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Cynthia
Aug 15th 2008, 05:22 PM
God tells us to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. What does that mean exactly? How are we to remember it? How do you keep it Holy?

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 05:35 PM
The Sabbath was a ceremonial law given to the Jews in the Old Covenant. By the term 'ceremonial' I mean that it was a foreshadowing of the 'rest' that we experience in peace with God through Jesus Christ. In the Old Covenant, keeping the Sabbath included the following...

1. It was a command to keep Saturday separate
2. It was a sign of God’s covenant with Israel
3. It was a day to abstain from all work & money
4. It was a day to assemble together for worship
5. It was a day of special ritual & animal sacrifices
6. The penalty for disobedience was death

Unfortunately, many Jewish people didn't keep the Sabbath holy. It became an empty shell for the most part. They didn't keep the shadow and, so, they didn't recognize the fulfillment (Jesus & His ministry) when it arrived.

When Jesus came, He did not give a direct teaching regarding Sabbath observance, but He did consistently bring the issue to the table by allowing His disciples to trump the Sabbath (ceremonial) Law with moral practice (such as mercy). Jesus argued that it was sometimes common sense to break the Sabbath in this way (trumping it with moral good). Jesus made it clear that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law, not a moral law and argued that God prefers morality over ritual (obviously).

The early church understood Jesus' teachings regarding the Sabbath. They came to the conclusion that Christians were not under Old Testament Law and, especially, Gentiles should not be burdened by it. Paul knew that many Jewish Christians would continue to observe the Sabbath Law, but seems to imply that such is the ‘weaker’ position. Paul also knew that many Gentile Christians would see no need for observing the Sabbath Law, and implies that such is the ‘stronger’ position. He taught that each believer should be led by the Lord on this issue and that no Christian should judge another on this matter. Instead, we should show respect toward various practices. Paul teaches that the Sabbath was merely a ceremonial shadow that was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The author of Hebrews teaches that the fulfillment of the shadow is the peace we experience in Jesus Christ. The 1st & 2nd generation of Christians believed we now experience a perpetual Sabbath. Early Christians met daily, but met specially on Sunday’s to celebrate the day of the resurrection.

So there are 3 positions Christians sometimes take regarding the Sabbath.

View #1 Sabbath as Commanded (Permanent)
Those with this view mistakenly believe the Sabbath was a moral law instead of a ceremonial law. If they were correct in this belief, they'd be perfectly right to continue keeping a Saturday Sabbath as commanded in the OT.

View #2 Sabbath as Changed (Pliable)
Some argue that the Sabbath was switched from Saturday to Sunday. While it is true that the early Christians celebrated the Lord's resurrection on Sunday's, there is really no biblical argument that Sunday replaced Saturday as the Sabbath.

View #3 Sabbath as Completed (Perpetual)
In my opinion, the biblical view is that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law fulfilled by the work of Jesus Christ. Through His work, He elevated the other 6 days to the sacred level of Sabbath so that now we celebrate a perpetual Sabbath. We view 'every day as alike'. It's a perpetual Sabbath celebration (resting from works based righteousness). We may celebrate the resurrection on Sunday and we may take Saturday off to rest our bodies, but there is no obligation to do either. We are free.

Lighthope
Aug 15th 2008, 05:45 PM
Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath.

It is a day of rest. God thought it so important, it is Number Four on the Big List of Things To Do. (Fourth Commandment for those who don't get the joke. :bounce: )

Look at us, we work ourselves to death. Some people work 80 hours a week. Those who only work 40 come home and work some more. Work work work. We're burning out.

God says we need to relax.

One day a week (5 PM Friday to 5 PM Saturday for me) I do no work. Nothing. I don't wash dishes, I don't take out the garbage, zip. If I think it's work, no matter how petty, I won't do it during that time. I don't even think about work. (Being a writer, it's always easy to be writing...even in your mind. To avoid it is difficult.)

And it has done wonders for me! No more stress or anxiety. Nothing is so important it can't wait until Saturday evening. (I feed the dogs of course.)

Believe me, God knew what he was doing when he told us to take a day off. I don't understand why people think they know better than God and continue to work when God tells them to rest a day. Makes no sense.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - It is easy to be brave from a distance.

Cynthia
Aug 15th 2008, 06:07 PM
At this time in my life I am lucky because I don't have to work on weekends or holidays, but in my earlier jobs I had to work on the weekends. I went to college full time and worked full time. Does this mean I broke one of the commandments? I also didn't have time to go to Church becuse I worked Sat evening and Sun mornings.
How does one go about keeping the Sabbath Holy? I can remember the Sabbath the day....Sat or Sun depending on your perspective...but I do work around the house, go to the grocery store, hardware store, and enjoy leisure time on the weekends. Does this mean I am not keeping hte Sabbath Holy? I just feel that when GOd said remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy he meant something more than just a day of rest.

drew
Aug 15th 2008, 06:21 PM
View #3 Sabbath as Completed (Perpetual)
In my opinion, the biblical view is that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law fulfilled by the work of Jesus Christ. Through His work, He elevated the other 6 days to the sacred level of Sabbath so that now we celebrate a perpetual Sabbath. We view 'every day as alike'. It's a perpetual Sabbath celebration (resting from works based righteousness). We may celebrate the resurrection on Sunday and we may take Saturday off to rest our bodies, but there is no obligation to do either. We are free.
I agree with you on this matter. However, and with reference to the entirety of your post, do you not think that Jesus intentionally violated the Sabbath to underscore that Torah, in its specific function of marking out the Jews as covenant heirs, has come to an end?

matthew94
Aug 15th 2008, 06:36 PM
I agree with you on this matter. However, and with reference to the entirety of your post, do you not think that Jesus intentionally violated the Sabbath to underscore that Torah, in its specific function of marking out the Jews as covenant heirs, has come to an end?

I think He intentionally trumped the Sabbath (a ceremonial law) with mercy (a moral law) and that one of the purposes for doing such was to show the Jewish leadership that they had missed the whole point of the ceremonial law.

Firstfruits
Aug 15th 2008, 07:00 PM
God tells us to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. What does that mean exactly? How are we to remember it? How do you keep it Holy?

This is the law of the Sabbath.

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Since it is perpetual, it cannot be changed.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 15th 2008, 07:35 PM
Is a day of rest not the epitome of mercy?

manichunter
Aug 15th 2008, 09:49 PM
The Sabbath is not a Saturday, but Friday and Saturday event.

valleybldr
Aug 16th 2008, 01:25 AM
The early church understood Jesus' teachings regarding the Sabbath. They came to the conclusion that Christians were not under Old Testament Law and, especially, Gentiles should not be burdened by it. Most who keep Shabbat see it as a joy so they won't understand or agree with others (not keeping Shabbat) who see it as a burden. todd

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 01:38 AM
Most who keep Shabbat see it as a joy so they won't understand or agree with others (not keeping Shabbat) who see it as a burden. todd

But the begging question is this – must a Christian “keep” the seventh day holy as the Jews were required to do? Do those who teach “Sabbath keeping” today commit the same error committed by the Judaizers in the first century of requiring Christians to go back under “yoke of bondage” found in the shadows of Judaism? The truth is we have freedom in Christ Jesus – “day-keeping” is not part of the gospel of grace – don’t let those who teach Sabbath-keeping reduce you to the “bondage” of the “old law” that was nailed to the cross of Christ – never to be binding on His people again – stand fast in your freedom…
”Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5:1

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

valleybldr
Aug 16th 2008, 01:57 AM
”Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5:1


But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11
I don't view God's loving instructions as "bondage" but I understand and accept that some do. todd

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 02:12 AM
I don't view God's loving instructions as "bondage" but I understand and accept that some do. todd

Do you understand and accept that Paul and the other NT writers considered a return to the shadows of Judaism to be bondage and spoke harshly against those who taught such error?

livingwaters
Aug 16th 2008, 04:30 AM
Keep the Sabbath. We all need a day just to reflect on the Word of God...We put too many other things ahead of our prayer life.Amen!!!

God said, HE meant it. He is not a man that HE should lie???!!!!~~~~:pp

manichunter
Aug 16th 2008, 05:20 AM
But the begging question is this – must a Christian “keep” the seventh day holy as the Jews were required to do? Do those who teach “Sabbath keeping” today commit the same error committed by the Judaizers in the first century of requiring Christians to go back under “yoke of bondage” found in the shadows of Judaism? The truth is we have freedom in Christ Jesus – “day-keeping” is not part of the gospel of grace – don’t let those who teach Sabbath-keeping reduce you to the “bondage” of the “old law” that was nailed to the cross of Christ – never to be binding on His people again – stand fast in your freedom…

”Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5:1

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11



The same could be said for Sunday which is the official day of collective worship for most believers. Have you instituted a day that is a burden, no is your answer. What is forgot to be said is that Sunday is never sanctioned in the Scripture as the day of collectively assembly, expectly the Scripture most people quote. The never ask why Paul commanded them to work on the first day. Maybe because they were not suppose to do so on the previous day.

matthew94
Aug 16th 2008, 05:35 AM
Most who keep Shabbat see it as a joy so they won't understand or agree with others (not keeping Shabbat) who see it as a burden. todd


I did not mean, of course, burdened by the activity. I meant burdened by the legalism. In other words, the early Christians did not consider the gentiles to be 'wrong' if they did not practice Sabbath observance (since it was merely a ceremonial shadow of what had since come to fruition). And so they didn't command gentile believers to keep the Sabbath law.

crossnote
Aug 16th 2008, 05:47 AM
God tells us to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. What does that mean exactly? How are we to remember it? How do you keep it Holy?


This predates Judaism and reaches back to Creation which means it applies to all mankind.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(Gen 2:2)

God has now made a new Creation in Christ. Christ has labored and calls all men unto Himself to rest in His works and cease from their own.

For we, the ones believing, enter into the rest, even as He said, "As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter into My rest," though the works had come into being from the foundation of the world. LXX-Psa. 94:11; MT-Psa. 95:11
(Heb 4:3)
For he entering into His rest, he himself also rested from his works, as God had rested from His own. LXX-Psa. 95:11; Gen. 2:2
(Heb 4:10)

valleybldr
Aug 16th 2008, 10:12 AM
I did not mean, of course, burdened by the activity. I meant burdened by the legalism. In other words, the early Christians did not consider the gentiles to be 'wrong' if they did not practice Sabbath observance (since it was merely a ceremonial shadow of what had since come to fruition). And so they didn't command gentile believers to keep the Sabbath law. There were always those who didn't feel compelled by what the "early Christians" commanded, they were going to follow God with a good consience (and often lost their lives for doing so). todd

valleybldr
Aug 16th 2008, 10:15 AM
This predates Judaism and reaches back to Creation which means it applies to all mankind.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(Gen 2:2)

God has now made a new Creation in Christ. Christ has labored and calls all men unto Himself to rest in His works and cease from their own.

For we, the ones believing, enter into the rest, even as He said, "As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter into My rest," though the works had come into being from the foundation of the world. LXX-Psa. 94:11; MT-Psa. 95:11
(Heb 4:3)
For he entering into His rest, he himself also rested from his works, as God had rested from His own. LXX-Psa. 95:11; Gen. 2:2
(Heb 4:10)
This indeed is the spiritual core of Shabbat. I also have a physical body that desperately needs rest and so health and communial benefits of Shabbat are a part of our (any one with a body in an obedient spiritual community) rest as well. todd

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 11:54 AM
The same could be said for Sunday which is the official day of collective worship for most believers. Have you instituted a day that is a burden, no is your answer. What is forgot to be said is that Sunday is never sanctioned in the Scripture as the day of collectively assembly, expectly the Scripture most people quote. The never ask why Paul commanded them to work on the first day. Maybe because they were not suppose to do so on the previous day.
Sunday – the Lord’s Day - is not the “Christian Sabbath” if that is what you are suggesting – there is no such animal. The apostolic church meet on that day of the week to celebrate the resurrection of Christ and to partake of the Lord’s Supper among other things because that is the day Jesus Christ arose from the grave. The Sabbath was given only the Jews - no one else. The Patriarchs were not required to keep it, no Gentile was ever commanded to keep that day and Christians today are under no legal requirement to “keep” that day or any day - …"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals.”
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

Firstfruits
Aug 16th 2008, 03:56 PM
Sunday – the Lord’s Day - is not the “Christian Sabbath” if that is what you are suggesting – there is no such animal. The apostolic church meet on that day of the week to celebrate the resurrection of Christ and to partake of the Lord’s Supper among other things because that is the day Jesus Christ arose from the grave. The Sabbath was given only the Jews - no one else. The Patriarchs were not required to keep it, no Gentile was ever commanded to keep that day and Christians today are under no legal requirement to “keep” that day or any day - …"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals.”

The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church


I agree Losthorizon,

What I cannot understand is those that are compelled to keep the Sabbath do not keep it as God commanded it to be kept, so if it is not kept according to the will of God then where is the justification in keeping it?

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2008, 06:40 PM
Most who keep Shabbat see it as a joy so they won't understand or agree with others (not keeping Shabbat) who see it as a burden. todd

Amein to that!!:)

It is not kept because it is law, but as an act of love and enjoying His grace :)

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 07:54 PM
Amein to that!!:)

It is not kept because it is law, but as an act of love and enjoying His grace :)
The Jews were obligated by Law to keep the Sabbath day holy - "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8) – ie – it was not optional. Are you saying that Christians today are bound by the Ten Commandment Law to keep the Sabbath just as the Jews were obligated or are you saying a Christian can observe that day if she chooses (no obligation)?

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 07:58 PM
I agree Losthorizon,

What I cannot understand is those that are compelled to keep the Sabbath do not keep it as God commanded it to be kept, so if it is not kept according to the will of God then where is the justification in keeping it?

Firstfruits
Good point – Paul told those who wanted to keep part of the old shadow of Judaism that they were under obligation to keep the whole Law.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. Galatians 5:3

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2008, 08:12 PM
The Jews were obligated by Law to keep the Sabbath day holy - "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Ex 20:8) – ie – it was not optional. Are you saying that Christians today are bound by the Ten Commandment Law to keep the Sabbath just as the Jews were obligated or are you saying a Christian can observe that day if she chooses (no obligation)?keeping the Sabbath does not score me any points.... I do not keep the Sabbath to be a Christian, it is because I love G_d that I do ;)

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 08:13 PM
Christ is our only sabbath(rest) now.

Romans 14:1-6, Paul addresses that Christians are not to judge one another on the value of celebration days or what day they celebrate Christ on. The day is not important, the celebration of Christ is.

Colossians 2:16-17 states clearly that Christ is now the sabbath. Not any day of the week, but Christ alone.

Hebrews chapter 8 addresses Christ as the high priest of a new covenant.

Hebrews chapter 4 states that God sets the sabbath on a new day, and God called it today(verse 7). In other words, every day is the sabbath day if you are in Christ.

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 08:15 PM
keeping the Sabbath does not score me any points.... I do not keep the Sabbath to be a Christian, it is because I love G_d that I do ;)
But you didn't answer my question - we are not discussing a score card. Let me repeat the simple question - are Christians today bound by the Ten Commandment Law to keep the Sabbath just as the Jews were obligated to keep that day?

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 08:19 PM
are Christians today bound by the Ten Commandment Law to keep the Sabbath just as the Jews were obligated to keep that day?

Read my post above for the answer.

losthorizon
Aug 16th 2008, 08:37 PM
Read my post above for the answer.
I read you post, Ron and agree that the “shadow-sabbath” is no longer obligatory to God’s people today and His people now have their rest “in Christ”.
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11)

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 08:53 PM
I read you post, Ron and agree that the “shadow-sabbath” is no longer obligatory to God’s people today and His people now have their rest “in Christ”.
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11)

Exactly. Our rest is in Christ alone, not any particular day of the week.

The day is not important, the celebration of Christ is.

BHS
Aug 16th 2008, 11:00 PM
Thank you Matthew for your post # 2 . Now I understand why it is so important to some Christians that Jesus “trumped” the sabbath law. Personally, I do not think so, because the sabbath law was never so inflexible that it did not allow for some contingencies, called in modern times “the ox in the ditch”.

Christopher J. H. Wright, a Christian OT scholar and non-messianic, quotes Elmer Martens in his exegesis of Leviticus 19, saying:

“One must conclude that the distinctions between cultic {ceremonial}, moral and civil regulations are, if not artificial, certainly extraneous to Hebrew thought. In this single speech the stipulations about refraining from image-making (cult), insisting on truth-telling (moral), and prescribing compassionate treatment for aliens (civil) tumble about in chaotic confusion. As a grid for sorting out the way Christians deal with Old Testament law, the classification of “cultic, moral, civil” is not helpful."

Trying to categorize the laws in neat categories is not very fruitful. There is an inadequacy of the “moral-civil” distinction. The so-called moral law reflects the permanent moral character of God, where as the so-called “civil law” was entirely contingent on Israel’s historical context. Clearly those laws that dealt with divorce, marriage, discipline of children, certain aspects of slavery – laws that were designed to protect the family and its land inheritance, would better fit into a category all its own, such as “family” law.

Regarding the Sabbath –

Paraphrasing Christopher Wright’s comments – the Sabbath day could be considered a form of employee protection and it is clear from the prophets that neglect of the Sabbath went along with blatant exploitation of the poor (Amos 8:4-6; Isaiah 58). The sabbath also served as humanitarian help.

The point was that you honored God by keeping a law that benefited your poorer neighbors. What appears to be a ceremonial law, becomes a basic moral law – one of serving God and caring for other people, the two being inseparably bound together. And this is the basis of Jesus' being able to help and heal others, even on the Sabbath without violating the Sabbath.

Blessings,
BHS

Emanate
Aug 17th 2008, 04:20 AM
How can one rest their entire being in Jesus if their heart is in enmity with resting one day as declared in the Word? How can one even understand rest in Jesus if they cannot rest a single day of the week?

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 10:19 AM
How can one rest their entire being in Jesus if their heart is in enmity with resting one day as declared in the Word? How can one even understand rest in Jesus if they cannot rest a single day of the week?

But it is not just the rest, it is all that goes with it that unless it has changed must be obeyed.

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

You are not only concerned with keeping the Sabbath yourself but you also have to ensure that those that do not keep the Sabbath are dealt with, if you are to be obedient to Gods law.

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 11:24 AM
You are not only concerned with keeping the Sabbath yourself but you also have to ensure that those that do not keep the Sabbath are dealt with, if you are to be obedient to Gods law.

Firstfruits The "administration of death" is over (at least for the present). Sabbath keepers, historically, have been the ones getting killed for their faith not the other way around. We do not live in a theocracy so there is no need to make an argument that Sabbath breakers " are [to be] dealt with." Nice emotional appeal with some distant ring of logic but totally unrealistic in the world we live in. However, you might consider Islam. todd

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 12:01 PM
But you didn't answer my question - we are not discussing a score card. Let me repeat the simple question - are Christians today bound by the Ten Commandment Law to keep the Sabbath just as the Jews were obligated to keep that day?
I can answer you with what todd said :::
Most who keep Shabbat see it as a joy so they won't understand or agree with others (not keeping Shabbat) who see it as a burden. todd So you see..... there are people who disagree on this :)
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 12:32 PM
The "administration of death" is over (at least for the present). Sabbath keepers, historically, have been the ones getting killed for their faith not the other way around. We do not live in a theocracy so there is no need to make an argument that Sabbath breakers " are [to be] dealt with." Nice emotional appeal with some distant ring of logic but totally unrealistic in the world we live in. However, you might consider Islam. todd

Can you please give the scriptures that say that the ministration of death is over? BTW I know that it is written that the ten commandment written on tables of stone is known as the ministration of death.

2 Cor 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 12:58 PM
Can you please give the scriptures that say that the ministration of death is over? BTW I know that it is written that the ten commandment written on tables of stone is known as the ministration of death.

2 Cor 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


Firstfruits It can only be done when there is a theocracy or a form of government that allows such. It is against the law to kill people who one does not agree with. "The law" (actually Torah = instruction) was given within a theocracy but plenty of people who want to live within God's will have found ways to apply it's principles in their particular situations. todd

talmidim
Aug 17th 2008, 01:23 PM
Hello again Cynthia,

Rather than argue the point, I thought it might be beneficial to just post a little context. And while some prefer to start their scripture reading on the Sabbath in Exodus 31, I think that we are better served by understanding where the Sabbath scriptures started - in Exodus 16 and Genesis.

In Exodus 16, and only one month out of Egypt, it was a time when the children of Israel murmured against Adonai for their perceived lack of bread. Yet we know they lacked for nothing. But the Lord in His eternal mercy, brought forth bread from heaven and a series of miracles that the bread would be fresh every day. For it would not keep overnight and like His mercy, would be renewed everyday - except for the Sabbath. On that day, the seventh day, it would keep. And therein lies a lesson unto itself. But I digress.

We know that He gave the Sabbath as a 'token' of His covenant with Moses and the children of Israel. But what was His reason for giving the Sabbath and the Bread in the manner that He did? We find the answer to that question in this chapter too. For it was the bread that was new, not the Sabbath. For we were made in His image. And we were forever to follow His example - including His example of resting on the 'seventh'.

This Sabbath instruction in Exodus was a forty year indoctrination. The children of Israel and the mixed multitude that followed with them, would collect the bread from heaven everyday except Sabbath. They would collect twice as much on the day that they were to prepare for Sabbath. And Sabbath, the seventh day, they were to rest even as He had done in His work in the creation. And we know that we were ever to follow His instruction and His example.

And what did He say when they failed to follow His instruction in these matters?
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Now I bolded the above to bring forth this one point: These events occurred long before the giving of the 'Law' at Sinai. So even if the 'Law' is done away with as so many of my brothers and sisters erroneously claim (not the ritual law of the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes which I agree have been dealt with), it still does not address the Sabbath, which was a part of His Commandments and Laws PRIOR to the Mosaic covenant 'Law', though included within.

STOP! Now before some of you start beating the 'Law vs Grace' drum, let me say that I do not think that Christians are bound to keep all the laws in Torah. For example and concerning the governance of the commonwealth of Israel, Romans 13 makes our place clear in our observance of civil authority. But I do think that Christian commentators have gravely misjudged the Ten Commandments. And most notably, the keeping of the command to observe the Sabbath rest in the manner that it was given - in Genesis and in Exodus.

And as some have rightly observed, there is no place in scripture where the Almighty has rescinded His command to observe the seventh day as the Sabbath. And since it is a 'perpetual commandment', to claim that He rescinded His own command would be a contradiction of His Word. Something He would not - and has not - ever done.

In His Love,
Phillip

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 02:04 PM
Phillip, I see you have the pictograph of Shabbath in your avatar, lets work it from there....

Shin
Beyt
Tav



Shin = Pictographic (form): The Ancient picture s is the two front teeth.
Mnemonic (meaning): Sharp, Press -- the function of the teeth; Cliff -- as a tooth; Ivory -- the tusks of the elephant, as teeth; Two, duplicate, repeat, double, second, again -- as the two front teeth

Beyt =Pictographic form :The Hebrew word beyt means "house" or "tent".
Mnemonic (meaning): Family -- the residents of the tent;
Inside -- the family that is inside the tent is of importance, not the structure itself.

Tav = Pictographic (form): The Ancient picture t is a type of "mark", probably of two sticks crossed to mark a place
similar to the Egyptian hieroglyph of , that is two crossed sticks.
Mnemonic (meaning): Mark, Sign, Signature, Identification -- as a marker to identify people, places or things; Room, Desert, Dwelling -- as marked




Now.... what does Shabat says according to the mnemonic of this word...???

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 02:49 PM
It can only be done when there is a theocracy or a form of government that allows such. It is against the law to kill people who one does not agree with. "The law" (actually Torah = instruction) was given within a theocracy but plenty of people who want to live within God's will have found ways to apply it's principles in their particular situations. todd

Are there no scriptures to show that God has changed his law, or his commandments?

Was it not God who gave this commandment according to his law?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 03:06 PM
Are there no scriptures to show that God has changed his law, or his commandments?

