ideas, then what is more likely - the scriptures are wrong or our idea of what makes sense (our idea that we have free will) is wrong?



However, if & when God does something which does not make sense, it is when HE deals with someone personaly, & then He will give that one a sense of knowledge to trust, and it will make perfect sense in the end.
Furthemore, as He deals with the world as the world may view Him, He would never cause them to stumble as to make them think that He never makes sence, or to make the world to see Him as a tyrant.

It ain't as there is no escape from sin after He gives them over to it. It would be rediculous for God to make it impossible to do that which HE commands. He commands the to repent, tnen to make it impossible would be tyrnnical.

Pharaoh could still obey God after he was given over to his sin.(Romans 2:5But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


It was God's will that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. There was no other option. Do you think God would let Pharaoh's will get in the way of God's plan?


If one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?
As Pharaoh had a hard heart, he too, could also repent as Paul knows they could.)
That kind of judgment is to bring the sinner to his end so that he would see where he has briught himself.
Why would you give an impression of Hod being a tyrant?


Someone with a hard heart could repent if God willed it. Paul himself is the prime example.

I am NOT giving an impression of God being a tyrant. I am explaining that God is all-powerful and all-knowing with complete foreknowledge.

Here is an amazing verse:

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all"

Yet again, doesn't look like free will to me. God binds us into disobedience. Kind of like making a pot for dishonor. But the 2nd part is beautiful - he does this so he may have mercy on us! Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me (praise God!).


Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?
This is demented.


This argument doesn't help your cause. You could say the above statement regardless of whether free will is true or not.

Either:

1. free will is true - why does God make some people who he knows will end up in judgement?

OR

2. free will is not true - why does God make some people who he predestines for judgement?

Notice the above 2 questions, the only difference is whether God "knows" or God "predestines". This is the crux of the No-free-will argument. God knowing how it turns all out is the same thing as God causing it to turn out that way.

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 01:06 AM
Your question should be, has Brorog understood what Paul was saying?


LOL yes quite right Brorog. Are we understanding the plain meaning of these verses?



Paul seems to be saying God is like a potter who makes people however he wants for his own purposes. Just as a potter makes a toilet from the same clay he makes a vase, God makes some people for judgment and others for mercy.
Again, I believe this is what he is saying. Although toilet could be anything for dishonor. ie. Using Pharaoh for God's plan.



If that is what Paul is saying, I believe it. If that is not what Paul is saying, I have no right to believe it.I think its fairly obvious that is what Paul is saying. The next part is how does that affect our preconceived ideas of our existince - ie. do we have free will or not.

If someone can show that is NOT what Paul is saying - please do so.

Anyway, you raise a good point Brorog. We must always study and follow the Word of God, not the doctrines of man.

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 01:17 AM
Paul says that God created men and women to judge in order to demonstrate his wrath. And he says the ultimate destiny of these folks is destruction.

Is that not what he said?

I believe Paul's point is to say that it is not unjust for God to purposely assign certain people to destruction and others to salvation because God, as creator, has the right to do whatever he wants with his creation.

If a toilet could talk, Paul says, It wouldn't ask "why did you make me a toilet?" Obviously, the answer would be, "I needed a toilet."

If this offends you, welcome to the club. :)

Many people have this reaction the first time they come to terms with this truth.

Yes it can be humbling if you realize the full extent of this.

With regards to your statements above what do you make of this verse Brorog?

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

9Marksfan
Aug 19th 2008, 08:14 AM
BrorRog and legoman - while I'm broadly in agreement with what you're posting, what do you make of the verses that predecede and follow 2 Tim 2:20?

Nevertheless the solid foundation of Gosd stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Tim 2:19 NKJV

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honour. 2 Tim 2:21 NKJV

Surely these verses makes clear the vital element of human responsibility - and indeed ACTIVITY (departing and cleansing oneself are of course actions) - albeit enabled by God, of course.

We need to keep divine sovereignty and human responsibility in tension and not overemphasise one and effectively deny the other - Scripture teaches both.

Sam07
Aug 19th 2008, 01:05 PM
Hi everyone,

It is interesting that at face value it may appear that this is a straight forward case of step by step facts and plain old simple logic, however not so for us mere mortals.

Wisdom is always justified of its self.

You have mentioned some very interesting points; so here is some food for thought.

Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure?

It has never been Gods intention for man to suffer or to be separated from him; unfortunately it was the cunning strategy plan of satan to use Eve to deceive Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge that caused him to transgress the commandment and consequence that God had explained to him.
(I will clarify this part later)

He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift?

I believe freewill gives us the ability to make right and wrong decisions only, but to imply that God gave Adam & Eve permission to sin with there freewill or that the ability he provides us with was or is to sin is incorrect, it is the demonstration of our own freewill that reveals our thoughts words and deeds, sin is a result or an outcome which comes after what we think say or do and not before it, this is what judges us and holds us accountable before our Father.

He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children?

I donít believe God allowed satan into the garden to tempt his children, but rather our Father created earth and then planted a garden which translated is hedge eastward of Eden, where he placed man where he made to grow every tree pleasant to the sight including the tree of life as well as the tree of knowledge. Genesis 2: 8-9

Then commanded he God to the man saying tho mayest eat freely of every tree, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou mayest not eat for in that day you will surely DIE. Genesis 2: 16-7

I donít think God said this to test Adam or to place conditions on him but to warn him in advance that he was welcome to eat from any tree in the garden/hedge of Eden, but he had to identify the tree of knowledge incase Adam accidentally ate from it and he spiritually and immortally KILLED himself.

I believe Adam was grateful and pleased that God had shared this truth with him and this saved Adam from making an unintentional mistake. It appears Adam agreed and understood this quite well for eternity because nothing else happed after that.

It wasnít until the devil came up with a plan to deceive Adam & Eve because he had come to the conclusion that they werenít going to eat from a tree of knowledge, how he deceived them was quite ingenious, he spoke to Eve and asked Eve what God had said, Eve repeated to the serpent what God had said, and the serpent assured Eve that she wouldnít die but her eyes would be OPENED and shall be as gods knowing good and evil.

Eves discernment and understanding was of no comparison the devils and when she looked upon the tree she saw it was good for food and pleasant to the eyes and could make one wise, her imagination convinced her to taste the fruit and she ate thereof, however nothing changed and nothing happened to Eve and this was the ingenious part of the plan that satan had devised to entice Adam.

Adam would have been watching all this and when nothing happened to Eve, Adam would have been curious and studied and observed Eve, the bible says then when Eve gave to Adam and Adam did eat thereof BOTH there eyes were opened.

The reason why this happened was because Eve was given to Adam as a helper and mate so Adam was responsible for Eve so thatís why nothing happened to Eve when she ate from the tree of knowledge, so satan used Eves position and status to trick Adam because Adam wasnít expecting anything to happen.

It was after eating from the tree of knowledge that there eyes and understanding were opened, there spiritual status was severed, dominion of the earth was transferred to satan and there bodies were now subject to death sickness and emotional consequences.

He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin.

I donít believe this is accurate the next time Adam & Eve heard Gods voice calling out to them, Adam informs God he was afraid because he was naked and hid him self.

Now if God knows all things past present and future why did he then say to Adam WHO told thee you were naked?

If God already knew what Adam had done he shouldíve said WHY did you eat from the tree of knowledge but he doesnít.

It would seem God was unaware of Adams current status and this seems to be confirmed by Gods second question to Adam.

DID you eat from the tree thereof I commanded thee not to eat?

Again if God knew this already he should have said WHY did you eat from the tree I commanded thee not to eat.

Adam immediately blames the women who God asks why she has done this, who in turn implicates the serpent; we are seeing manifestation after manifestation of the flesh because Adam ate from the fruit from the tree of knowledge God immediately curses the serpent but also informs the serpent through the womenís seed salvation will be ordained for humanity and we will be reconciled back to God, we are fortunate that God intervened and come up with a salvation plan us.

When Adam & Eve have there sons Cain and Abel and at the end of days when they bring there offering to God Cainís offering is rejected by God, possibly because Cain didnít give God the best fruits he had.

When Cainís countenance fell God asked him why he was wroth and if he didnít check his intentions that sin lieth at his door and would consume him, Cain Killed his brother we see sin continuing to manifest it self in all shapes and forms

Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God saw mans heart was evil from his youth and it repented the Lord and it grieved God that he had made man and God said I will destroy man. I think it is clear that God didnít create man so he could destroy him because he had made a mistake but rather he made man & women perfect and when they transgressed he had to rescue them from there transgressions, man has manifested there own sin and God has tolerated humanities behavior until he decided it was time to start over again so he flooded the earth,

This is a lesson for us to learn from.

Peace

Sam

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 01:27 PM
Yes it can be humbling if you realize the full extent of this.

With regards to your statements above what do you make of this verse Brorog?

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Paul is talking about the salvation of the gentiles, opposed to the salvation of the Jews. This verse, to me, is part of a bigger question and I think it means that everyone will be judged by a common law and will be saved by a common salvation.
I do not think Paul is trying to say that God caused the gentiles to sin. God applies some sort of law over them that points out their sinfulness.
The Jews were held to a higher standard than the nations because they were expected to be priests to the world. Once a new system of salvation comes along, they would be naturally reluctant to change. Once the gentiles become apparently less sinful, the Jews could have some substantial evidence to support the validity of this new thing.

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 08:40 PM
BrorRog and legoman - while I'm broadly in agreement with what you're posting, what do you make of the verses that predecede and follow 2 Tim 2:20?

Nevertheless the solid foundation of Gosd stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Tim 2:19 NKJV

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honour. 2 Tim 2:21 NKJV

Surely these verses makes clear the vital element of human responsibility - and indeed ACTIVITY (departing and cleansing oneself are of course actions) - albeit enabled by God, of course.

We need to keep divine sovereignty and human responsibility in tension and not overemphasise one and effectively deny the other - Scripture teaches both.

Hi,

Yes, we do have to depart from iniquity. Of course it is not easy, but God will will it. God can cleanse a vessel of dishonor and make it a vessel of honor. In other words, he can turn bad people into good people just because he wills it. He doesn't do it to everyone at the same time, but eventually everyone will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 26:9 "My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness."

I'm sure we were (are?) all vessels of dishonor at some point.

We can say that we (humans) are responsible for our salvation, but again it is really up to God. God chooses us, we don't choose him.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Peace.

legoman
Aug 19th 2008, 08:58 PM
Sorry Sam, your whole argument is the standard line the Church will give, and I don't believe it is scriptural. I think I've covered most of this in other posts in this thread, but I will try to summarize.


Hi everyone,

It is interesting that at face value it may appear that this is a straight forward case of step by step facts and plain old simple logic, however not so for us mere mortals.

Wisdom is always justified of its self.

You have mentioned some very interesting points; so here is some food for thought.

Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure?

It has never been Gods intention for man to suffer or to be separated from him; unfortunately it was the cunning strategy plan of satan to use Eve to deceive Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge that caused him to transgress the commandment and consequence that God had explained to him.
(I will clarify this part later)


This makes it sound like Satan is more powerful than God. Satan is so sneaky that he could sneak into the garden and deceive Adam & Eve without God's knowledge. I thought God was all-powerful and all-knowing?



He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift?

I believe freewill gives us the ability to make right and wrong decisions only, but to imply that God gave Adam & Eve permission to sin with there freewill or that the ability he provides us with was or is to sin is incorrect, it is the demonstration of our own freewill that reveals our thoughts words and deeds, sin is a result or an outcome which comes after what we think say or do and not before it, this is what judges us and holds us accountable before our Father.



Where is the scriptural proof that we have free will? I have given plenty of scriptures that show that we do as God wills and that we don't really have free will.

He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children?

I donít believe God allowed satan into the garden to tempt his children, but rather our Father created earth and then planted a garden which translated is hedge eastward of Eden, where he placed man where he made to grow every tree pleasant to the sight including the tree of life as well as the tree of knowledge. Genesis 2: 8-9

Then commanded he God to the man saying tho mayest eat freely of every tree, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou mayest not eat for in that day you will surely DIE. Genesis 2: 16-7

I donít think God said this to test Adam or to place conditions on him but to warn him in advance that he was welcome to eat from any tree in the garden/hedge of Eden, but he had to identify the tree of knowledge incase Adam accidentally ate from it and he spiritually and immortally KILLED himself.

I believe Adam was grateful and pleased that God had shared this truth with him and this saved Adam from making an unintentional mistake. It appears Adam agreed and understood this quite well for eternity because nothing else happed after that.

It wasnít until the devil came up with a plan to deceive Adam & Eve because he had come to the conclusion that they werenít going to eat from a tree of knowledge, how he deceived them was quite ingenious, he spoke to Eve and asked Eve what God had said, Eve repeated to the serpent what God had said, and the serpent assured Eve that she wouldnít die but her eyes would be OPENED and shall be as gods knowing good and evil.

Eves discernment and understanding was of no comparison the devils and when she looked upon the tree she saw it was good for food and pleasant to the eyes and could make one wise, her imagination convinced her to taste the fruit and she ate thereof, however nothing changed and nothing happened to Eve and this was the ingenious part of the plan that satan had devised to entice Adam.

Adam would have been watching all this and when nothing happened to Eve, Adam would have been curious and studied and observed Eve, the bible says then when Eve gave to Adam and Adam did eat thereof BOTH there eyes were opened.

The reason why this happened was because Eve was given to Adam as a helper and mate so Adam was responsible for Eve so thatís why nothing happened to Eve when she ate from the tree of knowledge, so satan used Eves position and status to trick Adam because Adam wasnít expecting anything to happen.

It was after eating from the tree of knowledge that there eyes and understanding were opened, there spiritual status was severed, dominion of the earth was transferred to satan and there bodies were now subject to death sickness and emotional consequences.

He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin.

I donít believe this is accurate the next time Adam & Eve heard Gods voice calling out to them, Adam informs God he was afraid because he was naked and hid him self.

