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lendtay
Aug 15th 2008, 10:47 PM
Has anyone read this book? Don Piper was a Baptist minister who claimed he was clinically dead after a car accident, went to heaven and saw the pearly gates, and then came back to life. It took him about a year or longer to recuperate from his injuries. He then wrote a book about his experience in heaven. I'm reading this book right now, and not sure what to believe.

One thing I am wondering, is why God would give this special revelation to Don Piper, and not other people.

9Marksfan
Aug 15th 2008, 11:37 PM
Has anyone read this book? Don Piper was a Baptist minister who claimed he was clinically dead after a car accident, went to heaven and saw the pearly gates, and then came back to life. It took him about a year or longer to recuperate from his injuries. He then wrote a book about his experience in heaven. I'm reading this book right now, and not sure what to believe.

One thing I am wondering, is why God would give this special revelation to Don Piper, and not other people.

Good point - the apostle Paul had a genuine experience of Heaven - and he said that it was not permitted that he should speak about it. I wonder why Don Fortner feels he's somehow exempt from this?

From what I know of what he says, he doesn't see Jesus - yet Scripture teaches us that Heaven is ALL about the Lamb on the throne!!!! :pp

apothanein kerdos
Aug 15th 2008, 11:40 PM
Good point - the apostle Paul had a genuine experience of Heaven - and he said that it was not permitted that he should speak about it. I wonder why Don Fortner feels he's somehow exempt from this?

From what I know of what he says, he doesn't see Jesus - yet Scripture teaches us that Heaven is ALL about the Lamb on the throne!!!! :pp

I tend to agree with this view right here. Why is it that Heaven is concealed from us in Scriptures, but in the extra-Biblical stories it's not?

Mograce2U
Aug 16th 2008, 02:19 AM
Has anyone read this book? Don Piper was a Baptist minister who claimed he was clinically dead after a car accident, went to heaven and saw the pearly gates, and then came back to life. It took him about a year or longer to recuperate from his injuries. He then wrote a book about his experience in heaven. I'm reading this book right now, and not sure what to believe.

One thing I am wondering, is why God would give this special revelation to Don Piper, and not other people.Tim Challies has a review on this book at Amazon.com if you do a search on "90 minutes in heaven".

It might be good to see what Stephen saw when he was about to die for a more biblical account in Acts 7. Stephen saw Jesus but Mr. Piper did not. That alone ought to give you concern about his testimony.

th1bill
Aug 16th 2008, 02:54 AM
Has anyone read this book? Don Piper was a Baptist minister who claimed he was clinically dead after a car accident, went to heaven and saw the pearly gates, and then came back to life. It took him about a year or longer to recuperate from his injuries. He then wrote a book about his experience in heaven. I'm reading this book right now, and not sure what to believe.

One thing I am wondering, is why God would give this special revelation to Don Piper, and not other people.
... I have read the book and own a hardback copy after reading the paper back. Actually, Don is a Baptist Minister in this local area and he has never claimed to be dead for 90 minutes. Instead it is recorded that he was dead, awaiting the Coroner so they could extract his body from the crushed automobile and the remove the wreckage. He was determined to be dead by the EMT team and the Department of Public Safety Trooper as well as by an experienced combat medic with Vietnam experience.
... He was so severly damaged that he was two years in recovery and mad as a wet settin' hen with God about sending him back. As for why God did that, look at the witness Don now has and he makes very, very little from the book, profit was not the motive.(added) The most common dig I hear from the world today is, "If God is so powerful, why doesn't He do any miracles today?" Here is one that has been thoroughly documented and even the elect question it.

th1bill
Aug 16th 2008, 03:02 AM
Tim Challies has a review on this book at Amazon.com if you do a search on "90 minutes in heaven".

It might be good to see what Stephen saw when he was about to die for a more biblical account in Acts 7. Stephen saw Jesus but Mr. Piper did not. That alone ought to give you concern about his testimony.
I'm hoping that you've not read the book because Don never entered into the Pearly Gates, he was sent home before that happened.

Mograce2U
Aug 16th 2008, 04:34 AM
... I have read the book and own a hardback copy after reading the paper back. Actually, Don is a Baptist Minister in this local area and he has never claimed to be dead for 90 minutes. Instead it is recorded that he was dead, awaiting the Coroner so they could extract his body from the crushed automobile and the remove the wreckage. He was determined to be dead by the EMT team and the Department of Public Safety Trooper as well as by an experienced combat medic with Vietnam experience.
... He was so severly damaged that he was two years in recovery and mad as a wet settin' hen with God about sending him back. As for why God did that, look at the witness Don now has and he makes very, very little from the book, profit was not the motive.(added) The most common dig I hear from the world today is, "If God is so powerful, why doesn't He do any miracles today?" Here is one that has been thoroughly documented and even the elect question it.
I am always skeptical first when big bucks is the return. 2.7 million copies and a claim to be selling 20,000 copies a day is a big influence. I don't doubt the miracle, just the capitalizing on it. Though I was glad to hear it is going toward "ministry", I notice they never tell you how much they keep...