Was it not God who gave this commandment according to his law?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Firstfruits Go for it. Kill the Sabbath breakers. :B todd

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 03:17 PM
Go for it. Kill the Sabbath breakers. :B todd
Oh dear todd...... or shall we rename you :Todd the elocutionist :help:


:lol: :hug:

losthorizon
Aug 17th 2008, 03:34 PM
And as some have rightly observed, there is no place in scripture where the Almighty has rescinded His command to observe the seventh day as the Sabbath. And since it is a 'perpetual commandment', to claim that He rescinded His own command would be a contradiction of His Word. Something He would not - and has not - ever done.


The truth remains the truth and according to the Book the “the Mosaical law" in its entirety including the command to keep the Sabbath has been “abolished” (Eph 2:14-16); Christians are "not under the law” (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18); and Christians are “dead to the law” (Rom. 7:4). And why is this all true – because “Christ is the end of the law” (Rom. 10:4).
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances [the Mosaical Law]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby Eph 2:14-16 (KJV)The command to keep the seventh day holy was given only to the Jews – only those who were “slaves in the land of Egypt” it was never given to their fathers. God NEVER commanded the Gentiles to keep that day holy and He never charged Gentiles with breaking it. Ane why is this – because the Sabbath was a sign between God and fleshly Israel and nothing in the Bible says another people were required to keep that day – it was never given to any non-Jew including Adam, Noah, Job, etc. The word "Sabbath" is never found in the book of Genesis – why – because it was not given as law until Sinai and only to that people freed from Egyptian slavery (the Hebrew nation).
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee [Jews] to keep the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15 (KJV)The “shadow-sabbath” is no longer binding on God’s people because Christians now have their rest “in Christ”. Christians were warned against false teachers (Judaizers) who desired to turn God’s people back "to the weak and beggarly elements" and “bind” Sabbath keeping on Christians. But our latter-day Sabbatarian friends cannot support their non-biblical view with scriptures that command Christians to keep the Sabbath because Christians were never commanded to keep the 4th commandment. The Judaizers have always wanted to turn Christians back to the “weak and beggarly elements” of bondage but we have amble warring not to do this – the gospel of grace is not about observing days, and months, and times, and years. Don’t be fooled by the doctrines of men - we have His word to teach us the truth.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11 (KJV)

talmidim
Aug 17th 2008, 03:36 PM
Phillip, I see you have the pictograph of Shabbath in your avatar, lets work it from there....

Shin
Beyt
Tav


Now.... what does Shabat says according to the mnemonic of this word...???
Hi ACCM,

I have followed Mr Benner's work for a number of years now. And I have found his conclusions to be an interesting starting point when doing word studies in the ancient Hebrew. But relying on his work alone does not give us a full picture of a word's usage in scripture. So I tend to start there, but use scripture for confirmation and to determine the spiritual significance of letters, words and terms.

Sabbath is based on the Hebrew root word spelled 'shin, bet'. In your example and in scripture, it would mean 'press to the tent' or 'press home' or 'press to the family'. And that concept certainly holds true in the context of the Semitic tribesman. All law, that is the proper application of all types of authority, whether moral, ethical, familial or civil, has it's first application in the family of the Father.

In the ancient Hebrew writings this word spelled 'shin, bet', means, 'to sit' or 'rest while sitting'. This was an activity usually reserved for the head of the household or the patriarch of the tribe. It was reserved for men of stature and authority in the ancient cradle of civilization as a sign of respect and honor. Ordinary people do not sit in the presence of royalty or persons of power.

Adding the tav to this combination of letters adds the concept of 'mark sign or signature' to the word. It, in some places in scripture, signifies the covenant mark and the separation to Adonai - or holiness.

As example, the twenty-four Elders in the book of the Revelation are described as “overcomers”. They have crowns and they too sit in the presence of the King (when they are not bowing down and casting their crowns at His feet). Adding all of these letters together, I come up with a covenant promise to rest in His presence as co-regents and co-heirs. Sound familiar? It should.

How full of grace is the Sabbath, that the Sabbath is the sign and the means by which we 'press home' to our eternal covenant rest in Him.

Be Blessed,
Phillip

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 03:50 PM
Todah rabah :pp

This surely spells it out....

The Sabbath is a sign of rest for both Jew and Christian to dwell in the house of the L_rd


Does that sound right?

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 04:05 PM
Eze 20:12-13
12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them.
NKJV

Eze 20:20
20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.'
NKJV

BHS
Aug 17th 2008, 04:10 PM
What is the Sabbath?

Commentary on the Sabbath --

When history began there was only one holiness in the world, and that was holiness in time, the Sabbath day. The Sabbath was given for our pleasure. It is day of refreshing, but not a day to necessarily relax so that one can be ready to start up work again the following day. Instead, it is the climax of living. To the absence of work, is added the blessing of delight. (Isaiah 58). It is made up of joy and quietness. It is a reminder of the world we live in and the one to come. On earth it is a window into eternity, which is the eternal Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4).

To observe the Sabbath does not merely mean to obey a strict command. It celebrates the creation of the world and is a day more holy than the previous six. It becomes an opportunity to repair our lives and it teaches us Whom to praise. The song of the sabbath is, “It is good to give thanks unto the Lord. And to sing praise unto Thy Name, O Most High.”

Blessings,
BHS

valleybldr
Aug 17th 2008, 04:27 PM
Oh dear todd...... or shall we rename you :Todd the elocutionist :help:


:lol: :hug:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom 8:7


I'll have better luck putting a hole in that brick wall. todd

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 04:34 PM
Eze 20:12-13
12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them.
NKJV

Eze 20:20
20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.'
NKJV


The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people. He wants them (us) to know who He is. He wants us to know that He is the one who sanctifies us. He wants us to know that He is the Lord, our God.

So whether we observe the Sabbath, or merely study about the Sabbath, there is one thing we should learn. He is God. Holiness is important to Him.

losthorizon
Aug 17th 2008, 05:13 PM
The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people. He wants them (us) to know who He is. He wants us to know that He is the one who sanctifies us. He wants us to know that He is the Lord, our God.

So whether we observe the Sabbath, or merely study about the Sabbath, there is one thing we should learn. He is God. Holiness is important to Him.
But the question remains – is the 4th commandment part of the gospel of Christ today? Christians do not live under the Mosaical system with the old shadows - we live under the New Testament and the law of Christ which does not require “day-keeping”. The law of faith is not a system based on the "works" of the old Mosaic Law which included keeping the seventh day. We glory only in the cross of Christ - "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. Romans 3:27

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 05:35 PM
B The law of faith is not a system based on the "works" of the old Mosaic Law which included keeping the seventh day. Please explain to me,,,What is the Law of Faith :hmm:

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 05:43 PM
Go for it. Kill the Sabbath breakers. :B todd


If you believe Gods commandment concerning the Sabbath still stands and you cannot show where it has changed, and God himself said that you cannot add nor take away from what God has commanded then you have a choice wether to obey or disobey God.

This is Gods law on the Sabbath;

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Now you cannot have it both ways, either God has not changed his law or he has changed his law.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 05:46 PM
The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people. He wants them (us) to know who He is. He wants us to know that He is the one who sanctifies us. He wants us to know that He is the Lord, our God.

So whether we observe the Sabbath, or merely study about the Sabbath, there is one thing we should learn. He is God. Holiness is important to Him.

When it comes to Gods commandments, do we have a choice wether we obey or not, at the risk of being punished for disobedience?

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 05:46 PM
FirstfruitsI think you misinterpret his post :)

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:18 PM
I think you misinterpret his post :)

Would you agree that for us to be holy before God needs obedience, and therefore unless God says that we are no longer to follow a commandment that we have no choice but to obey?

So whether we observe the Sabbath, or merely study about the Sabbath, there is one thing we should learn. He is God. Holiness is important to Him.

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 06:24 PM
When it comes to Gods commandments, do we have a choice wether we obey or not, at the risk of being punished for disobedience?

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

I hear this argument raging all the time. I too, went through a period of struggling to know whether I was obligated to "keep" the Sabbath. And if I was, what did that look like? How did I do it? Whenever I re-visit the subject, I believe afresh that it is something you would need to grow up in, to "keep" it the way it is kept by the Jews.

Fortunately, I spent some time in Hebrews, and came to a deeper understanding of what is meant by God about rest. I do not think keeping the Sabbath is a harsh edict that requires obedience or punishment.

The Ezekiel scriptures are something I came across just this week as I am reading through that book; to me those two verses speak volumes. The Sabbath is a gift. It is given as a sign of God's love for His people.

How is it pleasing to Him that we bicker and fight over a gift which He gave first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles also?

If you love the gift, then enjoy it. If you do not love it, then leave it for others to enjoy, but do not deprive them of the right to enter in to that blessed rest provided by our Lord.

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:35 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

I hear this argument raging all the time. I too, went through a period of struggling to know whether I was obligated to "keep" the Sabbath. And if I was, what did that look like? How did I do it? Whenever I re-visit the subject, I believe afresh that it is something you would need to grow up in, to "keep" it the way it is kept by the Jews.

Fortunately, I spent some time in Hebrews, and came to a deeper understanding of what is meant by God about rest. I do not think keeping the Sabbath is a harsh edict that requires obedience or punishment.

The Ezekiel scriptures are something I came across just this week as I am reading through that book; to me those two verses speak volumes. The Sabbath is a gift. It is given as a sign of God's love for His people.

How is it pleasing to Him that we bicker and fight over a gift which He gave first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles also?

If you love the gift, then enjoy it. If you do not love it, then leave it for others to enjoy, but do not deprive them of the right to enter in to that blessed rest provided by our Lord.

Thanks RoadWarrior,

How then do the Jews keep the Sabbath that differs from what God has commanded?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 06:39 PM
Would you agree that for us to be holy before God needs obedience, and therefore unless God says that we are no longer to follow a commandment that we have no choice but to obey?

So whether we observe the Sabbath, or merely study about the Sabbath, there is one thing we should learn. He is God. Holiness is important to Him.

FirstfruitsNo problem with that :)

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 06:46 PM
It is my personal belief and understanding that the period of history into which the Lord intervened with the laws as given to Moses, was a truly terrible time. To take a people-group and change them radically, called for truly drastic measures. God's interaction with the Hebrews at that time contained blessings and curses, in order to show them dramatically what the differences were in God's way and the way of the world.

If you are Jewish, then these ways (keeping the Sabbath) are ingrained and indoctrinated into your culture. If you observe the religious Jews (like Fenris for example) you will see immediately the difference. When the sun goes down on Friday, the Jews have stopped working, they have withdrawn from the world and the time they spend until sundown on Saturday is holy, it belong to God.

As a Gentile, I feel I can only look into the windows and see the peace and joy which belongs to those who possess this gift. If I could keep the Sabbath as they do, I would. Not because of the commandments of 6000 years ago, but because of the obvious benefits that come from walking in the ways of the Lord, of which that is only one.

I do believe that many of us as Christians have a distorted view of things. I doubt that many understand what is meant in the writings of Paul about "keeping the law", or what Jesus mean when He spoke of "fulfilling the law."

Which do you seek?

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:48 PM
No problem with that :)

Thanks ACCM,

God bless,

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 06:49 PM
Thanks RoadWarrior,

How then do the Jews keep the Sabbath that differs from what God has commanded?

Firstfruits

I think that the Jews keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but you might ask that question of Fenris and see what he has to say.

losthorizon
Aug 17th 2008, 06:53 PM
If you love the gift, then enjoy it. If you do not love it, then leave it for others to enjoy, but do not deprive them of the right to enter in to that blessed rest provided by our Lord.
The Jews were not given an option – obey the 4th commandment or don’t – just enjoy yourself. They were commanded to keep that law and if they didn’t they were held accountable to God for disobeying His command. Are Christians under the same edict?

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 06:54 PM
The Sabbath starts on Friday just before sunset, with the lighting of candles and saying of prayers,,,, then you go to Synagogue ..... after that there is a feast of a meal.... eating and singing of psalms and wine..... and off to bed you go....

On Saturday... here I stand to correction.... but it is set aside for family time, discussion of the Torah and rest....

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 06:58 PM
I think that the Jews keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but you might ask that question of Fenris and see what he has to say.

Thanks RoadWarrior,

I can see what God commanded in this scripture; Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

So as long as it is the same then it is according to Gods will, if it is not then there is a problem according to what Jesus said concerning Gods commandments.

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 07:00 PM
The Jews were not given an option – obey the 4th commandment or don’t – just enjoy yourself. They were commanded to keep that law and if they didn’t they were held accountable to God for disobeying His command. Are Christians under the same edict?


No, we are under a different edict.

Jn 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
NKJV

Note also the purpose given for this commandment, it is a sign to all peoples that we are His disciples.

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 07:09 PM
No, we are under a different edict.

Jn 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
NKJV

Note also the purpose given for this commandment, it is a sign to all peoples that we are His disciples.

If we are therefore not instructed to do so, why then are we compelled to do so, when we are not commanded to By Jesus?

RoadWarrior
Aug 17th 2008, 07:10 PM
If we are therefore not instructed to do so, why then are we compelled to do so, when we are not commanded to By Jesus?


Why do you feel you are compelled to do so?

Firstfruits
Aug 17th 2008, 07:18 PM
The Sabbath starts on Friday just before sunset, with the lighting of candles and saying of prayers,,,, then you go to Synagogue ..... after that there is a feast of a meal.... eating and singing of psalms and wine..... and off to bed you go....

On Saturday... here I stand to correction.... but it is set aside for family time, discussion of the Torah and rest....

Do the Jews also obey the other half of Gods commandment, knowing that nothing can be added or taken away from it, if not why not?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 07:40 PM
Do the Jews also obey the other half of Gods commandment, knowing that nothing can be added or taken away from it, if not why not?
I suppose they do..... :dunno:Ask Fenris :idea:

Marc B
Aug 17th 2008, 08:23 PM
Jesus kept the Sabbath and still did humanitarian work on that day did He not? Didn't He say it was OK to do good works on the Sabbath? Wouldn't doctors, police officers, firemen, paramedics, etc who work on the Sabbath be considered doing good works? The ox in the ditch is an excellent example for Christians who work in these kinds of jobs and other essential services not to feel guilty about working Saturdays or whatever day they feel guilty about working. If we were to keep the Sabbath Law in strictest legal form we would have to close hospitals, emergency clinics, etc. Prison staff would have to stay home and the inmates would have free run of the jail every Saturday, gangs and looters would be free to roam the streets because all the police officers were off duty that day.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 01:40 AM
Christ is our only sabbath(rest) now.

Romans 14:1-6, Paul addresses that Christians are not to judge one another on the value of celebration days or what day they celebrate Christ on. The day is not important, the celebration of Christ is.

Colossians 2:16-17 states clearly that Christ is now the sabbath. Not any day of the week, but Christ alone.

Hebrews chapter 8 addresses Christ as the high priest of a new covenant.

Hebrews chapter 4 states that God sets the sabbath on a new day, and God called it today(verse 7). In other words, every day is the sabbath day if you are in Christ.


This explains the Sabbath fulfilled through Christ perfectly. It's very simple folks, Christ is now our sabbath, not some specific Holy day of the week.

RoadWarrior
Aug 18th 2008, 02:01 AM
This explains the Sabbath fulfilled through Christ perfectly. It's very simple folks, Christ is now our sabbath, not some specific Holy day of the week.

True. I still like a day of rest somewhere in the span of 7 days, though!

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 02:13 AM
True. I still like a day of rest somewhere in the span of 7 days, though!

I agree, but whether you rest from your job and go to Church on Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday, etc............. it does not matter. There is no specific Holy day of the week if you are in Christ.

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 03:08 AM
This explains the Sabbath fulfilled through Christ perfectly. It's very simple folks, Christ is now our sabbath, not some specific Holy day of the week.
Romans 14:1-6 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:1&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) Now as for a person whose trust is weak, welcome him - but not to get into arguments over opinions. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:2&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) One person has the trust that will allow him to eat anything, while another whose trust is weak eats only vegetables. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:3&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him - 4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:4&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? It is before his own master that he will stand or fall; and the fact is that he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:5&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) One person considers some days more holy than others, while someone else regards them as being all alike. What is important is for each to be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:6&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) He who observes a day as special does so to honor the Lord. Also he who eats anything, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; likewise the abstainer abstains to honor the Lord, and he too gives thanks to God.

Where does it say it is wrong to esteem a day like Sabbath if it is my personal choice. I see no direct command or insinuation that orders believers to stop celebrating Sabbath.

Col 2:16,17
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to aJewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat.
These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.
Mh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361)oun (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3767)tiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5100)umav (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5209)krinetw (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2919)(5720 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5720))en (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1722)brwsei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1035)kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)en (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1722)posei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4213)h (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2228)en (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1722)merei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3313)eorthv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1859)h (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2228)neomhniav (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3561)h (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2228)sabbatwn, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4521)
a (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3739)estin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2076)(5748 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5748))skia (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4639)twn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)mellontwn, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3195)(5723 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5723))to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)de (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1161)swma (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4983)tou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)Xristou. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5547)


According to this Scripture, it says that these things are yet to come to fulness. It uses the future tense, not pass tense. I see no direct command or insinuation to stop Sabbath observance. The Greek word in this text means to separate from and allow their opinion to rule you.


Hebrews chapter 4 . 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+4:9&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+4:10&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.

ara (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=686)apoleipetai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=620)(5743 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5743))sabbatismov (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4520)tw (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)law (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2992)tou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)qeou; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316) o (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)gar (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1063)eiselqwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1525)(5631 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5631))eiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1519)thn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)katapausin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2663)autou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846)kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)autov (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846)katepausen (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2664)(5656 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5656))apo (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=575)twn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)ergwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2041)autou (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846)wsper (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5618)apo (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=575)twn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)idiwn (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2398)o (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)qeov. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)


This indicates that believers should expect a eternal sabbath rest one day when our work ceases. This Scripture seems to contradict any attitude of ignoring the Sabbath regarding that is not ascribed to the future in some capacity.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 03:21 AM
Romans 14:1-6 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:1&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) Now as for a person whose trust is weak, welcome him - but not to get into arguments over opinions. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:2&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) One person has the trust that will allow him to eat anything, while another whose trust is weak eats only vegetables. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:3&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him - 4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:4&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? It is before his own master that he will stand or fall; and the fact is that he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:5&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) One person considers some days more holy than others, while someone else regards them as being all alike. What is important is for each to be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+14:6&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) He who observes a day as special does so to honor the Lord. Also he who eats anything, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; likewise the abstainer abstains to honor the Lord, and he too gives thanks to God.

Where does it say it is wrong to esteem a day like Sabbath if it is my personal choice. I see no direct command or insinuation that orders believers to stop celebrating Sabbath.

(http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846)

Nothing wrong with this, as long as you focus on Christ while doing so.

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 03:56 AM
Nothing wrong with this, as long as you focus on Christ while doing so.

You can bet my salvation on that and my last dollar. :rofl:

I by no means want to suffer unnecessarily regarding the adding of things that are not profitable to my spiritual growth. :monkeyd:

RoadWarrior
Aug 18th 2008, 04:31 AM
...
Where does it say it is wrong to esteem a day like Sabbath if it is my personal choice. I see no direct command or insinuation that orders believers to stop celebrating Sabbath.
...


Manichunter, if you enjoy observing the day, then enjoy it. You are not prohibited.

Whatever you do, do it as unto the Lord.

Col 3:23-25
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
NKJV

talmidim
Aug 18th 2008, 07:30 AM
Christ is our only sabbath(rest) now.

Romans 14:1-6, Paul addresses that Christians are not to judge one another on the value of celebration days or what day they celebrate Christ on. The day is not important, the celebration of Christ is.This passage never says that the day is not important. It says that judging new brothers, weak in faith is not your place. So I find it interesting that those that keep the Sabbath simply tell you why they do - because they believe the Lord wants them to.

I say keep Sabbath or break it as your conscience leads. For me, I'll keep it, along with the rest of the Ten Commandments.


Colossians 2:16-17 states clearly that Christ is now the sabbath. Not any day of the week, but Christ alone.Those scriptures do not say anything of the sort.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Those scriptures DO say do not let others judge you.
Those scriptures DO say that those appointed times, the Sabbaths, Feast days, New Moons, etc., are a shadow (that is to say prophetic) of things to come.
Those scriptures DO say that the BODY is of Christ, not the Sabbath - as you claim.


Some people that make these claims fail to note what the Jews were teaching the gentiles. They were teaching that a gentile had to BECOME a Jew through circumcision BEFORE they could celebrate the Sabbath and the Appointed Times (Feasts, New Moons, etc.) of the Lord.

They also fail to point out that instructing believers to ignore the Lord's special days, as your interpretation does, instructs them to ignore the things to come as well. We are instructed to watch. And it is through His Appointed Times that we know when to watch and for what to watch.


Hebrews chapter 8 addresses Christ as the high priest of a new covenant.This much is true. But the audience was the Hebrew people that understood the Levitical system and the nuances of the Temple service and the priesthood. And many sayings and teachings in this book are mistaken by those that do not subscribe to the Hebraic context of this book.


Hebrews chapter 4 states that God sets the sabbath on a new day, and God called it today(verse 7). In other words, every day is the sabbath day if you are in Christ.First off, nowhere does this say that God changed the Sabbath. And secondly, I'll let everyone read verse seven for themselves:

(ALT) again He designates a certain day, "Today," saying in David, after such a long time just as it has been said, "Today if you* hear His voice, stop hardening your* hearts [fig., becoming stubborn]." [Psalm 95:7,8]

(ASV) he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.

(BBE) After a long time, again naming a certain day, he says in David, Today as he had said before, Today if you will let his voice come to your ears, be not hard of heart,

(Bishops) Againe, he appoynteth a certaine day, by to day, saying in Dauid after so long a tyme (as it is sayde:) To day yf ye wyl heare his voyce, harde not your hearts.

(CEV) Much later God told David to make the promise again, just as I have already said, "If you hear his voice today, don't be stubborn!"

(Darby) again he determines a certain day, saying, in David, 'To-day,' after so long a time; (according as it has been said before), To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(DRB) Again he limiteth a certain day, saying in David; To day, after so long a time as it is above said: To day if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(EMTV) again He appoints a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a time, just as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."

(ESV) again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

(GB) Againe he appointed in Dauid a certaine day, by To day, after so long a time, saying, as it is sayd, This day, if ye heare his voyce, harden not your hearts.

(Geneva) Againe he appointed in Dauid a certaine day, by To day, after so long a time, saying, as it is sayd, This day, if ye heare his voyce, harden not your hearts.

(GNB) This is shown by the fact that God sets another day, which is called "Today." Many years later he spoke of it through David in the scripture already quoted: "If you hear God's voice today, do not be stubborn."

(GNT) πάλιν τινὰ ὁρίζει ἡμέραν, σήμερον, ἐν Δαυῒδ λέγων, μετὰ τοσοῦτον χρόνον, καθὼς εἴρηται· σήμερον ἐὰν τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ ἀκούσητε, μὴ σκληρύνητε τὰς καρδίας ὑμῶν.

