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Ashley274
Aug 16th 2008, 06:21 AM
Hi sometimes I get butter and things from the Amish....I see they are very modest and do not use electric or cars...What is their faith? Are they christians? I am rather impressed with how they really LIVE their faith

Thanks ahead

Rocking horse
Aug 16th 2008, 10:59 AM
I don't think we have any Amish people in Australia, but like you, I've always admired their modesty. But one time I saw a doco on tv that said that in their early teens they can go quite "wild" if they want to. And they marry very young. Their "wildness" quite disturbed me, and really destroyed the opinion I have had of them.

Mind you....I don't think there's anything more disgusting or disturbing than the way some people live in the "outside" world. I know nothing of their beliefs.

Rocky

Bethany67
Aug 16th 2008, 11:22 AM
The Amish originated in Switzerland in the 17th century as part of a general group called the Anabaptists. They have something called the 'rumspringa' where the teens are allowed, even encouraged, to go out into the world before deciding whether to leave the community for good or committing to it and getting baptised (most choose to return). It's also seen as a time of courtship for finding a spouse. They used to practice something called bundling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(tradition)

I admire the Amish in many ways - their doctrine is pretty orthodox and some practices even challenging in a positive way to us other Christians - but they do seem unnecessarily legalistic to me, and they don't seem to have any concern for evangelism and reaching the lost. Their practice of shunning is particularly harsh. Everyone non-Amish is called 'English.'

Their sister group the Mennonites seem less strict in application, but with a genuine desire to be good stewards, be involved with disaster relief and peaceful reconciliation, and to help the poor. There are no Amish over here in the UK to my knowledge, but the only UK Mennonite church is a few miles from here and I've been meaning to visit. The Mennonites range from 'plain people' who would seem just like the Amish to us, all the way to similar to say typical conservative Baptist. A similar group is the Bruderhof which originated in Germany in the 1920s.

Rocking horse
Aug 16th 2008, 11:38 AM
Thanks for your explanation. I think more modesty in the world would be a good thing.

Rocky

CoffeeCat
Aug 16th 2008, 02:47 PM
We have a decent sized Amish community here in Ontario, and a decent sized Mennonite one as well. Those who belong to the communities are certainly more modest, generally... the Amish are the more legalistic or traditional of the two, and do tend to keep very much to themselves... whereas the Mennonites are usually more "modern"; they might drive a car, work right in the city, and are usually happy to open their community to others who are not originally from it. There's a Mennonite church not far from here, and the folks there are friendly and welcoming. I've noticed two tendencies in the Mennonite community, though, that are interesting..... many advocate Christian socialism (think the first century community) and many advocate pacifism. In both world wars (I and II), men were exempt from armed military service if they said they were conscientious objecters and could prove they were Amish or Mennonite.

Sold Out
Aug 16th 2008, 04:35 PM
Hi sometimes I get butter and things from the Amish....I see they are very modest and do not use electric or cars...What is their faith? Are they christians? I am rather impressed with how they really LIVE their faith

Thanks ahead

Well...it's sort of hard to say. They do believe the basic fundamental doctrines concerning Christianity, but I watched a program recently where an Amish man stated quite adamantly that a person is not saved unless they are baptized.

You should rent this DVD called 'The Devil's Playground'. It's about how the Amish allow their teenagers to go live in the world for an undetermined period of time (called Rumspringa), so that they can make up their mind to either go back and become a permanent member of the Amish community, or to choose to live in the secular world. They believe that you aren't saved unless you reach that age and make that choice to live as they do.

DadBurnett
Aug 17th 2008, 02:25 AM
Hi sometimes I get butter and things from the Amish....I see they are very modest and do not use electric or cars...What is their faith? Are they christians? I am rather impressed with how they really LIVE their faith

Thanks ahead
My impression, based on several visits to Amish communities in America is that they are strict fundamentalist Christians. They differ in the way they choose to relate to the world, but God and Christ are at the center of their lives.

Rocking horse
Aug 17th 2008, 03:02 AM
"The Devils Playground" now that name rings a bell.....I think that's the doco I saw on tv about them. I found it very interesting.

Rocky.

