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apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:31 AM
Lately a lot of Christians have been coming out and saying they’re pro-choice, declaring they’re not necessarily for abortion, but they are for the right of the woman to choose. I want to look at some of the arguments for this and argue why a Christian simply cannot be pro-Choice:

1) “We have no right to tell a woman what to do with her own body.”

This argument has been dealt with already in another post I made concerning abortion. I argued:

This way of thinking assumes too much - it assumes that we can do whatever we want to our bodies without having a communal consequence. However, there are times where what I do to my body will inevitably affect those around me (i.e. if I inject myself with an airborne disease, because it will harm those around me I do not have the right to do such a thing). Almost everyone would argue that if we take an action against our body that negatively affects others, that action shouldn’t be taken.

In this case, the child in the womb is ontologically separate from the mother, though reliant. That is to say, the child really isn’t part of the mother’s body. The mother plays host to the body. If a guest comes into your house, eats your food, drinks your water, and sleeps in your bed, does that guest belong to you? Of course not - the guest, though reliant upon you, is not a part of who you are.

The counter to the above argument is that the baby, especially early on, is made up of cells provided by the mother. This is true, but completely irrelevant. No female can spontaneously produce a child without any fertilization from a male. This means that the baby isn’t entirely made up of the mother’s cells, which would seem to indicate that the child in the womb isn’t really part of the mother’s body (in the same way an arm, heart, or lung is part of the mother’s body).

All of this means that the child growing within the mother is really a body inside a body and not just an extension of the mother’s body. It contains foreign matter (via sperm) that is not natural to the mother’s body. If that is true, an abortion is an act that is taken out on the mother’s body that severely affects the child (through death). This would mean that abortion is highly immoral since it is a selfish action that harms an innocent party.

In short, a baby simply isn’t a part or an extension of the mother’s body, but instead a separate being that is reliant upon the mother.

In light of this, though we might not have a right to tell a woman what to do with her own body, we do have a right to tell her what to do with her body when her actions affect a living human being.

2) “There are other issues that should be dealt with.”

It is true that there are other issues that need to be dealt with, but we must ask ourselves if these other issues are on par with or above our ethical responsibility to human life. I believe there are two approaches to this view:

I) The hierarchialist view – Under this view one accepts that there is a hierarchy of ethical conduct. Thus, there are some ethical codes that are simply higher than others. If the Nazis knock on my door and ask if I’m hiding Jews and I am, in fact, hiding Jews then most hierarchicalists would argue that protecting human life is a higher good than lying. Thus, one is allowed to suspend the ethical judgment against lying because a higher ethical calling is on the line. Another example is that of speeding. Most would agree that it is ‘ethical’ to go the speed limit (ethical in that it is obeying the law), but most would also argue that if there was a life-threatening emergency that required one speed to the hospital it would be okay to suspend the ethic of following the law in order to follow the ethic of saving a life.

Biblically this holds some justification. Though there is nothing explicit within Scripture that says there is a hierarchy, it is implicit in some of the ethical situations presented. Without going into too much detail we can see that the Law itself holds different punishments for different offenses, with offenses and crimes against the image of God (humans) holding severe penalties. Likewise, we know it is wrong to deceive people or to tell half truths, yet we see God ordering Samuel to deceive and tell a half truth when directed by God to go anoint David as king. Jesus tells us not to deny Him while Paul tells us to follow the government and ruling authorities; the Jewish authorities told Paul to cease preaching Jesus, but he disobeyed them. Obviously, in this instance, the higher ethical value was following God rather than following an authority. The list goes on, but this should help to show that there are some ethics that are higher than others.

With the above in mind once could argue that crimes against humanity are more severe than any other ethical violation (such as pollution or animal cruelty). Things such as homosexuality, adultery, alcoholism, drug abuse, or even child abuse – though evil in their own right – do not measure up to murder. Whereas there is still life after the previous offenses, murder is a final act.

In light of this, though there are other acts that are important and should be dealt with, ethically speaking abortion is the greatest unethical act allowed by law, thus it should be the number one issue when going to the voting booth. This is not to say the other issues aren’t important, but simply that they are not as important as that of abortion.

