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Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 04:20 PM
According to the following, Jesus and the apostles did not always do according to the laws of the Sabbath, this was a problem for those in charge but not for Jesus. Can you explain why this is so?

Lk 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Lk 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Jn 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Thanks

Firstfruits

eliyahu137
Aug 15th 2008, 04:27 PM
Hi FF,
In order to fully follow the traditional teachings on Sabbath law, one would have to memorize volumes worth of rabbinical material and then take scientifically precise care to be successful. In that time, things were not a complicated. But that still did not make it much easier to feel safe about not breaking the Sabbath on accident.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath according to the actual words of the Bible. Each instance of him being accused of breaking the Sabbath had no Old Testament reference. These were traditions that were held on the same level as scripture by the rabbis. While Jesus did certainly obey many traditions, as all Jews would have in that time, he disreguarded certain traditions that he deemed to be nullifying the written word of God. Jesus came to set people free, not to pat the rabbis on the back. If he were to truly have broken the Sabbath before God, he would have been in sin.

Rullion Green
Aug 15th 2008, 04:33 PM
I would say they did keep the sabbath.

They didn't keep the traditions of the sabbath that the rabbi's had placed on the Sabbath wich made the sabbath a burden thats why Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27), but they did keep that Sabbath.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 04:34 PM
According to the following, Jesus and the apostles did not always do according to the laws of the Sabbath, this was a problem for those in charge but not for Jesus. Can you explain why this is so?

Lk 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Lk 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Jn 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Thanks

Firstfruits

they did keep the sabbath... the way it should have been kept...

the reality is that the Pharisees had such a tradition regarding the sabbath they wouldn't lift a finger to help a dying man at the side of the road because it would have been looked upon as work and it would have violated their so called position with God... Jesus didn't break the sabbath, he didn't redefine the sabbath, he put it back into the original meaning.. the sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath... that's why he healed a man on the sabbath... he pointed out to them that David and his men ate the showbread because they were hungry although it was 'unlawful' the reality is that there is a greater law than the law of the sabbath... the law of mercy and compassion which the Pharisees did not have at all

David Taylor
Aug 15th 2008, 04:37 PM
Hi FF,
In order to fully follow the traditional teachings on Sabbath law, one would have to memorize volumes worth of rabbinical material and then take scientifically precise care to be successful.


So following Jesus' teachings from scripture regarding the sabbath aren't sufficient?



In that time, things were not a complicated. But that still did not make it much easier to feel safe about not breaking the Sabbath on accident.

Things are still not that complicated.

Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight"

Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. "

Galatians 5:14 "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 04:38 PM
Matthew 12:2-4 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Jesus gives an interesting response. Let’s take a look at what he brings up.
1 Samuel 21
David Takes Consecrated Bread
1Then David came to Nob to Ahimelech the priest; and Ahimelech came trembling to meet David and said to him, "Why are you alone and no one with you?" 2David said to Ahimelech the priest, "The king has commissioned me with a matter and has said to me, ' Let no one know anything about the matter on which I am sending you and with which I have commissioned you; and I have directed the young men to a certain place.' 3"Now therefore, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever can be found." 4The priest answered David and said, "There is no ordinary bread on hand, but there is consecrated bread; if only the young men have kept themselves from women." 5David answered the priest and said to him, "Surely women have been kept from us as previously when I set out and the vessels of the young men were holy, though it was an ordinary journey; how much more then today will their vessels be holy?"
The priest concerned in this story makes an allowance in this situation for a couple of reasons. The disciples would have fallen under the same jurisdiction as Jesus, just as the young men were under the same jurisdiction as David. David convinced the priest that they were on a special mission, just as Jesus was on a special mission on the Sabbath and his disciples with him, with Jesus as their Lord.

Bryan43
Aug 15th 2008, 04:39 PM
they did keep the sabbath... the way it should have been kept...

the reality is that the Pharisees had such a tradition regarding the sabbath they wouldn't lift a finger to help a dying man at the side of the road because it would have been looked upon as work and it would have violated their so called position with God... Jesus didn't break the sabbath, he didn't redefine the sabbath, he put it back into the original meaning.. the sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath... that's why he healed a man on the sabbath... he pointed out to them that David and his men ate the showbread because they were hungry although it was 'unlawful' the reality is that there is a greater law than the law of the sabbath... the law of mercy and compassion which the Pharisees did not have at all

Yes excelent.


People seem to forget the jewish people when they returned from exile created a bunch of new laws, and embolded and change others. to make sure they did not go into captivity again.

through the years. people treated these add ons like they were origionals. And became haughty in their pride of keeping them. Anyone who did not was a sinner and doomed.

Jesus broke these laws on purpose. to show them one his compashion. but two how they were not from God. but mans feeble attempt to make themselves better. when in reality they twisted the laws of god meant for our good, and destroyed them

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 04:52 PM
Hi FF,
In order to fully follow the traditional teachings on Sabbath law, one would have to memorize volumes worth of rabbinical material and then take scientifically precise care to be successful. In that time, things were not a complicated. But that still did not make it much easier to feel safe about not breaking the Sabbath on accident.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath according to the actual words of the Bible. Each instance of him being accused of breaking the Sabbath had no Old Testament reference. These were traditions that were held on the same level as scripture by the rabbis. While Jesus did certainly obey many traditions, as all Jews would have in that time, he disregarded certain traditions that he deemed to be nullifying the written word of God. Jesus came to set people free, not to pat the rabbis on the back. If he were to truly have broken the Sabbath before God, he would have been in sin.

Jesus admitted that he had worked on the Sabbath, so why was it alright for Jesus to work on the Sabbath?

Jn 5:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The things that Jesus did were the works of God; Jn 5:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Firstfruits

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 05:45 PM
According to the following, Jesus and the apostles did not always do according to the laws of the Sabbath, this was a problem for those in charge but not for Jesus. Can you explain why this is so?

Lk 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Lk 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Jn 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Thanks

Firstfruits

¿According to which law? because it is clear that Jesus is God.

The point is that Christ as Priest ordered his disciples to do several things on Saturday.

Here there is no breach of the Law because the high priest was present.

Blessings.

seamus414
Aug 15th 2008, 05:50 PM
According to the following, Jesus and the apostles did not always do according to the laws of the Sabbath, this was a problem for those in charge but not for Jesus. Can you explain why this is so?

Lk 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Lk 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Jn 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Thanks

Firstfruits

They were compliant with the Sabbath. The Pharasees expanded the prohibitions beyond the original intent.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 06:15 PM
I am going to take a position contrary to everyone else. I believe that Jesus probably did indeed violate the Sabbath with a very specific intent in mind - to do away with the symbols that endorsed the idea that the Jews alone were heirs to the covenant promises. As we know from Romans, this is certainly not the case - Paul argues that "true" Israel is constituted by both Jews and Gentiles.

So while Torah, and especially the bits like the Sabbath law, had their "time and place", Jesus intentionally breaks Torah to say, like Paul does in his epistles - the "dividing line" between Jew and Gentile - namely the Torah - has been "retired" (although it still lives on, but in a sense that does not entail keeping the Sabbath - but that's another debate).

So, against what others have written, I will assert that Jesus challenge to the Sabbath was not so much directed against legalism as it was directed against Jewish nationalism - the view that Jews have an "inside track" on salvation.

Now I am not unaware of at least one text - Exodus 31:16 that seems to establish the Sabbath forever. Here is a rendering of this verse according to the Net Bible:

The Israelites must keep the Sabbath by observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant

I would submit that we can legitimately read this as "the Sabbath must be kept as long as Israel as a nation exists". I will suggest that for intents and purposes, Israel as a nation "fulfilled its purpose" on the cross. So, yes, I believe that at the cross, God entirely did away with the "chosen-ness" of national Israel. All the Israel-specific promises are, as Paul says, "'yes' in Christ".

