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Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 03:34 AM
Are our Churches in the 21st century and their services what Peter and Paul had in mind when they started their 1st century Churches in your opinion?

Everybody says you need to go to Church if you are a born from above Christian, but is today's style of Church services even something we should be attending? Most of it is watered down scriptural preaching at best, with a get what you can get from God attitude, instead of a what can I do for God attitude. what's your opinion on the 21st century Church services, and are they something we should be a part of?

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 04:08 AM
No where near close kind sir. The church has been through several changes since the 1st century.

1.All Israelite Apostles with a few gentiles
2.2nd Century to 3rd century (mostly gentiles and few Isralites)
3.4th century (beginning of the Catholics and scatter pockest of independent gentile bodies)
4.14 Century (the beginning of the Protestant movements out of the Catholics)
5.19th Century (Pentecostals begin to spring out of the Protestant movements)
6.20th Century (Charismatics begin to spring out of the Protestant movements)
7.21st Century (TBD) LOL My guest is the Spiritual Jews spring out of the Protestant, Pentecostal, and Charismatic movements.


This is just a quick general view of the changes. I think it has something to do with the book of Revelation.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:12 AM
No where near close kind sir. The church has been through several changes since the 1st century.

1.All Israelite Apostles with a few gentiles
2.2nd Century to 3rd century (mostly gentiles and few Isralites)
3.4th century (beginning of the Catholics and scatter pockest of independent gentile bodies)
4.14 Century (the beginning of the Protestant movements out of the Catholics)
5.19th Century (Pentecostals begin to spring out of the Protestant movements)
6.20th Century (Charismatics begin to spring out of the Protestant movements)
7.21st Century (TBD) LOL My guest is the Spiritual Jews spring out of the Protestant, Pentecostal, and Charismatic movements.


This is just a quick general view of the changes. I think it has something to do with the book of Revelation.

So, do you feel comfortable attending 21st century Church services?

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 04:28 AM
So, do you feel comfortable attending 21st century Church services?

I attend home churches in the fashion of similiar to most mainstream protestants with a mixture of Jewish flavor.

On Sabbath at 7 pm Friday night at our central location:
We start with praise and worship (nothing new)
Then alter call and intercessory prayer
Offering
Congregational Reading
ten minute break for sound set up and fellowship to greet new people
Sabbath Message/Children Church
Close and go home

Sunday at 10:30 Worship at various home sites that rotate:
We start with praise and worship (nothing new)
Then alter call and intercessory prayer
ten minute break for sound set up and fellowship to greet new people
Scripture Study
Offering
Close
Then my favorite part (LOL) we all bring dishes every Sunday and potluck fellowship after service.

Emanate
Aug 18th 2008, 04:28 AM
I don't feel comfortable, but I do.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:33 AM
I don't feel comfortable, but I do.

Is it because you don't like being around large groups of people, or is it because of what's going on in the services that makes you uncomfortable?

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 04:38 AM
So, do you feel comfortable attending 21st century Church services?

Well I forgot something, to answer your question.

Yes I feel comfortable as long as they do not ask me to speak. I can sit in any Scripture Preaching church that is not teaching false doctrine. They do not necessarily have to agree with everything I have learned, but we have to have the same Jesus. Most do, but some might have small errors in their worship. I do not criticize or point out these errors. I simply praise God and keep fellowshipping.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:47 AM
Well I forgot something, to answer your question.

Yes I feel comfortable as long as they do not ask me to speak. I can sit in any Scripture Preaching church that is not teaching false doctrine. They do not necessarily have to agree with everything I have learned, but we have to have the same Jesus. Most do, but some might have small errors in their worship. I do not criticize or point out these errors. I simply praise God and keep fellowshipping.

Remember in Paul's pastoral epistles to Tomothy and Titus, one of the requirements for any pastor is to teach, and I have seen very few pastors in my life who teach. Most just spout out the same old watered down one Bible verse per sermon messages, promoting their man made doctrines, over reading the word of God after everything they say. Reading one verse of scripture in Church, and then preaching a message, is not teaching. I am not anti-pastor, I'm pro the word of God being taught in church in the original manuscript languages. This is rarely going on in the Church today.