Mograce2U
Aug 16th 2008, 01:45 PM
An excerpt from the FAQ's section at his site:



In the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, Christ tells his disciples he is going to prepare a place for them. Thomas asks the same question most of us would. Where is it, and how do we get there? Jesus responded without hesitation. Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

What does this mean for those who do not follow Christ? As Christians, we believe the Bible teaches the only way to go to heaven is through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. We believe he did what he said he would do, he died and rose from the grave, and he is now preparing a place for us in heaven. Even though many great religions profess an after-life, that there is a place called “paradise” or “heaven,” Christ alone represents the one who conquered death to go to heaven. We profess Christ out of love for all the people of the world, and we hope they too will come to know Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

Christianity would not be possible if it were not for Judaism. Jews are the chosen people of God and therefore they have a special relationship with God. We are often asked if there will be a separate judgment for Jewish people. We acknowledge it is possible. The truth is we still believe you must profess Christ as your Lord and Savior in order to go to heaven. Jesus gives us a better life now and eternal life with him. With great love and respect for those of other faiths and religions, we point people to Jesus. We believe there is a heaven, and we believe Jesus is the way. I know the part I bolded seems pretty innocuous since we hear it so often. But his answer here fails to give Jesus the preeminence as the ONLY way to be saved.

Also looking around to get a better feel for his testimony it would seem his vision is in conflict with John's Revelation. In Rev 21 we are told that the gates to the city are NEVER closed. And in Rev 22 it lists who are found on the outside of the city that cannot enter in. In Don's vision he and all his friends who went before are on the outside of the gates to greet him, yet he is not to stay. And, Jesus is absent.

Since this event occurred in 1989, Don has had a while to contemplate this vision. And not knowing what he believed at that time vs what he believes now makes it difficult to see whether this experience might have been given him as a warning rather than as a hope - or whether its source was a godly one that was given to him at all.

Others have had such experiences too, and quite often it is a means to promote a false doctrine be it overtly or subtlety. I did read Bettie Eadie's "Embraced by the Light", and it was quite clear that its promotion was of Mormon heresies.

I would think such experiences ought not to take on the role of prophecy thru book sales, but remain personal to the one who received it, since there is no way to test what he says except by scripture. And so far I do not think his vision nor his understanding of it lines up with the few passages we do have about heaven.

Lazarus spent 4 days in the grave and yet not one word is recorded by him of what he experienced. Perhaps book sales were not as lucrative back then.

Sold Out
Aug 16th 2008, 02:46 PM
Has anyone read this book? Don Piper was a Baptist minister who claimed he was clinically dead after a car accident, went to heaven and saw the pearly gates, and then came back to life. It took him about a year or longer to recuperate from his injuries. He then wrote a book about his experience in heaven. I'm reading this book right now, and not sure what to believe.

One thing I am wondering, is why God would give this special revelation to Don Piper, and not other people.

Our pastor talked about this book one Sunday...and I want to read it so bad! He also mentioned a book last Thurs at bible study called 'The Shack'....has anyone read it yet?

lendtay
Aug 16th 2008, 04:36 PM
I've read through most of the book already. The author expresses some bitterness towards those who wronged him (a nurse in the ICU and the man who accidentally hit his car and caused his injuries). I would expect someone who is a Christian, who claims to have seen heaven itself, would show some forgiveness. He was upset about the fact that his tax dollars went to pay for the legal defense for the indigent man who hit his car. Well, anyone in America should know that if you are poor, you have a right to a state-appointed attorney who will defend you. That's just part of our rights as Americans. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

But like I said, I haven't quite reached the end of the book yet.

th1bill
Aug 16th 2008, 05:16 PM
I've read through most of the book already. The author expresses some bitterness towards those who wronged him (a nurse in the ICU and the man who accidentally hit his car and caused his injuries). I would expect someone who is a Christian, who claims to have seen heaven itself, would show some forgiveness. He was upset about the fact that his tax dollars went to pay for the legal defense for the indigent man who hit his car. Well, anyone in America should know that if you are poor, you have a right to a state-appointed attorney who will defend you. That's just part of our rights as Americans. This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

But like I said, I haven't quite reached the end of the book yet.
Since I know the drift of the 90 Minutes book I'll point out the not so obvious that these comments appear to be about the other book because Don Piper was driven over by a convict in a Texas State 18 wheeler. I do not mean to be offensive but to the unlearned these comments can indite either book.

Sold Out
Aug 16th 2008, 05:37 PM
Something our pastor gleaned from the book was the fact that Don first saw people in heaven that had had a postive spiritual influence on him.

Makes you want to be part of someone's greeting party when they get to heaven after you.

Mograce2U
Aug 16th 2008, 06:22 PM
Something our pastor gleaned from the book was the fact that Don first saw people in heaven that had had a postive spiritual influence on him.

Makes you want to be part of someone's greeting party when they get to heaven after you.Only if the Lord Himself is at the head of the group...