I am also open to another view about the Sabbath and Jesus that I will not go into in this post. But, just to stir the pot, I do not believe that the mainstream interpretation - that Jesus violated a "legalistic" distortion of the Sabbath law - is correct. I think that His statements in Matthew 12 make that clear.

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:24 PM
¿According to which law? because it is clear that Jesus is God.

The point is that Christ as Priest ordered his disciples to do several things on Saturday.

Here there is no breach of the Law because the high priest was present.

Blessings.

It is written in the law that no work shall be done on the Sabbath yet Jesus admitted to doing the work of the Father on the Sabbath;

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

According to the following is Jesus not with us always?

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. amen.

Would that therefore apply to all who are in Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:27 PM
I am going to take a position contrary to everyone else. I believe that Jesus probably did indeed violate the Sabbath with a very specific intent in mind - to do away with the symbols that endorsed the idea that the Jews alone were heirs to the covenant promises. As we know from Romans, this is certainly not the case - Paul argues that "true" Israel is constituted by both Jews and Gentiles.

So while Torah, and especially the bits like the Sabbath law, had their "time and place", Jesus intentionally breaks Torah to say, like Paul does in his epistles - the "dividing line" between Jew and Gentile - namely the Torah - has been "retired" (although it still lives on, but in a sense that does not entail keeping the Sabbath - but that's another debate).

So, against what others have written, I will assert that Jesus challenge to the Sabbath was not so much directed against legalism as it was directed against Jewish nationalism - the view that Jews have an "inside track" on salvation.

Now I am not unaware of at least one text - Exodus 31:16 that seems to establish the Sabbath forever. Here is a rendering of this verse according to the Net Bible:

The Israelites must keep the Sabbath by observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant

I would submit that we can legitimately read this as "the Sabbath must be kept as long as Israel as a nation exists". I will suggest that for intents and purposes, Israel as a nation "fulfilled its purpose" on the cross. So, yes, I believe that at the cross, God entirely did away with the "chosen-ness" of national Israel. All the Israel-specific promises are, as Paul says, "'yes' in Christ".

I am also open to another view about the Sabbath and Jesus that I will not go into in this post. But, just to stir the pot, I do not believe that the mainstream interpretation - that Jesus violated a "legalistic" distortion of the Sabbath law - is correct. I think that His statements in Matthew 12 make that clear.

According to the following, did Jesus work on the Sabbath?

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:30 PM
They were compliant with the Sabbath. The Pharasees expanded the prohibitions beyond the original intent.

Did they change the commandment that no work should be done on the Sabbath, which clearly Jesus did?

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Firstfruits

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 06:33 PM
He kept it the way it was supposed to be kept, ceremonially. When a moral good and a ceremonial ritual butted heads, He always allowed the moral to trump the ceremonial because God desires mercy (moral) over sacrifice (ceremonial).

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:33 PM
Yes excelent.


People seem to forget the jewish people when they returned from exile created a bunch of new laws, and embolded and change others. to make sure they did not go into captivity again.

through the years. people treated these add ons like they were origionals. And became haughty in their pride of keeping them. Anyone who did not was a sinner and doomed.

Jesus broke these laws on purpose. to show them one his compashion. but two how they were not from God. but mans feeble attempt to make themselves better. when in reality they twisted the laws of god meant for our good, and destroyed them

Was it God or Israel that created this commandment not to work on the Sabbath?

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:43 PM
Hi FF,
In order to fully follow the traditional teachings on Sabbath law, one would have to memorize volumes worth of rabbinical material and then take scientifically precise care to be successful. In that time, things were not a complicated. But that still did not make it much easier to feel safe about not breaking the Sabbath on accident.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath according to the actual words of the Bible. Each instance of him being accused of breaking the Sabbath had no Old Testament reference. These were traditions that were held on the same level as scripture by the rabbis. While Jesus did certainly obey many traditions, as all Jews would have in that time, he disreguarded certain traditions that he deemed to be nullifying the written word of God. Jesus came to set people free, not to pat the rabbis on the back. If he were to truly have broken the Sabbath before God, he would have been in sin.

How do you explain/understand the Sabath law as it was given, knowing that Jesus and his disciples worked on the Sabbath?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 06:47 PM
According to the following, did Jesus work on the Sabbath?

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Firstfruits
Yes, I think He worked, and I believe the John 5 material supports the notion that Jesus indeed broke the Sabbath - He worked on the Sabbath (by His own admission). That is breaking the Sabbath - it is not breaking a legalistic distortion of it.

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 06:55 PM
Yes, I think He worked, and I believe the John 5 material supports the notion that Jesus indeed broke the Sabbath - He worked on the Sabbath (by His own admission). That is breaking the Sabbath - it is not breaking a legalistic distortion of it.

As it is written that Jesus and the disciples worked on the Sabbath did what was written in the law concerning the Sabbath not apply to them?

What then did Jesus come to fulfil?

Firstfruits

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 06:59 PM
Here is the ultimate question...

is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath or to do evil? which of you having a lamb in the ditch would not reach down and pull him out even on the sabbath? But their attitude for God's most precious possession people was cold hearted and callous... The Pharisees saw a man who was lame from birth carrying his bed on the Sabbath, instead of identifying the work of the Lord and praising God for the work, they lambasted the man for carrying his bed on the Sabbath... They had more compassion on their animals than they did on each other...

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 07:00 PM
It is written in the law that no work shall be done on the Sabbath yet Jesus admitted to doing the work of the Father on the Sabbath;

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

According to the following is Jesus not with us always?

Mt 28:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. amen.

Would that therefore apply to all who are in Christ?

Firstfruits

Yes, but as Christ is the Author of Law, who can explain better apart from him?

It is better to note that Christ gave the explanation about the rest and no explanation of the Pharisees who charged to O.T commandments of men.

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 07:04 PM
Yes, but as Christ is the Author of Law, who can explain better apart from him?

It is better to note that Christ gave the explanation about the rest and no explanation of the Pharisees who charged to O.T commandments of men.

Did the Author of the law change the law?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:07 PM
Did the Author of the law change the law?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

I would rep you for this if they would let me... my gosh that is a stellar point... if God never changes, ever... then how does that fit in with our interpretation of God's law... how can we say that he changes things for us and not everyone else...

brilliant point firstfruits!

Timmy

Bryan43
Aug 15th 2008, 07:10 PM
Was it God or Israel that created this commandment not to work on the Sabbath?

Deut 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Firstfruits



one must define work. Does anyone think moving a chiar to be work?? According to the jewish addition, even moving a chair would be breaking the law.

What god wanted was for them to take a day of rest. Not what the jews were practicing at the time of Christ.

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 07:21 PM
As it is written that Jesus and the disciples worked on the Sabbath did what was written in the law concerning the Sabbath not apply to them?

What then did Jesus come to fulfil?

Firstfruits
Matthew 17:25 ... And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.
I think that the answer of Jesus to the question from the Pharisees was very similar to what Jesus said in response to the question about paying the tax. Jesus said, "I am Lord, also of the Sabbath."

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:21 PM
is not healing someone work? What about feeding someone?

the Sabbath was a time of restoration and healing and enjoyment and feasting... any kind of enjoyable and lawful activity that could be enjoyed was encouraged on the Sabbath... because it's a sign of the coming age when Christ will establish his kingdom and give his children rest and restore the earth

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 07:22 PM
I would rep you for this if they would let me... my gosh that is a stellar point... if God never changes, ever... then how does that fit in with our interpretation of God's law... how can we say that he changes things for us and not everyone else...

brilliant point firstfruits!