II) The Deontological view – this view would hold that all values are equal. Lying and murdering are both ethically wrong and should both be avoided, regardless of the consequences. To use an above example, even if you need to speed in order to save a life you shouldn’t speed because you would be violating an ethical principle.

Even this view, however, would negate the above argument. Though other issues would be viewed as equal they would not be mutually exclusive to desiring to ban abortion. One could conceivably be passionate about both environmental reform and banning abortion on demand.

3) “Why don’t you get out there and talk to the women instead of trying to pass a law against abortion?”

For whatever reason some people are pro-choice because they believe abortions will happen no matter what we do to prevent them. Thus, they argue to forgo the law and address people on a personal level.

Let it be said that I do support a form of this argument. Two of my previous articles deal directly with this view. I do whole-heartedly believe that on any issue we should deal with the person and realize the law will make little difference.

That being said, I believe that abortion is a violation of natural law and should therefore be banned. Not that this will stop abortions, but it will certainly limit them and it simply is the right thing to do.

If we apply this logic across the board it simply doesn’t work. Some men are going to rape women no matter what, so why not try to address these men on a personal level and forget about making rape illegal? What about murder, child abuse, or any other list of crimes? This is not a slippery-slope argument; this is taking the way of thinking for this one issue and applying it to other issues. When we do this it fails.

Instead, as Christians, we should be reaching out to these women while trying to ban the practice of abortion. The two are not mutually exclusive.

4) “It’s not my calling as a Christian to change the law or to make the lost behave like Christians.”

There might be some merit to this argument, but this still wouldn’t support a Christian being pro-choice. In fact, a Christian that wanted to consistently hold to this belief would simply have to cease voting or holding any opinion on politics.

Even if we are not supposed to hold political sway we simply cannot say we are pro-choice. To say you are pro-choice is to say you believe a woman holds the right to kill her own child. Let that sink in for a bit. Should we honestly believe or teach that something is wrong, that abortion is really the act of taking a human life, but then turn around and argue that someone has a right to do this?

Overall, I would argue that it is simply illogical for a Christian to claim Christ and the pro-choice agenda. It is inconsistent – one cannot denounce abortion as wrong (because it takes a human life), but then argue a woman has a right to have an abortion. This is a logically inconsistent view. If one wanted to be consistent then one would have to apply this to rape, murder, theft, and a host of other crimes. All of these crimes violate the rights of other people and create victims, as does abortion. Instead, Christians are called to speak out against all violent acts that unjustly end the life of a human being. We should not teach that a person has the right to have a choice when it comes to unjustly harming another human. In the end, a Christian cannot support the pro-Choice agenda.

Duane Morse
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:00 AM
Christ is pro-choice.

You are free to accept Him, or not.

We have been given free will by God.
Who is anyone to take that choice away?


I agree that abortion is wrong. It is an abomination.

However, that should not preclude the right of any individual to make their own free choice in the matter.

ddmor
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:05 AM
Our laws say it is the right of every woman to have an abortion, if she wants one.

Just because our laws gives a person a 'right', doesn't mean that God does. We can give everyone the right to jump off buildings and fly if they want to, but natural law precludes this because we don't have wings. IF we fly we need to pay an airplane to fly us to a destination. So I do understand what you're saying - what the people who are pro-choice don't understand/acknowledge is that last step - even if we give them the right, it is still breaking a law (God's law).

I spent some time manning a Right to Life booth at the fair this last week, our theme this year was Civil rights - and our question to get people to think was: When do babies get their civil rights? (I was told that the presidential candidates were just asked this question recently, did anyone happen to see it? or hear it? we liked the question and so incorporated it into our spiel). This year I was surprised more young teenagers (13 - 15 year olds) came into the booth to talk to us. And most were willing to hear what we were saying.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:59 PM
Christ is pro-choice.

You are free to accept Him, or not.

We have been given free will by God.
Who is anyone to take that choice away?


I agree that abortion is wrong. It is an abomination.