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 04:57 AM
Remember in Paul's pastoral epistles to Tomothy and Titus, one of the requirements for any pastor is to teach, and I have seen very few pastors in my life who teach. Most just spout out the same old watered down one Bible verse per sermon messages, promoting their man made doctrines, over reading the word of God after everything they say. Reading one verse of scripture in Church, and then preaching a message, is not teaching. I am not anti-pastor, I'm pro the word of God being taught in church in the original manuscript languages. This is rarely going on in the Church today.

With this being true, most of the pew sitters are clueless as to your point that they are not being fed properly. They do not know that they are getting similac milk instead of strong meat. It is up to you and people like you to distribute the meat in the love and decent order. First find where you should be planted yourself (I think you are already planted right), then grow from there. It is not our responsibility to shepherd other flocks but our own flocks. I undergoing a transition of the same sort brother, so I understand what you mean. I have learned some strong meat, but the biggest obstacle has been the milk of religiousity in others. Patience is the only means for both of us to continue to grow (by this I mean you and those still in need of milk, referring to pastors who can only distribute milk).

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:12 AM
With this being true, most of the pew sitters are clueless as to your point that they are not being fed properly. They do not know that they are getting similac milk instead of strong meat. It is up to you and people like you to distribute the meat in the love and decent order. First find where you should be planted yourself (I think you are already planted right), then grow from there. It is not our responsibility to shepherd other flocks but our own flocks. I undergoing a transition of the same sort brother, so I understand what you mean. I have learned some strong meat, but the biggest obstacle has been the milk of religiousity in others. Patience is the only means for both of us to continue to grow (by this I mean you and those still in need of milk, referring to pastors who can only distribute milk).

I understand where you are coming from brother. It's frustrating trying to find a Church that teaches scripture instead of man made doctrine and reads more then one Bible verse every sermon. I have not had the good fortune to find a Church that has good leadership, and it makes me want to pastor the Church instead, even though I am not called to do so. I know I shouldn't not want to be a part of today's 21st century Church, but I honestly have no use for it. In my opinion, they are way out of Biblical order.

Athanasius
Aug 18th 2008, 05:13 AM
And that's the problem.
Everyone's got an opinion :rolleyes:

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:21 AM
And that's the problem.
Everyone's got an opinion :rolleyes:

So, you like the state of the 21st century Church? If so, why?

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 05:30 AM
I understand where you are coming from brother. It's frustrating trying to find a Church that teaches scripture instead of man made doctrine and reads more then one Bible verse every sermon. I have not had the good fortune to find a Church that has good leadership, and it makes me want to pastor the Church instead, even though I am not called to do so. I know I shouldn't not want to be a part of today's 21st century Church, but I honestly have no use for it. In my opinion, they are way out of Biblical order.

There a few that have fallen prey to religiousity in your local area. The key has something to do with are they building a christian community or just having church (going through the motions but no true brotherhood that leaves the church by taking it into one another's home).

Some Pastors are hirelings (it is an occupation), some are wolves (they do it for an agenda), and some are heritiary (they are born into it). Few are shepherds.

The return of the Apostolic will fix a little of this.

manichunter
Aug 18th 2008, 05:36 AM
So, you like the state of the 21st century Church? If so, why?

Most of what I see myself is religion (grace abuse), no true holiness, and factionalism. So, I am not to impressed either. However, like Elijah I had to discover that I am not alone. God has others on the same course of preparing His body for the end.

I believe we should love regardless, and no be controlled or let our personal fustrations influence our felllowshipping and sharing. Do our thing and let others do their thing unless God says something different. I tend to cause a lot of controversy, but it is done in love. I believe in challenging like minded people to take the course or path of self investigation, then I try to stop there. To mental believe something is not enough. Everything must be established as a spiritual truth based on trust, hence self discovery is the only means.

Athanasius
Aug 18th 2008, 05:40 AM
So, you like the state of the 21st century Church? If so, why?

Because the church is people and Christ died for them.
21st century or not.

godsgirl
Aug 18th 2008, 11:16 AM
What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.

That, according to scripture is "church'.

seamus414
Aug 18th 2008, 12:10 PM
Are our Churches in the 21st century and their services what Peter and Paul had in mind when they started their 1st century Churches in your opinion?

