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Partaker of Christ
Aug 20th 2008, 11:30 PM
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL our sins, past, present and future, or just our past sins?

Some say that only our past sins are forgiven, and that If (as Christians) we sin, we are separated from God.

We know from scripture that the Law demands, the wages for sin is death. So, if Jesus paid that wage through His death, how can we then be separated?

According to the Law, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth is justice. Two eyes for an eye, is unjust.
If the price has been paid, then justice has been done. Can the Law demand the payment twice for the same wrong?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 20th 2008, 11:48 PM
He died for ALL sins but we are only forgiven of our past sins. At the very moment you believe all of the sins commited up to that point are forgiven...past sins. I say past because when you are saved past and present sins are forgiven thus becoming past sins. Future sins can be forgiven with repentance but it is not possible to pre-repent for sins that we haven't committed yet.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 21st 2008, 12:05 AM
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL our sins, past, present and future, or just our past sins?Keep in mind that, at the time of the crucifixion, all of our sins were yet future.
Some say that only our past sins are forgiven, and that If (as Christians) we sin, we are separated from God.What does "separated from God" mean?
We know from scripture that the Law demands, the wages for sin is death. So, if Jesus paid that wage through His death, how can we then be separated?That's my thought. :yes:
According to the Law, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth is justice. Two eyes for an eye, is unjust.
If the price has been paid, then justice has been done. Can the Law demand the payment twice for the same wrong?See, the whole thing about what you're discussing here is so subjective as to defy any objectivity. If we are "separated from God", then how are we supposed to know we are, considering that some of our sins are committed unintentionally, how many times are we allowed to "come back", and what if we just happen to be unlucky enough to die when we're in between periods of having "come back"? The whole thing is just chaos.

If we're truly saved, all of our sins were paid for - past, present, and future. If we allow some area of sin to control our life, then we need to get it dealt with, because it will hamper our ability to live as effective Christians, but it will not cost us our destination in Heaven. End of story.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 21st 2008, 12:06 AM
He died for ALL sins but we are only forgiven of our past sins. At the very moment you believe all of the sins commited up to that point are forgiven...past sins. I say past because when you are saved past and present sins are forgiven thus becoming past sins. Future sins can be forgiven with repentance but it is not possible to pre-repent for sins that we haven't committed yet.So every time I commit a new sin I'm unforgiven and am re-routed to hell until I "repent"? That's hogwash.

RogerW
Aug 21st 2008, 12:14 AM
He died for ALL sins but we are only forgiven of our past sins. At the very moment you believe all of the sins commited up to that point are forgiven...past sins. I say past because when you are saved past and present sins are forgiven thus becoming past sins. Future sins can be forgiven with repentance but it is not possible to pre-repent for sins that we haven't committed yet.

You are making repentance a qualification for salvation, but Scripture does not.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Blessings,
RW

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 12:21 AM
So every time I commit a new sin I'm unforgiven and am re-routed to hell until I "repent"? That's hogwash.

Thanks for the beautiful way you put it:P

The Bible tells us of sins one could commit and not be able to inherit the kingdom...Galatians 5.

I'll use one in your scenario. Let's say the sin you committed was adultery. If you didn't repent where would you spend eternity based on Galatians 5?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 12:26 AM
You are making repentance a qualification for salvation, but Scripture does not.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Blessings,
RW

How can you say that repentance is not part of salvation when that is exactly what John the Baptist and Jesus preached?

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 12:26 AM
He died for ALL sins but we are only forgiven of our past sins. At the very moment you believe all of the sins commited up to that point are forgiven...past sins. I say past because when you are saved past and present sins are forgiven thus becoming past sins. Future sins can be forgiven with repentance but it is not possible to pre-repent for sins that we haven't committed yet.

And what if one does not repent of that paid for sin?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 12:33 AM
And what if one does not repent of that paid for sin?

Did you see the scenario I have asked Literalist-Luke? I'll wait for his response and maybe answer both of you in one post.;)

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 12:49 AM
He died for ALL sins but we are only forgiven of our past sins. At the very moment you believe all of the sins commited up to that point are forgiven...past sins. I say past because when you are saved past and present sins are forgiven thus becoming past sins. Future sins can be forgiven with repentance but it is not possible to pre-repent for sins that we haven't committed yet.

The blood of Christ covers "ALL" sin, past, present and future.

If only past sin was forgiven, then we in the 21st century would all be going to Hell. Christ shed his blood on the cross almost 2000 years ago, so I would say 2000 years ago was in the past for sure.

No man's sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ, and Satan is not more powerful then the blood of Christ either, and to say otherwise is to trample all over the blood of Christ. Christ didn't just die for past sin, he died for "ALL" sin.

Lets look at repent in the Greek manuscript language. The Greek manuscript word used in Acts for repent is "metanoeo." It means to change one's mind for the better over their past sins.

So as you can see, "repent" is not asking for forgiveness of your sins, it's changing your mind about past sins. Most people confuse repenting for asking for forgiveness, because they dont even know what repent means.

Repenting is not asking for forgiveness of sin, it's changing your mind over your past sin. Big difference.

historyb
Aug 21st 2008, 12:49 AM
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL our sins, past, present and future, or just our past sins?

Some say that only our past sins are forgiven, and that If (as Christians) we sin, we are separated from God.

We know from scripture that the Law demands, the wages for sin is death. So, if Jesus paid that wage through His death, how can we then be separated?

According to the Law, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth is justice. Two eyes for an eye, is unjust.
If the price has been paid, then justice has been done. Can the Law demand the payment twice for the same wrong?


This is my take on it, Christ died for Original Sin and when Christ calls us and we respond that debt is wiped clean the bridge to God is in place. After we are saved and we sin then we can seek repentance and know that God will forgive us because of Christ death because all sin stems from Original Sin.

I believe though if we don't repentant then the sin is not forgiven, it won't keep us out of Heaven because we are already believers. The only sin that won't be forgiven is the unforgivable sin

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 12:57 AM
Thanks for the beautiful way you put it:P

The Bible tells us of sins one could commit and not be able to inherit the kingdom...Galatians 5.

I'll use one in your scenario. Let's say the sin you committed was adultery. If you didn't repent where would you spend eternity based on Galatians 5?

You say 'committed' and the word 'prasso', means to 'practice'

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Are those who are led by the Spirit of God, the same who 'practice' sin?

Nikos
Aug 21st 2008, 12:57 AM
I believe that we are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8,9) but we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4). We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) but our faith can become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20) and cease to exist (Lk. 8:13; Rom. 11:19-23). We are not under the law (Rom. 6:14,15) but if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (Rom. 8:13). Paul taught against legalism (Gal. 5:3,4) but he also taught that no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph. 5:5-7). We are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8,9) but to reap eternal life and not destruction you must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8,9). God is faithful to us (1 Jn. 1:9; 1 Cor. 10:13) but we must be faithful to him to the very end of our lives to escape the lake of fire or second death (Rev. 2:10,11). God surely loves us (Jn. 3:16; Mk. 10:21; Rom. 8:35-39) but those who inherit the kingdom of God love God (Jam 2:5; 1 Cor. 2:9) and to love God means to obey his commands (Jn. 14:15; 1 Jn. 5:3). We have freedom in Christ (Gal. 5:1) but this freedom is not to indulge the sinful nature (Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet 2:16).

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 01:00 AM
The blood of Christ covers "ALL" sin, past, present and future.

If only past sin was forgiven, then we in the 21st century would all be going to Hell. Christ shed his blood on the cross almost 2000 years ago, so I would say 2000 years ago was in the past for sure.

No man's sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ, and Satan is not more powerful then the blood of Christ either, and to say otherwise is to trample all over the blood of Christ. Christ didn't just die for past sin, he died for "ALL" sin.

Lets look at repent in the Greek manuscript language. The Greek manuscript word used in Acts for repent is "metanoeo." It means to change one's mind for the better over their past sins.

So as you can see, "repent" is not asking for forgiveness of your sins, it's changing your mind about past sins. Most people confuse repenting for asking for forgiveness, because they dont even know what repent means.

Repenting is not asking for forgiveness of sin, it's changing your mind over your past sin. Big difference.

:pp

Amen Ron!

RogerW
Aug 21st 2008, 01:06 AM
The blood of Christ covers "ALL" sin, past, present and future.

If only past sin was forgiven, then we in the 21st century would all be going to Hell. Christ shed his blood on the cross almost 2000 years ago, so I would say 2000 years ago was in the past for sure.

No man's sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ, and Satan is not more powerful then the blood of Christ either, and to say otherwise is to trample all over the blood of Christ. Christ didn't just die for past sin, he died for "ALL" sin.

Lets look at repent in the Greek manuscript language. The Greek manuscript word used in Acts for repent is "metanoeo." It means to change one's mind for the better over their past sins.

So as you can see, "repent" is not asking for forgiveness of your sins, it's changing your mind about past sins. Most people confuse repenting for asking for forgiveness, because they dont even know what repent means.

Repenting is not asking for forgiveness of sin, it's changing your mind over your past sin. Big difference.


:pp

Amen Ron!

Ditto - Amen Ron!

Nikos
Aug 21st 2008, 01:14 AM
Although it is true that the act of salvation is by God's Grace alone and "not of works lest any man should boast". (Eph. 2:9) A study of Scripture shows that repentance is found through out the Bible as antecedent to salvation.

Repentance mens to turn around or to change our mind about sin. Man with his free will must make a decision to come to Christ with a repentant heart. We must turn away from sin and serve Christ. This is so important that the Bible says that we will all perish if we don't repent. Luke 13:3

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 01:17 AM
Although it is true that the act of salvation is by God's Grace alone and "not of works lest any man should boast". (Eph. 2:9) A study of Scripture shows that repentance is found through out the Bible as antecedent to salvation.