(GNT+) παλιν3825 ADV τινα5100 X-ASF οριζει3724 V-PAI-3S ημεραν2250 N-ASF σημερον4594 ADV εν1722 PREP δαυιδ1138 N-PRI λεγων3004 V-PAP-NSM μετα3326 PREP τοσουτον5118 D-ASM χρονον5550 N-ASM καθως2531 ADV ειρηται2046 V-RPI-3S σημερον4594 ADV εαν1437 COND της3588 T-GSF φωνης5456 N-GSF αυτου846 P-GSM ακουσητε191 V-AAS-2P μη3361 PRT-N σκληρυνητε4645 V-PAS-2P τας3588 T-APF καρδιας2588 N-APF υμων5216 P-2GP

(GNT-BYZ+) παλιν3825 ADV τινα5100 X-ASF οριζει3724 V-PAI-3S ημεραν2250 N-ASF σημερον4594 ADV εν1722 PREP δαυιδ1138 N-PRI λεγων3004 V-PAP-NSM μετα3326 PREP τοσουτον5118 D-ASM χρονον5550 N-ASM καθως2531 ADV ειρηται2046 V-RPI-3S σημερον4594 ADV εαν1437 COND της3588 T-GSF φωνης5456 N-GSF αυτου846 P-GSM ακουσητε191 V-AAS-2P μη3361 PRT-N σκληρυνητε4645 V-PAS-2P τας3588 T-APF καρδιας2588 N-APF υμων4771 P-2GP

(GNT-TR) παλιν τινα οριζει ημεραν σημερον εν δαβιδ λεγων μετα τοσουτον χρονον καθως ειρηται σημερον εαν της φωνης αυτου ακουσητε μη σκληρυνητε τας καρδιας υμων

(GNT-TR+) παλιν3825 ADV τινα5100 X-ASF οριζει3724 V-PAI-3S ημεραν2250 N-ASF σημερον4594 ADV εν1722 PREP δαβιδ1138 N-PRI λεγων3004 V-PAP-NSM μετα3326 PREP τοσουτον5118 D-ASM χρονον5550 N-ASM καθως2531 ADV ειρηται2046 V-RPI-3S σημερον4594 ADV εαν1437 COND της3588 T-GSF φωνης5456 N-GSF αυτου846 P-GSM ακουσητε191 V-AAS-2P μη3361 PRT-N σκληρυνητε4645 V-PAS-2P τας3588 T-APF καρδιας2588 N-APF υμων4771 P-2GP

(GNT-V) παλιν τινα οριζει ημεραν σημερον εν BAδαυιδ TSδαβιδ λεγων μετα τοσουτον χρονον καθως Aπροειρηται TSBειρηται σημερον εαν της φωνης αυτου ακουσητε μη σκληρυνητε τας καρδιας υμων

(GNT-WH+) παλιν3825 ADV τινα5100 X-ASF οριζει3724 V-PAI-3S ημεραν2250 N-ASF σημερον4594 ADV εν1722 PREP δαυιδ1138 N-PRI λεγων3004 V-PAP-NSM μετα3326 PREP τοσουτον5118 D-ASM χρονον5550 N-ASM καθως2531 ADV προειρηται4308 V-RPI-3S σημερον4594 ADV εαν1437 COND της3588 T-GSF φωνης5456 N-GSF αυτου846 P-GSM ακουσητε191 V-AAS-2P μη3361 PRT-N σκληρυνητε4645 V-PAS-2P τας3588 T-APF καρδιας2588 N-APF υμων4771 P-2GP

(GW) So God set another day. That day is today. Many years after your ancestors failed to enter that place of rest God spoke about it through David in the passage already quoted: "If you hear God speak today, don't be stubborn."

(HNT) לכן הוסיף לקבוע יום מקץ ימים רבים באמרו על־ידי דוד היום כמו שנאמר היום אם־בקלו תשמעו אל־תקשו לבבכם׃

(HNV) he again defines a certain day, today, saying through David so long a time afterward (just as has been said), "Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts."

(ISV) he again fixes a definite day-"Today"-saying long afterward through David, as already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

(KJV) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(KJV+) Again,3825 he limiteth3724 a certain5100 day,2250 saying3004 in1722 David,1138 Today,4594 after3326 so long5118 a time;5550 as2531 it is said,2046 Today4594 if1437 ye will hear191 his846 voice,5456 harden4645 not3361 your5216 hearts.2588

(KJV-1611) Againe, hee limiteth a certaine day, saying in Dauid, To day, after so long a time; as it is saide, To day if ye will heare his voyce, harden not your hearts.

(KJVA) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(KJVR) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(LITV) He again marks out a certain day, saying in David, Today (after so long a time, according as He has said), "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." MT-Psalm 95:7, 8

(MKJV) He again marks out a certain day, saying in David, "Today," (after so long a time). Even as it is said, "Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

(MRC) He again appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through Daveed after so long a time, just as it has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

(MSG) God keeps renewing the promise and setting the date as today, just as he did in David's psalm, centuries later than the original invitation: Today, please listen, don't turn a deaf ear . . .

(NASB) He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

(NASB+) He again3825 fixes3724 a certain5100 day2250, "Today4594," saying3004 through1722 David1160b after3326 so5118 long5118 a time5550 just2531a as has been said4275b before4275b, "TODAY4594 IF1437 YOU HEAR191 HIS VOICE5456, DO NOT HARDEN4645 YOUR HEARTS2588."

(NBLH) Dios otra vez fija un día: Hoy. Diciendo por medio de David después de mucho tiempo, como se ha dicho antes: "SI USTEDES OYEN HOY SU VOZ, NO ENDUREZCAN SUS CORAZONES."

(RSV) again he sets a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

(RSVA) again he sets a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

(RV) he again defineth a certain day, saying in David, after so long a time, Today, as it hath been before said, Today if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.

(Vulgate) iterum terminat diem quendam hodie in David dicendo post tantum temporis sicut supra dictum est hodie si vocem eius audieritis nolite obdurare corda vestra

(WEB) he again defines a certain day, today, saying through David so long a time afterward (just as has been said), "Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts."

(Webster) (Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To-day, after so long a time; as it is said, To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(WNT) He again definitely mentions a certain day, "To-day," saying long afterwards, by David's lips, in the words already quoted, "TO-DAY, IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

(YLT) again He doth limit a certain day, `To-day,' (in David saying, after so long a time,) as it hath been said, `To-day, if His voice ye may hear, ye may not harden your hearts,'

This verse is about submitting to the Lord TODAY. It is not about changing the Sabbath. The Sabbath was also a test for those that would obey Him. And there are many now, as then, that choose not to submit to His instruction.

In short, there is no place in scripture where the Father or the Son tells us not to keep the Sabbath as He gave it.

In His Love,
Phillip

losthorizon
Aug 18th 2008, 11:31 AM
[I say keep Sabbath or break it as your conscience leads. For me, I'll keep it, along with the rest of the Ten Commandments.


Christians have never been under legal obligation to keep the 4th commandment that was nailed to the cross of Christ along with the entire Mosaical system – ie animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, etc. The commandment for day-keeping was given to Jews only. To say a Christian can “break it” is to misunderstand the clear teaching of the NT. We are repeatedly warned of the dangers of the Judaizing error that has never died and is being floated on this thread – Christians are not to go back to the "yoke of bondage" found in the shadows of Judaism. Christians are to exercise their freedom in Christ and the law of Christ does not include “day-keeping”.

talmidim
Aug 18th 2008, 01:11 PM
Deepest apologies...

...the Ten Suggestions. :rolleyes:

losthorizon
Aug 18th 2008, 03:16 PM
Deepest apologies...

...the Ten Suggestions. :rolleyes:

I would refer you to the word “legalism”.

talmidim
Aug 18th 2008, 04:04 PM
Not the thing I want to argue when He says, 'Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness.' But Lord, aren't your Commandments 'legalism'?

You can do what you want, but I don't think it will carry much weight. Btw, I did a search for 'legalism' in scripture. It's not there.

losthorizon
Aug 18th 2008, 07:19 PM
Not the thing I want to argue when He says, 'Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness.' But Lord, aren't your Commandments 'legalism'?

You can do what you want, but I don't think it will carry much weight. Btw, I did a search for 'legalism' in scripture. It's not there.

You don’t want to argue because you don’t have a case – the Bible is clear – the Mosaic system that included the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled. Christians live under the law of Christ that does not include “day-keeping”. Legalist can never find a reference to legalism but you can simply read the book of Galatians where the Judaizing error was condemned for the error it was and still is – remember what the Book says – there is nothing new under the sun and the Judaizers will continue to put the yoke around the neck of the weak.

Ta-An
Aug 18th 2008, 07:21 PM
You don’t want to argue because you don’t have a case – the Bible is clear – the Mosaic system that included the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled. . Scripture please.... Christ annulled the law??? :hmm:

Ethnikos
Aug 18th 2008, 07:48 PM
You don’t want to argue because you don’t have a case – the Bible is clear – the Mosaic system that included the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled. Christians live under the law of Christ that does not include “day-keeping”. Legalist can never find a reference to legalism but you can simply read the book of Galatians where the Judaizing error was condemned for the error it was and still is – remember what the Book says – there is nothing new under the sun and the Judaizers will continue to put the yoke around the neck of the weak.

That is a pretty astounding statement. That reminds me of the conversation between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. She said her people worshiped at their own temple. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews.
It seems, in context, that Jesus was implying that the temple in Jerusalem was the true Temple, as opposed to the temple in Samaria.
Before Jesus was arrested, the Pharisees came to him and advised him to leave because the Jews were planning to kill him. That kind of shocked me, to think the Pharisees were actually trying to help him. If Jesus would have ever even hinted that the Law would ever be nullified, the Pharisees would have been first in line to kill Jesus.
Jesus also said for no one to ever teach that the Law should not be followed.
If Jesus foresaw the Law ending very soon, don't you think he would have toned it down a little?
Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
The above text is usually understood to imply that the old dispensation ended at John proclaiming a new Kingdom of God.
So, why would Jesus be talking about the Temple and the Law and being loved by the doctors of the Law, if it was all over and had been replaced?
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
When Jesus said he was fulfilling the Law, that may not mean that he was carrying out the law, but that he was doing the things in the Bible's Old Testament (what the Jews called the Law and the Prophets) that spoke specifically about him.

matthew94
Aug 18th 2008, 08:20 PM
Christians are not without law. We are under Christ's law. He is our owner and boss. We are His slaves and servants. Any law, from the Old Covenant, which expressed the very character of God (moral law) flows out, of course, from Jesus (since He is the Son of God). We are obligated to follow the moral law of God and to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ.

talmidim
Aug 18th 2008, 10:05 PM
Christians are not without law. We are under Christ's law. He is our owner and boss. We are His slaves and servants. Any law, from the Old Covenant, which expressed the very character of God (moral law) flows out, of course, from Jesus (since He is the Son of God). We are obligated to follow the moral law of God and to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ.Hello Matthew, :wave:

So can you tell us who gave us the Commandments at Sinai?

Firstfruits
Aug 18th 2008, 10:54 PM
Why do you feel you are compelled to do so?

If we do not keep the Sabbath it is felt that we are not being obedient to Gods word.

Firstffruits

losthorizon
Aug 18th 2008, 11:17 PM
Scripture please.... Christs annulled the law??? :hmm:
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb 7:18,19 The Law of Moses and the Levitical priesthood were both “disannulled” when Christ died on the cross – why – because the Law of Moses made nothing perfect. God foretold the day when He would make a “new covenant” with His people and He explicitly stated it would not to be “like the covenant which I made with their fathers whom He delivered from the and of Egypt”. And for this “new covenant” to be binding on God’s people the “old Mosaical system” would have to be “abrogated” (done away with) – why - because the “Mediator” and new “High Priest” of this “new covenant” was to come “out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood”. The new and better covenant with its new and perfect High Priest would be “after the order of Melchisedec” – ie- Jesus the Christ – the only priest who can forgive our sins through His very blood freely shed on our behalf and through that sacrifice God promised He would "remember our sins no more".

If the Mosaical Law and the Levitical priesthood remained in force Jesus could not be our Savior and High priest and it is for that reason the old Levitical priesthood was changed, and because of the change in priesthood there was of necessity a change also of the old covenant law. For that reason, the Law of Moses became obsolete and was "nailed to the cross" of Christ never to be needed again – never to be binding on God’s people again. Christians live under the New Testament today with a new High Priest – Jesus Christ. Christians have a new law – the Law of Christ and His law is not a legal system based on day-keeping as it is erroneously being floated on this thread. Christ’s law is a conceptual law based on the two basic principles taught by the Lord in the New Testament – faith and love. Christ’s law is summed up in the words of John…

And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23There is no requirement for Christians to "keep" the 4th commandment - a command given ONLY to the Jews. There is not one instance in the NT where even one Christian was ever commanded to keep that day holy. Those who teach that Christians have a legal requirement to keep the Sabbath teach much error. We are told not to go back under the shadows of the old law with its day-keeping, feists, new moons, etc etc...
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

RoadWarrior
Aug 18th 2008, 11:51 PM
If we do not keep the Sabbath it is felt that we are not being obedient to Gods word.

Firstffruits

Well, that's the opinion of some people. I think that Jesus was the one who told us which commandments were important.

Remember these?

Love God.
Love your neighbor.

And then Jesus added a third.

Love one another.

So if someone seeks to lay a heavy burden on you, examine the interaction by these three commandments.

If you have trouble knowing what it means to love someone (or whether someone is being loving toward you) go and read 1 Cor 13. By this measure I have been able to make wise decisions about how people are talking to me or treating me.

We do not need to accept the burdens that people sometimes want to lay on our shoulders.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 12:59 AM
You don’t want to argue because you don’t have a case – the Bible is clear – the Mosaic system that included the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and annulled. Christians live under the law of Christ that does not include “day-keeping”. Legalist can never find a reference to legalism but you can simply read the book of Galatians where the Judaizing error was condemned for the error it was and still is – remember what the Book says – there is nothing new under the sun and the Judaizers will continue to put the yoke around the neck of the weak.


How about you provide the Scripture that commands Christians to no longer regard the Sabbath. By the word command, I mean say as such, "Do not worship on the Sabbath because it has been annullled". I bet a million dollars you cannot find one positive command. Everything would be assumptive teaching and proof texting. It is not legalistic to honor the day. If you honor any day, and I am sure you do, then you should be considered just as legalistic. Sabbath does not prove me righteous but manifests that I trust and love God in my obedience. I simply know this is something I should continue to be obedient. If you feel differently, then we should be at peace and do as Scripture say. Let no man seek to control you with his opinion regarding any Sabbath, Holy Festivals, and New Moons. I do not seek to put my conviction on you. I speak truth and you speak truth, let God be judge.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 01:07 AM
Hello Matthew, :wave:

So can you tell us who gave us the Commandments at Sinai?

Hello :)

God (which, of course, includes Jesus)

Do you still practice animal sacrifice?

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 01:09 AM
Matthew,
There is no Temple. However, Paul continued animal sacrifices (under direction of the church elders in Jerusalem).

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 01:18 AM
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11


You completely took this Scripture out of context. Who is Saul talking to? Who is he gaurding them against? Why?

Saul is talking to a gentile audience and congregation who where not practicing Jews or even prostelytes. They were former pagans as indicated in verse 8. Saul is addressing their own pagan rituals slipping into the gospel, hence the reference to the myths and spirits in verse 9 (elements is also translated spirits). Paul was not talking about the Days and Festivals the Jews observed, but the pagan days.

Saul is protecting them from Judiazers. Judiazers are Jew who thought gentile christians should be converted to Judiaism first before qualifying as Christians, which included physical circumcision. A gentile no longer had to take the physical mark of circumcision as a sign of coming into the covenant. It was a theological difference in which Saul did not agree with (I agree with Saul also). This is the main theme of Galatians as well as Saul. These Judiazers were in competition with Saul and those who agreed with Him for disciples.

Now read 21. Paul speaks out against legalism as a perversion of the Torah. This means that carnality can pervert Torah. Carnality also hates Torah as well. That which it cannot corrupt it rejects. True Torah has always been of faith as shown by the obedience and trust of Abraham as illustrated by the latter half of the chapter.

Galatians. Stop proof texting by separating Scripture from its context

8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:8&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) In the past, when you did not know God, you served as slaves beings which in reality are non-gods. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:9&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) But now you do know God, and, more than that, you are known by God. So how is it that you turn back again to those weak and miserable elemental spirits? Do you want to enslave yourselves to them once more? 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:10&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) You observe special days, months, seasons and years! 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:11&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) I fear for you that my work among you has been wasted!
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:12&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) Brothers, I beg of you: put yourselves in my place - after all, I put myself in your place. It isn't that you have done me any wrong - 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:13&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) you know that it was because I was ill that I proclaimed the Good News to you at first; 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:14&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) and even though my physical condition must have tempted you to treat me with scorn, you did not display any sign of disdain or disgust. No, you welcomed me as if I had been an angel of God, as if I had been the Messiah Yeshua himself! 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:15&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) So what has become of the joy you felt? For I bear you witness that had it been possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:16&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:17&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) True, these teachers are zealous for you, but their motives are not good. They want to separate you from us so that you will become zealous for them. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:18&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) To be zealous is good, provided always that the cause is good. Indeed, whether I am present with you or not,
19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:19&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) my dear children, I am suffering the pains of giving birth to you all over again - and this will go on until the Messiah takes shape in you. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:20&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone of voice. I don't know what to do with you. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:21&t=cjb&sr=1&l=en) Tell me, you who want to be in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism, don't you hear what the Torah itself says?

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 01:19 AM
Matthew,
There is no Temple. However, Paul continued animal sacrifices (under direction of the church elders in Jerusalem).

There is a temple. We're it. The shadow (a physical building) has been replaced by the true substance intended all along (a spiritual building). That's exactly my point. The animal sacrifices were never intended to continue forever. They were ceremonial (symbolizing something greater). The Sabbath was also a ceremonial law, as I have proved elsewhere.

Even if you could prove that Paul continued practicing the sacrificial system until his death AND could prove that he kept the Sabbath every weekend until his death, that wouldn't make your point. Your job is not to prove what Paul, as a Jew, was in the custom of doing, but what Jesus/Paul taught as a command for all Christians.

valleybldr
Aug 19th 2008, 01:21 AM
Galatians. Stop proof texting by separating Scripture from its context
Oh, that would cut the post volume in half at least. todd

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 01:31 AM
The disciples discovered that Jesus had risen, on the first day of the week.



Mark 16:9
(Mt 28:9,10; Jn 20:11-18; Luke 24:1)
9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. NKJV


The disciples began that same day, to gather together on the first day of the week.


John 20:19
(Lk 24:36-43; 1 Co 15:5)
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." NKJV

They continued to gather together on the first day of the week.


Acts 20:7
7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. NKJV


And it was also done as time went on.


1 Corinthians 16:2
2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. NKJV

Perhaps many of these, being Jews, still were observing the Sabbath during the early days of Christianity. We are not given explicit Biblical instructions for which day to observe or not observe, but it seems that the disciples established a precedent for meeting together on the first day of the week, and the churches of today in large part, still follow that pattern.

For some of us, that allows us to have the last day of the week as a day of rest and private meditation/worship, then gather with other Christians on the first day.



Ro 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. NKJV

If each of us has a joy to share in how we do this, then let's hear it. But please don't tell me I "have to do it" your way.

My personal favorite time of meeting with the Lord is when He wakens me in the middle of the night, and calls me to open His Word and listen to what He speaks to my heart.

What is your personal favorite? How/when/where does God's Presence bless you the most?

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 01:49 AM
RoadWarrior

Good point, after Sabbath the disciples gathered together on Saturday night to break bread.

(Biblical Day begins at sunset, i.e. Saturday night = first day.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 01:55 AM
RoadWarrior

Good point, after Sabbath the disciples gathered together on Saturday night to break bread.

(Biblical Day begins at sunset, i.e. Saturday night = first day.

Are you trying to say that they met at 6pm on what we'd call Saturday and that this shows they were still keeping the Jewish Sabbath in that way?

If that's your point, you lose either way! If Sunday begins at 6pm on what we call Saturday, then they were still meeting on Sunday. If you're counting Saturday night as Saturday, then you're denying the phrase 'first day of the week' :)

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 02:01 AM
You completely took this Scripture out of context. Who is Saul talking to? Who is he gaurding them against? Why?

Saul is talking to a gentile audience and congregation who where not practicing Jews or even prostelytes. They were former pagans as indicated in verse 8. Saul is addressing their own pagan rituals slipping into the gospel, hence the reference to the myths and spirits in verse 9 (elements is also translated spirits). Paul was not talking about the Days and Festivals the Jews observed, but the pagan days.


Of course you are quite mistaken my friend. You do not understand the term “Judaizer” and you fail to understand who they were and what error they taught but I can assure you the error they taught is the same error being taught on this thread. The “the weak and beggarly elements” is a direct reference to the “ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law” including the ceremonial “keeping” of the seventh day. I would suggest you take a Judaizer 101 course before you embarrass yourself further. And I would advise any on this thread who attempt to impose a servitude on other Christians with the yoke of bondage that ended at the cross to re-think what you do.
To the weak and beggarly elements - After receiving all this, will ye turn again to the ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law - rites too weak to counteract your sinful habits, and too poor to purchase pardon and eternal life for you? If the Galatians were turning again to them, it is evident that they had been once addicted to them. And this they might have been, allowing that they had become converts from heathenism to Judaism, and from Judaism to Christianity. This makes the sense consistent between the 8th and 9th verses. ~ Adam Clarke

To the weak and beggarly elements - To the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law, imposing a servitude really not less severe than the customs of paganism. On the word elements, see the note at Gal_4:3. They are called “weak” because they had no power to save the soul; no power to justify the sinner before God. They are called “beggarly” (Greek πτωχὰ ptōcha, poor), because they could not impart spiritual riches. They really could confer few benefits on man. Or it may be, as Locke supposes, because the Law kept people in the poor estate of pupils from the full enjoyment of the inheritance; Gal_4:1-3. ~ Albert Barnes

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 02:14 AM
RoadWarrior

Good point, after Sabbath the disciples gathered together on Saturday night to break bread.

(Biblical Day begins at sunset, i.e. Saturday night = first day.

I don't think that is quite right, based on what we read. The women had gone to the tomb early in the morning, on the first day of the week, and this is "that same day" at evening. So I think it is actually what we call Sunday evening that Jesus appeared to them. I think Fenris says there is a difference between sunset and dark, does anyone remember how that went?

In any case, the writer seems to be making a point that there was a significance in these things happening on the first day of the week. This is, I believe, the reason that many people call it the "Lord's Day" and not the Sabbath. But historically, it seems that the people transferred the thoughts of it being a holy day set aside to the Lord, to the first day of the week.

As the Gentiles were grafted in, the Sabbath concept lost significance, and it was just the Lord's Day. Nevertheless, I grew up in a time when stores were closed on Sunday, and no unnecessary work was done on that day, in respect to the commandment of keeping the day holy.

Man has not always understood the ways of God (guess what, we still fail at that) and many errors have been made along the way. But God is gracious and merciful, and calls us to do the important things - love Him, love our neighbor, love one another.

I don't think He is keeping records on who worships Him when, or which day we set aside for rest.

I do think He wants us to rest.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 02:20 AM
Matthew

Every single time it mentions Paul and Sabbath in the book of Acts what is happening? Answer - synagogue. Where we find mention that he sometimes spoke in the Synagogues to Greeks after "all the Jews" had left. Now, I would believe that believers in Y'shua were either resting or in a Synagogue, or it could be they continued in sin (transgression of the law).

Therefore, it is quite simple to see that after Sabbath, on the first day of the week (saturday night), the believers would gather together. At least, I find it very simple to see.

What is it that a day of rest that God has given us as a gift causes so much enmity within some people?

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 02:23 AM
I don't think He is keeping records on who worships Him when, or which day we set aside for rest.

I do think He wants us to rest.
I do however think He keeps record of those who require day-keeping as a matter of law when the law of Christ requires no such day keeping. Paul used strong words and strong action to defeat those Judaizers of his day.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 02:26 AM
Road

Forgive me, I was referring to the disciples meeting, not the day of Resurrection.

But you are correct, as Gentiles became the majority in the church they certainly did decide to replace God's biblical appointed times with the more comfortable already observed pagan oriented Roman holidays. I am not sure that makes it right, but it is true.

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 02:30 AM
What is it that a day of rest that God has given us as a gift causes so much enmity within some people?
Because one has the freedom in Christ Jesus to observe the Sabbath but one does not have the authority to bind day-keeping where day keeping is not required – that is the Judaizing error opposed by the apostles in the first century and it should be opposed by all of His disciples today. :)

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 02:33 AM
I do however think He keeps record of those who require day-keeping as a matter of law when the law of Christ requires no such day keeping. Paul used strong words and strong action to defeat those Judaizers of his day.


Wow, strong words. I wonder, would you have the same response if we had suggested that people should go to church on Sunday? Or is it only the seventh day Sabbath that qualifies a person as a "day-keeper?"

You might check your definition of Judaizer as no one on this board has dictated the manner in which one embraces God's Word.

I could care less about commandments of men.

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 02:38 AM
I do however think He keeps record of those who require day-keeping as a matter of law when the law of Christ requires no such day keeping. Paul used strong words and strong action to defeat those Judaizers of his day.

None of us should be requiring such of one another. And if someone is doing that to you, I hope that you know you have freedom to not take on that burden.

