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Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 05:42 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 05:59 PM
Would it be disrepectfull to say the Jews of the day were wrapped up in tradition and missed the Messiah ?

it could go deeper the pharasee's and sagasees (spelling?) seen the miracles and still rejected Him, So they had seen the power of the messiah and still rejected him...for this i have no reason ? research needed on my part :)

could you give your brief opinin or direct to thread were you gave it please ?

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 06:08 PM
Would it be disrepectfull to say the Jews of the day were wrapped up in tradition and missed the Messiah ? If that's what you believe, then that's what I want to hear. I'm interested in opinions, not sparing my feelings...:lol:


it could go deeper the pharasee's and sagasees (spelling?) seen the miracles and still rejected Him, So they had seen the power of the messiah and still rejected him...for this i have no reason ? research needed on my part :)OK, so you're unsure....


could you give your brief opinin or direct to thread were you gave it please ?

I had a rather lengthy thread o it that I can't find at the moment...which is just as well, because it will derail this one...:lol:

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 06:22 PM
OK, so you're unsure....



I believe God is soverign and nothing happens outside his will

I can say it was the will of God that it happened but i dont think that is what your looking for ?




I had a rather lengthy thread o it that I can't find at the moment...which is just as well, because it will derail this one...:lol:


No worries my Friend it dosn't matter, i'm sure we will get there in due course, i can see you getting into quite a discussion in this topic in no time at all .... :lol:

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 06:24 PM
I believe God is soverign and nothing happens outside his will

I can say it was the will of God that it happened but i dont think that is what your looking for ?
Well, everything is the will of God. But I'm curious as to what the Jews were thinking when they denied Jesus as the messiah.





No worries my Friend it dosn't matter, i'm sure we will get there in due course, i can see you getting into quite a discussion in this topic in no time at all .... :lol::lol:

I think it was posted in a section of this board that no longer exists.

tango
Aug 18th 2008, 06:37 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:

I can't help wondering how much of it was down to expecting a great King to be born to obvious royalty so he grew up while they were proverbially looking the other way. I suppose it's a bit like if, say, you knew that George Bush was coming to visit you'd be looking out for a presidential motorcade and if he then turned up on a rickety bicycle you wouldn't notice him coming.

The Pharisees and Sadducees, being keepers of the Law, had obviously got a nice little earner going on being able to make a profit out of people keeping the Law. They seemed to have some involvement in the money-changing in the Temple because they appeared hostile to Jesus throwing the traders out. Then Jesus came along and shook up their world, trying to show them that the Law was about the spirit rather than the letter. So they had a vested interest in turning people against Jesus.

As to the reason the crowds chose Barabbas over Jesus, I wish I knew :dunno:

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 06:43 PM
[quote=Fenris;1754072]Well, everything is the will of God. But I'm curious as to what the Jews were thinking when they denied Jesus as the messiah.


Ok i'll try harder i didn't think that would satisfy.

I think there a few reasons, the Jews at the time were looking for the messiah described as the King that would bring peace on earth and conquer Israels enemies. But they did not see the suffering servant or priestly messiah in front of thier eyes.

i think this is the main issue

I understand that some Jews say there will be more than one messiah ? being a Christian i believe there is one messiah who will come twice.

First meek and lowley on a donkey and second as a king riding on the clouds.

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 06:55 PM
Jesus quotes Isaiah which points to the reason for their rejection being that God was bringing judgment upon them rather than salvation. The remnant however did hear Him and thousands were saved.

(Mat 13:11-17 KJV) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. {12} For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. {13} Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. {14} And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: {15} For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. {16} But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. {17} For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

(Isa 6:8-12 KJV) Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. {9} And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. {10} Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. {11} Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, {12} And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

David Taylor
Aug 18th 2008, 06:59 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:


Many Thousands upon thousands and Great Multitudes of Jews did believe Jesus.

They were instrumentally used by God in the result of Jesus becoming the most known name on the planet across all nations, tribes, and tongues; and the most influential person throughout history.

Many Jews also didn't, but it was as Jesus predicted it would be.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. "

Here are record of some of the many thousands of Jews who did believe Jesus (prior to the Diaspora and outgoing of the gospel into the Nations).

Acts 2:5, 36-37 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

3000 Jews Believing in Jesus.



Acts 3:25 "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. "

3000 + 5000= 8000 Jews believing in Jesus.



Acts 21:17 "And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe"

3000 + 5000 + (many thousand, at least 3000) = 11,000 Jews believing in Jesus.




Assuming a 'multitude' is at least 3000 (as Acts 2 designates), and a 'Great Multitude' would be 5000 (per the account of the fishes and loaves); we can continue counting the number of Jews who believed in Jesus to be:

4:1, 29-33 "And as they (Apostles) spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. "

11,000 + 3000(this multitude) = 14,000 Jews believing Jesus.




Acts 13:52 "And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost. And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed."

14,000 + 5000(this Great multitude) = 19,000 Jews believing Jesus.



Acts 14:3 "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the multitude of the city (Jerusalem) was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles."

By this point, Half of Jerusalem was believing in Jesus.

Jerusalem's population was in the 50,000 to 80,000 mark in 1st Century A.D....putting the number of Jews that believed on Jesus based on this passage alone, around the 25-50,000 mark.

This is not even considering all of the multitudes of Jews that believed Jesus and followed Him written about in the 4 gospel accounts; prior to the book of Acts. (zero Gentile multitudes had been contacted yet)

How many Jews were mentioned there?

Matthew 4:25 Great Multitudes
Matthew 8:01 Great Multitudes
Matthew 8:18 Great Multitudes
Matthew 9:08 the Multitudes
Matthew 11:07 the Multitudes
Matthew 12:15 Great Multitudes
Matthew 13:02 Great Multitudes
Matthew 14:14 Great Multitude
Matthew 15:30 Great Multitudes
Matthew 17:14 the multitude
Matthew 19:02 Great Multitudes
Matthew 20:29 Great Multitude
Matthew 21:08 Great Multitude

Fenris,
That is a humongous boatload of Jews believing and following Jesus.

Yes, many rejected Him and didn't believe; but so many thousands upon thousands of Jews did believe Jesus....and they were completed in Him, and they found the true long awaited rest for their weary souls.

Why not today Fenris, believe Jesus, and let today be the day of salvation for you, as it once long ago for the Jew Zaccaeus?

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 07:10 PM
I would just add
Daniel 9:25-27 (King James Version)



Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


If it wasn't Yeshua ....who can it be the temple is destroyed ?

I thought you'd get snowed under pretty quick with replies :)

Vhayes
Aug 18th 2008, 07:29 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:
Hi Fenris -

My opinion (and that's ALL it is) is that, like all mankind, they were afraid of change.

Their traditions and their sense of who they were in the world was being challenged.

I guess if I had to choose, I would say willful ignorance coupled with spiritual blindness.

No disrespect intended. As I said, it is only my opinion.
V

Ta-An
Aug 18th 2008, 07:56 PM
I think it was posted in a section of this board that no longer exists.You can still find it,,,, do a search, and look for it in "Controversial " I dunno what I'll be looking for, otherwise I would have found it for you :)

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 08:30 PM
OK, some pretty interesting replies so far.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 08:45 PM
I would just add
Daniel 9:25-27 (King James Version)


Please don't start bringing verses that prove who the messiah is. First of all, if I had to respond to them all this would become my full-time job. :lol: And anyway, it's not the focus of my question. I'm less interested in which verses were misunderstood by the Jews than in why they were misunderstood.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 08:50 PM
Many Thousands upon thousands and Great Multitudes of Jews did believe Jesus.
Possibly.

But there were about 8 million Jews in the world at that time. If 19,000 followed him then 7,981,000 or about 99.8% didn't.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 08:56 PM
I can't help wondering how much of it was down to expecting a great King to be born to obvious royalty so he grew up while they were proverbially looking the other way. I suppose it's a bit like if, say, you knew that George Bush was coming to visit you'd be looking out for a presidential motorcade and if he then turned up on a rickety bicycle you wouldn't notice him coming.

OK, wrong expectations. Interesting point.:hmm:

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 08:57 PM
Jesus quotes Isaiah which points to the reason for their rejection being that God was bringing judgment upon them rather than salvation.
OK, so as above, wrong expectations.

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 09:02 PM
Possibly.

But there were about 8 million Jews in the world at that time. If 19,000 followed him then 7,981,000 or about 99.8% didn't.How many of the 10 tribes of Israel refused to listen to Isaiah when he was sent to warn Israel? Just about all of them wasn't it? Yet God kept Judah for His remnant. How many who were delivered out of Egypt made it to the promised land? None of them - only their children went in. Israel's lessons have been hard for them to hear for sure.

Revelation refers to the firstfruits who followed Jesus as being from the 12 tribes - 12,000 from each, showing a full representation of the remnant who was saved. And the rest were scattered to the nations as before - but in their unbelief. It is not surprising that these are their children who are back in the land today.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 09:02 PM
I guess if I had to choose, I would say willful ignorance coupled with spiritual blindness.

In my experience, most ignorance is willful. :lol:

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 09:04 PM
How many of the 10 tribes of Israel refused to listen to Isaiah when he was sent to warn Israel? Just about all of them wasn't it? Yet God kept Judah for His remnant. How many who were delivered out of Egypt made it to the promised land? None of them - only their children went in. Israel's lessons have been hard for them to hear for sure.
You miss my point.

David Taylor said that many Jews did follow Jesus. I was responding that proportionally speaking, that wasn't true.

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 09:07 PM
Please don't start bringing verses that prove who the messiah is. First of all, if I had to respond to them all this would become my full-time job. :lol: And anyway, it's not the focus of my question. I'm less interested in which verses were misunderstood by the Jews than in why they were misunderstood.

i'm sure it would but what do you expect from a Christian talking to a Jew :lol:

Your asking believers in Yeshua to give you the Jewish perspective on why he was rejected :confused

Surley you have the better understanding on this specific issue :)

Zachariah 12:10 will And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

and Luke 13:35 will be fullfilled when they say " baruch haba b'shem ADONAI"

sorry thats the last ........... i have New Testament torrets

Mograce2U
Aug 18th 2008, 09:11 PM
You miss my point.

David Taylor said that many Jews did follow Jesus. I was responding that proportionally speaking, that wasn't true.What difference does it make the actual number? Which was my point. Israel's disobedient has far outnumbered her faithful.

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 09:14 PM
I wouldn't say the Jews misunderstood the verse at all, the Jews of the day were well verses in the bible and knew scripture inside out going by NT.

I do not think this was a misunderstanding of the bible at all, perhaps the order of things were not as expected, but God ways are not our ways.

Rullion Green
Aug 18th 2008, 09:35 PM
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

Rom 9

all said and done, and to answer your question, i think it was to fulfill scripture and gloryfy the God of Israel throghout the entire earth.

But the Jews will come back to thier messiah in the end and i hope you are counted among them Fenris.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 09:41 PM
What difference does it make the actual number? Which was my point. Israel's disobedient has far outnumbered her faithful.
I've noticed you have a low opinion of Jews.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 09:42 PM
i'm sure it would but what do you expect from a Christian talking to a Jew :lol:

Your asking believers in Yeshua to give you the Jewish perspective on why he was rejected :confused

Surley you have the better understanding on this specific issue :)
I already know what I think. I want to know what you think.

quiet dove
Aug 18th 2008, 10:07 PM
I agree with David in that many many Jews were saved. Jesus brought His message to the Jews, and told His disciples to take it to the Jews first. There is a parable in the NT I am sure you have read about the Canaan woman who ask Jesus to deliver her daughter from a demon and He told her " "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Then she came and worshiped Him and He responded " "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."

Then she said to Him " "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

He said to her ""O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire."

The branches who reject Him will be broken off the cultivated vine, and the wild branches of the wild vine who do believe, will be grafted into the cultivated vine. Only the cultivated branches of the cultivated vine, who believe, will remain in the cultivated vine.

Many Jews believed. It was the leaders or officials, not sure of the right titles, but they rejected Christ. Many of the little people received Him. The leaders did not want to be up surped from their prominent positions or give up their status. basically I would think the same thing thats gets many, Jew and Gentile, in trouble today, pride, not wanting to give up the worldly things they want for the things of God.

daughter
Aug 18th 2008, 10:18 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:
I think it's obvious that many Jews did believe Jesus at the time of Christ... the early church was made up of Jews originally.

I think any heirarchy hates being disrupted. If you believe the gospel accounts (obviously I do) one of the most surprising things occurs early on... these wise guys turn up, saying they have a sign that the King of the Jews (the Messiah, basically) has been born... and they are told by the students of scripture that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is not that far from Jerusalem... so how come these scholars didn't go to see the new born king? You'd have thought they'd be curious at least!

I think that group had become academic and scholarly. That's one thing... they weren't evil, particularly. They were just book nerds.

Later on, I do believe that Jesus was simply very different and radically weird when compared to what people had been expecting. Lots of people DID believe Him, but then lots of people had problems with the Messiah being a carpenter, or speaking with a certain accent, or hanging around with fishermen. (David was a shepherd, and so unthought of for King that his own father overlooked him... but hey. God picks weird people!)

Also, I think a lot of people who reject Him now do so because they haven't yet really seen Him. In other words, it's not Him they're rejecting, but a lie that's been projected.

My husband, when he became Christian after fortynine years, told me that all his life he'd been hating the wrong guy - he said it wasn't God who "f...ed everything up, it wasn't even the devil... it was us." Admittedly, Jews aren't blaming God for all that's wrong in the world, but I think when they look at what "Christians" have done in the name of Jesus, it's understandable that they blame "Jesus" for what was done in His name, when in fact Yeshua had nothing to do with it. It wasn't Him, it was us.

Another huge factor in the fatal schism between Judaism and Christianity was the first century invasion of Jerusalem by Rome. A wedge was driven between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, because Rome's treatment of the Jews at that time rivalled Hilter's for sheer brutality. Rome was systematically and deliberately attempting to wipe Israel, as a nation, people, culture, off the face of the earth. But for God's intervention, they would have succeeded.

