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manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 03:55 AM
Have you ever been lied to about anything regarding a former theological belief and doctrine?


Has something that you have been taught by a pastor or denomination ever been proven to be untrue?
I use to believe that everyone had to speak in tongues in order to prove that they were saved. I was taught this by my denomination.

I use to believe that people who got water sprinkled were going to hell because they did not get immersed into the water.

I use to believe that women could not teach at church but women can teach at church as evident by the gift. I still believe they should not pastor unless they pastor alongside of their husband.

There are lot more lies that I had to turn my back on. What about you?

Emanate
Aug 19th 2008, 04:45 AM
When I was a child in a West Texas pentecostal church I was taught in sunday school that our names were written in the book of life. Whenever we sinned it was erased. Repentance put our name back in the book. We were also warned that when paper constantly has an eraser on it, the paper eventually tears and your name can no longer be written down.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 06:06 AM
The whole WOF healing thing - I was told I killed my Dad because I didn't have enough faith for God to heal him. That little phrase cost me my faith and about 10 years of my life.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:16 AM
Have you ever been lied to about anything regarding a former theological belief and doctrine?


They weren't lying to you, they were just teaching you the man made doctrines and traditions of their denomination, instead of the Word of God in the original manuscript languages.

Every church on the planet teaches one form or another several or more man made doctrines and traditions. They are not lying to anybody, they just don't understand scripture very well because they would rather hold to their man made doctrines, instead of holding to the Word of God. It's done in ignorance, not malicious lying.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 06:29 AM
They weren't lying to you, they were just teaching you the man made doctrines and traditions of their denomination, instead of the Word of God in the original manuscript languages.

Every church on the planet teaches one form or another several or more man made doctrines and traditions. They are not lying to anybody, they just don't understand scripture very well because they would rather hold to their man made doctrines, instead of holding to the Word of God. It's done in ignorance, not malicious lying.

I consider it still a lie even if it is done in ignorance. People spread lies unaware all the time. I believe all false or bad doctrine started with someone way down the line purposely proof texting the Scripture.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:41 AM
I consider it still a lie even if it is done in ignorance. People spread lies unaware all the time. I believe all false or bad doctrine started with someone way down the line purposely proof texting the Scripture.

I don't think the condition of their hearts is to lie to anybody, they think they are telling the truth, even though they are not. If I was told by my mother that my father was a guy named Joe(my father's name is not Joe), and then I told other people my father was a guy named Joe, would I be lying? In theory, yes. But the condition of my heart would not be to lie, because I was told by my mother that Joe was my father, even though he is not. I was just telling people what my mother told me, and I thought my mother knew what she was talking about.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 07:38 AM
I don't think the condition of their hearts is to lie to anybody, they think they are telling the truth, even though they are not. If I was told by my mother that my father was a guy named Joe(my father's name is not Joe), and then I told other people my father was a guy named Joe, would I be lying? In theory, yes. But the condition of my heart would not be to lie, because I was told by my mother that Joe was my father, even though he is not. I was just telling people what my mother told me, and I thought my mother knew what she was talking about.

True indeed, but there is something about suspicion that people usually do not do anything about. I am guilty of this myself. I go alone to get alone sometime.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 07:46 AM
I don't think the condition of their hearts is to lie to anybody, they think they are telling the truth, even though they are not. If I was told by my mother that my father was a guy named Joe(my father's name is not Joe), and then I told other people my father was a guy named Joe, would I be lying? In theory, yes. But the condition of my heart would not be to lie, because I was told by my mother that Joe was my father, even though he is not. I was just telling people what my mother told me, and I thought my mother knew what she was talking about.


I ask my mother what will here church do when the enemy tells them that they can no longer attend church in their building. She said, she guess they will have to meet at home. I ask her who organize such fellowships and communities. She said those who know how to do this and are prepared for this. I said bingo............ So I said how much confusion will be caused by a mega church like Lakewood being scattered without prior organization. She said that a lot of people would be lose and looking for a means of help and support. So I ask her who would be the ones that look to for help. She just look at her son who she wonders why he has not started a church yet in an actual building. I said I did not understand until this year myself. I simply never wanted to be a hireling or put up with expense of taking care of building and not the people.