Repentance mens to turn around or to change our mind about sin. Man with his free will must make a decision to come to Christ with a repentant heart. We must turn away from sin and serve Christ. This is so important that the Bible says that we will all perish if we don't repent. Luke 13:3

And when you are born from above through Christ by the drawing of the Holy spirit, you just repented of your sins. You changed your mind over your past sins, and became a new creature in Christ.

Nikos
Aug 21st 2008, 01:34 AM
Repentance is not salvation. It precedes salvation. It is man making his decision to come to Christ and accept His free gift of salvation. God saves him and makes him a new creation. All his past sins are forgiven and he stands clean before God washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 01:48 AM
The blood of Christ covers "ALL" sin, past, present and future.

If only past sin was forgiven, then we in the 21st century would all be going to Hell. Christ shed his blood on the cross almost 2000 years ago, so I would say 2000 years ago was in the past for sure.

No man's sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ, and Satan is not more powerful then the blood of Christ either, and to say otherwise is to trample all over the blood of Christ. Christ didn't just die for past sin, he died for "ALL" sin.

Lets look at repent in the Greek manuscript language. The Greek manuscript word used in Acts for repent is "metanoeo." It means to change one's mind for the better over their past sins.

So as you can see, "repent" is not asking for forgiveness of your sins, it's changing your mind about past sins. Most people confuse repenting for asking for forgiveness, because they dont even know what repent means.

Repenting is not asking for forgiveness of sin, it's changing your mind over your past sin. Big difference.

Jesus' sacriifce was for all sin (past, present, future). Does it pay for those who don't accept Him? You would answer no unless you believe that ALL will go to Heaven. Then the time frame of His sacrifice doesn't matter. Your and my clock started ticking when we gave our life to the Lord. At that moment every sin that we had committed was exposed...past and present sin. Then we accepted Christ as Lord those sins were put under the blood thus making them past sins. No where in the Bible does it say in context that we are forgiven of our past, present, and future sins. However 2 Peter tells us a scenario where some had forgotten they were purged from their past sins.

I agree with your definition of "repent" and I'll post the whole thing...

3340 μετανοέω [metanoeo /met·an·o·eh·o/] v (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1757310#_ftn1). From 3326 and 3539; TDNT (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1757310#_ftn2) 4:975; TDNTA (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1757310#_ftn3) 636; GK (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1757310#_ftn4) 3566; 34 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1757310#_ftn5) translates as “repent” 34 times. 1 to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent. 2 to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins.

If one truly repents of an active sin then immediately it becomes a past sin. The Lord will remember no more and it will not be held against you thus it is in the past. Repentance is part of confession and forgiveness. The Bible tells us in order to be forgiven of our sins we must confess our sins...1 John. They go hand in hand. For a true confession there must be a true repentance and true repentance will be a true confession.

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 01:53 AM
Repentance is not salvation.

True. But you don't come to Christ without repenting either. Christ tells us this in Luke chapter 13. Peter says this in Acts 2:38. And Luke tells us this in Acts 3:19.

The Holy Spirit draws a man to Christ by convicting him that he is a sinner in need of a savior in Christ Jesus, and then a man repents(changes his mind) about his past sins, and asks jesus Christ into his life as his Lord, savior, and master, thus becoming a new creature in Christ. Repentance works hand in hand with salvation.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 01:54 AM
You say 'committed' and the word 'prasso', means to 'practice'

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Are those who are led by the Spirit of God, the same who 'practice' sin?

If you want to insert practice that's fine...the question still remains.

To answer your question...no but that doesn't mean that they never were led by the Spirit of God at some point.

I would like to see your answer to the question I asked LL. Also I would like to know if it is possible for a believer to sin?

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 02:20 AM
Also I would like to know if it is possible for a believer to sin?

Believers sin sometimes, but their sins are covered by the blood of Christ. Christians are not sin free, they are freed from their sins.

Nikos
Aug 21st 2008, 03:05 AM
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Ron Brown
Aug 21st 2008, 03:10 AM
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Great scripture.

Christians are not to sin, but if they do, they have an advocate to the Father in Christ Jesus. We don't gain eternal life by refraining from sin, we gain eternal life through the atonement of the blood of Christ.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 11:58 AM
Believers sin sometimes, but their sins are covered by the blood of Christ. Christians are not sin free, they are freed from their sins.


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


Great scripture.

Christians are not to sin, but if they do, they have an advocate to the Father in Christ Jesus. We don't gain eternal life by refraining from sin, we gain eternal life through the atonement of the blood of Christ.

So we all agree that the PLAN is for us NOT to sin. If you go up just a few verses above the one you are quoting you will see that John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tells us that "IF" we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. So what happens IF we don't confess our sins? Will He still forgive us our sins IF we DON'T confess? If He does still forgive us then why would John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tell us that it is on the condition that we confess that we will be forgiven? Surely, the Holy Ghost wouldn't be wrong.

Now it also tells us that He will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Then how can a believer still commit unrighteousness if we have been cleansed from it? There is more to it than a once covered everything will be OK belief. The only way a believer can commit sin is to be out of the will of God. For His plan is that we don't sin by the verse you quoted. So when we sin we are out of His plan. His plan is that we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as we walk in the Spirit there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. Can the Spirit sin? Of course not. So IF while we sin we are away from the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit then there must be some course of action for us to be able to return to our walk with the Spirit and that is through confession and repentance.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 12:26 PM
If you want to insert practice that's fine...the question still remains.

It is not what 'I' insert. The word 'IS' [prasso]


To answer your question...no but that doesn't mean that they never were led by the Spirit of God at some point.

But what about:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


I would like to see your answer to the question I asked LL. Also I would like to know if it is possible for a believer to sin?

Of course a believer can sin, but do they 'prasso' sin?
Do they 'live' after the flesh?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Nikos
Aug 21st 2008, 12:42 PM
I have listed just seven verses that are very good examples of being able to give up your eternal salvation.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, "I have come to know Him", and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

As you can see there are a great many verses in the Bible that refer to the believer being able to voluntarily walk away from the Lord, to take up once again that sinful life, and become unsaved. However I think the verse that hits home the hardest is the following.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 12:47 PM
It is not what 'I' insert. The word 'IS' [prasso]



But what about:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.



Of course a believer can sin, but do they 'prasso' sin?
Do they 'live' after the flesh?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I have no problem with practice and I understand that is what it means but the issue I have with that is where do you draw the line in the sand? Does 2 times constitute practicing? Or is it 3 times? Or 4? 5? I believe it is unrepented "active" sin that gets us in trouble whether we say commit or practice its the same.

I believe my response to Ron Brown will cover the other part of your post.

Short version...Yes, as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Quench or grieve the Spirit and you are out of the will of the Spirit and that is when you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

If we can sin after crucifying the flesh then did we really crucify it? Or did we crucify it and turn our back on the thing that gave us the ability to crucify it in the first place...Jesus Christ? Have we returned to the wallowing in the mire? IF we are in active and unrepented sin, we have.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 12:50 PM
So we all agree that the PLAN is for us NOT to sin. If you go up just a few verses above the one you are quoting you will see that John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tells us that "IF" we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. So what happens IF we don't confess our sins? Will He still forgive us our sins IF we DON'T confess? If He does still forgive us then why would John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tell us that it is on the condition that we confess that we will be forgiven? Surely, the Holy Ghost wouldn't be wrong.

If we do not confess, we will suffer rebuke and chastisment, but this does not effect 'kinship'

When Jesus spoke about having an issue with your brother, He said 'leave your gift at the alter, go sort it out, and then come back and offer that gift.

Matt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
Matt 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

How painful it can be, when you offer a gift to the one you love, and it gets refused (remember Cain)


Now it also tells us that He will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Then how can a believer still commit unrighteousness if we have been cleansed from it? There is more to it than a once covered everything will be OK belief. The only way a believer can commit sin is to be out of the will of God. For His plan is that we don't sin by the verse you quoted. So when we sin we are out of His plan. His plan is that we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as we walk in the Spirit there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. Can the Spirit sin? Of course not. So IF while we sin we are away from the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit then there must be some course of action for us to be able to return to our walk with the Spirit and that is through confession and repentance.

What do you mean by 'we are away' from the Spirit?

Do we not need the Spirit to convince us (our conscience) of that sin?

Puritan
Aug 21st 2008, 12:54 PM
It is the will of the Father, that all that He has given the Son, that the Son will lose none. Jesus will not lose one of His sheep. Not one will perish. Salvation is of the Lord, not man.

Instrument
Aug 21st 2008, 12:57 PM
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL our sins, past, present and future, or just our past sins?

Some say that only our past sins are forgiven, and that If (as Christians) we sin, we are separated from God.

We know from scripture that the Law demands, the wages for sin is death. So, if Jesus paid that wage through His death, how can we then be separated?

According to the Law, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth is justice. Two eyes for an eye, is unjust.
If the price has been paid, then justice has been done. Can the Law demand the payment twice for the same wrong?

Christ died for the sin of the world. Note that the term "sin" is singular because it refers to sin "hamartía" (Greek word).

However, this sin called "hamartía" which is the sting of death, will disappear in the resurrection of flesh.

Blessings.

divaD
Aug 21st 2008, 01:06 PM
So we all agree that the PLAN is for us NOT to sin. If you go up just a few verses above the one you are quoting you will see that John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tells us that "IF" we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. So what happens IF we don't confess our sins? Will He still forgive us our sins IF we DON'T confess? If He does still forgive us then why would John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tell us that it is on the condition that we confess that we will be forgiven? Surely, the Holy Ghost wouldn't be wrong.