Timmy

Thanks Timmy,

This is what God says about his commandments he has given;

Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

So if the Author of the law did not observe the law then is there a different meaning to the following scripture?

Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And what also does this mean?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 15th 2008, 07:31 PM
I Jesus did not keep Sabbath, then he is disqualified as the perfect sacrifice.

Instrument
Aug 15th 2008, 07:48 PM
Did the Author of the law change the law?


who changed the law were the Pharisees

the author of the law will back its meaning.

One thing is the letter of the law and another the spirit of the law.

Emanate
Aug 15th 2008, 07:50 PM
Explain the work that he was referring to? I find it hard to believe in that verse that it was physical labor. Is it lawful to do good 'works' on Sabbath? Of course it is.

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:52 PM
Jesus worked on the Sabbath. It clearly says in the OT that no one was to work on the Sabbath. So, did Jesus break the Sabbath law? Of course not. As always, He had a much better understanding of the law than anyone else. What the Pharisees didn't understand was that no one was to do normal manual labor on the Sabbath. Work that was spiritual in nature was always allowed. The priests offered sacrifices and did other things on the Sabbath, right? That was work, wasn't it? The work of God was always allowed on the Sabbath. It was meant as a day of rest from normal, every day work, not from doing the work of God.

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 07:53 PM
one must define work. Does anyone think moving a chiar to be work?? According to the jewish addition, even moving a chair would be breaking the law.

What god wanted was for them to take a day of rest. Not what the jews were practicing at the time of Christ.

Would you class lighting a fire to be work? Yet you cannot even light a fire.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Ex 35:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 07:57 PM
I disagree with this. Jesus worked on the Sabbath. It clearly says in the OT that no one was to work on the Sabbath. So, did Jesus break the Sabbath law? Of course not. As always, He had a much better understanding of the law than anyone else. What the Pharisees didn't understand was that no one was to do normal manual labor on the Sabbath. Work that was spritual in nature was always allowed. The priests offered sacrifices and did other things on the Sabbath, right? That was work, wasn't it? The work of God was always allowed on the Sabbath. It was meant as a day of rest from normal, every day work, not from doing the work of God.

May I ask why God rested on the Sabbath and then established his law?

Firstfruits

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 07:57 PM
As it is written that Jesus and the disciples worked on the Sabbath did what was written in the law concerning the Sabbath not apply to them?

What then did Jesus come to fulfil?

Firstfruits
I think that one of the things Jesus did was to abolish the Torah, at least in respect to its function of demarcating Jew from Gentile. So its not that the Torah did not "apply" to Jesus, but rather that He had the authority and the reason to abolish it (in the sense indicated).

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 07:58 PM
May I ask why God rested on the Sabbath and then established his law?

FirstfruitsSure, you may ask that. ;)

First, I'd appreciate it if you commented on what I said in my post, though.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 07:59 PM
I think that one of the things Jesus did was to abolish the Torah, at least in respect to its function of demarcating Jew from Gentile. So its not that the Torah did not "apply" to Jesus, but rather that He had the authority and the reason to abolish it (in the sense indicated).

he fulfilled the ceremonial requirements of the Torah... but the principles of mercy and morality he clarified and established... he didn't come to abolish... but to fulfill... and by fulfilling it he didn't do away with it... the righteous requirement of the law is still in effect...

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 08:00 PM
Matthew 17:25 ... And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.
I think that the answer of Jesus to the question from the Pharisees was very similar to what Jesus said in response to the question about paying the tax. Jesus said, "I am Lord, also of the Sabbath."

As we are the Sons of God are we therefore also exempt?

Firstfruits

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 08:05 PM
Jesus worked on the Sabbath. It clearly says in the OT that no one was to work on the Sabbath. So, did Jesus break the Sabbath law? Of course not.
Why do you say "of course not" as if it is out of the question for God to say "the Torah has done its job, time to retire it with honour"? I think it is clear that Paul understood that there was indeed a sense in which in which God was abolishing Torah:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility



What the Pharisees didn't understand was that no one was to do normal manual labor on the Sabbath. Work that was spiritual in nature was always allowed.
I politely suggest that this a false distinction - there really is no principled distinction between "normal" work and "spiritual" work. This false dualism is, I suggest, is one of the major errors of modern Christianity. Digging a ditch is as much a "spiritual" act as giving a sermon.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 08:07 PM
he fulfilled the ceremonial requirements of the Torah... but the principles of mercy and morality he clarified and established... he didn't come to abolish... but to fulfill... and by fulfilling it he didn't do away with it... the righteous requirement of the law is still in effect...
Indeed, that is why I have been clear to suggest that Torah has only been abolished in a particular sense. However, I suggest that the Sabbath prohibition against work was abolished. And the way Jesus signalled its abolition was by publically and intentionally breaking it.

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 08:11 PM
Why do you say "of course not" as if it is out of the question for God to say "the Torah has done its job, time to retire it with honour"? I think it is clear that Paul understood that there was indeed a sense in which in which God was abolishing Torah:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility

I politely suggest that this a false distinction - there really is no principled distinction between "normal" work and "spiritual" work. This false dualism is, I suggest, is one of the major errors of modern Christianity. Digging a ditch is as much a "spiritual" act as giving a sermon.Show me where it says Jesus broke the Sabbath as it is defined in scripture and I'll agree with you. Jesus only broke the Sabbath according to the Pharisees mistaken understanding of what it meant to keep the Sabbath.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 08:12 PM
Would you class lighting a fire to be work? Yet you cannot even light a fire.
True enough - I cannot see one could argue that lighting a fire is not work - or that pulling a pig out of a hole is not work.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 08:22 PM
Show me where it says Jesus broke the Sabbath as it is defined in scripture and I'll agree with you. Jesus only broke the Sabbath according to the Pharisees mistaken understanding of what it meant to keep the Sabbath.
In Matthew 12, Jesus clearly endorses the breaking of the Law by David and his men. Not man's law - God's law - the shewbread law comes from God:

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests

Jesus is saying its OK to break God's law in certain circumstances. Note that Jesus says it was indeed not lawful to do what David did. This is not saying "what David did was lawful to God's law but not to the Pharisaic distortion of it".

Why would Jesus endorse an instance of an actual breaking of God's Law, if what He was doing was merely a violation of man's distortion of that Law.

Besides, Paul is clear in Ephesians as per my previous post:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

Jesus' death and resurrection abolished the Law (in a sense). So it is eminently reasonable to see Jesus (in Matthew 12) as abolishing the Sabbath part of it "in advance"

Emanate
Aug 15th 2008, 08:23 PM
Firstfruits

It would easier to talk with you if you finally tried to make a point instead of sidestepping attempts at discourse with you. If you want to debate Rabbinc Law then I am more than willing. Each instance you continually cite about Jesus "working" on the Sabbath is found in Rabbinic discourse of the first century. They all speak to specific arguments that are this day recorded in the Mishnah.

It is appears that you are trying to dispute the validity of Y'shua being Messiah. If so, please stop beating around the bush.

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 08:25 PM
In Matthew 12, Jesus clearly endorses the breaking of the Law by David and his men. Not man's law - God's law - the shewbread law comes from God:

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests

Jesus is saying its OK to break God's law in certain circumstances. Note that Jesus says it was indeed not lawful to do what David did. This is not saying "what David did was lawful to God's law but not to the Pharisaic distortion of it".

Why would Jesus endorse an instance of an actual breaking of God's Law, if what He was doing was merely a violation of man's distortion of that Law.

Besides, Paul is clear in Ephesians as per my previous post:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

Jesus' death and resurrection abolished the Law (in a sense). So it is eminently reasonable to see Jesus (in Matthew 12) as abolishing the Sabbath part of it "in advance"Why wouldn't He have abolished the other 9 commandments in advance of His death and resurrection as well then?