However, that should not preclude the right of any individual to make their own free choice in the matter.

This is over-spiritualizing the issue. Though God allows us to either follow Him or not follow Him, the Government must put certain laws up.

As stated in the article (which you ignore), there are certain things that must also be allowed under your line of thinking.

Let me ask you - should we do away with all laws since they create a prohibition on a certain act?

DDmor,


I spent some time manning a Right to Life booth at the fair this last week, our theme this year was Civil rights - and our question to get people to think was: When do babies get their civil rights? (I was told that the presidential candidates were just asked this question recently, did anyone happen to see it? or hear it? we liked the question and so incorporated it into our spiel). This year I was surprised more young teenagers (13 - 15 year olds) came into the booth to talk to us. And most were willing to hear what we were saying.

The big trend in Hollywood right now is to create pro-life themed movies (generally comedies, but Bella was pretty legitimate). I think this is (hopefully) affecting the younger culture.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 01:53 PM
Christ is pro-choice.

You are free to accept Him, or not.

We have been given free will by God.
Who is anyone to take that choice away?


I agree that abortion is wrong. It is an abomination.

However, that should not preclude the right of any individual to make their own free choice in the matter.

Do you feel the same way about other laws? Should any individual make their own free choice as to wether they kill their neighbor? Or should the law afford some protection and consequenses to the act?
How about killing born babies? Is it okay for the mother to take a sharp instrument and stab the baby in the back of the head, should she have her "own free choice in the matter"?

This is the question no "pro-choice" Christian is ever willing to answer....NOT EVER.
I wonder why. :hmm:

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:09 PM
apothanein kerdos said,


In light of this, though there are other acts that are important and should be dealt with, ethically speaking abortion is the greatest unethical act allowed by law, thus it should be the number one issue when going to the voting booth. This is not to say the other issues aren’t important, but simply that they are not as important as that of abortion.

As Christians, we should be able to walk and chew gum, as it were. Other issues are important, but if life isn't the number one issue, I can't understand why the others should matter. Even the founding fathers new that all rights has to start with "life"; "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".



Overall, I would argue that it is simply illogical for a Christian to claim Christ and the pro-choice agenda. It is inconsistent – one cannot denounce abortion as wrong (because it takes a human life), but then argue a woman has a right to have an abortion. This is a logically inconsistent view. If one wanted to be consistent then one would have to apply this to rape, murder, theft, and a host of other crimes. All of these crimes violate the rights of other people and create victims, as does abortion. Instead, Christians are called to speak out against all violent acts that unjustly end the life of a human being. We should not teach that a person has the right to have a choice when it comes to unjustly harming another human. In the end, a Christian cannot support the pro-Choice agenda.

How will Jesus view our stand? This is what motivates me, how does the Lord view abortion?
Did God not create the womb for His purposes? Does the word not say that our bodies are not our own?
All human beings are created in HIS IMAGE.
How that escapes the minds of some is beyond my understanding.

Great post, AK and a timely reminder with the upcoming elections.

Buzzword
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:12 PM
Our laws say it is the right of every woman to have an abortion, if she wants one.

Just because our laws gives a person a 'right', doesn't mean that God does. We can give everyone the right to jump off buildings and fly if they want to, but natural law precludes this because we don't have wings. IF we fly we need to pay an airplane to fly us to a destination. So I do understand what you're saying - what the people who are pro-choice don't understand/acknowledge is that last step - even if we give them the right, it is still breaking a law (God's law).

But is it the right of any government to legislate any individual's interpretation of God's law?
We've already seen what trying to legislate morality does in America (see Prohibition), so why do people still try to get their personal interpretations of scripture and Christian traditions passed into law?


Do you feel the same way about other laws? Should any individual make their own free choice as to wether they kill their neighbor? Or should the law afford some protection and consequenses to the act?
How about killing born babies? Is it okay for the mother to take a sharp instrument and stab the baby in the back of the head, should she have her "own free choice in the matter"?

This is the question no "pro-choice" Christian is ever willing to answer....NOT EVER.
I wonder why. :hmm:

Your question is inadequate.
Your examples cite killing autonomous creatures residing outside the individual's body.