Rather than stand by their Jewish brothers and sisters, too many Gentile Christians stood aside and watched Jewish believers (and Jewish non believers come to that) be dragged off into slavery. Of course, not long afterwards, Rome came after the Gentile Christians too, but by then the schism and hatred between the two groups was too deep... the Christians were scared to be seen as Jewish, and the Jews obviously saw them as traitors.

Rome divided to conquer, and the Jews and Christians are only beginning (I hope) to realise that all along we are still brothers, children of Abraham.

danield
Aug 18th 2008, 11:10 PM
Fernis, this is my opinion. People have not changed that much in 2000 years. We have progressed technologically, but the desires of the heart are still well in tact after 2000 years. Take for instance a good business that makes excellent money. People will protect their interest vigorously even today from intruders that would threaten their cash cow. I do not think I need to go into detail showing everyone how people get excited when they are threatened by change financially. And the top money making business, religion, was in jeopardy when Jesus came on the scene. Christ’s death came at the hands of the elite temple leaders of the time manipulating a hand full of people. They saw full well that if they allow Christ to continue preaching and doing wonders in front of thousands, their gravy train would be gone. They did not want to give up the power or the wealth so they killed him plain and simple.

As far as many of the everyday Jewish followers, I think they were being converted slowly. There was obvious great acceptance after they witnessed one of the many miracles. However, when Christ ran up against a brick wall was when he tried to reason with them about their faith with out the assistance of a miracle. Imagine a man coming in your temple trying to change your understanding of scripture. If it deviated ever so slightly with what was written there would be tremendous rejection. Many preachers today have a difficult time coming into congregations preaching the same doctrine but with just ever so slightly different style. Christ went right to the top changing everything that was understood by all Jewish people. He told the leaders that they needed to stop making God a business. Jeurslaem was no longer the central hub for accessing God. You could now pray to him right in your own city with out having to buy an animal for a sacrifice.

What slowed him down from being accepted by the masses? The logistics of proof to the masses. Only so many people could actually witness his incredible power given to him by God. And secondly, great tradition rooted deep in family values towards their understanding of God through the torah.

What killed him? Greed of both power and money by the religious leaders of the day. They saw there grip on the masses slip so they did something about it.

I am tremendously grateful for these rejections because without them I being a gentile probably would have never been able to know God. Their rejection became my greatest gift in life.

God Bless!

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:23 PM
I agree with David in that many many Jews were saved.
OK, I disagree with this point from a historical perspective, but I did ask for your opinion and I am glad you offered it.

danield
Aug 18th 2008, 11:28 PM
Another huge factor in the fatal schism between Judaism and Christianity was the first century invasion of Jerusalem by Rome. A wedge was driven between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, because Rome's treatment of the Jews at that time rivalled Hilter's for sheer brutality. Rome was systematically and deliberately attempting to wipe Israel, as a nation, people, culture, off the face of the earth. But for God's intervention, they would have succeeded.

Rather than stand by their Jewish brothers and sisters, too many Gentile Christians stood aside and watched Jewish believers (and Jewish non believers come to that) be dragged off into slavery. Of course, not long afterwards, Rome came after the Gentile Christians too, but by then the schism and hatred between the two groups was too deep... the Christians were scared to be seen as Jewish, and the Jews obviously saw them as traitors.

Rome divided to conquer, and the Jews and Christians are only beginning (I hope) to realise that all along we are still brothers, children of Abraham.

Daughter, I think this part is not exactly right. Rome encouraged religions because it helped keep in line the masses. The emperors wanted to be worshiped as a God themselves, but they understood how to conquer and assimilate their new found territory. They allowed them to maintain their faiths in any God weather it was Zeus or the God of Abraham. Yes, there was persecution of Christians, but much of this was done as a scapegoat of sorts by evil Caesars. Christianity was a rising small belief which made for an easy target by the likes of Nero and Caligula. But by far and wide Most Caesars encouraged religions to flourish under their umbrella of guidance of course.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:29 PM
I think any heirarchy hates being disrupted. If you believe the gospel accounts (obviously I do) one of the most surprising things occurs early on... these wise guys turn up, saying they have a sign that the King of the Jews (the Messiah, basically) has been born... and they are told by the students of scripture that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is not that far from Jerusalem... so how come these scholars didn't go to see the new born king? You'd have thought they'd be curious at least!

I think that group had become academic and scholarly. That's one thing... they weren't evil, particularly. They were just book nerds.
Ok, interesting perspective. :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:32 PM
Daughter, I think this part is not exactly right. Rome encouraged religions because it helped keep in line the masses.
Not Judaism. It was made illegal by Rome to teach the Talmud or ordain rabbis in the early second century. Rabbi Akiva was martyred by having his flesh torn off him with iron combs for the crime of teaching Torah.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:35 PM
. There was obvious great acceptance after they witnessed one of the many miracles. However, when Christ ran up against a brick wall was when he tried to reason with them about their faith with out the assistance of a miracle. Imagine a man coming in your temple trying to change your understanding of scripture. If it deviated ever so slightly with what was written there would be tremendous rejection.

Ok, so it was a break from traditionally understood teachings that caused the schism.

Jeurslaem was no longer the central hub for accessing God. You could now pray to him right in your own city with out having to buy an animal for a sacrifice.
That actually happened with the destruction of the First temple in 586bc. But that's neither here nor there.

danield
Aug 18th 2008, 11:37 PM
Not Judaism. It was made illegal by Rome to teach the Talmud or ordain rabbis in the early second century. Rabbi Akiva was martyred by having his flesh torn off him with iron combs for the crime of teaching Torah.

You need to understand that this is an isolated case in history, and not by and large the norm of how Rome operated

danield
Aug 18th 2008, 11:40 PM
Ok, so it was a break from traditionally understood teachings that caused the schism.

That actually happened with the destruction of the First temple in 586bc. But that's neither here nor there.

This still was being practiced by the majority of Jews at the time of Christ. It is well documented in several books that I have been reading. I also checked their resources to see how factual it was.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:56 PM
You need to understand that this is an isolated case in history, and not by and large the norm of how Rome operated
Well, the reaction of the nations to Judaism has been pretty unique in general...

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 11:58 PM
This still was being practiced by the majority of Jews at the time of Christ.
A majority of the world's Jews didn't live in Israel at that time...

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 12:02 AM
A majority of the world's Jews didn't live in Israel at that time...

Agreed, but they did frequently travel to the temple to partake in ceremonies. It was a great honor, and was practiced greatly.

daughter
Aug 19th 2008, 12:04 AM
Daughter, I think this part is not exactly right. Rome encouraged religions because it helped keep in line the masses. The emperors wanted to be worshiped as a God themselves, but they understood how to conquer and assimilate their new found territory. They allowed them to maintain their faiths in any God weather it was Zeus or the God of Abraham. Yes, there was persecution of Christians, but much of this was done as a scapegoat of sorts by evil Caesars. Christianity was a rising small belief which made for an easy target by the likes of Nero and Caligula. But by far and wide Most Caesars encouraged religions to flourish under their umbrella of guidance of course.

I disagree with that analysis.

Everything that is unique in the Christian faith, right until this very day, stems from Judaism, as we see it in the Bible. (Law, writing, prophets.) When Jesus said, "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's", He was being an utterly radical voice against the power of the state... and He was being utterly and absolutely Jewish. He acknowleged that "filthy lucer" (as He called "money") derived in His day from Roman power... and He still mercifully acknowledged that some couldn't live outside the system. He offered an escape from that bondage, while at the same time acknowleging how widespread it was.

In the time that the great schism appeared between Judaism and Christianity Nero was emperor. He was a weak man, and he hated both Jews and Christians. By deflecting blame onto both, he divided them from each other.

The Christians, and the Jews, absolutely refused to believe the Roman lie that peace, unity, brotherhood could be found other than through the God of Abraham. The Jews refused to bend the knee to Nero, and the Christians likewise. If only we'd all realised back in the first century that we are brothers!

However, God has His reasons, and we still refuse to bend the knee, other than to the God who formed us in His image. Well, that's what I think was our difference with Rome, anyway!

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 12:07 AM
Well, the reaction of the nations to Judaism has been pretty unique in general...

The reaction from Rome to Judaism was that it tolerated it in order to acquire taxes from happy Jewish men and women. It is well documented.

Mograce2U
Aug 19th 2008, 12:26 AM
I've noticed you have a low opinion of Jews.What does my opinion matter? I was talking about the scripture which answered the question you asked. Apparently it was the answer you didn't like, not my opinion!

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 12:43 AM
Agreed, but they did frequently travel to the temple to partake in ceremonies. It was a great honor, and was practiced greatly.
Yes, many did...

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 12:46 AM
The reaction from Rome to Judaism was that it tolerated it in order to acquire taxes from happy Jewish men and women. It is well documented.
That's not my understanding of the situation. Pilate was quite heavy-handed in his administration of Judea. Perhaps you could provide your source for Rome's tolerant attitude towards Judaism.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 12:47 AM
What does my opinion matter?
It doesn't matter, I was just making an observation.

You didn't dispute it either...

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 12:48 AM
First of all let me say that I am discussing this in the most loving manor I know. Even though I am coming across as brash about my statements, it is only because I have read til my eyes were bleeding on the very subject we are discussing. I have been trying to understand how things were back in the time of Christ and the development of the Seven churches. So let me assure each of you that I am not arguing you for the sake of arguing, it is something that I have had a passion about this past year.


When Jesus said, "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's", He was being an utterly radical voice against the power of the state... and He was being utterly and absolutely Jewish.

Christ was showing the Pharisees, The evil Jewish religious leaders, that were there trying to set him up to be arrested by the Roman authorities, how to understand the difference of what was God’s and what was man’s. The only reason they were there was to manipulate Christ into getting himself killed by the Romans. They hated Christ for taking away their glory, and they wanted to kill him. If Christ would have said one wrong thing at that time, his crucifixion would have been premature. Christ said nothing against Rome which upset those Pharisees so they had to figure out another way to kill Christ. Christ was not being radical against the state. He was being a passive Jew in Rome’s eyes.


The Christians, and the Jews, absolutely refused to believe the Roman lie that peace, unity, brotherhood could be found other than through the God of Abraham. The Jews refused to bend the knee to Nero, and the Christians likewise.

One of the things that I found interesting in my studies of how Rome allowed Christianity and Judaism to exist is that once a year they all must sign a statement of compliance toward to the existing emperor in which in it they acknowledge that he was divine. If they refused they would suffer a monetary fine. Many Christians and Jews would just pay the added fine. This was the only mandated prerequisite that many emperors demanded on Christians and Jews alike for a long time.

We all know of the persecutions of our hero’s, but they did not continually persecute all Christians and Jews throughout the history of Rome. Rome encouraged the worship of many Gods thought most of it’s history. The USA was not the first country that allowed freedom of Religion.

God bless our saints for sure! They are great men and women to endure the trials they faced under any reign.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 12:50 AM
Christ was showing the Pharisees, The evil Jewish religious leaders...
Hello! Where did that come from?

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 12:51 AM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:

I don't think it was a conspiracy of some kind. I don't think the rabbis tried to keep people in the dark. In fact, Jesus told the crowds to listen to what the Pharisees teach, but don't do what they do. And Paul indicates that the Jews had all the scripture they needed and in fact, they were hearing the scripture being read to them each Sabbath. It wasn't for lack of information that some refused to believe.

The simple answer is, he offended people.

One of the most poignant statements Jesus made was, "Blessed is he who does not take offense at me."

We could say some had spiritual blindness. As Isaiah said, their ears were dull and their eyes were dim.

Jesus also gave another reason why some didn't believe. He told the Pharisees that they didn't believe because they were seeking glory from other people. The fact is, Jesus wasn't that appealing to those of the upper crust of society. He didn't look the part and he didn't hob-knob with the mover's and shaker's. Apparently, by contrast, the Pharisees loved to get attention, especially from the rich.

Just wasn't a good fit. ;)

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 12:54 AM
The simple answer is, he offended people.
Tell me a Jewish prophet who didn't! :lol:


Apparently, by contrast, the Pharisees loved to get attention, especially from the rich.

This isn't historically accurate.

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 12:57 AM
Hello! Where did that come from?

They were bad men Fernis. They were there to set Christ up for sure. They wanted his death, and they were manuplating the system to achieve their goals. I assure you that I love Jewish men and women with all my heart, but those guys were bad folkes.

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 01:06 AM
Matthew 22:15-22 15 ∂ Then the Pharisees met together to plot how to trap Jesus into saying something for which he could be arrested. 16 They sent some of their disciples, along with the supporters of Herod, to meet with him. "Teacher," they said, "we know how honest you are. You teach the way of God truthfully. You are impartial and don't play favorites. 17 Now tell us what you think about this: Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" 18 But Jesus knew their evil motives. "You hypocrites!" he said. "Why are you trying to trap me? 19 Here, show me the coin used for the tax." When they handed him a Roman coin, 20 he asked, "Whose picture and title are stamped on it?" 21 "Caesar's," they replied."Well, then," he said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." 22 His reply amazed them, and they went away.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 01:08 AM
They were bad men Fernis. They were there to set Christ up for sure. They wanted his death, and they were manuplating the system to achieve their goals. I assure you that love Jewish men and women with all my heart, but those guys were bad folkes.
I do not believe that was historically true.

But your opinion on the subject does explain your view of the Jewish rejection...:hmm:

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 01:10 AM
This isn't historically accurate.

Opps. My mistake. I shouldn't ever go by memory. :)

Here is the quote I had in mind.

You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe , when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the [one and] only God? John 5:38-44

I shouldn't have generalized the point. Jesus is specifically talking about a group of people who search the scriptures for eternal life, which isn't a bad pursuit. But these particular people were unwilling to make the connection between God's oracles and Jesus because they were looking for glory from other men.

I believe we can also deduce that these men (and perhaps women too) expected the messiah to give them props for the good job they did living in obedience. That is, had Jesus been the messiah, in their opinion, he would have given them glory, i.e approval.

Jesus asks, "how can you believe in me? You seek glory from men rather than glory from God."

It's a real problem. I suffer the same temptation myself.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 01:15 AM
I believe we can also deduce that these men (and perhaps women too) expected the messiah to give them props for the good job they did living in obedience. That is, had Jesus been the messiah, in their opinion, he would have given them glory, i.e approval.