Can you show me where Jesus broke the Sabbath according to scripture's definition of what that meant rather than the Pharisees' definition?

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 08:35 PM
Can you show me where Jesus broke the Sabbath according to scripture's definition of what that meant rather than the Pharisees' definition?

We shouldn't be TOO uncomfortable thinking in terms of Jesus breaking the Sabbath. John, himself, felt comfortable using the term...

John 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

That's not the Pharisees talking. That's John writing. He felt comfortable describing what Jesus was doing as 'breaking the Sabbath'. Of course, he wasn't saying that Jesus was breaking it in any important sense. He was 'trumping' it with moral good. But this can be described as breaking it. It's the same thing David did when his men ate the ceremonial bread. It's the same thing the priests do when they work on the Sabbath. Technically, in all 3 cases, the Sabbath Law is broken, but all 3 examples were pleasing to God b/c He is primarily interested in mercy (feeding the hungry, obedience), not sacrifice (ceremonial laws like the Sabbath).

I can understand why people are reluctant to use the word 'broke' when referring to how Jesus treated the Sabbath. But with a lil clarification I don't see why it should be avoided.


1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23496a)] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23497b)] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."


The above illustrates my point perfectly...

When Jesus was accused of having disciples who were breaking the Sabbath (BOLD line #1), His response wasn't that they hadn't broke the Sabbath, but that they were justified in doing so. David had, indeed, done what is 'not lawful' (BOLD line #2), but it was right in God's eyes. The priests did, indeed, 'descrate the day' (BOLD line #3), but they were yet innocent. Jesus' disciples were innocent as well b/c God desires mercy over sacrifice.

So we shouldn't be shy about saying that David did what was unlawful. Or that the priests desecrate the day. Or that Jesus and His disciples broke the Sabbath. We just have to understand the context of WHY what they did (or didn't do) was perfectly right to do (or not do).

John146
Aug 15th 2008, 08:50 PM
We shouldn't be TOO uncomfortable thinking in terms of Jesus breaking the Sabbath. John, himself, felt comfortable using the term...

John 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

That's not the Pharisees talking. That's John writing. He felt comfortable describing what Jesus was doing as 'breaking the Sabbath'. Of course, he wasn't saying that Jesus was breaking it in any important sense. He was 'trumping' it with moral good. But this can be described as breaking it. It's the same thing David did when his men ate the ceremonial bread. It's the same thing the priests do when they work on the Sabbath. Technically, in all 3 cases, the Sabbath Law is broken, but all 3 examples were pleasing to God b/c He is primarily interested in mercy (feeding the hungry, obedience), not sacrifice (ceremonial laws like the Sabbath).

I can understand why people are reluctant to use the word 'broke' when referring to how Jesus treated the Sabbath. But with a lil clarification I don't see why it should be avoided.I think I need to clarify my position. Yes, you could say He technically broke the Sabbath. But, in actuality, He didn't actually break any commandment in such a way that you could say He violated the law. Heaven forbid, right? Wouldn't that have been a sin, if He did? He didn't make the old covenant obsolete until the cross, right? We're talking about something that occurred before the cross.

What the Pharisees didn't understand was that certain things trumped the Sabbath, as you pointed out. So, did He truly do anything unlawful by technically (but not actually) breaking the Sabbath? No.

Let's say He coveted something that belonged to one of His disciples. A clear violation of the law, right? There's nothing written that would make that okay, right? Let's at least assume that for the sake of argument. In that case, He would have violated the law. He would have sinned. Do you think Jesus would ever have done that? As I said, the old covenant wasn't made obsolete until His death on the cross. Before that, Jesus kept all the commandments perfectly and never violated any of them unless there were things that trumped them, like healing the sick.

Ethnikos
Aug 15th 2008, 08:56 PM
As we are the Sons of God are we therefore also exempt?

Firstfruits
Currently I am looking at this question in a slightly different way.
This is part of what I wrote to someone who asked me if he could be condemned by the Law for being a homosexual. It may have application to any of the Old Testament laws:
A lot of Christians feel that the old laws were done away with, despite lack of sufficient Biblical evidence for that assumption. So, when they try to go ahead and apply some of those laws, they leave themselves without a way to support their position. My view is that the Old Testament Laws are still in affect. But, does that mean we have to all become Jews? I think not, because these laws did not even save the Jews, much less the gentiles. How can Christians hope to be able to live their lives without bringing upon themselves condemnation from all these laws they are not following?Peter, then Paul were sent out to bring the Gospel to the nations and were given an allowance to not have to keep all the Jewish laws. Along with Paul, the people with him were given that same allowance and the people they brought in to the Gospel were not required to keep any more than what Paul and his followers were required to.
How can we go about living in a world where there were all these strict laws from God, but could safely ignore them. As long as they remained under the jurisdiction of the Gospel, they retained this same exemption that Paul was given. Now, all of Christendom is in this system, as long as they believe in the Gospel and follow the demands made of Paul and his followers. That short list of requirements was to keep a certain degree of ritual purity among the followers. In a way, this ritual gives us a status as priests in the temple that Christ built. If we loose our status, by disbelief or rebelliousness against the requirements for purity, we fall back under the jurisdiction of the Old Law, that is still there to put us under condemnation. So, if we, (meaning Christians) try to apply those same Laws that we are temporarily sheltered from, in order to condemn others, we put ourselves under that same condemnation. All we can do is to warn our brothers to remain in the Faith. Anyone who ignores the call of the Gospel, should be considered as a heathen. One person in History attained the full righteousness under the whole Law, and if we want to put ourselves under it we have about zero chance.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 09:09 PM
Can you show me where Jesus broke the Sabbath according to scripture's definition of what that meant rather than the Pharisees' definition?
I will have to get back to you on that - not enough time to answer. But surely you do agree that Torah has been abolished, don't you?:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

So it should not be strange to say that the Sabbath rule has been done away with - Paul clearly is talking about Torah being abolished. Perhaps you see an important distinction between Torah being abolished in Jesus's death and resurrection and Jesus Himself breaking Torah.

I do not see that distintion myself. If Jesus' death and resurrection brought about the end of Torah - which Paul clearly states to be the case, then it seems reasonable that Jesus might, through His own behaviour, actually start to bring that about.

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 09:20 PM
I think I need to clarify my position. Yes, you could say He technically broke the Sabbath. But, in actuality, He didn't actually break any commandment in such a way that you could say He violated the law. Heaven forbid, right? Wouldn't that have been a sin, if He did? He didn't make the old covenant obsolete until the cross, right? We're talking about something that occurred before the cross.

What the Pharisees didn't understand was that certain things trumped the Sabbath, as you pointed out. So, did He truly do anything unlawful by technically (but not actually) breaking the Sabbath? No.

Let's say He coveted something that belonged to one of His disciples. A clear violation of the law, right? There's nothing written that would make that okay, right? Let's at least assume that for the sake of argument. In that case, He would have violated the law. He would have sinned. Do you think Jesus would ever have done that? As I said, the old covenant wasn't made obsolete until His death on the cross. Before that, Jesus kept all the commandments perfectly and never violated any of them unless there were things that trumped them, like healing the sick.

I think we are in agreement. I just, perhaps, feel more at ease at saying that He 'broke' the Sabbath and then clarifying that He didn't do so in a sinful way (but, indeed, in a righteous way).

Friend of I AM
Aug 15th 2008, 09:23 PM
I think we are in agreement. I just, perhaps, feel more at ease at saying that He 'broke' the Sabbath and then clarifying that He didn't do so in a sinful way (but, indeed, in a righteous way).

He didn't really break it per say, as he is Lord of the Sabbath...so he can do what he wants to on it, as he created it...lol. The Pharisees didn't realize this..that's why they called him a lawbreaker and stated he was a blasphemer...