There are many arguments that perpetually re-cycle on this board as in the broader Christian community, most of which could be resolved by offering as much grace to one another as we want to have given to us.

Jn 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 02:38 AM
But you are correct, as Gentiles became the majority in the church they certainly did decide to replace God's biblical appointed times with the more comfortable already observed pagan oriented Roman holidays. I am not sure that makes it right, but it is true.


You interpretation is not based on what we read in the NT or what history teaches – the celebration of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) as the day that Christ arose from the grave has apostolic sanction (from God). This celebration had nothing to do with Gentile believers changing anything – it was sanctioned and practiced by the apostles from the beginning.
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Dionysius of Corinth mentions Sunday incidentally in a letter to the church of Rome, A.D., 170: "To-day we kept the Lord’s Day holy, in which we read your letter… ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 02:45 AM
None of us should be requiring such of one another. And if someone is doing that to you, I hope that you know you have freedom to not take on that burden.

There are many arguments that perpetually re-cycle on this board as in the broader Christian community, most of which could be resolved by offering as much grace to one another as we want to have given to us.

Jn 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV
I do exercise my freedom but my concern lies with those who are babes in the faith who are easily led astray so I think we must temper our grace to one another with our defense and love of the truth.
"Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:13)

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 02:51 AM
Given, under Gentiles, the Sunday became the day of worship for the Church. But we were speaking of the day of Rest.

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 02:56 AM
I do exercise my freedom but my concern lies with those who are babes in the faith who are easily led astray so I think we must temper our grace to one another with our defense and love of the truth.

"Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." (2 Timothy 1:13)


I agree with this. I have strong feelings about some subjects, and speak to them with conviction and hopefully persuasion when I chat with those who have opposite views. But always I seek to use soft answers and a gentle spirit.

It is not only the other person(s) in the conversation who is/are hearing me, but the others who are reading the thread. There are many people who read our forums that are "guests" and how we treat one another is a witness to the whole wide world.

So I would reverse this "we must temper our grace to one another with our defense and love of the truth" and say this: "we must temper our defense and love of the truth with grace to one another."

The truth given in a harsh way usually falls on deaf ears.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 02:58 AM
Did we become too pushy?

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 03:08 AM
Given, under Gentiles, the Sunday became the day of worship for the Church. But we were speaking of the day of Rest.
Fact – Christians celebrated the resurrection of Christ on the day He arose from the grave (Sunday) from the start of the apostolic church and it had nothing to do with Gentile-Christians. The apostles who were given the keys to the kingdom were all Jewish-Christians who understood well the Sabbath and they met “open the first day of the week” in memory of their Lord. Our “rest” is "in Christ Jesus"…our "rest" is not about latter-day Sabbath-keeping.
"Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
I agree with this. I have strong feelings about some subjects, and speak to them with conviction and hopefully persuasion when I chat with those who have opposite views. But always I seek to use soft answers and a gentle spirit.

It is not only the other person(s) in the conversation who is/are hearing me, but the others who are reading the thread. There are many people who read our forums that are "guests" and how we treat one another is a witness to the whole wide world.

So I would reverse this "we must temper our grace to one another with our defense and love of the truth" and say this: "r."

The truth given in a harsh way usually falls on deaf ears.
You make a good point but I do remember our Lord telling some of His day…"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil…" I reckon there is a time and place for most things but we must temper our defense and love of the truth with grace to one another to the best of our ability. Some just have more ability than others. :)

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 03:16 AM
Did we become too pushy?

A good way to guage if we are becoming too pushy, is to observe the tension in the room, the language in each other's threads. If it begins to escalate, that is a clue.

If it has completely left the OP behind, that is another clue.

One way we can tell that a subject is potentially divisive, is to observe how churches have split over the issue. There is a reason that some churches meet on Sunday and some meet on Friday night, and some on Saturday.

But notice, there is room in our country for all types. I fellowship with people from all three persuasions. I do not allow it to become a division between me and another Christian. We have lots of room to chat about the Lord without ever discussing when to worship.

Today I had lunch in a Turkish restaurant with a lady who drives half an hour to get to her church which worships on Saturday. We never talked about doctrine. We talked about the Lord, we talked about our lives and how we make decisions on when to move. We both agree that we listen to the Lord, and wait for Him to open and close doors for us.

Look for the parts of your faith that are in agreement, and the differences get smaller and smaller.

I think the differences are small stuff, to God.

I still want to hear you all tell me how the when/where/how that you worship blesses you and gives you joy.

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 03:18 AM
God tells us to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. What does that mean exactly? How are we to remember it? How do you keep it Holy?

This is the original post.

How do you remember the Sabbath Day?

How do you keep it Holy?

(If you do these things on Sunday, tell us that.)

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 03:25 AM
There is a temple. We're it. The shadow (a physical building) has been replaced by the true substance intended all along (a spiritual building). That's exactly my point. The animal sacrifices were never intended to continue forever. They were ceremonial (symbolizing something greater). The Sabbath was also a ceremonial law, as I have proved elsewhere.

Even if you could prove that Paul continued practicing the sacrificial system until his death AND could prove that he kept the Sabbath every weekend until his death, that wouldn't make your point. Your job is not to prove what Paul, as a Jew, was in the custom of doing, but what Jesus/Paul taught as a command for all Christians.

You are right about the temple for we are the body of Christ. However, I have to beg the differ on the Sabbath. It is apart of the Ten and was given as a pattern at the Creation and will be associated with the Millenium. Did God not work six days and rest day seven. Did not God say that believers have yet to make it to their eternal Sabbath rest. Heb 9:4. You have not prove this elsewhere, you made an ascertain that is taken out of context. I agree also that the sacrifices are no longer physical in nature by animal foreshadowing but now applied in spiritual application.

talmidim
Aug 19th 2008, 03:31 AM
Hello :)

God (which, of course, includes Jesus)Specifically, the Father or the Son?

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 03:34 AM
Of course you are quite mistaken my friend. You do not understand the term “Judaizer” and you fail to understand who they were and what error they taught but I can assure you the error they taught is the same error being taught on this thread. The “the weak and beggarly elements” is a direct reference to the “ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law” including the ceremonial “keeping” of the seventh day. I would suggest you take a Judaizer 101 course before you embarrass yourself further. And I would advise any on this thread who attempt to impose a servitude on other Christians with the yoke of bondage that ended at the cross to re-think what you do.

To the weak and beggarly elements - After receiving all this, will ye turn again to the ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law - rites too weak to counteract your sinful habits, and too poor to purchase pardon and eternal life for you? If the Galatians were turning again to them, it is evident that they had been once addicted to them. And this they might have been, allowing that they had become converts from heathenism to Judaism, and from Judaism to Christianity. This makes the sense consistent between the 8th and 9th verses. ~ Adam Clarke

To the weak and beggarly elements - To the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law, imposing a servitude really not less severe than the customs of paganism. On the word elements, see the note at Gal_4:3. They are called “weak” because they had no power to save the soul; no power to justify the sinner before God. They are called “beggarly” (Greek πτωχὰ ptōcha, poor), because they could not impart spiritual riches. They really could confer few benefits on man. Or it may be, as Locke supposes, because the Law kept people in the poor estate of pupils from the full enjoyment of the inheritance; Gal_4:1-3. ~ Albert Barnes



How did you just overlook or ignore the Highlighted text. It clearly states from the beginning and even in the highlighted text that he was talking to a gentile congregation that did not know God at one time. Plus he refers to the time when they did not know God as the times that they were given to myths and spirits. Be honest and see for yourself. How can we dialogue if you are not honest. I can embarrass myself, this if for sure, but I have taught the New Testament in Seminary for the last Seven Years. I teach things like context. Who, what, when, where, why, and how. I think I covered this correctly in reference to my notes. Maybe I did not, but you qouting someone else's study is not your own study. Trust me, they get it wrong a lot of times. That is why we have to know for ourself. So be honest and let me know what the context actually says dear sir.

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 04:01 AM
How did you just overlook or ignore the Highlighted text. It clearly states from the beginning and even in the highlighted text that he was talking to a gentile congregation that did not know God at one time. Plus he refers to the time when they did not know God as the times that they were given to myths and spirits. Be honest and see for yourself. How can we dialogue if you are not honest. I can embarrass myself, this if for sure, but I have taught the New Testament in Seminary for the last Seven Years. I teach things like context. Who, what, when, where, why, and how. I think I covered this correctly in reference to my notes. Maybe I did not, but you qouting someone else's study is not your own study. Trust me, they get it wrong a lot of times. That is why we have to know for ourself. So be honest and let me know what the context actually says dear sir.
I think Judaism is the context of the passage in Galatians and pagan Gnosticism can be included but by this time in history and especially in Asia Minor (Galatia was in Anatolia) pagan Gnosticism had merged with elements of mystical Judaism. The point is Christ is the reality – those who came to Christ from the shadows of Judaism, Gnosticism or a mix of the two are warned not to go back to those “weak and beggarly elements”. These elements included rites, ceremonies and Sabbath days that cannot purchase pardon - they only produce servitude and bondage to an obsolete system – the reality is Christ.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 04:38 AM
I think Judaism is the context of the passage in Galatians and pagan Gnosticism can be included but by this time in history and especially in Asia Minor (Galatia was in Anatolia) pagan Gnosticism had merged with elements of mystical Judaism. The point is Christ is the reality – those who came to Christ from the shadows of Judaism, Gnosticism or a mix of the two are warned not to go back to those “weak and beggarly elements”. These elements included rites, ceremonies and Sabbath days that cannot purchase pardon - they only produce servitude and bondage to an obsolete system – the reality is Christ.


Sabbath (or the Torah) is not about pardon, nor was it ever. It is about a day of rest that God called a Moed or appointed time. For example, Yshua said regarding Passover "do this in rememberance of me." Because there is a divine appointment in the days he blesses us with. Sure, to you it is bondage, to me it is a delight as prophesied by Isaiah

Isa 58:13:14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 05:11 AM
Matthew

Every single time it mentions Paul and Sabbath in the book of Acts what is happening? Answer - synagogue. Where we find mention that he sometimes spoke in the Synagogues to Greeks after "all the Jews" had left. Now, I would believe that believers in Y'shua were either resting or in a Synagogue, or it could be they continued in sin (transgression of the law).

Therefore, it is quite simple to see that after Sabbath, on the first day of the week (saturday night), the believers would gather together. At least, I find it very simple to see.

Nobody is surprised that people who had been Sabbath keeping Jews their entire lives would continue keeping such a custom after becoming 'Jews for Jesus' (so to speak). In other words, both sides of this argument EXPECT Paul (as a lifelong Jew) to continue lifelong custom. By definition, a point in which both sides agree doesn't serve either side of a disagreement!

The passages don't tell us Paul's motivation for your observation. Did he go to the synagogue b/c he felt it was commanded? Or did he go b/c there were a lot of people interested in God there to share the Gospel with? Or did he go simply b/c it was his custom?

We can pretty much rule out the first, in my opinion, based on other NT texts written by Paul himself. I'd speculate that his motivation is a mix of the other 2 explanations.


What is it that a day of rest that God has given us as a gift causes so much enmity within some people?I've never seen anyone distressed by the idea of keeping the Sabbath. I've only seen people get, rightfully, distressed when Sabbath keeping is treated as if it's a moral law when it is clearly a ceremonial law. The distress is over the concern that some people are missing the big picture.


You are right about the temple for we are the body of Christ. However, I have to beg the differ on the Sabbath. It is apart of the Ten and was given as a pattern at the Creation and will be associated with the Millenium. Did God not work six days and rest day seven. Did not God say that believers have yet to make it to their eternal Sabbath rest. Heb 9:4. You have not prove this elsewhere, you made an ascertain that is taken out of context. I agree also that the sacrifices are no longer physical in nature by animal foreshadowing but now applied in spiritual application.

You seem to be indicating that the Sabbath is an eternal law for 3 reasons. A) Because it is one of the 10 and B) Because God rested on the 7th Day and C) Because Hebrews speaks of it existing in the future. I submit that all 3 points fail to aid your cause.

A) Nowhere are we told that all 10 of the 10 commandments were moral in nature. Nowhere are we told that they would all apply, as written, to the prophesied New Covenant. Perhaps our western minds like to put everything in neat little packages, but there is simply no mandate that none of the 10 was to be viewed as a ceremonial law. Jesus Himself viewed the Sabbath as ceremonial.

B) God did rest on the 7th Day. This is a 'record' of history, not a 'command' from creation. Nobody here is arguing that 'rest' isn't a good thing. Nobody is arguing that resting on the 7th day is a bad idea. But Genesis doesn't command it. And we have no record of the Pre-Mosaic patriachs keeping the Sabbath separate.

C) First, you mentioned Hebrews 9:4, but I am assuming you meant Hebrews 4:9 which mentions the rest remaining for God's people. But you seem to have totally missed the meaning of this passage. It's not talking about any future observation of Saturday as separate from the other days. It's talking about the rest that we experience in Christ by ceasing from our 'works.' We experience this rest 'Today' as a foretaste and eternally in its fullness. It is a perpetual 'rest,' not a Saturday rest! Hebrews 4 makes my point loud and clear and, so, I definitely appreciate you bringing it into the discussion!


Specifically, the Father or the Son?

In my position, it makes no difference if the Father played that role or the Son or the Spirit or all 3. My position would suffer no wound if the Son Himself spoke the 10 to Israel. (am I to await a response to my question for you?)

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 06:01 AM
Nobody is surprised that people who had been Sabbath keeping Jews their entire lives would continue keeping such a custom after becoming 'Jews for Jesus' (so to speak). In other words, both sides of this argument EXPECT Paul (as a lifelong Jew) to continue lifelong custom. By definition, a point in which both sides agree doesn't serve either side of a disagreement!

The passages don't tell us Paul's motivation for your observation. Did he go to the synagogue b/c he felt it was commanded? Or did he go b/c there were a lot of people interested in God there to share the Gospel with? Or did he go simply b/c it was his custom?

We can pretty much rule out the first, in my opinion, based on other NT texts written by Paul himself. I'd speculate that his motivation is a mix of the other 2 explanations.

I've never seen anyone distressed by the idea of keeping the Sabbath. I've only seen people get, rightfully, distressed when Sabbath keeping is treated as if it's a moral law when it is clearly a ceremonial law. The distress is over the concern that some people are missing the big picture.



You seem to be indicating that the Sabbath is an eternal law for 3 reasons. A) Because it is one of the 10 and B) Because God rested on the 7th Day and C) Because Hebrews speaks of it existing in the future. I submit that all 3 points fail to aid your cause.

A) Nowhere are we told that all 10 of the 10 commandments were moral in nature. Nowhere are we told that they would all apply, as written, to the prophesied New Covenant. Perhaps our western minds like to put everything in neat little packages, but there is simply no mandate that none of the 10 was to be viewed as a ceremonial law. Jesus Himself viewed the Sabbath as ceremonial.

B) God did rest on the 7th Day. This is a 'record' of history, not a 'command' from creation. Nobody here is arguing that 'rest' isn't a good thing. Nobody is arguing that resting on the 7th day is a bad idea. But Genesis doesn't command it. And we have no record of the Pre-Mosaic patriachs keeping the Sabbath separate.

C) First, you mentioned Hebrews 9:4, but I am assuming you meant Hebrews 4:9 which mentions the rest remaining for God's people. But you seem to have totally missed the meaning of this passage. It's not talking about any future observation of Saturday as separate from the other days. It's talking about the rest that we experience in Christ by ceasing from our 'works.' We experience this rest 'Today' as a foretaste and eternally in its fullness. It is a perpetual 'rest,' not a Saturday rest! Hebrews 4 makes my point loud and clear and, so, I definitely appreciate you bringing it into the discussion!



In my position, it makes no difference if the Father played that role or the Son or the Spirit or all 3. My position would suffer no wound if the Son Himself spoke the 10 to Israel. (am I to await a response to my question for you?)

Thanks for your response Matt........ I gets we will have let this go for now...... holla at you later........ :D

Firstfruits
Aug 19th 2008, 06:26 AM
Well, that's the opinion of some people. I think that Jesus was the one who told us which commandments were important.

Remember these?

Love God.
Love your neighbor.

And then Jesus added a third.

Love one another.

So if someone seeks to lay a heavy burden on you, examine the interaction by these three commandments.

If you have trouble knowing what it means to love someone (or whether someone is being loving toward you) go and read 1 Cor 13. By this measure I have been able to make wise decisions about how people are talking to me or treating me.

We do not need to accept the burdens that people sometimes want to lay on our shoulders.

Thanks RoadWarrior,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 06:32 AM
Thanks RoadWarrior,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

How was your day Fruit.......... I hope it was a good day.

BHS
Aug 19th 2008, 01:33 PM
I've never seen anyone distressed by the idea of keeping the Sabbath. I've only seen people get, rightfully, distressed when Sabbath keeping is treated as if it's a moral law when it is clearly a ceremonial law. The distress is over the concern that some people are missing the big picture.

Matthew, I think it is those who want to break the laws down into clear-cut defined categories and especially one of "moral law" that miss the big picture. When we wrestle with contemporary relevance we realize that some laws will fit more than one category.

Christopher J. H. Wright, OT scholar, says "But that does not greatly matter. The exercise in itself will help us gain greater understanding of the law in its own context. The important thing is that in order to make ethical use of the Old Testament we must first step inside it and understand the law from Israel's own social perspective. It is immediately clear that we do not find a separate, textually isolated, category of "moral law" as such. But we do find moral motivation, rationale, objectives and values, sometimes expressed and sometimes implied, in every category of law we identify."

Blessings,
BHS

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 01:58 PM
There is no requirement for Christians to "keep" the 4th commandment - a command given ONLY to the Jews. There is not one instance in the NT where even one Christian was ever commanded to keep that day holy. Those who teach that Christians have a legal requirement to keep the Sabbath teach much error. We are told not to go back under the shadows of the old law with its day-keeping, feists, new moons, etc etc...

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

If you go to the verse before this, you see that Paul is talking about Pagan holidays, and not Jewish days.
8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

Ta-An
Aug 19th 2008, 02:15 PM
If you go to the verse before this, you see that Paul is talking about Pagan holidays, and not Jewish days.
Unfortunately, if you use a NIV study Bible... it is exactly what they say....Jewish holy days :o

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 02:30 PM
Matthew, I think it is those who want to break the laws down into clear-cut defined categories and especially one of "moral law" that miss the big picture. When we wrestle with contemporary relevance we realize that some laws will fit more than one category.

Christopher J. H. Wright, OT scholar, says "But that does not greatly matter. The exercise in itself will help us gain greater understanding of the law in its own context. The important thing is that in order to make ethical use of the Old Testament we must first step inside it and understand the law from Israel's own social perspective. It is immediately clear that we do not find a separate, textually isolated, category of "moral law" as such. But we do find moral motivation, rationale, objectives and values, sometimes expressed and sometimes implied, in every category of law we identify."

Blessings,
BHS

BHS,

While I appreciate the point you raise, I still insist that in distinguishing b/w moral and ceremonial in the case of Sabbath, I am simply following Jesus' lead. For, when He was confronted on these issues, He taught that His Father desires mercy over sacrifice. In other words, Jesus taught that the moral trumps the ceremonial.

I'm not interested in categorizing all the laws and ignoring the one's I decide aren't as morally motivated. What I am interested in is following Jesus' lead in recognizing that some laws were ceremonially and keeping them looks different now that He has come.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 02:33 PM
Unfortunately, if you use a NIV study Bible... it is exactly what they say....Jewish holy days :o

So is this an example of another bad translation of the text found in the NIV and KJV.





4:8 Howbeit (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=235) then (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3303) * (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5119), when ye knew (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1492) (5761 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5761)) not (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3756) God, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316) ye did service (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1398) (5656 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5656)) unto them which by nature (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5449) are (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5607) (5752 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5752)) no (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361) gods. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)
Alla (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=235)tote (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5119)men (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3303) ouk (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3756)eidotev (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1492)(5761 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5761))qeon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)edouleusate (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1398)(5656 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5656))toiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)fusei (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5449)mh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3361) ousin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5607)(5752 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5752)) qeoiv; (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)






4:9 But (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1161) now, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3568) after that ye have known (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1097) (5631 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5631)) God, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316) or (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1161) rather (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3123) are known (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1097) (5685 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5685)) of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5259) God, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316) how (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4459) turn ye (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1994) (5719 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5719)) again (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825) to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1909) the weak (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=772) and (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) beggarly (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4434) elements, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4747) whereunto (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3739) ye desire (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2309) (5719 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5719)) again (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=509) to (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825) be in bondage (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1398) (5721 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5721)) ?
nun (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3568)de (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1161) gnontev (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1097)(5631 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5631)) qeon, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)mallon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3123)de (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1161)gnwsqentev (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1097)(5685 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5685))upo (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5259)qeou, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316)pwv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4459)epistrefete (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1994)(5719 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5719))palin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825)epi (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1909)ta (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588)asqenh (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=772) kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)ptwxa (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4434)stoixeia, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4747)oiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3739)palin (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825)anwqen (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=509)douleuein (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1398) (5721 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5721))qelete? (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2309)(5719 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5719))






4:10 Ye observe (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3906) (5731 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5731)) days, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2250) and (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) months, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3376) and (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) times, (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2540) and (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) years. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1763)
hmerav (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2250) parathreisqe (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3906)(5731 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5731))kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)mhnav (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3376)kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)kairouv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2540)kai (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532) eniautouv. (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1763)




4:9 -But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known R168 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=gal+4%3A9&section=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1#R168) by God, how R169 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=gal+4%3A9&section=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1#R169) is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental R170 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=gal+4%3A9&section=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1#R170) F77 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=gal+4%3A9&section=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1#F77) things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? (ASV)

4:9 - Now, however, that you have come to be acquainted with and understand and know [the true] God, or rather to be understood and known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things [ of all religions before Christ came], whose slaves you once more want to become? (Amplified)

4:9 -but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? (RSV)

4:9 - But now you do know God, and, more than that, you are known by God. So how is it that you turn back again to those weak and miserable elemental spirits? Do you want to enslave yourselves to them once more? (Complete Jewish Bible)

More modern translation do try to expose that this Scripture is really talking about Paganism.

faithfulfriend
Aug 19th 2008, 02:43 PM
God tells us to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. What does that mean exactly? How are we to remember it? How do you keep it Holy?

Got an attachment here that I've typed up concerning the Sabbath and what it is all about. Hope it is a help :) (It's five pages)

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 02:47 PM
You seem to be indicating that the Sabbath is an eternal law for 3 reasons. A) Because it is one of the 10 and B) Because God rested on the 7th Day and C) Because Hebrews speaks of it existing in the future. I submit that all 3 points fail to aid your cause.

I have the view that there is an implied concept of the Sabbath in what is arguably the oldest book of the Bible.
1There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
2Seven sons and three daughters were born to him.
3His possessions also were 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and very many servants; and that man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.
5When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
Israel had 12 sons and that is an explanation for why the nation was made up of 12 tribes.
Job had 7 sons and may be an explanation of why the proto-hebrews kept a seven day cycle.
When the Jews got around to writing out a compilation of writings into what we consider the Old Testament, history was a vague thing to the common man. They forgot why there were twelve tribes and they came up with a plausible reason for it.
When Job's story was put to writing, the people probably forgot why they kept a seven day cycle and this story gave them a plausible reason.
In the time of the Exodus, God had an opportunity to put forth His own explanation for why we keep a seven day cycle. Moses put it into a code to make sure people never forget why we do it.
We, as converted gentiles can observe the Sabbath, not as a covenant, but as a memorial. Jesus gave us a memorial to be kept as a reminder of his death. That is not exactly a law, as we think of the code of Moses being a Law. Jesus said, "Do this." just as God, the Father said, "Do this." in memory of the work of your creator.
Can we safely ignore the Lord's Supper? Why not? Is it a Law? Can we safely ignore the Sabbath? Why not? Is it a Law?
Even if this proclamation of our sins has been nullified, do we disregard every suggestion in the Old Testament for how to behave? No!
Why should we pick out this one commandment to show a special hostility towards? Can we love the Lord of the Sabbath while at the same time spit on the sabbath with hatred? Do we spit on our creator when we spit on the day He made holy?
Keep the Memorial to the Son and the Memorial to the Father and keep your attitudes against the Law out of it. Are you so week that God has to come back and reiterate the Ten Commandments? Do you have a mental block of rebelliousness that stops the Holy Spirit from speaking to you? Keep your stiff necks and go down, if you can not soften your hearts.
Why would we need memorials, in the first place? Because we are stiff necked and rebellious and need to be constantly reminded of where we come from and who died for us. We want to be self sufficient and our own gods but it is not reality. Every week we need a reality check and be humble about our existence being dependent on something outside ourselves.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 02:56 PM
Why should we pick out this one commandment to show a special hostility towards? Can we love the Lord of the Sabbath while at the same time spit on the sabbath with hatred? Do we spit on our creator when we spit on the day He made holy?