Now if God knows all things past present and future why did he then say to Adam WHO told thee you were naked?

If God already knew what Adam had done he shouldíve said WHY did you eat from the tree of knowledge but he doesnít.

It would seem God was unaware of Adams current status and this seems to be confirmed by Gods second question to Adam.
Ok obviously you don't believe God is all-knowing, so we will have trouble seeing eye to eye.



DID you eat from the tree thereof I commanded thee not to eat?

Again if God knew this already he should have said WHY did you eat from the tree I commanded thee not to eat.
God is asking a rhetorical question for the benefit of Adam. God already knows what has happened - he is all-knowing. God is acting as a parent would with a little child who has done something wrong. If you spy your 3 your old daughter with her hand in the cookie jar and you might ask "where are you daughter", "what are you doing?", does it mean you don't realize where or what your daughter was doing? No of course not.



Adam immediately blames the women who God asks why she has done this, who in turn implicates the serpent; we are seeing manifestation after manifestation of the flesh because Adam ate from the fruit from the tree of knowledge God immediately curses the serpent but also informs the serpent through the womenís seed salvation will be ordained for humanity and we will be reconciled back to God, we are fortunate that God intervened and come up with a salvation plan us.

When Adam & Eve have there sons Cain and Abel and at the end of days when they bring there offering to God Cainís offering is rejected by God, possibly because Cain didnít give God the best fruits he had.

When Cainís countenance fell God asked him why he was wroth and if he didnít check his intentions that sin lieth at his door and would consume him, Cain Killed his brother we see sin continuing to manifest it self in all shapes and forms

Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God saw mans heart was evil from his youth and it repented the Lord and it grieved God that he had made man and God said I will destroy man. I think it is clear that God didnít create man so he could destroy him because he had made a mistake but rather he made man & women perfect and when they transgressed he had to rescue them from there transgressions, man has manifested there own sin and God has tolerated humanities behavior until he decided it was time to start over again so he flooded the earth,

This is a lesson for us to learn from.

Peace

Sam

If God created Adam perfect, then why did he sin? Perfection cannot be corrupted. Obviously he was created imperfect, as he did sin. It was intentional.

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 10:35 PM
Yes it can be humbling if you realize the full extent of this.

With regards to your statements above what do you make of this verse Brorog?

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The term "all" is a qualifier that is used with either mass or count.

If it were "count" Paul would be teaching universalism here, which I don't think is compatible with the rest of his teaching. In this verse, I think the term "all" indicates something like "both Israel and the rest of the nations too. While it's true that each and every man and woman has been bound "over to disobedience", the Bible teaches that some are bound to mercy and others not.

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 10:38 PM
BrorRog and legoman - while I'm broadly in agreement with what you're posting, what do you make of the verses that predecede and follow 2 Tim 2:20?

Nevertheless the solid foundation of Gosd stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Tim 2:19 NKJV

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honour. 2 Tim 2:21 NKJV

Surely these verses makes clear the vital element of human responsibility - and indeed ACTIVITY (departing and cleansing oneself are of course actions) - albeit enabled by God, of course.

We need to keep divine sovereignty and human responsibility in tension and not overemphasise one and effectively deny the other - Scripture teaches both.

I agree with this.

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 03:00 AM
legoman,

If God created Adam perfect, then why did he sin? Perfection cannot be corrupted. Obviously he was created imperfect, as he did sin. It was intentional.Because this is the pattern we see in scripture as Satan tries to corrupt what God created from His goodness. But God also keeps a remnant safe from his influence. Israel was created in holiness as was the Church, yet both have had corruption enter in because of Satan's influence and lies. It was not intentional but a known fact of what would happen and God prepared in advance for it.

God's "knowingness" need not be of a future dependent upon man that has not yet come into existence. Because He knows exactly what He will do and this is what He does despite the sin of men or Satan. Way before Satan or Adam sinned, God had His plan ready and nothing either might do can deter Him from His course. This is how God is able to call the end from the beginning. He has the preeminence and has taken all possible outcomes into consideration way before any of it happened. He works thru man's sin or his faith, neither of which can prevent His work from progressing to its final end. Satan, no matter how clever, is any match for the Holy God we serve. And man is even less so.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 04:22 AM
legoman,
Because this is the pattern we see in scripture as Satan tries to corrupt what God created from His goodness. But God also keeps a remnant safe from his influence. Israel was created in holiness as was the Church, yet both have had corruption enter in because of Satan's influence and lies. It was not intentional but a known fact of what would happen and God prepared in advance for it.

God's "knowingness" need not be of a future dependent upon man that has not yet come into existence. Because He knows exactly what He will do and this is what He does despite the sin of men or Satan. Way before Satan or Adam sinned, God had His plan ready and nothing either might do can deter Him from His course. This is how God is able to call the end from the beginning. He has the preeminence and has taken all possible outcomes into consideration way before any of it happened. He works thru man's sin or his faith, neither of which can prevent His work from progressing to its final end. Satan, no matter how clever, is any match for the Holy God we serve. And man is even less so.

Are you saying God only knows "all possible outcomes", but not "THE outcome"?

Is Satan's power any match for God? I think your saying at the end that it is not. So how could Satan corrupt Adam & Eve without God's permission?

I'm just trying to understand your position, do any of the following cases match your belief:

1. God created perfect man, and then just let creation carry on without his interaction. Therefore Satan could do exactly what he wanted and corrupt Adam & Eve. Jesus was plan B in this case as God needed a solution to Adam's sin.

OR

2. God created perfect man, but didn't know one way or the other whether Satan would corrupt them. He hoped man would overcome, but they didn't. Jesus was plan B as well in this case.

OR

3. God created perfect man, but 100% knew that they would be corrupted by Satan. Jesus was part of plan A in this case as God knew that Adam would be corrupted.

OR

4. God created imperfect man, with the intention that they should be corrupted by Satan. Again Jesus was part of plan A.


Cases 1 & 2 have the problem that it implies God is not all-knowing.

Case 3 has the problem that it implies God made a mistake. He made something that he thought was perfect but actually wasn't.

Case 4 implies that God planned everything. He was not reactive, but proactive. Instead of reacting to Satan's corruption and Adam's sin, he actually caused it, so his plans could be fulfilled.

Perhaps there are other possible scenarios here?

ikester7579
Aug 20th 2008, 04:31 AM
Sin is a choice. It is not a creation. No where in the word does it say: On this day God created sin.

And because God created man with the choice to sin because of free will. God becomes the indirect creator of sin because sin was the choice of His creation.

So did God create sin directly? No. But through the choice of His creation it becomes indirectly created.

Example: If you have a child that grows up and becomes a thief through free will of choice. Did you create the thief just because he was your child? Will you stand before God having to answer for his sins as well as you own? Nope. Free will makes the choice to sin the individual's fault, not the fault of the person who brought him into the world.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 04:38 AM
The term "all" is a qualifier that is used with either mass or count.


What do you mean by mass or count? Count = all, mass = ?



If it were "count" Paul would be teaching universalism here, which I don't think is compatible with the rest of his teaching. In this verse, I think the term "all" indicates something like "both Israel and the rest of the nations too. While it's true that each and every man and woman has been bound "over to disobedience", the Bible teaches that some are bound to mercy and others not.These verses are confusing to me... When you say all means "both Israel and the rest of the nations", who does that leave out? Wouldn't that be the traditional meaning of "all"?

Here is the verses in context:

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Verse 31 is referring to "they" which I believe is Israel.

Verse 32 really sounds like its referring to "all" - that is everyone.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 04:42 AM
Sin is a choice. It is not a creation. No where in the word does it say: On this day God created sin.

And because God created man with the choice to sin because of free will. God becomes the indirect creator of sin because sin was the choice of His creation.

So did God create sin directly? No. But through the choice of His creation it becomes indirectly created.

Example: If you have a child that grows up and becomes a thief through free will of choice. Did you create the thief just because he was your child? Will you stand before God having to answer for his sins as well as you own? Nope. Free will makes the choice to sin the individual's fault, not the fault of the person who brought him into the world.

The God parent/analogy only works so far because Parents don't have foreknowledge.

God does.

Where is the scriptural support for free-will? Where is the scripture that says God does not know what will happen?

Diolectic
Aug 20th 2008, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Diolectic
Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?


This is demented.
We are sentient beings in the likeness and image of God, that is who we are to ask.Paul says that God created men and women to judge in order to demonstrate his wrath. And he says the ultimate destiny of these folks is destruction.
Please give scripture to backup what you say.


I believe Paul's point is to say that it is not unjust for God to purposely assign certain people to destruction and others to salvation because God, as creator, has the right to do whatever he wants with his creation.
God would only assign certain people to destruction because the their own fault of disobedience.
Their assignment is not one that was made beforehand.

No one is assign to destruction just because they were born for that purpose, because no one is born for that purpose.
It is not said that Pharaoh was born for, but was raised to the throne for a particular purpose. That purpose was that God might show His power in him. It is not said that God raised him up to destroy him. His power might have been shown by Pharaoh yielding to his power.

There is no reason for God to show His wrath just because He wants to, but because HE has to.


If a toilet could talk, Paul says, It wouldn't ask "why did you make me a toilet?" Obviously, the answer would be, "I needed a toilet."

If this offends you, welcome to the club.
Actually the answer is "you made yourself like that by stubornly refusing to obey Me(God), therefore, your under judgment & I(God) gave you over to your own ways(Romans 1:24,26,28), & you took the offer. You are still to blaim and are still able to repent.

Quite yer belly akin' and do as I say."
Romans 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
If one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?
As Pharaoh had a hard heart, he too, could also repent as Paul knows they could.

Your answer is offensive because it makes God a sadistic tyrant.


Many people have this reaction the first time they come to terms with this truth.2They have that reaction because in reality, it is wrong.

Fact is, God apoints/pre-ordaines all mankind to obedience & to worship Him.
The reason for Judgment is because of willful disobedience & not doing that which they were created for, not because of a pre-ordination to disobedience.

If one is pre-ordained to disobedience, they would be doing God's will by disobeying & God couldn't condemn them for doing that which they are created for.
Their disobedience would actually be obedience.

Diolectic
Aug 20th 2008, 02:25 PM
The way to explain Romand 9:19-20:
19: After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
20: Why did You make me like this?
The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways.God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God was the cause. There is no doubt about it. Just do a search for "Pharaoh heart" on biblegateway. Here are some of the verses.
Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27, etc. - these all say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pretty self explanatory.

Then we have verses like Exodus 8:32 "But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go."

Does 8:32 contradict the other multiple verses that say GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart? NO. There is no contradiction - God's word does not contradict. The answer is God made Pharaoh harden his own heart! God didn't let Pharaoh harden his own heart. God made Pharaoh harden his own heart. God is the cause of Pharaoh's heart being hardened as demonstrated by Exodus 7:3, 9:12, 10:1, etc.
Pharaoh had NO free will. How could he resist God's will? He couldn't.
1Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?
The way to explain God hardening Pharaoh's heart is like this:
A proud king thinks he is a gid, in come a lowly shepherd and demands to let his slaves free.
This hardens Pharaoh's heart.

God hardened his heart as I would harden yours by offending you.

You still harden your own heart, but it is as IF I did it by my offence.


God will & must make sense! HE is not nonsensical, HE dwells in reality.Yes of course God will & must make sense. You missed my point - if some scripture doesn't make sense to us, perhaps we're not seeing the big picture. In my opinion, the scriptures say CLEARLY that we don't have free will. Now if this doesn't fit with other preconceived ideas, then what is more likely - the scriptures are wrong or our idea of what makes sense (our idea that we have free will) is wrong.
Our idea of what makes sence is universally known & given by God.

If something don't make sense no matter what, the wise thing to do is change the interpretation to one that does.
This is the correct way to good, sound theology.

If you can't make any sence out of an interpretation, why keep that interpretation?
If your interpretation or theology makes God out to be a sadistic tyrant, why keep it?

You loose credit in your witness if your religion(theology) is nonsensical.

Try explaning a sadistic tyrant god to an unsaved person & they will scorn you.

However, if & when God does something which does not make sense, it is when HE deals with someone personaly, & then He will give that one a sense of knowledge to trust, and it will make perfect sense in the end.
Furthemore, as He deals with the world as the world may view Him, He would never cause them to stumble as to make them think that He never makes sence, or to make the world to see Him as a tyrant.

It ain't as there is no escape from sin after He gives them over to it. It would be rediculous for God to make it impossible to do that which HE commands. He commands the to repent, tnen to make it impossible would be tyrnnical.

Pharaoh could still obey God after he was given over to his sin.(Romans 2:5But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

It was God's will that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. There was no other option.True but not because God wanted it, but God had to.


Do you think God would let Pharaoh's will get in the way of God's plan?No, God uses what He gets.
If one wants to disobey God, then God will use your disobedience.
However, God would always rather use your obedience.



if one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?
As Pharaoh had a hard heart, he too, could also repent as Paul knows they could.)
That kind of judgment is to bring the sinner to his end so that he would see where he has briught himself.
Why would you give an impression of Hod being a tyrant?Someone with a hard heart could repent if God willed it. Paul himself is the prime example.
Your implying that God does not want someone to repent.
That is contrary to Acts 17:30.

What ever God commands is His will.


I am NOT giving an impression of God being a tyrant. I am explaining that God is all-powerful and all-knowing with complete foreknowledge.
Yes you are giving an impression of God being a tyrant.
Anyone who comnands someone to do anything which is imposible & condemns them for not complying is tyrannical.
Any entity who would create sentiant beings for the sole purpos to be tormented for eternity is sadistic.


Here is an amazing verse:

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all"

Yet again, doesn't look like free will to me. God binds us into disobedience. Kind of like making a pot for dishonor. But the 2nd part is beautiful - he does this so he may have mercy on us! Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me (praise God!).
A better interpretation of that verse is this:
But the scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under sin(disobedience), that he might have mercy upon all. & So that the promise through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22

God has proven them to be under sin(disobedience) by the law which is the evidence which God uses.