Everybody says you need to go to Church if you are a born from above Christian, but is today's style of Church services even something we should be attending? Most of it is watered down scriptural preaching at best, with a get what you can get from God attitude, instead of a what can I do for God attitude. what's your opinion on the 21st century Church services, and are they something we should be a part of?


By and large, I do not think the Apostles would be surprised at where we are right now.

HOwever...

I think the Apostles would be shocked at how disorderly and non-liturgical many Christians have become.

I also think they may be surprised at how assimilated Christians have become with the world and society.

Emanate
Aug 18th 2008, 01:32 PM
Ron

It is the practices and creeds of the modern church that make me uncomfortable.

HisLeast
Aug 18th 2008, 01:43 PM
10 million people with bullhorns blustering. Each of them claiming authority. One says they have exclusive authority from the word, others claim from apostolic succession, others from signs of the holy spirit. Still others claim authority by lack of association with other authorities. All the while telling those of us scratching our heads that finding the truth is as easy as "being in spirit". You can go to a church like mine... where our Pastor teaches with all his might, makes no apology for to the world for the message, and the congregation busts its hump to be a force in the community.... but there will always be those who "know the truth"... that despite our teachings and works, we're nothing but a fraud.

Hence, if real truth is out there, it is utterly indistinguishable from the unending cacophony of pretenders. One could pour one's heart and soul into seeking. One could spend a lifetime reading the texts, studying history, and undertaking mighty works in a humble spirit... and it all amounts to a guess, exercised in fear. Ours is to roll the dice in despair, scrabbling what confidence we can from the bleakest of hopes.

seamus414
Aug 18th 2008, 02:52 PM
HisLeast
10 million people with bullhorns blustering. Each of them claiming authority. One says they have exclusive authority from the word, others claim from apostolic succession, others from signs of the holy spirit.

Don't forget us Anglicans who claim that all three have authority! ;) Nothing like an Anglican who tries to make everyone happy.:hug:

HisLeast
Aug 18th 2008, 02:58 PM
Don't forget us Anglicans who claim that all three have authority! ;) Nothing like an Anglican who tries to make everyone happy.:hug:

None were forgotten, including my own non-denominations.

SpokenFor
Aug 18th 2008, 03:22 PM
The return of the Apostolic will fix a little of this.

Are you referring to the New Apostolic Reformation?

crawfish
Aug 18th 2008, 03:49 PM
The big question is, what is the purpose of "Church"? Is it a place where I go to be fed, or is it a place I go to feed others? Church is, first and foremost, about community; about our responsibility to our fellow man to use our talents to spread His kingdom and serve His people. As such, it's less important to ensure that our particular church obeys all the jots and tittles of the law and more important to make our influence felt in a positive way.

With the prevalence of the megachurches today, that is even more important. If you have a church with 5-10,000 members, where over 500 unchurched and unsaved show up every single weekend, what kind of message would you want to send? Complicated messages that they cannot understand, or grace-centered, baby-step messages designed to encourage them to take that step into the next level? I'd argue the latter, which makes the individual believer responsible for helping his or her small group get more of the "meat" necessary for growth in Christ.

seamus414
Aug 18th 2008, 04:29 PM
The big question is, what is the purpose of "Church"? Is it a place where I go to be fed, or is it a place I go to feed others? Church is, first and foremost, about community; about our responsibility to our fellow man to use our talents to spread His kingdom and serve His people. As such, it's less important to ensure that our particular church obeys all the jots and tittles of the law and more important to make our influence felt in a positive way.

With the prevalence of the megachurches today, that is even more important. If you have a church with 5-10,000 members, where over 500 unchurched and unsaved show up every single weekend, what kind of message would you want to send? Complicated messages that they cannot understand, or grace-centered, baby-step messages designed to encourage them to take that step into the next level? I'd argue the latter, which makes the individual believer responsible for helping his or her small group get more of the "meat" necessary for growth in Christ.


I think the Church is: (1) a hospital for the spiritually sick and (2) where people are armed and comissioned for spiritual battle in the mission field (wherever that may be for that person).

The purpose of Sunday service is for the worship of God alone and has nothing to do with one's own "spiritual feeding" or any other issue.