9Marksfan
Aug 16th 2008, 06:39 PM
Our pastor talked about this book one Sunday...and I want to read it so bad! He also mentioned a book last Thurs at bible study called 'The Shack'....has anyone read it yet?

No, but I just heard about it the other day - one of the most blasphemous, New Age pieces of heresy around - check this site:-

http://www.alittleleaven.com/emergent_church/index.html

daughter
Aug 16th 2008, 06:54 PM
I read it on the plane on the way to Africa. It bothered me, Jesus doesn't sound at all like He does in the Bible. Also, it seemed to be universalist in theology. And it's not the fact that God the Father or the Holy Spirit are portrayed as women that bothers me, but the fact that He's portrayed at all.

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 07:36 PM
John the Revelator was the last man on Earth to see anything of Heaven or Hell, and anybody else who says they have seen them since John is a liar at best.

Scripture does not lie, but false prophets sure do.

daughter
Aug 16th 2008, 07:39 PM
Where does it say in Scripture that nobody else would ever get a glimpse of heaven? I would like to see chapter and verse please. Otherwise, it's speculation on your part, and you're standing in judgement.

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 07:53 PM
Where does it say in Scripture that nobody else would ever get a glimpse of heaven?

Revelation 22:18-19 warns us that anybody who adds to the prophesies about what heaven and hell are is in big trouble.

Again. John the Revelator was the last person on Earth to get a glimpse of Heaven and Hell, and scripture warns us not to believe anybody else other then the authors of scripture when it comes to the revelations of God.

lendtay
Aug 16th 2008, 08:35 PM
Since I know the drift of the 90 Minutes book I'll point out the not so obvious that these comments appear to be about the other book because Don Piper was driven over by a convict in a Texas State 18 wheeler. I do not mean to be offensive but to the unlearned these comments can indite either book.


I realize he was hit by a convict (inmate) but it was not done deliberately. That doesn't excuse reckless driving, of course. I just wondered why he made no statement of forgiveness toward the man in his book. Perhaps he forgave him later at some other time. I really don't know.

lendtay
Aug 16th 2008, 08:43 PM
Tim Challies has a review on this book at Amazon.com if you do a search on "90 minutes in heaven".

It might be good to see what Stephen saw when he was about to die for a more biblical account in Acts 7. Stephen saw Jesus but Mr. Piper did not. That alone ought to give you concern about his testimony.


Thanks mograce. I read the Tim Challies review on amazon.com. Very insightful.

th1bill
Aug 17th 2008, 04:44 AM
I realize he was hit by a convict (inmate) but it was not done deliberately. That doesn't excuse reckless driving, of course. I just wondered why he made no statement of forgiveness toward the man in his book. Perhaps he forgave him later at some other time. I really don't know.
I do not recall that he felt ill about the inmate at all.

Gentile
Aug 17th 2008, 01:09 PM
John the Revelator was the last man on Earth to see anything of Heaven or Hell, and anybody else who says they have seen them since John is a liar at best.

Scripture does not lie, but false prophets sure do.

This a ridiculous statement I am sure people have seen heaven and hell. Now when people got and write a book about it then I think it is false.

Gentile
Aug 17th 2008, 01:12 PM
I stay far away from books like "90 minutes in heaven" it is damaging to the Christian faith and it makes a mockery out of GOD.

lendtay
Aug 17th 2008, 07:18 PM
I do not recall that he felt ill about the inmate at all.

I think he may have felt somewhat ill, but that is just a feeling I get. Here is his quote from the book:

"Ironically, the attorney general of Texas defended the man who drove the truck that hit me, becasue the defendant was an indigent inmate. Therefore my tax dollars went to defend the state and the man who caused the accident."

He may not have felt ill toward the man who hit his car, but he doesn't express forgiveness either - at least not in this book. Perhaps he did later on. I don't know.

th1bill
Aug 17th 2008, 10:08 PM
I think he may have felt somewhat ill, but that is just a feeling I get. Here is his quote from the book:

"Ironically, the attorney general of Texas defended the man who drove the truck that hit me, becasue the defendant was an indigent inmate. Therefore my tax dollars went to defend the state and the man who caused the accident."

He may not have felt ill toward the man who hit his car, but he doesn't express forgiveness either - at least not in this book. Perhaps he did later on. I don't know.
... But you see, your reading into the text what is not expressed and without a personal interview your claim is unwarrented, that's all. If Dick Tracy does a very unchristian trick on someone after having led tye congregation f9r twenty years, does that release us from our commitment to tye LORD to be His representatives? You see, I don't believe it does and while some of you here saw the result of a bad mix of the meds I take every day, none but the admin here called me to task on the matter in spite of the fact that everyone of us are called by God to carry part of the other's load.
... That of course is the Christian concept of Accountability, as taught in the Bible. (Gal 6:10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.) I'm really just trying to help bear your burden, just as some of the Admin. Team did mine.

danield
Aug 18th 2008, 12:10 AM
I read 90 minutes in heaven, and I think it is a great testimony to the power of our Lord. There are not many people in this age that can have a factual account that they have died for 90 minutes and returned to life to give their first hand account of a glimpse of what we can look forward to. This is something that he did not manufacturer, but an actual experience that was documented. His account comes from a Christian preacher who went through a difficult recovery. I value his experience, and appreciate his courage to come forward with this powerful witness tool for our Lord and Savior. I am very, very proud of him! God bless him!