9Marksfan
Aug 19th 2008, 09:02 AM
I posted "Maybe" because of the discussion between the OP and Ron Brown about lying bing intentional. I think that a lot of us embrace beliefs which suit us - and in particular duit our sinful lifestyles - although we know deep down that these things aren't biblical - or at least aren't QUITE right. Two examples in my situation are that I was told as a young believer that, once we are Christians, sin is outside of us - I learned shortly afterwards from the Scriptures - and by sad experience - that that isn't true - but it suited that friend to think that way. I also heard - and keep hearing - that if people turn their backs on Christ after professing faith - even after many years - and go back to the world, denying Christ, hating God and living for self - that they will simply lose their reward on the last day and be ashamed at Christ's coming - but they'll still be saved because of a one-time so called "decison for Christ" (they wrongly cite 1 Cor 3:15 in support of this but forget that everyone in that passage was building on the foundation of Christ - backsliders do not build at all).

I think this is the biggest lie that has ever been foisted on people in modern times by the so-called "evangelical" church and is the reason why we have such indifference to discipleship in so many churches - and so many "lukewarm" people. It's very easy to see how convenient it is for people to believe such a lie - that the way they live is irrelevant to their eternal standing. Scripture teaches that the way we live PROVES what our eternal destination is going to be!

Rullion Green
Aug 19th 2008, 11:37 AM
Yes i was a catholic for 32 years.

I wont list all the lies....the keys on my keyboard are worn out enough.

divaD
Aug 19th 2008, 12:57 PM
They weren't lying to you, they were just teaching you the man made doctrines and traditions of their denomination, instead of the Word of God in the original manuscript languages.

Every church on the planet teaches one form or another several or more man made doctrines and traditions. They are not lying to anybody, they just don't understand scripture very well because they would rather hold to their man made doctrines, instead of holding to the Word of God. It's done in ignorance, not malicious lying.



Hi ron. This is the way you as a finite being reasons this. And I agree with you, these things are done out of ignorance. But the question is, does God see it this way also? Isn't lying still lying, whether intentional or not?
And what about when others bring to the attention that some are spreading untruths, but they continue to spread these untruths irregardless of the fact that they have been proven to be in error according to what is actually written in the Word of God? Aren't they pretty much calling the one trying to correct them a liar, since they refuse to accept the truth that is right there in plain sight, but hold on to their untruths instead?

Just like the analogy you gave of your mother telling you that your father's name was Joe, even tho it wasn't, and you unintentionally passing this untruth along to others.
But what happens when one tries to correct this untruth, but you refuse to believe it, thus you then keep passing off your father's name as Joe? Can we now say that you are still doing this out of ignorance of the truth? What it all boils down to, if the above situation were true, you are showing that you trust no one but the one who told you the untruth in the first place.

Now apply this to a Christian that has been taught many untruths by their denoms. If they continue in these untruths even tho they have been corrected by the Word of God, they are showing that they have more faith in what their denom claims the Word of God to be, than what the Word of God actually is. IOW, they're listening to man, not the Spirit of God.

Don't you think at some point, ignorance can no longer be an acceptable excuse?

SpokenFor
Aug 19th 2008, 02:05 PM
Ultimately we are all held accountable for believing the lies, even if they are told to us without malice, because we are all to be praying and studying the Word ourselves. Too many of us (I'll include myself because I really need to get better at this..) simply listen to the sermon on Sunday morning and take that for being God's message to us that week, without double checking the scriptures and seeking God's face.


Yeah, I was lied to a lot growing up. My folks were involved in the Charismatic wave of the late 70's/early 80's that involved a lot of Word-Faith folks. I don't remember being told that you weren't saved if you didn't speak in tongues, but there was a heavy emphasis on that (with several "tongues" with/without interpretation given each service). I don't fault my folks because they honestly felt they were getting the "Full Gospel".

I was told as a child (and again just recently) that God did not heal my epilepsy because I do not have enough faith. :o

Sold Out
Aug 19th 2008, 02:29 PM
Have you ever been lied to about anything regarding a former theological belief and doctrine?


Has something that you have been taught by a pastor or denomination ever been proven to be untrue?