Also, the CURRENT law gives the right to choose, so your insinuation that having an abortion ignores the law for the sake of convenience falls through.

A pro-choice Christian just answered your question willingly.

Vhayes
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:15 PM
I think everyone is missing a crucial point here. There is no current law against abortion. There are laws against killing, what the world terms, infants. There are laws against rape, etc.

Work to change the law. Work to supply viable options to these women.

However, I do have a question - everyone is hyped up on the President and his appointments to the Supreme Court. I understand that. But how long will it take to GET to the Supreme Court? Does anyone know whether or not the lesser courts will even hear an argument regarding Roe v. Wade?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I am sincerely asking.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 02:18 PM
But is it the right of any government to legislate any individual's interpretation of God's law?
We've already seen what trying to legislate morality does in America (see Prohibition), so why do people still try to get their personal interpretations of scripture and Christian traditions passed into law?

But, we all ready do legislate morality and have been for hundreds of years.
Thou shall not murder, steal, etc...are laws on the books.
Perhaps those aren't moral issues to you?




Your question is inadequate.
Your examples cite killing autonomous creatures residing outside the individual's body.

No sir, the question is not inadequate, since when is "location" any criteria for allowable murder?
And your statement ignores that all are created in the image of God and that our bodies are not our own.


Also, the CURRENT law gives the right to choose, so your insinuation that having an abortion ignores the law for the sake of convenience falls through.

No one is arguing what the current law says, only that the current law is mis-guided to say the least.


A pro-choice Christian just answered your question willingly.

Thank you. You're the first.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:02 PM
Ok.... not to underanalyze this subject....but lets look at something here.....

Lets analyze the criteria for being a Christian.....

1. Believe in the following:

a. The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ
b. That Christ was persecuted
c. That Christ was crucified for our sins
d. That three days later He rose again defeating death.

Notice nowhere in there does it say that we have to be "pro" anything......

The ONLY requirement is that we believe in Jesus Christ......

Now since we have discovered the requirements of faith.....

Anything beyond believing that Christ truly was the Messiah is PERSONAL beliefs/theology.

Its just like choosing which denomination you choose to worship at. (Im not making light Im just making a comparison.)

Christ states that the ONLY way to the Father is THROUGH Him....no where does He state that we have to support or condone anything.

The point Im trying to make is that yes you can be a Christian and be pro-CHOICE....... notice I didnt use the term pro-abortion.

You dont HAVE to be in support of abortion to be pro choice.

All we are saying is that (as Duane Morse stated) God allows us free will and we are allowed to make our own decisions. Now understanding that if a person chooses to have an abortion in the end that is between them and God....not us.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:11 PM
I think everyone is missing a crucial point here. There is no current law against abortion. There are laws against killing, what the world terms, infants. There are laws against rape, etc.

Work to change the law. Work to supply viable options to these women.

However, I do have a question - everyone is hyped up on the President and his appointments to the Supreme Court. I understand that. But how long will it take to GET to the Supreme Court? Does anyone know whether or not the lesser courts will even hear an argument regarding Roe v. Wade?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I am sincerely asking.

Thank you Brother! You hit the nail on the head......

Thats the problem people. It is almost next to impossible for the average American family to adopt a child today. Im not sure of the cost but Im positive it is beyond anything that the common middle class american family could afford.

That is the first thing that needs to be worked on. Making it so that a loving couple who may not have a LOT of money but would be a great set of parents are able to adopt a child.

Another option is giving some sort of added assistance to a family that adopts an older child.

Why is it that there is outrage over abortion (whilch I am against by the way.....Im just for the choice being left with the responsible party....not you and I when we arent involved at all...) and yet no outrage over the thousands (possibly millions?) of children in orphanages today that have no chance of a life that involves a family?

Let me ask all of you something....all of you that are against abortion that is......

Would you right now be willing to adopt the child that would be aborted if the personal cost to you was say$200,000? Would you pay that money to be able to adopt that child?