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 01:21 AM
Revelation 22:18-19 warns us that anybody who adds to the prophesies about what heaven and hell are is in big trouble.No. Revelation 22:18-19 warns us against adding to the Revelation and only the Revelation.

"I warn anyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Reading the actual text above, it is obvious that John's focus is upon the book he just wrote. I'm not taking "sides" on the 90 Minutes in Heaven book, but this needed to be pointed out: John only warned against people adding to or taking away from that one book of prophecy, not that people couldn't have their own visions of heaven like you claim he said.

9Marksfan
Aug 19th 2008, 08:34 AM
OK - let's get back to Scripture - this is what Paul said about his visit to the thrid heaven:-

...and heard inexpressible words which it is not lawful for a man to utter 2 Cor 12:4b NKJV

Now - was Paul right when he said that? If so, what has changed?

There's another equally crucial issue here - does the Bible tells us all we need to know about Heaven or not?

CanadianSlash
Aug 19th 2008, 04:58 PM
I don't know how much truth I give to these accounts...

Number 1, as people have pointed out, scripture talks about this.

Number 2, studies have been done on these near-death experiences, and in children, the near-death experiences aren't as clearly defined as they are in adults. For some reason, children typically don't have as many "religious" elements in their visions, most probably because they haven't become well-versed in it. Plus, people of other faiths usually have near-death experiences that mirror their beliefs.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but it is curious, to say the least.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:08 PM
OK - let's get back to Scripture - this is what Paul said about his visit to the thrid heaven:-

...and heard inexpressible words which it is not lawful for a man to utter 2 Cor 12:4b NKJV

Now - was Paul right when he said that? If so, what has changed?



This is correct. The Word of God has not changed.

But people in the church today love to hear 21st century tales of people surviving Heaven and Hell, even when scripture is clear that it's all lies from the mouth of deceivers.

People will always trust mankind's words over the Word of God in the last days, and scripture is very clear about this. They are searching for signs, instead of the Word of God. It's sad.:cry:

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 06:38 PM
I think people are forgetting one big point to his story. He actually died for and hour and a half. He had no heart activity so no blood was pumping to the brain. His body was cold. Our Brains can not survive for 7-10 minutes with out oxygen and he was pronounced dead for 90 minutes. I have done CPR on someone who had a heart attack for 25 minutes straight and the doctor still could not revive him. His death was very real and can not be disputed. Now as Christians we believe that when we die our souls leave our bodies to be with our Lord and Savior. His account did not take him all the way to Christ’s throne, and it is probably why he was allowed to return to earth. So If we argue that he did not actually go to heaven or hell then we dispute the very existence of heaven and hell itself.

I would like to add that I noticed how he held animosities against his fellow man when I was reading the book, but I later understood that not everyone’s feeling of forgiveness comes as quickly as others. During his recovery he went through many of his emotions and realized how out of line he was. And I realized then that God’s patience with us is glorious. We are human trying to be like Christ. We can never achieve that goal because of our imperfections. And our stubborn heart sometimes gets in the way for sure. It is one of the reasons I pray to the Lord to bring his love in my heart so I can forgive those who have trespassed against me, and not only forgive them but love them and do good for them. In short, I do believe that he went to heaven or it may have been the gates of heaven. I also do not think it contradicts with scripture in any way because he has not added to anything in the bible.

God Bless

PS imagine if God did call you to heaven and allowed you to return to earth to give people hope and you kept your experience secret!

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 09:29 PM
PS imagine if God did call you to heaven and allowed you to return to earth to give people hope and you kept your experience secret!

Nobody has kept it a secret. It's all documented in the scriptures.

The stuff written in books today is a fraud.

When somebody's spirit is separated from their body, the spirit either goes to Hell, or it goes to Paradise if you are in Christ, not Heaven. There are no human spirits in Heaven, they are in Paradise(Abraham's bosom) awaiting Christ's return, to be transfigured into a body like Christ has.

All of the 20th and 21st century books written about people dying and going to Heaven never talk about Paradise, they talk about Heaven, and human spirits don't go yo Heaven when they die, they go to Paradise.

I can't believe how caught up Christians get in sensationalistic garbage these days? It makes no sense?:confused

markedward
Aug 19th 2008, 09:59 PM
OK - let's get back to Scripture - this is what Paul said about his visit to the thrid heaven:-

...and heard inexpressible words which it is not lawful for a man to utter 2 Cor 12:4b NKJV

Now - was Paul right when he said that? If so, what has changed?Let's read that statement contextually.

What was it that Paul was saying was "not lawful for a man to utter"? Was it "visions of heaven" as a whole? Not at all. It was singularly and individually the "inexpressible words" that that particular man had heard.