Toymom
Aug 17th 2008, 03:14 AM
The Amish originated in Switzerland in the 17th century as part of a general group called the Anabaptists. They have something called the 'rumspringa' where the teens are allowed, even encouraged, to go out into the world before deciding whether to leave the community for good or committing to it and getting baptised (most choose to return). It's also seen as a time of courtship for finding a spouse.
Interesting. I was told about the Hutterites, a similar, but even more strict group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites by someone who visited them once. She said they do not encourage their teenagers to leave and that if teenage boys leave, they can come back and fit into the community again, but if teenage girls leave, they generally don't want them back because being in the outside world shows the girls that they don't have to be as submissive and subservient as they must be in their community and if they leave and come back they may be too independant and may also affect other girls to become too independant as well.

And if you read the article on wiki - it mentions the community ownership - they have very few personal posessions and everything else is shared - if they want it, they take it, and so apparantly, they tend to be shoplifters and store owners must watch them carefully.

Ashley274
Aug 17th 2008, 06:06 AM
Wow thank you everyone. I then take it they are Christians they just practice some things differently..I wonder if we should be doing some of that....you know...not polluting with cars and electric and farming our own foods...not borrowing and things like that. Won't they be better set when the last days come? I dunno but they do impress me..maybe not the teen girl gig but hey look at some of the christian kids (mainstream christian kids) today ..drugs...sex etc...I am rather taken by this group

lendtay
Sep 14th 2008, 05:49 PM
Hi sometimes I get butter and things from the Amish....I see they are very modest and do not use electric or cars...What is their faith? Are they christians? I am rather impressed with how they really LIVE their faith

Thanks ahead

Yes, Amish are most definitely Christians.

stillforgiven
Sep 14th 2008, 05:55 PM
I didn't search the internet for sources on this, so it very well could have been proven wrong by now - I can remember seeing a report on the Amish about how they are physically abusive to their kids to get them to obey the rules. Does anyone know if this is true?


One of my best friends in college was raised Mennonite, and I was the only person outside of their community that her mom actually liked. Can't really say why, but maybe it's because I'm viewed as "quiet".

cheech
Sep 14th 2008, 06:36 PM
In the last year or two many have moved into our area where we live. Yes, they are very strict in their religion and beliefs but their children can sometimes be of this world without parental knowledge...just like all other children. I pass several areas where they sell their goods as out in the country they will put their horse and buggy on a corner road and sell their goods. Good stuff! They are pleasant but reserved. They have great talent in building things and many people around here hire them to build the structures of buildings, sheds and such.

Many of them try to live by forgiveness. I've read some stories where something has happened to one of their people by an "outsider" and how they forgave the person who did the harm.

Interesting people to say the least.

SavedByGrace
Sep 14th 2008, 09:45 PM
The Amish have always fascinated me as well, because of their modest and simple lifestyle. My favourite book series' by Beverly Lewis are about the Amish. (The Shunning, The Reckoning, The Postcard, The Preacher's Daughter) I haven't done any of my own research, but based on the books, I would say that while they are an outwardly Christian people, very few of them are actually saved. I don't believe they even teach salvation.

DadBurnett
Sep 15th 2008, 05:45 AM
I didn't search the internet for sources on this, so it very well could have been proven wrong by now - I can remember seeing a report on the Amish about how they are physically abusive to their kids to get them to obey the rules. Does anyone know if this is true?


One of my best friends in college was raised Mennonite, and I was the only person outside of their community that her mom actually liked. Can't really say why, but maybe it's because I'm viewed as "quiet".

I'm not sure what your point is. I do not know of a religion, church, denomination where such abusive behavior has not occurred.

DadBurnett
Sep 15th 2008, 05:54 AM
The Amish have always fascinated me as well, because of their modest and simple lifestyle. My favourite book series' by Beverly Lewis are about the Amish. (The Shunning, The Reckoning, The Postcard, The Preacher's Daughter) I haven't done any of my own research, but based on the books, I would say that while they are an outwardly Christian people, very few of them are actually saved. I don't believe they even teach salvation.