God prooves that they are.
Romans 3:9 for we have proved before that both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.

Romans 11:32 is to be interpretated as there is proof of their disobedience. & God gave the law to convict men of their sin so they may repent and receive mercy.



Vessels of dishonor are as being judgment in, why would God create or have anyone born for the sole purpose of judgment?
This is demented.This argument doesn't help your cause. You could say the above statement regardless of whether free will is true or not.

Either:
1. free will is true - why does God make some people who he knows will end up in judgement?

OR

2. free will is not true - why does God make some people who he predestines for judgement?

Notice the above 2 questions, the only difference is whether God "knows" or God "predestines". This is the crux of the No-free-will argument. God knowing how it turns all out is the same thing as God causing it to turn out that way.
#1 mankind has a choice weather to odey or disobey, which makes it there own fault for being condemned.

#2 No one has a choice, thus, no one is at fault, which makes it God's fault for man being condemned.

Why does God make some people who he knows will end up in judgement?
why would a loving God create those He knows will not repent?
God created the world in which the most possible souls repent with the least amount of accountability and judgment for those who don't repent.
If God did not create those whom He knows will not repent, that alteration of this optimum amount of repented souls would change the circumstances to where it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds which could have been created.

If God knew men would not repent, why did God create them?
I will give an example to answer this one.
My intention is to invite & to dine with my whole neighborhood to my favorite restaurant.
I know that most will not come and dine with me, however, that does not change my intention to do so.

Then, come the questions:
why would I intend on inviting those who I know will not show up?
It is because I love them, the invitation proves my love for them. Furthermore, if I don't invite those who I know will not come, it will cause some that I know who will come to deny my invitation.
Or,
Why would God created those HE knows will not repent?
It is because HE loves them anyway, the invitation of the Cross of Christ to repent proves His love for them. Furthermore, if HE didn't create those that HE knows will not repent, it will cause some that HE knows who will repent to not repent .
Just as in real life, God will use the death of a person(saved or not) to cause another to come to Him.
If God didn't create them, it would cause more to not repent as the other alternative worlds.

Your question #2 if Why does God make some people who he predestines for judgement?
There is no reasonable answer to this without sadistical tyranny.

BroRog
Aug 20th 2008, 02:37 PM
Sin is a choice. It is not a creation. No where in the word does it say: On this day God created sin.

And because God created man with the choice to sin because of free will. God becomes the indirect creator of sin because sin was the choice of His creation.

So did God create sin directly? No. But through the choice of His creation it becomes indirectly created.

Example: If you have a child that grows up and becomes a thief through free will of choice. Did you create the thief just because he was your child? Will you stand before God having to answer for his sins as well as you own? Nope. Free will makes the choice to sin the individual's fault, not the fault of the person who brought him into the world.

Free will is no excuse or explanation for sin. Jesus had free will and yet he was without sin.

BroRog
Aug 20th 2008, 02:52 PM
What do you mean by mass or count? Count = all, mass = ?

These verses are confusing to me... When you say all means "both Israel and the rest of the nations", who does that leave out? Wouldn't that be the traditional meaning of "all"?

Here is the verses in context:

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Verse 31 is referring to "they" which I believe is Israel.

Verse 32 really sounds like its referring to "all" - that is everyone.

Okay, let me use a mundane example.

As of a couple of days ago, China had won 35 gold metals in the Olympics. Now, if I were to go and ask a man on the street, "where are your 35 gold metals?" He would say to me, "What do you mean. My country won the metals, not me personally."

Now Paul says Israel was disobedient in verse 31. If I were to go and ask the man on the street, "why were you disobedient?" He would say, "what do you mean? My country was disobedient. My leaders were disobedient. Paul wasn't talking about me personally."

And that's right. When Paul says that Israel was disobedient, he was talking about the time that Israel's leaders pushed the Roman government to put Jesus on the cross. But, as it turns out, this act of disobedience resulted in salvation for us.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 06:04 PM
Here is another way to look at it.

God created everything - God is responsible for the creation.

He created us with a will, but not a free will. We make choices voluntarily. We sin voluntarily. We are sinful by nature. This makes us accountable. We do what we decide to do. As you say, we are sentient beings and not robots.

But what caused us to make those choices & decisions? "Something" causes us to make every decision we make every day. If "something" causes us to pick action A instead of action B, we were never "free" to pick action B.

The question is what is the "something" that causes us to make our choices? Well it could be many things, but eventually it all comes back to God. God sets up all circumstances. These circumstances affect our choices. We make the choices, but we were not free to make any other choice than God intended.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 06:08 PM
Now Paul says Israel was disobedient in verse 31. If I were to go and ask the man on the street, "why were you disobedient?" He would say, "what do you mean? My country was disobedient. My leaders were disobedient. Paul wasn't talking about me personally."


Ok I can buy into your argument for verse 31. Verse 31 is talking about "they" - which could refer to Israel's people or Israel's leaders - that would be another debate.



And that's right. When Paul says that Israel was disobedient, he was talking about the time that Israel's leaders pushed the Roman government to put Jesus on the cross. But, as it turns out, this act of disobedience resulted in salvation for us.Verse 32 is a tougher nut to crack though. It doesn't say "all men of Israel" or "all men who are leaders of Israel" or "all men who I was just talking about in the previous verse". It simply says "all men".

Not sure what to make of it.

BroRog
Aug 20th 2008, 07:56 PM
Ok I can buy into your argument for verse 31. Verse 31 is talking about "they" - which could refer to Israel's people or Israel's leaders - that would be another debate.

Verse 32 is a tougher nut to crack though. It doesn't say "all men of Israel" or "all men who are leaders of Israel" or "all men who I was just talking about in the previous verse". It simply says "all men".

Not sure what to make of it.

If we remain focused on individual verses, one at a time, we tend to loose the argument Paul is trying to make. Arguments develop over many verses and take time. If we go back a few verses we pick up this same point earlier.

As Paul makes his arguments, sometimes he prefaces his argument with a question. In this case he asks,

"I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!"

Here Paul is talking about the nation/country of Israel. He is asking, did the nation/country of Israel fall? The answer comes back, "May it never be."

But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

What was the national transgression that brought salvation to the Gentiles? Was it not the crucifixion of Jesus? I believe it was. Paul is talking about a national transgression, a sin that brought salvation to the rest of us.

Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

A national failure of Israel resulted in riches for the other nations (ethnos: Nations.) By comparison then, since the failure of Israel resulted in something fantastic, their fulfillment will be something even more fantastic.

In order to show why God has not rejected his people and why their transgression did not cause them to fall, he draws a correlation between Israel's history and how it affected the rest of the world. Historically, Israel as a nation rejected God's love and correction. And when the Messiah came, the nation put him on the cross. But instead of this resulting in a worldwide tragedy, it resulted in salvation for the rest of the world.

Then Paul will make his case for why universal salvation itself did not indicate God's rejection of national Israel. God's leal-love lasts forever and so he will continue to work through Israeli history to affect the rest of the world.

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 08:05 PM
BroRog,
And just like we must stay in context to get the gist of what Paul is saying as it concerns who in Israel he has in view, we must go back to this verse:

(Rom 11:4 KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

The "all" Israel is the remnant - none of whom will be lost, because God will not let them fall completely. This is in context with Ch 10 were he says that it will be thru the hearing of the gospel from the preachers He sends to them that they will be turned from their unbelief. It is not universally speaking of the entire nation, only those chosen and kept by God. Because it is also clear that judgment is coming upon the rest.

legoman
Aug 20th 2008, 09:15 PM
1Sam 6:6Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?
The way to explain God hardening Pharaoh's heart is like this:
A proud king thinks he is a gid, in come a lowly shepherd and demands to let his slaves free.
This hardens Pharaoh's heart.


Diolectic, I already explained this.

There are many scriptures that say God hardened Pharaoh's heart and there are some more scriptures that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Are we to pick and choose which scriptures we want and ignore the others that don't support our case? No, of course not, that would imply a contradiction in God's word. The only way that both scriptures can be true is if the following is true:

God hardened pharaoh's heart by providing the causes (circumstances) that made Pharaoh harden his own heart.

You said God had to hardaren pharaoh's heart "not because God wanted it, but [because] God had to". Really? You think a puny human like Pharaoh can make God do something he doesn't want to? Come on, give me a break. You are saying man's will is higher than God's will.


If your interpretation or theology makes God out to be a sadistic tyrant, why keep it?

You loose credit in your witness if your religion(theology) is nonsensical.

Try explaning a sadistic tyrant god to an unsaved person & they will scorn you.


Like I said before, the "God is a tyrant" argument has no relevance on the non-existence of free-will. We've all heard the arguments from unbelievers/athiests before: "What? God will send me to hell just because I didn't choose him with my own free will? What about those who've never heard, they never even had an opportunity to use their free will to choose him! Your God is a tyrant and blah blah blah".

I don't want to get into that debate because I don't believe either of us think God is a tyrant.

Let me refocus the debate.

Do you truly believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful?
Do you believe God knows the beginning and the end (and everything in between)?
Do you believe God's will is sovereign?
Do you believe God knows everything about us before we were even born?
Do you believe God knows when each person will be born and when each person will die?
Do you believe God knows the number of hairs on your head, at each moment in your life?
Do you believe God knew all of this from the BEGINNING, before he even created Adam & Eve and the universe?

The scriptural answer to all these questions is YES. If you don't believe the answer to all these questions is yes, then I could see how you might believe in free-will. I would also say you should do more study in this area.

But if you really look at this - God knows everything at everytime, even the number of hairs on my head - how can free-will possibly exist? If free-will did exist, you could strike out God's sovereignty by simply taking out some scissors and cutting off a clump of hair. Darn, because you exercised free-will, God didn't know you were going to cut off some hair. God is not really all-knowing.

Now, you might say to me "stop right there legoman, God knew you were going to cut off that hair because God is all-knowing". Exactly! Then how could I have done anything different?

Free-will cannot exist with a soverign all-knowing all-powerful God.

Diolectic
Aug 20th 2008, 09:23 PM
Here is another way to look at it.

God created everything - God is responsible for the creation.

He created us with a will, but not a free will. We make choices voluntarily. We sin voluntarily. We are sinful by nature. This makes us accountable. We do what we decide to do. As you say, we are sentient beings and not robots.

But what caused us to make those choices & decisions? "Something" causes us to make every decision we make every day. If "something" causes us to pick action A instead of action B, we were never "free" to pick action B.

The question is what is the "something" that causes us to make our choices? The factors in our decision making are our priorities and value system which we set up throughout our life.

We build our priorities and value system from the things we know and believe.
IOW, things we know and believe play a part in what we put our affections on to build our priorities and value system

However, sin plays a big part with the things which we beleive.
We may value and put a priority on a sin that makes us believe a lie, which in turn perverts our priorities and value system.

The flesh is what is sympathetic to the sins.


Well it could be many things, but eventually it all comes back to God. God sets up all circumstances.We, ourselves set up all circumstances from the choices we make.
Why are you trying to make God at fault for your crappy decision which got you in that circumstance?


These circumstances affect our choices. We make the choices, but we were not free to make any other choice than God intendedWe are always free to make any other choice.
God always intends for man to repent and to put their faith on/in Him!

It is ones own sin that hinders that man form doing that which God intended.
However that man is still responcible to make the right decision even though there is sin hindering, for God is faithful, who will not allow anyone to be tempted above that they are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that anyone may be able to endure it.

Diolectic
Aug 21st 2008, 12:46 AM
1Sam 6:6Why then do you harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had worked wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?


Here, this Scripture actually say that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God didn't. Why didn't this Scripture say that God did it?


The way to explain God hardening Pharaoh's heart is like this:


A proud king thinks he is a gid, in come a lowly shepherd and demands to let his slaves free.

Diolectic, I already explained this.

There are many scriptures that say God hardened Pharaoh's heart and there are some more scriptures that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Are we to pick and choose which scriptures we want and ignore the others that don't support our case? No, of course not, that would imply a contradiction in God's word. The only way that both scriptures can be true is if the following is true:

God hardened pharaoh's heart by providing the causes (circumstances) that made Pharaoh harden his own heart.
That is how God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
As long as you don't thing that God supernaturally made his heart hard.

This way, it remains Pharaoh's own fault & not God's.
Pharaoh always had a choice, because circumstances can not make us do anything, they can only make a decision more difficult, but not impossible.

You said God had to harden pharaoh's heart "not because God wanted it, but [because] God had to". Really? You think a puny human like Pharaoh can make God do something he doesn't want to?
There are many times that god gad to do things which He didn't want.

God doesn't want to judge, He has to because of sin.

God didn't want to kick Adam out of the Garden, He had to lest he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever.

God didn't want to be crucified, He had to for atonement.

Come on, give me a break. You are saying man's will is higher than God's will.[/QUOTE]No, but it is independent from God's will. And usually in contradiction to it.

[QUOTE]If your interpretation or theology makes God out to be a sadistic tyrant, why keep it?

You loose credit in your witness if your religion(theology) is nonsensical.

Try explaning a sadistic tyrant god to an unsaved person & they will scorn you.


Like I said before, the "God is a tyrant" argument has no relevance on the non-existence of free-will. We've all heard the arguments from unbelievers/athiests before: "What? God will send me to hell just because I didn't choose him with my own free will? What about those who've never heard, they never even had an opportunity to use their free will to choose him! Your God is a tyrant and blah blah blah".

I don't want to get into that debate because I don't believe either of us think God is a tyrant.
Neither of us think God is a tyrant, but, bad theology can present God as one.
Calvin surely presents God as one.



Let me refocus the debate.

