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dan p
Aug 18th 2008, 10:44 PM
I have had dicussions with those who believe that there is only one Gospel. To me , Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached. Who if anyone can prove ,that they all preached the same gospel ?

9Marksfan
Aug 19th 2008, 10:10 AM
I have had dicussions with those who believe that there is only one Gospel. To me , Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached. Who if anyone can prove ,that they all preached the same gospel ?

What other gospel do you think they preached?

graceforme
Aug 19th 2008, 11:36 AM
I have had dicussions with those who believe that there is only one Gospel. To me , Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached. Who if anyone can prove ,that they all preached the same gospel ?

You are so right - two different gospels were preached.

The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace are different. Law and grace are different. We are not under the law in any sense in this dispensation of grace. Romans 6:14 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Those who are under the law are bound by every statute; they cannot choose certain parts of the law to obey. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet, those who attempt to keep the law break the law each day. Scripture declares that, if we try to keep the law and break just one, we have in essense broken them all. There is no such thing as anyone being able to keep the whole law.

We who live during this dispensation of grace are saved BY grace without keeping the law. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28)

Study of Scripture will clearly show that God, even though He never changes, has dealt with mankind differently through the ages. For example, Adam and Eve were instructed to be vegetarians (Gen. 1:29)

Noah was given permission to eat "every moving thing that liveth." (Gen. 9:3)

Moses, on the other hand, was given permission to eat only certain animals. Some were considered clean and others unclean. (Lev. 11:2-4)

Paul says it is acceptable to eat EVERY creature of God because they are all good, IF they are received with thanksgiving. (1 Timothy 4:4-5)

Progressive revelation is the observation that God did not give all revelation at one point in time, but He has gradually revealed information throughout history. Adam knew some things. Noah knew what Adam knew, plus some additional things were revealed to him. Moses knew what Adam and Noah knew, plus some additional things were revealed to him. Likewise, Paul had some things revealed to him - some things that had not been revealed previously to anyone - The "Mystery Program." Paul received this information directly from Jesus Christ. Scripture describes this information as a "dispensation." (Colossians 1:25-26) "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints."

And from Romans 16:25-26: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith."

Paul describes the informaton that was given to him as a "secret" because it was hidden from the ages until God made it known through Paul.

Look at a comparison between Peter's gospel of the circumcision and Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision:

Peter's gospel: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is non good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mt. 19:16-17)

Paul's gospel: "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances: for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Ephesians 2:14-15)

Peter's gospel was based on works, while Paul's gospel was based on grace. It is obvious that Peter and Paul had different gospels. If you look at Matthew 4:23 and Acts 20:24, you can see that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision is also called the "gospel of the grace of God", and Peter's gospel of the circumcision is also called the "gospel of the kingdom." We need to understand which gospel applies to us today so we can know what God requires of us.

While we should study and learn from all Scripture, not all Scripture is about us or instruction for us today. Think about Noah - we can learn about obedience and faithfulness from the story of Noah, but God is not instructing us to start building a big boat in our backyard.

You may ask - If we are not currently living under the law, then what is the function of the law today? The purpose of the law today is to act as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Galatians 3:24-25 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

I've heard many say that living under grace gives us a "license" to sin. Well, I've known many sinners in my life (including myself) and no one that I know of has ever applied for a license to sin. We all sin very easily without one. Romans 6:14-15 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace: God forbid."

The difference between living under the law and under grace is the heart motivation. The believer under grace is motivated to holy living by the love of Christ, not the ordinances of the law. If we go back to the Old Testament to find our rules for living, we have placed ourselves back under the law. Paul described this condition as "fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4)

I hope this helps explain how and why there are different gospels.

Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day.

Instrument
Aug 19th 2008, 12:42 PM
You are so right - two different gospels were preached.

The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace are different. Law and grace are different. We are not under the law in any sense in this dispensation of grace. Romans 6:14 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Those who are under the law are bound by every statute; they cannot choose certain parts of the law to obey. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet, those who attempt to keep the law break the law each day. Scripture declares that, if we try to keep the law and break just one, we have in essense broken them all. There is no such thing as anyone being able to keep the whole law.

We who live during this dispensation of grace are saved BY grace without keeping the law. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28)

Study of Scripture will clearly show that God, even though He never changes, has dealt with mankind differently through the ages. For example, Adam and Eve were instructed to be vegetarians (Gen. 1:29)

Noah was given permission to eat "every moving thing that liveth." (Gen. 9:3)

Moses, on the other hand, was given permission to eat only certain animals. Some were considered clean and others unclean. (Lev. 11:2-4)

Paul says it is acceptable to eat EVERY creature of God because they are all good, IF they are received with thanksgiving. (1 Timothy 4:4-5)

Progressive revelation is the observation that God did not give all revelation at one point in time, but He has gradually revealed information throughout history. Adam knew some things. Noah knew what Adam knew, plus some additional things were revealed to him. Moses knew what Adam and Noah knew, plus some additional things were revealed to him. Likewise, Paul had some things revealed to him - some things that had not been revealed previously to anyone - The "Mystery Program." Paul received this information directly from Jesus Christ. Scripture describes this information as a "dispensation." (Colossians 1:25-26) "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints."

And from Romans 16:25-26: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith."

Paul describes the informaton that was given to him as a "secret" because it was hidden from the ages until God made it known through Paul.

Look at a comparison between Peter's gospel of the circumcision and Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision:

Peter's gospel: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is non good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mt. 19:16-17)

Paul's gospel: "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances: for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Ephesians 2:14-15)

Peter's gospel was based on works, while Paul's gospel was based on grace. It is obvious that Peter and Paul had different gospels. If you look at Matthew 4:23 and Acts 20:24, you can see that Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision is also called the "gospel of the grace of God", and Peter's gospel of the circumcision is also called the "gospel of the kingdom." We need to understand which gospel applies to us today so we can know what God requires of us.