Now it also tells us that He will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Then how can a believer still commit unrighteousness if we have been cleansed from it? There is more to it than a once covered everything will be OK belief. The only way a believer can commit sin is to be out of the will of God. For His plan is that we don't sin by the verse you quoted. So when we sin we are out of His plan. His plan is that we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as we walk in the Spirit there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not sin. Can the Spirit sin? Of course not. So IF while we sin we are away from the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit then there must be some course of action for us to be able to return to our walk with the Spirit and that is through confession and repentance.




1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What I have to wonder then, is what we do with these verses? These verses seem to contradict almost everything we have read in 1 John up to this point.



1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But this says:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


What I have to then wonder, are we defining sin as sin is being defined here? Don't we usually define sin as smoking, drinking, cussing, cheating on spouse, etc?
How can we keep track of all of these sins that we as mankind have determined are sins? And what about the subtle sins, the sins that we may not even recognize as sin, how do we confess these? It just seems to me that perhaps we're all missing the intended msg 1 John is trying to convey?

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 01:09 PM
I have listed just seven verses that are very good examples of being able to give up your eternal salvation.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, "I have come to know Him", and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

As you can see there are a great many verses in the Bible that refer to the believer being able to voluntarily walk away from the Lord, to take up once again that sinful life, and become unsaved. However I think the verse that hits home the hardest is the following.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever

Hi Nikos!

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Tell me; if one who once loved the Lord, ends up not loving the Lord, and in your understanding (becomes unsaved), then does God lie, when He says 'all things work together for good' to those that love Him?
For that would mean that things did not work together for good, for those who at one time did love Him.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 01:26 PM
I have no problem with practice and I understand that is what it means but the issue I have with that is where do you draw the line in the sand? Does 2 times constitute practicing? Or is it 3 times? Or 4? 5? I believe it is unrepented "active" sin that gets us in trouble whether we say commit or practice its the same.

I believe my response to Ron Brown will cover the other part of your post.

Short version...Yes, as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Quench or grieve the Spirit and you are out of the will of the Spirit and that is when you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

If we can sin after crucifying the flesh then did we really crucify it? Or did we crucify it and turn our back on the thing that gave us the ability to crucify it in the first place...Jesus Christ? Have we returned to the wallowing in the mire? IF we are in active and unrepented sin, we have.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

If Christ is in us, then we have been crucified with Christ. This is something that God by the Holy Spirit has done.

God has worked this in us, and we need to work it out (recon yourselves dead)

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

'Recon' add it up, do the maths, do the accounts.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 02:16 PM
If we do not confess, we will suffer rebuke and chastisment, but this does not effect 'kinship'

When Jesus spoke about having an issue with your brother, He said 'leave your gift at the alter, go sort it out, and then come back and offer that gift.

Matt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
Matt 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

How painful it can be, when you offer a gift to the one you love, and it gets refused (remember Cain)



What do you mean by 'we are away' from the Spirit?

Do we not need the Spirit to convince us (our conscience) of that sin?

Then that rebuke and chastisement is nothing more than a superficial punishment and it benefits nothing because ultimately there are no consequences for your actions. The only real corrections are those that have consequences. If you don't have anything to lose then it doesn't matter what you do and really by your own words you are saying this very thing..."yes we can sin and we can refuse to repent but this doesn't effect our kinship"

Yes, The man HAD to go and make things right...first. He had to confess and repent of his offenses before God would even acknowledge him. So what would have happened if he never made things right with his brother? God would have never acknowledged him.


16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is what I mean by being away. If we walk in the Spirit it is not possible to sin. These 2 forces are at war with each other. When we choose to follow after the flesh then and only then will we sin. You can't be righteous in the flesh and you can't be unrighteous in the Spirit. So if at any point you do sin then that should be an alarm to you that says "HEY, I MUST NOT BE IN THE WILL OF THE SPIRIT"

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 02:24 PM
Hi Nikos!

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Tell me; if one who once loved the Lord, ends up not loving the Lord, and in your understanding (becomes unsaved), then does God lie, when He says 'all things work together for good' to those that love Him?
For that would mean that things did not work together for good, for those who at one time did love Him.

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

notice the word continuance...we must continue to do these things if we are to get eternal life.

That means they chose to go back to the world. God didn't fail them they failed theirselves but even at that while they still have breath in their bodies they can still repent and turn back to God and He will forgive their sins and cleanse them from all of their unrighteousness. The prodigal son returned home. He made the choice to come back. The father didn't send men after him. It was the son's choice.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 02:29 PM
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

If Christ is in us, then we have been crucified with Christ. This is something that God by the Holy Spirit has done.

God has worked this in us, and we need to work it out (recon yourselves dead)

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

'Recon' add it up, do the maths, do the accounts.

What a strong case for holiness! That is what Paul is telling the Romans. They don't have to be bound by sin. They are more than conquerers. They have the ability through the Spirit to overcome sin but that doesn't mean it is not possible to sin and it doesn't take away the consequences of that sin. You have agreed that it is possible to be a Christian and sin.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 02:32 PM
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What I have to wonder then, is what we do with these verses? These verses seem to contradict almost everything we have read in 1 John up to this point.



1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But this says:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


What I have to then wonder, are we defining sin as sin is being defined here? Don't we usually define sin as smoking, drinking, cussing, cheating on spouse, etc?
How can we keep track of all of these sins that we as mankind have determined are sins? And what about the subtle sins, the sins that we may not even recognize as sin, how do we confess these? It just seems to me that perhaps we're all missing the intended msg 1 John is trying to convey?

Holiness...my friend. That is the message. Without holiness no one will see the Lord. The Bible tells us what some sins are and those that do these things will not inherit the kingdom...Gal. 5

philloman
Aug 21st 2008, 02:39 PM
Keep in mind that, at the time of the crucifixion, all of our sins were yet future.What does "separated from God" mean?That's my thought. :yes:See, the whole thing about what you're discussing here is so subjective as to defy any objectivity. If we are "separated from God", then how are we supposed to know we are, considering that some of our sins are committed unintentionally, how many times are we allowed to "come back", and what if we just happen to be unlucky enough to die when we're in between periods of having "come back"? The whole thing is just chaos.

If we're truly saved, all of our sins were paid for - past, present, and future. If we allow some area of sin to control our life, then we need to get it dealt with, because it will hamper our ability to live as effective Christians, but it will not cost us our destination in Heaven. End of story.

But the wages of sin are still death...

Adam and Eve were OK with God and communed with Him regularly. When we have repented and he has filled us with His Spirit we are OK with Him.

When Adam and Eve turned their backs on God, they received the curse.
Likewise when we have turned our back on God we receive the curse.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6

But... Our Lord is not without mercy:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

How many times can we sin and get away with it after we are first saved?

The natural children of Israel were saved out of slavery in Egypt and saved time and time again in the wilderness. Each time they rebelled against God one more time. There was a limit to their foolishness and finally God rejected them and they died in the wilderness.

Moses failed greatly one time when he smote the rock and instead of speaking to it as God had told him to do. For that single rebellion of Moses he was also not allowed to enter the promised land.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 07:38 PM
Then that rebuke and chastisement is nothing more than a superficial punishment and it benefits nothing because ultimately there are no consequences for your actions. The only real corrections are those that have consequences. If you don't have anything to lose then it doesn't matter what you do and really by your own words you are saying this very thing..."yes we can sin and we can refuse to repent but this doesn't effect our kinship"

Who said forgiveness = no consequences of our actions?

The thief on the cross was forgiven, but he still faced the consequences for what he did.
We may face consequences, and we might not. That is up to our Heavenly Father.

The idea of punishment is for learning and turning a person around. If I have a child who stole something from me, and they truly 'repented', I would not have need to punish them (for that would not bring any profit), but they may still have to give back what they took (consequences). If they would not repent, then they would suffer punishment, but this is an act of love, not anger. Does that mean they would stop being my child?

If we followed your understanding of separation for unrepentant sin, I don't think they would be many folk on the earth today.

After being a Christian for around 46 years, I would say that the greatest pain I have felt, is a break in fellowship. How one can say that this is a superficial punishment, is beyond understanding.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 21st 2008, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the beautiful way you put it:P

The Bible tells us of sins one could commit and not be able to inherit the kingdom...Galatians 5.

I'll use one in your scenario. Let's say the sin you committed was adultery. If you didn't repent where would you spend eternity based on Galatians 5?Assuming I was saved in the first place, I would spend eternity in heaven. You've misread Galatians 5. Paul is talking about a lifestyle, not an individual occurrence.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 21st 2008, 08:10 PM
So we all agree that the PLAN is for us NOT to sin. If you go up just a few verses above the one you are quoting you will see that John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tells us that "IF" we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.John was talking about the initial moment of salvation, nothing more.
So what happens IF we don't confess our sins? Will He still forgive us our sins IF we DON'T confess? If He does still forgive us then why would John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost tell us that it is on the condition that we confess that we will be forgiven? Surely, the Holy Ghost wouldn't be wrong.