Ok, so the Jews rejected Jesus because he didn't pat the rabbis on the back and tell them, "Good job!". :hmm:

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 01:47 AM
I do not believe that was historically true.
Fernis I believe in the bible. This particular passage came to light to me while I was being persecuted by someone who was using “the system” to really hurt me.

Matthew 22:18 18 But Jesus knew their evil motives. "You hypocrites!" he said. "Why are you trying to trap me?
I understood perfectly how Christ must have felt by being betrayed by those who he came to help. It struck so deep in my heart that I will never leave my Lord and Savior. (not just because of that one verse by many others.) I may stumble, but I will never leave his side!

Historically speaking this could have easily come to pass. It even happens today, maybe not on the scale that Christ experienced, but people use their minds to out wit others to try and get them into horrible Jams. I know you probably have experience something like this, and if not you just have not lived long enough. In my opinion, if someone is trying to do harm to you by manipulating the system, they are no different than if they were actually doing harm to you physically. Take for instance Mike Kifong. He is a classic example of how someone manipulates the system against his fellow man. It happens now and it happened then.

I am as certain it happened to Christ just as it is stated in scripture as I am certain that Mosses parted the Red Sea! And I am certian that both events took place.

BroRog
Aug 19th 2008, 01:48 AM
Ok, so the Jews rejected Jesus because he didn't pat the rabbis on the back and tell them, "Good job!". :hmm:

I think the over-arching reason people didn't believe Jesus is that he offended people. What I said in my last post, (before this one) was a specific case.

I accept Isaiah's word on it. The Jews who didn't believe were dull of hearing etc. But I'm not a prophet and so I can't honestly say who was rejecting Jesus based on being spiritually blind or not.

But as I read the NT, it seems that "offense" is a common theme, especially in John's gospel where the major underlying question seems to be "why should I believe that Jesus is the messiah?"

It's a good question. Even Jesus raises it.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe?

Is that all it takes to believe? For Nathaniel, that small miracle was all it took. But for others . . . ?

Just like I was wrong to generalize about the Pharisees, I would be wrong to generalize about the rabbis or the Jews in general. Some rabbis did believe, and some Jews believed too.

But if the question is "why didn't the Jews believe that Jesus was the messiah", I would also agree with those who mentioned that Jesus didn't fit everyone's expectations.

I'm one of those. Right now, I want Jesus to come back and solve the world's problems, especially mine. :) And so I must always guard my heart and mind against the possibility that he might come back in a way and a time I least expect.

I suspect that first century hopes were very high for the coming one, who would restore Israel and kick out the Romans. Jesus didn't seem to fit that picture. In fact, he didn't fit that picture. He even healed a Roman centurion's servant, and was honest with Pilate about who actually had the greater sin, etc.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 19th 2008, 03:49 AM
Fenris, are you going to give us your opinion on why the Jews rejected Jesus? :D I would actually be sincerely interested to know what you think. I'll also promise you in advance that, while I might answer some of your comments, I'm sure that you've already heard it all, so I will certainly not browbeat you, and regardless, I'll handle it with total respect and acceptance.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 11:05 AM
Fernis I believe in the bible.
I know you do. But where the NT conflicts with other writings of the period, particularly other Jewish writings, I tend to follow them. The NT writers seem to confuse Pharisees with Saducees several times. For example, your statement that "Apparently, by contrast, the Pharisees loved to get attention, especially from the rich." is actually true, but of the Saducees. The Pharisees were actually the party of the common people, and they all had day jobs aside from being rabbis. Most were middle class and some, like Hillel and Shammai, were quite poor.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 11:07 AM
But if the question is "why didn't the Jews believe that Jesus was the messiah", I would also agree with those who mentioned that Jesus didn't fit everyone's expectations. Well, the more I think about it, it's actually true.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 11:10 AM
Fenris, are you going to give us your opinion on why the Jews rejected Jesus? :D I would actually be sincerely interested to know what you think.
I certainly will, but in another thread. It actually has a lot to do with what Brorog said about not meeting expectations.


I'll also promise you in advance that, while I might answer some of your comments, I'm sure that you've already heard it all, so I will certainly not browbeat you, and regardless, I'll handle it with total respect and acceptance.
Of course! I receive a tremendous amount of respect and tolerance here, and for this I am most grateful. You do a great service to your faith by your attitude.

Ta-An
Aug 19th 2008, 11:49 AM
Not Judaism. It was made illegal by Rome to teach the Talmud or ordain rabbis in the early second century. Rabbi Akiva was martyred by having his flesh torn off him with iron combs for the crime of teaching Torah.And this is why there are Haf-Torah readings (Spelling??)

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 11:56 AM
And this is why there are Haf-Torah readings (Spelling??)No, that was earlier, during the Greek domination of Israel. Antiochus of the Chanukah story was responsible for that phenomena.

As I said, the world's reaction to Judaism has been pretty unique.

Ta-An
Aug 19th 2008, 02:04 PM
As I said, the world's reaction to Judaism has been pretty unique.Yes well ............................as if Darkness could destroy light :o

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 04:02 PM
Yes well ............................as if Darkness could destroy light :oI know, but it's been tried...as it says in the Passover Haggadah, “And this same promise has stood by our fathers and ourselves. For not only one man has risen against us, but in every generation there are those who rise up against us to destroy us. But the Holy One, blessed be He, has delivered us out of their hands.”

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 05:06 PM
For example, your statement that "Apparently, by contrast, the Pharisees loved to get attention, especially from the rich." is actually true,
I did not say this. I believe it was the other poster who mentioned attention. I stated that the Pharisees loved power and money. If you do not believe me, then take a look around at some of the ministries we see in our day and time. We find many ministries that are founded not in the love of people, but in the love of money. I know you probably have witnessed some rabbi’s that seem to enjoy the better things in life that is only made possible because of the donations in their ministries. In Christianity, we are to use our wealth to help those who are in need, and only think of our needs as secondary. However, if we look at the homes of some of our Christian teachers they are literally castles. They are adorned with fine jewelry and expensive cloths as they preach. They enjoy the power (influence over others) and money. These Pharisees were faced with someone who was going to change their world, and they wielded much more power than our ministers do today. They were not going to let that happen because they did not want to give up that power so they killed Christ. If you have any writing to dispute this I would like to read it.

I want to add that I am not picking on those Pharisees because they were Jewish, but because they were evil.

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Aug 19th 2008, 05:17 PM
It doesn't matter, I was just making an observation.

You didn't dispute it either..."Low opinion" doesn't give me much to respond to. What exactly is it that I'm being accused of that you would like to have me answer to? Was it because I said disobedience rather than faith is what has marked the Jews in their turbulent history? Which example I gave was the fathers delivered from Egypt all of whom fell in the wilderness, and the 10 tribes being overtaken by Assyria? Was this a wrong assessment on my part? Which you didn't answer other than to say that I have a low opinion of the Jews. As though my statement was somehow a lie...

Addendum:
If I were to come across a man parked in his car on the train tracks and I told him that I knew a train was coming and he continued to calmly eat his lunch; is my warning him of the imminent disaster that is coming upon him mean that I have a "low opinion" of him? No, but it might mean I have a low opinion regarding his choice in the matter because he chooses not to believe me.

Teke
Aug 19th 2008, 05:21 PM
I've given you my opinion on the subject, and now I'd like to hear yours.

Did some conspiracy by the rabbis keep the Jews in the dark? Ignorance of Jewish scripture? Spiritual blindness?

I'll take any and all opinions on the subject.:hmm:

Your opinion is the answer. Religion. :D

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 05:36 PM
I stated that the Pharisees loved power and money. This too does not mesh well with what we know about the Pharisees.


I want to add that I am not picking on those Pharisees because they were Jewish, but because they were evil. I understand. But I don't think they were evil, either. They were, in fact, the forebears of modern rabbinical Judaism.

Now, if you said that the Saducees were evil I wouldn't argue with you too much.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 05:38 PM
"Low opinion" doesn't give me much to respond to.
I didn't expect you to respond.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 05:39 PM
Your opinion is the answer. Religion. :DI don't get it.

Steve M
Aug 19th 2008, 05:50 PM
I find the Gospel of John quite instructive here.

The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place[c] and our nation."

49Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life.


Okay, did you catch that? Some of these people had some higher concerns vis a vis how the Romans would react to this new movement arising. A fear of another disbursement. Caiaphas, who was high priest 'that year' (a commentary, perhaps, on the fact that he was appointed by Rome) says it's better to kill him than to risk the entire nation perishing.

Also, the words that Jesus spoke against the Pharisees was not that did wrong, but that they did right to be seen by men doing right. He accused them of bad motives and hypocrisy. (you want to see leadership get mad at you? Start tossing the H-word around)

Anyway.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 05:57 PM
I find the Gospel of John quite instructive here.
...


Okay, did you catch that? Some of these people had some higher concerns vis a vis how the Romans would react to this new movement arising. A fear of another disbursement. Caiaphas, who was high priest 'that year' (a commentary, perhaps, on the fact that he was appointed by Rome) says it's better to kill him than to risk the entire nation perishing.

Ah. Interesting. So it isn't that they didn't think he was the messiah, but rather that they didn't want him to be the messiah. Which certainly explains the behavior of the Saducees, who were predominantly Roman toadies anyway... but the rejection of the common Jew is less clear. The common Jew, after all, expected the messiah to remove Roman oppression. So obviously some conflict with the Romans was expected.

Steve M
Aug 19th 2008, 05:58 PM
Addendum: not all the Pharisees were against Jesus, either, despite the words he seemingly leveled at all of them.

Luke 13:31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."

That makes it clear that although some of the Pharisees were trying to kill him, some of them were trying to save his life. Later we're told that a group of the Pharisees followed him.

Steve M
Aug 19th 2008, 06:03 PM
Ah. Interesting. So it isn't that they didn't think he was the messiah, but rather that they didn't want him to be the messiah. Which certainly explains the behavior of the Saducees, who were predominantly Roman toadies anyway... but the rejection of the common Jew is less clear. The common Jew, after all, expected the messiah to remove Roman oppression. So obviously some conflict with the Romans was expected.
Well, on that side it appears that he took flak for NOT removing the yoke of oppression--even from his own disciples. The last question they ask him as he ascends into heaven is 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom?' Because even after the resurection, they expected a physical kingdom, where the New Testament is all about a spiritual kingdom.

So, again, not quite meeting expectations....


John 9:16
Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.Also, if you know your history, then you know that every sect hated each other. But we're told explicitly that the Pharisees teamed up with the Herodians against Jesus. That seems a little backwards--except of course that, as you've said, the high priest and the other of Rome's puppets were all Sadducees.

Edit: And why does that stack up? Because the Pharisees alone couldn't do it. Ultimately they would need to team up with their worst enemies to get rid of this man. Herodians and Sadducees.

Teke
Aug 19th 2008, 06:03 PM
I don't get it.

The religion of Judaism doesn't allow for such a thing as the Incarnation.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 06:32 PM
So, again, not quite meeting expectations....
Yep.


Also, if you know your history, then you know that every sect hated each other. But we're told explicitly that the Pharisees teamed up with the Herodians against Jesus. That seems a little backwards--except of course that, as you've said, the high priest and the other of Rome's puppets were all Sadducees.

Edit: And why does that stack up? Because the Pharisees alone couldn't do it. Ultimately they would need to team up with their worst enemies to get rid of this man. Herodians and Sadducees.I consider this unlikely. I know the NT claims that the Pharisees hated Jesus, but I find it less than believable.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 06:33 PM
The religion of Judaism doesn't allow for such a thing as the Incarnation.
What is the incarnation?

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 06:52 PM
I consider this unlikely. I know the NT claims that the Pharisees hated Jesus, but I find it less than believable.
Fernis show me why you find this less than unbelievable. Are you trusting in Letters from the Pharisees of ages past? If so please show me these letters that say that they were kind to Christ! And would you trust such a letter from someone who set someone up to die? It was their business to keep their faith alive, and A whole new religion was emerging out of the rejection of Christ in a big way. Much of the acceptance of Christian in the early age was because of Christian sympathizers. They felt sorry for the way Christ was treated by the Jews so they converted. I just can not imagine you not accepting this as factual. Not only are you a very rational person, but highly intelligent. You know people as well as I do so it should be a no brainier that what I have stated is accurate.

Teke
Aug 19th 2008, 06:58 PM
What is the incarnation?

It is front and center of Christian dogma.
God, who is Spirit, manifest in flesh for us.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 07:03 PM
It is front and center of Christian dogma.
God, who is Spirit, manifest in flesh for us.
All you've done is remove the question by one degree.

Instead of asking why the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, now I have to ask you why the Jews didn't believe in incarnation.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 07:23 PM
Fernis show me why you find this less than unbelievable. Are you trusting in Letters from the Pharisees of ages past?
Actually, I am. It's called the Talmud.


If so please show me these letters that say that they were kind to Christ! It doesn't mention him at all. What it does tell us is what kind of men the Pharisees are. They were honest, hardworking, God-fearing men. It draws a completely different picture from the NT.


And would you trust such a letter from someone who set someone up to die?
It's not clear that this is what happened.


It was their business to keep their faith alive, and A whole new religion was emerging out of the rejection of Christ in a big way.Interesting. So you consider Judaism 'a new religion' and Christianity the original religion? :hmm:


Much of the acceptance of Christian in the early age was because of Christian sympathizers. They felt sorry for the way Christ was treated by the Jews so they converted.I would have thought they converted because they believed that Jesus died for their sins...feeling sorry for someone is fine but it's no reason to change religions.


I just can not imagine you not accepting this as factual. Not only are you a very rational person, but highly intelligent. You know people as well as I do so it should be a no brainier that what I have stated is accurate.
Your kind words aside, I simply use different sources of information.

Teke
Aug 19th 2008, 07:25 PM
All you've done is remove the question by one degree.

Instead of asking why the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, now I have to ask you why the Jews didn't believe in incarnation.

In the past you've stated according to Judaism this wouldn't be necessary.
Judaism teaches another way God accomplishes His will by/through mankind. And although I agree in part with that, I believe it has to also have the additional heavenly part connected in a real manner.