Yes I have. About 15 yrs ago, my mom (who got saved & baptized in an Assemblies of God church) expressed interest in joining the Baptist church that my husband and I attended. When I spoke to the pastor about her, he asked if she had been baptized. I said yes, right after she got saved, in the AOG church. He said she couldn't join the church unless she got baptized in a BAPTIST church! At that time I was ashamedly illiterate in the Bible, so I just relayed the information to my mom. She told me that having to be baptized again was absolutely ridiculous and she refused to join. She has never joined a church since then.

It wasn't until a few years after leaving that church that I learned he had made a huge mistake by telling me that. No where in scripture does it say we have to be baptized in a certain denomination to join a church.

divaD
Aug 19th 2008, 03:04 PM
I was told as a child (and again just recently) that God did not heal my epilepsy because I do not have enough faith. :o



It is really sad that this has to be one of the excuses that others use on you when a healing doesn't occur. Here's something to consider. The NT records several people being raised from the dead. Perhaps you could ask those that claim your faith just wasn't strong enough, how these people were raised from the dead? Obviously a dead person can't have faith that someone is going to raise him/her from the dead, right? And let's not confuse this with Christ being raised from the dead. This is not the same thing I'm referring to. When Christ was raised from the dead, He stayed raised from the dead.

And what about the certain lame man, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple? He wasn't even looking to be healed, yet he was healed anyway.


It's pretty clear to me, that the healings and the miracles we see recorded in the NT, these were for signs, and they were only used during those times, and these signs are not still occuring today. This is why you haven't been healed. It has nothing to do with your faith or lack thereof.

Bethany67
Aug 19th 2008, 05:04 PM
Ultimately we are all held accountable for believing the lies, even if they are told to us without malice, because we are all to be praying and studying the Word ourselves. Too many of us (I'll include myself because I really need to get better at this..) simply listen to the sermon on Sunday morning and take that for being God's message to us that week, without double checking the scriptures and seeking God's face.

Yes, absolutely - they couldn't have so deceived and devastated me if I hadn't bought into the 'package.'

crawfish
Aug 19th 2008, 05:04 PM
I consider it still a lie even if it is done in ignorance. People spread lies unaware all the time. I believe all false or bad doctrine started with someone way down the line purposely proof texting the Scripture.

I'm guessing this makes nearly every single Christian a liar in some way. And I'm not sure that the "nearly" part is just optimism on my part.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:33 PM
Ultimately we are all held accountable for believing the lies, even if they are told to us without malice, because we are all to be praying and studying the Word ourselves. Too many of us (I'll include myself because I really need to get better at this..) simply listen to the sermon on Sunday morning and take that for being God's message to us that week, without double checking the scriptures and seeking God's face.


Problem is, that most Christians don't study the Bible for themselves, and they just rely on what their church tells them about the Bible.

This is why the believe the lies in ignorance, and not in rebellion to God's word.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 05:38 PM
Problem is, that most Christians don't study the Bible for themselves, and they just rely on what their church tells them about the Bible.

This is why the believe the lies in ignorance, and not in rebellion to God's word.

I think what he is trying to say is that God still does not ignore ignorance, why because some believe God also judges people for what they could have known. Basically, some tried to introduce the truth but they rejected it. Sort of like the man who dies in his sins as an unbeliever. He will say that he did not know, but he will not be able to say that he did not have a chance to know. Even if he ran accross a christian once who tried to testify of the Messiah Yeshua to him. It states someone where that God will not over look ignorance.

theBelovedDisciple
Aug 19th 2008, 06:02 PM
I answered 'yes'..

many times.. too many too list..

"Light' and "Truth" expose lies and 'half -truths' and the way these are exposed is to have the Son living in your heart and being grounded in the Word... led by the Spirit of Truth. Having the Word of God 'hid' in your heart..... like a deep well spring that can be tapped into when trouble or the spirit of error comes a knockin....

If the Son sets you free you are 'free indeed'.. and the Truth will set you free.. for Jesus the Christ is the Way. the "Truth" and the Life...

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:12 PM
I think what he is trying to say is that God still does not ignore ignorance, why because some believe God also judges people for what they could have known. Basically, some tried to introduce the truth but they rejected it.

I agree with you, but I'm playing the advocacy card when it comes to secondary doctrine, just to get other people's input.