Now it also tells us that He will cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.At the moment of salvation.
Then how can a believer still commit unrighteousness if we have been cleansed from it?Follow me around for 24 hours and you'll find out!
There is more to it than a once covered everything will be OK belief.Not that you've been able to demonstrate.
The only way a believer can commit sin is to be out of the will of God.What, precisely, does that mean, to be "out of the will of God"? You are demonstrating a such a total lack of understanding of agape grace that it's heartbreaking, especially when I think about you spreading around this poison to other people.
For His plan is that we don't sin by the verse you quoted. So when we sin we are out of His plan.Here we go again - what do you mean by "out of His plan"? That's not a concept that I find in Scripture.
His plan is that we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. As long as we walk in the Spirit there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.That is NOT what it says in Romans 8:1! You have added "as long as we walk in the spirit"! You are manufacturing Scripture to support your own legalism.
For as long as we walk in the Spirit we will not sin.And when we do sin, we DON'T get thrown out with the bathwater.
Can the Spirit sin? Of course not. So IF while we sin we are away from the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit then there must be some course of action for us to be able to return to our walk with the Spirit and that is through confession and repentance.Again, you are not able to support that assertion with Scripture.

ServantofTruth
Aug 21st 2008, 08:11 PM
I have listed just seven verses that are very good examples of being able to give up your eternal salvation.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, "I have come to know Him", and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

As you can see there are a great many verses in the Bible that refer to the believer being able to voluntarily walk away from the Lord, to take up once again that sinful life, and become unsaved. However I think the verse that hits home the hardest is the following.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever

I was reading through and about to post on the earlier Galatians chapter 5 point. But first i believe it is impossible for someone whom the Holy Spirit comes and lives in, to then go back to being a non believer - each of these verses above, reading them, i don't believe contradicts my position.

What a believer can do, is fight the Holy Spirit within them, and what it is teaching them. Of course people doing the sins of Galatian 5: verse 19-21 won't inherit the kingdom of God. No sinner will! That is why we need Jesus Christ to remove that sin, before we inherit the kingdom.

Yes we can see lists of what we are heading towards - fruits - and lists which we are leaving behind. This is maturity/ growth. But we are saved by Grace immediately, we accept the perfect life, sacrifice for our personal sins and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is automatic that when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us, a change will begin to happen. But some will grow very slowly after a long time still be imature (anyone know the people we read about in scripture who were like this???) - still do many things on that list. Still be in conflict with the Spirit within. Will you or I doubt their salvation?

So sorry it makes no sense saying these things or any sin leads to loss of salvation. What it says it with those sins you will not enter the kingdom - and we all know that - Jesus is removing our sin before we arrive! SofTy.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 21st 2008, 08:17 PM
1. At the moment we accept "salvation", our slate is wiped clean.
2. However, every time we sin after that, we lose our salvation unless/until we "repent".
3. That means that we must repent not only at the moment of our salvation, but every time afterward that we sin, putting us in grave danger multiple times every day of going to hell if we die inconveniently at a moment where we are "unrepentant". (I won't even ask what happens if my house blows up as I'm going down to my knees to "repent" and I die before I get the words out. Guess I'm goin' to hell, huh? Shucks.)
4. Therefore, we should reject salvation until we are imminently about to die, because that way, we can repent only once and it will cover everything in one single, repentant act, and we get more value for our money, so to speak.
5. So from this day forward, based on the tremendous wisdom that 2 Peter 2:20 has enlightened me with, I am going to council every lost person I talk to about Jesus that they should wait, because otherwise, their salvation will probably be simply revoked and it will be a waste of time.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 08:25 PM
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is what I mean by being away. If we walk in the Spirit it is not possible to sin. These 2 forces are at war with each other. When we choose to follow after the flesh then and only then will we sin. You can't be righteous in the flesh and you can't be unrighteous in the Spirit. So if at any point you do sin then that should be an alarm to you that says "HEY, I MUST NOT BE IN THE WILL OF THE SPIRIT"

Is walking the same as living?

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

'they' that are after the Spirit, mind the things of the Spirit. You cannot 'mind' after both. Just as when we were of the flesh, we did not and could not mind the things of the Spirit (except when the Father by the Spirit drew us to the Son)

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Who are the 'ye'

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

They that are 'in Christ' walk after the Spirit.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 10:32 PM
Assuming I was saved in the first place, I would spend eternity in heaven. You've misread Galatians 5. Paul is talking about a lifestyle, not an individual occurrence.

How can I misread "of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[/URL]"
[URL="http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1758358#_ftnref1"] (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1758358#_ftn1)The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA

So how many times does it take to constitute a lifestyle or practice of sin? 1...2...3...4...5...more? Please answer me this.

How many sins constitute a lifestyle or practice of sin that keeps the unbeliever out of Heaven? 1...2...3...4...5...more?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 10:48 PM
Who said forgiveness = no consequences of our actions?

The thief on the cross was forgiven, but he still faced the consequences for what he did.
We may face consequences, and we might not. That is up to our Heavenly Father.

The idea of punishment is for learning and turning a person around. If I have a child who stole something from me, and they truly 'repented', I would not have need to punish them (for that would not bring any profit), but they may still have to give back what they took (consequences). If they would not repent, then they would suffer punishment, but this is an act of love, not anger. Does that mean they would stop being my child?

If we followed your understanding of separation for unrepentant sin, I don't think they would be many folk on the earth today.

After being a Christian for around 46 years, I would say that the greatest pain I have felt, is a break in fellowship. How one can say that this is a superficial punishment, is beyond understanding.

The punishment for sin is separation from God. If we have unrepented, unconfessed sin in your life and God still sends you to Heaven then there was no punishment or consequences for that sin. Don't think for one minute that I'm saying one sin and you're out. That's not what I'm saying. Peter tells us in the Bible to make every effort to be found without spot or blemish and to be at peace with Him. Why? Because of the coming of the Lord. We don't know the day or the hour of His coming. We must be prepared to go at anytime. If we have unrepented and unconfessed sin in our lives are we really prepared to meet the Lord?

Remember how the Lord told us to prayer...Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. 2 things are summed up here in this one verse. We must ask for forgiveness and we must forgive those who have trespassed against us. So what happens if we do not forgive others of their trespasses against us?

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. [/URL]
[URL="http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1758337#_ftnref1"] (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1758337#_ftn1)

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 11:19 PM
The punishment for sin is separation from God. If we have unrepented, unconfessed sin in your life and God still sends you to Heaven then there was no punishment or consequences for that sin. Don't think for one minute that I'm saying one sin and you're out. That's not what I'm saying.


Sure looks like you are.

Either sin separates or sin does not separate. If sin separates, then one sin separates.
What if that 'one sin' was murder of a brother?

Partaker of Christ
Aug 21st 2008, 11:30 PM
Remember how the Lord told us to prayer...Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. 2 things are summed up here in this one verse. We must ask for forgiveness and we must forgive those who have trespassed against us. So what happens if we do not forgive others of their trespasses against us?

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


And is this not to be prayed daily?

Matt 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread

If we have confessed our sin, He is faithful to forgive.
Do we pray daily for that so called 'one confessed sin', to be forgiven, that as already been forgiven?

Do we pray to be forgiven, even if we have no unconfessed sin to confess?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 11:30 PM
John was talking about the initial moment of salvation, nothing more.At the moment of salvation.Follow me around for 24 hours and you'll find out!Not that you've been able to demonstrate.What, precisely, does that mean, to be "out of the will of God"? You are demonstrating a such a total lack of understanding of agape grace that it's heartbreaking, especially when I think about you spreading around this poison to other people.Here we go again - what do you mean by "out of His plan"? That's not a concept that I find in Scripture.That is NOT what it says in Romans 8:1! You have added "as long as we walk in the spirit"! You are manufacturing Scripture to support your own legalism.And when we do sin, we DON'T get thrown out with the bathwater.Again, you are not able to support that assertion with Scripture.

I really appreciate your constructive criticism. You're right and I'm wrong! Excuse me while I quit denying the flesh and hop off this website and go look at some porn...since it obviously doesn't matter whether I look at it or not. After all, I'm saved and everything is forgiven...even the things I haven't done yet. I better get on the ball! As I look back on the past few years I think of all the sinful things I've missed out on...I really wish we would have talked about 5 years ago.:rolleyes:

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 21st 2008, 11:35 PM
Sure looks like you are.

Either sin separates or sin does not separate. If sin separates, then one sin separates.
What if that 'one sin' was murder of a brother?

I did ask you how many sins constitute "practicing" sin. Have you answered and I missed it?

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:12 AM
What, precisely, does that mean, to be "out of the will of God"? What do you mean by "out of His plan"?
I really appreciate your constructive criticism. You're right and I'm wrong! Excuse me while I quit denying the flesh and hop off this website and go look at some porn...since it obviously doesn't matter whether I look at it or not. After all, I'm saved and everything is forgiven...even the things I haven't done yet. I better get on the ball! As I look back on the past few years I think of all the sinful things I've missed out on...I really wish we would have talked about 5 years ago.:rolleyes:Be careful, sarcasm is a sin and you'll have to repent. Seriously though, are you going to answer my questions that you didn't address? Or are you unable to?

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:17 AM
This whole discussion reminds me of Isaiah 28:10 - "Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that ; a little here, a little there."

Never mind about having the "peace that passes all understanding" or the joy that Paul spoke of having. The total lack of understanding here of "grace" is absolutely tragic.

Of course grace is not a license to sin, but when we discover something that we need to repent of, we can do so rejoicing that we ALREADY have the forgiveness that was won for us on the cross. That's where true Christian joy comes from, not from walking around like a Pharisee wondering "let's see, is there anything I need to repent of in the next 5 minutes? Wow, I can't think of anything, I must be a good little Christian. Oops, there was some pride, I better repent of that."

This whole line of discussion would be worth rolling on the floor and howling over if it wasn't so tragic.

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:20 AM
Do we pray to be forgiven, even if we have no unconfessed sin to confess?