I am going to have to guess that you haven't read this thread very well. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, has any hostility toward the Sabbath. Nobody is against anybody keeping it as a memorial, as you suggest. Nobody is spitting on the Sabbath.

I, in fact, encourage people to take a day of rest (and replace the work with special focus on the Lord). But that doesn't change the fact that Sabbath observance, as a command of the Old Testament, was a ceremonial law. It foreshadowed our true 'rest' in Christ. I have no problem with anyone's practice, I am only here b/c of misplaced motivation.

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 03:05 PM
I am going to have to guess that you haven't read this thread very well. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, has any hostility toward the Sabbath. Nobody is against anybody keeping it as a memorial, as you suggest. Nobody is spitting on the Sabbath.

I, in fact, encourage people to take a day of rest (and replace the work with special focus on the Lord). But that doesn't change the fact that Sabbath observance, as a command of the Old Testament, was a ceremonial law. It foreshadowed our true 'rest' in Christ. I have no problem with anyone's practice, I am only here b/c of misplaced motivation.
My whole post may be off-topic. There are two active threads about the Sabbath. This one seems less off-topic for my post than the one about Jesus keeping, or not, the Sabbath. I am carrying over thoughts from the other thread, perhaps. Sorry if I am making false accusations against posters on this thread.

talmidim
Aug 19th 2008, 03:56 PM
Sorry Matthew for not getting back to you sooner. I had to replace my monitor yesterday and have been behind in a number of things.

I asked you about who gave the Ten Commandments and you gave a very non-specific answer. When pressed for specifics you replied (in paraphrase) that it didn't matter. You seem very reluctant to discuss the matter, so I will let it drop. I was just curious what you thought.

You asked about sacrifice. My answer is yes. Romans 12:1 gives a good accounting of the situation under our new High Priest. Because there is no Temple nor access to the Temple mount, offering blood sacrifices is a violation of His statutes anyway. On the other hand, taking up our cross may be a little more literal than most might like to acknowledge.

You keep touting this 'ceremonial law' concept as if it had some basis in scripture. But I can't find it. And I think the Commandments, Statutes and Precepts of our Almighty Creator are not nearly as shallow as your characterization portrays them - and Him for that matter. He is after all, the Word.

This thread is going nowhere. Even the OP has deserted it. Everyone seems so invested in 'their' position that possibilities fall victim to prejudice and open discussion is replaced with this poker game, with all holding their cards close until they can construct some sort of 'ah-ha!' moment. No one is willing to concede anything, even in the face of obvious error. Few seem willing to honestly examine the scriptures in context on this matter, preferring the commentary of other men to the Word of Elohim. And that in my mind is the very definition of 'vain disputations'.

As always I wish you well. But I think I will bow out now.

In His Love,
Phillip

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 04:53 PM
I agree. It is probably a good place to let this debate rest for a while. I also find that once the NT Scriptures are brought into the discussion in this disagreement, we end up NOT talking about the Scriptures anymore. And that is certainly not a good thing. The debate becomes more philisophical (ie, God doesn't change) and less biblical (ie, did Jesus treat Sabbath as ceremonial). For instance, when I replied to the argument that we can't categorize the law with the fact that Jesus did just that, we didn't talk about the NT Scriptures, we decided to go back and debate OT matters that weren't very relevant to the discussion. And then it is claimed that the thread is going nowhere even though I suspect that the thread was just about to go in a direction that some don't like (the NT truth on the matter). This, in my observation, has been the pattern in such debates.

In Christ & God bless,
matthew

Friend of I AM
Aug 19th 2008, 05:02 PM
I agree. It is probably a good place to let this debate rest for a while. I also find that once the NT Scriptures are brought into the discussion in this disagreement, we end up NOT talking about the Scriptures anymore. And that is certainly not a good thing. The debate becomes more philisophical (ie, God doesn't change) and less biblical (ie, did Jesus treat Sabbath as ceremonial). For instance, when I replied to the argument that we can't categorize the law with the fact that Jesus did just that, we didn't talk about the NT Scriptures, we decided to go back and debate OT matters that weren't very relevant to the discussion. And then it is claimed that the thread is going nowhere even though I suspect that the thread was just about to go in a direction that some don't like (the NT truth on the matter). This, in my observation, has been the pattern in such debates.

In Christ & God bless,
matthew

Good points Matthew. Whatever faith a person has regarding the interpretation of this issue, I'm for certain that all men are looking forward to true sabbath rest like Paul...God bless in Christ.

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 05:02 PM
Got an attachment here that I've typed up concerning the Sabbath and what it is all about. Hope it is a help :) (It's five pages)
I went ahead and read your posted linked-to file on the Sabbath.
Part of it has to do with a "Christian Sabbath." You quote some people who would be quoted in something like a catechism. That's nice. Disregard the Bible and use your church fathers to create your own "Sabbath". Well Sunday is not "the" Sabbath or even "a" Sabbath. It is a distinct day set up in opposition to God's day and is the brainchild of a church overrun by pagan sun worshipers. It was not considered a Sabbath and anything remotely reminiscent to the Sabbath was strictly prohibited on the "Lord's day".

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 05:18 PM
I went ahead and read your posted linked-to file on the Sabbath.
Part of it has to do with a "Christian Sabbath." You quote some people who would be quoted in something like a catechism. That's nice. Disregard the Bible and use your church fathers to create your own "Sabbath".

Oh come on! :)

This is a very immature post. Did the poster really 'disregard the Bible' in that link? Did the poster really use the church fathers instead of Scripture to make their point about the Sabbath.

I did a little math for you.

There were 1728 words on that page
~ 1166 of them were verses and/or verse numbers (about 66%)
~ 80 of them were quotes from church fathers (less than 5%)
~ The remainder was summary statements of the Scripture passages, topic headings, and minimal personal commentary (29%)

This is why these debates never go anywhere. Posters try to talk about Scripture and they get accused of, of all things, disregarding the Scriptures just b/c they're pointing out verses the other poster doesn't want to talk about.

Less than 5% of that link quoted the church fathers while about 66% quoted the Bible. I'll let the other posters decide which poster is interested in 'disregarding' the Bible.

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 05:39 PM
Oh come on! :)

This is a very immature post. Did the poster really 'disregard the Bible' in that link? Did the poster really use the church fathers instead of Scripture to make their point about the Sabbath.
I did a little math for you.
Less than 5% of that link quoted the church fathers while about 66% quoted the Bible. I'll let the other posters decide which poster is interested in 'disregarding' the Bible.

The quote to come up with a conclusion to and interpretation of a list of verses is, in part:
“The Sabbath began with Moses.” – Ireneus. “They (the pre-Mosaic saints) did not observe the Sabbath, neither do we.” – Tertullian
These are points that I do not think the verses back up. What difference does percentages mean if you end up with conclusions with nothing but the backing of the Church, as being people who were deemed to be worthy of quoting?
As for disregarding the Bible, I mean about ignoring that the Sabbath was made sacred at the creation.
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 05:49 PM
Yes the impass has probaly been reached thus far. People should be left to honor the day as they are led by the Holy Spirit. It is funny how we proof text certain subjects to death, but no one has said thus said the Lord concerning the matter. Most point to Scripture and teach assumptive messages by proof texting messages. I repeat the authoritative command concerning the Sabbath and others qoute Scripture (not of a command nature) to say that it is not the same anymore. Oh well. The message went forth and others shared their beliefs as well. Respect is respect. Everyone should have their say, then move around until later.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 05:51 PM
These are points that I do not think the verses back up. What difference does percentages mean if you end up with conclusions with nothing but the backing of the Church, as being people who were deemed to be worthy of quoting?

If you disagree with the quotes, then say that (and, preferably, explain why). Don't accuse the poster of 'disregarding the bible' when their post is 66% Bible verses. Obviously the poster felt those verses made a good case for their position. Instead of replying with slander, reply with evidence.


As for disregarding the Bible, I mean about ignoring that the Sabbath was made sacred at the creation.
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”

Nobody is ignoring it. The article the poster linked to didn't ignore the issue of the 7th day in Genesis...


The book of Genesis was not written at the time of creation, but 2,500 years after, and not until the law had been given on Sinai, in which the seventh-day Sabbath had been enjoined upon on the children of Israel. Moses, in writing the history of creation says that “God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work,” etc. (Gen. 2:3). You see at a glance that the sanctifying of the day took place at a later date than God’s rest. The day was not sanctified until God delivered it to Israel on Sinai. (Neh. 9:13-14)

And I certainly didn't ignore it...


B) God did rest on the 7th Day. This is a 'record' of history, not a 'command' from creation. Nobody here is arguing that 'rest' isn't a good thing. Nobody is arguing that resting on the 7th day is a bad idea. But Genesis doesn't command it. And we have no record of the Pre-Mosaic patriachs keeping the Sabbath separate.

So, once again, why use words like 'ignore' for your fellow posters when they are doing no such thing! If you want to participate in a friendly dialogue with other believers, we should, at least, give each other the benefit of the doubt that we are desire to think about the Scriptures responsibly. This is far better than accusing others of 'ignoring' or 'disregarding' the Scriptures.

I, for one, believe that you want to find the truth on this issue and that you want to take the Bible seriously. I disagree with your opinions on these things, but I am not about to accuse you of not having an interest in what the Bible says. Thus, I hope we can return to friendly dialogue minus the accusations.

In Christ,
matthew

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 07:04 PM
Nobody is ignoring it. The article the poster linked to didn't ignore the issue of the 7th day in Genesis...
I was talking about the five page document. Under the heading:
"There was no pre-mosaic Sabbath – no day kept as a rest-day until the Exodus."
is this statement:"The first mention we have in the Bible of the Sabbath as a rest-day enjoined upon man was at least 2,500 years after the creation."

This ignores Genesis. Then the section that you quote in the post that I partially quote here, summarily casts aside the idea that the Sabbath existed before Moses, by quoting Nehemiah.
That was a lecture, recorded in the Book of Nehemiah, by the leaders of the returned exiles on how the Israelites turned away from God's Law. That was concerning the covenant brought by Moses for the people, so they were talking about that law, as presented by Moses.
This was someone's summery of the entire people, up to that time. It is not a direct quote from God and can only be considered in the context of these particular people's opinion.

matthew94
Aug 19th 2008, 07:30 PM
I was talking about the five page document. Under the heading:
"There was no pre-mosaic Sabbath – no day kept as a rest-day until the Exodus."
is this statement:"The first mention we have in the Bible of the Sabbath as a rest-day enjoined upon man was at least 2,500 years after the creation."

This ignores Genesis.

The 5 page document does NOT ignore Genesis. Under the very same heading, the poster included the paragraph about Genesis that I quoted. So stop saying the poster ignores Genesis when the poster specifically comments on what you're referring to.

The 5 page document talks about what the Bible says about the Sabbath. The first mention of the word Sabbath is in Exodus 16, which is the very first passage quoted under that heading. Seems fair to me! But, to be even fairer, the author does indeed mention the passage you are pretending was ignored by discussing the nature of the Genesis passage.


Then the section that you quote in the post that I partially quote here, summarily casts aside the idea that the Sabbath existed before Moses, by quoting Nehemiah.It wasn't 'summarily cast aside'. There's just not much to discuss! The word Sabbath doesn't appear before Exodus 16. The discussion of Genesis 2 was not ignored. What else can be said? We simply don't have evidence that the 'Sabbath' was kept prior to Moses. Do you have biblical or extra-biblical evidence that the Sabbath was commanded prior to Moses by mankind? If so, bring such evidence to the table!

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 10:01 PM
It wasn't 'summarily cast aside'. There's just not much to discuss! The word Sabbath doesn't appear before Exodus 16. The discussion of Genesis 2 was not ignored. What else can be said? We simply don't have evidence that the 'Sabbath' was kept prior to Moses. Do you have biblical or extra-biblical evidence that the Sabbath was commanded prior to Moses by mankind? If so, bring such evidence to the table!
Here is the verse presented as proof that the Sabbath did not exist before Moses from Neh. 9:
13"Then You came down on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven;
You gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments.
14"So You made known to them Your holy sabbath,
And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law,
Through Your servant Moses.
Now here is one of the few verses that use the same form of the Hebrew word translated to make known, from Ps. 127:
10All Your works shall give thanks to You, O LORD,
And Your godly ones shall bless You.
11They shall speak of the glory of Your kingdom
And talk of Your power;
12To make known to the sons of men Your mighty acts
And the glory of the majesty of Your kingdom.
Did the mighty acts exist before they were shown to men? I would say yes. God came down to Sinai to show the people His Sabbath, after the full meaning of it seemed to have been lost from the memory of men.
Here is a coupe of verses from Genesis 8 where there seemed to be a seven day cycle in use in the day of Noah:
10So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark.
12Then he waited yet another seven days, and sent out the dove; but she did not return to him again.

Ethnikos
Aug 19th 2008, 10:38 PM
Here is some extra-Biblical evidence.
From Wikipedia:

The Westminster Confession of Faith is a Reformed confession of faith, in the Calvinist theological tradition. Although drawn up by the 1646 Westminster Assembly, largely of the Church of England, it became and remains the 'subordinate standard' of doctrine in the Church of Scotland, and has been influential within Presbyterian churches worldwide.
Here is a section from this confession:



Westminster Confession of Faith 21:7

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

These people believed that there was the Creation Sabbath and the Levitical Sabbath. The Creation Sabbath was a moral Law that was in place since creation and is still in force, today. The Levitical aspects of the Sabbath were added later, and were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer in affect.
That part I agree with but not the part about it being changed from Saturday to Sunday. They use some flimsy evidence for that.
So I am showing this as something that demonstrates that it not some sort of aberration to think that there is a permanent Law that exists outside the Mosaic Code. This has been accepted by most major Christian religions.

Firstfruits
Aug 19th 2008, 10:51 PM
How was your day Fruit.......... I hope it was a good day.

Hi Manichunter,

Considering the understanding that unless the sabbath that is kept is as God gave it and knowing that the sabbath law today is not according to what God has commanded, how can we keep that which if not as God gave, if it is not from God? Who's laws are to be obeyed God or man?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 10:53 PM
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Did the mighty acts exist before they were shown to men? I would say yes. God came down to Sinai to show the people His Sabbath, after the full meaning of it seemed to have been lost from the memory of men.
Here is a coupe of verses from Genesis 8 where there seemed to be a seven day cycle in use in the day of Noah:
10So he waited yet another seven days; and again he sent out the dove from the ark.
12Then he waited yet another seven days, and sent out the dove; but she did not return to him again.


The fact that Noah waited “seven days” before releasing the dove does not in any way prove that man "kept" the Sabbath before it was given to the Jews at Sinai. You will need more "proof" than a seven day dove story that proves nothing. Again, the word “Sabbath” is not even found in the book of Genesis which does great damage to the notion God commanded the Sabbath law to be kept holy to ALL men before He gave it specifically and exclusively to the Hebrew nation after their deliverance from Egyptian slavery.

Actually, the Bible tells us exactly when the Sabbath law was made known to man and it was long after the Patriarchs were dead and gathered with their fathers. The book of Nehemiah tells us when this revelation took place – it happened at that time in history when God…
”came down also upon mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them right ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and made known unto them thy holy Sabbath?” (Nehemiah 9:13-14).
It was completely unknown to man until that specific time in history. Any one can read their Bible and clearly see the Sabbath was not “made known” to mankind until after the Jews were delivered by God’s hand from Egypt. It was never give to man before that time and it was never given to all men as some suggest on this thread. Hear the words of God one more time…
“Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” (Deuteronomy 5:3).Please note - God told the Hebrew nation that He did not give the Sabbath law to their “fathers” why – because it was exclusively for the Jews – God’s peculiar people. And the NT is clear Christian are “dead” to the Law of Moses (including the 10 Commandant Law). Christians are “under the law to Christ” (1 Cor. 9:21) and His law is not about “day-keeping”. The old priesthood has been changed and that of necessity required a change in the Law - the Law of Moses was "nailed to the cross" and that law included the Sabbath law given to the Jews...
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12 (KJV)

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 11:05 PM
Hi Manichunter,

Considering the understanding that unless the sabbath that is kept is as God gave it and knowing that the sabbath law today is not according to what God has commanded, how can we keep that which if not as God gave, if it is not from God? Who's laws are to be obeyed God or man?

Firstfruits

NO servile/labor on the day, and keep it sanctified. That is the bottom line of the commandment.

Ex 20:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - but the seventh day is a Shabbat for ADONAI your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work -not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the for eigner staying with you inside the gates to your property. Ex 20:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - "Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God. Ex 31:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+31:16&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The people of Isra'el are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant. That is about it. Everything else was given by the Israelite commentary. What you say is not found in the Bible but the Talmid, Mishah, and the likes.

losthorizon
Aug 19th 2008, 11:09 PM
Here is some extra-Biblical evidence.
From Wikipedia:

Here is a section from this confession:


Are you suggesting the Westminster Confession of Faith is the word of God? Are we as Christians bound by that confession? The Sabbath was never changed to the first day of the week – the Sabbath is yet the Sabbath – the seventh day of the week – the first day of the week is yet Sunday and always will be. The notion that Sunday is the “Christian Sabbath” is a teaching of man and is not supported by Holy Writ. Christians from the apostolic era until today have assembled on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to celebrate His resurrection from the grave which took place on the first day of the week…
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene...

BHS
Aug 19th 2008, 11:53 PM
BHS,

While I appreciate the point you raise, I still insist that in distinguishing b/w moral and ceremonial in the case of Sabbath, I am simply following Jesus' lead. For, when He was confronted on these issues, He taught that His Father desires mercy over sacrifice. In other words, Jesus taught that the moral trumps the ceremonial.

I'm not interested in categorizing all the laws and ignoring the one's I decide aren't as morally motivated. What I am interested in is following Jesus' lead in recognizing that some laws were ceremonially and keeping them looks different now that He has come.

It is your use of the word "trumps" that is incorrect. The law allows for and includes the moral, as did all the "laws". It only looks different to those who choose to set aside the seventh day as holy.

BHS

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 12:31 AM
Here is the verse presented as proof that the Sabbath did not exist before Moses from Neh. 9...

Now here is one of the few verses that use the same form of the Hebrew word translated to make known, from Ps. 127...

Did the mighty acts exist before they were shown to men? I would say yes. God came down to Sinai to show the people His Sabbath, after the full meaning of it seemed to have been lost from the memory of men.

Thanks for your response and utilization of Scriptures :)

I have a few points to make in response:

First, the burden of proof is on the one claiming the Sabbath law existed before the Sabbath law is given, not the other way around. The one recognizing that Sabbath isn't mentioned before Exodus 16 does not have to prove that it isn't mentioned. We all know that it isn't.

Second, we all agree that God rested on the 7th day. We all agree that God made this known to the Israelites. We all agree that this was the link from creation week to the Old Covenant. Once again, a point on which both sides agree serves nobody. Your job is to provide evidence that God required Sabbath observance before Exodus 16. Your job is not to prove that their was a 7 day week or that God rested on the 7th day of creation week. Your job is to prove that people are, at all times throughout history, supposed to keep Saturday separate.



Here is a coupe of verses from Genesis 8 where there seemed to be a seven day cycle in use in the day of Noah:
Of course, this says nothing about Sabbath law. We're all content with the idea of a 7 day week.


Here is some extra-Biblical evidence.
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Westminster Confession of Faith is a Reformed confession of faith, in the Calvinist theological tradition. Although drawn up by the 1646 Westminster Assembly, largely of the Church of England, it became and remains the 'subordinate standard' of doctrine in the Church of Scotland, and has been influential within Presbyterian churches worldwide.

Here is a section from this confession:

Quote:
Westminster Confession of Faith 21:7
VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

These people believed that there was the Creation Sabbath and the Levitical Sabbath. The Creation Sabbath was a moral Law that was in place since creation and is still in force, today. The Levitical aspects of the Sabbath were added later, and were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer in affect.
That part I agree with but not the part about it being changed from Saturday to Sunday. They use some flimsy evidence for that.
So I am showing this as something that demonstrates that it not some sort of aberration to think that there is a permanent Law that exists outside the Mosaic Code. This has been accepted by most major Christian religions.Thank you for providing this. No doubt, from the 4th century onward, Christians have been very confused about the Sabbath (b/c of Constantine's confusion). I'll take the early church fathers quoted in the 5 page document over a 17th century document anyday! I was actually looking for ancient sources that the Sabbath was considered a moral law (as in, ancient Jewish sources from around the time of Jesus). It is interesting that you confronted the previous poster over quoting sources from the 2nd to 4th centuries, but you are quite willing to use sources from the 17th century when they better fit your opinions.

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 12:35 AM
It is your use of the word "trumps" that is incorrect. The law allows for and includes the moral, as did all the "laws". It only looks different to those who choose to set aside the seventh day as holy.

BHS

I won't argue over words that aren't used in the Bible. If you don't like the term 'trumps' then I will not fight for it. But what is clear as day is the idea that when a moral law and a ceremonial law butted heads, Jesus wanted adherence to the moral law to win the day. Hungry people get to eat ceremonial bread. Priests better obey God and work on the Sabbath despite the command. Ceremonial bread and Sabbath days were for a time, but a moral response to God is of eternal value.

Emanate
Aug 20th 2008, 04:19 AM
what does "Remember the Sabbath day...." mean?

perhaps "remember" does mean this is the first time you have heard of this. or maybe it means remember until salvation comes, then disregard.

Vhayes
Aug 20th 2008, 04:28 AM
God "rested" on the Sabbath Day from what? His work (and I don't think He was tired)

The Isarelites "rested" from their what? Their work and their day to day observance of what? The Law - why?- so they could have a day set aside to contemplate God and all the wonderous things He had done for them.

Christians are told to "rest" by entering into their Sabbath. Why? Because the "work" for salvation has been done - it was completed 2,000 years ago.

Each day is the Sabbath Day for Christians - we rest in the finished work of Christ and contemplate the wonderous things He has done for us.

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 04:35 AM
what does "Remember the Sabbath day...." mean?

perhaps "remember" does mean this is the first time you have heard of this. or maybe it means remember until salvation comes, then disregard.

Remember means what it usually means in the Bible, namely, to actively keep something. It's like when the Bible says that God will remember our sins no more. Does this mean that an all knowing God literally stops knowing our past? I don't believe so. It means He no longer actively holds our past against us. To 'remember' the Sabbath doesn't assume that it was a past law, but that they were commanded to actively obey it each week.

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 06:06 AM
The fact that Noah waited “seven days” before releasing the dove does not in any way prove that man "kept" the Sabbath before it was given to the Jews at Sinai. You will need more "proof" than a seven day dove story that proves nothing. Again, the word “Sabbath” is not even found in the book of Genesis which does great damage to the notion God commanded the Sabbath law to be kept holy to ALL men before He gave it specifically and exclusively to the Hebrew nation after their deliverance from Egyptian slavery.
People have a reason why they keep a certain cycle of days and a reason for the number in that cycle. Job and Noah are shown to have kept a seven day cycle. When the Israelites were in Egypt, the national "week" was ten days, and they most likely did not have many days off, since they were slaves.
God had to get the Israelites straightened out and He started out using the Manna miracle to teach them to get back into the old seven day cycle.
As for the word sabbath not being in Genesis, that may be because it was written before that word was borrowed from the Assyrians.