Paul never said people couldn't describe heaven, or even that people couldn't recite words they heard in heaven (or visions of heaven). If that were the case, we better throw out Ezekiel and the Revelation because they both describe heaven and recite words they heard in heaven. Contextually, Paul was right when he said that... but we need to keep in mind the context of what he was saying was "unlawful" to be "uttered," being certain things that that individual man had heard, and not that all visions of heaven or words spoken of in heaven are wrong to speak of. Something comparable to this could be found in the Revelation, when John is told not to write what the seven thunders spoke: that certain part of John's vision of heaven and earth and the future was to be kept private.



On the current topic, I am fairly skeptical of books that claim the authors saw heaven, and I am extremely skeptical of books that claim the authors saw hell. I don't see it as a possibility that is unBiblically sound, but when actually comparing such books to Scripture, I usually find them to be contradictory.

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 10:14 PM
Nobody has kept it a secret. It's all documented in the scriptures.

The stuff written in books today is a fraud.

When somebody's spirit is separated from their body, the spirit either goes to Hell, or it goes to Paradise if you are in Christ, not Heaven. There are no human spirits in Heaven, they are in Paradise(Abraham's bosom) awaiting Christ's return, to be transfigured into a body like Christ has.

All of the 20th and 21st century books written about people dying and going to Heaven never talk about Paradise, they talk about Heaven, and human spirits don't go yo Heaven when they die, they go to Paradise.

I can't believe how caught up Christians get in sensationalistic garbage these days? It makes no sense?:confused


I am going to skip over the wording paradise and heaven because it truly is not important to argue over semantics. I think you are still missing a huge point to the book you are calling garbage. This man died for an hour and a half. He was not on the operating table brain dead for 3 minutes but for an hour and a half he was dead. Professional people who have seen death countless times testify to this. Look at his car crash, and read the reports for yourself. Look at the 18 wheeler that hit him. He is a walking miracle to have just survived the accident. His account follows what scripture tells us what will happen upon our death. His witnessing has helped save many for the name of Christ, and has worked with many who faced death to sooth their fears of the hereafter. I think the man is anything but garbage.

I think people have seen so much deceit with in the Christian community that they attack any claim from honest people as fraud. I know I am witnessing to someone who distrusts Christians greatly because of the deceit from mega pastors. It is hard to overcome distrust, but there is good out there today. We just have to look a bit harder to find it.

God Bless!

PS I made the statement about keeping secret his experience to show you how it is not wise to keep secret a great gift from God!

wondercoolguy
Aug 19th 2008, 10:30 PM
I spoke to my buddy about it and he put it into prospective for me. If this guy actually saw Heaven...let me restart if ANY OF US actually saw Heaven our Faith, Fire, and Walk would be 100% at all times. Moving Mountains would be done on a daily basis. We would be all over the news all the time, going to each city preaching on the streets. Larry King, Good Morning America, Meet the Press, Etc. Would continually want to interview us because no one would be able to shut us up.

Paul's faith/fire came from the fact that he experienced Jesus first hand with his own eyes. He saw Heaven with his own eyes. When you see the maker and the reward how can you give up.

CanadianSlash
Aug 19th 2008, 10:36 PM
Nobody has kept it a secret. It's all documented in the scriptures.

The stuff written in books today is a fraud.

When somebody's spirit is separated from their body, the spirit either goes to Hell, or it goes to Paradise if you are in Christ, not Heaven. There are no human spirits in Heaven, they are in Paradise(Abraham's bosom) awaiting Christ's return, to be transfigured into a body like Christ has.

All of the 20th and 21st century books written about people dying and going to Heaven never talk about Paradise, they talk about Heaven, and human spirits don't go yo Heaven when they die, they go to Paradise.

I can't believe how caught up Christians get in sensationalistic garbage these days? It makes no sense?:confused

Whut? O.o

Where did you hear that? I thought that Abraham's bosom was for Christians that died before Christ's Cruxificion...

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 10:45 PM
I spoke to my buddy about it and he put it into prospective for me. If this guy actually saw Heaven...let me restart if ANY OF US actually saw Heaven our Faith, Fire, and Walk would be 100% at all times. Moving Mountains would be done on a daily basis. We would be all over the news all the time, going to each city preaching on the streets. Larry King, Good Morning America, Meet the Press, Etc. Would continually want to interview us because no one would be able to shut us up.

Paul's faith/fire came from the fact that he experienced Jesus first hand with his own eyes. He saw Heaven with his own eyes. When you see the maker and the reward how can you give up.

He was on Larry king live or maybe it was Hannity and Colmes and he had very kind eyes!

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 12:27 AM
Whut? O.o

Where did you hear that? I thought that Abraham's bosom was for Christians that died before Christ's Cruxificion...

Christ told the thief on the cross, when he dies, he would be in Paradise, not Heaven. The new Heaven, new Eearth, and new Jerusalem are not yet created for Christians to live in. It's a future event.

CanadianSlash
Aug 20th 2008, 01:05 AM
Christ told the thief on the cross, when he dies, he would be in Paradise, not Heaven. The new Heaven, new Eearth, and new Jerusalem are not yet created for Christians to live in. It's a future event.