I know I sure couldnt afford that payment...... so that being said if I can't truly do anything to actually fix the situation (and not sit here and scream about how abortion should just be made illegal) I cant in my right mind tell someone else that they are not allowed to do what they feel in their heart is the right thing to do in their circumstance. We dont live these people's lives so who are we to condemn them and not try to actually fix the system that causes them to have an abortion?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 03:18 PM
Do you feel the same way about other laws? Should any individual make their own free choice as to wether they kill their neighbor? Or should the law afford some protection and consequenses to the act?
How about killing born babies? Is it okay for the mother to take a sharp instrument and stab the baby in the back of the head, should she have her "own free choice in the matter"?

This is the question no "pro-choice" Christian is ever willing to answer....NOT EVER.
I wonder why. :hmm:

People DO have the right to make the choices you listed about my friend.

This is the part of the argument that I think is being forgot.....

On sunday I will have my son...... Now using your example I could choose to stab him in the back of the head and end his life......

But.....I would also have to live with the consequences of my choice.

I could go out tonite and get comepletely smashed and drive home and possibly kill many people...... again I would have to live with the consequences of my desicion.

Guess what???? These wo things are illegal under US law.....BUT I CAN STILL CHOOSE TO DO THEM.....

Now say we make abortion illegal....... you got it! People can still CHOOSE to get them done......and have to deal with the consequences of their actions.....

KATA_LOUKAN
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
“It’s not my calling as a Christian to change the law or to make the lost behave like Christians.”

I'm pro-life, but I think that too many pro-life Christians do not effectively sell their argument.

It isn't enough to outlaw abortion. First of all, it will probably never be outlawed nationwide. Women will risk a trip to Illinois or California or New York to get an abortion.

Single mothers must receive better government care (yeah, welfare is out of control, but it needs to be done). This is not to say crisis pregnancy centers do not care for women. They are extremely generous from what I gather. This criticism is against our policy makers. The nation with the lowest rates of abortion is, surprisingly, the Netherlands. It also has the best care for single mothers.

The second mistake is not promoting more birth control. Since the pro-life movement is dominated by Catholics, they will not promote birth control. It is simple- reduce conceptions, reduce abortions. Of course, Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. should have their religious authorities teach them respect for human life and to abstain from sex. However, for those who choose to reject the Christian sexual ethic, birth control must be taught to them, because they will be the most likely to get an abortion, as well.

flybaby
Aug 22nd 2008, 07:16 PM
I am pro-lfie and I would be willing to take in a baby today who would have otherwise been aborted. But I can't afford the $200,000 mentioned in a post above. I couldn't even afford $20,000 unless it was payments made over a vast amount of time.

So yes, that is a big problem here in the US. The cost of adoption is too high and the cost of abortion too low. And yet, the emotional cost is just the opposite!

I can't even begin to imagine what a woman must go through to feel she must make the choice of abortion. Well, yes, I suppose I can imagine because I did find myself unmarried and pregnant 6 years ago. I didn't know what I was going to do. But I also had options - I knew I had options and the option I ended up with was marrying my baby's daddy and now we are happily married with three children.

So, I have a hard time knowing what the answer is to this delimna. The "simple" answer would be just to outlaw abortions, but there must be an alternative. An alternative that is actually available and affordable to all the participants!!!

Prayer - that is the biggest thing we can do right now. Pray for the changes not only in the laws of abortion, but also in the adoption proceedings, making it more available. But even moreso, pray for a heart change in those that we personally know are contemplating such a thing.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:20 PM
Most of the arguments in opposition are actually dealt with in the article, but I'll respond anyway.


But is it the right of any government to legislate any individual's interpretation of God's law?
We've already seen what trying to legislate morality does in America (see Prohibition), so why do people still try to get their personal interpretations of scripture and Christian traditions passed into law?

All laws are the legislation of morality. All laws dictate that something is right or something is wrong and that if we don't do what is right or if we do what is wrong there will be consequences for it. Even menial laws are still a legislation of some form of reality. At the moment we say something is right or wrong, that people can or cannot engage in an activity, and that consequences can follow for violating an ethic, we have made a moral statement.