While we should study and learn from all Scripture, not all Scripture is about us or instruction for us today. Think about Noah - we can learn about obedience and faithfulness from the story of Noah, but God is not instructing us to start building a big boat in our backyard.

You may ask - If we are not currently living under the law, then what is the function of the law today? The purpose of the law today is to act as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Galatians 3:24-25 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

I've heard many say that living under grace gives us a "license" to sin. Well, I've known many sinners in my life (including myself) and no one that I know of has ever applied for a license to sin. We all sin very easily without one. Romans 6:14-15 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace: God forbid."

The difference between living under the law and under grace is the heart motivation. The believer under grace is motivated to holy living by the love of Christ, not the ordinances of the law. If we go back to the Old Testament to find our rules for living, we have placed ourselves back under the law. Paul described this condition as "fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4)

I hope this helps explain how and why there are different gospels.

Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day.

Maybe there was another way of salvation apart from grace of Christ? Of course not.

Both Saints OT as the NT were saved by grace.

The dispensacionalismo makes a world of difference between Law and Grace. However, Law and Grace go together.


Blessings.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 02:08 PM
It's really simple.....you've gotten involved in a system of interpretation that is creating something rigid that is not there.

The Gospel is simply salvation of humankind through the reconciliation of Christ as our Lord and Savior; with repentence and forgviness through Him alone.

Every human being, whether living before the Cross and looking forward in anticipation to the Messiah who would take their sins; or every human being looking backward at what Christ accomplished at the cross; both become saved from that one single important Gospel.

Jesus taught the way of repentence, forgiveness, and unity with the Father through Him as the sole way to Heaven. Paul taught the same thing; reinforcing and building upon the same message Jesus had taught. Paul's role afterward, was not to create or debut another different gospel; but to further explain, teach, and disciple new believers in the Gospel of Christ.

Notice the gospel coming out of Jesus' mouth in the Gospel writings:

Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. "

Matthew 10:32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"

John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 10:15 "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. "



That's the simple gospel message of Jesus Christ; as spoken by Jesus Christ.


That's also the same simple gospel message that Paul taught to his audiences.

Acts 19:4 "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. "

Acts 20:21 "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


Same gospel message taught by both Paul and Jesus.

There is only one gospel.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 02:13 PM
Maybe there was another way of salvation apart from grace of Christ? Of course not.

Both Saints OT as the NT were saved by grace.

The dispensacionalism makes a world of difference between Law and Grace. However, Law and Grace go together.


Blessings.


Yes, traditional dispensationalism realizes and accepts that there is but one gospel; the same gospel that Christ and Paul taught both together; applicable equally to every human being born of woman; whether in 3000BC or 30 AD or 2008 AD.

This type of dispensationalism that the OP is alluding to, however, is not traditional dispensationalism; and is usually called "Pauline Dispensationalism" or "Hyper-Dispensationalism" denoting that Paul taught a new and completely different Gospel than what Christ taught; and to a completely different subset of humankind.


Luckily few hold this few, and it is easily distinguishable from traditional dispensationalism and avoided by most Christians who agree that the gospel is simply salvation by faith through grace; and it is applied and available by Christ to all humankind, regardless of their birthdate or their race.

Sold Out
Aug 19th 2008, 02:24 PM
I have had dicussions with those who believe that there is only one Gospel. To me , Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached. Who if anyone can prove ,that they all preached the same gospel ?

Let's back up even further...what Gospel do you believe Abraham believed?

"The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham:" Galatians 3:8

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 02:28 PM
I do not understand what the OP is saying. How does the OP see Jesus and Paul preaching a different gospel.

As perhaps an aside, I will politely disagree with this statement:


the gospel is simply salvation by faith through grace

I suggest that the gospel is the news that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah, has risen from the dead, and has been installed as Lord of the Universe. Salvation by faith is indeed true - and it is a consequence or "part" of the gospel. But, as Paul describes it, the gospel is all about Jesus' lordship, not about about a system of salvation for individuals:

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He (promised beforehand through His (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27933E))prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27934F))of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5through whom we have received grace....

Please do not misrepresent me. I do not deny the truth of "justification by faith". But the gospel is primarily the announcement that Jesus is Lord of all.

But I still do not see what the issue is for the OP....

Sold Out
Aug 19th 2008, 02:31 PM
Ok, I'm curious. Can anybody give me the bible definition of the Gospel? (where it's located in scripture)

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 02:42 PM
Ok, I'm curious. Can anybody give me the bible definition of the Gospel? (where it's located in scripture)
Try Romans 1:1-4. And it is also important to know that, at the time of Paul, the word "gospel" was sometimes used as the term to announce the accession of a new emperor to the throne in Rome. I think that if you look at Romans 1:1-4, you will see that, for Paul, the gospel is not simply about how individual persons can be saved by faith, but is the more sweeping claim that Jesus is Lord of the Universe.

After all, would the the gospel have been such a threat to Rome if it were merely a statement about "going to heaven if you believe in Jesus"? No. The term has "political" implications - it is the announcement that Jesus is Lord and therefore that Ceasar isn't. Please consider Paul in his time - he is not a 21st century westerner. But, to repeat, one (of many) consequences of the gospel is, indeed, that people can be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

But why shrink the "gospel" to this when it is so much more.

Sold Out
Aug 19th 2008, 02:50 PM
Nope.

Here is the definition of the biblical Gospel (every Christian should know this):

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received; how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4

This is the bible definition of the Gospel. Paul clearly defines it as the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 03:01 PM
As perhaps an aside, I will politely disagree with this statement:

the gospel is simply salvation by faith through grace


I suggest that the gospel is the news that Jesus is the Davidic Messiah, has risen from the dead, and has been installed as Lord of the Universe. Salvation by faith is indeed true - and it is a consequence or "part" of the gospel. But, as Paul describes it, the gospel is all about Jesus' lordship

Sure, You're right...just extended a little fuller.