I've never heard anything like that before. Jesus discontinued the whole paradise thing after his death and ressurection.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-8

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Does the Lord dwell in "Abraham's bossom?

I'm not entirely sure, but I've heard it said that Jesus went down to Abraham's Bossom to release the saints that were being held there. Thus, the thief could very well have been in "paradise" with Jesus.

But I'm pretty sure that Heaven has replaced Paradise.

EDIT: I remember that revelation says that the dead will come forth from their graves and will be judged. If that's true...then wouldn't we be getting judged a second time? Maybe heaven doesn't exist for us yet...

lendtay
Aug 20th 2008, 01:11 AM
I know I am witnessing to someone who distrusts Christians greatly because of the deceit from mega pastors. It is hard to overcome distrust, but there is good out there today.

I think mega pastors and televanglists also undermined my husband's faith. That is what I am struggling with right now. I live in an area where there are many large mega churches and some of the preachers have not made a good impression. They also swindle people out of large amounts of money.

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 02:39 AM
Hi Canadianslash, #39 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1756048&postcount=39)
You were doing so well until you let doubt creep in! Jesus specifically said that He was going away to prepare a place for us that we might be with Him where He is always (John 14). To me, with those other passages you quoted, it seems we have the promise at death that we will be passed right then and there to eternal life.

(John 5:24 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her [Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus spoke these words to Martha just before He raised Lazarus from the dead. It was the OT saints who needed to be raised from the dead as they rested in Sheol. But those from the 1st century on have the hope that they will never see nor taste death.

(Luke 9:27 KJV) But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

(John 8:51 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

We will never spend a moment unclothed without a tent for our new man's living soul to dwell in.

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 03:42 AM
Maybe heaven doesn't exist for us yet...


If Paradise has been replaced with Heaven right now, and not in the future when christ returns, I haven't found the scripture where it says that Paradise has been replaced by Heaven right now. If somebody has this scripture, please share it with us. Thank you.

markedward
Aug 20th 2008, 03:52 AM
If Paradise has been replaced with Heaven right now, and not in the future when christ returns, I haven't found the scripture where it says that Paradise has been replaced by Heaven right now. If somebody has this scripture, please share it with us. Thank you.Considering this "replacement" was within the realm of prophecy, Scripture won't have anything saying it was already replaced... because the replacement would have taken place after Scripture was written.

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 03:58 AM
If Paradise has been replaced with Heaven right now, and not in the future when christ returns, I haven't found the scripture where it says that Paradise has been replaced by Heaven right now. If somebody has this scripture, please share it with us. Thank you.And yet with the scriptures we have given you, you remain unconvinced? The OT saints were waiting for the promise to come to us with the arrival of Messiah. Because without us they would not be made perfect.

(Heb 11:40 KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This clearly says that what has been provided to us is what makes us perfect. And this is tied to the first advent of Christ - not the 2nd. Who were the firstfruits of salvation? Was is not the remnant of Israel saved in the 1st century? Christ was the first to be raised from the dead and then the firstfruits would follow.

(Rom 8:23 KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

That redemption had not yet come when Paul wrote this, but he clearly showed that this was his hope in that generation which saw the visible coming of the Lord to the earth. This was Christ's purpose in coming to bring the promise to the saints. And the resurrection of the dead was tied to the judgment coming upon Israel. But those who were part of the firstfruits did not have to wait for that event. All they needed was to be faithful unto death. Which Paul clearly says was his hope that when he was absent from the body he would be present with the Lord, and would spend no time "unclothed".

And Stephen also gives us this witness that in the moments before his death he saw the heavens open and the Lord waiting to receive him and so he commits his spirit into His hands. (Acts 6) As did Jesus upon the cross to His Father at His death. Jesus we know is alive and glorified in heaven. Do we not believe that Stephen is too? Or Paul? What pray tell must they still be waiting for?

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 06:04 AM
And yet with the scriptures we have given you, you remain unconvinced? The OT saints were waiting for the promise to come to us with the arrival of Messiah. Because without us they would not be made perfect.

(Heb 11:40 KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This clearly says that what has been provided to us is what makes us perfect. And this is tied to the first advent of Christ - not the 2nd. Who were the firstfruits of salvation? Was is not the remnant of Israel saved in the 1st century? Christ was the first to be raised from the dead and then the firstfruits would follow.

(Rom 8:23 KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

That redemption had not yet come when Paul wrote this, but he clearly showed that this was his hope in that generation which saw the visible coming of the Lord to the earth. This was Christ's purpose in coming to bring the promise to the saints. And the resurrection of the dead was tied to the judgment coming upon Israel. But those who were part of the firstfruits did not have to wait for that event. All they needed was to be faithful unto death. Which Paul clearly says was his hope that when he was absent from the body he would be present with the Lord, and would spend no time "unclothed".

And Stephen also gives us this witness that in the moments before his death he saw the heavens open and the Lord waiting to receive him and so he commits his spirit into His hands. (Acts 6) As did Jesus upon the cross to His Father at His death. Jesus we know is alive and glorified in heaven. Do we not believe that Stephen is too? Or Paul? What pray tell must they still be waiting for?