IOW you see the culmination in Israel and Messiah in a different literal way than Christians do. Christians see the culmination of Israel in the Messiah. The person of Jesus Christ by the Incarnation (the heavenly temple having come to earth already).

The culmination of Israel and all they were and did, is in the Messiah. Nothing more to add to that.

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 07:31 PM
In the past you've stated according to Judaism this wouldn't be necessary.OK, so then Jesus came along and stated a new doctrine unknown in Judaism. I guess that's why the Jews didn't follow him, according to your thinking...

danield
Aug 19th 2008, 08:27 PM
Actually, I am. It's called the Talmud.
I will try and read up on these letters so I can understand where you are coming from.


It doesn't mention him at all. What it does tell us is what kind of men the Pharisees are. They were honest, hardworking, God-fearing men. It draws a completely different picture from the NT.
If you read only the letters written by cardinals about every pope in the Catholic Church, you too would think that they were all kind men. However we know that some were really wolves in sheepís clothing. Is it possible that these Pharisees were not honest, God-fearing men. Of course it is. Just as I know that some of my Christian leaders of ages past were actually bad men. Many Popes killed many Protestants, and many Protestants burned countless buildings of Catholic owned property in retaliation to their conflict. To say that Judaism top scribes in Christís age are isolated from any deceit is not wise at all. If you choose to not believe that Christ was the Son of God that is your decision, but to doubt that he was not turned over to be hung on the cross by the Pharisees of the time is not rational at all.
As I stated earlier, many pagans and Jews were converted because they were Christian sympathizer. If there was no wrong doing on behalf of the Pharisees then there would not be any sympathizing being done. Also note who actually held the power during that time. Did the low level scribes have the authority to meet with Pilate and bring a capital case in front of him so easily? No of course not. If that happened he probably would have hung them all from a cross. Christ death came at the hands of deceit by evil Pharisees. Men who wanted to kill Christ to stop the water shed of converts from following him instead of what they were preaching. People today have killed for much less. I think you are holding on to something that you should accept. It may be that this is your stumbling block to Christianity. The teaching of the Jewish leaders had to cover Christís very existence up so they could continue as business as usual. But what they did not count on was how the Holy Spirit followed the twelve disciples though to the end. And their hard work, accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit, finished what was started when Christís seed was planted in the ground.


It's not clear that this is what happened.
I think it is crystal clear!


Interesting. So you consider Judaism 'a new religion' and Christianity the original religion?
I am sorry that my wording was not clear. Christianity emerged through Judaism. It was the Pharasees job to maintain order in their temple.

I would have thought they converted because they believed that Jesus died for their sins...feeling sorry for someone is fine but it's no reason to change religions.
I am sure the promise of salvation was the mainstay of their conversion, but it is documented that people did not believe the Jewish Rabbiís when they saw the mistreatment of Christ, and many converted to Christianity. Entire books have been written about the development of Christianity though not only the Diaspora Jew but paganís alike. They all saw what had happened, and the many miracles preformed by the disciples. If it did not happen as the bible said it did, how could Christianity have ever developed through such treacherous times? It would have been an almost impossible task given their meager resources. They did not have TBN, or the internet, but they had to share the Gospel by word of mouth, and I am in awe of their accomplishment. That alone has got to be one of the most forgotten testimonies of the Holy Spirit, the development of Christís seed!
God Bless!

Fenris
Aug 19th 2008, 08:40 PM
I will try and read up on these letters so I can understand where you are coming from.
The Talmud isn't letters. It's dozens of volumes on Jewish law, tradition, ethics, and morality.


If you read only the letters written by cardinals about every pope in the Catholic Church, you too would think that they were all kind men. However we know that some were really wolves in sheepís clothing. Is it possible that these Pharisees were not honest, God-fearing men. Of course it is. Just as I know that some of my Christian leaders of ages past were actually bad men. Many Popes killed many Protestants, and many Protestants burned countless buildings of Catholic owned property in retaliation to their conflict. To say that Judaism top scribes in Christís age are isolated from any deceit is not wise at all. If you choose to not believe that Christ was the Son of God that is your decision, but to doubt that he was not turned over to be hung on the cross by the Pharisees of the time is not rational at all. All true. And yet, while we have historical writers to tell us the truth about the Popes and such, the only writers who spoke ill of the Pharisees are the writers of the Gospels. And the faults they accused them of are the faults of the Saducees.


As I stated earlier, many pagans and Jews were converted because they were Christian sympathizer. If there was no wrong doing on behalf of the Pharisees then there would not be any sympathizing being done.
As I demonstrated, some 99.7% of the world's Jews did not convert at the time. I do not find this to be a terribly convincing point.


Also note who actually held the power during that time. Did the low level scribes have the authority to meet with Pilate and bring a capital case in front of him so easily? No of course not. If that happened he probably would have hung them all from a cross. Christ death came at the hands of deceit by evil Pharisees.
The Pharisees did not hold power with Pilate. The Saducees did.



Men who wanted to kill Christ to stop the water shed of converts from following him instead of what they were preaching. People today have killed for much less. I think you are holding on to something that you should accept. It may be that this is your stumbling block to Christianity. There are many issues I have with Christianity. But that is really a different discussion. We're not talking about my views, we're trying to figure out what first century Jews were thinking.


The teaching of the Jewish leaders had to cover Christís very existence up so they could continue as business as usual. But what they did not count on was how the Holy Spirit followed the twelve disciples though to the end. And their hard work, accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit, finished what was started when Christís seed was planted in the ground.Is possible. I have stated many times that God willed this new religion to exist and one of my purposes here is to figure out why.



I think it is crystal clear!Yes, you think it is crystal clear. And I don't.



I am sorry that my wording was not clear. Christianity emerged through Judaism. It was the Pharasees job to maintain order in their temple. The Pharisees had little control over the Temple. You're thinking of the Saducees.


I am sure the promise of salvation was the mainstay of their conversion, but it is documented that people did not believe the Jewish Rabbiís when they saw the mistreatment of Christ, and many converted to Christianity. Documented...where? In the NT?


Entire books have been written about the development of Christianity though not only the Diaspora Jew but paganís alike. They all saw what had happened, and the many miracles preformed by the disciples. If it did not happen as the bible said it did, how could Christianity have ever developed through such treacherous times? I have several theories on the subject, but I'd rather not go into them.


It would have been an almost impossible task given their meager resources. They did not have TBN, or the internet, but they had to share the Gospel by word of mouth, and I am in awe of their accomplishment. That alone has got to be one of the most forgotten testimonies of the Holy Spirit, the development of Christís seed!
God Bless!
Possibly. Other reasons are also possible.

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 12:38 AM
OK, so I think most of can agree that Jesus did not meet the expectations of the messiah by the Jewish community. How did something like this happen?

(Oh, and we already know 'moregrace2u's answer: Because the Jews never listen to God.)

Mograce2U
Aug 20th 2008, 02:16 AM
OK, so I think most of can agree that Jesus did not meet the expectations of the messiah by the Jewish community. How did something like this happen?

(Oh, and we already know 'moregrace2u's answer: Because the Jews never listen to God.)Hah - I can tell you don't know me that well yet!

If you remember back a few pages ago, I showed Jesus quoting Isaiah. What I was trying to show you was that the leadership was corrupt and it was they whose hearts would be hardened in their sin so that they would not believe (like Pharoah). That is pretty much standard operating procedure when God is about to bring judgment. The 10 tribes didn't listen to Isaiah either when Assyria was sent against them. And Judah also struggled with Jeremiah's warnings to them to submit to the Babylon capitivity where they would be kept safe for the 70 yrs while the land rested.

In Ezek 9 we see that angels were sent to first mark the people who mourned over Jerusalem. But then those angels were sent - beginning at the sanctuary, to bring the wrath of God upon those men, while the remnant were spared. And this judgment upon Jerusalem sets the type for 70 AD.

And this is the same pattern we see working in the 1st century as Jesus and then the apostles gathered the remnant into the new covenant, while the leaders of the people - and those who followed them, met with judgment.

There also seems to be a progression at work as Israel's history developed. Those who were delivered from Egypt but fell to unbelief, did die in the wilderness but no judgment fell upon them otherwise. By the time we get to the Babylon Capitivity though, we see the 10 tribes judged much more harshly that Judah, who though they had committed the same sins were also said to have been faithful with the saints. 70 AD was also much worse for those who remained in the city. But the remnant who did believe in Jesus - and listened to Him, fled the city and were spared.

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 11:10 AM
70 AD was also much worse for those who remained in the city. But the remnant who did believe in Jesus - and listened to Him, fled the city and were spared.
Actually, the Jerusalem church was utterly destroyed. Christianity then grew from the non-Jerusalem church, i.e. Paul and his followers.

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 11:11 AM
Anyway, back to the topic: How and when did Judaism go astray, making mass recognition of Jesus as the Messiah impossible?

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 11:51 AM
Just popping in quickly.... to say.... I found a book today, and started reading it whilst waiting at the Receiver of Revenue's offices at yet another 3 H fruitless visit :B but in any case,,,it is called : Jesus: King of the Jews.... and in there are mentioned so many things that I never knew neither grasped because of my lack of understanding /gripping the background and language pictures of the time set in which the whole 'story' plays off in..... I'll be back with LOTS of amo / questions Fenris :D

Teke
Aug 20th 2008, 12:37 PM
OK, so then Jesus came along and stated a new doctrine unknown in Judaism. I guess that's why the Jews didn't follow him, according to your thinking...

You already know I don't believe He started any new doctrines.
In ref. to what you stated about Jewish expectations, let me ask you, are Jewish expectations "doctrines"?

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 12:41 PM
You already know I don't believe He started any new doctrines.If he didn't start any new doctrines, like the idea of incarnation, then why didn't Jews follow him? Why didn't Jews say, "Oh, he's God incarnate, just like we've been waiting for"?



In ref. to what you stated about Jewish expectations, let me ask you, are Jewish expectations "doctrines"?
No, the nature of God is a doctrine. One that Jews and Christians disagree on.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 01:04 PM
You already know I don't believe He started any new doctrines.
His message was the same as that of John the Baptiser.... "Repent for the Kingdom of G_d is at hand!"

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 01:09 PM
His message was the same as that of John the Baptiser.... "Repent for the Kingdom of G_d is at hand!"
If that was his entire message Jews would have had no theological issues with him. There would also be no such thing as Christians.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 01:15 PM
If that was his entire message Jews would have had no theological issues with him. There would also be no such thing as Christians.His anointing came when He was baptized and not oiled in by John, He became spirit filled from above .

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 01:22 PM
If that was his entire message Jews would have had no theological issues with him. There would also be no such thing as Christians.What did He change?? :hmm: .

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 01:30 PM
What did He change?? :hmm: .
You're kidding, right?

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 01:34 PM
You're kidding, right?
No.... do I to re-read the whole thread? :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 01:37 PM
No.... do I to re-read the whole thread? :hmm:
What did Jesus change? Oh, I don't know... he 'fulfilled' and therefore banished the Law, he made all future sacrifices irrelevant, he created a new religion where faith superseded action...

At least, that's how the gospels carry it down.

Teke
Aug 20th 2008, 01:44 PM
If he didn't start any new doctrines, like the idea of incarnation, then why didn't Jews follow him? Why didn't Jews say, "Oh, he's God incarnate, just like we've been waiting for"?


No, the nature of God is a doctrine. One that Jews and Christians disagree on.

Actually the Trinity dogma of Christianity came about to protect the "nature of God" which is unknowable (which the Jews do agree with). Yet it can't deny the Incarnation and it's implications which it seeks to explain.

That is the basis of all Christian thought.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 01:50 PM
What did Jesus change? Oh, I don't know... he 'fulfilled' and therefore banished the Law, he made all future sacrifices irrelevant, he created a new religion where faith superseded action...

At least, that's how the gospels carry it down.He did not banish the Law... people who says he did, does not know their Scripture.... Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He delights in spiritual sacrifices, doing good and giving to others, God is well-pleased with such offerings. .... the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name.....

The sacrifice for sin is the only one that no longer is required..... OK, that one I can see your point..

Faith now produces action... or the fruit of our faith is action... YET I do not have to work for my salvation....:pp

Teke
Aug 20th 2008, 01:50 PM
What did Jesus change? Oh, I don't know... he 'fulfilled' and therefore banished the Law, he made all future sacrifices irrelevant, he created a new religion where faith superseded action...

At least, that's how the gospels carry it down.

You must mean that is how someone represented it to you. If He "banished the law" then why do we have what we call "canon" (which means guide or law) of scripture.

He never stopped sacrifice but made sacrifice eternal as heaven.

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 01:53 PM
You must mean that is how someone represented it to you. If He "banished the law" then why do we have what we call "canon" (which means guide or law) of scripture.
Do Christians follow the same laws as pre-Christian Jews did? Obviously not. Jesus banished the OT biblical law.

I can't believe I have to point this out on a forum full of religious Christians.

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 01:58 PM
He did not banish the Law... people who says he did, does not know their Scripture.... Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


That's semantics. Regardless of how you explain it, the law no longer had to be followed. And that is a major change.




Faith now produces action... or the fruit of our faith is action... YET I do not have to work for my salvation....:pp
That too is a major change.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 02:04 PM
[/i]That's semantics. Call it what you want.....
A lot of the Law is contained in the NT.... about the whole law :idea: ...

Regardless of how you explain it, the law no longer had to be followed. And that is a major change. Which part of the not complying to the Levitical law is upsetting you the most??


That too is a major change.
Does the Torah / Tanach teach salvation by works?? :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 02:45 PM
Call it what you want.....
A lot of the Law is contained in the NT.... about the whole law :idea: ... Which part of the not complying to the Levitical law is upsetting you the most??The law is contained in the NT? C'mon, this point doesn't even bear answering.



Does the Torah / Tanach teach salvation by works?? :hmm:
It doesn't teach salvation at all.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 05:09 PM
The law is contained in the NT? C'mon, this point doesn't even bear answering. Go look at this link..... the law in the NT.
http://shalach.org/BibleSearch/NTCommandments.htm



It doesn't teach salvation at all. So what does it mean when an animal is sacrificed for sins.... why??:hmm:

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 05:43 PM
As atonement for sin. Just like charity, good deeds, or Yom Kippur.