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 06:36 AM
Any one can read their Bible and clearly see the Sabbath was not “made known” to mankind until after the Jews were delivered by God’s hand from Egypt. It was never give to man before that time and it was never given to all men as some suggest on this thread. Hear the words of God one more time…

“Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” (Deuteronomy 5:3).
Please note - God told the Hebrew nation that He did not give the Sabbath law to their “fathers” why – because it was exclusively for the Jews – God’s peculiar people.
Plenty of people read that same text and do not get the same thing you do out of it. It may be not that clear. The new thing that happened at Sinai was how the Sabbath was Incorporated into a covenant.
Before that the seventh day was a sacred day but there may not have been a formal law, like we see Moses putting in place. He had to organize and regulate a whole nation. The old Sabbath was something sheep herders did on their own, out in their encampments, without the police having to enforce it.
BTW, Deuteronomy 5:3 does not say sabbath law, it says covenant.

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 06:54 AM
Are you suggesting the Westminster Confession of Faith is the word of God? Are we as Christians bound by that confession? The Sabbath was never changed to the first day of the week – the Sabbath is yet the Sabbath – the seventh day of the week – the first day of the week is yet Sunday and always will be. The notion that Sunday is the “Christian Sabbath” is a teaching of man and is not supported by Holy Writ. Christians from the apostolic era until today have assembled on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to celebrate His resurrection from the grave which took place on the first day of the week…

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene...

I was not using the Westminster Confession of Faith as some sort of authority. I was using it as an example of the widespread acknowledgment by Bible scholars that the sabbath existed outside of the Levitical laws put forth by Moses. Your claim is that any right thinking person will reject the idea that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. These people do not agree.
As for the Lord's day, you can not find it in the Bible or the early writers where the words "lord's day" and "first day of the week" appear in the same sentence.

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 07:21 AM
...Your job is to provide evidence that God required Sabbath observance before Exodus 16...Your job is to prove that people are, at all times throughout history, supposed to keep Saturday separate.
...I'll take the early church fathers quoted in the 5 page document over a 17th century document anyday!... It is interesting that you confronted the previous poster over quoting sources from the 2nd to 4th centuries, but you are quite willing to use sources from the 17th century when they better fit your opinions.
Nice that you ignore Exodus 16 and move the time to before that to when I would have to show proof. Did you ever think that Exodus 16 is part of the proof? The seventh day was set apart as sacred from creation on.
Have you read the writings from the 2nd to 4th centuries? You trust them over the reformers? That is your choice. I do not see the early writers as being very enlightened. A bunch of rumor mongers and pagans and full of stuff we would not recognize today as logic. They were the early version of the CIA and had alliances and intrigue we can only imagine. I find them to be totally unreliable. We know more about the Bible today than they did. The reformers are enlightened and took advantage of a great increase in human understanding and a better understanding of scripture.
I was being critical of that document because it used these neat little quotes to put a stop to argument, exactly the way they are used in the catechism. I am not a Catholic and I do not accept that as a substitute for a decent argument. My use of the Confession was not to be an authoritative answer but an illustration of how mainline churches do accept that the sabbath was observed by God's people before Moses. I feel like I am being treated like some kind of freak when I am at a loss to what religion taught you this stuff that you espouse. Did you make it up?

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 08:29 AM
Remember means what it usually means in the Bible, namely, to actively keep something. It's like when the Bible says that God will remember our sins no more. Does this mean that an all knowing God literally stops knowing our past? I don't believe so. It means He no longer actively holds our past against us. To 'remember' the Sabbath doesn't assume that it was a past law, but that they were commanded to actively obey it each week.
Here is a verse that uses the same form of the Hebrew as in Exodus 20:8.
3Moses said to the people, "Remember this day in which you went out from Egypt, from the house of slavery; for by a powerful hand the LORD brought you out from this place And nothing leavened shall be eaten.
4"On this day in the month of Abib, you are about to go forth.
5"It shall be when the LORD brings you to the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, which He swore to your fathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, that you shall observe this rite in this month.
6"For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD.
7"Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders.
8"You shall tell your son on that day, saying, 'It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.'
9"And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.
10"Therefore, you shall keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year.
So, it gives a funny kind of double meaning, from the way I look at it. Moses is saying that you need to mindful of this day, in the present tense. In the future, you are to consider it as a past event. Then you have to observe it as an ongoing thing to remember on a regular bases.
I guess from this, you can see how this word could be used concerning the Sabbath. It would be as if God is saying, to be mindful of this day, now. In the future, to consider the past event (creation) that it signifies. Then, to observe it on a regular basis (weekly) , on into the future.

losthorizon
Aug 20th 2008, 12:33 PM
People have a reason why they keep a certain cycle of days and a reason for the number in that cycle. Job and Noah are shown to have kept a seven day cycle. When the Israelites were in Egypt, the national "week" was ten days, and they most likely did not have many days off, since they were slaves.
God had to get the Israelites straightened out and He started out using the Mana miracle to teach them to get back into the old seven day cycle.
As for the word sabbath not being in Genesis, that may be because it was written before that word was borrowed from the Assyrians.
No matter which way you choose to spin your notion the biblical facts remain what they are – (1) the word “Sabbath” does not appear in the book of Genesis, (2) there is no command for anyone prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai commanded to “keep” the seventh day of the week holy, (3) we know exactly when and to whom the 4th commandment was given – the Hebrew nation only - at Sinai, (4) not one Christian and not one Gentile was ever commanded to “keep” that day as a matter of law. Christians today have the freedom in Christ to honor that day if they choose but anyone who makes “keeping” that day a matter of law stand condemned just as the Judaizers of old were condemned for compelling the weak in faith to go back under the shadows of Judaism - take heed lest ye fall. The law of Christ is not about "day-keeping".

BHS
Aug 20th 2008, 12:55 PM
I won't argue over words that aren't used in the Bible. If you don't like the term 'trumps' then I will not fight for it. But what is clear as day is the idea that when a moral law and a ceremonial law butted heads, Jesus wanted adherence to the moral law to win the day. Hungry people get to eat ceremonial bread. Priests better obey God and work on the Sabbath despite the command. Ceremonial bread and Sabbath days were for a time, but a moral response to God is of eternal value.

What is clear to me is that since all the "laws" had some moral significance, those who want to make a special category of moral laws do so to defend their position of interpretation. Social justice has always been the heart of God to help the weak, defend the poor and take care of those who are needy. It was a given, as it was built into the very essence of God's loving instructions.

Blessings,
BHS

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 02:57 PM
Nice that you ignore Exodus 16 and move the time to before that to when I would have to show proof. Did you ever think that Exodus 16 is part of the proof? The seventh day was set apart as sacred from creation on.

Oh brother. We're back to you using the word 'ignore' of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? I was hoping we could return to friendly dialogue (and we seemed to be doing just that), but now the conversation is de-evolving again. My point in focusing on Pre-mosaic examples of Sabbath observance/command was clear and purposeful. I wasn't avoiding Exodus 16 (I've said plenty about what the OT does say about Sabbath).


Have you read the writings from the 2nd to 4th centuries? You trust them over the reformers? That is your choice. I do not see the early writers as being very enlightened. A bunch of rumor mongers and pagans and full of stuff we would not recognize today as logic. They were the early version of the CIA and had alliances and intrigue we can only imagine. I find them to be totally unreliable. We know more about the Bible today than they did. The reformers are enlightened and took advantage of a great increase in human understanding and a better understanding of scripture.

I've read quite a lot of them, yes. Do I trust them over the reformers? Some of them (I'm not about to make a generalized blanket statement, of course). In a lot of ways, the reformers only reformed the church back to it's 4th or 5th century (Augustinian) history. They should have gone farther (like back to Jesus and the earliest Christians). I'm an anabaptist at heart (for the radical reformation, you know, the guys who were persecuted by both the Catholics & Reformers.

You made the following statements about the early church fathers:

- not 'very enlightened'
- a 'bunch of rumor mongers'
- 'pagan'
- Illogical
- Corrupt
- 'Totally unreliable'
- Uninformed

I suppose it is of no use to try to change a mind that is so made up! But I suggest, to others reading this thread, that many of the early church fathers were great men of God. They were in closer proximity to Jesus and the Apostles and, in that way, may have understood them much better than we do in what this poster calls our better human understanding and logic.


I was being critical of that document because it used these neat little quotes to put a stop to argument, exactly the way they are used in the catechism. I am not a Catholic and I do not accept that as a substitute for a decent argument. My use of the Confession was not to be an authoritative answer but an illustration of how mainline churches do accept that the sabbath was observed by God's people before Moses. I feel like I am being treated like some kind of freak when I am at a loss to what religion taught you this stuff that you espouse. Did you make it up?

We are all, hopefully, coming to our views b/c of the Bible. As a Christian, my master is Jesus Christ. I study what Jesus said about Sabbath and how Jesus acted in regard to Sabbath and come to the strong conclusion that He considered Sabbath a ceremonial law that was merely a shadow of the rest that we have in Him. This fits perfectly with my understanding of the 7th day of creation and the Sabbath law of the Old Covenant and the teachings of the epistles in the New Covenant.

Now, I'm going to try to turn this thread back toward the opening posters purpose. Some, here, are making the case that we should return to the policy of separating Saturday as a day of rest and assembly. I'm not against that (except I'd replace 'should' with 'could'). In our fast paced culture, it is, perhaps, more important than ever to have a day of rest and re-focusing on the Lord. I just have no qualms with someone picking Tuesday or Friday to do such. And I don't think Jesus does either.

But in the grand scheme of things, my position does not eliminate the Sabbath. My position is not about LOWERING the Saturday to the non-sacred realm of Tuesday & Friday, but about RAISING Tuesday & Friday to the sacred realm ALONG WITH Saturday. Every day is sacred to the Lord. Every day I rest in Him. Every day I cease attempting a works-based righteousness. I celebrate a perpetual sabbath. The ironic aspect to this whole debate is that the 'perpetual sabbath' crowd celebrates the fulfillment of sabbath 7x as much as the sabbatarians celebrate their sacred day.

Ethnikos
Aug 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
I've read quite a lot of them, yes. Do I trust them over the reformers? Some of them (I'm not about to make a generalized blanket statement, of course). In a lot of ways, the reformers only reformed the church back to it's 4th or 5th century (Augustinian) history. They should have gone farther (like back to Jesus and the earliest Christians). I'm an anabaptist at heart (for the radical reformation, you know, the guys who were persecuted by both the Catholics & Reformers.
I suppose it is of no use to try to change a mind that is so made up! But I suggest, to others reading this thread, that many of the early church fathers were great men of God. They were in closer proximity to Jesus and the Apostles and, in that way, may have understood them much better than we do in what this poster calls our better human understanding and logic.
We are all, hopefully, coming to our views b/c of the Bible. As a Christian, my master is Jesus Christ. I study what Jesus said about Sabbath and how Jesus acted in regard to Sabbath and come to the strong conclusion that He considered Sabbath a ceremonial law that was merely a shadow of the rest that we have in Him. This fits perfectly with my understanding of the 7th day of creation and the Sabbath law of the Old Covenant and the teachings of the epistles in the New Covenant.
I just have no qualms with someone picking Tuesday or Friday to do such. And I don't think Jesus does either.
Every day I cease attempting a works-based righteousness. I celebrate a perpetual sabbath.
You should look into these people. The closest to Christ was Ireneus who knew Polycarp who was reputed as being a disciple of John. He was some sort of government agent and traveled about the empire and was was involved in wars. They were already going about trying to put down heretics and they had an agenda. Once you go past one generation from the Apostles you get pure pagans who are nothing like the original Christians.
Are you afraid that someone is going to be offended by knocking on one of their favorite writers? If they love them so much, they should go ahead and make a defense for them.
I am not trying to put you down, personally. It just happens that you keep posting on this thread. I think you and everyone else is responsible for making up your own mind about one day or another. I would like to be free to worship on the day that I choose. I would not bother writing any of this stuff if I felt things were going to go on like they are now, forever. I may just be more keenly aware than you of the potential problems that can happen.
I downloaded a pdf file today of an old legal book written by a university law professor about Sabbath law in the US. He goes into the history of Sunday worship and quotes all these early writers and shows how the Sabbath existed before Moses and was transfered to Sunday after Christ rose. So, he concludes that Sunday is a legitimate Sabbath and can be enforced by state laws. He even cites that it is an American idea and is in the Constitution.
The history of it is (this professor goes into a detailed analysis of) that some Christians continued on with keeping the Jewish Sabbath and some kept Sunday and Saturday. It quickly went over to almost universal Sunday worship once the older Christians died off. They just transfered the name sabbath over to Sunday. Then they passed laws to enforce Sunday worship in civil matters. Then they made religious laws against the seventh day Sabbath. So, we are stuck with this situation that, like it or not, there is a de facto sabbath, and it is Sunday.
This is backed up legally and any state can make whatever laws they want,to enforce it.
Back to the real Sabbath, I would like to make a couple arguments in favor of it.
The ten commandments was the law of god, not the law of moses. Moses gave a civil code. These (the Ten Commandments) were given directly by God and is separate from any ceremonial laws given by Moses that may have been fulfilled and ended.
There was a law of God that existed before Moses. It is spoken about in Genesis, concerning Abraham.
Genesis 26:5because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 07:49 PM
1. I doubt, seriously, that you want anything to do with a comparison game b/w the levels of righteousness and morality of the early church fathers vs. the reformers! (Are you aware of some of Calvin's policies or Luther's late-life attitudes?). But in the end, this is not a debate about the righteousness of one man vs. another, but about the ARGUMENTS they made and how those arguments match up with the Scriptures.

2. Yes, upon Constantine's 'conversion' the Christians started to think of Sunday as the new Sabbath. At best, this was a historical mistake on their part. My guess is that early on most Christians kept the Sabbath for the simple fact that they were cultural Jews. But they didn't think they 'had' to, they did so b/c they liked to. Then, as time went on, more and more gentiles became Christians and had no cultural pull to keep Sabbath. The Jewish believers, then, took one of two positions: A) Try to make the gentiles keep Sabbath (Judaize them) or B) Recognize that it's just a cultural preference at this point. Most of the Jewish believers chose position B. Pretty soon, the majority of Christians were gentiles (including the church fathers) and wrote against the judaizers and position A. Constantine was ignorant of all of this. He found Christians treating Sunday specially and assumed it matched up with the OT Sabbath. Since most Roman citizens were now nominal or new Christians, they didn't know any better to correct him. And since the clergy was now his staff, they may not have wanted to correct him. So Sunday was now viewed as the Sabbath.

3. Nobody is denying that the 10 commandments 'was' the law of God. You, however, have done nothing to prove that the 10 commandments were exclusively moral in nature or that the Sabbath was to be kept prior to Moses. You keep stating that, but you haven't made a good case for it (but that's not your fault, there isn't a case to be made).

manichunter
Aug 20th 2008, 10:21 PM
1. I doubt, seriously, that you want anything to do with a comparison game b/w the levels of righteousness and morality of the early church fathers vs. the reformers! (Are you aware of some of Calvin's policies or Luther's late-life attitudes?). But in the end, this is not a debate about the righteousness of one man vs. another, but about the ARGUMENTS they made and how those arguments match up with the Scriptures.

2. Yes, upon Constantine's 'conversion' the Christians started to think of Sunday as the new Sabbath. At best, this was a historical mistake on their part. My guess is that early on most Christians kept the Sabbath for the simple fact that they were cultural Jews. But they didn't think they 'had' to, they did so b/c they liked to. Then, as time went on, more and more gentiles became Christians and had no cultural pull to keep Sabbath. The Jewish believers, then, took one of two positions: A) Try to make the gentiles keep Sabbath (Judaize them) or B) Recognize that it's just a cultural preference at this point. Most of the Jewish believers chose position B. Pretty soon, the majority of Christians were gentiles (including the church fathers) and wrote against the judaizers and position A. Constantine was ignorant of all of this. He found Christians treating Sunday specially and assumed it matched up with the OT Sabbath. Since most Roman citizens were now nominal or new Christians, they didn't know any better to correct him. And since the clergy was now his staff, they may not have wanted to correct him. So Sunday was now viewed as the Sabbath.

3. Nobody is denying that the 10 commandments 'was' the law of God. You, however, have done nothing to prove that the 10 commandments were exclusively moral in nature or that the Sabbath was to be kept prior to Moses. You keep stating that, but you haven't made a good case for it (but that's not your fault, there isn't a case to be made).

I guess you can tell me what is ceremonical about. I cannot see anything ceremonial about it other than the required assembling of the bretheren (holy convocation) on the day.

I have another question. Why did God create the universe in six days and rest on the seventh? What was He trying to convey to us? Was He setting a pattern or giving us a prophetic picture?


I tell you what seems good to me. Yeshua said the Sabbath was given by Yahweh to man as a gift. He said the Sabbath was made for man, and man was not made for Sabbath. Hence man was created first then the day of rest followed immediately. I am going to take advantage of the gift that was made for me. It is a personal matter. We either accept the gift or reject the gift. What are we saying when we reject or accept something that was made for us? Are we saying that we do not need it or that we do need it? I do not know, but I want to discover more of what God has made for me............

Emanate
Aug 20th 2008, 10:29 PM
Constantine was ignorant of all of this. He found Christians treating Sunday specially and assumed it matched up with the OT Sabbath. Since most Roman citizens were now nominal or new Christians, they didn't know any better to correct him. And since the clergy was now his staff, they may not have wanted to correct him. So Sunday was now viewed as the Sabbath.


I would respectfully submit that you study your history about Constantine. Constantine was into Mithraism, as were many Romans at the time. Mithraists, celebrated the rebirth of Mithra on December 25, celebrated the the Day of the Sun, ...etc... Constantine's "conversion" after seeing the sign of the cross in the sky (also from the roman zodiac - the symbol for Tammuz). It was much easier to continue in the pagan tradition and now christianize all of its symbols and observances than it was to bow down to those backwards troublemakers, the Jews. Plus, it is much easier for a pagan to convert to a religion, if all of the same symbolism and practice is observed (especially when "imitating" Jews brought death). Constantine was a glorified pagan. He was also brilliant in that this act kept him from losing the splintered Roman Empire. Unfortunately, it allowed a Pagan to decide Christian practice for near 200 years.

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 10:43 PM
I would respectfully submit that you study your history about Constantine.

Based on what you said, I'm not sure where we disagree! We both have serious doubts about Constantine's conversion and believe the church went the wrong direction under his leadership. Eh?

losthorizon
Aug 20th 2008, 10:45 PM
He goes into the history of Sunday worship and quotes all these early writers and shows how the Sabbath existed before Moses and was transfered to Sunday after Christ rose.


To dispel a couple of myths being floated here – first, no one denies the seven day of the week has existed from Creation until today (it has) – “on the seventh day God ended his work …he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.” The controversy being discussed is when did God make that day know to His creation and to whom was it revealed and commanded. Again, this is plainly revealed to any who wish to read about it – God “made known unto them [the Jews] His holy Sabbath” at Horeb and not before that time (Nehemiah 9:13-14). And to which people did He make the Sabbath known? Again, the answer is clear - “Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” [the Hebrew nation] (Deuteronomy 5:3). God never made the covenant that included the 4th commandment “with their fathers” – it was made only with the Hebrew nation and not until Siani. Sabbath-keeping was not continued on into the New Testament economy – Christians have neve been under “law” to "keep" any day holy.

Second, the Sabbath was never “transferred to Sunday” this is a non-biblical notion. There were many Jewish-Christians who retained their tradition of Sabbath observance and who also assembled on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to celebrate the resurrection of the Messiah – Jesus Christ arose from the grave on the first day of the week - not the seventh day. The seventh day is still the seventh day and the fist day is still the first day – nothing has been "transferred". The apostolic church has assembled on the first day of the week for over 20 centuries and it will continue to do so “until He comes.”

matthew94
Aug 20th 2008, 10:48 PM
I guess you can tell me what is ceremonical about. I cannot see anything ceremonial about it other than the required assembling of the bretheren (holy convocation) on the day.

Ceremonial law was meant to foreshadow the work of Christ. Just like the scapegoat foreshadowed Jesus taking our sins away. Once Christ came, the scapegoat was no longer necessary (it could still be practiced as a reminder of what Jesus did, I suppose). The Sabbath foreshadowed 'the rest' (as Hebrews phrases it) that we can experience b/c of Christ. Now that Christ has come, we can rest in Him. Annual scapegoats were replaced by 1 man. Weekly Sabbaths were replaced by eternal rest.


I have another question. Why did God create the universe in six days and rest on the seventh? What was He trying to convey to us? Was He setting a pattern or giving us a prophetic picture?

Exactly what I just talked about.


I tell you what seems good to me. Yeshua said the Sabbath was given by Yahweh to man as a gift. He said the Sabbath was made for man, and man was not made for Sabbath. Hence man was created first then the day of rest followed immediately. I am going to take advantage of the gift that was made for me. It is a personal matter. We either accept the gift or reject the gift. What are we saying when we reject or accept something that was made for us? Are we saying that we do not need it or that we do need it? I do not know, but I want to discover more of what God has made for me............

I want to receive the gift in the manner God wants me to receive it. I'll receive it 7x! I'll celebrate a perpetual Sabbath! I'll constantly rest from works and trust that Jesus has brought me peace.

Emanate
Aug 20th 2008, 11:24 PM
Matthew

Agreed kind sir

manichunter
Aug 20th 2008, 11:26 PM
Ceremonial law was meant to foreshadow the work of Christ. Just like the scapegoat foreshadowed Jesus taking our sins away. Once Christ came, the scapegoat was no longer necessary (it could still be practiced as a reminder of what Jesus did, I suppose). The Sabbath foreshadowed 'the rest' (as Hebrews phrases it) that we can experience b/c of Christ. Now that Christ has come, we can rest in Him. Annual scapegoats were replaced by 1 man. Weekly Sabbaths were replaced by eternal rest.



Exactly what I just talked about.



I want to receive the gift in the manner God wants me to receive it. I'll receive it 7x! I'll celebrate a perpetual Sabbath! I'll constantly rest from works and trust that Jesus has brought me peace.

Thanks for the response kind sir...........

Ethnikos
Aug 21st 2008, 02:49 AM
1. I doubt, seriously, that you want anything to do with a comparison game b/w the levels of righteousness and morality of the early church fathers vs. the reformers! (Are you aware of some of Calvin's policies or Luther's late-life attitudes?). But in the end, this is not a debate about the righteousness of one man vs. another, but about the ARGUMENTS they made and how those arguments match up with the Scriptures.

2. Yes, upon Constantine's 'conversion' the Christians started to think of Sunday as the new Sabbath. At best, this was a historical mistake on their part. My guess is that early on most Christians kept the Sabbath for the simple fact that they were cultural Jews. But they didn't think they 'had' to, they did so b/c they liked to. Then, as time went on, more and more gentiles became Christians and had no cultural pull to keep Sabbath. The Jewish believers, then, took one of two positions: A) Try to make the gentiles keep Sabbath (Judaize them) or B) Recognize that it's just a cultural preference at this point. Most of the Jewish believers chose position B. Pretty soon, the majority of Christians were gentiles (including the church fathers) and wrote against the judaizers and position A. Constantine was ignorant of all of this. He found Christians treating Sunday specially and assumed it matched up with the OT Sabbath. Since most Roman citizens were now nominal or new Christians, they didn't know any better to correct him. And since the clergy was now his staff, they may not have wanted to correct him. So Sunday was now viewed as the Sabbath.

3. Nobody is denying that the 10 commandments 'was' the law of God. You, however, have done nothing to prove that the 10 commandments were exclusively moral in nature or that the Sabbath was to be kept prior to Moses. You keep stating that, but you haven't made a good case for it (but that's not your fault, there isn't a case to be made).
1. right on that. My point is that Catholics use these quotes like candy.
2.Mistake or not we have something that mine or your opinion can not wish away. I found one good reason and that is the Jewish Talmud that does not allow for gentiles to keep the Sabbath, so I can see how they would have been ostracized and felt resentful.
3. I thought my last argument was pretty good. I take it as evidence of a moral law before Moses. I am talking about the commandments that Abraham kept. How do you know they were not the same as the Ten Commandments?