I respect you right to believe what ever you will, but I wonder about the foundation for this judgment (question) about the Amish? Basing one's opinions about others on works of fiction, no matter how well written or seemingly authentic, is problematic.
I have several times visited both Amish and Mennonite communities and have been given no reason to doubt their salvation, individually or collectively. On the other hand, show me a Christian church anywhere that does not have unsaved among its "family."

stillforgiven
Sep 16th 2008, 12:27 AM
I'm not sure what your point is. I do not know of a religion, church, denomination where such abusive behavior has not occurred.


That's is a good point, and I could even give a personal example from my early childhood, but that would hijack the thread.

One point that I recall about the abuses in the Amish community was about teaching a child to be quiet by stabbing them in the tongue with a sewing needle. When the leaders were later confronted, they defended the parents.

stillforgiven
Sep 16th 2008, 12:28 AM
I respect you right to believe what ever you will, but I wonder about the foundation for this judgment (question) about the Amish? Basing one's opinions about others on works of fiction, no matter how well written or seemingly authentic, is problematic.
I have several times visited both Amish and Mennonite communities and have been given no reason to doubt their salvation, individually or collectively. On the other hand, show me a Christian church anywhere that does not have unsaved among its "family."

Also good points made here.

The Parson
Sep 16th 2008, 03:48 AM
Actually, the Amish came out of the Mennonites who came from my particular brand of brethren. Their doctrine is very simular to their roots except they really really really stress 2nd Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Ashley274
Sep 17th 2008, 06:34 AM
Wow I didn't know this thread was still going.....sorry....All in all from what I have seen and read in here I will say I still admire them..I am sure like someone else said ....every chuch has a few people who are a problem and make them look bad.

diffangle
Sep 17th 2008, 03:00 PM
I'm not too fond of the fact that a huge number of puppy mill owners are Amish. The Scriptures tell us to regard the life of our animals(Prov. 12:10) and they clearly do not. :(



WTAE in Pittsburgh, PA, broadcasted an investigative report on puppy mills on 2006-MAY-04. 3 Reporter Sheldon Ingram wrote, in part:

"For those who have never heard of a puppy mill, it's equivalent to solitary confinement for young dogs, with substandard conditions. As a result, some of the dogs that emerge from puppy mills look either malnourished or in overall bad health. Channel 4 Action News went undercover to investigate dogs pulled from puppy mills.

Fed and bred. That's it. No walks. No interaction with humans. That means the dogs eat and relieve themselves in the same 2-by-2-foot cage for about eight years until their breeding days are done.





Arleen Rooney visited Lancaster County, PA, -- often called Amish country -- and was appalled by the conditions at an Amish-run puppy breeding kennels. She suggests that there are hundreds of Amish "puppy mills" operating legally and illegally in the area. She described one mill that she visited in a letter to the editor. She wrote, in part:

"I visited one commercial kennel in Ronks that had over 20 breeds housed in an old dilapidated barn. The puppy I saw as a potential buyer was filthy, had evidence of eye infection at only eight weeks of age and lacked any puppy animation whatsoever. The breeding dog, namely the bitches, are bred twice a year and all breeding and sales stock are forced to spend day in and day out on wire cage bottoms with little or no water."

"I saw evidence at two Amish run kennels where I could see the breeding stock as well as the puppies on a 95 degree day that none of the dogs had water and two that did had about one inch of dirty water in a green slime plastic container."

"There is little or no ventilation, exercise, medical or grooming attention. Long haired breeds such as Shih Tzus, Maltese, Lahsa Apso and Pekingese are never groomed and their hair coats become matted with feces and urine and they are subject to terrible eye infections." 5




Aaron Lapp in Washington County, PA, was sentenced to 145 days in prison and over $4,500 in restitution and fines for operating what country Judge NancyL. Butts called "a factory for dogs."

"Nine dogs in need of 'immediate care' were taken into SPCA custody as a result of the search, humane society officer Lawrence Woltz said. Some were matted with dried feces and urine while others had rashes and skin diseases, he said. Woltz showed a video recording of the farm taken on the day of the search. It showed dogs living in cramped wire cages, kennels overflowing with feces, urine and matted hair and drinking water that was bright green in color."