Emanate
Aug 15th 2008, 09:25 PM
Drew
can you show me in the Torah the "barrier, the dividing wall of hostility"?

or maybe the barrier was in the Jewish Law?

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 09:35 PM
He didn't really break it per say, as he is Lord of the Sabbath...so he can do what he wants to on it, as he created it...lol. The Pharisees didn't realize this..that's why they called him a lawbreaker and stated he was a blasphemer...

Well, He did break it. But He wasn't wrong to do so. John felt comfortable saying He broke it. Jesus felt comfortable saying David did what was unlawful. Jesus also felt comfortable saying the priests desecrated the day. But all 3 parties were innocent. They didn't 'break' it in a way offensive to God. In fact, the way that they broke it was 'pleasing' to God. It's not so much that He's 'OK' b/c He can do 'what He wants,' but rather that He did what His Father wanted (mercy over sacrifice).

It's akin to an ambulance 'breaking' the speed limit. Are they breaking it? Yes. Are they right to do so? Yes. B/c the speed limit law is trumped by the law of mercy.

timmyb
Aug 15th 2008, 09:46 PM
Well, He did break it. But He wasn't wrong to do so. John felt comfortable saying He broke it. Jesus felt comfortable saying David did what was unlawful. Jesus also felt comfortable saying the priests desecrated the day. But all 3 parties were innocent. They didn't 'break' it in a way offensive to God. In fact, the way that they broke it was 'pleasing' to God. It's not so much that He's 'OK' b/c He can do 'what He wants,' but rather that He did what His Father wanted (mercy over sacrifice).

It's akin to an ambulance 'breaking' the speed limit. Are they breaking it? Yes. Are they right to do so? Yes. B/c the speed limit law is trumped by the law of mercy.

not to mention that all traffic lights go out the window when there is a life at stake... what do the police do when your pregnant wife is in labor and you're breaking the speed limit, the Pharisees would give you a ticket and tell you to obey the law, Jesus escorts you to the hospital and stays after the baby is born... the law of mercy

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 10:15 PM
Sure, you may ask that. ;)

First, I'd appreciate it if you commented on what I said in my post, though.

My question was in regards to your post as you said that it was alright to do the work of God on the Sabbath, but God himself rested on the Sabbath and established his law that no-one should work on the Sabbath.


Thanks

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 10:21 PM
Firstfruits

It would easier to talk with you if you finally tried to make a point instead of sidestepping attempts at discourse with you. If you want to debate Rabbinc Law then I am more than willing. Each instance you continually cite about Jesus "working" on the Sabbath is found in Rabbinic discourse of the first century. They all speak to specific arguments that are this day recorded in the Mishnah.

It is appears that you are trying to dispute the validity of Y'shua being Messiah. If so, please stop beating around the bush.

Whose law is this, Rabbinc or from God?

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Ex 35:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 10:25 PM
Why wouldn't He have abolished the other 9 commandments in advance of His death and resurrection as well then?

Can you show me where Jesus broke the Sabbath according to scripture's definition of what that meant rather than the Pharisees' definition?

The other nine have all changed, but I am going to have a rest now, so I will post them when I return, for me it is good night and thanks for now.

God bless

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 16th 2008, 10:44 AM
Unless God has changed his law, and Jesus did not mean what he said; Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. then these are the commandments that God gave to Israel.

No other Gods
Deut 13:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Blasphemy
Lev 24:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

The Sabbath
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Honour thy Father and Mother
Ex 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ex 21:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Ex 21:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Thou shalt not kill
Ex 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to
death.

Adultery
Deut 22:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Covetousness
Josh 7:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

False witnesses
Deut 19:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deut 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Thou shalt not steal
Zech 5:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Judgment
Deut 17:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
Deut 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and According to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Deut 17:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Now I ask again, has the Author of the law changed his law?

Why did Gods law not apply to Jesus and his followers?

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 16th 2008, 11:26 AM
Now I ask again, has the Author of the law changed his law?

Why did Gods law not apply to Jesus and his followers?

Firstfruits Jesus was/is sinless. Sin is defined by God's law. Jesus did not follow man's added laws ("oral Torah") when they strayed from the intent of the original. He was in perfect harmony with His own law codified at Sinai. He authored the "written Torah" and walked as the "Living Torah." todd

Firstfruits
Aug 16th 2008, 01:27 PM
Jesus was/is sinless. Sin is defined by God's law. Jesus did not follow man's added laws ("oral Torah") when they strayed from the intent of the original. He was in perfect harmony with His own law codified at Sinai. He authored the "written Torah" and walked as the "Living Torah." todd

With what God gave to Israel, knowing that it cannot be added to or taken away from, can what God has commanded be applied today or has it changed?

No other Gods
Deut 13:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Blasphemy
Lev 24:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

The Sabbath
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Honour thy Father and Mother
Ex 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ex 21:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Ex 21:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Thou shalt not kill
Ex 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to
death.

Adultery
Deut 22:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Covetousness
Josh 7:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

False witnesses
Deut 19:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deut 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Thou shalt not steal
Zech 5:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Judgment
Deut 17:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
Deut 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and According to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Deut 17:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Firstfruits

Servant89
Aug 16th 2008, 05:34 PM
TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EXORTS US DIRECTLY TO KEEP THE SABBATH OR WARNS DIRECTLY THOSE THAT BREAK THE SABBATH. THIS IS THE EXEPTION TO THIS RULE.

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

SHALOM

Friend of I AM
Aug 16th 2008, 06:32 PM
Well, He did break it. But He wasn't wrong to do so. John felt comfortable saying He broke it. Jesus felt comfortable saying David did what was unlawful. Jesus also felt comfortable saying the priests desecrated the day. But all 3 parties were innocent. They didn't 'break' it in a way offensive to God. In fact, the way that they broke it was 'pleasing' to God. It's not so much that He's 'OK' b/c He can do 'what He wants,' but rather that He did what His Father wanted (mercy over sacrifice).

It's akin to an ambulance 'breaking' the speed limit. Are they breaking it? Yes. Are they right to do so? Yes. B/c the speed limit law is trumped by the law of mercy.

Hey Matthew,

Remember Genesis states that God "rested" on the 7th day, thus there was nothing to break. John felt comfortable saying it, because he like Jesus knew that the "sabbath was made for man" and was meant for a day of rest.

The Pharisees took the concept of rest to the extreme and had filled the Sabbath with all kinds of weird man-made ordinances. They were teaching to people that you can't do anything on the Sabbath, even when it entailed helping out others. So basically they had created their own version of Sabbath which wasn't in line with God's Word.

Emanate
Aug 16th 2008, 07:19 PM
"Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EXORTS US DIRECTLY TO KEEP THE SABBATH OR WARNS DIRECTLY THOSE THAT BREAK THE SABBATH. THIS IS THE EXEPTION TO THIS RULE."



True, yet misguided observation. Sabbath is mentioned in over 50 verses in the NT. It repeatedly states that Y'shua observed sabbath "as was his custom". There are even more instances where Paul observed sabbath "as was his custom". There are even places where it mention Gentiles being in the synagagues on the sabbath. So perhaps what you are suggesting is that we disregard the actions of Y'shua and his disciples, and even Paul when adressing biblical issues? I would disagree and say that we are indeed to follow their example.

I Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

a few verses to follow:

Mark 1:21
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 6:2
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Luke 6:6
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God..... For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Friend of I AM
Aug 16th 2008, 07:35 PM
Good points. If one wants to get really technical about it though, we can actually make the argument that Yshua hasn't rested as of yet...and that the actual sabbath day Yshua was referring to hasn't been observed. Thus, Yshua did not break any of his laws, as he hadn't oberved any rest as of yet. We see this to be the case when we look at Hebrews...