Ta-An
Aug 20th 2008, 07:19 PM
Does atonement for sin not equal salvation :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 09:23 PM
You can say that if you like, but the Tanach doesn't.

It actually doesn't mention 'salvation' in the Christian sense at all.

Teke
Aug 20th 2008, 10:00 PM
Do Christians follow the same laws as pre-Christian Jews did? Obviously not. Jesus banished the OT biblical law.



Christians don't have to follow Jewish laws, because their not Jewish. They did and do follow the traditional pattern concerning worship. For instance Christian priests robes follow patterns from scripture in the OT. Traditionally in eastern churches there is the seven candle stand on the altar, and what was the shewbread in the OT would be comparable to the Christian eucharistic bread, which also re-presents the eternal sacrifice which God provided. Wine, oil, incense and water are involved as well, traditional elements. Canon is read, psalms are read, prayers made....

Christians celebrate feast days and have regular fast days and fasts for feast days. They are just not Jewish holy days and feasts, and by that I mean that which was exclusively Israels, their cultural aspect.

Would you say that's fair. Keeping traditional aspects but tailoring them to the different cultures. The church thought this better than seeming to try to assume the identity of Israel.

pinky
Aug 20th 2008, 10:03 PM
Why didn't the Jews believe in Jesus?



Superceeding the Word with oral traditions....

Mar 7:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar007.html#13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.




The babylonian talmudic oral traditions that make God's Written Word of none effect.





Also............ pride and haughtiness in the flesh.


Mat 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat003.html#9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:09 AM
Christians don't have to follow Jewish laws, because their not Jewish.
What about Jews who believe in Jesus? Do they have to follow OT law?

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:12 AM
Superceeding the Word with oral traditions....

Mar 7:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar007.html#13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.




The babylonian talmudic oral traditions that make God's Written Word of none effect.Eh. I never saw anything wrong with Jewish customs.






Also............ pride and haughtiness in the flesh.


Mat 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat003.html#9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Having Abraham as an ancestor is indeed a merit, as evinced by Deuteronomy chapter 7: 7 The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people--for ye were the fewest of all peoples-- 8 but because the LORD loved you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, He is God; the faithful God, who keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations ...

Which is of course no protection from punishment when we deserve it.

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2008, 12:12 AM
What about Jews who believe in Jesus? Do they have to follow OT law?

No, the NT teaches withing the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, but all are part of one Body.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:13 AM
No, the NT teaches withing the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, but all are part of one Body.
So obviously Jesus coming did change the Law. Thank you.

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2008, 12:22 AM
So obviously Jesus coming did change the Law. Thank you.

I have told you my view on that but considering all the conversations I'll state again, He didn't change it, but fulfilled it. In other word, now, instead of striving to keep all the Laws, the believer through Christ strives to walk in the Spirit, the NT teaches that all believers are indwelt with the Spirit and "should" be obedient, and obedient from the heart, not just on the outside.

Like we can eat pork, but we should still behave in such a way that we end up keeping the 10 commandments. Morally, we should be still striving to keep the Law, if that makes sense, but not striving to keep it in order to obtain righteousness, but to be obedient to the One we claim to follow. So the Law is still as it always was, has not changed and pleasing God is still the same to, be obedient, believe Him. And what the Christian believes that God told us, therefore we should believe Him that Christ died for our sins, believing Him is obedience. We are then covered by Christ righteousness and should behave as such. It is not a license to sin, but all the more reason to walk obediently.

The Law still exist, but my righteousness is in Christ. With the indwelt Spirit I should know right from wrong, like we discussed in another thread, the Law is written on my heart. Morally speaking of the Law, I should know right and wrong.

The Law for was teaching right and wrong and God's will, and obviously things like right and wrong have not changed and neither has God and neither has the Law, only how we please God has been changed - Mercy and Grace

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:46 AM
I have told you my view on that but considering all the conversations I'll state again, He didn't change it, but fulfilled it.
You're arguing semantics here.

The point is, you believe that people were obligated to do certain things before Jesus came and not obligated after. That means his coming changed things.

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2008, 01:52 AM
You're arguing semantics here.

The point is, you believe that people were obligated to do certain things before Jesus came and not obligated after. That means his coming changed things.

God's standard has not changed, the standard of behavior for believers in Christ is the same as what the Law required, morally speaking. They are known by their fruit, good works, keeping His commandments, being obedient. The difference is not in God or His standard of righteousness, but in the means to please Him and to be found righteous, which is no longer a list of does and don't that must be taught, but does and don't written on the heart of the believer in Christ. God has always wanted men to behave in a godly manner, to imitate and do right, He wanted hearts. When Israel simply killed bulls but in their heart was not love, the sacrifice was meaningless to God. Men are sinners, separated from a righteous God by sin, but, through Christ the Law, for those who believe, is fulfilled, but we are no less expected to live according the moral right and wrong set forth by God which has not changed.

So His coming changed that we have a High Priest and through His blood poured out upon the alter, we obtain Mercy and Grace, because on our own, no matter how much money we give away or how much good we do, or how many bulls/sheep we sacrifice, we cannot erase that we are sinners.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:15 PM
God's standard has not changed, the standard of behavior for believers in Christ is the same as what the Law required, morally speaking.
But it's not what the law required, behaviorally speaking.

You want to have it both ways: Jesus came and 'fulfilled the law' so that no one would have to do it anymore; and, at the same time, people's obligations remained the same. Those are two mutually exclusive statements.


They are known by their fruit, good works, keeping His commandments, being obedient.If people have to keep commandments, what was the point of Jesus fulfilling the law?


The difference is not in God or His standard of righteousness, but in the means to please Him and to be found righteous, which is no longer a list of does and don't that must be taught, but does and don't written on the heart of the believer in Christ...



So His coming changed that we have a High Priest and through His blood poured out upon the alter, we obtain Mercy and Grace, because on our own, no matter how much money we give away or how much good we do, or how many bulls/sheep we sacrifice, we cannot erase that we are sinners.

See, so now you're saying that something did change.

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 01:03 PM
What about Jews who believe in Jesus? Do they have to follow OT law?

They'd be directed to in one form (Jewish) or another (Christian church).

Toymom
Aug 21st 2008, 01:22 PM
You're arguing semantics here.

The point is, you believe that people were obligated to do certain things before Jesus came and not obligated after. That means his coming changed things.
Yes, Jesus's coming certainly did change things!
Before being incarnated as a man and bringing humanity into divinity and going through an all inclusive death and resurrection and becoming the Life-giving Spirit who could dwell in us, God was outside of man.
He was God and we were sinful humans and He could not dwell within us.
He did sometimes speak to and speak through some men - and even spoke through a donkey once, but He did not dwell within any of them on a permanant basis.
Now, However, He can and does dwell within redeemed and regenerated people.
His Spirit can live inside of our human spirits.
When we live by His life instead of by ours we are spontaneously fulfilling the intent of the law.

This was God's desire from the beginning.

Numbers 11:29 But Moses said to him, Are you jealous for my sake? Oh that all Jehovah's people were prophets, that Jehovah would put His Spirit upon them!

And it was fulfilled in Christ.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people to Me.
11 And they shall by no means each teach his fellow citizen and each his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all will know Me from the little one to the great one among them.
12 For I will be propitious to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins I shall by no means remember anymore.''

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah: I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.


It is according to the law of life that we are a people to God and that He is God to us. God's relationship with us today is based fully on the law of life, not on laws, but on Himself as the living law within us, so that today we do not need to walk according to the knowledge of the law of letters but should walk according to the consciousness of the law of life.


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 01:53 PM
Yes, Jesus's coming certainly did change things!Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 01:55 PM
They'd be directed to in one form (Jewish) or another (Christian church).

Before you said
Christians don't have to follow Jewish laws, because their not Jewish.

Now you're saying that the Law does not apply to Jews anymore.

Which one is it?

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 02:16 PM
Before you said

Now you're saying that the Law does not apply to Jews anymore.

Which one is it?
I didn't say the law doesn't apply to one and not the other.
The law applies either way Jewish or Christian.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 02:17 PM
I didn't say the law doesn't apply to one and not the other.
The law applies either way Jewish or Christian.
Then why did you say Christians don't have to follow the law because they're not Jewish?

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 02:41 PM
Then why did you say Christians don't have to follow the law because they're not Jewish?

Christians can't follow all the law, such as holy days which are exclusive to Israel, simply because they are not biological descendent's of Israel. That would be hypocrisy.

While I could learn all there is to learn about Jews, it wouldn't make me Jewish.
Like Jeremiah says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?" The answer is no, but they can learn to do good and not evil.

As Jeremiah says after the above verse (13:26), "I will uncover your backside to your face". Physically speaking this is impossible, so we take it as spiritual warning. When our backside is uncovered to our face we become aware that our sins are seen by all.
This is what God has done. In a manner of speaking, this is what people experience when God reveals His Son Jesus Christ to them.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 02:47 PM
So Christians don't have to follow the law but Jews do? Or is it optional for Jews?

Toymom
Aug 21st 2008, 03:08 PM
So Christians don't have to follow the law but Jews do? Or is it optional for Jews?
I think that if someone is Jewish and they want to do it right, they should follow the entire law. Not like the Reform Judaism that I grew up in that discarded most of it.
However, if a Jew is born again,like any born again Christian, then we are no longer under the law, but should follow Christ as the living law within us. That means that in everything we do, we should turn first to the Lord and follow His leading. Our life should be one of no longer I, but Christ who lives in me.

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 04:24 PM
So Christians don't have to follow the law but Jews do? Or is it optional for Jews?

Anyone who knows what to do (God's will) and doesn't do it, intentionally sins (this is comparable to what Jesus said in Luke 12:47, 48).

According to Leviticus and Numbers there is only one law. Numbers 15 is an example Christians use in their Eucharist. Because there are always going to be sins/transgressions that are outside the congregation's knowing. But God makes provision for that as well, through His congregation and their acts in worship.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 04:36 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Sigh. Sometimes I feel like we aren't even speaking the same language here.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 05:02 PM
You can say that if you like, but the Tanach doesn't.

It actually doesn't mention 'salvation' in the Christian sense at all.Do you ascribe that to change in time.... language usage over time :hmm:

Mograce2U
Aug 21st 2008, 05:05 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Sigh. Sometimes I feel like we aren't even speaking the same language here.I think that may be because the hope that Abraham was given is not the hope of Judaism today. If we had the same hope you would probably hear us better.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 05:36 PM
Having Abraham as an ancestor is indeed a merit,It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness... so are we as Christians by faith offspring of Abraham :)

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 06:07 PM
Do you ascribe that to change in time.... language usage over time :hmm:
No, I ascribe that to the fact that the Torah is rooted in the here-and-now. Take care of the poor now. Love the stranger now. Do God's will now.

What lies after this life is in God's hands.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 06:08 PM
I think that may be because the hope that Abraham was given is not the hope of Judaism today. If we had the same hope you would probably hear us better.I didn't mean all of you. I was talking about Teke.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 06:12 PM
It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness... so are we as Christians by faith offspring of Abraham :)
Everyone wants to be a Jew and no one wants to be Jewish...

Anyway, the bible also says

ďAnd in your seed all the nations of earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.Ē (Genesis 22:18)



ďAnd I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.Ē (Genesis 26:4-5)

Which certainly implies that God found more righteousness in Abraham than mere faith. Since we Jews keep God's commandments, statutes, and laws, AND we are descended from Abraham, I believe we alone can claim to be Abraham's offspring.

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2008, 06:30 PM
No, I ascribe that to the fact that the Torah is rooted in the here-and-now. Take care of the poor now. Love the stranger now. Do God's will now.

What lies after this life is in God's hands.


Christianity is to do those things now, in this life. It is to give up yourself and give to others without your priority being for yourself in this life. Die to self, live for Him, now. In other words, no conflict with the do those things now of the Torah.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 06:40 PM
Christianity is to do those things now, in this life. It is to give up yourself and give to others without your priority being for yourself in this life. Die to self, live for Him, now. In other words, no conflict with the do those things now of the Torah.
Hmm. Well, it seems the afterlife is very prominent in Christianity. There is constant reminder that without Jesus's sacrifice it is impossible to be good/do good, and thus one will be damned to hell forever. Granted, Christians are exhorted to follow Jesus's example of good works. But we have no corresponding emphasis on the afterlife in Judaism. The Tanach mentions the concept only very briefly, in passing, and it is never listed as a reward for one's good deeds nor a punishment for bad ones.

I've heard it said that Judaism is outward looking and Christianity is inward looking. On the basis of this point I feel that it is pretty accurate.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 07:12 PM
Everyone wants to be a Jew and no one wants to be Jewish...


Abraham was a Jew?? :hmm:

quiet dove
Aug 21st 2008, 07:13 PM
Hmm. Well, it seems the afterlife is very prominent in Christianity. There is constant reminder that without Jesus's sacrifice it is impossible to be good/do good, and thus one will be damned to hell forever. Granted, Christians are exhorted to follow Jesus's example of good works. But we have no corresponding emphasis on the afterlife in Judaism. The Tanach mentions the concept only very briefly, in passing, and it is never listed as a reward for one's good deeds nor a punishment for bad ones.

I've heard it said that Judaism is outward looking and Christianity is inward looking. On the basis of this point I feel that it is pretty accurate.

-One is not damned to hell for ever for not doing good, but for rejecting God's gift of atonement. Afterlife is not a reward for good works.
-entry to heaven, and rewards in heaven once one gets there are two different things. Once truly in Christ, salvation is promised and has nothing to do with rewards, rewards can be lost due to poor works.
-Salvation is one issue - works are another. Salvation is not a reward but a gift. Rewards are just that, rewards for faithful service. Christians do not put as much emphasis on rewards as you think, the emphasis is on Salvation. Works are a reflection/outwardly visible of what is on the inward man. I mean I can claim to love Christ but if my works reflect greed and a snotty attitude, my works then reflect what is truly in my heart, greed and pride, not Christ.