Yes. Better safe, then sorry I always say. Haven't you ever heard of being "prayed up"? I was taught this for 16 years of my life. You have to remain "prayed up", so that you have no sin in your life, in case you were to die instantly. This is how you keep your salvation if you die in your sleep, or in a traffic accident for example.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:25 AM
Yes. Better safe, then sorry I always say. Haven't you ever heard of being "prayed up"? I was taught this for 16 years of my life. You have to remain "prayed up", so that you have no sin in your life, in case you were to die instantly. This is how you keep your salvation if you die in your sleep, or in a traffic accident for example.Are you being sarcastic, I hope?

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:32 AM
Do we pray to be forgiven, even if we have no unconfessed sin to confess?And how can we even say for certain that there is no "unconfessed sin"? Our very fabric is sinful. We were sinful even in our mothers' wombs. Sin is the essence of our nature. Even our righteousness is as filthy rags. We are hopeless and completely depraved. I would argue that every moment of our lives is an exercise in sin. It is so deeply ingrained in our personalities that even our thought processes are contrary to the ways of God. "Sin" is not a list of actions that we have committed. "Sin" is a way of life that contains actions which prove our sinfulness. Even if we are able to temporarily control the actions, our sinfulness continues, completely unabetted. To walk around believing that one has no sin that needs to be confessed is the height of arrogance and pride. There is only one way that we can be freed from our perpetual life of sin, and that is by freedom through the redemption that was won for us on the cross. In applying Jesus' death to our being, God has washed us whiter than snow, so that the filthy rags are no longer sending up their stench. Our position before Him has been transformed.

To believe that we must continue winning that state on the merits of our own ability to keep up with unconfessed sin elevates us to the same level as God, and makes us guilty of idolatry - self-worship. "I have confessed all my sins, aren't I a good little Christian." How arrogant is such a state of mind? How high is up?

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:50 AM
Are you being sarcastic, I hope?

No, I'm being serious. I was taught about being "prayed up" in an Assembly Of God church for 16 years of my life. They taught that if a Christian sins, they are cut-off from the blood of Christ, and they must ask for forgiveness of the sin immediately, because if they died before they asked for forgiveness, they would go to Hell, even though they were a Christian. This is why you have to stay "prayed up."

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:00 AM
No, I'm being serious. I was taught about being "prayed up" in an Assembly Of God church for 16 years of my life. They taught that if a Christian sins, they are cut-off from the blood of Christ, and they must ask for forgiveness of the sin immediately, because if they died before they asked for forgiveness, they would go to Hell, even though they were a Christian. This is why you have to stay "prayed up."Oh my gosh, I might as well just throw in the towel right now, because my being prayed up will only be good for about as long as I can take one breath. What an awful way to live!

Nikos
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:56 AM
So it is a terrible thing to be prayed up. What's so terrible about it? What is wrong with living a holy life? Are you saying it is no fun to serve the Lord 24/7? What a strange belief. Next you will be saying we have no free will!

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:13 AM
Oh my gosh, I might as well just throw in the towel right now, because my being prayed up will only be good for about as long as I can take one breath. What an awful way to live!

:eek:

You better hope you don't die in your sleep tonight, or die in a car accident while driving to work.

BroRog
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:27 AM
No, I'm being serious. I was taught about being "prayed up" in an Assembly Of God church for 16 years of my life. They taught that if a Christian sins, they are cut-off from the blood of Christ, and they must ask for forgiveness of the sin immediately, because if they died before they asked for forgiveness, they would go to Hell, even though they were a Christian. This is why you have to stay "prayed up."

It's a doctrine of demons perpetrated to keep people afraid all the time. And frankly, if you are afraid of God, no matter how good you are, you're not going to be in fellowship with him. It's a no win situation.

Now, if you believe what Paul says, read Romans 8. In that chapter he points out that the Spirit prays on our behalf. God is not against you; he is for you. And his Spirit is praying for you all the time, even when you don't have the words to do it yourself.

Forget about trying to win God's favor with all your piety. He isn't impressed. Get to know yourself and seek God as a humble, honest, person and listen to Paul tell you that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ.

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:36 AM
It's a doctrine of demons perpetrated to keep people afraid all the time.

:eek:

I highly doubt that people who speak in languages that only God knows, can pick up rattle snakes and not be bitten, can flop around on the floor vibrating in the spirit, and can be pinned to the floor slain in the spirit, can be teaching the doctrine of demons. Can you do any of these things? These people have much more power then you or I have my friend.;)

BroRog
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:44 AM
:eek:

I highly doubt that people who speak in languages that only God knows, can pick up rattle snakes and not be bitten, can flop around on the floor vibrating in the spirit, and can be pinned to the floor slain in the spirit, can be teaching the doctrine of demons. Can you do any of these things? These people have much more power then you or I have my friend.;)

I can spit on the ground and make mud, but apparently I can't give sight to the blind. :)

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:10 AM
I can spit on the ground and make mud, but apparently I can't give sight to the blind. :)

This is because you have not tapped into the "faith force"

When you tap into the faith force, all you have to do is speak something in faith, and it becomes a reality. This is how I was able to buy my 2 million dollar house, and my 3 Corvettes. The faith force is awesome.

amazzin
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:14 AM
This is because you have not tapped into the "faith force"

When you tap into the faith force, all you have to do is speak something in faith, and it becomes a reality. This is how I was able to buy my 2 million dollar house, and my 3 Corvettes. The faith force is awesome.

What is Faith force ? Sounds awefully new age to me

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:20 AM
What is Faith force ? Sounds awefully new age to me

I learned about the faith force from Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Paul and Jan Crouch. These guys can't be wrong.

amazzin
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:20 AM
I learned about the faith force from Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Paul and Jan Crouch. These guys can't be wrong.

**GULP**
From what I read of your posts you are definately not Word of Faith. Another game?

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:29 AM
**GULP**
From what I read of your posts you are definately not Word of Faith. Another game?

Do you think that Word Of Faith theology is wrong? And do you think it gives pentecostals a bad name? I come from a pentecostal background, but I am not pentecostal myself.

amazzin
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:33 AM
Do you think that Word Of Faith theology is wrong? And do you think it gives pentecostals a bad name? I come from a pentecostal background, but I am not pentecostal myself.

We can debate theology and doctrine until we are blue in the face. Every denomination and every charasmatic stream has deviated and taught false doctrine including the WOF. What gives someone a bad name is bad teaching. It dosn't matter if you are Baptist, evangelical or
pentecostal. However, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

daughter
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:16 AM
Ron, you're taking the micky, surely? If you are not I'll explain where I'm coming from.

I've just come back from a mission trip in South Africa, and have seen faith that moves mountains. I've seen miraculous healings, I've seen lives transformed. But strangely enough, I've not seen the devout and loving Christians living in shanty towns use the "faith force" to buy big houses or fancy cars. If that is really what you think Christ died for then you have totally missed the point.

I'll tell you the truth, I went out and discovered that I was an emmisary from Smyrna meeting the church of Philadelphia. How about reading Christ's messages to the churches in Revelation before stating "these guys can't get it wrong"?

Of course, if you are only joking, it's in extremely bad taste, and not the kind of stirring that a Christian should indulge in.

Ron Brown
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:20 AM
I've just come back from a mission trip in South Africa, and have seen faith that moves mountains.

What is an example of faith that moves mountains that you have seen on a mission trip? I have never been overseas. Thanks.

daughter
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:28 AM
Something I need to know first: are you taking the micky in your talk of word of faith? If you are joking, then I would wonder at your motive for mocking other Christians, since it could be that your "game playing" is bringing sound doctrine into disrepute.

If you seriously think Christ died so you could have a faith force to call on, in order to have a nice house, etc, can I ask you to read the following? Actually, it won't do any harm to read it anyway.

Paul's advice to Timothy http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&version=31

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:56 AM
Be careful, sarcasm is a sin and you'll have to repent. Seriously though, are you going to answer my questions that you didn't address? Or are you unable to?

Of course I'm able to answer it but after I answer it are you going to call it poison or legalism or heartbreaking?

Before I answer it I have to ask one question. Why do you think that because I believe that unrepented unconfessed sin (if you want to insert "lifestyle" or "practicing/active" in here it's OK) will and can send you to hell that I can't have joy and peace in the grace and mercy of our Lord? I'm not afraid of that at all. For God's judgment is just. We know exactly where we stand either we are in righteousness or we are in unrighteousness. There's no middle ground. Those that are righteous will find Heaven and those that are unrighteous will find hell.

When I refer to "God's plan or God's will" I mean that based on 1 John as well as many other verses which tell us to live holy and godly lives.

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

This plan for us to not sin CAN ONLY be done by walking in the Spirit. For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus THAT walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Did I miss quote it again???). Sure we have an Advocate IF we do sin but that is not the plan. It is possible for believers to sin but that sin only comes about when we choose to walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit, which is scriptural...it can be done.

On another note I see that no one who disagrees with me will answer the question of...How many sins does it take before it becomes a "lifestyle" or "active practicing" sin? 1...2...3...4...5...more?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:10 PM
Literalist Luke,

One thing that is odd to me is your screen name "Literalist". I am assuming that you take the Bible literally? So how do you get around these verses...literally?

Gal.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev.
15Outside (of the Holy City) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

It literally says that those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Unless you say that a believer can't do these things. That would be the only literal way around it and then that is a conversation we must get ironed out before the converation we are in right now can continue.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:45 PM
Of course I'm able to answer it but after I answer it are you going to call it poison or legalism or heartbreaking?