That is exactly what Luke recorded in his Gospel spoken by Christ:

Not only did Jesus teach them this, but Jesus said this is the same gospel message that Moses and the OT Prophets taught....


Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

So Jesus stated through Luke the gospel both focusing on His triumph over death and the resurrection; and His triumph over sin for our benefit.

Paul taught the same gospel as Jesus and Luke above:

Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things"
Romans 2:8 "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel"

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins"

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 03:04 PM
Here is the definition of the biblical Gospel (every Christian should know this):

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received; how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4

This is the bible definition of the Gospel. Paul clearly defines it as the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

Very good and succinct verse from Paul's writings in the Corinthians. Almost verbatim to the same gospel message Luke recorded of Jesus in his gospel record.

And :)also:) includes the aspect of the Gospel that says "that Christ died for our sins".



Paul quotes Jesus per Luke's Gospel almost verbatim, in defining what the Gospel is.

I declare unto you the gospel...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4


Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name "

Instrument
Aug 19th 2008, 03:09 PM
Yes, traditional dispensationalism realizes and accepts that there is but one gospel; the same gospel that Christ and Paul taught both together; applicable equally to every human being born of woman; whether in 3000BC or 30 AD or 2008 AD.

This type of dispensationalism that the OP is alluding to, however, is not traditional dispensationalism; and is usually called "Pauline Dispensationalism" or "Hyper-Dispensationalism" denoting that Paul taught a new and completely different Gospel than what Christ taught; and to a completely different subset of humankind.


Luckily few hold this few, and it is easily distinguishable from traditional dispensationalism and avoided by most Christians who agree that the gospel is simply salvation by faith through grace; and it is applied and available by Christ to all humankind, regardless of their birthdate or their race.
What do you mean by "traditional dispensacionalism"?

Does not teach all dispensacionalism that OT and the NT are like water and oil?

Blessings.

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 03:18 PM
Nope.

Here is the definition of the biblical Gospel (every Christian should know this):

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received; how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4

This is the bible definition of the Gospel. Paul clearly defines it as the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.
No. This is only part of the gospel. In Romans 1, and throughout the New Testament, Jesus' specific Lordship over all creation is the core message of what the gospel is. Again, note what is stated in Romans 1:1-4:

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27932A))called as an apostle, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27932B))set apart for (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27932C))the gospel of God, 2which He (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27933D))promised beforehand through His (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27933E))prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27934F))of a descendant of David (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27934G))according to the flesh, 4who was declared (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27935H))the Son of God with power [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201;&version=49;#fen-NASB-27935a)]by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5through whom we have received grace

What is the gospel about? It is about God's son. What is the content of the message about God's son? That He is the Davidic Messiah (verse 3), that he was raised from teh dead (verse 4) and that this resurrection constitutes Him as Lord (verse 5).

This is not inconsistent with the text that you posted. The important bridge between the 1 Corinthians material and the Romans material is that the resurrection constitutes Jesus as Lord.

Please note: I never denied that "getting saved" is part of the gospel. But it is only part. The bigger message is that "Jesus is Lord".

Note what Paul goes on to say later in 1 Corinthians 15, the chapter from which you posted:

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet

Christians incorrectly collapse the "gospel" into a system of salvation when it is, in fact, something much bigger. And part of the reason is that we are not as biblically literate as we should be. Paul was deeply steeped in the Old Testament story. The "gospel" is part of a long single story and has a strong "Israel-ness" about it. The following is a "rework" of some ideas from theologian NT Wright:

Paul echoes the language of Isaiah: the message announced by the herald in Isaiah 40 and 52 has at last arrived. Saying ‘Jesus is Messiah and Lord’ (as in the Romans 1 statement about the content of the gospel) is thus a way of saying, among other things, ‘Israel’s history has come to its climax’; or ‘Isaiah’s prophecy has come true at last’.

This is powerfully reinforced by Paul’s insistence, exactly as in Isaiah, that this heraldic message reveals God’s righteousness, that is, God’s covenant faithfulness - a major theme of Romans, missed by many. Second, since the word ‘gospel’ was in public use to designate the message that Caesar was the Lord of the whole world, Paul’s message could not escape being confrontative: Jesus, not Caesar, is Lord, and at his name, not that of the Emperor, every knee shall bow.

There is a subversive political dimension to Paul’s theology as part of the inner meaning of ‘gospel’. It is not simply the message "believe in Jesus and you can go too Heaven when you die".

Instrument
Aug 19th 2008, 03:46 PM
Very good and succinct verse from Paul's writings in the Corinthians. Almost verbatim to the same gospel message Luke recorded of Jesus in his gospel record.

And :)also:) includes the aspect of the Gospel that says "that Christ died for our sins".



Paul quotes Jesus per Luke's Gospel almost verbatim, in defining what the Gospel is.

I declare unto you the gospel...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4


Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name "

Yes this is the Gospel. Also contained in Rom 10 and John 3.

Blessings.

Friend of I AM
Aug 19th 2008, 03:58 PM
I have had dicussions with those who believe that there is only one Gospel. To me , Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached. Who if anyone can prove ,that they all preached the same gospel ?

They preached the same gospel as far as I know. Paul even goes on to say to be careful about those who preach things contrary to the gospel that you've learned. Don't think he'd give this warning if the gospel being taught was different than Christ's.

The one difference one can really attest to is that Paul's testimony was more Gentile centered, while Jesus's testimony was centered around the nation of Israel. Still we learn from both Paul and Jesus's testimonies, that the Jews would reject him and the salvific message would be brought to the Gentiles and that this was part of God's plan.

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 04:04 PM
Yes this is the Gospel. Also contained in Rom 10 and John 3.

Blessings.
Not according to Romans 1 and to the rest of the New Testament. The "gospel" cannot be shrunken to the dimensions of a system of salvation where sins are forgiven and eternal life procured.