Do you truly believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful?God knows all objects of knowledge.
A thought which is not yet thought of can not be known.
However, God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do.
But that doesn't mmean He knows what you will bee thinking tomarow morning.
Since God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do, HE can manipulate things for certain circumstances to come about for you to do what He wants.

As He works/plans around sin, which thwarts HIS better plan, He leads all things up to His ultimat goal, whuch we read about in Revelations.
That is not untill the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins".


Do you believe God knows the beginning and the end (and everything in between)?
Yes, His wisdom foresees all events.

Not that He actually sees them as if they already happened.


Do you believe God's will is sovereign?
Sovereign does not mean "ultimate cause of everything" nor does it mean "ultimate controller/domination of everything"
All that sovereignty means is ultimate authority of everything &
All are accountable to Him.


Do you believe God knows everything about us before we were even born?
Yes, He knows that we will thwart His better plan.
Note: God's better plan does not consist with sin in it.
Would you think that God's better plan was:
A: Adam to not eat of the tree.
B: Adam to eat of the tree.

If you would choose B, you think that God set Adam up to fail.
You think that God wanted Adam to disobey.
You think that God would rather crucify His Son just to show His glory instead of man obedient with no need for atonement which would be even more glorious...ect...


Do you believe God knows when each person will be born and when each person will die?
Yes, His wisdom foresees all events.


Do you believe God knows the number of hairs on your head, at each moment in your life?Yes


Do you believe God knew all of this from the BEGINNING, before he even created Adam & Eve and the universe
Yes, His wisdom foresees all events.
It ain't like He knows first hand.


The scriptural answer to all these questions is YES. If you don't believe the answer to all these questions is yes, then I could see how you might believe in free-will. I would also say you should do more study in this area.

But if you really look at this - God knows everything at every time, even the number of hairs on my head - how can free-will possibly exist?If it don't, we are not at fault for anything.


If free-will did exist, you could strike out God's sovereignty by simply taking out some scissors and cutting off a clump of hair. Darn, because you exercised free-will, God didn't know you were going to cut off some hair. God is not really all-knowing.

Now, you might say to me "stop right there legoman, God knew you were going to cut off that hair because God is all-knowing". Exactly! Then how could I have done anything different? The knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them.


Free-will cannot exist with a sovereign all-knowing all-powerful God.
Sure it can, God is wise enough to know every free will choice in advance and work/make planes around them.

BroRog
Aug 21st 2008, 02:12 AM
Please give scripture to backup what you say.

Romans 9:22-23


God would only assign certain people to destruction because the their own fault of disobedience.


Paul says God creates people to be destroyed.


No one is assign to destruction just because they were born for that purpose, because no one is born for that purpose.


So you disagree with Paul?



There is no reason for God to show His wrath just because He wants to, but because HE has to.


Are you saying God can't do what he wants?


Actually the answer is "you made yourself like that by stubornly refusing to obey Me(God), therefore, your under judgment & I(God) gave you over to your own ways(Romans 1:24,26,28), & you took the offer. You are still to blaim and are still able to repent.

Paul draws an analogy between a potter and a pot. The pot does not make itself.


Romans 2:5But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
If one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?

Paul says that some are made for destruction. How they get a hard heart, or why their heart continues to remain hard is beside the point.


Your answer is offensive because it makes God a sadistic tyrant.

If you are offended, speak to Paul about it if you see him.

legoman
Aug 21st 2008, 04:19 AM
God knows all objects of knowledge.
A thought which is not yet thought of can not be known.
However, God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do.
But that doesn't mmean He knows what you will bee thinking tomarow morning.
Since God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do, HE can manipulate things for certain circumstances to come about for you to do what He wants.


When you say a "thought which is not yet thought of can not be known", you are saying God does not have perfect foreknowledge and He does not know everything.


Yes, His wisdom foresees all events.

Not that He actually sees them as if they already happened.


If he forsees all events, does that not include our thoughts? And if he forsees it, it will happen. Nothing else could happen.



The knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them.
You are not making logical sense. If God knows something will happen, it will happen. I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this.

Foreknowledge precludes the possibility that we could have freewill. If God already knows what we will do, we cannot do anything different.

Because God has foreknowledge, no one is free to do any thought or action that would make that foreknowledge false!



Sure it can, God is wise enough to know every free will choice in advance and work/make planes around them.

You are saying God only knows all possible outcomes of our alleged "free will". And he makes plans to deal with each of those outcomes. But he doesn't know which final outcome will occur. In effect, you are saying God does not have perfect foreknowledge and is not all-knowing. This is completely unscriptural.

BrckBrln
Aug 21st 2008, 04:27 AM
A thought which is not yet thought of can not be known.

:rofl: You love free will just a wee bit too much don't you think? I mean, if you're willing to limit God like that...

philloman
Aug 21st 2008, 04:10 PM
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

What is Light? Is that not Jesus?
What is dark? Is that not nothing?

Darkness is nothing. It is the absence of Light. Light on the other hand is something.

Everything that God created was "very good".

What God gave His supreme creation, man, a simple choice; to choose Him or not. There are no other choices. We either choose something or we choose nothing. We either choose God considering that God is Light or we choose darkness which is in fact Nothing.

All of God's creation was "very good", but He provided man alone a choice. By not choosing God, man then took the "very good" things in God's creation (including himself) and misused them and this misuse is "sin" or "evil".

I all happens that way because chooses "nothing" instead of choosing God.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

All of the evil choices we apparently have are simply different ways to misuse God's creation. They all in fact in God's eyes amount to choosing nothing.

Diolectic
Aug 21st 2008, 04:21 PM
Paul says that God created men and women to judge in order to demonstrate his wrath. And he says the ultimate destiny of these folks is destruction.Please give scripture to backup what you say.Romans 9:22-23
Whenever one reads about God being the Potter & us being clay, one must always put it in context of Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.

The Potter doesn't mar the clay Himself, He is a master at it, He makes no mistakes & does not change His mind in the middle of forming the vessel,
The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away after the flaw in it is found to mar his creation, but He use the same lump to make diferently.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.

The reason that the Potter reforms the lump into a vessle of dishonor/wrath is because during the process of making a vessel of honor, The clay is mared in His hands because of a flaw in the clay.
The clay can not be used for an honorable purpose becaue the flaw will be unsightly in the finished product.

The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.

Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel, not because He wanted to.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred, the flaw is sin. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed



God would only assign certain people to destruction because the their own fault of disobedience. Paul says God creates people to be destroyed.
I realy don't know how you can't see anything wrong in that.

Your interpretation of the Scripture is why you present God as a sadistic tyrant.
God would not do as you claim, He is love. You deny Scripture as you come to your conclusion.

Before you come to a conclusion of an interpretation of Scripture, first pray and ask God if that is who He realy is.


No one is assign to destruction just because they were born for that purpose, because no one is born for that purpose.So you disagree with Paul?So you mis-interpretate Paul.
Exodus 9:16 howbeit, for this sake I keep you alive, in order to make you see My power, and that My name may resound in the entire earth.(Complete Jewish Bible)
17 And yet exalt you yourself against my people, that you will not let them go?(KJB)
"yet" pharaohexalts himself against God's people.
This is an expression of wonder or amazement.
As if God is saying, "I let you live and you still rebel"?

IOW, God let Pharaoh to keep living to show Pharaoh HIS power in him. Yet, Pharaoh still is proude and rebellious.

This is why Paul sais Romans 9:18 Therefore, God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

God had Mercy on Pharaoh by keeping him alive to show him His power & He also hardens pharaoh by happenstance in the circumstance of the plagues.

It does not say that Pharaoh was born for wrath.




There is no reason for God to show His wrath just because He wants to, but because HE has to.Are you saying God can't do what he wants?Actually the answer is "you made yourself like that by stubornly refusing to obey Me(God), therefore, your under judgment & I(God) gave you over to your own ways(Romans 1:24,26,28), & you took the offer. You are still to blaim and are still able to repent.Paul draws an analogy between a potter and a pot. The pot does not make itself.I know it deosn't make it's self, but if you read the co-text to Romans 9:21-23, which is Jeremiah 18:2-6, the context to Jeremiah 18:2-6 is as I explaind above in my response to your first.




Romans 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;If one who has a hard heart can not repent, why then is Paul preaching to them as if they could?Paul says that some are made for destruction. How they get a hard heart, or why their heart continues to remain hard is beside the point.It is not beside the point, it is in the point.
Actualy, in Romans 9:22 the clay is fitted/re-formed for destruction not created or born for that purpose.
If you look at the Greek word for "fitted" (for distruction) you will see that it means adjust, prepare, to mend, restore...ect...


Your answer is offensive because it makes God a sadistic tyrant.If you are offended, speak to Paul about it if you see him
I'm not offended at Paul, but your theology/doctrine and your interpretation of the Scriptures.

One must be very careful forming theology/doctrine. Study intensly through prayer all the co-texts & contexts of the Scriptures without bias toward a certain theory.

Diolectic
Aug 21st 2008, 04:29 PM
God knows all objects of knowledge.

A thought which is not yet thought of can not be known.

However, God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do.

But that doesn't mean He knows what you will bee thinking tomorrow morning.

Since God knows you so well, He knows what you will choose before you do, HE can manipulate things for certain circumstances to come about for you to do what He wantsWhen you say a "thought which is not yet thought of can not be known", you are saying God does not have perfect foreknowledge and He does not know everything.
How can God have perfect knowledge of something that is not yet created which is also not created by Him
We create our own thoughts, before we have that though it does not exist, especially in God's mind because He will not be the author of it.
How could God have perfect knowledge of something that He will not create?

However, God is infinitely wise, He knows us so very well, that He knows how & why we will act, what we will choose & why we will choose



Yes, His wisdom foresees all events.
Not that He actually sees them as if they already happened. If he foresees all events, does that not include our thoughts? And if he foresees it
He knows/foresees that we will have thoughts, He can not know what they are until we have them, because they are our own creations, not His.


it will happen. Nothing else could happenHowever, it happens because we chose it to happen.
We chose, He knew we would.



The knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them.You are not making logical sense. If God knows something will happen, it will happen. I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this
Of course it will happen, but God did not cause it, we did & God knew about it in advance.
I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this.


Foreknowledge precludes the possibility that we could have freewill. If God already knows what we will do, we cannot do anything different.Because God has foreknowledge, no one is free to do any thought or action that would make that foreknowledge false!
Gods foreknowledge is knowing beforehand what we choose.
Election and predestination is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I know will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
Romans 8:29, 1Peter 1:2
God may very well manipulate our circumstances to lead us to choose a certain way. However, our choice is always & remains free.
If our choice is not free and we choose wrong, we are not to blame, for we had no control of that wrong choice.


Sure it can, God is wise enough to know every free will choice in advance and work/make planes around them.You are saying God only knows all possible outcomes of our alleged "free will". And he makes plans to deal with each of those outcomes. But he doesn't know which final outcome will occurClose, but not enough. I never said God doesn't know the final outcome, He does, thatís called wisdom.

In effect, you are saying God does not have perfect foreknowledge and is not all-knowing. This is completely unscriptural.
In effect, I am saying God does have perfect foreknowledge & is all knowing of all knowable things.
It is very Scriptural if only you understand.
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes did see me as an embryo; and in your book they(my days) were all written, the days [will be] fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.
God knows what He will do & He knows what we will do.

Friend of I AM
Aug 21st 2008, 04:38 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.

No I don't think God has defined himself as a tempter, nor do I think that he created sin. I do think within him is freedom, and with this freedom comes the ability to choose and that in chosing opposite to what God has defined as his will for us we sin.

I think God allowed man to be subjected to the bad choice that was made, in order to bring about true hope/faith/love for his fellow man as well as for God. God could have reversed his decision and had mercy on man from the onset, but I think he decided to allow man to remain subjected to sin and death for the reasons listed above.

I think that this decision unto itself actually benefited man as oppossed to hurting him in the long run, as man now has greater access in having a true loving relationship with his creator through Christ Jesus.

Diolectic
Aug 21st 2008, 04:59 PM
:rofl: You love free will just a wee bit too much don't you think? I mean, if you're willing to limit God like that...
You need to prayerfully study the Scriptures without bias or prejudice.:pray:

legoman
Aug 21st 2008, 05:42 PM
Ugh.

:giveup:

You contradict yourself Diolectic:



How can God have perfect knowledge of something that is not yet created which is also not created by Him


So you now you think there is something in existence that God didn't create? LOL. God doesn't know our thoughts cause he didn't create them? Is there another god that creates ours thoughts? Oh yes, you answer that in the next section. This is other "competing god" is MAN.



He knows/foresees that we will have thoughts, He can not know what they are until we have them, because they are our own creations, not His.
Therefore you are saying God is not all-knowing - because in order to be all-knowing, he would know everything - including our thoughts. Seems simple to me.



Election and predestination is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.


Nice analogy, unfortunately it falls a little short because you don't have perfect foreknowledge. God does. I suppose your analogy works for you though because your "god" has no better foreknowledge than yourself. What kind of a weak god do you think created the universe, angels, satan, all humans, even time itself, claims to know the beginning and the end, but doesn't actually know what we will think? Perhaps you don't realize God is outside of time. He can see any (and all) moments in time. He can do this more easily than we can fast forward through a movie to find out how it ends. Because he produced, directed, and acted in this great movie.



I never said God doesn't know the final outcome, He does, thatís called wisdom.
In effect, I am saying God does have perfect foreknowledge & is all knowing of all knowable things.
It is very Scriptural if only you understand.

Your argument is so full of contradictions its laughable. God knows the final outcome, but he doesn't know what our thoughts will be? First you say God doesn't know everything, now you say he has perfect foreknowledge? What is the definition of perfect foreknowledge if its not knowing everything?



Psalm 139:16
Your eyes did see me as an embryo; and in your book they(my days) were all written, the days [will be] fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.
God knows what He will do & He knows what we will do.Yet another scripture that proves we CANNOT have free will. God saw us before we born. He sees all of our days, and what happens in them. This includes our thoughts Diolectic. 100% perfect foreknowledge.