I think megachurches are a terrible idea and only serve to make lukewarm Christians. Speaking generally here, I think accumulating a congregation of thousands for the purpose of stroking the clergy's ego more than it serves the Lord. There is no reason why a church should exceed 500 to 1000 people per Sunday. ONce that threshold is met, the church should plant a new one.

As a side note, I have a big problem with the churches that have become so wordly that their narthex looks like a hotel lobby and they have special named rooms and a coffee shoppe and the "visitor's center" and all of that (not to mention all of the broadway show staging effects during the service).

ConqueredbyLove
Aug 18th 2008, 04:36 PM
Remember in Paul's pastoral epistles to Tomothy and Titus, one of the requirements for any pastor is to teach, and I have seen very few pastors in my life who teach. Most just spout out the same old watered down one Bible verse per sermon messages, promoting their man made doctrines, over reading the word of God after everything they say. Reading one verse of scripture in Church, and then preaching a message, is not teaching. I am not anti-pastor, I'm pro the word of God being taught in church in the original manuscript languages. This is rarely going on in the Church today.

Almost every church I have attended, the Pastors have been excellent teachers!

You say "this is rarely going on in the Church today", and yet I have found the opposite to be true.

The pastors I have known are extremely hard-working, diligent, love the Lord with all of their hearts and are quite the examples to me.

I will be forever grateful to God for giving me such fine, Godly pastors! What a blessing they have been to me and they have been used by God to set the course of my ministry.

I am saddened you have not found the same.

ServantofTruth
Aug 18th 2008, 04:54 PM
I don't hide my struggles with the organised churches locally. But i do recognise, when i am wise, that a lot of the fault is in me. As long as the Word of God is there i would be happy to attend.

So many different externals - i'd love just once to attend a mega church. Most near me in the UK are 100-150 members max. I've been to football statium christian rallys though.

Times have changed - i just wish churches were set up as the bible tells us to do it. However some of the strongest christians i know still want to ignore the bible in this area.


Big SofTy

ConqueredbyLove
Aug 18th 2008, 04:57 PM
I don't hide my struggles with the organised churches locally. But i do recognise, when i am wise, that a lot of the fault is in me. As long as the Word of God is there i would be happy to attend.

So many different externals - i'd love just once to attend a mega church. Most near me in the UK are 100-150 members max. I've been to football statium christian rallys though.

Times have changed - i just wish churches were set up as the bible tells us to do it. However some of the strongest christians i know still want to ignore the bible in this area.


Big SofTy

Gone are the days of Spurgeon and Alexander McClaren over there...So sad.

student of the Lamb
Aug 18th 2008, 04:57 PM
If you ain't gettin you toes stepped on, you ain't in church. That is unless you are a servant of God and giving freely of yourself, following God's laws and doing as Christ commanded.

Our pastor is well trained in greek and hebrews and majored in the Old Testament. He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine. He will not allow any doctrine to affect what God has to say to us. He does not hold back on what God has said. Noone in our church will ever say that he has watered down his messages.

We are also very active at outreach as was commanded of us by Jesus Christ and written in the New Testament five times.

I do think that this does make our attendence suffer as people do not want to hear God's whole truth.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 06:25 PM
If you ain't gettin you toes stepped on, you ain't in church. That is unless you are a servant of God and giving freely of yourself, following God's laws and doing as Christ commanded.

Our pastor is well trained in greek and hebrews and majored in the Old Testament. He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine. He will not allow any doctrine to affect what God has to say to us. He does not hold back on what God has said. No one in our church will ever say that he has watered down his messages.

We are also very active at outreach as was commanded of us by Jesus Christ and written in the New Testament five times.

I do think that this does make our attendence suffer as people do not want to hear God's whole truth.

Your church sounds awesome. I have yet to find a church like this, but I'm sure I will some day.

Emanate
Aug 18th 2008, 06:33 PM
"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 06:37 PM
"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

I took him to mean that his pastor teaches scripture over man made doctrine?:confused

But I may have misunderstood him?

student of the Lamb
Aug 18th 2008, 11:37 PM
You are correct Ron. I may have also misunderstood Emanate also. I took him to mean that the Old Testament was more relevant than the New Testament. If that is what Emanate has presented then I would disagree with that because that would mean that Jesus Christ was not the most relevant part of our faith.