We have to understand, as Christians, that there are natural laws and spiritual laws. If a law is apparent in nature then natural man can (and should) follow it (e.g. murder is wrong, theft is wrong, rape is wrong). If it's not obvious in nature and can only be known through revelation (e.g. God is Trinity, Christ died for our sins) then we shouldn't legislate it. Yes, this becomes a sticky issue, but it doesn't negate this is the best standard.

Finally, why won't anyone answer the following question?

Why do we support legislation that prohibits rape and murder?

If it's not our job to legislate morality (which, of course, is redundant) then why do we support laws that prohibit certain immoral acts?

I really won't respond to the rest because none of them deal with the article. One of the arguments is the individual is inside the body - but this was handled in the article.

Not surprisingly no one has dealt with the substance of the post.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:30 PM
Just to prove my point that no one is addressing the content of the post, but simply espousing pre-recited thoughts:


Your examples cite killing autonomous creatures residing outside the individual's body.

Article said:

This way of thinking assumes too much - it assumes that we can do whatever we want to our bodies without having a communal consequence. However, there are times where what I do to my body will inevitably affect those around me (i.e. if I inject myself with an airborne disease, because it will harm those around me I do not have the right to do such a thing). Almost everyone would argue that if we take an action against our body that negatively affects others, that action shouldn’t be taken.



In this case, the child in the womb is ontologically separate from the mother, though reliant. That is to say, the child really isn’t part of the mother’s body. The mother plays host to the body. If a guest comes into your house, eats your food, drinks your water, and sleeps in your bed, does that guest belong to you? Of course not - the guest, though reliant upon you, is not a part of who you are.



The counter to the above argument is that the baby, especially early on, is made up of cells provided by the mother. This is true, but completely irrelevant. No female can spontaneously produce a child without any fertilization from a male. This means that the baby isn’t entirely made up of the mother’s cells, which would seem to indicate that the child in the womb isn’t really part of the mother’s body (in the same way an arm, heart, or lung is part of the mother’s body).



All of this means that the child growing within the mother is really a body inside a body and not just an extension of the mother’s body. It contains foreign matter (via sperm) that is not natural to the mother’s body. If that is true, an abortion is an act that is taken out on the mother’s body that severely affects the child (through death). This would mean that abortion is highly immoral since it is a selfish action that harms an innocent party.


All we are saying is that (as Duane Morse stated) God allows us free will and we are allowed to make our own decisions. Now understanding that if a person chooses to have an abortion in the end that is between them and God....not us.

Article says:

Even if we are not supposed to hold political sway we simply cannot say we are pro-choice. To say you are pro-choice is to say you believe a woman holds the right to kill her own child. Let that sink in for a bit. Should we honestly believe or teach that something is wrong, that abortion is really the act of taking a human life, but then turn around and argue that someone has a right to do this?


Would you right now be willing to adopt the child that would be aborted if the personal cost to you was say$200,000? Would you pay that money to be able to adopt that child?

I know I sure couldnt afford that payment...... so that being said if I can't truly do anything to actually fix the situation (and not sit here and scream about how abortion should just be made illegal) I cant in my right mind tell someone else that they are not allowed to do what they feel in their heart is the right thing to do in their circumstance. We dont live these people's lives so who are we to condemn them and not try to actually fix the system that causes them to have an abortion?

From another article I wrote on the issue:

If abortions were discontinued, it is true that some of these children would grow up in poverty. According to this study, about 28% of abortions come from the lower class income bracket (in the United States). 19% are from the lower-middle, but an astonishing 51% occur in the middle to upper-middle class income bracket.

What the above statistics show is that some children would be born into homes of poverty, but 51% would be born into homes where the median income is anywhere from $30,000 - $60,000 a year. Though this doesn’t promise a life of luxury, it does show that these children would not be born into poverty.