Hebrews 4:1-13


Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, God again set a certain day, calling it "Today." This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for those who enter God's rest also rest from their own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


We also see this to be the case, when Yshua states the following to the Jews..

John 5:16,17
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

So Jesus once again proved that the Pharisees had no idea what they were talking about in his testimonies. They thought that God could be bound by their man made ordinances, but God is above all things. There is no ordinance of man that dictates to him what he can do. Jesus is still working to this day, even on men's sabbath days..interceding on behalf of mankind for our continued grace and salvation. Thank God he isn't resting!!

In Christ,

Stephen

Ethnikos
Aug 16th 2008, 07:45 PM
There are even more instances where Paul observed sabbath "as was his custom".
There is another verse that I think illustrates that Paul kept the Sabbath.
Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.

Ethnikos
Aug 16th 2008, 07:58 PM
NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EXHORTS US DIRECTLY TO KEEP THE SABBATH OR WARNS DIRECTLY THOSE THAT BREAK THE SABBATH.
The Christians knew very well what the Sabbath was.
This is part of the genius of the Sabbath and how it is so effective.
Anyone who lived within an hours walk from a synagogue, anywhere in the word, would know what it was and who the God was that they were honoring.
All these exhortations against sin, in the Letters, were there because the people were failing in these areas and allowing immorality to creep into the community. Some people misused their freedom in the Gospel and needed to be shown where the line needs to be drawn.
Sabbath law is very well defined and established.
Paul did not have to step in to make correction because any Jew alive could do that.

Friend of I AM
Aug 16th 2008, 08:00 PM
I think the point being made is that both Paul and Yshua did what was customary at times, to help edify the body of believers to whom they were presenting the Gospel too. Still they were not obligated to do so...Paul states this in his epistles...

1 Corinthians 9:22
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul did what was customary, as did Jesus to help out those who were weak in faith..and bring others to salvation in Christ. Based on the verse above, I'm sure there were times when Paul didn't observe sabbath either, and just simply rested. We are no longer obligated to follow Sabbath in the same way that the Jews kept it, and Paul even goes on to state this in Collassions 2:16 and Romans 14:5-7. However, if one does still want to keep it in accordance with the Mosaic Law then they are more than welcome to.

Emanate
Aug 16th 2008, 08:27 PM
Isa 58:13,14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Friend of I AM
Aug 16th 2008, 08:39 PM
Isa 58:13,14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.




Hey Emanate. I don't want to go back and forth regarding this issue with you. My only desire is to show you that just because you believe that it is good and edifying to keep the sabbath and other jewish customs, doesn't necessarily mean that every one is under similar obligation to do so. Here are the verses which testify to what I've stated...

Collassions 2:18-31
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

In going forward regarding our walk, I think ideally we should try to present scripture in a balanced way, in order to not make those with weak consciences feel condemned by what our own faith allows us to do i Christ. That being said there are many verses we can post to support our positions, but there is only one thing that will truly edify either of our testimonies..that being love. God bless in Christ and continue doing what you believe God has called you to do in your walk.

Ethnikos
Aug 16th 2008, 08:46 PM
We are no longer obligated to follow Sabbath in the same way that the Jews kept it, and Paul even goes on to state this in Collassions 2:16 and Romans 14:5-7. However, if one does still want to keep it in accordance with the Mosaic Law then they are more than welcome to.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Here is one of the verses you gave. There is an explanation or summary that comes later.
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
Paul is not telling anyone to stop eating and drinking but to not worry about a bunch of man-made rules telling you how to do it.
Some people were trying to make the Sabbath into some sort of fast day. In the Law, there were days that people were to fast and some where you were supposed to feast. Paul would have felt that all those rules placed on the Sabbath were an unnecessary burden.

Friend of I AM
Aug 16th 2008, 08:56 PM
Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Here is one of the verses you gave. There is an explanation or summary that comes later.
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
Paul is not telling anyone to stop eating and drinking but to not worry about a bunch of man-made rules telling you how to do it.
Some people were trying to make the Sabbath into some sort of fast day. In the Law, there were days that people were to fast and some where you were supposed to feast. Paul would have felt that all those rules placed on the Sabbath were an unnecessary burden.

Then why does he state the following...

Romans 14:1-13
The Weak and the Strong

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

That being stated, if I have inadvertently imposed any stumbling block upon you with my testimony..I sincerely apologize as that was not my intention. We should go forward spiritually as oppossed to the ways of the flesh, with the hopes that all will come to edification/salvation in Christ. God bless.

In Christ,

Stephen

Ethnikos
Aug 16th 2008, 09:32 PM
Then why does he state the following...

Jump forward a little and Paul explains himself, again.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Christians were having problems dealing with even the short list of things not to do, as given by the church in Jerusalem. They were told not to eat meat from animals offered to idols. Paul had to walk a fine line to not appear to be in rebellion against the church leadership.
Paul said basically, "figure it out for yourself but for me, idols are nothing."
Now someone who wanted to be holier-than-thou would go to the other extreme from Paul and extend the idol principle to cover pagan holidays. "How dare you observe a day dedicated to a false God!" So Paul was not discussing something pure, like the Sabbath, but things that some thought would defile them.

Ethnikos
Aug 16th 2008, 09:49 PM
That being stated, if I have inadvertently imposed any stumbling block upon you with my testimony..I sincerely apologize as that was not my intention. We should go forward spiritually as oppossed to the ways of the flesh, with the hopes that all will come to edification/salvation in Christ. God bless.

In Christ,

Stephen
I hope, not just you, but anyone teaching against God's sacred day think about what flimsy arguments you are standing on.
I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist and led by evangelicals to cast the Sabbath off as un-necessary. I know, inside and out, every argument for either side.
How well would these hold up if you were standing before God.
Do you negate the Life and death of our Christ by following the commandment of his father? We are not going to save ourselves by our own works. How you keep this day is less important than the question if God has a right to demand it of us.
"Remember that day that has always been sacred, that your slavery in Egypt has made you forget.", God says.

Firstfruits
Aug 16th 2008, 10:32 PM
According to the following the disciples were expected to keep the law of Moses, however their reply was this; Acts 15:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The disciples were not compelled to keep the law of Moses, and neither the disciples nor the Holy spirit commanded us to do so; Acts 15:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

So does the fact that we are in Christ therefore exempt us from the law of Moses as were they?

Firstfruits

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 03:11 AM
I think most Christians find themselves in a dilemma while trying to reconcile their belief that God is just and has a fair system of measuring evil and at the same time believe that that same measuring system has been done away with.
I mostly go along with the concept of sanctification that came out of the Protestant Reformation.
It has definitions that contain two concepts, one being about the believer becoming a better person, and the other, that believers are set apart and consecrated for a higher purpose in life.
The old Law does not have to be abolished in order for this system to go into effect.
It runs parallel to the old, but supersedes the old, and while we remain in this sanctification system, we are not subject to the rules of the old, but to the requirements of the state of being consecrated.
This is how I deal with this dilemma; that we are free to go ahead and follow as many of the Laws of God that we can bare and at the same time not judge people who have not gotten to the same point we have.
Our goal is not to see how many people can advance to our level in this system, but to get as many people as possible into the system.
It makes sense to me.

Emanate
Aug 17th 2008, 04:14 AM
Scripture is not Jewish Custom. Scripture is God's Word.

manichunter
Aug 17th 2008, 04:33 AM
Jesus admitted that he had worked on the Sabbath, so why was it alright for Jesus to work on the Sabbath?