Christianity is inward looking, a Christian should look inward, at themselves, in judgment of themselves. You are misapplying the focus and purpose of "inward". If one looks inward in self judgment then the outward look is more according to God's will.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 07:21 PM
Abraham was a Jew?? :hmm:
The very first one. :)

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 07:25 PM
-One is not damned to hell for ever for not doing good, but for rejecting God's gift of atonement. Afterlife is not a reward for good works.

-entry to heaven, and rewards in heaven once one gets there are two different things. Once truly in Christ, salvation is promised and has nothing
to do with rewards, rewards can be lost due to poor works.
-Salvation is one issue - works are another. Salvation is not a reward but a gift. Rewards are just that, rewards for faithful service. Christians do not put as much emphasis on rewards as you think, the emphasis is on Salvation. Works are a reflection/outwardly visible of what is on the inward man. I mean I can claim to love Christ but if my works reflect greed and a snotty attitude, my works then reflect what is truly in my heart, greed and pride, not Christ.None of which is featured in the OT or Judaism.


Christianity is inward looking, a Christian should look inward, at themselves, in judgment of themselves. You are misapplying the focus and purpose of "inward". If one looks inward in self judgment then the outward look is more according to God's will.
And Judaism says it matters little what goes on inside. It matters a lot what goes on outside. You do God's will and by repeated acts of goodness you become a good person. The habit becomes the person. And I actually like this idea very much.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 07:32 PM
The very first one. :)But then what about the Ismaelites?? they also stem from Abraham... :hmm: why are they not called Jews....

What does the word :Jew mean??

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 07:54 PM
But then what about the Ismaelites?? they also stem from Abraham... :hmm: why are they not called Jews....They were also given blessings, but Abraham's seed was carried down through Isaac. See Genesis 21:12 ...in Isaac shall seed be called to thee...

Anyway, if you want the legalistic reason, it's very simple: Ishmael's mother was not a Jew, and Judaism is passed down through the mother.


What does the word :Jew mean??
The word 'Jew' originally meant 'from the tribe of Judah'. The word appears in the Tanach only twice: Once in Esther 2:5 ("There was a certain Jew in Shushan the castle, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite"), where it is obviously being used to describe a man who is not from the tribe of Judah; and once in Zechariah 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"


It's probably an anachronism to refer to Abraham in that way I suppose. :hmm:

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 08:19 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Sigh. Sometimes I feel like we aren't even speaking the same language here.

The answer is yes, Christians are to obey the law as well. The reason I wrote it the way I did, is because whether your a Christian or Jew, if you don't know the law then you can't very well "follow" or abide by something you don't know. We could only be held accountable for what we do know. ;)

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 08:21 PM
The answer is yes, Christians are to obey the law as well. The reason I wrote it the way I did, is because whether your a Christian or Jew, if you don't know the law then you can't very well "follow" or abide by something you don't know. We could only be held accountable for what we do know. ;)
So do Christians keep kosher and the sabbath and the various holidays etc etc?

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 08:24 PM
So do Christians keep kosher and the sabbath and the various holidays etc etc?

Yes they do according to Christian tradition.
I thought I already explained that, just not in detail.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 08:46 PM
Anyway, if you want the legalistic reason, it's very simple: Ishmael's mother was not a Jew, and Judaism is passed down through the mother.

Now if I really wanna be legalistic then I can say : If Abraham was the first Jew,,and the lineage of being a Jew gets passed down by a female... then it is impossible for there to be more Jews after Abraham.... for he was male, last time I heard...

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:01 PM
Yes they do according to Christian tradition.
I thought I already explained that, just not in detail.
Really? It doesn't seem to match anything in the five books of Moses....

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:02 PM
Now if I really wanna be legalistic then I can say : If Abraham was the first Jew,,and the lineage of being a Jew gets passed down by a female... then it is impossible for there to be more Jews after Abraham.... for he was male, last time I heard...
Obviously Sarah was a Jew too...;)

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 09:05 PM
Obviously Sarah was a Jew too...;)
And how did she become one :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:11 PM
And how did she become one :hmm:
She accepted the covenant, as her husband did.

Ta-An
Aug 21st 2008, 09:17 PM
She accepted the covenant, as her husband did.
Where does it say that :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:20 PM
Where does it say that :hmm:
It doesn't.

But since God told Abraham that his seed would come from Isaac, Sarah must have accepted it and become a Jew. Possibly when her name was changed...?

DeafPosttrib
Aug 21st 2008, 09:29 PM
Was Abraham's father, Jew?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:33 PM
Was Abraham's father, Jew?

No, he was Terach the idol-worshipper. As I said, Abraham was the first Jew.

Teke
Aug 21st 2008, 09:42 PM
Really? It doesn't seem to match anything in the five books of Moses....

What doesn't match ? :confused
Are you suggesting Christians should be acting like Jews.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 09:44 PM
What doesn't match ? :confused
Are you suggesting Christians should be acting like Jews.
No, you're suggesting that Christians do act like Jews. Which I just don't see.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:55 AM
Obviously Sarah was a Jew too...;)


She accepted the covenant, as her husband did.


Where does it say that :hmm:


It doesn't.

But since God told Abraham that his seed would come from Isaac, Sarah must have accepted it and become a Jew. Possibly when her name was changed...?In all fairness, Fenris, you are very quick to bring to our attention things you do not believe are written in TaNaKh, yet you throw together something like this and expect we should not do the same. :rolleyes: It's not there Fenris. In fact there's nothing anywhere in scripture that says a Jew is a Jew because their mother is a Jew. But all this is moot as it pertains to Yeshua as His mother WAS a Jew. So, in relation to the OP the Jews did not reject Him because He wasn't a Jew because He is. ;)

God Bless!

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:04 AM
But all this is moot as it pertains to Yeshua as His mother WAS a Jew. So, in relation to the OP the Jews did not reject Him because He wasn't a Jew because He is. ;)

God Bless!
When did I say Jesus wasn't a Jew? :confused

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:13 AM
Going back to the OP, those of you who said that Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner are most likely correct.

Jews expected the following from the Messiah:

1) Build the Third Temple
2). Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease.


4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one.


Based in part on the following verses:

Isaiah 43: 5 Fear not, for I am with thee; I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6 I will say to the north: 'Give up,' and to the south: 'Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the end of the earth ;

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many peoples shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah 14: 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one.

Ezeekiel 37: 21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 23 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever .'

Studyin'2Show
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:22 AM
When did I say Jesus wasn't a Jew? :confusedDid I say you said Jesus wasn't Jewish? :rolleyes: Fenris, come on! Address what I actually said. You are pointing at us saying, "That isn't in scripture (TaNaKh)!" All the while basing your beliefs on what isn't in scripture. :hmm: Do you see the irony? Let me post the exchange again to refresh your memory.
Obviously Sarah was a Jew too...;)


She accepted the covenant, as her husband did.


Where does it say that :hmm:


It doesn't.

But since God told Abraham that his seed would come from Isaac, Sarah must have accepted it and become a Jew. Possibly when her name was changed...?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:11 PM
Did I say you said Jesus wasn't Jewish? :rolleyes: Fenris, come on! Address what I actually said. You are pointing at us saying, "That isn't in scripture (TaNaKh)!" All the while basing your beliefs on what isn't in scripture. :hmm: Do you see the irony? Let me post the exchange again to refresh your memory.
I never said everything of value was in scripture. Obviously we both use concepts outside of scripture to round out our beliefs. Now, I ascribe higher weight to Jewish oral teachings over Christian oral teachings for two reasons: 1) Jewish oral teachings are older; and 2)Jewish oral teachings do not appear to contradict the literal meaning of Tanach text.

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:27 PM
Going back to the OP, those of you who said that Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner are most likely correct.

Jews expected the following from the Messiah:

1) Build the Third Temple.'
Yeshua said : The kingdom of G_d is at hand.... in that tense, He said :The King of the Jews is here..... but He was rejected.... He was crucified... the temple is where He dwells..... through His Spirit IN us :)

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:33 PM
Yeshua said : The kingdom of G_d is at hand.... in that tense, He said :The King of the Jews are here..... but He was rejected.... He was crucified... the temple is where He dwells..... through His Spirit IN us :)
Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner

The Jews were expecting a physical temple, not a temple within us. This doesn't make us right or you wrong, it just goes to show something other than what was expected is counted as a fulfillment of a prophecy...

Teke
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:51 PM
No, you're suggesting that Christians do act like Jews. Which I just don't see.

Christianity adopting underlying principles of aspects which guided Israel is not acting like Jews. Such principles can be applied to bring about a traditional order for worship like that which Christianity uses. Judaism has done as much in reordering their worship without a temple in Jerusalem.

So no, I'm not suggesting Christians act like Jews. Christianity is not ethnic centered. To be would go against canon (law, guidelines).

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:52 PM
Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner
.But of that the OT warns us that it would happen, and it did :D

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:55 PM
But of that the OT warns us that it would happen, and it did :D
Where might that be?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:55 PM
Christianity adopting underlying principles of aspects which guided Israel is not acting like Jews. Such principles can be applied to bring about a traditional order for worship like that which Christianity uses. Judaism has done as much in reordering their worship without a temple in Jerusalem.

So no, I'm not suggesting Christians act like Jews. Christianity is not ethnic centered. To be would go against canon (law, guidelines).
I really haven't understood much of what you've said in this thread.

Teke
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:58 PM
Going back to the OP, those of you who said that Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner are most likely correct.

Jews expected the following from the Messiah:

1) Build the Third Temple
2). Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease.


4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one.



Wouldn't 1,2,3 rest on number 4 being accomplished?

Teke
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:08 PM
I really haven't understood much of what you've said in this thread.

My first statement in the thread explained that. Religion

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:03 PM
Wouldn't 1,2,3 rest on number 4 being accomplished?
No. Why would you say that?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:04 PM
My first statement in the thread explained that. Religion
This post too is beyond my meager comprehension.

Ta-An
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:36 PM
Where might that be?So many...... I'll have to find then and then list it... some other time of the weekend :)

Mograce2U
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:17 PM
Going back to the OP, those of you who said that Jesus was rejected because he did not fulfill the prophecies in the expected manner are most likely correct.

Jews expected the following from the Messiah:

1) Build the Third Temple
2). Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
3) Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease.
4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one.
1. This prophecy from Ezekiel was given before the 2nd temple was built. This was the temple the glory of the Lord was to come to. And as Ezekiel's vision progresses, it takes on a spiritual perspective. Such a temple was not to be merely an earthly one since the waters that flowed into the earth was from the throne of God - sent to heal the nations. So the idea that a temple of spiritual proportions and influence was being described is not a far fetched idea - for the 2nd temple. Even Solomon's temple had far reaching notoriety in his day, that God was among His people and blessing them. They would have been anticipating a kingdom to come that was like Solomon's only ruled by Messiah as David's son.

The Jews of the 1st century could hardly have been expecting a 3rd temple to be built when the 2nd temple was still standing. It would have been to that temple they were anticipating the glory of the Lord to come - with Messiah. It was only after that temple was destroyed that the hope in Ezekiel was held to be a 3rd temple instead. Which means they had to change what they thought the prophecy was about.

And to change that prophecy into a 3rd temple has to ignore the history that ensued after the 2nd temple was built which the prophecy spoke of. Ezekiel's temple was the 2nd temple seems clear. So if a 3rd temple was prophecied, it is not Ezekiel who revealed it.

The real problem however with the destruction of this 2nd temple instead of the glory they expected - is finding where that was foretold. And Daniel seems to be the only one who was given that revelation. Which puts the timing for the arrival of Messiah in the 1st century, which again was for that 2nd temple. A 3rd temple hope may resolve some problems now that that temple is gone, but without considering why the 2nd temple was taken away, makes such a hope for another temple and another Messiah to be sent, futile at best.

2. Only a remnant ever had this promise.

3. This is the spiritual aspect of what is yet to come when the new heavens and new earth arrive. Which timing is the return of Jesus - the One God has ordained to be Israel's Judge which He proved by raising Him from the dead.

4. And with that 2nd temple having been taken away, you now have to explain how the knowledge of God WAS spread into the world by the Jews who followed Christ and not by the Jews who followed Moses.

Changing one's hope for a lie seems it would ensure that such a false hope will never come to pass. One cannot reject the glory of God revealed to them in Jesus' words and works and still think another will be sent to them who is more like whom they prefer. If the Exodus is any example, that is. Or the Babylon captivity. We have quite a few examples given to us of what happened when the people did this before. When the glory of God departed and judgment came instead. Which is the interim during which the Jews are now gathering back into the land yet still in unbelief. What can be the end of that?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:37 PM
1. This prophecy from Ezekiel was given before the 2nd temple was built.And the second temple's dimensions did not fit that of Ezekiel's vision.


The Jews of the 1st century could hardly have been expecting a 3rd temple to be built when the 2nd temple was still standing. Why not? Herod expanded the second temple. Could not the messiah do the same? Besides, the second temple was missing various objects from the first, and was obviously not 'complete'.



And to change that prophecy into a 3rd temple has to ignore the history that ensued after the 2nd temple was built which the prophecy spoke of. Ezekiel's temple was the 2nd temple seems clear. It's clear to some Christians, but not even all of you guys agree on that point...

Anyway, I think you guys are pretty flexible in what's metaphor and what's literal. Prior to 1948, very few Christians believed that the Jews would be returning to Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy. Now that Israel exists, tens of millions of American Christians and a majority of posters on this forum believe that the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. So who knows what future events may yet change your mind...



The real problem however with the destruction of this 2nd temple instead of the glory they expected - is finding where that was foretold. Many places. God promises to bring Jews back from the four corners of the earth, but the first diaspora was only to Babylon...


2. Only a remnant ever had this promise.Not from my reading of the bible...


3. This is the spiritual aspect of what is yet to come when the new heavens and new earth arrive. Which timing is the return of Jesus - the One God has ordained to be Israel's Judge which He proved by raising Him from the dead.Right, back to the spiritual fulfillment. I find it so interesting. Because, you see, you've taken something that was supposed to be a wondrous reward and turned it into a test. It just doesn't make sense to me.


4. And with that 2nd temple having been taken away, you now have to explain how the knowledge of God WAS spread into the world by the Jews who followed Christ and not by the Jews who followed Moses. Is that knowledge universal? Christians can't even agree amongst themselves on the nature of God...