Mankind was never created to live in Heaven with God, mankind was created to live on the Earth forever and ever, and have dominion over all of the rest of God's creation. When mankind sinned, he lost dominion over the Earth, and mankind also had to die. The first son of God Adam failed in his sin. The only begotten son of God, Christ did not fail in sin like Adam did, and Christ took back dominion over the Earth upon his resurrection. Christ is not the king of Heaven, he's the King of the Earth and it's heavens(the sky). This is why his eternal Kingdom will be set up on the Earth, and not in Heaven.

Mankind is not meant to be in Heaven, we are meant to be on Earth. This is why we Christians will spend all of our eternity in a transfigured body just like Christ's, on the new Earth, in new Jerusalem.

For now, the dead in Christ are in Paradise awaiting Christ's return, and awaiting the resurrection into transfigured bodies like Christ has. The Lord is omnipresent, so he is in Paradise with the dead saints right now. Absent from the body, present with the Lord in Paradise.

9Marksfan
Aug 20th 2008, 12:19 PM
Christ is not the king of Heaven

Really? In Rev 4:1 John sees a door opened in heaven - and there is a Lamb in the midst of the throne of Heaven - the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:16) - and in case you think that's only a future name for Him, he's called it in the PRESENT by Paul in 1 Tim 6:15. Jesus Himself said that ALL authority IN HEAVEN and on earth had been given to Him - so how can you say that He is NOT the king of heaven?

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 05:22 PM
Mankind was never created to live in Heaven with God, mankind was created to live on the Earth forever and ever, and have dominion over all of the rest of God's creation. When mankind sinned, he lost dominion over the Earth, and mankind also had to die. The first son of God Adam failed in his sin. The only begotten son of God, Christ did not fail in sin like Adam did, and Christ took back dominion over the Earth upon his resurrection. Christ is not the king of Heaven, he's the King of the Earth and it's heavens(the sky). This is why his eternal Kingdom will be set up on the Earth, and not in Heaven.

Adam was created to dwell in the earth and Jesus the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. We bear the earthly image of Adam now and the heavenly image of Christ when we are with Him where He is (1 Cor 15:44). If Christ can dwell in heaven as a resurrected being then so can we when we have been transformed and given spiritual bodies like His upon death. We are not taking our flesh and blood earthly bodies into heaven, but will leave them behind. We will pass from death to life so that we are never unclothed without a tent to dwell in.

Christ is King of heaven and earth, far above all principalities and powers, where He rules from the throne in heaven. Jesus is not going to forsake the throne of His heavenly Father in order to take the throne of His earthly father David. Rather it is the earth that must undergo a change to embrace the spiritual realm and its inhabitants and the throne of His glory when they arrive.

Mankind is not meant to be in Heaven, we are meant to be on Earth. This is why we Christians will spend all of our eternity in a transfigured body just like Christ's, on the new Earth, in new Jerusalem.

Exactly, a new earth suited for glorified beings only. A new heaven is one that has been populated with new inhabitants who are able to dwell in it. Jesus went there to prepare a place for us and is gathering His own even now into the New Jerusalem. When we return here it will be when this earth is made suitable - after all the wicked inhabitants of the earth have been removed.

For now, the dead in Christ are in Paradise awaiting Christ's return, and awaiting the resurrection into transfigured bodies like Christ has. The Lord is omnipresent, so he is in Paradise with the dead saints right now. Absent from the body, present with the Lord in Paradise.No, that is the OT understanding. That is what they were waiting for Messiah to arrive to do for us (Heb 11). We do not wait in Paradise, we wait in the New Jerusalem. It is not Paradise that is coming down to the earth, since Sheol is in the earth and the grave held its inhabitants there. Jesus set the captives free and they are now with Him as Revelation shows us.

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 05:23 PM
Really? In Rev 4:1 John sees a door opened in heaven - and there is a Lamb in the midst of the throne of Heaven - the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:16) - and in case you think that's only a future name for Him, he's called it in the PRESENT by Paul in 1 Tim 6:15. Jesus Himself said that ALL authority IN HEAVEN and on earth had been given to Him - so how can you say that He is NOT the king of heaven?

In Revelation 4:1 the Greek word used for Heaven is "ouranos" which means the universe, not Heaven.

Remember in both the Hebrew and Greek, the sky and the visible Universe are both called Heaven or the Heavens sometimes in the Bible.

Study the Hebrew and Greek to get a better understanding of the different uses of the word Heaven in the scriptures.

1 Tim 6:15 doesn't use the word Heaven at all, so I'm not sure what you are talking about here? Did you quote the wrong scripture?:confused

9Marksfan
Aug 20th 2008, 11:06 PM
In Revelation 4:1 the Greek word used for Heaven is "ouranos" which means the universe, not Heaven.

Remember in both the Hebrew and Greek, the sky and the visible Universe are both called Heaven or the Heavens sometimes in the Bible.