Before I answer it I have to ask one question. Why do you think that because I believe that unrepented unconfessed sin (if you want to insert "lifestyle" or "practicing/active" in here it's OK) will and can send you to hell that I can't have joy and peace in the grace and mercy of our Lord?Because if I was living with a belief like that, my entire life would be one long uninterrupted exercise in terror. I would be constantly worrying about whether or not I had missed or forgotten something.
I'm not afraid of that at all. For God's judgment is just.That’s the whole problem – God is just, so somebody with unforgiven sin has no chance of ever seeing heaven.
We know exactly where we stand either we are in righteousness or we are in unrighteousness.And how do you know? How can you say for certain that you have no unconfessed sin? Psalm 51:5 says “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”, so even an unborn baby has sin, yet they cannot possibly be aware yet of their need to claim Jesus’ death as the payment for their sins. If a baby that has not even been born yet has sin, then how can you say for certain that you have no unconfessed sin? What is your standard?
There's no middle ground. Those that are righteous will find Heaven and those that are unrighteous will find hell.I agree, but my righteousness is by virtue of Christ’s payment for me, which was applied to my entire life, including the future, when I accepted His gift.
When I refer to "God's plan or God's will" I mean that based on 1 John as well as many other verses which tell us to live holy and godly lives.

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. What do you suppose Jesus says to the Father in our defense? Have you ever considered that?
This plan for us to not sin CAN ONLY be done by walking in the Spirit.I agree, and we are certainly to do our best, but it is inevitable that we will mess up.
For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus THAT walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Did I miss quote it again???). Romans 8:1-2 – “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”

I am free in Christ Jesus to live a holy lifestyle in the joy of knowing that if I mess up, I can pick myself back up, dust myself off, and go on. I refuse to be a prisoner of "being prayed up".
Sure we have an Advocate IF we do sin but that is not the plan. It is possible for believers to sin but that sin only comes about when we choose to walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit, which is scriptural...it can be done. So how do you deal with this passage?

Romans 7 – “14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.”

Sounds like Paul was having quite a struggle with sin – does that mean that even the Apostle Paul ws going back and forth between saved/unsaved/saved/unsaved/saved/unsaved?
On another note I see that no one who disagrees with me will answer the question of...How many sins does it take before it becomes a "lifestyle" or "active practicing" sin? 1...2...3...4...5...more?That’s because the number is irrelevant. If one is truly saved, it doesn’t matter how many times, you’re still saved. If one is unsaved, then only once is all it takes. That’s precisely what Jesus was talking about to Peter in Matthew 18:21-22 – “Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive someone who sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’ ”

The point being that we are to forgive beyond being able to keep count. If that is the standard that we are apply to each other, then that means that God is applying the same standard to us – He forgives us beyond counting, so the number is irrelevant.
One thing that is odd to me is your screen name "Literalist". I am assuming that you take the Bible literally? So how do you get around these verses...literally?

Gal.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.If a person is practicing such things on a regular basis, then they weren’t saved to begin with.
1 Cor.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev.
15Outside (of the Holy City) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.Same thing – people who live like this on a regular basis were never saved in the first place.
It literally says that those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Unless you say that a believer can't do these things.A believer cannot do these things habitually. Only a lost person could.
That would be the only literal way around it and then that is a conversation we must get ironed out before the converation we are in right now can continue.Since we’re talking about good fruit vs. bad fruit, let’s dig into that a little deeper: The New Testament tells us that, by our fruits, we will be known. So if you see a tree that is producing apples, you know it’s an apple tree. If you see a bush that produces thorns, you know that nothing good is coming from it. So a believer would obviously be more like the apple tree. But does that mean that if the apple tree produces a bad apple here and there or allows a worm to get in a few apples that we have to cut down the tree and burn it? That’s ridiculous. The tree is still an apple tree – it doesn’t have to be re-planted, and we don’t have to be re-saved.

And to answer your inevitable question about "How many bad apples does it have to produce before we chop it down?", that's not our place to judge. I know people who claim to be Christians who, based on their "fruit", I seriously question whether nor not they really are. But they know the Gospel, they are aware of the Truth, so it's not my place to judge, it's only God's. And it's not your place to either, so why do you worry about where the line is drawn? If you know that you're on the correct side of the line, that's all that should matter. Besides, "crossing the line" is not even the point. The point of looking at somebody's fruit is to determine which side of the line they're already on, not to see how close they're getting to the proverbial line.

Let me ask you this: What do you do with this passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Did you see this statement? "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened...to be brought back to repentance." What is your explanation for that?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 22nd 2008, 06:50 PM
Because if I was living with a belief like that, my entire life would be one long uninterrupted exercise in terror. I would be constantly worrying about whether or not I had missed or forgotten something.

Well, I can tell you with all honesty that I do believe like that and I have no terror or fear or lack of joy or lack of peace. Actually, most who know and work with me will say that I'm one of the happiest people they have ever known and I tell them that God has been really good to me. To ask for forgiveness we don't have to think and name each and every sin "word for word" exactly before He will forgive us. That's why Jesus showed us how to pray. All we have to do is ask for forgiveness with a sincere heart and that covers everything from that moment back. So we don't have to worry about the "sins that we didn't know about or forgot".


That’s the whole problem – God is just, so somebody with unforgiven sin has no chance of ever seeing heaven.And how do you know? How can you say for certain that you have no unconfessed sin?

I can be certain because the Bible tells us that if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us. Call me crazy...I believe it! If I'm forgiven really forgiven then I don't walk around worrying about it because I take God at His word. He's forgiven me and He will remember it no more. I learn from my mistakes and move on.


Psalm 51:5 says “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”, so even an unborn baby has sin, yet they cannot possibly be aware yet of their need to claim Jesus’ death as the payment for their sins. If a baby that has not even been born yet has sin, then how can you say for certain that you have no unconfessed sin? What is your standard?

You are speaking of pre-salvation times. I agree that everyone has had sin in their life. But when we accepted Christ ALL those sins that we had were wiped away. We don't carry them around like weights...they are gone. I don't believe in the "I'm a sinner saved by grace mentality". That's what we were...not what we are. My certainty is that He is faithful to forgive us and I believe it.


I agree, but my righteousness is by virtue of Christ’s payment for me, which was applied to my entire life, including the future, when I accepted His gift.What do you suppose Jesus says to the Father in our defense? Have you ever considered that?

And I agree that it is through Him we even have the opportunity to be righteous. He probably says something along the same lines as what He said on the cross...Father forgive them they know not what they do.



I agree, and we are certainly to do our best, but it is inevitable that we will mess up. Romans 8:1-2 – “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”


And when we mess up what do we do? We ask for forgiveness, right? We feel bad and we say Lord I'm sorry for what I did and I'll never do it again...confession and repentance. Under your scenario there's really not a need to do it.

The KJV reads the way I quoted it...


I am free in Christ Jesus to live a holy lifestyle in the joy of knowing that if I mess up, I can pick myself back up, dust myself off, and go on. I refuse to be a prisoner of "being prayed up".

And I do as well...and it is not a prison. It is just asking for forgiveness when you mess up.



So how do you deal with this passage?

Romans 7 – “14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.”

Sounds like Paul was having quite a struggle with sin – does that mean that even the Apostle Paul ws going back and forth between saved/unsaved/saved/unsaved/saved/unsaved?


Paul wasn't above struggling with the flesh. He is saying that there is a war going on between your flesh and the Spirit. He also echos this in some of his other writings. It is an active war and that tells me that there is still something as stake. If it was ALL (including future) forgiven then there wouldn't be a war between the flesh and the Spirit. The flesh would have no power and we would ALL walk perfect...as Christ walked.



That’s because the number is irrelevant. If one is truly saved, it doesn’t matter how many times, you’re still saved. If one is unsaved, then only once is all it takes. That’s precisely what Jesus was talking about to Peter in Matthew 18:21-22 – “Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive someone who sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’ ”

The point being that we are to forgive beyond being able to keep count. If that is the standard that we are apply to each other, then that means that God is applying the same standard to us – He forgives us beyond counting, so the number is irrelevant.If a person is practicing such things on a regular basis, then they weren’t saved to begin with.Same thing – people who live like this on a regular basis were never saved in the first place.A believer cannot do these things habitually. Only a lost person could.


It is relevant. Let's say a believer is caught in the act of adultery 10 times. Most would start to question their salvation, right? I would and you are as well from your comments that only a unbeliever would do this habitually. But you are also quoting scripture that says they could do it 10 times and still be saved because Jesus told us to forgive 70x7. How much is habitual? How much is a lifestyle?



Since we’re talking about good fruit vs. bad fruit, let’s dig into that a little deeper: The New Testament tells us that, by our fruits, we will be known. So if you see a tree that is producing apples, you know it’s an apple tree. If you see a bush that produces thorns, you know that nothing good is coming from it. So a believer would obviously be more like the apple tree. But does that mean that if the apple tree produces a bad apple here and there or allows a worm to get in a few apples that we have to cut down the tree and burn it? That’s ridiculous. The tree is still an apple tree – it doesn’t have to be re-planted, and we don’t have to be re-saved.

And to answer your inevitable question about "How many bad apples does it have to produce before we chop it down?", that's not our place to judge. I know people who claim to be Christians who, based on their "fruit", I seriously question whether nor not they really are. But they know the Gospel, they are aware of the Truth, so it's not my place to judge, it's only God's. And it's not your place to either, so why do you worry about where the line is drawn? If you know that you're on the correct side of the line, that's all that should matter. Besides, "crossing the line" is not even the point. The point of looking at somebody's fruit is to determine which side of the line they're already on, not to see how close they're getting to the proverbial line.