"Most of the cages did not have boards for the dogs to rest their feet from the wire and some dogs were chained outside with no shade, he said. 'Itís pretty clear what youíre operating is a factory ó for dogs,' Butts told Lapp as she pronounced sentence. 'If you need to grow something to sell it, donít grow animals, grow vegetables'. ... Woltz said that the 'stench was overwhelming' and the cages were 'overflowing' with feces and urine."
The final witness for the prosecution was Bernadette Miller, a woman who adopted one of the Yorkshire terriers taken from Lappís farm by the SPCA. 'It was traumatized. It was shaking, very scared. It was an empty shell. It had no personality,' she said of the dogís disposition when she first brought it home. 'Itís a work in progress.' Miller said the dog had to learn how to run, jump and play because it was never exposed to those activities before. She said that she had to take the animal to the veterinarian many times for treatment of its constant vomiting and diarrhea." 6

More http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish8.htm

DadBurnett
Sep 18th 2008, 02:43 AM
I'm not too fond of the fact that a huge number of puppy mill owners are Amish. The Scriptures tell us to regard the life of our animals(Prov. 12:10) and they clearly do not.
At the risk of hijacking this thread Ö I too am appalled by such conditions, I wonder how you arrive at the idea that a huge number of puppy mills are Amish. Hey, we have puppy mills out here in Oregon too and noe of them are Amish. I am dismayed to see this played out as an Amish problem and to see that puppies are singled out when it comes to cruelty to animals. To use such things as a Amish put-down is to turn a blind eye to the fact that this in not an Amish problem, itís a people problem. And, its not a puppy problem, its and animal problem. Have you every seen how calves are treated in order to produce veal? Out west we have free roaming milk cows, in the upper Midwest I have driven by many dairies where milk cows are confined to small individual pens, look at how the chickens we eat are raised Ö the simple fact that some Amish people may run puppy mills is the tiniest tip of the iceberg. I think we are way off base when we cast aspersions on a people because of the acts of a few. I would bet there are more than a few fundamentalist Christians raising veal or clipping chickens beaks Ö would we shine this same judgmental light on them? I think not. Please, letís not blow things out of proportion or make this a pick on the Amish thread Ö

diffangle
Sep 18th 2008, 05:35 AM
At the risk of hijacking this thread Ö I too am appalled by such conditions, I wonder how you arrive at the idea that a huge number of puppy mills are Amish. Hey, we have puppy mills out here in Oregon too and noe of them are Amish. I am dismayed to see this played out as an Amish problem and to see that puppies are singled out when it comes to cruelty to animals. To use such things as a Amish put-down is to turn a blind eye to the fact that this in not an Amish problem, itís a people problem. And, its not a puppy problem, its and animal problem. Have you every seen how calves are treated in order to produce veal? Out west we have free roaming milk cows, in the upper Midwest I have driven by many dairies where milk cows are confined to small individual pens, look at how the chickens we eat are raised Ö the simple fact that some Amish people may run puppy mills is the tiniest tip of the iceberg. I think we are way off base when we cast aspersions on a people because of the acts of a few. I would bet there are more than a few fundamentalist Christians raising veal or clipping chickens beaks Ö would we shine this same judgmental light on them? I think not. Please, letís not blow things out of proportion or make this a pick on the Amish thread Ö
From that article...



In some areas of the U.S. where Amish have settled, there is a high concentration of "puppy mills." The Pennsylvania Bureau of Dog Law Enforcement lists 243 kennels in Lancaster County. PA. 1 Holmes County, OH, has 470 kennels -- more than any other county in the nation.



Santorum and animal rescuers said an overwhelming number of puppy mill operators are Amish. Why the Amish? Why is it so prevalent in their community?" Ingram asked. I don't know. Maybe it's a different mindset in regards to animals," Santorum said. Channel 4 Action News tried to ask some Amish breeders, but they wouldn't talk.