Psalm 94:11 "The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile."

Psalm 139:2-4
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

Proverbs 15:26 "The LORD detests the thoughts of the wicked, but those of the pure are pleasing to him."

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."


Sorry if I came across as rude in this post, but I'm just a little frustrated. I doubt I will be able to continue this debate with you as we don't seem to share the common fundamentals (God created and knows EVERYTHING).

I will pray God opens your eyes.

All the best,
Legoman

CAE
Aug 21st 2008, 07:21 PM
Most arguments about hot subjects in the Bible many times comes down to semantical arguments. Did God invent sin? If you say no, then you must say that God did not create everything that is. Well, we don't want to say that, so we are trapped.

Not so, some things can not be explained, such as the very existence of God. This can not be explained because no man can know God completely because man lacks the mental compaction to do so. So, through logic we give our best effort to explain God and finally we are forced to just admit that God "just is" and this is our default position in explaining the existence of God. That is good enough for me.

I think the Bible teaches that all sin is a product of unbelief. God did not create unbelief. That is something that just is and man happened to invent it himself by being unable to explain things to himself. Some things must be taken for what things are. God can not commit sin because He knows everything and has no doubt. Man doubts everything, it seems. To doubt everything to some is the intellectual things to do but to me that's stupidity. How about you?

Diolectic
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:20 PM
Ugh.

You contradict yourself Diolectic:
How & where?


How can God have perfect knowledge of something that is not yet created which is also not created by Him.
He knows/foresees that we will have thoughts, He can not know what they are until we have them, because they are our own creations, not His.Therefore you are saying God is not all-knowing - because in order to be all-knowing, he would know everything - including our thoughts. Seems simple to me.He does know our thoughts as we think them.
How could He know sa thought that is non existant before you think of it?



Election and predestination is like this:


I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.Nice analogy, unfortunately it falls a little short because you don't have perfect foreknowledge.I did have perfect foreknowledge, I foreknew that my wife would choose "Olive Garden".
My foreknowledge was perfect because she did choose "Olive Garden".

However, that don't matter because it is only an analogy.



I never said God doesn't know the final outcome, He does, that's called wisdom.
In effect, I am saying God does have perfect foreknowledge & is all knowing of all knowable things.
It is very Scriptural if only you understand.Your argument is so full of contradictions its laughable. God knows the final outcome, but he doesn't know what our thoughts will be? First you say God doesn't know everything, now you say he has perfect foreknowledge? What is the definition of perfect foreknowledge if its not knowing everything?[/quote]What is the contradiction?



Psalm 139:16 Your eyes did see me as an embryo; and in your book they(my days) were all written, the days [will be] fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.Yet another scripture that proves we CANNOT have free will. God saw us before we born. He sees all of our days, and what happens in them. This includes our thoughts Diolectic. 100% perfect foreknowledge.Your not getting it because of your bias & prejudous.

How is seeing us before we are born negating free will?
How is seeing us before we are born knowing our future thoughts?

Psalm 94:11The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.
I not denying that God knows the thoughts of man, but only our future thoughts.

Psalm 139:2-4
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you understand my thoughts from afar.
from afar = Stongs Hebrew #7350
raw-khoke', רחוק
remote, far, distant, distant lands, distant ones
Same Hebrew words for these verses that shows distance:
Gen 22:4, Gen 37:18, Exo 2:4, Num 9:10, Deu 20:15...ect... Ther are many more that I could give, but you get the picture.

There is no sense of time in that verse for "afar off".
All those verses are saying that God knows and understands our thoughts, even as He is for away as in heaven.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
God is grwatly intimate with us.


:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, Lo, O Lord, that you don't know!
God does know our thoughts as we think them, not before.

He may know our mind & intent of heart be for we have thought, because our minds & intent of heart bring our thoughts into process.

Before we speak, we are actually thinking how to articulate what to say and how to say it, and God interpretates our thoughts before we able to articulate what we are thinking.

Proverbs 15:26"The LORD detests the thoughts of the wicked, but those of the pure are pleasing to him."
God hates whgat the wicked think.

Isaiah 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
It is evident, that it is properly connected with the subject of pardon as per verse 7; and the sense must be, that the plans, purposes, ways and thoughts of God in regard to forgiveness are as far above those of people as the heavens are higher than the earth.


Sorry if I came across as rude in this post, but I'm just a little frustrated. I doubt I will be able to continue this debate with you as we don't seem to share the common fundamentals.Hey, don't worry about it, I'm used to it.
I'm not very articulate and I can't seem to get what I'm thinking acrossed with only words on a computer.

I do quite well face to face though.
I only ask that you just try to understand and pray.


(God created and knows EVERYTHING)He doesn't creat your thoughts.
How can He know them before you think them if He does not creat them?

He does, by the way, know every thing He did create, is creating, and will create.
When I say create, I mean that what ever HE did, does & will do.

BrckBrln
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:26 PM
He does know our thoughts as we think them.
How could He know sa thought that is non existant before you think of it?

How does God know an action before it is performed? It's called being God. The problem is that you are putting Him on a timeline but God is outside of time, therefore He knows everything. To deny this is a serious offense in my opinion.


I did have perfect foreknowledge, I foreknew that my wife would choose "Olive Garden".
My foreknowledge was perfect because she did choose "Olive Garden".

That is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. You did not have perfect foreknowledge at all. You did not definitively know anything, you could only make an educated guess.

Diolectic
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:41 PM
He does know our thoughts as we think them.
How could He know sa thought that is non existant before you think of it?How does God know an action before it is performed? It's called being God. The problem is that you are putting Him on a timeline but God is outside of time, therefore He knows everything. To deny this is a serious offense in my opinion.God is in a timeline, it's called creation.
He has bound himself within it.

He is not the "I Am in the past", nor is HE the "I Am in the future".
He is the "I AM"..
This means that HE is in the now and always was, and always will be.

It also means that He exists of His own self(as we have our existance of God.)

The problem is that you are putting God in a future that does not exist.
If God is in the future as we speak, then then the future exists now(which don't make sence at all), then time travle is posible.



I did have perfect foreknowledge, I foreknew that my wife would choose "Olive Garden".
My foreknowledge was perfect because she did choose "Olive Garden".That is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. You did not have perfect foreknowledge at all. You did not definitively know anything, you could only make an educated guess.I did know. you can't argue that, because you don't know me.

How is God's foreknowede anything diferent if the future does not exist?
He can not have first hand knowledge.
However, He can know the future by knowing what HE will do then.
furthermore, He is not us, so all HE can have is "educated guesses" of what we will do.
As I know my wife so well, I know what she will do in given cercumsatnces, So God knows us so VERY well...ect...

BrckBrln
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:35 PM
God is in a timeline, it's called creation.
He has bound himself within it.

He is not the "I Am in the past", nor is HE the "I Am in the future".
He is the "I AM"..
This means that HE is in the now and always was, and always will be.

It also means that He exists of His own self(as we have our existance of God.)

The problem is that you are putting God in a future that does not exist.
If God is in the future as we speak, then then the future exists now(which don't make sence at all), then time travle is posible.

There you go limiting God to what He has created. I honestly have not the patience to debate a person who believes as you do, so I will just tell you the fact that God is not bound under Time, which He created.

I don't want to sound mean, but in my opinion, you have some very messed up beliefs. But, of course, you think the same about me too.

Mograce2U
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:54 PM
There you go limiting God to what He has created. I honestly have not the patience to debate a person who believes as you do, so I will just tell you the fact that God is not bound under Time, which He created.

I don't want to sound mean, but in my opinion, you have some very messed up beliefs. But, of course, you think the same about me too.God is not bound under time nor to time, but the earth IS. Which leaves God completely free to change our future and the present course of things to bring His plan to pass. He knows exactly what He will do and the lack of existence of our future or even with our present sin, need not mean it will go the way it seems to us as it ought to at all. Fatalism is not the way God works.

Are we heading for a nuclear disaster? Sure, but God is able to change that course. Not because He knows whether that is what is coming or not, but because it is His choice not ours, how things are going to work out. God's existence outside of time doesn't mean that He reaches back into the past to change it, nor into the future to fix it. Rather it means He is at work directing it all - in the present, according to His plan.

If our sin seems to be leading us in a particular direction, it will be God who decides if He will use it or redirect it. And we see in the scripture that is exactly what He does. Even accelerating sin like He did with Pharoah to bring deliverance for His people.

Nothing we can do will deter Him from bringing the end He has known from the beginning. And history bears this witness too. And so can I because He did it for me!

Addendum:
Now what God HAS bound Himself to, is His revealed word to us.
Therefore we can take that to the bank! Because He gives us hope in our future.

legoman
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:00 AM
God is in a timeline, it's called creation.
He has bound himself within it.

He is not the "I Am in the past", nor is HE the "I Am in the future".
He is the "I AM"..
This means that HE is in the now and always was, and always will be.

It also means that He exists of His own self(as we have our existance of God.)

The problem is that you are putting God in a future that does not exist.
If God is in the future as we speak, then then the future exists now(which don't make sence at all), then time travle is posible.

I did know. you can't argue that, because you don't know me.

How is God's foreknowede anything diferent if the future does not exist?
He can not have first hand knowledge.
However, He can know the future by knowing what HE will do then.
furthermore, He is not us, so all HE can have is "educated guesses" of what we will do.
As I know my wife so well, I know what she will do in given cercumsatnces, So God knows us so VERY well...ect...


Hi Diolectic,

Ok I understand your position a bit better now, not that I agree with it though :)

Regarding the analogy with your wife: you definitely don't have perfect foreknowledge. While you may know your wife very well and know that she will only ever eat at Olive Garden, there are a million and one reasons why she might not even get to Olive Garden in the first place. You make your plans to go to supper, and then she is late from work, gets stuck in traffic, stops to help out a friend - a million and one circumstances that you don't have perfect foreknowledge about. God does have that perfect foreknowledge.

The contradiction I was trying to point out previously was that you believe God is all-knowing, but you don't believe he knows our future thoughts, therefore if he doesn't know something he can't be all-knowing. Anyway forget about it.

Now I see that you believe the future is not yet written - I would agree that would allow for free will. I even used to believe that myself, until I started really studying and thinking about some of these verses.

By the way, God is not only the "I AM" of "now", he is the "I AM" of the beginning and the end:

Revelations 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


This verse indicates to me that God knows the beginning and the end. If God knows the beginning and the end, how can the future not be written yet?



Peace,
Legoman

Diolectic
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:45 AM
Hi Diolectic,

Ok I understand your position a bit better now, not that I agree with it though :)

Regarding the analogy with your wife: you definitely don't have perfect foreknowledge. While you may know your wife very well and know that she will only ever eat at Olive Garden, there are a million and one reasons why she might not even get to Olive Garden in the first place. You make your plans to go to supper, and then she is late from work, gets stuck in traffic, stops to help out a friend - a million and one circumstances that you don't have perfect foreknowledge about. God does have that perfect foreknowledge.It don't matter if I do or not have perfect foreknowledge.
The fact is that God does, and as my analogy goes, is How HE does.

Revelations 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
All this means is that He was at the start & He will be in the end.
It means that he is the beginning and the end of all things; The creator/author and the finisher/completer.
God was at the commencement of all things, and will be at the close; and it is equivalent to saying that he has always existed, and that he will always exist.
There is no implication of knowledge in this verse.

Sam07
Aug 28th 2008, 06:31 AM
Legoman

I have enjoyed reading your responses they are very thought provoking, if I understand, you believe God is the creator of all things and has foreknowledge of all outcomes so he is ultimately responsible for everyoneís actions, is that correct?

If that is so and we only have the will to follow the path God has set out for us and cannot deviate from it as we do not have free will, dose that mean heaven hell good bad love hate salvation suffering fear faith God the devil etc etc etc are completely irrelevant and unimportant factors in life as there is no consequences or penalties to these, just conclusions that God has decided are just.

Is that right?

Thanks

Sam

Blademan
Aug 28th 2008, 03:12 PM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure?

That depends on the nature of this question, given that you did not prequalify its meaning or intent.

God did indeed create Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they were going to fall. The fact that He went ahead with the creation as we know it, their fall serves a much higher purpose than the fact that they fell into sin. It was still Adam's choice as to whether he ate the fruit, or rejected it, for which he is still responsible.

Additionally, the Lord also took full responsibility for what He knew was going to happen when He gave Himself, a willing sacrifice, to die on the Cross so that what He knew was going to fall could be redeemed.


He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives.

He never "sat back." He has been actively engaged in the destiny of mankind throughout, and to the very end.


He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin.

We also can rest in the assurance that the goal He has in mind is indeed of far greater worth than what has transpired throughout time. All the suffering cannot possibly equal the value of the ultimate goal itself. If the suffering were not worth what is to come, then He would never have set this all in motion as we see it now.


Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

That question in itself is diversionary from the actual reality. God created the capacity for sin, but not sin itself. Sin is not a thing, such as creation. Sin is a state that He allowed to come into existence that His ultimate Goal may be achieved. Paul stated the prerequisite to that goal quite emphatically, which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." I will not even venture to surmise the substance of that goal since, as it is written, it has not even entered into the imaginations of men the things that He has prepared for us.

9Marksfan
Aug 28th 2008, 03:37 PM
That depends on the nature of this question, given that you did not prequalify its meaning or intent.

God did indeed create Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they were going to fall. The fact that He went ahead with the creation as we know it, their fall serves a much higher purpose than the fact that they fell into sin. It was still Adam's choice as to whether he ate the fruit, or rejected it, for which he is still responsible.

Additionally, the Lord also took full responsibility for what He knew was going to happen when He gave Himself, a willing sacrifice, to die on the Cross so that what He knew was going to fall could be redeemed.



He never "sat back." He has been actively engaged in the destiny of mankind throughout, and to the very end.