That apple tree can become diseased and never produce another apple. After a while that apple tree will be cut down and cast into the fire because it is good for nothing.

But we are to judge those in the church. Paul tells us to do the very thing in 1 Cor. He says God will judge those outside and brothers are to judge other brothers.



Let me ask you this: What do you do with this passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Did you see this statement? "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened...to be brought back to repentance." What is your explanation for that?

This is speaking of the sin of apostasy and once a true believer renounces the faith completely they have committed the unforgiveable sin. They have in essence said that the Holy Spirit is not from God and that is blasphemy.

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:09 PM
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What I have to wonder then, is what we do with these verses? These verses seem to contradict almost everything we have read in 1 John up to this point.



1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But this says:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


What I have to then wonder, are we defining sin as sin is being defined here? Don't we usually define sin as smoking, drinking, cussing, cheating on spouse, etc?
How can we keep track of all of these sins that we as mankind have determined are sins? And what about the subtle sins, the sins that we may not even recognize as sin, how do we confess these? It just seems to me that perhaps we're all missing the intended msg 1 John is trying to convey?

The key that I see is in I John 3:6 "abide in Him".

When Peter in faith stepped on out on the water, he walked on water. While walking on the water he was abiding in Him. When he doubted and looked fearfully down at the water, he began to sink. Peter then cried out "Lord save me" and Jesus took hold of his hand.

Peter went from faithful follower to backslider and back to faithful follower in that single episode. All of us play this yo-yo type of game too often.

James states it simply:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

It "ought not so to be" but it is in fact. That is not God's fault but ours. When He saves us we need to trust Him. Instead too often we walk back down our own pathway trying to determine our own way. We need to trust Him continuously. We need to call upon Him continuously.

Too often after having receiving His Spirit we starve that Spirit so that it leaves us.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:12 PM
Hi Nikos!

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Tell me; if one who once loved the Lord, ends up not loving the Lord, and in your understanding (becomes unsaved), then does God lie, when He says 'all things work together for good' to those that love Him?
For that would mean that things did not work together for good, for those who at one time did love Him.

God always loves us, but we do not always love Him. If we did, we would never sin again. Every time that we slip and sin willfully, in that moment we love the sin more than we love the Master.

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:21 PM
Then that rebuke and chastisement is nothing more than a superficial punishment and it benefits nothing because ultimately there are no consequences for your actions. The only real corrections are those that have consequences. If you don't have anything to lose then it doesn't matter what you do and really by your own words you are saying this very thing..."yes we can sin and we can refuse to repent but this doesn't effect our kinship"

Yes, The man HAD to go and make things right...first. He had to confess and repent of his offenses before God would even acknowledge him. So what would have happened if he never made things right with his brother? God would have never acknowledged him.


16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is what I mean by being away. If we walk in the Spirit it is not possible to sin. These 2 forces are at war with each other. When we choose to follow after the flesh then and only then will we sin. You can't be righteous in the flesh and you can't be unrighteous in the Spirit. So if at any point you do sin then that should be an alarm to you that says "HEY, I MUST NOT BE IN THE WILL OF THE SPIRIT"

Amen!

There are two forces within each one of us who has received God's Spirit in his heart, Both want to have the dominion in our heart. There is the 'old man' who will always walk in our own 'old' ways which always lead to sin and the 'new inner man' who hears the Master's voice and obeys it.

God loses no battles, but we still have a choice at all times, even after we receive His Spirit, to follow God or to follow our flesh (the 'old man'). If we follow God in every decision we make and every action we take, God will alway have the dominion and in the end victory will be His.

If we are too weak to make the right choice then we need to ask for His help. He will not refuse to help us to accomplish His will.

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:31 PM
How can I misread "of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA

So how many times does it take to constitute a lifestyle or practice of sin? 1...2...3...4...5...more? Please answer me this.

How many sins constitute a lifestyle or practice of sin that keeps the unbeliever out of Heaven? 1...2...3...4...5...more?

How many times indeed?!?

The natural children of Israel sinned at least 10 times by rebelling against God in the wilderness before God finally rejected them and denied them access to the promised land.

Moses on the other hand disobeyed God once by smiting the rock rather than speaking to and was denied access.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." LUke 12"48

How much have we been given? God knows!

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22

We are to forgive our brother how many times? 490 if a literal answer is intended here? How much more merciful must our heavenly Father be who has forgiven me already 490 times many times over?

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:37 PM
And is this not to be prayed daily?

Matt 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread

If we have confessed our sin, He is faithful to forgive.
Do we pray daily for that so called 'one confessed sin', to be forgiven, that as already been forgiven?

Do we pray to be forgiven, even if we have no unconfessed sin to confess?

"Pray without ceasing" I Thess 5:17

"Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say rejoice" Phil 4:4

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible' Matt 19:25-26

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

How often do we need to ask of Him? Continuously! If that is impossible, ask Him to make help us ask of Him continuously as well....

philloman
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:45 PM
Of course I'm able to answer it but after I answer it are you going to call it poison or legalism or heartbreaking?

Before I answer it I have to ask one question. Why do you think that because I believe that unrepented unconfessed sin (if you want to insert "lifestyle" or "practicing/active" in here it's OK) will and can send you to hell that I can't have joy and peace in the grace and mercy of our Lord? I'm not afraid of that at all. For God's judgment is just. We know exactly where we stand either we are in righteousness or we are in unrighteousness. There's no middle ground. Those that are righteous will find Heaven and those that are unrighteous will find hell.

When I refer to "God's plan or God's will" I mean that based on 1 John as well as many other verses which tell us to live holy and godly lives.

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

This plan for us to not sin CAN ONLY be done by walking in the Spirit. For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus THAT walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Did I miss quote it again???). Sure we have an Advocate IF we do sin but that is not the plan. It is possible for believers to sin but that sin only comes about when we choose to walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit thus grieving and quenching the Spirit, which is scriptural...it can be done.

On another note I see that no one who disagrees with me will answer the question of...How many sins does it take before it becomes a "lifestyle" or "active practicing" sin? 1...2...3...4...5...more?

Oh yes there is "middle ground", but we would rather not go there would we, for that is worse than being "cold" (unrighteous)!

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Literalist-Luke
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:13 PM
2 Peter 2:20 - OK then, we will have to simply agree to disagree on this.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:16 PM
2 Peter 2:20 - OK then, we will have to simply agree to disagree on this.

Are you kidding me??? We are actually just getting a better understanding of each others side. Come on, we have just waded out into the deep water.:P

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:20 PM
Oh yes there is "middle ground", but we would rather not go there would we, for that is worse than being "cold" (unrighteous)!

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Yes you are correct with the lukewarm. A different ("degree":lol:) but the same end as the cold.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:40 AM
Are you kidding me??? We are actually just getting a better understanding of each others side. Come on, we have just waded out into the deep water.:PI think I have a pretty good understanding already of your position. You not only reject "once saved, always saved", but you even elevate this rejection to the level of constantly moving back and forth on a regular basis between being saved and being unsaved. That is one of the most repugnant suggestions regarding salvation that I have ever seen. If you feel like you're learning something from me, then I'll certainly be very happy to continue sharing, but it didn't appear to me from your responses that you were getting anything from my posts. Was I mistaken?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:30 PM
I think I have a pretty good understanding already of your position. You not only reject "once saved, always saved", but you even elevate this rejection to the level of constantly moving back and forth on a regular basis between being saved and being unsaved. That is one of the most repugnant suggestions regarding salvation that I have ever seen. If you feel like you're learning something from me, then I'll certainly be very happy to continue sharing, but it didn't appear to me from your responses that you were getting anything from my posts. Was I mistaken?

Are you saying you only want to continue this conversation if you are changing my mind??? Sure I reject OSAS...It's wrong. What makes you so sure you are correct? Maybe you should continue so you can learn something from me!

More than anything I want to continue this conversation to see how many more descriptive words you can us on me...now we are at "repugnant" but lets not forget "legalism", "posion", and there was one more and I can't remember exactly what it was...do you???

You call it repugnant because I believe we should live holy lives which is according to scripture and that sin is separation from God which is according to scripture as well. It's through God's grace and mercy that we even have a chance at eternal life which is according to scripture and through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that the sins of the whole world were paid which is according to scripture. What makes that repugnant???

And I believe "literally...Literalist Luke" that those who do the things listed in Galatians 5 will not inherit the kingdom of God...I guess that's the one that really pushed me over the top!

Nikos
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:37 PM
I have listed just seven verses that are very good examples of being able to give up your eternal salvation.
2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".
Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".
1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, "I have come to know Him", and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".
1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons".
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".
John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
As you can see there are a great many verses in the Bible that refer to the believer being able to voluntarily walk away from the Lord, to take up once again that sinful life, and become unsaved. However I think the verse that hits home the hardest is the following.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever

Literalist-Luke
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:38 PM
Are you saying you only want to continue this conversation if you are changing my mind???I don’t like arguing just for arguing’s sake.
Sure I reject OSAS...It's wrong. What makes you so sure you are correct? I have attempted to explain exactly that in my previous posts.
Maybe you should continue so you can learn something from me!I would say you’ve had ample opportunity t present your point in as many posts as you have made in this thread as well, but if there’s more to share, I’m willing to consider it.
More than anything I want to continue this conversation to see how many more descriptive words you can us on me...now we are at "repugnant" but lets not forget "legalism", "posion", and there was one more and I can't remember exactly what it was...do you???Glad to see you know exactly where I stand on this issue.
You call it repugnant because I believe we should live holy livesWrong – I call it repugnant, poison, and other things because your suggestion, if it were true, would mean that almost nobody would wind up saved and in heaven.
which is according to scripture and that sin is separation from God which is according to scripture as well. But not to the point of losing salvation, if one was truly saved to begin with.
It's through God's grace and mercy that we even have a chance at eternal life which is according to scripture and through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that the sins of the whole world were paid which is according to scripture. What makes that repugnant???The idea that it’s up to us to not lose that salvation. I don’t trust myself to be able to “keep” my salvation, and for anybody to suggest that we can be good enough to do so on our own is the height of arrogance.
And I believe "literally...Literalist Luke" that those who do the things listed in Galatians 5 will not inherit the kingdom of God...I guess that's the one that really pushed me over the top!Yes, I know, you said that. My work here is done.