" 'Amish country is synonymous with puppy mills, and Lancaster County is the capital of Pennsylvania puppy mills, with more than 200 kennels,' said Libby Williams, founder of New Jersey Consumers Against Pet Shop Abuse. 'Dogs ... should not be treated like chickens, penned up in coops for their entire lives just to breed'."
"Activists contend more than 200,000 puppies are churned out annually in and around Lancaster County." 1

I agree with what you've said, we treat animals with much cruelty... and it's not just the Amish but when it comes to the puppy mills the Amish are one(not saying they're the only ones) of the bigger offenders.

DadBurnett
Sep 19th 2008, 08:48 AM
From that article...
I agree with what you've said, we treat animals with much cruelty... and it's not just the Amish but when it comes to the puppy mills the Amish are one(not saying they're the only ones) of the bigger offenders.


Weíve clearly veered from the original subject of the thread Ö

Thanks for your post and your response re: Amish puppy mills. You have opened my eyes to something that not seen in my several visits to Amish country. Also, in doing a little research, it appears that some Mennonites are involved also.

One eye-opening resource for info is

http://www.njcapsa.org/pdf/TheAmishConnection.pdf (http://www.njcapsa.org/pdf/TheAmishConnection.pdf)

I would also say their article clearly presents a dog lovers (donít get me started on that culture in this country that eats dogs) perspective put forth by a private organization concerned with the health and well-being of dogs. Iím not casting aspersions on them, but they clearly have an agenda.

This is a significant problem, but as I alluded to in my earlier post, the Amish and dogs and puppies are but the tip of the iceberg. Yes, you have to start somewhere, so my next question here is, is anyone doing anything more that just talking about the problem?

diffangle
Sep 19th 2008, 02:21 PM
Weíve clearly veered from the original subject of the thread Ö
Kindof yes, kindof not... I think it's important to know that they aren't the ideal picture of holiness. ;) Imo, something is really off when one can so coldly treat His creatures that way. I also think it's off how they isolate themselves away from society... how do they expect to do the thing we're told to be doing(spreading the Gospel) by isolating themselves?



Yes, you have to start somewhere, so my next question here is, is anyone doing anything more that just talking about the problem?

Talking about it does help get the word out about the horrible practice, I also think that not buying puppy mill dogs is a proactive step too. Also, there are groups that prosecute these farmers when they can and Oprah even did a show that exposed the Amish puppy mills. It all helps.

graceforme
Sep 25th 2008, 01:54 AM
Kindof yes, kindof not... I think it's important to know that they aren't the ideal picture of holiness. ;) Imo, something is really off when one can so coldly treat His creatures that way. I also think it's off how they isolate themselves away from society... how do they expect to do the thing we're told to be doing(spreading the Gospel) by isolating themselves?


Talking about it does help get the word out about the horrible practice, I also think that not buying puppy mill dogs is a proactive step too. Also, there are groups that prosecute these farmers when they can and Oprah even did a show that exposed the Amish puppy mills. It all helps.

I have know many Amish and Mennonite people in my life. I was married to a Mennonite man for ten years. My son has relatives who are still horse-and-buggy Amish. In the 10 years that I was around his family, I never had anyone ever attempt to witness to me, or to even find out what my spiritual condition was. They just didn't seem to care at all. (I was not saved at that time). I do remember one time my one brother-in-law asked me, "How's your religious life?" Now, there's a good opener, huh?

We divorced in 1979, after 10 years of marriage. No one ever tried to minister to me in any way. I think they were just glad to be rid of me.

I don't want to imply that all Amish people are this way, but the ones I've known sure are.

My pastor's wife has long hair. She was in a music store one day, and a young Amish fellow saw her with her hair hanging down, and he proceded to tell her that she shouldn't be out in public with her hair down. Can you imagine someone being so rude?

diffangle
Sep 25th 2008, 03:49 AM
I have know many Amish and Mennonite people in my life. I was married to a Mennonite man for ten years. My son has relatives who are still horse-and-buggy Amish. In the 10 years that I was around his family, I never had anyone ever attempt to witness to me, or to even find out what my spiritual condition was. They just didn't seem to care at all. (I was not saved at that time). I do remember one time my one brother-in-law asked me, "How's your religious life?" Now, there's a good opener, huh?

We divorced in 1979, after 10 years of marriage. No one ever tried to minister to me in any way. I think they were just glad to be rid of me.