The "gospel" does include this but there is much more to it. The "Kingdom of God" teachings, so central to Jesus' ministry and often delivered in the form of parables, are not mere stories about human motivations and foibles. They are coded statements about how God is becoming King - about the way the world should be run now that Jesus has been installed as Lord.

Again, the term "gospel" was used in that time to announce the ascendence of a new emperor to the throne in Rome. Paul knows this and in Romans 1:1-4, he is declaring, as part of the gospel (if not the major point) - Jesus is Lord (and Ceasar isn't).

No wonder the church is so ineffectual. If one believes that the gospel is a "system of salvation" that leaves the power and governance structures of the world untouched, no wonder we such little evidence of the Kingdom.

Jesus announced good news for the poor. This is a message about something much more than "believe in Jesus, get your sins forgiven, and go to Heaven". It is about the here and now. It is about a new King - Israel's hope for this world fulfilled.

The Romans were not tossing Paul in jail because he was preaching "justification by faith", they were tossing him in jail because his "gospel" has Jesus replacing Ceasar. From Acts 17:

When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, "These men who have upset [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017%20;&version=49;#fen-NASB-27530a)](P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017%20;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27530P))the world have come here also; 7and Jason (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017%20;&version=49;#cen-NASB-27531Q))has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus."

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 04:15 PM
What do you mean by "traditional dispensacionalism"?

Does not teach all dispensacionalism that OT and the NT are like water and oil?

Blessings.

No disharmony like water and oil.

Rather Perfect Harmony; like God is consistent in lifting His Son up as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, (and being willful for all to be saved thru Him).

OT "Of a truth it is, that God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings" Daniel 2:47
NT "our Lord Jesus Christ:Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" I TIm 6:14

OT "Their voice is gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." Psalms 18:4
NT "Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Romans 10:18

OT "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23
NT "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10

OT "Thy throne, O God, for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Psalms 45:6
NT "unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" Hebrews 1:8,9

OT "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner. This has been done of the Lord; and it is wonderful in our eyes."
NT "The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?" Mark 12:10,11

OT "And the deliverer shall come for Sion's sake, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this shall be my covenant with them, said the Lord; My Spirit which is upon thee, and the words which I have put in thy mouth, shall never fail from thy mouth, nor from the mouth of thy seed, for the Lord has spoken it, henceforth and for ever." Isaiah 59:20,21
NT "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:26

OT "IArise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." Isaiah 60:1
NT "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Ephesians 5:14

OT "the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4
NT "The just shall live by faith. " Romans 1:17
[I]
OT "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" Isaiah 53:4
NT "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses" Matthew 8:17

OT "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" Hosea 6:6
NT "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" Matthew 9:13

OT "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, and with all thy soul, and all thy strength." Deuteronomy 6:5
NT "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength" Mark 12:30

OT "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind; to declare the acceptable year of the Lord" Isaiah 61:1
NT "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19

OT "For the zeal of thine house has eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me." Psalms 68:9
NT "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me." John 2:17, Rom 15:3

OT "And I will cause all thy sons to be taught of God" Isaiah 54:13
NT"And they shall be all taught of God." John 6:45

OT "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living" Isaiah 53:7,8
NT "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth." Acts 8:32

OT "The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become good for nothing, there is none that does good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes." Psalms 13:1
NT "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:10-18

OT "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and in whose mouth there is no guile." Psalms 31:1
NT "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:7,8

OT I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou ar] my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." Hosea 2:23, 1:10
NT "I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." Romans 9:25

OT "therefore thus saith the Lord, even the Lord, Behold I lay for the foundations of Sion a costly stone, a choice, a corner-stone, a precious stone, for its foundations; and he that believes on him shall by no means be ashamed." Isaiah 28:16
NT "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:33

OT "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." Deuteronomy 30:12-14
NT "Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach" Romans 10:6
OT "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31
NT "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:8

OT "The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble." Proverbs 3:34
NT "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. James 4:6

OT But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5
NT "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

Instrument
Aug 19th 2008, 04:22 PM
Again, the term "gospel" was used in that time to announce the ascendence of a new emperor to the throne in Rome. Paul knows this and in Romans 1:1-4, he is declaring, as part of the gospel (if not the major point) - Jesus is Lord (and Ceasar isn't).



Where did you get this?

On the other hand, I do not think anyone deny the implications of the Gospel in the lives of those who receive.

Clearly, the good news of salvation is this: God became incarnate, preached his word, died on the Cross, declined to hell and then resurrected. ¿Is not this the Gospel?

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 05:18 PM
Where did you get this?


From the writing of theologian / historian NT Wright. In the following quote from NT Wright, the opening sentence refers to an argument he has just finished presenting, and which I have not reproduced, as to why Old Testament precedent would justify us understanding "gospel" as announcing kingship. Now he turns to the stuff about the term "gospel" in relation to Ceasar, i.e. how pagans would use the term:


For some, this evidence is quite sufficient to win the verdict: this is the background against which the New Testament ‘gospel’ is to be understood. Others,however, still insist upon the non-Jewish background as the vital one. In the Greek world, "gospel" is a technical term for "news of victory"’.9 More specifically, it refers to the announcement of the birth or accession of an emperor. Not least at the time of Augustus, who became the first Roman emperor following a long period of civil war, the coming of a new ruler meant the promise of peace, a new start for the world:

The providence which has ordered the whole of our life, showing concern and zeal, has ordained the most perfect consummation for human life by giving to it Augustus, by filling him with virtue for doing the work of a benefactor among men, and by sending in him, as it were, a saviour for us and those who come after us, to make war to cease, to create order everywhere. . . ; the birthday of the god [Augustus] was the beginning for the world of the glad tidings that have come to men through him. .

dan p
Aug 19th 2008, 05:31 PM
If we look at Gal 1:11, we see that what Paul received it by direct revelation from the risen Christ, and not from the 12, or the earthly ministry of Jesus like the 12. v7 says that , but contraiwise , when they saw that the gospel of the UNcircumcision ( the gospel to the Gentiles ) was committed unto me ( to Paul ) as the gospel of the CIRcomcision was unto Peter. They are 2 messages here, one to UNcircumcision ( the Gentiles ) and one to the CIRcumcision ( the Jew )

For v8 says it plainly that Peter's message was good to the Jews as Pauls was mightly in me to the Gentiles. Paul never preach the Gospel of the Kingdom like Jesus OR the 12. It has also been my expierence that most don't understand the difference between HYPER, ULTRA,and Pauline Dispensationlists .