With the statistics aside, however, I sometimes wonder if anyone notices the elitism in this argument. It assumes that a life born into poverty and hardship is simply a life not worth living. By saying, “The mother wouldn’t be able to afford the child,” we are essentially saying, “it’s better to be dead than to be poor.” If this is the case, under this same mentality, we can justify infanticide for children in poverty stricken homes. In fact, if need be, we can even kill off the homeless population out of compassion - if the homeless person is too crazy to hold a stable job, then it is better to liquidate him than allow him to continue a life of poverty. After all, it is better to die than to be poor.

Toymom
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:33 PM
Lets analyze the criteria for being a Christian.....

Notice nowhere in there does it say that we have to be "pro" anything......

The ONLY requirement is that we believe in Jesus Christ......

Christ states that the ONLY way to the Father is THROUGH Him....no where does He state that we have to support or condone anything.

The point Im trying to make is that yes you can be a Christian and be pro-CHOICE....... notice I didnt use the term pro-abortion.

You dont HAVE to be in support of abortion to be pro choice.

All we are saying is that God allows us free will and we are allowed to make our own decisions. Now understanding that if a person chooses to have an abortion in the end that is between them and God....not us.
Exactly. Being a Christian is a simple thing and specific political and other views are not a requirement.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 08:50 PM
Exactly. Being a Christian is a simple thing and specific political and other views are not a requirement.

Exactly! You can proclaim the name of Jesus, but hate black people, be for race driven slavery, promote genocide against lesser races, push to legalize rape because women are inferior, and not worry about any of this affecting your faith or being inconsistent with your view of God as creator of humanity! :pp
:rolleyes:

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:29 PM
Exactly! You can proclaim the name of Jesus, but hate black people, be for race driven slavery, promote genocide against lesser races, push to legalize rape because women are inferior, and not worry about any of this affecting your faith or being inconsistent with your view of God as creator of humanity! :pp
:rolleyes:

Yep.

How nice to be able to "just believe" while lifestyle and what we support goes by the way side...surely God will wink at the 50 million children that have been killed legally since 1973. :o

Wonder if any of those 50 million had been thought of before the foundation of the world...oh wait, all of them were!
Wonder if any of them had been in the mind of God and created with a purpose...oh wait, they all did.

Not one of them were able to live to see the light of day nor what God had in store for them....someone is going to answer for that, make NO MISTAKE.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:31 PM
People DO have the right to make the choices you listed about my friend.

This is the part of the argument that I think is being forgot.....

On sunday I will have my son...... Now using your example I could choose to stab him in the back of the head and end his life......

But.....I would also have to live with the consequences of my choice.

I could go out tonite and get comepletely smashed and drive home and possibly kill many people...... again I would have to live with the consequences of my desicion.

Guess what???? These wo things are illegal under US law.....BUT I CAN STILL CHOOSE TO DO THEM.....

Now say we make abortion illegal....... you got it! People can still CHOOSE to get them done......and have to deal with the consequences of their actions.....

And how does one single word of this explain why abortion should be legal?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:40 PM
And how does one single word of this explain why abortion should be legal?

It all comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE and responsibility.......

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:41 PM
It all comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE and responsibility.......

What it boils down to is you keep saying this, but you haven't been able to deal with the arguments against this (now defeated) ideology.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
It all comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE and responsibility.......

:B

How does it explain why abortion should be legal?

If abortion can be legal and it all comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE and responsibility, why do we have any laws because ALL laws come down to the same thing.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:44 PM
Yep.

How nice to be able to "just believe" while lifestyle and what we support goes by the way side...surely God will wink at the 50 million children that have been killed legally since 1973. :o

Wonder if any of those 50 million had been thought of before the foundation of the world...oh wait, all of them were!
Wonder if any of them had been in the mind of God and created with a purpose...oh wait, they all did.

Not one of them were able to live to see the light of day nor what God had in store for them....someone is going to answer for that, make NO MISTAKE.

Ok..... Im going to get to the point very quickly here...... if I come across as coarse I apologize BUT.......

Is any of this truly going to affect my salvation? Your salvation?

Each of us is given a ministry in which we feel compelled to make a change.... while yours is this mine is working with teenage mothers teaching them that the shame and guilt they are given (lots of time from "Christians") is not their fault and that there is a future for them.....