Study the Hebrew and Greek to get a better understanding of the different uses of the word Heaven in the scriptures.

OK, so if a door in the universe is opened, what is it that John is seeing through that door? Where is the throne if not in Heaven?


1 Tim 6:15 doesn't use the word Heaven at all, so I'm not sure what you are talking about here? Did you quote the wrong scripture?:confused

What I was saying is that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords NOW - not just in the future. Why do you say he is NOT King of Heaven?

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 01:41 AM
John 3:13- "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the son of man which is in heaven.

Again, no man has ascended up to heaven but Christ. The dead in Christ are in Paradise, awaiting the resurrection.

Mograce2U
Aug 21st 2008, 03:28 AM
John 3:13- "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the son of man which is in heaven.

Again, no man has ascended up to heaven but Christ. The dead in Christ are in Paradise, awaiting the resurrection.Jesus is talking here about how one is to have eternal life and the prerequisite is that he must be born again. And He ties that to when He is lifted up on the cross - which had not yet occurred. The cross, like the serpent on the pole Moses used to heal the people, was to typify when the devil, sin and death would be taken of. All events which occurred in the spiritual realm which we believe by faith. Jesus only mentions here that He had descended from heaven, elsewhere we find His ascension. So He being the first to be raised from the dead and ascend to heaven, makes way for us thru the torn veil to enter in now too. If you have been born from above by the Spirit then you have eternal life and when you die you will pass from death to life.

He who lives and believes in me will never die. Believest thou this?

And it is at that point that we receive our tent that is not made with hands - just like the body Jesus came to earth in which He is now glorified. When we see Him we will be like Him.

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 03:41 AM
If you have been born from above by the Spirit then you have eternal life and when you die you will pass from death to life.

He who lives and believes in me will never die. Believest thou this?

And it is at that point that we receive our tent that is not made with hands - just like the body Jesus came to earth in which He is now glorified. When we see Him we will be like Him.

Eternal life begins when we come to Christ and are still alive, not when we die.

And we don't get our resurrection bodies like Christ has until Christ returns for his bride. The dead in Christ rise first and are transfigured, and then those in Christ that are alive rise to be transfigured.

wondercoolguy
Aug 21st 2008, 05:34 PM
He was on Larry king live or maybe it was Hannity and Colmes and he had very kind eyes!


You don't even know which one he was on? More importantly you missed the point. The point is he would have an unquincable fire that no man or thing on earth could put out.

Gentile
Aug 21st 2008, 08:15 PM
I spoke to my buddy about it and he put it into prospective for me. If this guy actually saw Heaven...let me restart if ANY OF US actually saw Heaven our Faith, Fire, and Walk would be 100% at all times. Moving Mountains would be done on a daily basis. We would be all over the news all the time, going to each city preaching on the streets. Larry King, Good Morning America, Meet the Press, Etc. Would continually want to interview us because no one would be able to shut us up.

Paul's faith/fire came from the fact that he experienced Jesus first hand with his own eyes. He saw Heaven with his own eyes. When you see the maker and the reward how can you give up.

Amen to that brother!

lendtay
Aug 21st 2008, 09:45 PM
You don't even know which one he was on? More importantly you missed the point. The point is he would have an unquincable fire that no man or thing on earth could put out.


I think if someone has literally seen heaven, even come close to it, then yes, they would have an unquenchable fire, they would walk with God 100% of the time. That is why I was confused about why the author did not express forgiveness in his book towards the man who accidentally hit his car. But I really don't know; possibly a person could see heaven with his own eyes and still have some bitterness in life....I don't know.

danield
Aug 26th 2008, 12:17 AM
You don't even know which one he was on? More importantly you missed the point. The point is he would have an unquincable fire that no man or thing on earth could put out.

Please excuse my lack of memory. I am certian he was on both Hanity and Colmes and Larry king live. I think he did forgive the person that hit him. However I believe everyone is bringing great attention to a part of the book when he was reeling from pain from a slow recovery from his accident. He was very short with everyone when he was feeling the effects from the pain. I know when I was under great pain for an extended period of time, there were times I was not the most polite person in the world. I can remember one time under my radiation treatments when the pain was so great that I had my eyes closed so tightly that even when Doctors asked me questions I never responded to them. I later told them I was sorry, but I can only imagine how he must have felt when the pain never subsided for him. It had to be unbearable, and I can empathize with him. I think the point is we can not hold anyone to the level of Christ who forgave us all while undergoing great pain on the cross, but we should try to be that forgiving! I think Don Piper did the best he could under the circumstance he found himself in. And as he recovered he realized the mistakes he made during his treatment.

danield
Aug 26th 2008, 12:20 AM
I think if someone has literally seen heaven, even come close to it, then yes, they would have an unquenchable fire, they would walk with God 100% of the time. That is why I was confused about why the author did not express forgiveness in his book towards the man who accidentally hit his car. But I really don't know; possibly a person could see heaven with his own eyes and still have some bitterness in life....I don't know.

I think the Devil was in Heaven, and he is on fire for not following God's commands!