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 05:38 PM
Paul never preach the Gospel of the Kingdom like Jesus OR the 12.
I am not sure how this can be true in the light of Romans 1:1-4. Again, please remember that the term "gospel" was already in use to denote the ascendence of a new emperor. So just as Jesus announced a new kingdom and taught extensively on it ("The kingdom of heaven is like......."), so Paul is declaring that very same kingship to have been instantiated:

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=31#fen-NIV-27920a)] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our [B]Lord.

Paul is saying that Jesus is the king of the kingdom whose characteristics were extensively described by Jesus.

So I am not sure how you see Paul and Jesus as preaching different gospels.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 05:47 PM
Paul NEVER preached what Jesus , or what the 12 preached




Paul received it by direct revelation from the risen Christ


:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
That's Funny.

You want us to believe that Paul didn't preach what Jesus Preached; but Paul was told by Jesus what to Preach....but Jesus supposedly told Paul to not preach what Jesus preached.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Nope. Aint gonna work.

One gospel; the same gospel, no matter how you choose to cut and slice and spin and rearrange scriptures in an attempt to make Paul appear to be preacing a different message than Christ.



Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.
Peter's retelling of Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.
Paul's retelling of Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.

drew
Aug 19th 2008, 05:56 PM
One gospel; the same gospel, no matter how you choose to cut and slice and spin and rearrange scriptures in an attempt to make Paul appear to be preacing a different message than Christ.



Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.
Peter's retelling of Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.
Paul's retelling of Jesus' Gospel was to and for the benefit of both Jews and Gentiles.

I certainly agree. Although I am having a hard time understanding the basis for this "two gospels" idea, I can imagine that people are puzzled by this kind of thing:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.

and this:

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Is this the issue? Do you see such texts as establishing two gospels? I do not think they do, but will not give my "explanation" until I understand whether or not such statements undergird the "two gospel" position.

Instrument
Aug 19th 2008, 06:06 PM
From the writing of theologian / historian NT Wright. In the following quote from NT Wright, the opening sentence refers to an argument he has just finished presenting, and which I have not reproduced, as to why Old Testament precedent would justify us understanding "gospel" as announcing kingship. Now he turns to the stuff about the term "gospel" in relation to Ceasar, i.e. how pagans would use the term:




Then we must specify that we are talking about the "Gospel of Christ," which includes the salvation of our souls and the resurrection of our bodies in his glorious coming.

Blessings.

My heart's Desire
Aug 19th 2008, 07:01 PM
I'm finding I'm somewhat a dispensationlist and yet am not comfortable yet with saying that Paul and Jesus' gospels were different. I think Jesus was speaking the gospel of the Kingdom in the sense of Israel accepting Him as Messiah and the Kingdom that God promised to them as a People, therefore I find little that applies to the Church for the Church was produced by the rejection of the Messiah and the Kingdom by Israel, the ones to whom it was promised. I find little to show that the Church replaced Israel.

David Taylor
Aug 19th 2008, 07:15 PM
I certainly agree. Although I am having a hard time understanding the basis for this "two gospels" idea, I can imagine that people are puzzled by this kind of thing:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.

and this:

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Is this the issue? Do you see such texts as establishing two gospels? I do not think they do, but will not give my "explanation" until I understand whether or not such statements undergird the "two gospel" position.

Sometimes people take something 'odd' like that, of which they don't really understand; and build an entire doctrine around it.

All those verses are saying, in modern English to us, is that at the time Jesus said that, He was in the process of fulfilling all of the many OT messianic prophecies related to Him and Israel; that He wasn't finished doing that aspect of His ministry yet; and that it wasn't yet time to focus on the Gentiles. The focus on the Gentiles, would come soon enough, in a grand way, following His ascension.

That's really all those odd verses are saying....but some folks want to take passages like that; and similar phrases like 'Kingdom of God' and 'kingdom of Heaven' and build doctrines around them that have nothing to do with the original intent of the Biblical writer who used them. (As Pauline Dispensationalism loves to do).

Christ's focus was all humanity; but he was in the process of focusing on fulfilling the related Israel-specific OT prophecies first; and would later get to the Gentile-specific OT prophesies.

Another way Jesus could have said it, using our modern vernacular, was "don't get the cart before the horse". Both the Horse and the Cart had the same destination and would travel the same road (Gospel); just at different times; based on the fulfillment of the Scriptures.

John146
Aug 19th 2008, 07:25 PM
Very good and succinct verse from Paul's writings in the Corinthians. Almost verbatim to the same gospel message Luke recorded of Jesus in his gospel record.

And :)also:) includes the aspect of the Gospel that says "that Christ died for our sins".



Paul quotes Jesus per Luke's Gospel almost verbatim, in defining what the Gospel is.

I declare unto you the gospel...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I Corinthians 15:1-4


Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name " Good find. The idea that Jesus and Paul preached different gospels is utterly ludicrous.

Sold Out
Aug 19th 2008, 10:19 PM
They are coded statements about how God is becoming King - about the way the world should be run now that Jesus has been installed as Lord.

Again, the term "gospel" was used in that time to announce the ascendence of a new emperor to the throne in Rome. Paul knows this and in Romans 1:1-4, he is declaring, as part of the gospel (if not the major point) - Jesus is Lord (and Ceasar isn't).