Jn 5:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The things that Jesus did were the works of God; Jn 5:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Firstfruits

The was to be no servile/occupational work on Sabbath.

manichunter
Aug 17th 2008, 04:35 AM
I am going to take a position contrary to everyone else. I believe that Jesus probably did indeed violate the Sabbath with a very specific intent in mind - to do away with the symbols that endorsed the idea that the Jews alone were heirs to the covenant promises. As we know from Romans, this is certainly not the case - Paul argues that "true" Israel is constituted by both Jews and Gentiles.

So while Torah, and especially the bits like the Sabbath law, had their "time and place", Jesus intentionally breaks Torah to say, like Paul does in his epistles - the "dividing line" between Jew and Gentile - namely the Torah - has been "retired" (although it still lives on, but in a sense that does not entail keeping the Sabbath - but that's another debate).

So, against what others have written, I will assert that Jesus challenge to the Sabbath was not so much directed against legalism as it was directed against Jewish nationalism - the view that Jews have an "inside track" on salvation.

Now I am not unaware of at least one text - Exodus 31:16 that seems to establish the Sabbath forever. Here is a rendering of this verse according to the Net Bible:

The Israelites must keep the Sabbath by observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant

I would submit that we can legitimately read this as "the Sabbath must be kept as long as Israel as a nation exists". I will suggest that for intents and purposes, Israel as a nation "fulfilled its purpose" on the cross. So, yes, I believe that at the cross, God entirely did away with the "chosen-ness" of national Israel. All the Israel-specific promises are, as Paul says, "'yes' in Christ".

I am also open to another view about the Sabbath and Jesus that I will not go into in this post. But, just to stir the pot, I do not believe that the mainstream interpretation - that Jesus violated a "legalistic" distortion of the Sabbath law - is correct. I think that His statements in Matthew 12 make that clear.

Then Jesus did not fulfill Torah and He sinned. He was to fulfill the torah for us in order to be sinless and perfect sacrifice.

How about we all stop being haters. Those that have discovered the spiritual relevancy and memorial of the Sabbath in spirit and by the Spirit, should not reject or talk down on their brother who does not respect and honor the Sabbath. Those that do consider the Sabbath as a day of proper worship should not reject or talk down on their brother who does consider the Sabbath a holy convocation. This get us no where as far unity is concern.

One thing to note is the number of Sabbath observers are sure to grow for a great many of reasons. Theological arguements against the Sabbath will not stop this trend because I believe it is one of the signs of the end time. I will not go into detail for I endeavor to be an observer as well. I am not crazy or support any denomination beliefs or organizations. I simply came to the knowledge of the relevance and importance of Sabbath through years of Study. I am actually mad at myself that it took so long.

We should just all sit back and see what God does as the wise Gameliel said regarding the Apostle being of God or not. Despite the theological beliefs of the then Sanhedrin, the Gospel was of God and it outlasted them. So, maybe this is any empass of the Chruch to either resist or wait and see. It probaly want be something that will not truly know until God tells most of face to face in heaven. I can only hear Him say either why did you not remain faithful and obedient in keeping my commandment of Sabbath; or, why did you return to a dead work that was outside of my grace. I have simply decided to error on the side of caution from most prospective, but to me it is now a spiritual conviction that one day overrided my theological belief.

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 07:00 AM
Then Jesus did not fulfill Torah and He sinned. He was to fulfill the torah for us in order to be sinless and perfect sacrifice.
John1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

I think we may be getting carried away with this concept of Jesus carrying out the Torah Law. Clearly, the “fulfilling the Law” thing was about fulfilling the things spoken about him in the scripture.

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 10:11 AM
Scripture is not Jewish Custom. Scripture is God's Word.

Greetings Emanate,

Has the commandment regarding the Sabbath that God gave changed, according to what God commanded?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Is what God commanded applicable today?

What is it that is being taught to be obeyed concerning the Sabbath?

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 11:34 AM
Greetings Emanate,

Has the commandment regarding the Sabbath that God gave changed, according to what God commanded?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Is what God commanded applicable today?

What is it that is being taught to be obeyed concerning the Sabbath?

Firstfruits
Do you understand the difference between living in a free society and living in a theocracy? It's not our job to go around and kill people who's religion (or lack therof) we find straying form God's Word. todd

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 11:39 AM
Then Jesus did not fulfill Torah and He sinned. He was to fulfill the torah for us in order to be sinless and perfect sacrifice.
The idea that Jesus was a lawbreaker disqualifies Him from being our sinless sacrifice. Sad that anyone would project their own mindset onto Him. todd

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 12:16 PM
Do you understand the difference between living in a free society and living in a theocracy? It's not our job to go around and kill people who's religion (or lack therof) we find straying form God's Word. todd

Are you saying then that the commandment God gave concerning the Sabbath no longer applies, as we cannot keep it as God gave it?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So is it all or nothing?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 12:18 PM
The idea that Jesus was a lawbreaker disqualifies Him from being our sinless sacrifice. Sad that anyone would project their own mindset onto Him. todd

I can assure you that Jesus did not break the law as it stood, but that's for later.

God bless,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 12:25 PM
Do you understand the difference between living in a free society and living in a theocracy? It's not our job to go around and kill people who's religion (or lack therof) we find straying form God's Word. todd

According to Gods law it is our responsibility.

Num 15:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=4&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=4&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Unless the law no longer stands.

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 12:51 PM
Are you saying then that the commandment God gave concerning the Sabbath no longer applies, as we cannot keep it as God gave it?

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So is it all or nothing?

Firstfruits Everything applies within the situation in which it's given. We don't live in a theocracy so we don't go around killing those who don't do well on our doctrinal checklist. todd

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 12:53 PM
I can assure you that Jesus did not break the law as it stood, but that's for later.

God bless,

Firstfruits Correct. Jesus lived out, in life, the instructions He had given at Sinai. todd

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 02:43 PM
Everything applies within the situation in which it's given. We don't live in a theocracy so we don't go around killing those who don't do well on our doctrinal checklist. todd


Thanks Vallybldr,

I agree with you, but unless God has changed his law then if we are to keep it it must be as God gave it.

Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Deut 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Again I say unless God has changed his law and we are expected to keep it, what God said must stand.

Firstfruits

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 03:39 PM
Has the commandment regarding the Sabbath that God gave changed, according to what God commanded?
Is what God commanded applicable today?
What is it that is being taught to be obeyed concerning the Sabbath?
Firstfruits
In John 7:22 Jesus brings up an example to support his actions on the Sabbath.
For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
In Exodus, something happened where Moses' son had to be circumcised to prevent Moses from being killed by God.
...that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death.
Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and threw it at Moses' feet, and she said, "You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me." So He let him alone...
This might not be the best example but it illustrates that circumcision can be considered a redemptive act, that would be permissible, on the Sabbath.
As for what has been changed, concerning the Law, is the "wall of enmity" between the Jews and gentiles, which is the "certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us". We need to recognize that we are all under this condemnation and should be joined together, through Christ by all being united with Christ.
As for what I think should be taught concerning the Sabbath, is that it existed before Moses and can be a memorial to the Father, just as the Lord's Supper can be a memorial to the Son.

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 03:51 PM
Thanks Vallybldr,
I agree with you, but unless God has changed his law then if we are to keep it it must be as God gave it.
Again I say unless God has changed his law and we are expected to keep it, what God said must stand.
Firstfruits
I would have to disagree with this. My disagreement would be based on the ideas I mentioned in my last post.
I believe that the Sabbath existed before Moses and did not have so many regulations attached to it. We can observe this day as a commemoration of creation without putting ourselves under subjection to the Mosaic Law.

Friend of I AM
Aug 17th 2008, 04:29 PM
Scripture is not Jewish Custom. Scripture is God's Word.

Then why does the Word make reference to certain aspects of the Mosiac law as being customary...