I don't want to imply that all Amish people are this way, but the ones I've known sure are.

My pastor's wife has long hair. She was in a music store one day, and a young Amish fellow saw her with her hair hanging down, and he proceded to tell her that she shouldn't be out in public with her hair down. Can you imagine someone being so rude?
That's too bad... not suprising tho considering how they isolate themselves... but too bad noneoftheless. :(

Ashley274
Sep 25th 2008, 06:20 AM
Hey all thank you for the replies they are ALL appreciated. I have worked with rescue groups who have rescued dogs (taken, stolen and purchased as well as getting some closed) and really care about animals.....trust me I know abused dogs and cats.....have had them and worked in rescue. ...that all being said having already touched on this topic in here can we please move on to my original questions? Could we start a thread on Puppy Mills??? in Anything goes..You all would be stunned by the 2 leading states in the Mill business and PA is not one....

Jumping back to the woman who had the comment made on her hair......maybe that is how the man was witnessing? I have to google it later but some campus is getting fed up with some christian group because of their method of witness which from what I heard on TV was bugging female college students by telling the women to submit to they husbands...we can't judge all christians by this so why judge all Amish by that.....

I basically want to know do they believe Jesus is their personal savior?

Elouise
Sep 25th 2008, 08:02 PM
I think there is a heap of those who are pre-destained to be saved will be and to say you will be one who is saved smacks of arrogance rather than humility.
Remember this is an anabaptist understanding of theology rather than that which many here are used to.

From reading and from belonging to a Brethren church in which the hat debate of over 20 years running nearly destroyed the church I can understand why a man felt the need to tell a married woman to pin her hair up. To have it down is a cultural proclamation of 'availability' and for a pastors wife to do so reflects upon the pastor and his representation of Christ.
I would not dream of walking into some chapels without having my hair pinned and a handy headscarf ready to whip up a suitable head-covering because that is where they are.

graceforme
Sep 26th 2008, 12:43 AM
Hey all thank you for the replies they are ALL appreciated. I have worked with rescue groups who have rescued dogs (taken, stolen and purchased as well as getting some closed) and really care about animals.....trust me I know abused dogs and cats.....have had them and worked in rescue. ...that all being said having already touched on this topic in here can we please move on to my original questions? Could we start a thread on Puppy Mills??? in Anything goes..You all would be stunned by the 2 leading states in the Mill business and PA is not one....

Jumping back to the woman who had the comment made on her hair......maybe that is how the man was witnessing? I have to google it later but some campus is getting fed up with some christian group because of their method of witness which from what I heard on TV was bugging female college students by telling the women to submit to they husbands...we can't judge all christians by this so why judge all Amish by that.....

I basically want to know do they believe Jesus is their personal savior?

I really don't know what they believe about Christ as Savior, based on the fact that not once did any of them attempt to witness to me, a known unsaved person. Let's do some internet investigation and see what we can find out, okay?

graceforme
Sep 26th 2008, 12:57 AM
I did some internet research and this is what I came up with. The following is a direct quote from an internet article called "The Amish-What They Believe."



The Amish believe that:

The Bible is the inspired word of God
There is one God eternally existing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-17).
God loved the world so much that he gave his only son, Jesus, to die on the cross for the sins of the world.
Through faith in the shed blood of Jesus we are reconciled to God.
Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, a free gift bestowed by God on those who repent and believe.
As Christians, we should live as brothers
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and also empowers believers for service and holy living.
The church is separate from the State
We are committed to peace.
Faith calls for a lifestyle of discipleship and good works service and holy living.
One scripture often quoted in Amish worship services is:

Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (Romans 12:2)
The Amish are admonished to live a life that is separate from the world.

There is more information available. Just "google" Amish Doctrines or Amish Beliefs and lots of sites will come up for you to look at. Good luck.

God Bless.

Ashley274
Sep 26th 2008, 04:35 AM
Wow hey thank you Grace this is awesome info and I can't disagree with them..

Marc B
Nov 1st 2008, 03:17 AM
Interesting how we all essentially believe in the same things but differ so much in our approach to them. From extreme legalistic isolationists to liberal homosexual marriage approving churches. Unreal. :crazy:

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.