Changing one's hope for a lie seems it would ensure that such a false hope will never come to pass. One cannot reject the glory of God revealed to them in Jesus' words and works and still think another will be sent to them who is more like whom they prefer.
Perhaps. Or maybe the messiah is still yet to come. In time, all will be revealed.

DeafPosttrib
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:45 PM
Fenris,

I would like to say something about temple.

Jews are still forward for future new temple building. They mean that, they are looking for literal physical building of temple that would be follow the coming of Messiah.

Jews of today, reject New Testament books, they do not want to read them because of Jesus.

I would like to tell you something about the four gospels.

Matthew chapter 23 and 24 were recorded in year around 30-33 A.D. the the final week of Jesus' life on earth. In chapter 23, Jesus rebuked Pharisees. Then, when Jesus was with disciples. they shew Christ of buildings of King Herod Temple area. Matt. 24:1-2 recorded that Jesus was with disciples while the building of Herod Temple was still stand there in year around 30-33 A.D.

In Matt. 24:2, Jesus told disciples that a stone of temple will not stand remain left, Christ told them, that building of Herod Temple will be destroyed completed. Disciples were shocked of Christ's predict.

Christ knows future things, because he is God and Messiah.

Was Christ lied to them that the building of Herod Temple will be destroyed?

No. His predict came true was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by Romans Army. It was fulfilled 40 years later after Christ.s prophecy.

Also, Christ told disciples, that temple will be destroy, and he will raise it up in three days. They were puzzled what Christ was talking about. They told Christ, that temple was built for 46 years, but why 3 days? They were doubt of Christ's predict. They thought Christ was speaking of literal building. But, Christ was speaking of his body as temple, that his body will be raise in three days. Christ's predict was already fulfilled by his resurrection.

After Christ's resurrection occured, many Jews and disciples were still doubt of Christ's resurrection. Christ had to shown them to proof them that he is alive for 40 days after his resurrection.

Christ did asked Thomas to touch his hands which were nailed. Thomas relaized that Christ is real and alive, not just "ghost", but he is 100% flesh, 100% spirit. Prove that He is the Messiah and Saviour. Many Jews were believed on Jesus during 40 days of his journey on earth before his ascendion return back to heaven.

There were much overwhelmed evidences that, there were 500 witnesses that Jesus is real and alive. Many believed him. So, Jesus told them, go and telling the good news to the world, what Christ has did for us.

Impossible for us neglect the overwhelmed evidences from 500 witnesses did saw Christ alive. We have believe what the records in the four gospels and book of acts saying of Jesus Christ. We have faith what God's word saying.

You have to believe what God's Word saying. Accept it. Why still you doubting of overwhelmed evidences from 500 witnesses who said that, they saw Jesus alive?? Are they lie? If so, why do you think they are told the lies on Jesus?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Mograce2U
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:09 PM
Right, back to the spiritual fulfillment. I find it so interesting. Because, you see, you've taken something that was supposed to be a wondrous reward and turned it into a test. It just doesn't make sense to me.Could that be because modern Judaism is not founded upon the hope of resurrection anymore - as was Abraham's faith? Did not the Pharisee's believe in the spiritual realm, whereas the Saducees did not? How did the Pharisees become like the Saducees?

Eternal life is our hope and God's plan was to redeem His people to give them this hope. The law was given to serve their sins and keep their faith alive until the Messiah arrived to bring this hope for forgiveness of sin and eternal life. I suspect you dislike that we insist on focusing upon the spiritual aspect of why we believe and hope in Jesus as the Christ. But you seem to have no understanding of the oracles of God which were given to you. And you have no ears to hear what Jesus was sent to reveal to you. What you have yet to show us is that you have a faith in God at all except in worldly things.


Perhaps. Or maybe the messiah is still yet to come. In time, all will be revealed.And when it is revealed, how will you justify your 5.805 posts that Jesus was not the Christ whom God sent to save you? You really ought to take another look into the NT and see if that could not be so. A little faith can bring a great deal of light, if the truth is what you want to find.

Addendum:

(John 3:12 KJV) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Studyin'2Show
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:34 PM
I never said everything of value was in scripture. Obviously we both use concepts outside of scripture to round out our beliefs. Now, I ascribe higher weight to Jewish oral teachings over Christian oral teachings for two reasons: 1) Jewish oral teachings are older; and 2)Jewish oral teachings do not appear to contradict the literal meaning of Tanach text.Actually, I'm pretty much sola scriptura. :D Anything considered doctrine should be from the inspired word of God.

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
Fenris,

I would like to say something about temple.

Jews are still forward for future new temple building. They mean that, they are looking for literal physical building of temple that would be follow the coming of Messiah. That is all true.


Jews of today, reject New Testament books, they do not want to read them because of Jesus.
Actually, I have read them.


Was Christ lied to them that the building of Herod Temple will be destroyed?

No. His predict came true was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by Romans Army. It was fulfilled 40 years later after Christ.s prophecy. Well, a couple of things. First of all, there was constant strife between the Jews and the Romans. It wasn't a huge stretch to imagine a war. And secondly, the gospels were not written down until 60-70AD at the earliest. They may have been written as late as 120. At that point, it was no longer a prophecy that the temple would be destroyed- it was history. So it may be a proof to you, but it isn't for me.


Also, Christ told disciples, that temple will be destroy, and he will raise it up in three days. They were puzzled what Christ was talking about. They told Christ, that temple was built for 46 years, but why 3 days? They were doubt of Christ's predict. They thought Christ was speaking of literal building. But, Christ was speaking of his body as temple, that his body will be raise in three days. Christ's predict was already fulfilled by his resurrection. Right, but this is only a fulfillment if you believe that Jesus actually arose from the dead.


After Christ's resurrection occured, many Jews and disciples were still doubt of Christ's resurrection. Christ had to shown them to proof them that he is alive for 40 days after his resurrection.

Christ did asked Thomas to touch his hands which were nailed. Thomas relaized that Christ is real and alive, not just "ghost", but he is 100% flesh, 100% spirit. Prove that He is the Messiah and Saviour. Many Jews were believed on Jesus during 40 days of his journey on earth before his ascendion return back to heaven.

There were much overwhelmed evidences that, there were 500 witnesses that Jesus is real and alive. Many believed him. So, Jesus told them, go and telling the good news to the world, what Christ has did for us.

Impossible for us neglect the overwhelmed evidences from 500 witnesses did saw Christ alive. We have believe what the records in the four gospels and book of acts saying of Jesus Christ. We have faith what God's word saying. Again, this wasn't penned until many years later.

Jews are still waiting for the literal fulfillment of the prophecies. If we're wrong, so be it. I believe we're right though.

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:16 PM
Could that be because modern Judaism is not founded upon the hope of resurrection anymore - as was Abraham's faith? Did not the Pharisee's believe in the spiritual realm, whereas the Saducees did not? How did the Pharisees become like the Saducees?We believe in the resurrection of the dead. All the dead. When the messiah comes, though.


Eternal life is our hope and God's plan was to redeem His people to give them this hope. The law was given to serve their sins and keep their faith alive until the Messiah arrived to bring this hope for forgiveness of sin and eternal life. I suspect you dislike that we insist on focusing upon the spiritual aspect of why we believe and hope in Jesus as the Christ. But you seem to have no understanding of the oracles of God which were given to you. And you have no ears to hear what Jesus was sent to reveal to you. What you have yet to show us is that you have a faith in God at all except in worldly things. I like to be true to my word. When I say that I am going to do something, I intend to do it. Should God do any less?


And when it is revealed, how will you justify your 5.805 posts that Jesus was not the Christ whom God sent to save you? You really ought to take another look into the NT and see if that could not be so. A little faith can bring a great deal of light, if the truth is what you want to find.
If I am condemned to eternal damnation for following the faith of my ancestors, so be it. At least I will have them for company- especially the holy ones who were martyred for their refusal to convert.

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:17 PM
Actually, I'm pretty much sola scriptura. :D Anything considered doctrine should be from the inspired word of God.
When I read the bible, the commandments cannot be fulfilled sola scriptura. There is too much information missing.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:03 PM
When I read the bible, the commandments cannot be fulfilled sola scriptura. There is too much information missing.This is why we have been given the Holy Spirit. Nothing else is necessary to gain understanding.

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:39 PM
This is why we have been given the Holy Spirit. Nothing else is necessary to gain understanding.
Ah.

Well, two points. Firstly, when someone says the holy spirit gave them instructions, it ends the debate. It something that can't be proved or disproved, and there's no further discussion. What happens when two people get different revelations is open to debate.

The rabbis were always suspicious of individual revelation for that reason. The logical exegesis of the Talmud could at least be explained to someone who didn't already know it.

Secondly, the holy spirit is not needed because we already have the oral law which explains the written one.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:34 AM
Ah.

Well, two points. Firstly, when someone says the holy spirit gave them instructions, it ends the debate. It something that can't be proved or disproved, and there's no further discussion. What happens when two people get different revelations is open to debate.

The rabbis were always suspicious of individual revelation for that reason. The logical exegesis of the Talmud could at least be explained to someone who didn't already know it.

Secondly, the holy spirit is not needed because we already have the oral law which explains the written one.Why do you insist on answering unasked questions? :hmm: See, here's the thing, the Holy Spirit is NEVER going to go against the written word of God. Now here's the main trouble I have with Talmud. It's basically religion by majority opinion. :rolleyes: But man is flawed, fallen, and the majority is quite often wrong. Because something can be explained does not mean it is truth, and I'm not one for following the majority just because it's the majority. :thumbsdn: Do you not believe the Father can lead His children when they ask for His guidance? There was a time when God said that the people had rejected Him as King and asked for a king like the other nations. Should His people continue to reject His guidance and rather accept the Talmud as their king? :hmm:

Shabbat Shalom!

Ta-An
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:38 AM
Where might that be?
We can start off with Isaiah 53, en then move to Ps 22.... the rest I'll post later :)

Mograce2U
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:13 PM
We believe in the resurrection of the dead. All the dead. When the messiah comes, though.How would you know if this had happened? Do you think the resurrected will come up out of their graves so they can walk among us who have not yet died? Will those who have been resurrected never die again? What happens for those who haven't died yet at that time? I am just curious what the Jewish belief about the resurrection is.

What Paul preached about the resurrection is what caused some Jews to have him arrested and try to kill him. I am wondering what he said that was so different from what he said their hope in it was supposed to be. Because according to Paul that hope had arrived according to what Moses and the prophets said about Messiah, and His resurrection from the dead was his proof.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 11:29 AM
Why do you insist on answering unasked questions? :hmm: See, here's the thing, the Holy Spirit is NEVER going to go against the written word of God.That's actually not my perception.


Now here's the main trouble I have with Talmud. It's basically religion by majority opinion. :rolleyes: But man is flawed, fallen, and the majority is quite often wrong. Because something can be explained does not mean it is truth, and I'm not one for following the majority just because it's the majority.That's fine. But we believe that God wants us to be part if the process. Anyway, the Talmud is based on logical tools and not just a random majority vote.


:thumbsdn: Do you not believe the Father can lead His children when they ask for His guidance?Children grow up. We believe the era of prophecy is over, in part, because we are 'old enough' to make out own choices.


There was a time when God said that the people had rejected Him as King and asked for a king like the other nations. Should His people continue to reject His guidance and rather accept the Talmud as their king? :hmm:

Shabbat Shalom!

Read your bible. God made rules for a Jewish king. Obviously even though He thought it was less than ideal, it was a concession He was willing to make.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 11:31 AM
We can start off with Isaiah 53, en then move to Ps 22.... the rest I'll post later :)
I don't see how that supports your point of " But of that the OT warns us that it would happen, and it did", especially since Jews do not consider those two chapters to even be about the messiah.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 11:35 AM
How would you know if this had happened? Do you think the resurrected will come up out of their graves so they can walk among us who have not yet died? Will those who have been resurrected never die again?Yes.


What happens for those who haven't died yet at that time? We'll find out when it happens I guess.


What Paul preached about the resurrection is what caused some Jews to have him arrested and try to kill him. I am wondering what he said that was so different from what he said their hope in it was supposed to be.Me too, because I don't think Jews would try to have anyone killed based on their opinion on some theological topic. You guys expect first century Jews to behave like medieval Christians, having inquisitions for blasphemy, when in fact a wide variety of opinions was tolerated on anything.


Because according to Paul that hope had arrived according to what Moses and the prophets said about Messiah, and His resurrection from the dead was his proof.I'm not aware of any prophecy about the messiah coming back form the dead...

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 01:12 PM
I don't see how that supports your point of " But of that the OT warns us that it would happen, and it did", especially since Jews do not consider those two chapters to even be about the messiah. And that is where the snag comes in :rolleyes:

Studyin'2Show
Aug 24th 2008, 01:17 PM
That's fine. But we believe that God wants us to be part if the process. Anyway, the Talmud is based on logical tools and not just a random majority vote. Children grow up. We believe the era of prophecy is over, in part, because we are 'old enough' to make out own choices. How are those choices working out since you, as a people, are 'old enough' to make them? How did Adam's choice pan out in the garden? I'm 40 years old and I STILL go to my mother for advice. ;)

Mograce2U
Aug 24th 2008, 02:29 PM
I'm not aware of any prophecy about the messiah coming back form the dead...

(Dan 7:13-14 KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. {14} And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 04:44 PM
I'm 40 years old and I STILL go to my mother for advice. ;)

Every day?

Anyway, I forsee a problem. What happens when the holy spirit gives conflicting advice to different people? I mean, you've got Catholics, Protestants, SDA's, JWs, LDs, and such and such. They all claim to have had communication with the holy spirit...

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 04:45 PM
And that is where the snag comes in :rolleyes:So what you meant to say is "The OT has verses that one could perceive as warnings about that if it furthered their belief system."

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 04:48 PM
(Dan 7:13-14 KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. {14} And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Where does it say anything about coming back from the dead?:hmm:

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 04:48 PM
Every day?

Anyway, I forsee a problem. What happens when the holy spirit gives conflicting advice to different people? I mean, you've got Catholics, Protestants, SDA's, JWs, LDs, and such and such. They all claim to have had communication with the holy spirit...And then there is the problem of interpreting what they hear ;)
And also: not listening
And also: the father of lies and deceit that brings his distorted message.....