No wonder the church is so ineffectual. If one believes that the gospel is a "system of salvation" that leaves the power and governance structures of the world untouched, no wonder we such little evidence of the Kingdom.

Jesus announced good news for the poor. This is a message about something much more than "believe in Jesus, get your sins forgiven, and go to Heaven". It is about the here and now. It is about a new King - Israel's hope for this world fulfilled.
."

I have to disagree with you my friend. Jesus made it quite clear that His kingdom was not of this world:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36

We are to be concerned with the ETERNAL (heaven), not the temporal:

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:" Matthew 6:19,20

Jesus did not come to set up an earthly kingdom, He came to save the lost:

"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10

drew
Aug 20th 2008, 04:19 PM
I have to disagree with you my friend. Jesus made it quite clear that His kingdom was not of this world:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36
This is a translation error that has thrown many off the track.

The original greek is more properly translated: "my kingdom is not from this world......"

Do you want me to provide the proof for this?


We are to be concerned with the ETERNAL (heaven), not the temporal:

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:" Matthew 6:19,20
Our eternal home is not in heaven, even though this is what many Christians believe. Our eternal destination is a remade and re-transformed earth. Otherwise, what is Paul talking about in the following climactic statement from Romans 8:

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28123i)] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God

This text clearly shows that (1) The earth will be transformed and rescued from decay; and (2) We will live there.

The text you quoted does not imply that our destination is Heaven. If I say to a friend that I have "stored a treasure of beer for him in the fridge", this does not mean that he has to get into the fridge to enjoy the beer. Same idea with the text you posted - anything "stored" for us in Heaven will be "brought to earth" for us as Rev 21 suggests:

2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them

Heaven descends to earth and merges with it - our ultimate home is a restored earth, not heaven.

Friend of I AM
Aug 20th 2008, 04:47 PM
Heaven descends to earth and merges with it - our ultimate home is a restored earth, not heaven.


Then how does one account for Jesus saying "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?"

drew
Aug 20th 2008, 05:14 PM
Then how does one account for Jesus saying "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?"
I am not sure exactly what it is about my position that you find puzzling. Is it my claim that the ultimate destination of the redeemed is not heaven but a re-transformed earth?

The term "Kingdom of Heaven" obviously does not refer to "Heaven" - the place where Jesus is right now and where dead saints are awaiting resurrection. Otherwise, how would it make sense for Jesus to ask us to pray this:

your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Clearly if we pray for the kingdom to come on earth, then the term "Kingdom of Heaven" has to refer to a state of affairs that can exist here on earth. The term "kingdom of heaven" refers to God's rule being made manifest here on earth (just as such rule applies in Heaven).

But no Jew would ever doubt that God rules in Heaven. So what Jesus is declaring is that, in His life, death, and resurrection, the rule of God has come to earth - fulfilling the great hope of the Jews.

Friend of I AM
Aug 20th 2008, 05:19 PM
I am not sure exactly what it is about my position that you find puzzling. Is it my claim that the ultimate destination of the redeemed is not heaven but a re-transformed earth?

The term "Kingdom of Heaven" obviously does not refer to "Heaven" - the place where Jesus is right now and where dead saints are awaiting resurrection. Otherwise, how would it make sense for Jesus to ask us to pray this:

your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Clearly if we pray for the kingdom to come on earth, then the term "Kingdom of Heaven" has to refer to a state of affairs that can exist here on earth. The term "kingdom of heaven" refers to God's rule being made manifest here on earth (just as such rule applies in Heaven).

But no Jew would ever doubt that God rules in Heaven. So what Jesus is declaring is that, in His life, death, and resurrection, the rule of God has come to earth - fulfilling the great hope of the Jews.

So do you think the Kingdom of Heaven is something that can be discernable upon it's coming?

drew
Aug 20th 2008, 05:27 PM
So do you think the Kingdom of Heaven is something that can be discernable upon it's coming?
Yes. When Christians care for the poor, the Kingdom of Heaven is seen to be here. When Christians exhibit servant leadership, the Kingdom of Heaven is seen to be here. I maintain that the rule of God has already broken through into this world - it did so 2000 years ago.

Remember also this interesting yet chilling account:

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."

36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory." 38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said.

I will, for the present, assume that you will agree that "coming in your glory" is really the same thing as saying "entering into your kingship" - I think that the whole context of Mark 10 shows this to be the case, if not the wider New Testament context.

Jesus knows that those who will be at his left and right when his kingship is initiated are none other than the two criminals who will be crucified on left and his right. That is why Jesus says "you don't know what you are asking".

Friend of I AM
Aug 20th 2008, 05:34 PM
Yes. When Christians care for the poor, the Kingdom of Heaven is seen to be here. When Christians exhibit servant leadership, the Kingdom of Heaven is seen to be here. I maintain that the rule of God has already broken through into this world - it did so 2000 years ago.

Remember also this interesting yet chilling account:

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."

36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory." 38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said.

I will, for the present, assume that you will agree that "coming in your glory" is really the same thing as saying "entering into your kingship" - I think that the whole context of Mark 10 shows this to be the case, if not the wider New Testament context.

Jesus knows that those who will be at his left and right when his kingship is initiated are none other than the two criminals who will be crucified on left and his right. That is why Jesus says "you don't know what you are asking".

Okay you make some good points..but what about Jesus saying this to his disciples in the following passage...

Luke 17:21-23
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

drew
Aug 20th 2008, 05:45 PM
Okay you make some good points..but what about Jesus saying this to his disciples in the following passage...

Luke 17:21-23
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.
I was perhaps incomplete in what I have recently posted. I do indeed agree that while there is a sense in which the Kingdom is here right now, we indeed still await the final great, dramatic, and obvious inbreaking of that Kingdom, an event that clearly still lies in the future.