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 01:22 AM
You are correct Ron. I may have also misunderstood Emanate also. I took him to mean that the Old Testament was more relevant than the New Testament. If that is what Emanate has presented then I would disagree with that because that would mean that Jesus Christ was not the most relevant part of our faith.


What part of my post suggested that the OT was more relevant than the NT?

simple
Aug 19th 2008, 03:38 AM
Because the church is people and Christ died for them.
21st century or not.
Christ died for ALL people even his enemys. That doesnt make them right OR saved! False teaching still can send them to hell. Thats why Christ warned about false teachers.

student of the Lamb
Aug 19th 2008, 03:39 AM
"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have said. You did not say that they are of equal importance. Is that what you were inferring or are you inferring that the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament? As I said in my earlier post, I do feel that if you believe the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament then the relevance of Jesus Christ is lost.

simple
Aug 19th 2008, 03:51 AM
In my meaningless opinion, the biggest problem with Christ church is a lack of knowlege of what is in the Bible. Second is that Churches try to please everyone (don't want to step on anyones toes, might hurt attendance & offering) instead of just presenting Gods truth as it is. Pastors can water it down and sugar coat it all they want but when they stand before their maker , it will be according to his word that that will determine where they spend eternity.

simple
Aug 19th 2008, 04:05 AM
"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

I agree the new testament is not more important than the old, you can't have the new without the old. Jesus taught from and qoated from the old so he thought it pretty important.

SIG
Aug 19th 2008, 04:07 AM
Random thoughts:

1. Picture for a moment that you are God looking at all the Christians in the world meeting on any given Sunday. Can you see the incredible diversity?

2. While the Spirit is always the Spirit, the outward forms of meeting are subject to change--and change they have. If the form is not sinful, what's the problem? (Is anyone here claiming that these congregations that fall short are in sin?)

3. As far as I can see, the Bible does not specifically say, "Do church this way." Why would anyone assume that the First-Century church was or is a model for all centuries? And if it was, has God allowed all the following centuries to go wrong?

4. What makes any of us think that we have an accurate picture of what was happening in the First-Century congregations? (Don't forget how much energy Paul spent on correcting serious errors.) Might we be romanticising our imaginary ideas of those congregations? (Recall also Christ's letters to the seven churches in Revelation. They were hardly ideal.)

5. Recall the saying: "If you find the perfect church, it will no longer be perfect once you join it."

6. Opinions are a reflection of the flesh. In our discontent, are we expressing
God's desire to advance His Kingdom (even through a fallible church), or our opinions?

7. God can and does work all things together for good, for those who love Him...

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 04:57 AM
Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have said. You did not say that they are of equal importance. Is that what you were inferring or are you inferring that the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament? As I said in my earlier post, I do feel that if you believe the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament then the relevance of Jesus Christ is lost.


I do not believe that OT is more relevant, nor do I believe that it is any less relevant than the NT.

But I do not agree to saying that the relevance of Messiah Jesus is lost without the NT. Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Athanasius
Aug 19th 2008, 05:06 AM
Christ died for ALL people even his enemys. That doesnt make them right OR saved! False teaching still can send them to hell. Thats why Christ warned about false teachers.

I'm sorry, my '21st century church' must be different from everyone elses '21st century church'. Maybe there's a problem with broadly generalizing the state of the [entire] 'church' - the entire body of believers - as '21st century', ergo, wrong. :rolleyes:

Yes, there is a problem with the church! Guess what? It's always been there, it's nothing new.

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2008, 05:28 AM
I'm sorry, my '21st century church' must be different from everyone elses '21st century church'. Maybe there's a problem with broadly generalizing the state of the [entire] 'church' - the entire body of believers - as '21st century', ergo, wrong. :rolleyes:

No matter what our churches do or say, we will always be corporately, completely, and irredeemably lost according to some. The churches harshest critics and most untrustworthy allies are within its own walls.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:35 AM
No matter what our churches do or say, we will always be corporately, completely, and irredeemably lost according to some. The churches harshest critics and most untrustworthy allies are within its own walls.

True. I am way to critical of every church I have been a member of in my lifetime.