We also can rest in the assurance that the goal He has in mind is indeed of far greater worth than what has transpired throughout time. All the suffering cannot possibly equal the value of the ultimate goal itself. If the suffering were not worth what is to come, then He would never have set this all in motion as we see it now.



That question in itself is diversionary from the actual reality. God created the capacity for sin, but not sin itself. Sin is not a thing, such as creation. Sin is a state that He allowed to come into existence that His ultimate Goal may be achieved. Paul stated the prerequisite to that goal quite emphatically, which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." I will not even venture to surmise the substance of that goal since, as it is written, it has not even entered into the imaginations of men the things that He has prepared for us.

Excellent response - well said!

legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 03:49 PM
Excellent response - well said!

Yes quite a good response Blademan.

legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 06:18 PM
Legoman

I have enjoyed reading your responses they are very thought provoking, if I understand, you believe God is the creator of all things and has foreknowledge of all outcomes so he is ultimately responsible for everyoneís actions, is that correct?


Hi, glad you enjoyed my posts. Yes, God is the creator of all things, and has complete foreknowledge. Since he created the creation, he would be responsible for it. That doesn't mean we aren't accountable for our actions, because it is still we that do them. But in the end God will be just and he will be responsible for everything.


If that is so and we only have the will to follow the path God has set out for us and cannot deviate from it as we do not have free will, dose that mean heaven hell good bad love hate salvation suffering fear faith God the devil etc etc etc are completely irrelevant and unimportant factors in life as there is no consequences or penalties to these, just conclusions that God has decided are just.

Is that right?

Thanks

Sam


You are jumping too quickly to the (wrong) end conclusion I think. Life is a journey, not a destination right? You can't ignore all the stuff in the middle - thats how we get to the end. Why do you think God set the Universe up like this? Why didn't he just create us all as the perfect beings we were meant to be in heaven to begin with?

Here is something that may be profound (or maybe not if you've already thought of this). What if God is still "creating" us? What if he is molding us, refining us, building our characters, so eventually we will be those perfect beings in God's image (a.k.a. God's children)? I think when all is said and done, these lives we lead will be a mere blink in God's timeline. Our life is simply part of the process to refine us into something better. And whatever is in store for us will be so much more glorious than this crazy life we lead now.

So to answer your question, yes all that stuff still matters. Jesus will save us from our sins. There will be judgement, consequences, penalties, and we will be accountable for what we do.

Blademan
Aug 28th 2008, 08:23 PM
It seems that one of the biggest problems cultists and the unbelieving world has with the God described within scripture is His sovereignty. Cultists and athiests alike prefer a god who is subject to their ideas about morality and justice, not one who is sovereign and therefore beyond the subjectivity of human intuition and control.

Interestingly, you put a cockroach next to a flame, and he instinctively runs the other direction. No scientist on the face of this earth can force that cockroach to naturally act in a way that is contradictory to its own instincts.

The god cultists and athiests prefer is a god that is lower than a cockroach by way of that god's instincts and nature being subject to human invention.

legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 09:18 PM
Something I've noticed about the world and its hatred of God is His sovereignty. Cultists and athiests alike prefer a god who is subject to their ideas about morality and justice, not one who is sovereign and therefore beyond the subjectivity of human intuition and control.

Interestingly, you put a cockroach next to a flame, and he instinctively runs the other direction. No scientist on the face of this earth can force that cockroach to naturally act in a way that is contradictory to its own instincts.

The god cultists and athiests prefer is a god that is lower than a cockroach by way of that god's instincts and nature being subject to human invention.

Could you expand on this a bit? I think I get what your saying, but its not entirely clear.

Thanks,
Legoman

Blademan
Aug 29th 2008, 03:09 AM
There. My blood sugar was low, so my thinking was a bit fuzzy. I've corrected the original post. Is it more clear now?

To elaborate: We've all heard atheistic philosophers whine about the alleged problem of a loving God allowing all the suffering in the world, and that if God were truly as loving as we believe Him to be, then He would never allow such suffering, etc.

This clearly is a cry for a god whose very nature is subject to the ethical standards of mere men. Thus, my comment on this fundamental flaw in their reasoning. When the created thinks a divine entity could possibly be subject to their ethical standards and morals, and still remain deity, well, this shines a revealing light upon the glaring inconsistencies and futility of their thinking. How can a god create superior gods to whom the original is subject? That's sophism at its worst!

legoman
Aug 29th 2008, 04:39 PM
Actually it was the cockroach thing I wasn't quite getting.

But I think you are saying that alot of people try to put God into their own preconceived box, when in reality he is so much bigger than that?

I get what you mean about "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?". The question comes up, and many people never seem to get it. They don't want God to be the one that let's bad stuff happen. "Gasp! How could God allow (let alone be the root cause) of all the bad stuff in the world?" They don't want to make God responsible. They assume God couldn't allow all that bad stuff. But what they miss is God does it for our benefit. The only way you can build character is by going through the fire.

What's your stance on the free-will issue Blademan? Is it the same as mine? Essentially free-will cannot exist if God is all-knowing with complete foreknowledge. If free will does exist, God basically made a bunch of other God's that he cannot control.

Sam07
Aug 29th 2008, 11:19 PM
Legoman

Hi thanks for the response hmmmÖ.im tying to follow your reasoning if man doesnít have free but has to follow the inevitable path setout by God how can he be held responsible for his actions.

He is just a robot following the program God created for him to perform.

A person suffering or in misery in 3rd world countries wouldnít be enjoying the journey they would be crying out for help.

As for jumping to the wrong conclusion these are the facts or end results in any ones life, the journey or end conclusion is irrelevant since man has no choice in the outcome.

As for God still creating or perfecting us, it is clear we are made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ and not of our selves etc etc, however all this would be irrelevant too because man has no choice to choose, but only to fulfill the destiny of his existence.

There logic doesnít seem to make sense am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks

Sam

Sam07
Aug 29th 2008, 11:21 PM
Correction

This logic doesnít seem to make sense am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks

Sam

Invincibleep
Aug 30th 2008, 01:53 AM
Did God set Adam and Eve up for failure? He obviously gave them the ability to sin along with the gift of freewill -- and I do believe it to be a gift. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden of Eden in order to tempt His children. He put all of the pieces in place, sat back and watched it all happen, then allowed man's earthly destiny to be clouded with the burden of sin, a burden each of us faces every day of our lives. He knows everything -- past, present and future. He knew without a doubt that Adam and Eve would fail, thus guaranteeing that all future humans would live in a world dominated by sin. Can we then go so far as to say that God created sin?

God Bless.
================================================

The wisdom of God taught me the following with regard to your question, 'did God create sin?' Sin is simply disobeying God. As so, the opposite affect of obeying God is 'disobedience' and the disobedience is 'sin' that comes forth. So no, God didn't create sin rather. God so loved His creation humanity that He would put the precious and powerful gift of freewill in his hands, tell him the consequences of disobedience i.e. corruption i.e. sin.

It can be likened to handing one a precious crystal vase and telling them to be careful lest it break and it will never be the same. So Adam and his wife were not careful with the precious gift of obedience and more or less broke the natural, blessed order. Hence, sin entered.

Oh we all know of this truth if we just think about it. As youngsters, teenagers, our parents put their trust in us to be obedient and not get into the mischief young people can get in to. Yet, many of us have done just the opposite of what our parent's entrusted us to do and sure enough trouble abounded.

Were our parent's cruel for entrusting us to go forth on our own and obey their instructions? Whatever bad that erupted because of our disobedience is that which our freewill created not our parents. In like manner is it with our Heavenly Father.

Now, in this example with regard to our parents, for many of us it wasn't major. Meaning, maybe it was just breaking curfew but even in that respect the youth who had the precious gift of trust handed to him/her has violated it and caused a chain reaction i.e. the dissapointment and anger of parents for breaking curfew and the resulting punishment being grounded. That 'disobedient' act will never go away as 'trust' that precious gift handed freely to the child has been violated.

In some worse cases with youth, their disobedience could wrought changes that ever affect the family. Perhaps, jail or worse, death. Here again, the natural consequences that would affect future generations. For instance, if a young person died for disobeying their parents via being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they leave behind brothers and sisters. Their death would affect the future nieces and nephews that would be born to the remaining brothers and sisters. They would only inquire about the photo of the dearly departed. They would never know the love of that young person.

In other words, 'sin' has a natural boomerrang affect that is passed down from generation to generation. This is how it was with Adam and his wife. Sin entered the world and all who would be born into the world will have to deal with it.

Here's another example that might bring a better understanding of sin. What if we are born to parents who commit a criminal act and are caught and imprisoned. Their disobedient actions affect the children. The children may become homeless, or may be teased and taunted because of the 'disobedient', 'sinful' act of the parents. Is that God's fault that they, like Adam and his wife, disobeyed the laws of righteousness and birth sin with its' consequences? Again, No. They had a precious gift of freewill to obedience, but instead were disobedient and brought forth sin and destruction that affected their own family, their victims and society at large.


Now, maybe what you are really trying to say is, couldn't God just erase it all and start back over? Ofcourse He could, and when things go wrong we sometimes wish He would.

However, God speaks of 'appointed times and seasons' of understanding with regard to creation, humanity, the fall and ressurection. Since God is the Creator, the Great Artist and Designer He knows best.

Bottom line, it's the old, 'can the thing made say to the one who made him, why did you make me this way?' The Creator being Supreme knows what He is doing and more importantly, 'WHY' it must needs be done in the fashion in which the Creation and fall wrought sin and its' consequences to us all. We must take comfort in that and granted. sometimes when we see the suffering and madness abounding in the world it's a hard pill to swallow but swallow it we must.

legoman
Aug 31st 2008, 03:49 AM
Legoman

Hi thanks for the response hmmmÖ.im tying to follow your reasoning if man doesnít have free but has to follow the inevitable path setout by God how can he be held responsible for his actions.

He is just a robot following the program God created for him to perform.

A person suffering or in misery in 3rd world countries wouldnít be enjoying the journey they would be crying out for help.

As for jumping to the wrong conclusion these are the facts or end results in any ones life, the journey or end conclusion is irrelevant since man has no choice in the outcome.

As for God still creating or perfecting us, it is clear we are made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ and not of our selves etc etc, however all this would be irrelevant too because man has no choice to choose, but only to fulfill the destiny of his existence.

There logic doesnít seem to make sense am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks

Sam

If you search through my other posts, I think I've talked about this before.

God is responsible for his creation. We are accountable for our actions. We will be judged for that, because we are the one who sin. God knows what we will do, he has setup everything that way. This includes him knowing how and when we will sin. This is in the scriptures.

The old robot argument always comes up when debating free will. We are considerably more advanced than a robot wouldn't you say? We have complex reasoning, we are sentient, self-aware, able to procreate, feel emotions, love, gain experience, learn, develop character...

This is what it comes down to. God is giving us an experience so we will learn and develop our characters into something good.

You said we are made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ. That is true. But are we perfect right now? I know for sure that I am not. Are you perfect? I am still learning. I have good days and bad days. The bad times test my character, which causes me to learn. Who is providing this experience? God. We are being tested as gold and silver in the fire. The impurities of straw and wood are being burned away with each trial.

Its a process which will lead to an eventual outcome. But we can't skip the process just to get to the end, otherwise we wouldn't be deserving of the end, because we won't be good yet.

Cheers,
Legoman

Sam07
Sep 1st 2008, 03:25 PM
Sam
Hi Legman,

Thanks for replying, this logic still doesnít make sense to me

I have read your previous posts on this topic and you make a few points clear.

1. God created sin because he is the creator of all things and knows the outcome.
2.Man has no free will.
3.God is the potter.
4.Man is the clay
5.The clay has been shaped for the purpose of the potter

Your quote

God is responsible for his creation. We are accountable for our actions. We will be judged for that, because we are the one who sin. God knows what we will do, he has setup everything that way. This includes him knowing how and when we will sin. This is in the scriptures.

Based on your own omissions

Youíve made it clear God is the potter and we are the clay, so why is the clay being held accountable for carrying out the potters plans since the clay has no power over the potter?

How can a person be held responsible since they donít have free will?

God created us for his own purposes, we donít have free will therefore we have to fulfill the destiny God has created for us.

This logic cancels out any responsibly or accountably.

Your quote

The old robot argument always comes up when debating free will. We are considerably more advanced than a robot wouldn't you say? We have complex reasoning, we are sentient, self-aware, able to procreate, feel emotions, love, gain experience, learn, develop character...

What difference does it make being more advanced and possessing all these abilities when we donít have free will to choose our own program but have to follow the program God programmed us to perform?(just like a prehistoric robot lol)

That doesnít make sense.

Your quote

This is what it comes down to. God is giving us an experience so we will learn and develop our characters into something good.

What difference will it make if we dont get a choice in the matter; we are destined to follow the potters programme according to this logic.

Your quote

You said we are made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ. That is true. But are we perfect right now? I know for sure that I am not. Are you perfect? I am still learning. I have good days and bad days. The bad times test my character, which causes me to learn. Who is providing this experience? God. We are being tested as gold and silver in the fire. The impurities of straw and wood are being burned away with each trial.

What difference will it make if we are perfect or not, according to this logic we donít get a choice in choosing as it has already been decided for us, this is a pointless exercise remember you and I as the rest of the universe are only following the potters programme.

There is no choice in this logic.

Your quote

Its a process which will lead to an eventual outcome. But we can't skip the process just to get to the end, otherwise we wouldn't be deserving of the end, because we won't be good yet.

Good and bad canít exist in this logic because it doesnít allow for choice only the result of the potters program.

Hmmmmm I find this logic hard to understand but thanks for sharing your point of view.

Anyway take care brother

Peace

Sam

Blademan
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:56 AM
It's interesting that some view sin as a "thing" that God could, or would, create. He created those who chose to perpetrate that which He defined as sin, but sin itself? Oh well...