Ethnikos
Aug 21st 2008, 04:18 AM
To dispel a couple of myths being floated here – first, no one denies the seven day of the week has existed from Creation until today (it has) – “on the seventh day God ended his work …he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.” The controversy being discussed is when did God make that day know to His creation and to whom was it revealed and commanded. Again, this is plainly revealed to any who wish to read about it – God “made known unto them [the Jews] His holy Sabbath” at Horeb and not before that time (Nehemiah 9:13-14). And to which people did He make the Sabbath known? Again, the answer is clear - “Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” [the Hebrew nation] (Deuteronomy 5:3). God never made the covenant that included the 4th commandment “with their fathers” – it was made only with the Hebrew nation and not until Siani. Sabbath-keeping was not continued on into the New Testament economy – Christians have neve been under “law” to "keep" any day holy.

Second, the Sabbath was never “transferred to Sunday” this is a non-biblical notion. There were many Jewish-Christians who retained their tradition of Sabbath observance and who also assembled on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to celebrate the resurrection of the Messiah – Jesus Christ arose from the grave on the first day of the week - not the seventh day. The seventh day is still the seventh day and the fist day is still the first day – nothing has been "transferred". The apostolic church has assembled on the first day of the week for over 20 centuries and it will continue to do so “until He comes.”

Romans 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
I think that verse, Deuteronomy 5:3 should be seen as pointing out how special they were. The above verse says there was more than one covenant. I do not know how to divide them up, exactly but I think it leaves it open to more than one interpretation. You are entitled to your own views as to how the Sabbath fits in to all that.
I agree with you that there is a bunch of man-made doctrine that went on in the early Christian times. I do not have any problem with assembling on the first day. My main problem is the mixing of terms. There are a lot of people who have never questioned that Sunday is the Sabbath. Oliver North had a radio show at one time and they were discussing the judge that put the Ten Commandments in his court room. I called in and got on the air with him (North) and asked him if he had a problem with enforcing Sundays as the Sabbath. He said he would like Sunday laws that forced everyone to not work on Sunday.

matthew94
Aug 21st 2008, 05:34 AM
I thought my last argument was pretty good. I take it as evidence of a moral law before Moses. I am talking about the commandments that Abraham kept. How do you know they were not the same as the Ten Commandments?

May I ask you 2 key questions?

Are you saying that we should keep Saturday separate b/c the Sabbath Law was, by nature, a moral law that existed from creation onward?

If I could convince you that the Sabbath Law was, by nature, ceremonial, would that change your mind as to whether or not Sabbath observance is commanded of Christians under the New Covenant?

Ethnikos
Aug 21st 2008, 07:59 AM
May I ask you 2 key questions?

Are you saying that we should keep Saturday separate b/c the Sabbath Law was, by nature, a moral law that existed from creation onward?

If I could convince you that the Sabbath Law was, by nature, ceremonial, would that change your mind as to whether or not Sabbath observance is commanded of Christians under the New Covenant?
You phrased this question to get my opinion of what we should do. I am not going to tell anyone what to do, other than read the bible and do what the Holy Spirit tells you. My conscience (or some kind of message inside my head) constantly tells me I should be observing the Sabbath. Not observing it makes those things nag at me until I make a change. That is my personal experience. So, I am like you, but am compelled to do the opposite thing, but maybe for the same reason, if that makes sense. I feel I am in harmony with God when I do observe it and you feel you are in harmony with Jesus by observing what you consider to be a better thing.
If someone has the spirit of rebellion in them and they just hate the very idea that God would make a demand of you, then they are lost and all I can say is please leave me the opportunity to be submissive to that Demand of God, and to recognize that He does have the right to make that demand. I would not tell that person what to do. My main concern is to be able to make my own choice.

So, to answer the questions, the Sabbath was part of a moral law and also part of a ceremonial law added by Moses. One looks forward and one looks back.
Convincing me of the ceremonial aspect means nothing because I already believe it.
We are in Christ and are free from the condemnation of the law but that does not give us a freedom to ignore the law. I believe that there is a spiritual quality and virtue in the Sabbath and I am compelled to not ignore it. These arguments or whatever you bring up do not matter. Ceremonial or moral, it does not matter. I believe in the ceremonial almost the same as you do. We do have a permanent rest from doing those things that were shadows of the future and Jesus is our Sabbath.
I do not think of the Sabbath so much in terms of being a law but that there is a sacred day that has existed as a sacred day since creation and continues on into the future, remaining sacred. If it was a law, now, other than a spiritual law, I would be condemned. I think of the Sabbath as a gage for how much you respect God, by how you treat His day.

matthew94
Aug 21st 2008, 02:14 PM
Thanks for responding, I think that answer will save me a lot of time! What I mean is, why proceed in the discussion if it won't matter if new points are established :) I very much agree with the first section of your post. And while I disagree with the 2nd section (at least the part about the Sabbath being, not just ceremonial, but moral as well), I do respect your opinion and would never ask anyone to go against their conscience.

God bless,
matthew

Cynthia
Aug 21st 2008, 07:57 PM
To dispel a couple of myths being floated here – first, no one denies the seven day of the week has existed from Creation until today (it has) – “on the seventh day God ended his work …he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.” The controversy being discussed is when did God make that day know to His creation and to whom was it revealed and commanded. Again, this is plainly revealed to any who wish to read about it – God “made known unto them [the Jews] His holy Sabbath” at Horeb and not before that time (Nehemiah 9:13-14). And to which people did He make the Sabbath known? Again, the answer is clear - “Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day” [the Hebrew nation] (Deuteronomy 5:3). God never made the covenant that included the 4th commandment “with their fathers” – it was made only with the Hebrew nation and not until Siani. Sabbath-keeping was not continued on into the New Testament economy – Christians have neve been under “law” to "keep" any day holy.

Second, the Sabbath was never “transferred to Sunday” this is a non-biblical notion. There were many Jewish-Christians who retained their tradition of Sabbath observance and who also assembled on the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to celebrate the resurrection of the Messiah – Jesus Christ arose from the grave on the first day of the week - not the seventh day. The seventh day is still the seventh day and the fist day is still the first day – nothing has been "transferred". The apostolic church has assembled on the first day of the week for over 20 centuries and it will continue to do so “until He comes.”

Where Christians told to keep the other 9 commandments? And if so, why would just this one not transfer?

Ethnikos
Aug 21st 2008, 08:19 PM
18Now Jacob loved Rachel, so he said, "I will serve you seven years for your younger daughter Rachel."
20So Jacob served seven years for Rachel and they seemed to him but a few days because of his love for her.
21Then Jacob said to Laban, "Give me my wife, for my time is completed, that I may go in to her."
27"Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also for the service which you shall serve with me for another seven years."
28Jacob did so and completed her week, and he gave him his daughter Rachel as his wife.
Thought I woud put this verse up to show how a week was considered to be seven days, before the Egyptian bondage.

losthorizon
Aug 21st 2008, 11:51 PM
Where Christians told to keep the other 9 commandments? And if so, why would just this one not transfer?
Yes – nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament – the 4th is noticeably missing because it was never a requirement for Christians – ie – the New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. The reason for this is because the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross has become our “Sabbath rest”. Hear the words of Jesus...
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-30 (KJV) The Christian faith is not about "day-keeping"...it is about faith and love through God's grace...by faith...
And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:10 AM
Yes – nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament – the 4th is noticeably missing because it was never a requirement for Christians – ie – the New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. The reason for this is because the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross has become our “Sabbath rest”. Hear the words of Jesus...

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-30 (KJV)
The Christian faith is not about "day-keeping"...it is about faith and love through God's grace...by faith...

And this is his commandment, we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23


uh, Sabbath is mentioned more than any other commandment in the New Testament. Most people miss it because it is in the actions of Y'shua, the disciples, Paul, and the Greeks.

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:33 AM
uh, Sabbath is mentioned more than any other commandment in the New Testament. Most people miss it because it is in the actions of Y'shua, the disciples, Paul, and the Greeks.
I don’t think I ever said the Sabbath is not mentioned in the NT (it is) - what I did say was the biblical truth that the 4th commandment is noticeably missing as a requirement for Christians because the New Testament nowhere commands Christians (Jew or Greek) to observe the Sabbath as a matter of Law. The Christian faith is not about "day-keeping".

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:38 AM
I don’t think I ever said the Sabbath is not mentioned in the NT (it is) - what I did say was the biblical truth that the 4th commandment is noticeably missing as a requirement for Christians because the New Testament nowhere commands Christians (Jew or Greek) to observe the Sabbath as a matter of Law. The Christian faith is not about "day-keeping".


You are right, their example should be pointless to us.

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:30 AM
You are right, their example should be pointless to us.
Just the opposite - the apostolic church is our example and pattern for worshipping and serving God today and that church did not make Sabbath-keeping a matter of Law – why – simply because “in Christ” we find rest unto our souls - He is our Sabbath rest. Christians assemble on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection- the day He arose from the dead. Jesus said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

valleybldr
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:52 AM
Christians assemble on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection- the day He arose from the dead. Jesus said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Hardly the reason. Roman worship forms already focused on Sunday and the Romanized church followed suit. todd

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:41 PM
Just the opposite - the apostolic church is our example and pattern for worshipping and serving God today and that church did not make Sabbath-keeping a matter of Law – why – simply because “in Christ” we find rest unto our souls - He is our Sabbath rest. Christians assemble on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection- the day He arose from the dead. Jesus said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

Jesus said that regarding Passover. That is a different topic altogether.

Meet on the first day of the week, Rest on Sabbath. Sabbath is a gift (Sabbath was made for man).

valleybldr is right "Hardly the reason. Roman worship forms already focused on Sunday and the Romanized church followed suit."

Follow the pattern of the first Church, the Church in the Wilderness.

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 01:01 PM
Hardly the reason. Roman worship forms already focused on Sunday and the Romanized church followed suit. todd

Lol - tell me more about your revisionist history fable – did the Lord arise from the dead on the first day of the week as the Bible plainly reveals or was that too invented by the Sun-worshiping pagan stooges of the “Christian Roman Emperor”, Constantine as the SDA beginners handbook tells you?

valleybldr
Aug 22nd 2008, 01:21 PM
Lol - tell me more about your revisionist history fable – did the Lord arise from the dead on the first day of the week as the Bible plainly reveals or was that too invented by the Sun-worshiping pagan stooges of the “Christian Roman Emperor”, Constantine as the SDA beginners handbook tells you? Why do you link an event in Jesus' life to when Christians worship? Does Scripture make the connection and transfer? todd

talmidim
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:43 PM
The statement that the Lord or His Apostles did not teach Sabbath keeping is blatantly false. And both He and His disciples certainly did not teach Sabbath breaking, as some seem to teach. Instead, the Lord or His Apostles taught how to observe Sabbath properly, in keeping with the two most important Commandments - love the Father, love each other.

Does an ambulance break the law by running a red light? Of course not. That is ridiculous. Because there are LAWFUL exceptions. This is the same thing the Master taught about the Sabbath. It is not breaking the Sabbath. It is properly observing the Sabbath, according to all that is written about it in His Word.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Where, in all of this, does He advocate not observing the Sabbath? Or abandoning the Sabbath? Or changing the Sabbath? Or changing the nature of the Sabbath?
Nowhere!

He gave the Sabbath Commandment on Sinai and nowhere did He alter His Commandment to observe them. He only taught how to properly observe the Sabbath by keeping the teaching of His Word rather than the traditions of man. Now the traditions of man teach that Sabbath observance is worthless. So I ask, worthless to whom? And I answer, not to me.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:Here the Master cautions His disciples to pray that their flight not be on the Sabbath. Why? Because in the future, AFTER His death and resurrection and ascension, the Sabbath no longer existed? That doesn't make any sense.

Luk 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. Our Lord was buried hastily before a Sabbath, so as not to violate a Sabbath Feast. And here, His disciples would not even go to His grave to anoint His body, least they violate the weekly Sabbath.

These are the people that sat at the Master's feet and lived with Him day-in and day-out. And they made it clear that they perceived no change in the observance of Sabbath, except as He taught. And personally, I trust their perspective more than yours.



***************************


Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
There is no place in the book of the Acts of the Apostles that it can be shown that the Apostles broke the Sabbath. None. Not one.

And there are many examples of them observing the Sabbath by gathering, worshiping and teaching in the manner of the Master.


Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. The Sabbaths and indeed all the Holy Observances were given as prophetic signs of things to come.

The Lord observed all the Sabbaths.

The Lord taught His Apostles how to properly observe the Sabbaths.
The Lord taught how to distinguish between observing the Sabbaths based on His law vs the tradition of man.

The Lord cautioned His disciples to pray that events would not cause them to break the Sabbaths.
The Lord NEVER taught that the Sabbath Observances had changed.

And through Paul and His prophets, The Lord taught that all the Sabbaths and Feasts were given as prophetic signs of things to come.


So why would I NOT want to observe the Sabbaths?

Eaglenester
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:09 PM
What is the commandment pertaining Shabbat?

REMEMBER Shabbat - you have to know what something is in order to remember it - this shows that the people already had a knowledge of Shabbat prior to Torah being given.

What does Yahweh do with the commandment to REMEMBER Shabbat - ties it to creation and Him resting on the 7th day - Shabbat goes back to creation.

What does Paul (thus Elohim) say about Shabbat in Colossians 2:
things which are a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Look at the tense of the underlined words - Shabbat being a shadow is present tense - what is to come is future tense.
So Shabbat is not yet fulfilled, which carries it forward still.

Scripture shows Shabbat started in creation, and carries forward to the future still.

Eaglenester
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:24 PM
* The Lord observed all the Sabbaths.
* The Lord taught His Apostles how to properly observe the Sabbaths.
* The Lord taught how to distinguish between observing the Sabbaths based on His law vs the tradition of man.
* The Lord cautioned His disciples to pray that events would not cause them to break the Sabbaths.
* The Lord NEVER taught that the Sabbath Observances had changed.
* And through Paul and His prophets, The Lord taught that all the Sabbaths and Feasts were given as prophetic signs of things to come.

So why would I NOT want to observe the Sabbaths?

:yes:
:thumbsup:

Scripture proclaims that we are to emulate Messiah - Messiah observed Shabbat

Scripture states we are predestined to be conformed to Messiah's image - Messiah observed Shabbat

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord's day is only mentioned once in the "NT" - Revelation, so Scripture does NOT record believers regularly meeting on Sunday.

If one holds to that belief, then they are STILL wrong meeting on our calendar Sunday - Messiah was resurrected on our calendar Saturday evening (dawn of Sunday by Yahweh's calendar)

Firstfruits
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:16 PM
NO servile/labor on the day, and keep it sanctified. That is the bottom line of the commandment.

Ex 20:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:10&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - but the seventh day is a Shabbat for ADONAI your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work -not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property. Ex 20:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+20:8&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - "Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God. Ex 31:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+31:16&translation=cjb&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The people of Isra'el are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant. That is about it. Everything else was given by the Israelite commentary. What you say is not found in the Bible but the Talmid, Mishah, and the likes.

Hi Manichunter,

I half agree with you as you have only mentioned half the commandment, so is there a problem with God if we work on the Sabbath and do not keep it holy, are there no longer any consequences?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual
covenant.


If there are none, then Gods law has changed, and if it has changed who has changed it, God or man?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:45 PM
Why do you link an event in Jesus' life to when Christians worship? Does Scripture make the connection and transfer? todd
The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance instituted by Christ and to be observed “until He comes again” - it is part of our worship. You didn’t answer my question - did the Lord arise from the dead on the first day of the week as the Bible plainly reveals or was that too invented by Sun-worshiping pagans as the SDA handbook teaches?

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:55 PM
He gave the Sabbath Commandment on Sinai and nowhere did He alter His Commandment to observe them. He only taught how to properly observe the Sabbath by keeping the teaching of His Word rather than the traditions of man.


The Sabbath Commandment was given at Sinai to the Jews only. It was never commanded to be “kept” before that time in history – it was never commanded that even one Gentile must "keep" that day – and the New Testament nowhere commands Christians (Jew or Greek) to observe the Sabbath as a matter of Law. The Christian faith is not about going back under bondage found in the shadows of Judaism including "day-keeping" as many Sabbatarians on this board erroneously assert. Christians live and die under the Law of Christ - He is our Sabbath rest today.

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:06 PM
So why would I NOT want to observe the Sabbaths?


I think the begging question is this – if Christians are bound by law to keep the Sabbath or "months, and times, and years" why in the world would Paul condemn those Judaizers who tried to force God’s people to “keep” special days including the Sabbath day? We see that nothing has changed - we still have those Judaizers among us today – the Galatian error is a live today but is was soundly refuted by Paul over 20 centuries ago. Paul tells us the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and it is no longer binding on Christians – why – because the Christ (the reality) has come. Don't be fooled by those who wish to but a yoke of bondage around the neck of the weak.
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:18 PM
I think the begging question is this – if Christians are bound by law to keep the Sabbath or "months, and times, and years" why in the world would Paul condemn those Judaizers who tried to force God’s people to “keep” special days including the Sabbath day? We see that nothing has changed - we still have those Judaizers among us today – the Galatian error is a live today but is was soundly refuted by Paul over 20 centuries ago. Paul tells us the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and it is no longer binding on Christians – why – because the Christ (the reality) has come. Don't be fooled by those who wish to but a yoke of bondage around the neck of the weak.

Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17


1. Are you saying the observing christmas, sunday and easter is not "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11"? Or is it only bad when it is mentioned in the bible?

2. How is wanting to observe Shabbat "judging"? Anyway, that verse is speaking of how you observe said say (in respect of).

losthorizon
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:33 PM
1. Are you saying the observing christmas, sunday and easter is not "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11"? Or is it only bad when it is mentioned in the bible?


I am saying exactly what Holy Writ states most emphatically - the binding of any day as a matter of Law on any Christian is wrong and is soundly condemned by the inspired writers – the Christian faith is not a faith based on “day-keeping”. The latter-day Judaizers stand under that same condemnation their counterparts were condemned for in the first century. If you are one of them you need to re-think what you do - Take Heed Lest Ye Fall...

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:52 PM
again. How does saying "why would I not want to observe Shabbat" considering binding?

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:03 AM
The Sabbath Commandment was given at Sinai to the Jews only. It was never commanded to be “kept” before that time in history – it was never commanded that even one Gentile must "keep" that day – and the New Testament nowhere commands Christians (Jew or Greek) to observe the Sabbath as a matter of Law. The Christian faith is not about going back under bondage found in the shadows of Judaism including "day-keeping" as many Sabbatarians on this board erroneously assert. Christians live and die under the Law of Christ - He is our Sabbath rest today.

Not commanded, just assumed they would be partakers of the covenants of promise. Are Gentiles partakers of the covenants of promise? The Greeks that stayed in the synagogues on sabbath "after the Jews had left" seemed to think so.

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.....

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:06 AM
again. How does saying "why would I not want to observe Shabbat" considering binding?
But that is not what is being floated on this thread – I have already posted that if one chooses to observe the Sabbath they have the freedom in Christ to do so – but one does not have the authority to teach others they must “keep” that day as a matter of law. There is a big difference and some on this thread teach that Judaizing error.

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:48 AM
But that is not what is being floated on this thread – I have already posted that if one chooses to observe the Sabbath they have the freedom in Christ to do so – but one does not have the authority to teach others they must “keep” that day as a matter of law. There is a big difference and some on this thread teach that Judaizing error.


Would you be upset if someone said that you should go to Church on Sunday?

talmidim
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:20 AM
Hi Manichunter,

I half agree with you as you have only mentioned half the commandment, so is there a problem with God if we work on the Sabbath and do not keep it holy, are there no longer any consequences?

Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual
covenant.


If there are none, then Gods law has changed, and if it has changed who has changed it, God or man?

Firstfruits

Messiah taught that there are legal exceptions to the Sabbath Commandment. If you knew the 'law' a little better, you would see that your question is without basis in fact. And since He wrote it in the first place, I'll take His explanation over yours.

talmidim
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:29 AM
I think the begging question is this – if Christians are bound by law to keep the Sabbath or "months, and times, and years" why in the world would Paul condemn those Judaizers who tried to force God’s people to “keep” special days including the Sabbath day? We see that nothing has changed - we still have those Judaizers among us today – the Galatian error is a live today but is was soundly refuted by Paul over 20 centuries ago. Paul tells us the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and it is no longer binding on Christians – why – because the Christ (the reality) has come. Don't be fooled by those who wish to but a yoke of bondage around the neck of the weak.
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17You ignored the proofs in my post that Messiah taught how to keep Sabbath properly, that He warned His disciples to pray that events did not cause them to break Sabbath and even during and after His death, His disciples went to great lengths not to break the Sabbath Commandment.

It has always been a rule of mine that if the Messiah's and Paul's teachings contradict one another, then someone must be misunderstanding what Paul said. Because the Master was clear. And His disciples were clear. And as I said before, I'll take the Master's teachings and the teachings and actions of His disciples over your interpretation of Paul's intentions every time.

manichunter
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:06 AM
I think the begging question is this – if Christians are bound by law to keep the Sabbath or "months, and times, and years" why in the world would Paul condemn those Judaizers who tried to force God’s people to “keep” special days including the Sabbath day? We see that nothing has changed - we still have those Judaizers among us today – the Galatian error is a live today but is was soundly refuted by Paul over 20 centuries ago. Paul tells us the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and it is no longer binding on Christians – why – because the Christ (the reality) has come. Don't be fooled by those who wish to but a yoke of bondage around the neck of the weak.

Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17


Your Gal 4 Scripture is taken out of context. Paul is addressing paganism and its religious observances. Read three Scriptures up and down to see that he was referring to Gentiles who did not know God.

Your Col 2 uses the future tense, hence some of the shadows have yet to be fulfilled. It does not use the past or present tense.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:24 AM
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3][COLOR=Blue]You ignored the proofs in my post that Messiah taught how to keep Sabbath properly, that He warned His disciples to pray that events did not cause them to break Sabbath and even during and after His death, His disciples went to great lengths not to break the Sabbath Commandment.


You have presented absolutely no “proofs” that Christians were ever commanded by Jesus or any of the inspired writers of the NT to “keep” the Sabbath because there are no such commands – the Law of Christ does not include Sabbath keeping. It is not a hard concept.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:27 AM
Your Gal 4 Scripture is taken out of context. Paul is addressing paganism and its religious observances. Read three Scriptures up and down to see that he was referring to Gentiles who did not know God.


Paul was referring to those Judaizers who were teaching the same error that is being taught on this thread by their modern-day counterparts…
To the weak and beggarly elements - After receiving all this, will ye turn again to the ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law - rites too weak to counteract your sinful habits, and too poor to purchase pardon and eternal life for you? If the Galatians were turning again to them, it is evident that they had been once addicted to them. And this they might have been, allowing that they had become converts from heathenism to Judaism, and from Judaism to Christianity. This makes the sense consistent between the 8th and 9th verses. ~ Adam Clarke

To the weak and beggarly elements - To the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law, imposing a servitude really not less severe than the customs of paganism. On the word elements, see the note at Gal_4:3. They are called “weak” because they had no power to save the soul; no power to justify the sinner before God. They are called “beggarly” (Greek πτωχὰ ptōcha, poor), because they could not impart spiritual riches. They really could confer few benefits on man. Or it may be, as Locke supposes, because the Law kept people in the poor estate of pupils from the full enjoyment of the inheritance; Gal_4:1-3. ~ Albert Barnes

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:32 AM
Would you be upset if someone said that you should go to Church on Sunday?
I already assemble with the saints on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection from the dead just as the apostolic church did in the first century.
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

manichunter
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:59 AM
Paul was referring to those Judaizers who were teaching the same error that is being taught on this thread by their modern-day counterparts…

To the weak and beggarly elements - After receiving all this, will ye turn again to the ineffectual rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law - rites too weak to counteract your sinful habits, and too poor to purchase pardon and eternal life for you? If the Galatians were turning again to them, it is evident that they had been once addicted to them. And this they might have been, allowing that they had become converts from heathenism to Judaism, and from Judaism to Christianity. This makes the sense consistent between the 8th and 9th verses. ~ Adam Clarke

To the weak and beggarly elements - To the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law, imposing a servitude really not less severe than the customs of paganism. On the word elements, see the note at Gal_4:3. They are called “weak” because they had no power to save the soul; no power to justify the sinner before God. They are called “beggarly” (Greek πτωχὰ ptōcha, poor), because they could not impart spiritual riches. They really could confer few benefits on man. Or it may be, as Locke supposes, because the Law kept people in the poor estate of pupils from the full enjoyment of the inheritance; Gal_4:1-3. ~ Albert Barnes



That is true concerning the Judiazers bothering the newly converted gentiles, but you fail to grasp that he was referring to gentile practices in the verse you use. The Jews knew Yahweh and where known of Yahweh. The gentiles did not know Yahweh and they were not known by Yahweh. The Jews did not observe myths, fables, element, and spirits as a part of Judiaism. The Jews do not even and never had a Holy Month of Observance. The Scripture or Jewish customs say nothing about a Holy Month. However, her are plently of pagan observances that honor hold months like Ramahdom.