Also, the meanest people on the planet at times are church going folk.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 06:21 AM
I wish there were a local church I could attend. Unfortunately I have a choice of two types in our vicinity: spiritually dead and dry with the hymn/prayer/hymn sandwich, or crazy WOF mixed with African traditional religion and heavy shepherding. I choose neither, and I feed myself until such time as God does plant me somewhere. We have the largest megachurch in Europe a couple of miles away, but the theology is way way off and they're being investigated for financial fraud. My views over the years have gone from:

- I don't trust them, they'll just hurt me again

to

- They're not doing it exactly the way I like so I won't go

to

- Where can I go and serve as part of a body?

This has probably been the biggest struggle of my spiritual walk for the past 6 years. You Americans seem to have so many churches and opportunities compared to the spiritual desert which is the UK. I eagerly desire to be part of a body of fellow Christians, worshipping and learning together, and yet each door I push closes. I guess God has a plan in it somehow but for the life of me I don't know what it is. Very frustrating.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:27 AM
I wish there were a local church I could attend. Unfortunately I have a choice of two types in our vicinity: spiritually dead and dry with the hymn/prayer/hymn sandwich, or crazy WOF mixed with African traditional religion and heavy shepherding. I choose neither, and I feed myself until such time as God does plant me somewhere. We have the largest megachurch in Europe a couple of miles away, but the theology is way way off and they're being investigated for financial fraud. My views over the years have gone from:

- I don't trust them, they'll just hurt me again

to

- They're not doing it exactly the way I like so I won't go

to

- Where can I go and serve as part of a body?

This has probably been the biggest struggle of my spiritual walk for the past 6 years. You Americans seem to have so many churches and opportunities compared to the spiritual desert which is the UK. I eagerly desire to be part of a body of fellow Christians, worshipping and learning together, and yet each door I push closes. I guess God has a plan in it somehow but for the life of me I don't know what it is. Very frustrating.

Most American churches are the same as what you described, and we have a church on every street corner, in every town here in the USA.

The lack of churches is not our problem, what's being done in them is.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 06:36 AM
Fair point - I tend to think with the law of averages, the greater the number of churches the more likelihood that some of them will be good places to be.

You know what we need? A dose of old-fashioned persecution - there's nothing like it for separating the sheep from the goats and causing people to really turn to God and take Him seriously.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:50 AM
You know what we need? A dose of old-fashioned persecution - there's nothing like it for separating the sheep from the goats and causing people to really turn to God and take Him seriously.

If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.:cry:

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 07:36 AM
If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.:cry:

There is a method to some of madness or mania dear Ron. Some of actual know and see the storm coming. We know that business as usual will be over soon. It will be about having the spiritual character intack to withstand the evil and oppression coming.

valleybldr
Aug 19th 2008, 09:06 AM
And that's the problem.
Everyone's got an opinion :rolleyes: Ahh, so maybe we are like the first century church. todd

9Marksfan
Aug 19th 2008, 09:31 AM
Gone are the days of Spurgeon and Alexander McClaren over there...So sad.

There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

But praise God there are men in the US with these ministries - Piper, MacArthur, Begg, Ryken, Ligon Duncan, etc - we need guys like these in the UK!!!!

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2008, 11:56 AM
If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.:cry:

See, my church is big, has meaningful worship time, serious bible study time, and dutiful community outreach. We have several missions to the most notorious housing projects in Chicago, we run a soup kitchen, we have special programs for single parents, we have an aggressive apologetics program. Being blessed with a few affluent members, we also fund dozens and dozens of missionaries at home and around the globe. Yet always there are those who will ignore us and declare that the Lord's church is dead. Of course, you might not mean ALL of them... but I'm left to wonder, if you don't mean it that way, then why say it that way.

Why do I need to wish for persecution when OUR OWN BRETHREN make us feel weak, useless, and reprobate?

Two more things
1) You have no IDEA how our church would do under persecution. For all you know that could be the spark that sets the fire (in those churches where the fire isn't roaring). For those that really do abandon the church... well... there's your chaff for you. The rest of us who have been busting our humps all along will still be here.

2) Are YOU ready for persecution? I hear plenty of tough talk, ever ready to stare down the nose at 'those others' who don't know/can't stand real persecution. But unless you've had the daylights kicked out of you, served jail time, gone hungry, or been extorted because of your faith save the lecture. I think most of us would be pretty shocked to find out just how bad torture and oppression really are. I don't think there's a single one of us ready to tell their child "sorry, we can't eat tonight because mommy and daddy are Christians and nobody will sell us food".