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:24 AM
Sam
Hi Legman,

Thanks for replying, this logic still doesnít make sense to me

I have read your previous posts on this topic and you make a few points clear.

1. God created sin because he is the creator of all things and knows the outcome.
2.Man has no free will.
3.God is the potter.
4.Man is the clay
5.The clay has been shaped for the purpose of the potter

Your quote

God is responsible for his creation. We are accountable for our actions. We will be judged for that, because we are the one who sin. God knows what we will do, he has setup everything that way. This includes him knowing how and when we will sin. This is in the scriptures.

Based on your own omissions

Youíve made it clear God is the potter and we are the clay, so why is the clay being held accountable for carrying out the potters plans since the clay has no power over the potter?

How can a person be held responsible since they donít have free will?

God created us for his own purposes, we donít have free will therefore we have to fulfill the destiny God has created for us.

This logic cancels out any responsibly or accountably.

Your quote

The old robot argument always comes up when debating free will. We are considerably more advanced than a robot wouldn't you say? We have complex reasoning, we are sentient, self-aware, able to procreate, feel emotions, love, gain experience, learn, develop character...

What difference does it make being more advanced and possessing all these abilities when we donít have free will to choose our own program but have to follow the program God programmed us to perform?(just like a prehistoric robot lol)

That doesnít make sense.

Your quote

This is what it comes down to. God is giving us an experience so we will learn and develop our characters into something good.

What difference will it make if we dont get a choice in the matter; we are destined to follow the potters programme according to this logic.

Your quote

You said we are made perfect through the sacrifice of Christ. That is true. But are we perfect right now? I know for sure that I am not. Are you perfect? I am still learning. I have good days and bad days. The bad times test my character, which causes me to learn. Who is providing this experience? God. We are being tested as gold and silver in the fire. The impurities of straw and wood are being burned away with each trial.

What difference will it make if we are perfect or not, according to this logic we donít get a choice in choosing as it has already been decided for us, this is a pointless exercise remember you and I as the rest of the universe are only following the potters programme.

There is no choice in this logic.

Your quote

Its a process which will lead to an eventual outcome. But we can't skip the process just to get to the end, otherwise we wouldn't be deserving of the end, because we won't be good yet.

Good and bad canít exist in this logic because it doesnít allow for choice only the result of the potters program.

Hmmmmm I find this logic hard to understand but thanks for sharing your point of view.

Anyway take care brother

Peace

Sam





Hi Sam,

Did God create sin? Personally, I am not sure now whether he created the concept of good and bad (sin), or if it is intrinsic/knowledge of the universe/heavens/God himself. Sorry if I confused you, but that wasn't my main point.

What I am quite certain of is God created the creatures of this world with the ability to sin, therefore he is technically responsible for the sin in this world. He is responsible for all of creation, because he created it. This does not mean God is a sinner though. It will all work out in the end.

If God is all-powerful, why do bad things happen? Does God just "allow" them? If God "allows" things to happen, but had the ability to stop it, this is the same as God causing it to happen himself!

Sorry it doesn't make sense to you. I struggle with it still. But that is what the bible says. Do you believe everything in the bible? In my opinion, it is very clear on this. Read Romans 9. Here is a subset:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209&version=31#fen-NIV-28156f)] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209&version=31#fen-NIV-28158g)] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209&version=31#fen-NIV-28161h)] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathóprepared for destruction?

Do you understand what these verses are saying? God is in full control. He forms people however he sees fit. I'm not making this stuff up - its written in the bible. Here is more scripture:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Our disobedience is of God! Still believe we have free will?



John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


We can't even choose Christ unless the father draws us to him! We have no control over our very salvation!



Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.



Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

God does as he pleases, without regard for the people! Still not convinced?

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

We have been predestined according to his plan! Notice he works out everything. EVERYTHING. We cannot have free will if this is true.

I don't have time to look up all the verses, but God knows when we were born, when we will die, and the number of hairs on our head every second of our life. If we had free will, we could break God's sovereinty with a pair of scissors and a few snips of our hair.

How do you think all of the prophecy in the bible comes true? God forsaw it? He forsaw it because he planned it!

If you choose to interpret this as everything is pointless, because we are just following a pre-programmed plan, then you're missing the point. You realize this "pre-programmed plan" as you put it, is God's wonderful plan of the ages.

By the way we still make choices. But the outcomes are known by God, so the choices are not free.

Also, even though our choices are pre-ordained, we are not robots. We are sentient beings. We experience every consequence of every choice we make, whether they are good or bad. We are aware of those experiences & consequences, but a robot is not aware of anything. We experience what God intended us to experience, so we will learn. What does God want us to learn? He wants us to learn Goodness and become Good:

Isaiah 26:119 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.

That is the point of it all.

Do you deny the scriptures and still believe you have free will? Please, if you can, show me a scripture that shows free will, and then show that it doesn't contradict all of the above scriptures I quoted.

Sam07
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:42 AM
Hi Legoman,

I can relate to and understand what you are saying in most of this post, and I enjoy reading your posts as they provide insightful food for thought.

I suppose I believe God created man with a plan for each individual, but man also gets to decide which path he wants to follow.

This would make more sense to me as we would reap what we have sown and God would be blameless.

The unconditional grace of the father would always be available to us while we had the opportunity to receive eternal life or to develop and grow in our personal relationships.

To love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and to love your neighbor as your self would transform us into fruitful effective members in the body of Christ.

Thank you for the fellowship

Peace

Sam

nleeh
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:21 PM
By the way we still make choices. But the outcomes are known by God, so the choices are not free.

Also, even though our choices are pre-ordained, we are not robots. We are sentient beings. We experience every consequence of every choice we make, whether they are good or bad. We are aware of those experiences & consequences, but a robot is not aware of anything. We experience what God intended us to experience, so we will learn. What does God want us to learn? He wants us to learn Goodness and become Good:

Isaiah 26:119 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.


I've been trying to follow this line of thought but still confused. When you say we still make choices, then are you saying we 'think' we are the maker of every thought and action made, be it to brush our teeth or go to church or rob a bank but we are not the maker of the thought or the action because both are already predestined for us to make by God. But we are aware of the consequences they bring and in that knowing, God wants us to learn from the experience and the consequence. Please make this more understandable if this is not what you are saying. Can you give an example?

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:05 PM
Hi Sam,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I am glad my posts are providing food for your thought. It is a deep area, and takes much study.

Truth be told, a year ago I would have been saying the same things you are. How could it make sense if we don't have free will, etc.

But recently I have become much more interested in studying the scriptures and what they mean. If you objectively look at what the scriptures says it is hard to believe we can have free will.

I still struggle with this. It is hard to unlearn 30+ years (I'm turning 36 this month) of people saying we have free will. Everyone seems to think this. The church. Christians. Athiests. Everyone says we have free will, but no one seems to think about the implications. For the athiest it may make sense, because they don't believe in God, let alone an all-powerful all-knowing God. But for Christians, we need to really think about what it means. We need to study the scriptures. We need to give up the traditions of men.

Even now I wonder, have I got this right? Am I posting the right ideas on this forum? Am I leading people astray? I pray about this. And I read the bible. Based on my reading of the bible, I don't think it can be any other way. And what is more disturbing is the fact that the church is possibly leading people astray (either knowingly or unknowingly) by stating we have free will. I believe free will is an idol of the heart that we must repent of.

I think a lot of Christians just don't think about it because we have been indoctrinated to believe we have free will. But consider this. Most Christians believe in prayer. Most Christians believe God answer's prayer (not always how we would expect though). Most Christians believe God brings us blessings. And most (some?) Christians believe God brings us trials so we can learn. Well if you believe all that, how can you believe in free will? God is running the show.

In a way, the idea of free will is blashpemy against God. It teaches us we are "mini" Gods. If someone is successful; they have a great job, great family, high social status, great house/car, etc; what do they think? They think "Man I am great! I made great decisions in my life with my own free will and because of that I have great success." The problem is, they just claimed the credit for God's blessings. God could have easily made this man a street bum who lives in a cardboard box, if he wanted to. We won't know true humility until we realize this fact.

Cheers,
Legoman

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:47 PM
I've been trying to follow this line of thought but still confused. When you say we still make choices, then are you saying we 'think' we are the maker of every thought and action made, be it to brush our teeth or go to church or rob a bank but we are not the maker of the thought or the action because both are already predestined for us to make by God. But we are aware of the consequences they bring and in that knowing, God wants us to learn from the experience and the consequence. Please make this more understandable if this is not what you are saying. Can you give an example?

Making a choice does not imply free will. The robot argument will illustrate this. A robot is just a computer with some fancy mechanisms attached to it. The computer makes choices. But it doesn't have free will. No one claims a computer has free will. The computer takes input, and then makes a decision based on that input. It can do this very quickly, giving the appearance that it is "smart". But in reality it is just a bunch of bits, 0's and 1's, tiny transistors, switching on and off in different combinations and patterns. That's all a computer is.

Now, we do the same thing. We take input, and make a decision. That's it! We make choices, but they are not free - they are based on the "input" around us, what we have learned, what our environment is. In that way, we are the same as a computer.

But in another way we are completely different from a computer. We are superior to the computer. The computer doesn't know its a computer. We know we are human. We are self-aware, the computer (or robot) is not.

Now to your specific question. When we make a choice, it is not of our free will. It is anything but. We consciously or subconsciously take into account hundreds (maybe thousands) of variables, and use that information to come to a decision. If it was a free choice, we could arbitrarily decide to do something, without any "input". In reality this never happens.

Lets look at your examples, they are good ones.

Why did you brush your teeth in the morning? Well you were probably taught its good hygene to brush your teeth in the morning. Makes your teeth nice and clean and your breath minty fresh. So you didn't decide to brush your teeth because of free will. You decided to brush your teeth because you were taught to and because of societal pressures about having clean teeth.

But you might say "WAIT I didn't brush my teeth this morning, surely that must have been my free will! :)" Let's look at it:

Why did you not brush your teeth this morning? Well maybe you were late for work, didn't have time, forgot, or were just trying to prove a point that you have free will. In each of these cases, there is a cause for why you didn't choose to brush your teeth. It slipped your mind, you decided it was better to be on time for work, or your pride foollishly thinks you have free will :)

This kind of reasoning is applicable for every decision we make. All decisions are caused by something else. None of them are "free".

Why did you not rob a bank this morning? Because you know stealing is wrong. Why does a bank robber steal? Perhaps he was never taught it was wrong (unlikely). Perhaps he felt he was above the law. Perhaps he couldn't see any other way to get some needed money. Perhaps he thought he wouldn't get caught. etc. In any case, the decision was caused.

If we trace the causes of each decision back, it comes back to our environment and what we were taught as a kid, and eventually where we were born and who our parents were. Did we have any choice about when/where we were born and who our parents are? No. The same can be said for our parents. And their parents. And their parents... and eventually we get all the way back to Adam & Eve. And who created Adam & Eve? God of course. It all traces back to God. He is the ultimate cause of everything. God's will is ultimate. Man's will is subjected to God's will. We make the choices we do because of the "input" around us - that "input" includes our environment, our previous experiences, and other people. That "input" was all caused, designed, and planned by God.

Make sense?

Legoman

divaD
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:09 PM
Why does a bank robber steal? Perhaps he
was never taught it was wrong (unlikely). Perhaps he felt he was above the law. Perhaps he couldn't see any other way to get
some needed money. Perhaps he thought he wouldn't get caught. etc.


And what have you just proven here? Any of the above requires free-will. Surely this wouldn't be God's will for anyone. The Bible clearly teaches that there are 2 spiritual fathers. One of them is God, the Father. The other one is the devil himself. So in your above example, the bank robber would be doing the will of his/her father, the devil. This proves that man has free-will. Man can choose to do the will of God, or man can choose to do the will of the devil. In the garden, man chose to do the will of the devil. This is what caused them to fall, because they went against the will of God. This is why you fail to see that man has free-will. Because you seem to believe that man's will is entirely dependent on God's will, thus you are forgetting that satan also has a will, and that his will is contrary to God's will.





Did we have any choice about when/where we were born and
who our parents are?


No, but our parents did, lol. Well all except for Adam and Eve of course.

Mograce2U
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:30 PM
legoman, #136 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1773000&postcount=136)
In your scenario the input is the same as the decision. IOW the input is the determining factor not the judgment one must make regarding that input. Yet that is what choice is about. It is not that we can do anything we can conceive of, but that we can make a judgment based on the information we have. Within the confines of the world we live in, we are given this ability by the One who created us. Not as robots as you said, but as sentient beings who must make a choice. That is the freedom which God extends to us that makes us creatures after His image. In this way God is able to communicate with us and we can respond in kind.

But God is not the only spiritual being able to communicate ideas to us. And this is where our choice for God and against the devil makes all the difference. Our natural bent is to sin and this we have in common with the devil so that his voice is more readily acceptable to us, while we justify ourselves and argue with the word of God. It ought to be the other way around! Yet God permits us this freedom and trust and faith in God is what is developed in us, when we listen to His voice. And that is then the basis for His fellowship with us as it was with Adam in the garden. It is how we are being trained to hear Him so we can walk in His ways. None of which requires that He coerce us into obedience, though consequences may help turn us back when we stray!

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:32 PM
This thread should probably merge with the "What made Satan Sin" thread at some point :)


And what have you just proven here? Any of the above requires free-will. Surely this wouldn't be God's will for anyone. The Bible clearly teaches that there are 2 spiritual fathers. One of them is God, the Father. The other one is the devil himself. So in your above example, the bank robber would be doing the will of his/her father, the devil. This proves that man has free-will. Man can choose to do the will of God, or man can choose to do the will of the devil. In the garden, man chose to do the will of the devil. This is what caused them to fall, because they went against the will of God. This is why you fail to see that man has free-will. Because you seem to believe that man's will is entirely dependent on God's will, thus you are forgetting that satan also has a will, and that his will is contrary to God's will.