Longsufferer
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:12 PM
“I we say that we have no sin(ie: present tense), we deceive ourselves, and The Truth is not in us.”
(I John.1:8)
“If we confess our sins(ie: acknowledge our guilt or admit our wrongs throughout our life, with the sincere effort in our heart to reform ourselves of our wrong doings), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
(I John.1:9)
“If we say that we have not sinned(ie: past tense), we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”
(I John.1:10)
”He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at..”
(John.8:7)
***Note: I personally would never say that I am without sin, but if I were to apply a logic which says, that because no matter if it be my past, present, or future sins, since they are automatically forgiven; then in effect, I am without sin: I could never justify sin, but I could condemn sin in the flesh
***
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(ie: mercy seat) through faith(ie: reliance) in His blood(ie: sacrifice), to declare at this time His righteousness for the remission(ie: passing over) of sins that are past(ie: repented of), through the forbearance(ie: tolerance) of God.”
(Romans.3:25)
“…for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
(Romans.14:23b)
“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
Romans.11:22)
“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled, In the body of His flesh through death, to pesent you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel…”
(Colossians.1:21-23)
“Now the Spirit spealeth expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”
(I Timothy.4:1)
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
(Matthew.6:15
“And the lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
(Matthew.18:34,35)
“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the Truth, there remained no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..”
(Hebrews.10:26,27a)

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:30 PM
Wrong – I call it repugnant, poison, and other things because your suggestion, if it were true, would mean that almost nobody would wind up saved and in heaven.

What does the Bible say about this...

Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1 Peter 4:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=4&verse=18&version=9&context=verse)
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

It tells us that only few find the narrow way. Not me...the Bible. Wonder why that is?


Oh, I will add "arrogance" to the list

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:53 PM
LL,

The reason I keep bringing up Galatians 5 is that it plainly says that those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is not something I made up. It is in your terms...When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense...which happens to be your signature.

I see that you believe that we shouldn't read so much into it and that's what I'm doing. I'm letting the Bible speak for itself...plain sense!

I understand your defense that those that would do these things are not true believers. You say that on one hand and on the other you say that true believers (including yourself) sin all the time. So are you saying that we can sin some sins just not the ones listed in Galatians 5? IOW...the Holy Spirit is able to keep us from sinning the really bad sins but is unable to keep us from sinning the everyday common sins.

cdo
Aug 23rd 2008, 06:10 PM
Did Jesus Christ die for ALL our sins, past, present and future, or just our past sins?
Jesus died once and for All.There is no more sacrifice for our sins,
only repentance.We repent for sins that we commit willingly and those that we may not be aware of. God knows our heart, if we are truly repentant for our actions He is just to forgive us with His mercy and grace. God knows we all fall short of His Glory and He knows there will be times we fall. There is therefore no more Blood Sacrifice for our sins other than repenting and trusting in our Saviour.


Some say that only our past sins are forgiven, and that If (as Christians) we sin, we are separated from God
If only our 'past sins' were forgiven and we are saved....Why then would we continue to live by God's will ?We have God's Holy Word to us to live by.As Paul states about 'run the race that is set before us'The Purpose that God has given to His Children 'for His Purpose'.
Sin does separate us from our God.That's why we should always put God first in our life. So when sin happens and it does we can repent. But, this does not ...give us a permit to sin !!! Though sin may separate us from God. We still have repentance.



We know from scripture that the Law demands, the wages for sin is death. So, if Jesus paid that wage through His death, how can we then be separated?
'The wages of sin is death'.....cause and effect
God will not look upon sin,so we must repent.Yes, Jesus paid for our sin.But you have to remember...Jesus also said 'He would be with us til the end of the world.He will never leave us nor forsake us.....so let us grow in our relationship with Him and His Word


According to the Law, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth is justice. Two eyes for an eye, is unjust.
If the price has been paid, then justice has been done. Can the Law demand the payment twice for the same wrong?
"an eye for an eye"Is not justice according to the N.T.
"tooth for a tooth" not justice either...N.T.
I'm not sure what your asking in this ???Are you talking about God's Law according to sin?.......Payment for your sins ....paid again as by Jesus? Jesus has paid you debt!!!! once and for all.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 28th 2008, 02:07 AM
I did ask you how many sins constitute "practicing" sin. Have you answered and I missed it?

One or many.

Practice can mean to train oneself up, to reach a goal that you have set your heart on doing.

Suppose I want a particular job.
I could practice my interview skills, and knowledge etc: to increase my chances of success. I may not end up getting the job, but I have practiced (a lot of time and thought to attain what I set my heart on)

Suppose I wanted to commit adultery. I set my heart upon my goal. I practice all the skills I may need to successfully lure the person of my desire. If I have failed to win my prize (not committed an act of adultery), am I without sin?
Even though I may have failed, would I still not be guilty of 'practising' adultery?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
A Spirit filled Christian will have a war going on (the spirit against the flesh). He may at times stumble and fall into sin, but he does not practice sin. He may stumble and fall, because he thought he could stand. He relied upon his own strength to stand, but that is standing in the flesh. He is careless and deceived himself.
I may be careless when driving my car. I have been driving for many years, and never had an accident. I may one day kill someone because of my carelessness. Have I practiced (premeditated) murder?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 28th 2008, 02:32 AM
One or many.

Practice can mean to train oneself up, to reach a goal that you have set your heart on doing.
Yes, it can mean it as you have defined practicing but I do not think this is the intended definition of practicing here in this discussion. I think of it as...

to carry out; as of jobs and professions; "practice law" or "practice medicine"

These doctors and lawyers have already done the practicing or learning you are talking about now they are actively practicing law and medicine. They are carrying out their practice.



If I have failed to win my prize (not committed an act of adultery), am I without sin?
Even though I may have failed, would I still not be guilty of 'practising' adultery?

Sure, because you looked after that person with the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh.

A Spirit filled Christian will have a war going on (the spirit against the flesh). He may at times stumble and fall into sin, but he does not practice sin.
Yes, we call that backsliding. So what happens if this person falls back into sin and never repents or confesses of these sins that have entangled them again?

may be careless when driving my car. I have been driving for many years, and never had an accident. I may one day kill someone because of my carelessness. Have I practiced (premeditated) murder?
Premeditated? No but if you knowingly broke the law then yes I believe it is a sin. Can you be forgiven? Sure.

Partaker of Christ
Aug 28th 2008, 02:14 PM
Yes, it can mean it as you have defined practicing but I do not think this is the intended definition of practicing here in this discussion. I think of it as...

to carry out; as of jobs and professions; "practice law" or "practice medicine"

These doctors and lawyers have already done the practicing or learning you are talking about now they are actively practicing law and medicine. They are carrying out their practice.

Sure, their whole lifestyle is geared to doing law and medicine.

If I administer medication, or give a medical advise 'once' to my wife, have I not 'practised' medicine?

The British word is 'practise' (verb)

practise:
verb 1. rehearse, study, prepare, perfect, repeat, go through, polish, go over, refine, run through

verb 2. do, train, exercise, work out, drill, warm up, keep your hand in

verb 3. carry out, follow, apply, perform, observe, engage in, live up to, put into practice

verb 4. work at, pursue, carry on, undertake, specialize in, ply your trade

Collins Essential Thesaurus 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2005, 2006



Sure, because you looked after that person with the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh.

Yes, we call that backsliding. So what happens if this person falls back into sin and never repents or confesses of these sins that have entangled them again?

Premeditated? No but if you knowingly broke the law then yes I believe it is a sin. Can you be forgiven? Sure.

What law?

Suppose I was in a land were there is no specific speed driving laws, but I drove at a speed that was risky. I take all things into account, and decide that the risk is small.

JOHN CALVIN
Jul 13th 2014, 11:19 PM
I believe that we are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8,9) but we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4). We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) but our faith can become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20) and cease to exist (Lk. 8:13; Rom. 11:19-23). We are not under the law (Rom. 6:14,15) but if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (Rom. 8:13). Paul taught against legalism (Gal. 5:3,4) but he also taught that no immoral, impure or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph. 5:5-7). We are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8,9) but to reap eternal life and not destruction you must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8,9). God is faithful to us (1 Jn. 1:9; 1 Cor. 10:13) but we must be faithful to him to the very end of our lives to escape the lake of fire or second death (Rev. 2:10,11). God surely loves us (Jn. 3:16; Mk. 10:21; Rom. 8:35-39) but those who inherit the kingdom of God love God (Jam 2:5; 1 Cor. 2:9) and to love God means to obey his commands (Jn. 14:15; 1 Jn. 5:3). We have freedom in Christ (Gal. 5:1) but this freedom is not to indulge the sinful nature (Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet 2:16).
THAT IS VERY WELL SAID MY FRIEND. AND LETS NOT FORGET WHAT HEBREWS 10:26-31 SAYS.
Christ or Judgment26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.