The 21st century Western church is NOT dead!!

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2008, 11:58 AM
There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?


Can't speak for the UK myself, but friends over in Ireland tell me that Catholic outreach programs are highly successful these days and the old churches are starting to burst at the seams.

Just what I heard. Can't verify.

seamus414
Aug 19th 2008, 12:01 PM
There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

But praise God there are men in the US with these ministries - Piper, MacArthur, Begg, Ryken, Ligon Duncan, etc - we need guys like these in the UK!!!!

Well Fr. Niky Gumbel (founder of the Alpha Course) is in the U.K. at his parish Holy Trinity Brompton which is a near mega-church. That church is proudly prclaiming the Gospel!

Check it out: http://www.htb.org.uk/

uric3
Aug 19th 2008, 12:55 PM
Are our Churches in the 21st century and their services what Peter and Paul had in mind when they started their 1st century Churches in your opinion?

Everybody says you need to go to Church if you are a born from above Christian, but is today's style of Church services even something we should be attending? Most of it is watered down scriptural preaching at best, with a get what you can get from God attitude, instead of a what can I do for God attitude. what's your opinion on the 21st century Church services, and are they something we should be a part of?


I think they would be sorely disappointed in what has happened to the church over the years. Christ prayed for unity and according to 1 Cor 1:10 it states "...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However today its just the complete opposite... choose the church of your choice... you want to be homosexual we have a church that will be ok with this kind of live style.

Want to divorce and remarry for any reason sure we got a church that will accept that...

Want to be a drunkard and live it up sure we have a church for that to...

Want to go to church were we cancel services for the super bowl and instead of preach Christ will have a superbowl party instead? Have that to...

Want to attend church just to play sports and do recreational activities? Sure we have a church for that to... you don't even have to learn about Christ just go have fun!...

Its sick really when you think about it... how can people go to churches like that when the bible condemns a lot of the behavior they uphold!

I'm not saying the church I go to is perfect by any means... however we try our best to model ourselves after the 1st century church by following all the examples and doctrine we have in the NT concerning the church such as how its governed, worship, etc...

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2008, 01:28 PM
I think they would be sorely disappointed in what has happened to the church over the years. Christ prayed for unity and according to 1 Cor 1:10 it states "...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However today its just the complete opposite... choose the church of your choice... you want to be homosexual we have a church that will be ok with this kind of live style.

<snip>

Its sick really when you think about it... how can people go to churches like that when the bible condemns a lot of the behavior they uphold!

I'm not saying the church I go to is perfect by any means... however we try our best to model ourselves after the 1st century church by following all the examples and doctrine we have in the NT concerning the church such as how its governed, worship, etc...

Its NOT the opposite. Its exactly how its always been. Some pillars of faith, some on shaky foundation, and some capable of bearing zero load. I believe an honest look @ 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians will show that the 1st century church had stumbling blocks and hang ups of its own. I mean for crying out loud the Corinthians were BOASTING about men in its church who had slept with their own mothers!

The letters of the New Testament have many cases where you can practically see Paul's face getting red in anger. So 1st century Christendom clearly wasn't a idyllic age that puts us to shame. And within those tirades is his letter to the Ephesians. Those churches that WERE holding the line got a nice big pat on the back. But you don't see much of that today, I'll tell you that.

uric3
Aug 19th 2008, 01:43 PM
Its NOT the opposite. Its exactly how its always been. Some pillars of faith, some on shaky foundation, and some capable of bearing zero load. I believe an honest look @ 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians will show that the 1st century church had stumbling blocks and hang ups of its own. I mean for crying out loud the Corinthians were BOASTING about men in its church who had slept with their own mothers!

The letters of the New Testament have many cases where you can practically see Paul's face getting red in anger. So 1st century Christendom clearly wasn't a idyllic age that puts us to shame. And within those tirades is his letter to the Ephesians. Those churches that WERE holding the line got a nice big pat on the back. But you don't see much of that today, I'll tell you that.

I agree with you there the 1st Century church had its issues don't get me wrong... however I don't think there was near the doctrinal division there is today... Granted you mentioned 1st Cor 5 about the young man sleeping with his fathers wife... they just swept it under the rug and didn't do any disciplinary action. Which they corrected according to 2nd Cor.