This doesn't prove man has free-will, Diva. As I have said before, making a choice does not mean you have free will. Just because a robber chooses to follow the ways of satan, was that a "free will" choice? No! He was tempted, he fell to his own lusts, he fell to his own greed. Same thing happened to Eve.

Why would God make a bank robber? God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor.

Did you not read anything I said in the other thread about what made Satan sin? I know I replied to you several times there as well. God designed Satan to sin. As part of God's original plan, God needed an adversary to introduce sin into the world. God created Satan for that purpose. Satan is not an arch-rival or equal to God. God is the almighty - Satan is nothing compared to God. God created Satan! This is how God creates evil in the world, he uses Satan! God could stop Satan in an instant if he wanted to, but why would he? He created him for that purpose.

Diva, do you believe the scriptures I have presented in this and other threads that show we don't have free will?

Please comment on the many verses I posted in my last reply to Sam (a few posts up). I would really appreciate it if you could do this, because this is what my argument is based on.




Did we have any choice about when/where we were born and
who our parents are?
No, but our parents did, lol. Well all except for Adam and Eve of course.LOL I agree with you there ;)

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:55 PM
legoman, #136 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1773000&postcount=136)
In your scenario the input is the same as the decision. IOW the input is the determining factor not the judgment one must make regarding that input. Yet that is what choice is about. It is not that we can do anything we can conceive of, but that we can make a judgment based on the information we have. Within the confines of the world we live in, we are given this ability by the One who created us. Not as robots as you said, but as sentient beings who must make a choice. That is the freedom which God extends to us that makes us creatures after His image. In this way God is able to communicate with us and we can respond in kind.

But God is not the only spiritual being able to communicate ideas to us. And this is where our choice for God and against the devil makes all the difference. Our natural bent is to sin and this we have in common with the devil so that his voice is more readily acceptable to us, while we justify ourselves and argue with the word of God. It ought to be the other way around! Yet God permits us this freedom and trust and faith in God is what is developed in us, when we listen to His voice. And that is then the basis for His fellowship with us as it was with Adam in the garden. It is how we are being trained to hear Him so we can walk in His ways. None of which requires that He coerce us into obedience, though consequences may help turn us back when we stray!

Hi,

Not sure why you say "the input is the same as the decision"? What do you mean?

By the way, God doesn't need to "coerce" us into anything. We do it voluntarily. We just look at the "input" ie. surrounding factors, circumstances, our experience, what we have learned, what the current situation is, and then make the best decision. God knows what that decision will be. The decision is either good or bad (sin), and then we experience the consequences, which will affect our future decisions. No freedom in there at all. We are just evaluating the current variables and calculating the decision. And we get to experience it all.

For the rest of this I refer you to my previous posts to Diva and Sam.

Specifically, please comment on the verses I posted in post #132 to Sam.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1772578&postcount=132

nleeh
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:41 PM
Making a choice does not imply free will. The robot argument will illustrate this. A robot is just a computer with some fancy mechanisms attached to it. The computer makes choices. But it doesn't have free will. No one claims a computer has free will. The computer takes input, and then makes a decision based on that input. It can do this very quickly, giving the appearance that it is "smart". But in reality it is just a bunch of bits, 0's and 1's, tiny transistors, switching on and off in different combinations and patterns. That's all a computer is.

Now, we do the same thing. We take input, and make a decision. That's it! We make choices, but they are not free - they are based on the "input" around us, what we have learned, what our environment is. In that way, we are the same as a computer.

But in another way we are completely different from a computer. We are superior to the computer. The computer doesn't know its a computer. We know we are human. We are self-aware, the computer (or robot) is not.

Now to your specific question. When we make a choice, it is not of our free will. It is anything but. We consciously or subconsciously take into account hundreds (maybe thousands) of variables, and use that information to come to a decision. If it was a free choice, we could arbitrarily decide to do something, without any "input". In reality this never happens.

Lets look at your examples, they are good ones.

Why did you brush your teeth in the morning? Well you were probably taught its good hygene to brush your teeth in the morning. Makes your teeth nice and clean and your breath minty fresh. So you didn't decide to brush your teeth because of free will. You decided to brush your teeth because you were taught to and because of societal pressures about having clean teeth.

But you might say "WAIT I didn't brush my teeth this morning, surely that must have been my free will! :)" Let's look at it:

Why did you not brush your teeth this morning? Well maybe you were late for work, didn't have time, forgot, or were just trying to prove a point that you have free will. In each of these cases, there is a cause for why you didn't choose to brush your teeth. It slipped your mind, you decided it was better to be on time for work, or your pride foollishly thinks you have free will :)

This kind of reasoning is applicable for every decision we make. All decisions are caused by something else. None of them are "free".

Why did you not rob a bank this morning? Because you know stealing is wrong. Why does a bank robber steal? Perhaps he was never taught it was wrong (unlikely). Perhaps he felt he was above the law. Perhaps he couldn't see any other way to get some needed money. Perhaps he thought he wouldn't get caught. etc. In any case, the decision was caused.

If we trace the causes of each decision back, it comes back to our environment and what we were taught as a kid, and eventually where we were born and who our parents were. Did we have any choice about when/where we were born and who our parents are? No. The same can be said for our parents. And their parents. And their parents... and eventually we get all the way back to Adam & Eve. And who created Adam & Eve? God of course. It all traces back to God. He is the ultimate cause of everything. God's will is ultimate. Man's will is subjected to God's will. We make the choices we do because of the "input" around us - that "input" includes our environment, our previous experiences, and other people. That "input" was all caused, designed, and planned by God.

Make sense?

Legoman

Maybe, let's see if I understand what you are meaning. God created everything, including Satan and God also knows how everything will end, including our lives and that of Satan. This is His plan. God knowing before hand could be likened to His knowing the end of a movie before it is fully played out. So it is with the outcome of all things.

We do not have free will because everything we know, everything we learn, is based on information or experience from others who have come before us, the Bible or other literature or the deception of Satan and anything else in-between. This is how we base our lives, or that is how we see it unfolding. In that respect, we are not free. We cannot nilly willy create some 'other kind' of world or outcome than which God intended. Yet at the same time we make choices on which things we will use, believe or want to experience but no matter what, the end result will fall in line with God's ultimate plan for humanity, Satan and all angels, all that He has created.

I'm adding another thought...for some it may be un-settling that God knows the final outcome of each life because all who are presently here on this earth are in the midst of their life and because we want all to be saved but we know that is not going to happen.

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:57 PM
Maybe, let's see if I understand what you are meaning. God created everything, including Satan and God also knows how everything will end, including our lives and that of Satan. This is His plan. God knowing before hand could be likened to His knowing the end of a movie before it is fully played out. So it is with the outcome of all things.

We do not have free will because everything we know, everything we learn, is based on information or experience from others who have come before us, the Bible or other literature or the deception of Satan and anything else in-between. This is how we base our lives, or that is how we see it unfolding. In that respect, we are not free. We cannot nilly willy create some 'other kind' of world or outcome than which God intended. Yet at the same time we make choices on which things we will use, believe or want to experience but no matter what, the end result will fall in line with God's ultimate plan for humanity, Satan and all angels, all that He has created.

nleeh






Yeah I think thats pretty much it. You could liken it to one giant movie/script. God wrote, produced, directed and even stars in this movie. We all play our roles as well.

God can fast-forward to the end to see how the movie plays out if he wants, but he doesn't really have to because he wrote, produced, and directed the movie. He knows how it turns out.

We make our choices, but its like the choices that characters make in a movie. No matter how many times you watch the movie, the characters still make the same choices. So it is with us (from God's perspective). Our choices are cast in stone, we are just following the script of God's plan. We don't have free will anymore than the characters in a movie have free will.

Notice I said God even stars in this movie. He plays the role he has written for himself. Of course he appears in the form of Jesus, and his resurrection, but in other ways as well. God answers prayers. God appears to some and speaks to them (Adam in the Garden, Moses, etc).

Its a process. We will learn good and evil. We will learn righteousness. We will gain experience. We will be perfected.

This is an anology, so it may not be perfect, but this is what I get from the scriptures.

Do you agree?

Cheers,
Legoman

parsonsmom
Sep 2nd 2008, 09:04 PM
[quote=Diolectic;1749463]

Prov 21:4a haughty look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

[quote]


thanks for taking the time to give scripture :)

I have heard this before in Sermons but just looking at proverbs 21:4 i noticed plowing

What is plowing of the wicked???.. Is it justifying them as that too is a sin or much stronger, it's an abomonation

Proverbs 17:5. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

never heard plowing before :confused
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[plowing]
proverbs 21:

3To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. 4An high look, and a proud heart, and the [plowing] of the wicked, is sin.
************************************************** ******
Hebrew word [chata], sin offering, one rendering is, "A lofty look and A
proud heart whicch is the tillage [plowing] of the lawless, is more accept
to them than A sin offering."

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice. [1Sam. 15:52, prov. 15:8, Isa.1:11 Hos. 6:6. Mic.6:,7]
Haughtiness of eyes and a proud heart, even the tillage of the wicked or
the lamp of joy to them whatever it may be are sin in the eyes of God.

I hope this helps. A word out of kilter with the subjects some times hinders our understanding. Such as when Jesus said [SUFFER] the little chrildren to come to me. this word [Suffer] means Allow, or let .
IN JESUS MY LORD. Parsonsmom

divaD
Sep 2nd 2008, 09:48 PM
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Our disobedience is of God! Still believe we have free will?

Hi legoman.
I'm not certain what Bible you got this translation, but I don't care for the above translation at all. It changes the whole meaning of ch 11 as a whole. If we read Romans 11 in context, we will notice that when we get to verse 32 that this is referring to God's chosen people, the Jews, and not everyone. And because of their disbelief, God could turn this into a blessing to those that were outside of His old covenants. IOW, there is now a new covenant where there is no difference between Jews, or Greek. God could now have mercy on all instead of just His chosen people.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

According to Strong's, 'unbelief' means :1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

This translation makes much more sense and fits perfectly with the context of the ch. The 'all' in the first half of the verse is referring to His chosen people. The 'all' in the last half of this verse includes everyone. Of course this doesn't mean all as in universal salvation, it means all as in what we might see in Galatians 3:28-29. The translation you provided, well at least the way that you interp it, changes the whole meaning of the message.


Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


This is the mercy that happened because of God's chosen people as a whole, and their unbelief. Now God could have mercy on all and not just His chosen people.

legoman
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:25 AM
Hi legoman.
I'm not certain what Bible you got this translation, but I don't care for the above translation at all. It changes the whole meaning of ch 11 as a whole. If we read Romans 11 in context, we will notice that when we get to verse 32 that this is referring to God's chosen people, the Jews, and not everyone. And because of their disbelief, God could turn this into a blessing to those that were outside of His old covenants. IOW, there is now a new covenant where there is no difference between Jews, or Greek. God could now have mercy on all instead of just His chosen people.


Hi divaD,

This is from the NIV. Again not the best translation perhaps. Sorry about that. But I think Strong's and the KJV meanings are similar.



Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

According to Strong's, 'unbelief' means :1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

This translation makes much more sense and fits perfectly with the context of the ch. The 'all' in the first half of the verse is referring to His chosen people. The 'all' in the last half of this verse includes everyone. Of course this doesn't mean all as in universal salvation, it means all as in what we might see in Galatians 3:28-29. The translation you provided, well at least the way that you interp it, changes the whole meaning of the message.

Sorry, I don't buy your "context argument". Romans 11:31 is quite clearly talking about "they" - Israel - Israel has been given to unbelief so that God might give mercy to them.

Then we come to the next verse Romans 11:32. Here is Young's Literal translation:

"for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness."

It quite clearly says "the whole". This means all, as in all men. You can't say "the whole" in the first part of the verse is different from "the whole" in the second part of the verse. That doesn't make sense. I think the NIV got that right at least. God put all men into unbelief so he might have mercy on them all.

Good night,
Legoman

parsonsmom
Sep 7th 2008, 02:41 AM
[quote=Ethnikos;1755151]Paul is talking about the salvation of the gentiles, opposed to the salvation of the Jews. This verse, to me, is part of a bigger question and I think it means that everyone will be judged by a common law and will be saved by a common salvation.
I do not think Paul is trying to say that God caused the gentiles to sin. God applies some sort of law over them that points out their sinfulness.
The Jews were held to a higher standard than the nations because they were expected to be priests to the world. Once a new system of salvation comes along, they would be naturally reluctant to change. Once the gentiles become apparently less sinful, the Jews could have some substantial

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ROMANS 11:28-33
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

From the point of view of the Gospel, The good news, they the Jews, at present are enemies of God, which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice of election, of divine selection, they are still the beloved, dear to Him for the sake of their forefathers. For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call. Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained His
mercy, through their disobedience, So they also now are being disobedient
when you are receiving mercy, that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy, that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you--through you as messengers of the Gospel to them For God has consigned or penned up all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all alike.
IN JESUS MY LORD. Parsonmom.

StevenC
Sep 13th 2008, 07:45 PM
Actually Adam and Eve chose to disobey God by eating the apple. God gave his creation the ability to choose to obey. Refusing to obey was called sin, and sin leads to death.

It didn't end in the garden of eden and we still have that same choice today. Because Christ has made atonement for our sins we can receive life, even though we have sinned against God. We just have to accept that Jesus is the messiah, and turn away from evil.

-Steven

parsonsmom
Sep 13th 2008, 08:19 PM
Actually Adam and Eve chose to disobey God by eating the apple. God gave his creation the ability to choose to obey. Refusing to obey was called sin, and sin leads to death.

It didn't end in the garden of eden and we still have that same choice today. Because Christ has made atonement for our sins we can receive life, even though we have sinned against God. We just have to accept that Jesus is the messiah, and turn away from evil.

-Steven
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AMEN Brother Stephen, thank you. Parsons mom.