Acts 6:9-6:14
Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God. And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

Friend of I AM
Aug 17th 2008, 04:53 PM
I hope, not just you, but anyone teaching against God's sacred day think about what flimsy arguments you are standing on.
I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist and led by evangelicals to cast the Sabbath off as un-necessary. I know, inside and out, every argument for either side.
How well would these hold up if you were standing before God.
Do you negate the Life and death of our Christ by following the commandment of his father? We are not going to save ourselves by our own works. How you keep this day is less important than the question if God has a right to demand it of us.
"Remember that day that has always been sacred, that your slavery in Egypt has made you forget.", God says.

I thank God that Christ has set me free from being bonded to slavery to fulfill that which I could not fulfill. Thus, I will continue to do what I believe is right based on the scriptures/testimonies I've given. You do the same. Neither of us know how God will judge the either in the end, thus it is rather fruitless to even bring up such discussion. God bless in Christ.

Stephen

Ethnikos
Aug 17th 2008, 05:33 PM
I thank God that Christ has set me free from being bonded to slavery to fulfill that which I could not fulfill. Thus, I will continue to do what I believe is right based on the scriptures/testimonies I've given. You do the same. Neither of us know how God will judge the either in the end, thus it is rather fruitless to even bring up such discussion. God bless in Christ.

Stephen
I was trying to deflect this rant away from you, directly, and God bless you,too.
I do not know you, and it was convenient to use your post to work from.
Please do not take this personally.
I meant this as a general statement about some arguments being rather transparent, even to me who has been swayed one way and another.
Just be careful.

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 05:59 PM
In John 7:22 Jesus brings up an example to support his actions on the Sabbath.
For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
In Exodus, something happened where Moses' son had to be circumcised to prevent Moses from being killed by God.
...that the LORD met him and sought to put him to death.
Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and threw it at Moses' feet, and she said, "You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me." So He let him alone...
This might not be the best example but it illustrates that circumcision can be considered a redemptive act, that would be permissible, on the Sabbath.
As for what has been changed, concerning the Law, is the "wall of enmity" between the Jews and gentiles, which is the "certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us". We need to recognize that we are all under this condemnation and should be joined together, through Christ by all being united with Christ.
As for what I think should be taught concerning the Sabbath, is that it existed before Moses and can be a memorial to the Father, just as the Lord's Supper can be a memorial to the Son.

With what God has commanded are we in Gods will if we only obey part of what he has commanded?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Unless God has changed his law does the following apply to the Sabbath?
Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deut 12:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:01 PM
John1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

I think we may be getting carried away with this concept of Jesus carrying out the Torah Law. Clearly, the “fulfilling the Law” thing was about fulfilling the things spoken about him in the scripture.

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

I agree with you 100%

Firstfruits

Christian dog love
Aug 17th 2008, 06:03 PM
when Jesus came the laws that applied to the Satbath day no long did as far as like accual LAWS like you can't do this on this day of the week. Really the Satbath can be on any day I mean it doesn't HAVE to be Sunday.

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:06 PM
when Jesus came the laws that applied to the Satbath day no long did as far as like accual LAWS like you can't do this on this day of the week. Really the Satbath can be on any day I mean it doesn't HAVE to be Sunday.

So does that mean we do not have to obey God as he has commanded us regarding the Sabbath?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:31 PM
I hope, not just you, but anyone teaching against God's sacred day think about what flimsy arguments you are standing on.
I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist and led by evangelicals to cast the Sabbath off as un-necessary. I know, inside and out, every argument for either side.
How well would these hold up if you were standing before God.
Do you negate the Life and death of our Christ by following the commandment of his father? We are not going to save ourselves by our own works. How you keep this day is less important than the question if God has a right to demand it of us.
"Remember that day that has always been sacred, that your slavery in Egypt has made you forget.", God says.

Do you therefore stand by Gods commandment as he gave it? You see it is not that we are against the Sabbath but can you truly say you can keep it as God gave it?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 07:29 PM
Depending on what the teachers of the law taught, who's teaching did Jesus and the apostle break?

Lk 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Lk 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Jn 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

Jn 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Firstfruits

matthew94
Aug 17th 2008, 08:03 PM
Did David do what was unlawful? (when his men ate the ceremonial bread)
Do the priests desecrate the day?
Did Jesus break the Sabbath?

The answer to all 3 is 'yes' (in a sense) and 'no' (in another sense)

It was against the rules for David's men (since they weren't priests) to eat the ceremonial bread. It was a real rule. They really did do what was unlawful. But were they wrong to do so? Of course not. Mercy (feeding the hungry) trumps sacrifice (ceremonial ritual). It is wrong to work on the Sabbath. That's a real rule. The priests really do work on the Sabbath. Inasmuch, they desecrate the day by breaking the rule. But are they wrong to do so? Of course not. The moral (obeying God) trumps sacrifice (7th day Sabbath observance). Jesus really did allow His disciples to work (in a sense) to get food on the Sabbath. Was He wrong to do so? Of course not. John felt comfortable describing Jesus' actions as breaking the Sabbath, but he knew it wasn't being broken in any meaningful way. It would have been WRONG for Jesus to have kept the Sabbath at the expense of mercy (moral law). This, of course, in no way disqualifies Jesus for the role of redeemer.

John146
Aug 18th 2008, 08:27 PM
I think we are in agreement. I just, perhaps, feel more at ease at saying that He 'broke' the Sabbath and then clarifying that He didn't do so in a sinful way (but, indeed, in a righteous way).After reviewing this thread again, I should have just agreed with you after you said the following and we wouldn't have had the confusion:


He kept it the way it was supposed to be kept, ceremonially. When a moral good and a ceremonial ritual butted heads, He always allowed the moral to trump the ceremonial because God desires mercy (moral) over sacrifice (ceremonial).

Yes, I agree. <--response I should have posted earlier. ;)

BroRog
Aug 18th 2008, 08:57 PM
Jesus and the Apostles kept the Sabbath according to the Law. But Jesus challenged the piety of those who wouldn't allow someone to be healed on Sabbath. Where was their heart and head?

Emanate
Aug 18th 2008, 09:15 PM
Friend,

"customs that Moses delivered to us. " In Judaism it is called "Torah She'bal Peh" or Oral Torah. It is a rabbinic teaching that many oral laws were actually given from God to Moses and then to Israel. This concept also teaches "“lo bashamayim hi” or it is not in heaven. This means that the Torah is no longer in heaven and gives the rabbis the right to decide more oral laws, even if it means going against the written word or a voice from heaven. It is these customs that Y'shua was definitely against. Jewish Custom does not equal God's Law. If you will notice the size of the Old Testament compared to the volumes of the Talmud. In Rabbinic thought, Talmud is more important than Written Torah. So, yes, Y'shua was against their customs.

Firstfruits
Aug 18th 2008, 10:47 PM
Friend,

"customs that Moses delivered to us. " In Judaism it is called "Torah She'bal Peh" or Oral Torah. It is a rabbinic teaching that many oral laws were actually given from God to Moses and then to Israel. This concept also teaches "“lo bashamayim hi” or it is not in heaven. This means that the Torah is no longer in heaven and gives the rabbis the right to decide more oral laws, even if it means going against the written word or a voice from heaven. It is these customs that Y'shua was definitely against. Jewish Custom does not equal God's Law. If you will notice the size of the Old Testament compared to the volumes of the Talmud. In Rabbinic thought, Talmud is more important than Written Torah. So, yes, Y'shua was against their customs.

Hi Emanate,

You have hit the nail on the head as to why Jesus did not break Gods law, I am at camp at the moment soI will get back to you as soon as possible.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:20 PM
when Jesus came the laws that applied to the Sabbath day no long did as far as like actual LAWS like you can't do this on this day of the week. Really the Sabbath can be on any day I mean it doesn't HAVE to be Sunday.

Why did Gods actual laws not apply?

Firstfruits