Once again I agree with you that the 1st century church had its issues... however I would state most of them where more doctrinally correct and on the right track than most churches today. However reguardless of where you go you will have members who fall short etc...

Only difference is today its accepted and the church accepts it... rather than being corrected from what we know and have from the Bible. Such as some of the examples I stated above... they know its wrong the Bible states it wrong yet the Church (not just one member) all say its ok or support such and such sinful act.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 05:31 PM
Well Fr. Niky Gumbel (founder of the Alpha Course) is in the U.K. at his parish Holy Trinity Brompton which is a near mega-church. That church is proudly prclaiming the Gospel!

Check it out: http://www.htb.org.uk/


I've been to HTB several times. Not exactly my scene - too 'church programmey' for me - but yes they don't fudge issues as far as I can tell. Sandy the vicar is a sweet guy. They're very accepting of the homeless people in the area, despite it being a very affluent part of London; one baptismal service this guy being baptised spoke of how he started sheltering in the entrance when it rained, people got talking to him as a smelly muttering alcoholic, found him a place to live and a job, he became a Christian, and has been a member of the church ever since. It was lovely - the Gospel in action.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:19 PM
Do some church hopping for a few years, and you will see just how messed up the church in the USA is in the 21st century.

Most people are settled into a good church home, and have no clue what's going on in the other churches throughout their community.

sunsetssplendor
Aug 19th 2008, 06:28 PM
I searched a long time before I found the bible teaching church I attend and I thank God for my church and pastor that has taught me so very much. I think God is pleased with many churches - the key is finding the right church because there are GOOD bible teaching churches out there.

uric3
Aug 19th 2008, 06:36 PM
I agree with Ron and Sunset

*Former Church Hopper*

The example I gave earlier of canceling services for the Super Bowl and having a Super Bowl party at the building rather than worship on Sunday actually happened at a church in my community.

You'd be surprised of all the funky things that go on... most without scriptural authority at all... at least some churches have some kind of scripture to back up their practices...

HisLeast
Aug 19th 2008, 06:37 PM
Do some church hopping for a few years, and you will see just how messed up the church in the USA is in the 21st century.

I've had the pleasure of going to church in at least half the states of the union and every province of Canada. I traveled 3 weeks a month for 5 years, and went to church whenever I could. I'd advise looking for the good ones rather than being content with the idea that the western church is dead. It is far from it.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 07:43 PM
There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

But praise God there are men in the US with these ministries - Piper, MacArthur, Begg, Ryken, Ligon Duncan, etc - we need guys like these in the UK!!!!

No I think you're right; I resort to reading Spurgeon and the SA Andrew Murray. Can't think of any current Brits on a par with some of the good teachers I hear from the US. Some of the New Frontiers stuff can be quite good though; they had Mark Driscoll over for their leadership conference last month. He was 'hosted' by a guy called Tope from Jubilee Church Enfield; Tope's a very good preacher.

Friend of I AM
Aug 19th 2008, 07:59 PM
Are our Churches in the 21st century and their services what Peter and Paul had in mind when they started their 1st century Churches in your opinion?

Everybody says you need to go to Church if you are a born from above Christian, but is today's style of Church services even something we should be attending? Most of it is watered down scriptural preaching at best, with a get what you can get from God attitude, instead of a what can I do for God attitude. what's your opinion on the 21st century Church services, and are they something we should be a part of?

Hard to say. There are so many different churches with different types of teaching styles. So long as they teach in accordance with God's Word, I don't have any issue with a particular church and the style in which they preach.

simple
Aug 20th 2008, 04:10 AM
I'm sorry, my '21st century church' must be different from everyone elses '21st century church'. Maybe there's a problem with broadly generalizing the state of the [entire] 'church' - the entire body of believers - as '21st century', ergo, wrong. :rolleyes:

Yes, there is a problem with the church! Guess what? It's always been there, it's nothing new.

So be it. Still if something is not according to Gods ways it needs to be addressed. just because its always been done wrong doesn't mean it has to keep being done wrong. I agree generalizing the church is not right ,just as people are different, some are good and some are bad ,so are the individual churchs .