Eaglenester
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:16 AM
I already assemble with the saints on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection from the dead just as the apostolic church did in the first century.

NOT Scriptural accurate - thus a FALSE teaching.
It's a tradition of men thing

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:49 AM
I already assemble with the saints on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection from the dead just as the apostolic church did in the first century.

The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church


That is ok, I did not think you would answer that question.

talmidim
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:56 AM
I already assemble with the saints on the first day of the week to celebrate His resurrection from the dead just as the apostolic church did in the first century.
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian ChurchNothing short of Imperial Roman rule and State Church of Rome imposing death penalty sanctions against all that practiced true Sabbath worship can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice? True. The majority of dissenters were murdered in the name of the Roman State Church. And that started with the wholesale persecution and slaughter of the Jews. And by the second and third centuries, Antisemitism was rampant in the 'church'. So everything remotely Hebrew was removed from Christianity.

Now if I have learned anything, it is this. A government does not pass death penalty statutes if everyone is already observing that law. You pass the law because there are many infractions and you need to modify behavior. And the best way to modify behavior is through the liberal application of the death penalty. Dissenters are permanently removed and any that survive tend to be quiet too.

Before the Roman empire co-opted our Messiah for its own political purposes, they already had priests that wore black, 'church' leaders that wore red garments and fish shaped hats. And they followed four major celebrations throughout the year. Interestingly, they exactly correspond to Christmas, Easter, Valentine's day and Halloween. They even worshiped the 'sun god' on 'sun day'. And if you removed Jesus, Joseph and Mary from that early Roman church and replaced them with Tammuz, Mithras and Astarte, you would have the popular and original 'sun' worshiping pagan church of Rome.

The notion that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday is found no place in scripture. But it is found in the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia where the RCC admits that it changed it by decree, making it a tradition of the 'church'. They also admit that there is no scriptural basis for the change. And they boast that the Protestant's observance of Sunday worship is proof of the RCC's authority in these matters.

The Messiah was not resurrected on 'Sun' day. And He was not resurrected on the 'first' day of the week. He was resurrected on the observance of 'Firstfruits' according to the instructions of the 'law' found in Leviticus 23. You should read the law a little more before you argue it. It might change your perspective.

Come out of her my friend. Even further.

valleybldr
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:50 AM
You have presented absolutely no “proofs” that Christians were ever commanded by Jesus or any of the inspired writers of the NT to “keep” the Sabbath because there are no such commands – the Law of Christ does not include Sabbath keeping. It is not a hard concept. It sounds as if you subscribe to the concept that unless a directive in the "old testament" is restated (re-commanded) in the NT it is no longer valid. todd

valleybldr
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:59 AM
Come out of her my friend. Even further.

Once, while touring Rome, a guide bragged about how they (the RCC) had taken paganism and Christianized it. I thought it was a well kept secret but Rome is not shy about it's wholesale syncretism. I've learned since that Catholics can be honest on the subject but Protestants tend to ignore the historical facts and attempt (unsuccessfully IMO) to make a case from Scripture. todd

Longsufferer
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:34 AM
(from Matthew.12:10-13)
“…Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days?”
(Matthew.12:10)
“…it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.”
(Matthew.12:12)

valleybldr
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:44 AM
(from Matthew.12:10-13)
“…Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days?”
(Matthew.12:10)
“…it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.”
(Matthew.12:12) OK, I'll guess. You posted this because you are questioning which laws are being referenced here? todd

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:55 PM
It sounds as if you subscribe to the concept that unless a directive in the "old testament" is restated (re-commanded) in the NT it is no longer valid. todd
Christians have freedom in Christ regarding the keeping of “special days” and that freedom includes the freedom to not “keep” any day. Christians find their spiritual rest “in Christ” not in the yoke of bondage found in the error of required day keeping that has been re-established by the traditions of latter-day Judaizers who cannot get past the shadows of Judaism. God condemned such practices in the first century and He condemns them yet today. Christians are warned to mark such "blind leaders of the blind" and avoid them and their non-biblical practices. And remember – the latter-day Sabbath-keepers who require their underlings to “keep the Sabbath” only keep that day in a modified form themselves and that is the same as not keeping it at all. Of such men we are told - "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Sabbath-keeping belongs to the "shadow-Sabbath" but now the Reality has come and that reality "is found in Christ" - Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest not some physical day.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord ...." (Rom. 14:5,6).

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2:16,17)

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:04 PM
Nothing short of Imperial Roman rule and State Church of Rome imposing death penalty sanctions against all that practiced true Sabbath worship can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century.
Your revisionist history sounds like regurgitation from Ellen G. White, 101 for Dummies that can be found at your favorite SDA bookstore. I think she wrote that one shortly after her third “trip” to heaven. ;)

Eaglenester
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:10 PM
Christians have freedom in Christ regarding the keeping of “special days” and that freedom includes the freedom to not “keep” any day. Christians find their spiritual rest “in Christ” not in the yoke of bondage found in the error of required day keeping that has been re-established by the traditions of latter-day Judaizers who cannot get past the shadows of Judaism. God condemned such practices in the first century and He condemns them yet today. Christians are warned to mark such "blind leaders of the blind" and avoid them and their non-biblical practices. And remember – the latter-day Sabbath-keepers who require their underlings to “keep the Sabbath” only keep that day in a modified form themselves and that is the same as not keeping it at all. Of such men we are told - "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Sabbath-keeping belongs to the "shadow-Sabbath" but now the Reality has come and that reality "is found in Christ" - Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest not some physical day.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord ...." (Rom. 14:5,6).

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2:16,17)

You keep MISSING what is being said in Col 2 - It shows Shabbat is NOT YET fulfilled and has a role.

Messiah NEVER NEVER NEVER condemned keeping Torah as you claimed, He ONLY condemned the adding of man-made requirements.

Torah is GOOD & HOLY - you don't like it, I feel sorry for you.
Torah is NOT a burden, man-made requirements added to it are.

Messiah delighted in Shabbat, and you don't want to be like Him - so be it

You miss out by not keeping a date that Yahweh set to meet with you.

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:38 PM
Your revisionist history sounds like regurgitation from Ellen G. White, 101 for Dummies that can be found at your favorite SDA bookstore. I think she wrote that one shortly after her third “trip” to heaven. ;)


A bold claim. WHy not talk about the subject instead of blaming anyone who thinks the early church was fallible as "SDA regurgitators".

I am one that believes that Anti Nicene fathers were not the instruments of God, I could care less what they said and did, But it is a fact that the Roman govt outlawed anything viewed as Jewish.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:43 PM
You keep MISSING what is being said in Col 2 - It shows Shabbat is NOT YET fulfilled and has a role.


It is you my friend who is missing the Reality – and that reality is the fact that Christ has come (20 centuries ago) and He is now our Sabbath rest. The law of Christ is not about "day-keeping". The biblical facts remain what they are – the facts – (1) the word “Sabbath” does not appear in the book of Genesis, (2) there is no command for anyone prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai commanded to “keep” the seventh day of the week holy, (3) we know exactly when and to whom the 4th commandment was given – the Hebrew nation only - at Sinai, (4) not one Christian and not one Gentile was ever commanded to “keep” that day as a matter of law. Christians today have the freedom in Christ to honor that day if they choose but anyone who makes “keeping” that day a matter of law stands condemned as the Judaizers of old were condemned for compelling the weak in faith to go back under the shadows of Judaism. :)

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:49 PM
A bold claim. WHy not talk about the subject instead of blaming anyone who thinks the early church was fallible as "SDA regurgitators".

I am one that believes that Anti Nicene fathers were not the instruments of God, I could care less what they said and did, But it is a fact that the Roman govt outlawed anything viewed as Jewish.
Not really. They did pass a law, under Constantine, to not make Christians have to go to government offices on Sunday but allowed it for Jews. The Church, later, made Canons to keep Jewish aspects out of the Christian Religion.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:51 PM
A bold claim. WHy not talk about the subject instead of blaming anyone who thinks the early church was fallible as "SDA regurgitators".


I have to call them as I see them and all of this silly revisionist history presented by Phillip and other latter-day Sabbatarians goes back to the error taught by Mrs. White – what I see here is simply her nonsense refined over the years by her misguided students – nothing new. Just more of the blind leading the blind.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:58 PM
Not really. They did pass a law, under Constantine, to not make Christians have to go to government offices on Sunday but allowed it for Jews. The Church, later, made Canons to keep Jewish aspects out of the Christian Religion.
But you are overlooking one little fact of history- Christians were celebrating on the first day of the week - the Lord’s Day - Sunday -the memory of the resurrection of Christ from the apostolic age onward – 500 years before any man-made edict. It had inspired apostolic sanction but this you do not want to address. Why?

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:07 PM
losthorizon

are you trying to establish Sunday worship as a matter of law?

Eaglenester
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:27 PM
It is you my friend who is missing the Reality – and that reality is the fact that Christ has come (20 centuries ago) and He is now our Sabbath rest. The law of Christ is not about "day-keeping". The biblical facts remain what they are – the facts – (1) the word “Sabbath” does not appear in the book of Genesis, (2) there is no command for anyone prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai commanded to “keep” the seventh day of the week holy, (3) we know exactly when and to whom the 4th commandment was given – the Hebrew nation only - at Sinai, (4) not one Christian and not one Gentile was ever commanded to “keep” that day as a matter of law. Christians today have the freedom in Christ to honor that day if they choose but anyone who makes “keeping” that day a matter of law stands condemned as the Judaizers of old were condemned for compelling the weak in faith to go back under the shadows of Judaism. :)

Try READING Genesis - Yahweh shä·bath' (verb - to keep or observe the sabbath) on the 7th day - He SANTIFIED then, made it Holy, set it appart.

The FIRST thing Yahweh did after creation was to set apart the 7th day and observed Shabbat HIMSELF.

MUST be IMPORTANT

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:27 PM
But you are overlooking one little fact of history- Christians were celebrating on the first day of the week - the Lord’s Day - Sunday -the memory of the resurrection of Christ from the apostolic age onward – 500 years before any man-made edict. It had inspired apostolic sanction but this you do not want to address. Why?
If you could produce evidence to support that view, I would address it.
I am looking at the old texts, right now and trying to sort out what was actually written, compared to what people claim about it.
As for E.G.White, she was not a theologian or the originator of the Sabbath keeping ideas that popped up around that time.
You have to realize that the religious background of these people in New England was solidly in favor of keeping the Sabbath. The only difference from that and the Adventists, and other seventh day'rs, was the day it should be kept on.
Here's a couple old state laws from back then:
New Jersey
" Sec. 1st. Be it enacted by," &c. "That no traveling, worldly employment or business, ordinary or servile labor or work, either upon land or water, (works of necessity and charity excepted) * * shall be done or performed by any person or persons within this State, on the Christian Sabbath, or first day of the week, commonly called Sunday.'' Passed 1798.
Kentucky,
Sec. 36th. If any person, on the Sabbath day, shall himself be found laboring at his own or any other trade or calling, a shall employ his apprentices Inc or slaves, in labor or other business, whether the same be for profit or amusement (and no work or business shall be done or performed on the Sabbath day, unless it be the ordinary household offices of daily necessity, or other works of necessity or charity,) he shall for-feit,'' &e. Passed, 1822.

Firstfruits
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:06 PM
Messiah taught that there are legal exceptions to the Sabbath Commandment. If you knew the 'law' a little better, you would see that your question is without basis in fact. And since He wrote it in the first place, I'll take His explanation over yours.

With what God has commanded; Ex 31:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

What in Gods commandment did Jesus say has changed, knowing that nothing can be added to nor diminished from it?

Firstfruits

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:59 PM
Try READING Genesis - Yahweh shä·bath' (verb - to keep or observe the sabbath) on the 7th day - He SANTIFIED then, made it Holy, set it appart.


The biblical truth remains the truth - Adam, Job, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and not even one Hebrew kept in Egyptian bondage were ever commanded to “keep the Sabbath” - this fact alone knocks the legs out from under your notion above. The truth is the Hebrew nation and that people alone were given the Sabbath as a memorial to their deliverance from the bondage of the Egyptians. Your “argument” is a non-argument. Do you have anything else?

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:09 PM
If you could produce evidence to support that view, I would address it.
I am looking at the old texts, right now and trying to sort out what was actually written, compared to what people claim about it.
As for E.G.White, she was not a theologian or the originator of the Sabbath keeping ideas that popped up around that time.
You have to realize that the religious background of these people in New England was solidly in favor of keeping the Sabbath. The only difference from that and the Adventists, and other seventh day'rs, was the day it should be kept on.

The historical fact that New Englanders in that period of time referred to Sunday as the “Christian Sabbath” hardly supports your position. I would be more than happy to discuss the many errors and bazaar behavior of Mrs. White and her latter-day Sabbath-keeping error including the founding of the SDA organization that continues her many errors today but it is not allowed on this thread. You can start a thread in the appropriate forum and I will drop by and give you my 2 cents. The fact remains - silly revisionist history presented by Phillip and others have a direct line back to the Adventist movement and do not represent good history. Some folks need to rewrite the facts to support their error - sad but true. :)

Eaglenester
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:13 PM
The biblical truth is that Adam, Job, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and not even one Hebrew kept in Egyptian bondage were ever commanded to “keep the Sabbath” - this fact alone knocks the legs out from under your notion above. The truth is the Hebrew nation and that people alone were given the Sabbath as a memorial to their deliverance from the bondage of the Egyptians. Your “argument” is a non-argument. Do you have anything else?

Have to regroup since what you said before was WRONG - it's YOUR legs that keep getting knocked out.

No one was "commanded" to not murder before Torah either.
If fact there were no commandments prior to Torah - so what does that mean exactly????

Shabbat was instituted and declared Holy on the 1st day after creation FACT

Paul shows that Shabbat is yet to be fulfilled FACT

Messiah faithfully observed Shabbat FACT

Scripture calls us to imitate FACT

Shabbat is NOT a burden, it is a delight - you choose to miss out on it, so be it.

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:52 PM
which of the following would apply as revisionist history?

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.....

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Messiah Y'shua ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Messiah.

(regarding Gentiles) Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.


Christian Interpretation 3:27 The Sabbath Commandment was given at Sinai to the Jews only. It was never commanded to be “kept” before that time in history – it was never commanded that even one Gentile must "keep" that day – and the New Testament nowhere commands Christians (Jew or Greek) to observe the Sabbath as a matter of Law. The Christian faith is not about going back under bondage found in the shadows of Judaism including "day-keeping" as many Sabbatarians on this board erroneously assert. Christians live and die under the Law of Christ - He is our Sabbath rest today.

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:04 PM
The historical fact that New Englanders in that period of time referred to Sunday as the “Christian Sabbath” hardly supports your position. I would be more than happy to discuss the many errors and bazaar behavior of Mrs. White and her latter-day Sabbath-keeping error including the founding of the SDA organization that continues her many errors today but it is not allowed on this thread. You can start a thread in the appropriate forum and I will drop by and give you my 2 cents. The fact remains - silly revisionist history presented by Phillip and others have a direct line back to the Adventist movement and do not represent good history. Some folks need to rewrite the facts to support their error - sad but true. :)
The point I was trying to make was that when people back in 1844 came up with the idea of keeping the Sabbath, it was not a revolutionary idea. What was different was wanting to keep the same day as the Jews. The thought that we had an obligation to God to keep a Sabbath was something people already believed in.
I am not trying to prove a point or use this as some evidence for some higher concept. My point is what I just said, that a lot of Christians have always understood there was some sort of obligation to keep one day out of the week as holy. They have always used the word "Sabbath" whether they were referring to the seventh or first day of the week.

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:01 PM
which of the following would apply as revisionist history?
The Christian faith is not about going back under bondage found in the shadows of Judaism including "day-keeping" as many Sabbatarians on this board erroneously assert. Christians live and die under the Law of Christ - He is our Sabbath rest today.
How about this verse from Rev.14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Sounds like to me that it is saying that Christians should be keeping the commandments.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:08 PM
The point I was trying to make was that when people back in 1844 came up with the idea of keeping the Sabbath, it was not a revolutionary idea.


I am not really concerned with what people in 1844 believed. I am concerned with what Holy Writ teaches and it does not teach Sunday as the Christian Sabbath and it does not teach Christians are bound by the shadows of Judaism after the Reality (Christ) has come. Our Sabbath rest is about Christ Jesus – it is not about the day-keeping requirements of the later-day Sabbatarians who enforce a yoke of bondage on those who are weak in the faith. We have freedom in Christ to reject such bondage and it should be rejected for what it is - a non-biblical requirement that is man-made and man-enforced.

losthorizon
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:12 PM
How about this verse from Rev.14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Sounds like to me that it is saying that Christians should be keeping the commandments.
Sabbatarian Fallacy #212 – Every time thou seeth 'commandments of God' it musteth be a reference to thy 10 Commandments". But guess what – it is just that - a fallacy. God has given many commandments that have nothing to do with the Law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross.

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:27 PM
What in Gods commandment did Jesus say has changed, knowing that nothing can be added to nor diminished from it?
Firstfruits
Hebrews 9:4 talks about the ark with the tables of the Ten Commandments in it.
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hebrews also talks about the real Temple in Heaven that the earthly Tempe is a copy of. In Revelations 11:19, it talks about that Temple and what is in it.
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
The ark holds the law and the one that is preserved would be expected to be the same one in the ark that we know.
The Ten Commandments seem to be able to stand on their own, without all the civil and Levitical laws that were added on in the Sinai desert.
So nothing is changed to the commandments that existed in Abraham's day.

Ethnikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:39 PM
I am not really concerned with what people in 1844 believed. I am concerned with what Holy Writ teaches and it does not teach Sunday as the Christian Sabbath and it does not teach Christians are bound by the shadows of Judaism after the Reality (Christ) has come. Our Sabbath rest is about Christ Jesus – it is not about the day-keeping requirements of the later-day Sabbatarians who enforce a yoke of bondage on those who are weak in the faith. We have freedom in Christ to reject such bondage and it should be rejected for what it is - a non-biblical requirement that is man-made and man-enforced.
I guess I am getting a little defensive. I feel like people hate Seventh day Adventists as perpetrators of some great evil that has befallen on mankind. That is not the case because they were no more strict on Sabbath keeping than almost every Protestant religion in America, back when the church got its start. It just so happens the other churches have been sliding back into a weird form of Catholicism that now, we stand out in stark contrast to the ones who have fallen away.
We did not invent Sabbath keeping and it is ingrained to the very core of Christianity. If you want to live in your own little delusional world where the sabbath just goes away, be my guest.

Emanate
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:47 PM
Sabbatarian Fallacy #212 – Every time thou seeth 'commandments of God' it musteth be a reference to thy 10 Commandments". But guess what – it is just that - a fallacy. God has given many commandments that have nothing to do with the Law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross.


True enough. The ten commandments are merely the first 10, not its totality. SDA is wrong there.

However let us look at a few commandments that were nailed to the cross.

Leviticus 19:10-17 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

I am glad we are no longer under the bondage of loving our neighbor

Exodus 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

At least we have license now.

Deu 24:19,20 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands. When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

It is definitely a burden to help the needy

Lev 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

Another yoke of bondage - honesty

Num 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

keeping your word - only a thing for Judaizers

Deu 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.

Judaizers also still try to yoke us with this one.

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Legalism that was too burdensome.

and the list goes on and on...........

Ethnikos
Aug 24th 2008, 12:11 AM
Sabbatarian Fallacy #212 – Every time thou seeth 'commandments of God' it musteth be a reference to thy 10 Commandments". But guess what – it is just that - a fallacy. God has given many commandments that have nothing to do with the Law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross.

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
This is the verse you mention. Paul is talking about the condemnation that is hanging over our heads, as sinners. We are free of the verdict of guilt that the Law imposes on us. We die and are risen with Christ into a new life where we can live in accordance with God's law, spiritually. The Law was not nailed to the cross. It was the debt that was paid for us by Jesus that was done away with.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 02:28 AM
I guess I am getting a little defensive. I feel like people hate Seventh day Adventists as perpetrators of some great evil that has befallen on mankind. That is not the case because they were no more strict on Sabbath keeping than almost every Protestant religion in America, back when the church got its start. It just so happens the other churches have been sliding back into a weird form of Catholicism that now, we stand out in stark contrast to the ones who have fallen away.
We did not invent Sabbath keeping and it is ingrained to the very core of Christianity. If you want to live in your own little delusional world where the sabbath just goes away, be my guest.
The fallacy you operate under is this – two wrongs somehow make a right. The truth remains the truth – both the SDA and the RCC (and her daughters) teach much error. These facts do not negate the error of the Sabbath-keeping yoke the SDA places on her members. You need to re-think your position.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 02:32 AM
True enough. The ten commandments are merely the first 10, not its totality. SDA is wrong there.

However let us look at a few commandments that were nailed to the cross.


As I have mentioned earlier – nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament – the 4th is conspicuously missing.

Emanate
Aug 24th 2008, 03:06 AM
As I have mentioned earlier – nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament – the 4th is conspicuously missing.


I am sure God was just confused when he called it forever and had his prophets prophesy it would be observed by all people. Thank you for showing us His error.

Eaglenester
Aug 24th 2008, 03:10 AM
As I have mentioned earlier – nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament – the 4th is conspicuously missing.

But it is regularly exampled, you are running out of excuses.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 03:31 AM
I am sure God was just confused when he called it forever and had his prophets prophesy it would be observed by all people. Thank you for showing us His error.
Sabbatarian Fallacy #189 – "forever always means forever"

In Genesis 17 God made an “everlasting covenant” with Abram and his descendants after him – the sign of circumcision.
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14
Question for you – was the covenant of circumcision a “forever” covenant or did it only last for the time prescribed by God? Hint – circumcision under the Law of Christ “shall profit you nothing” – the same is true about Sabbath-keeping - neither were forever until the end of time. The Sabbath is not binding on God's people today just as circumcision is not bound on His people. Neither have been commanded for Christians today. This is not hard to understand.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Galatians 5:1-3

manichunter
Aug 24th 2008, 03:35 AM
Sabbatarian Fallacy #189 – "forever always means forever"

In Genesis 17 God made an “everlasting covenant” with Abram and his descendants after him – the sign of circumcision.

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14
Question for you – was the covenant of circumcision a “forever” covenant or did it only last for the time prescribed by God? Hint – circumcision under the Law of Christ “shall profit you nothing” – the same is true about Sabbath-keeping - neither were forever until the end of time. The Sabbath is not binding on God's people today just as circumcision is not bound on His people. Neither have been commanded for Christians today. This is not hard to understand.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Galatians 5:1-3


Circumcision is forever and binding, just not in the same manner as you say. The Sabbath is still binding and forever, just not the same manner.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 03:39 AM
But it is regularly exampled, you are running out of excuses.
You are mistaken - there are no commands for any Christian in the NT to "keep" the Sabbath as a matter of law - not one.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 03:40 AM
Circumcision is forever and binding, just not in the same manner as you say. The Sabbath is still binding and forever, just not the same manner.
Tell me the manner.

manichunter
Aug 24th 2008, 03:44 AM
Tell me the manner.

You should know.

If you do not, then why are debating the issue. I think you know, you are just playing with me, right kind sir.

losthorizon
Aug 24th 2008, 03:57 AM
You should know.

If you do not, then why are debating the issue. I think you know, you are just playing with me, right kind sir.
The phrase - "same manner" can and does mean different things to different people and I do not know your mind. Maybe you can explain what that term means to you related to the Sabbath and circumcision.