My father and I get into discussions all the time about secondary doctrine. He says a denomination's secondary doctrine is not important, only the primary gospel of Christ is important. I say that both primary salvation doctrine is important, as well as secondary doctrine being very important as well. My father comes from a pentecostal background, and though he is no longer a pentecostal, he still believes that their messed up secondary doctrine is no big deal because they have the salvation message correct. I tell him that their secondary doctrine is a big deal, because it is not backed up by the scriptures in the original manuscript languages, or even the English language.

So, how inportant is secondary doctrine to Christian growth?

Friend of I AM
Aug 19th 2008, 07:07 PM
Have you ever been lied to about anything regarding a former theological belief and doctrine?


Has something that you have been taught by a pastor or denomination ever been proven to be untrue?
I use to believe that everyone had to speak in tongues in order to prove that they were saved. I was taught this by my denomination.

I use to believe that people who got water sprinkled were going to hell because they did not get immersed into the water.

I use to believe that women could not teach at church but women can teach at church as evident by the gift. I still believe they should not pastor unless they pastor alongside of their husband.

There are lot more lies that I had to turn my back on. What about you?

I wouldn't say lied as per say, more or less misinformed by those who were blind. I study a lot on my own now, and use the Holy Spirit as a tutor. I think we all need to go to our prayer/study closet at some point in life..leaving the comforts of the temple/church, and go out and get to know God on a more personal level than what we've grown up with learning. Think of Abraham, Lot, and the early patriarchs. They had no real place of worship but were considered men after God's own heart. I think those times in the desert of life, are those times when we can grow closest to God, and truly get a better understanding of the scriptures.

manichunter
Aug 19th 2008, 07:13 PM
I wouldn't say lied as per say, more or less misinformed by those who were blind. I study a lot on my own now, and use the Holy Spirit as a tutor. I think we all need to go to our prayer/study closet at some point in life..leaving the comforts of the temple/church, and go out and get to know God on a more personal level than what we've grown up with learning. Think of Abraham, Lot, and the early patriarchs. They had no real place of worship but were considered men after God's own heart. I think those times in the desert of life, are those times when we can grow closest to God, and truly get a better understanding of the scriptures.

But upon their first opportunity to respond to God, Abraham, Noah and Moses responded. Noah was already a preacher of righteousness. Abraham rejected the pagan research of his father before God called him. Moses already knew Yahweh as the God of his people, but not his personal God until the bush. He learn of Him from Abraham's descendants Midianites through Keturah. The priest of the Midianites worshipped Yahweh. These were the people who taught Moses what His people had forgot in Egypt.

Friend of I AM
Aug 19th 2008, 07:21 PM
But upon their first opportunity to respond to God, Abraham, Noah and Moses responded. Noah was already a preacher of righteousness. Abraham rejected the pagan research of his father before God called him. Moses already knew Yahweh as the God of his people, but not his personal God until the bush. He learn of Him from Abraham's descendants Midianites through Keturah. The priest of the Midianites worshipped Yahweh. These were the people who taught Moses what His people had forgot in Egypt.

Oh I agree with all of the above...people respond in different ways. We do our best by the grace of God to respond to whatever call we've been given. All of the guys above were given instructions and spoke to God directly, and I think it's really good to wait for that direct call from God like these guys did above. Too many people out there saying "I've been called to do this" and really go out doing things on nothing more than a whim and a stomachache/flu like symptoms that they often interperet as the Holy Spirit talking to them. This leads to many more blind people going out to lead blind people and whatnot..and as you can see this leads to all of the confusing/misinformed doctrines we've abounded in today.

Lo-Lo
Aug 19th 2008, 10:30 PM
You all have no idea how this thread "hits" home. I believed in so many untruths because I believed adults to tell me the truth when it came to God. I was raised never to pray for my needs - only in emergency. That we only have a set amount of "yes prayers" so save them :B . Yup, there is more but you get the drift. It wasnt until I really received Christ as my Savior(yes, I was one of those that thought they were saved as a child and was not) that I even picked up the Bible and learned what an incrediable God we have ! I cling to scripture and still not know all that I need to know. At least my children will not have blinders on and will know the truth and run from the deceived.

:D