So while Jesus has already been installed as king, He is, for the present, "absent" from us in a way - He is not here in person. But that does not mean He is not King. And I suggest that when Jesus says "the Kingdom of God is within you", He is saying that we who are redeemed have been given the Holy Spirit and are in the position to act in His absence as agents to work for the implementation of His Kingdom.

But, and I want to be clear about this, we are not able to fully "build the Kingdom" ourselves. There will still be a climactic future event where God fully restores creation and brings His Kingship into clear and obvious presence.

But in the meantime, we (the church) have the Holy Spirit and can and should be a "foretaste" or "firstfruit" of that future.

Friend of I AM
Aug 20th 2008, 05:51 PM
I was perhaps incomplete in what I have recently posted. I do indeed agree that while there is a sense in which the Kingdom is here right now, we indeed still await the final great, dramatic, and obvious inbreaking of that Kingdom, an event that clearly still lies in the future.

So while Jesus has already been installed as king, He is, for the present, "absent" from us in a way - He is not here in person. But that does not mean He is not King. And I suggest that when Jesus says "the Kingdom of God is within you", He is saying that we who are redeemed have been given the Holy Spirit and are in the position to act in His absence as agents to work for the implementation of His Kingdom.

But, and I want to be clear about this, we are not able to fully "build the Kingdom" ourselves. There will still be a climactic future event where God fully restores creation and brings His Kingship into clear and obvious presence.

But in the meantime, we (the church) have the Holy Spirit and can and should be a "foretaste" or "firstfruit" of that future.

I don't think it's going to be discernable based on the passage listed above...I mean Jesus clearly said to his own disciples that they wouldn't be able to see it...so I take what he said at face value. Remember, God is spirit..and those who worship him worship him in spirit and truth. Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

God bless in Christ.

drew
Aug 20th 2008, 06:06 PM
Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
When Paul refers to "flesh and blood", he is not setting the "physical" against the "spiritual", he is setting "unregenerated man" against "regenerated man".

This notion that by "flesh", Paul means "physical stuff" and by "spiritual", he means "non-physical stuff" is an error that throws us off track. And we have our Greek Platonic heritage to thank for this - introducing a distinction between the "physical" and the "non-physical" that was never there for Paul.

But Paul is clear in Romans 8 - the creation - physical stuff - will indeed be liberated from its bondage to decay and be the eternal home of the physically resurrected saints.

So, for Paul, the "physical" does indeed inherit the kingdom of God. God did not make junk when he made cosmos - including us - as physical. He is engaged in a long and costly plan of redemption for it all. Our eternal life will indeed be "physical", albeit a transformed physicality - just like for Jesus.

Do you not believe in the resurrection of the body? If you do, then you really must believe that "physical stuff" indeed does inherit the kingdom.

Friend of I AM
Aug 20th 2008, 06:09 PM
When Paul refers to "flesh and blood", he is not setting the "physical" against the "spiritual", he is setting "unregenerated man" against "regenerated man".

This notion that by "flesh", Paul means "physical stuff" and by "spiritual", he means "non-physical stuff" is an error that throws us off track. And we have our Greek Platonic heritage to thank for this - introducing a distinction between the "physical" and the "non-physical" that was never there for Paul.

But Paul is clear in Romans 8 - the creation - physical stuff - will indeed be liberated from its bondage to decay and be the eternal home of the physically resurrected saints.

So, for Paul, the "physical" does indeed inherit the kingdom of God. God did not make junk when he made cosmos - including us - as physical. He is engaged in a long and costly plan of redemption for it all. Our eternal life will indeed be "physical", albeit a transformed physicality - just like for Jesus.

Do you not believe in the resurrection of the body? If you do, then you really must believe that "physical stuff" indeed does inherit the kingdom.

I believe we will have resurrection bodies that will not be in the same state as we know them to be at this point. Paul mentions in his epistles that these resurrection bodies are different than the physical bodies we now possess.

dan p
Aug 20th 2008, 07:01 PM
In Acts 1:6, the disciples ask Jesus , wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN ( NOTICE THIS WORD RESTORE AGAIN ) THE kINGDOM to Isreal ? There a lot of verse showing that Isreal will be restored to the LAND by 2 covenants, the Davidic Covanant which means that Chrsit will sit on David Thrones and the Palestinian Covenant means that they will be restored to their Land . So there is going to be the 1000 yr reign of Christ.

Ephesians 2:6 says , And hath raised US up togther , and MADE us sit TOGETHER in heAVENLY places IN Christ Jesus. The tense of the verb SIT TOGETHER is in the past tense ( the aorist tense ) which means that in the mind of God, this seating has already been done. At this time our Lord is seated at right hand of God Eph 1:20, and since we are going to be seated with Him, we also are going to be seated at the right hand of God in the throne room of God. It is a higher position than the angels have , for the right hand of God is above them Eph1:21. So I believe that we are going to heaven bound and NOT earthBOUND.

9Marksfan
Aug 20th 2008, 11:03 PM
Then how does one account for Jesus saying "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?"

That's a poor translation - it really means "among you" - because Jesus was demonstrating the kingdom's power and authority among them (and I'm NOT a Kingdom Now believer!).

Friend of I AM
Aug 21st 2008, 03:17 PM
That's a poor translation - it really means "among you" - because Jesus was demonstrating the kingdom's power and authority among them (and I'm NOT a Kingdom Now believer!).

Well I don't know. I think when he states it's not something that they can see coming, he is being pretty frank about it. He also warns them to not go to anyone saying "here he is..or there it is.." before making the statement. I don't think the kingdom coming into it's fullness is something that is going to be completely visible to man. Think flash of lightning. It will happen in the blink of an eye. Thanks for your input though.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Aug 21st 2008, 03:35 PM
I was perhaps incomplete in what I have recently posted. I do indeed agree that while there is a sense in which the Kingdom is here right now, we indeed still await the final great, dramatic, and obvious inbreaking of that Kingdom, an event that clearly still lies in the future.