Fenris, the walk of Christianity is not just moonshine and roses... cause the roses have them some thorns on too :o

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 04:50 PM
So what you meant to say is "The OT has verses that one could perceive as warnings about that if it furthered their belief system.":hmm: What do you say?? :blush: lack of grasping here :o

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 05:07 PM
And then there is the problem of interpreting what they hear ;)
And also: not listening
And also: the father of lies and deceit that brings his distorted message.....

Fenris, the walk of Christianity is not just moonshine and roses... cause the roses have them some thorns on too :o
So whose holy spirit is right?

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 05:09 PM
:hmm: What do you say?? :blush: lack of grasping here :o
Because the warnings you presented aren't explicit. They are only warnings if you believe they are, which is how I kinda see the whole Christian reading of the Tanach.

Mograce2U
Aug 24th 2008, 05:09 PM
Where does it say anything about coming back from the dead?:hmm:The timing is the judgment:

(Dan 7:9-10 KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. {10} A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Which is also when the saints are given the kingdom:

(Dan 7:22 KJV) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

It seems everyone involved has been raised from the dead.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 05:16 PM
It seems everyone involved has been raised from the dead.
Yes, yes, we all believe that the dead will come back to life in the messianic era. But that isn't what you were talking about. You're talking about the messiah coming back from the dead, which I don't see anywhere...

Mograce2U
Aug 24th 2008, 05:31 PM
Yes, yes, we all believe that the dead will come back to life in the messianic era. But that isn't what you were talking about. You're talking about the messiah coming back from the dead, which I don't see anywhere...
(John 12:32-34 KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. {33} This he said, signifying what death he should die. {34} The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

The parallel Jesus draws is Moses lifting up the serpent on the brass pole. (John 3:14-15)

The only way anyone can abide for ever is if they have been raised from the dead.

(Psa 89:3-4 KJV) I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, {4} Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

(Psa 89:29 KJV) His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

(Psa 89:36-37 KJV) His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. {37} It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

(Isa 9:7 KJV) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 05:51 PM
The only way anyone can abide for ever is if they have been raised from the dead.

No, it's a poetic way of saying David's descendants will rule on the throne. It's one of those nonliteral readings of the bible you guy are so fond of.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 05:57 PM
So whose holy spirit is right?What I meant was..... some people hear wrong,

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 06:03 PM
What I meant was..... some people hear wrong,
So how do you know who is hearing right and who is hearing wrong?

Teke
Aug 24th 2008, 06:24 PM
Yes, yes, we all believe that the dead will come back to life in the messianic era.

We don't "all" believe the dead will come back in the Messianic era. In fact we believe that there is no death for those in the Lord. There are those who believe this is the Messianic era, when all live in one Spirit (all are made alive in Christ), after this there is only the final judgment to come.


But that isn't what you were talking about. You're talking about the messiah coming back from the dead, which I don't see anywhere...

If Messiah is a flesh and blood man, then even He is subject to the death God ordained for all mankind.
Or do you believe God rethinks the matter for the Messiah....

The heaven on earth concept is called "chiliasm in Christianity. It was condemned long ago.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 06:31 PM
We don't "all" believe the dead will come back in the Messianic era. In fact we believe that there is no death for those in the Lord. There are those who believe this is the Messianic era, when all live in one Spirit (all are made alive in Christ), after this there is only the final judgment to come.So people today 'die' but they don't 'die'?



If Messiah is a flesh and blood man, then even He is subject to the death God ordained for all mankind.You still haven't shown me where it says the messiah will die and be ressurected.

Teke
Aug 24th 2008, 07:13 PM
So people today 'die' but they don't 'die'?

When a seed becomes a plant, has the seed died?


You still haven't shown me where it says the messiah will die and be ressurected.

That was/is part of the mystery. No one knew this until the Messiah told them what would happen.
Christianity has spent the last couple thousand years trying to explain this mystery of God and it's implications.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 07:17 PM
So how do you know who is hearing right and who is hearing wrong?I shall not be the judge :D

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:22 PM
When a seed becomes a plant, has the seed died?
You know, I've come to expect comments like this.


That was/is part of the mystery. No one knew this until the Messiah told them what would happen.
Ok, so it wasn't prophesized that the messiah would die and come back to life. So it wasn't expected.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:25 PM
I shall not be the judge :DObviously you think you're right, though... :hmm:

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 07:27 PM
Obviously you think you're right, though... :hmm:
I'm a bit slow tonight Fenris..... I think am right about what??

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:30 PM
I'm a bit slow tonight Fenris..... I think am right about what??
That the holy spirit is telling you the truth, of course.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 07:35 PM
That the holy spirit is telling you the truth, of course.I believe it is called 'discernment' and 'relationship'.... and believe you me... doubt sometimes tries to stick its feelers in... but for His grace I rejoice :pp

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:37 PM
I believe it is called 'discernment' and 'relationship'.... and believe you me... doubt sometimes tries to stick its feelers in... but for His grace I rejoice :ppOf course, everyone else blessed with the holy spirit feels the same way...

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 07:40 PM
Of course, everyone else blessed with the holy spirit feels the same way...And you?? ?

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:45 PM
And you?? ?
What about me? I don't rely on the holy spirit to divine what God wants me to do.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 07:48 PM
What about me? I don't rely on the holy spirit to divine what God wants me to do.
So how do you hear G_d speak to you??

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 07:52 PM
So how do you hear G_d speak to you??He speaks to me through the words of Moses and the prophets.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 08:02 PM
He speaks to me through the words of Moses and the prophets.Fair enough..... do you not seek His guidance for the every day things..... things that are not written in the Bible... eg. which road to take at a cross road.,,, when you are not sure... ow do you hear Him then??

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 08:10 PM
Fair enough..... do you not seek His guidance for the every day things..... things that are not written in the Bible... eg. which road to take at a cross road.,,, when you are not sure...
Nope. God expects us to make our own choices.


ow do you hear Him then??

I hear him through what the prophets wrote. For example, from the Haftorah reading yesterday:

Isaiah 49: 14 But Zion said: 'The LORD hath forsaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me.' 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, these may forget, yet will not I forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me. 17 Thy children make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth from thee. 18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all as with an ornament, and gird thyself with them, like a bride. 19 For thy waste and thy desolate places and thy land that hath been destroyed--surely now shalt thou be too strait for the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. 20 The children of thy bereavement shall yet say in thine ears: 'The place is too strait for me; give place to me that I may dwell.' 21 Then shalt thou say in thy heart: 'Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have been bereaved of my children, and am solitary, an exile, and wandering to and fro? And who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where were they?' {P} 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations, and set up Mine ensign to the peoples, and they shall bring thy sons in their bosom, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy foster-fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers; they shall bow down to thee with their face to the earth, and lick the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD, for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me. {S} 24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the captives of the victorious be delivered? {S} 25 But thus saith the LORD: Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered; and I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children. 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob .

God still loves us. He has not forgotten us.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 08:17 PM
Nope. God expects us to make our own choices.


I hear him through what the prophets wrote. For example, from the Haftorah reading yesterday:

Isaiah 49: 14 But Zion said: 'The LORD hath forsaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me.' 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, these may forget, yet will not I forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me. 17 Thy children make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth from thee. 18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all as with an ornament, and gird thyself with them, like a bride. 19 For thy waste and thy desolate places and thy land that hath been destroyed--surely now shalt thou be too strait for the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. 20 The children of thy bereavement shall yet say in thine ears: 'The place is too strait for me; give place to me that I may dwell.' 21 Then shalt thou say in thy heart: 'Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have been bereaved of my children, and am solitary, an exile, and wandering to and fro? And who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where were they?' {P} 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations, and set up Mine ensign to the peoples, and they shall bring thy sons in their bosom, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy foster-fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers; they shall bow down to thee with their face to the earth, and lick the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD, for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me. {S} 24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the captives of the victorious be delivered? {S} 25 But thus saith the LORD: Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered; and I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children. 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob .

God still loves us. He has not forgotten us.My friend, and this is a Messianic passage Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
Nope. God expects us to make our own choices.
. So you never pray for guidance :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 08:22 PM
My friend, and this is a Messianic passage
The whole passage is messianic. Obviously.

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 08:25 PM
The whole passage is messianic. Obviously.yes... it is so :)

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 08:25 PM
So you never pray for guidance :hmm:No, I pray for forgiveness, I pray for assistance, I pray for many things. I don't ask God to guide my footsteps because I know He already has...

Ta-An
Aug 24th 2008, 08:31 PM
I don't ask God to guide my footsteps because I know He already has...David did ask for guidance: Ps 25:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=19&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Guide me in your truth, and teach me, For you are the God of my salvation, I wait for you all day long.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 08:38 PM
David did ask for guidance: Ps 25:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=19&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Guide me in your truth, and teach me, For you are the God of my salvation, I wait for you all day long.
Yes, this is quoted, more or less, in a prayer I have posted up here before.

Teke
Aug 24th 2008, 09:03 PM
You know, I've come to expect comments like this.

Since God is the source of life (not flesh and blood), how else would you explain it.


Ok, so it wasn't prophesized that the messiah would die and come back to life. So it wasn't expected.

Yeah, God is known to do the unexpected. From the beginning, the Incarnation, to the end, the Resurrection, God did what we would never had imagined.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 09:05 PM
David did ask for guidance: Ps 25:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=82&BOOK=19&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Guide me in your truth, and teach me, For you are the God of my salvation, I wait for you all day long.
Anyway, David isn't saying "I don't know what to do". Other psalms heap lavish praise on the Torah and the Law. David is saying, " I know what I have to do, please help me to do it."

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 09:06 PM
Since God is the source of life (not flesh and blood), how else would you explain it. I don't know. Now people die but they are not dead. :giveup:



Yeah, God is known to do the unexpected. From the beginning, the Incarnation, to the end, the Resurrection, God did what we would never had imagined.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Mograce2U
Aug 24th 2008, 10:20 PM
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.And yet what He has not told them, He shows them:

(Isa 52:13-15 KJV) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. {14} As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: {15} So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus did come and tell them about 70AD.

Teke
Aug 24th 2008, 10:40 PM
And yet what He has not told them, He shows them:

(Isa 52:13-15 KJV) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. {14} As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: {15} So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus did come and tell them about 70AD.

Indeed.

As Paul puts it.."But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand." Rom 15:21

Teke
Aug 24th 2008, 10:52 PM
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Then I guess He did.

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 10:56 PM
(Isa 52:13-15 KJV) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. {14} As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: {15} So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.


Look at my sig. We believe the servant is the Jewish people. Read chapters 52 and 54- they speak of the redemption of the Jewish people. So 53 fits into that narrative.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 24th 2008, 11:33 PM
Every day?

Anyway, I forsee a problem. What happens when the holy spirit gives conflicting advice to different people? I mean, you've got Catholics, Protestants, SDA's, JWs, LDs, and such and such. They all claim to have had communication with the holy spirit...And Jews all agree theologically? I think not. ;)

Mograce2U
Aug 25th 2008, 12:39 AM
Look at my sig. We believe the servant is the Jewish people. Read chapters 52 and 54- they speak of the redemption of the Jewish people. So 53 fits into that narrative.Israel is both the servant and the redeemer?

(Isa 53:1-2 KJV) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

You see the 'we' and the 'him' as one and the same? This doesn't work in English, how can it work in Hebrew? Israel cannot save herself!

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 11:39 AM
And Jews all agree theologically? I think not. ;)
Of course not. But the core of Judaism does agree on the Law. You don't, because you don't know what the Law is until the holy spirit tells you.

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 11:46 AM
Israel is both the servant and the redeemer?Yes. Israel is the servant of God and we have a special role in mankind.


(Isa 53:1-2 KJV) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.Chapter 53 actually starts at 52:13, so let's look at that:

13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- 15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive .

So who is saying "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? " The startled nations and kings from verse 15. They're saying "Those despised Jews that we oppressed and hated are actually God's servant!"




You see the 'we' and the 'him' as one and the same? This doesn't work in English, how can it work in Hebrew? Israel cannot save herself!
Where does it say Israel saves itself?

Studyin'2Show
Aug 25th 2008, 01:50 PM
Of course not. But the core of Judaism does agree on the Law. You don't, because you don't know what the Law is until the holy spirit tells you.That's a poor perception of Christianity. :rolleyes: Scripture tells us what is right and what is wrong. The Holy Spirit merely guides us as to HOW to walk it out in our lives. And from secular to reformed to orthodox Jews, you all walk out the Law as differently as we do. ;)

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 02:13 PM
That's a poor perception of Christianity. :rolleyes:
Well, that's the idea I get from hanging out here. I'm constantly told that the Talmud is bad because it uses logical rules to deduce exactly what the Law is. The holy spirit is good because it tells us what the Law is.



Scripture tells us what is right and what is wrong. Scripture is in too many cases obviously lacking.


The Holy Spirit merely guides us as to HOW to walk it out in our lives. And from secular to reformed to orthodox Jews, you all walk out the Law as differently as we do. ;)
Not so. Orthodox Jews follow the Law in it's entirety, and the others don't. That's the difference.

Teke
Aug 25th 2008, 02:31 PM
Conversations on "the law" always strike at human ethics. Therefore there will not always be agreement.

Truthfully both religions are deontic. They just begin from different paradigms.

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 02:43 PM
Conversations on "the law" always strike at human ethics.
Many biblical laws have nothing to do with ethics.

Teke
Aug 25th 2008, 03:17 PM
Many biblical laws have nothing to do with ethics.

Then they are arbitrary divine laws that aren't subjective to human ethics.

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 03:47 PM
They aren't arbitrary either.

Teke
Aug 25th 2008, 04:00 PM
They aren't arbitrary either.

That's not what I said.

Ta-An
Aug 25th 2008, 05:54 PM
Anyway, David isn't saying "I don't know what to do". Other psalms heap lavish praise on the Torah and the Law. David is saying, " I know what I have to do, please help me to do it."Heck, If I ask for guidance it is because I need to know which way to go :D

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 05:59 PM
Heck, If I ask for guidance it is because I need to know which way to go :DGod already told us what to do. Now we just have to do it.