So while Jesus has already been installed as king, He is, for the present, "absent" from us in a way - He is not here in person. But that does not mean He is not King. And I suggest that when Jesus says "the Kingdom of God is within you", He is saying that we who are redeemed have been given the Holy Spirit and are in the position to act in His absence as agents to work for the implementation of His Kingdom.

But, and I want to be clear about this, we are not able to fully "build the Kingdom" ourselves. There will still be a climactic future event where God fully restores creation and brings His Kingship into clear and obvious presence.

But in the meantime, we (the church) have the Holy Spirit and can and should be a "foretaste" or "firstfruit" of that future.

If he's not here living through us, than how does he reign over all right now?

drew
Aug 21st 2008, 03:53 PM
If he's not here living through us, than how does he reign over all right now?
Perhaps my previous post was unclear - I believe that He is indeed "living through us", not least through the real presence of the Holy Spirit.

So the Kingdom is here now, but it will be more fully realized in the future.

Friend of I AM
Aug 21st 2008, 03:58 PM
Perhaps my previous post was unclear - I believe that He is indeed "living through us", not least through the real presence of the Holy Spirit.

So the Kingdom is here now, but it will be more fully realized in the future.

Okay. Well I'm going to have to disagree with you on how well we will be able to fully discern it. I don't think God's coming will be something we can really fully realize, and it will be more or less instantaneous. Thanks for your input though. God bless in Christ.

John146
Aug 21st 2008, 04:34 PM
That's a poor translation - it really means "among you" - because Jesus was demonstrating the kingdom's power and authority among them (and I'm NOT a Kingdom Now believer!).Agree. Otherwise, Jesus would have been saying the kingdom was within the ones He was talking to, the Pharisees! :eek:

Friend of I AM
Aug 21st 2008, 04:42 PM
Agree. Otherwise, Jesus would have been saying the kingdom was within the ones He was talking to, the Pharisees! :eek:

But he was speaking to his disciples in his testimony..the Pharisees were not his disciples....remember he had already called them sons of the devil.

John146
Aug 21st 2008, 06:55 PM
But he was speaking to his disciples in his testimony..the Pharisees were not his disciples....remember he had already called them sons of the devil.Read carefully:

Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He was clearly speaking to the Pharisees. The Greek word translated as "within" in the KJV is "entos" (Strong's 1787) and means:

1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
b) within you i.e. your soul

So, it can mean "in the midst of you" and that's how I believe it is used in that verse. Certainly, the kingdom of God was not within the Pharisees, but it was among or in the midst of them in the person of Christ as well as His disciples.

I believe the NASB has a better translation in this case:

Luke 17
20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

9Marksfan
Aug 21st 2008, 09:26 PM
Well I don't know. I think when he states it's not something that they can see coming, he is being pretty frank about it. He also warns them to not go to anyone saying "here he is..or there it is.." before making the statement. I don't think the kingdom coming into it's fullness is something that is going to be completely visible to man. Think flash of lightning. It will happen in the blink of an eye.

I agree with all these things - as the KJV puts it so wonderfully "The kingdom cometh not with observation".


Thanks for your input though.

No probs - I do believe that the kingdom of God starts in our hearts, but the context there (and the normal use of the Greek word) favours "among".


In Christ,

Stephen

Excellent! My middle name! May we both receive crowns from the King of Kings! :)

9Marksfan
Aug 21st 2008, 09:27 PM
Agree. Otherwise, Jesus would have been saying the kingdom was within the ones He was talking to, the Pharisees! :eek:

Excellent point!

chal
Aug 21st 2008, 10:59 PM
Then how does one account for Jesus saying "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?"

chal> For your consideration;

The Coming of the Kingdom

Luke 17:20 Now59 at one point60 the Pharisees61 asked Jesus62 when the kingdom of God63 was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs64 to be observed, 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is65 in your midst.”66 -NET Bible

66tn This is a far better translation than “in you.” Jesus would never tell the hostile Pharisees that the kingdom was inside them. The reference is to Jesus present in their midst. He brings the kingdom. Another possible translation would be “in your grasp.” For further discussion and options, see D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1414-19.

Emanate
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:56 AM
But he was speaking to his disciples in his testimony..the Pharisees were not his disciples....remember he had already called them sons of the devil.


Some of the Pharisees followed Him.

9Marksfan
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:34 AM
Some of the Pharisees followed Him.

Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea are the only ones we know of for sure - the vast majority rejected Him - especially those he was speaking to at that time. The context makes it clear that entos means "in your midst".

Friend of I AM
Aug 23rd 2008, 07:38 PM
Read carefully:

Luke 17
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He was clearly speaking to the Pharisees. The Greek word translated as "within" in the KJV is "entos" (Strong's 1787) and means:

1) within, inside
a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
b) within you i.e. your soul

So, it can mean "in the midst of you" and that's how I believe it is used in that verse. Certainly, the kingdom of God was not within the Pharisees, but it was among or in the midst of them in the person of Christ as well as His disciples.

I believe the NASB has a better translation in this case:

Luke 17
20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Here'e the passage in it's complete context taken from the NIV

Luke 17:20-25
The Coming of the Kingdom of God

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Without getting into an exstensive eytomological discussion, I'm going to have to agree with you that probably a better translation was in Strong's and the NASB with the words "in your midst." The NIV also has a notation in it that references some translations using the words "amongst you."

That being stated...who is amongst him that represents the Kingdom of Heaven? We can see the answer to this question with verse 22 as he then only adresses his disciples..and not the Pharisees. Both were baffled by Jesus's response, as they believed the Kingdom of God was something that would be easily discerned by human eyes.

Jesus also illustrates the inability of one being able to discern the coming of his kingdom, when speaking to the Samaritan woman in John 4:21-24.

John 4:21-24
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

That being stated, I don't think the fullness of the kingdom will be observed by the human eye..again think "flash of lightening." God bless in Christ. Stephen