I do not feel overly concerned about this as I have said before.... it is a personal choice as to what a person does....it is our job as a church to lift those people up afterward.....

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:44 PM
What it boils down to is you keep saying this, but you haven't been able to deal with the arguments against this (now defeated) ideology.

I have a headache from this: :B ;)

Why have any laws, I'd really like an answer to that one....suppose we'll ever get it?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:46 PM
Ok..... Im going to get to the point very quickly here...... if I come across as coarse I apologize BUT.......

Is any of this truly going to affect my salvation? Your salvation?

Each of us is given a ministry in which we feel compelled to make a change.... while yours is this mine is working with teenage mothers teaching them that the shame and guilt they are given (lots of time from "Christians") is not their fault and that there is a future for them.....

I do not feel overly concerned about this as I have said before.... it is a personal choice as to what a person does....it is our job as a church to lift those people up afterward.....

You, sir, have perfected the art of responding without responding. ;)

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:46 PM
Ok..... Im going to get to the point very quickly here...... if I come across as coarse I apologize BUT.......

Is any of this truly going to affect my salvation? Your salvation?

Each of us is given a ministry in which we feel compelled to make a change.... while yours is this mine is working with teenage mothers teaching them that the shame and guilt they are given (lots of time from "Christians") is not their fault and that there is a future for them.....

I do not feel overly concerned about this as I have said before.... it is a personal choice as to what a person does....it is our job as a church to lift those people up afterward.....

How nice for you, the people you minister to are alive...I'm trying to get them to you in one piece.

And yes, I truly believe this will affect my salvation, oh yes sir, I sure do.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:50 PM
It's a personal choice to rape. Why don't we legalize rape?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:53 PM
:B

How does it explain why abortion should be legal?

If abortion can be legal and it all comes down to PERSONAL CHOICE and responsibility, why do we have any laws because ALL laws come down to the same thing.

I realize what you want me to say.... you want EVERYONE to become pro-life..... well the thing is in the Kingdom we are not all the same.... we all have different things that different folks care about.....

Now I would like you to answer me something...... are you going to adopt all these children? Or should they be born and live a life in an orphanage.....
You dont get it do you lady? I dont support abortion.....what I want to see (and what will fix this whole problem) is come up with programs that will help keep people out of this position....... be it sex education (Yes Im now promoting the teaching of sex ed in school how un christian of me) in High School....true sex ed.... having young teenage mother in the classroom showing these kids what happens day to day having a child at 16. Or any other program that teaches these kids that getting pregnant is not a good idea....

You want to know what really pisses me off about the Church? Its people like all of you...... "Oh we have to make abortion illegal......." but how many times have you thought about having a teenage mother talk to the youth (teens obviously) about what her life is like? Would you allow that in your church? Probably not.......

And people wonder why this stuff keeps happening....... lets take an head in the sand approach to everything....if we dont talk to our kids about sex then they will never hear about it...... God forbid we be PARENTS and actually sit our kids down and talk to them straight about sex and babies and STD's......nope cant do that in the church....

Lets get to the ROOT of the problem people..... not just keep putting the same tired old band-aid on this issue.......

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:55 PM
How nice for you, the people you minister to are alive...I'm trying to get them to you in one piece.

And yes, I truly believe this will affect my salvation, oh yes sir, I sure do.


So if I dont single handedly stop abortion in this country Im going to hell?

Wow.......

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:55 PM
I'm pro-life, but I think that too many pro-life Christians do not effectively sell their argument.

I don't want to sell anything, this is a life and death issue, why should it matter how it is "sold"?
Shouldn't it be enough that children are being killed to the tune of 4,000 per day to know it is wrong?
Do we have to sell the eivls of rape, murder of the born, etc.?


It isn't enough to outlaw abortion. First of all, it will probably never be outlawed nationwide. Women will risk a trip to Illinois or California or New York to get an abortion.

The countless ones that will be saved if it's outlawed will think it's plenty enough.
And just as important, to have it outlawed tells God we do appreciate the sanctiy of life and that YOU, Lord alone are to give and take life. We are NOT to usurp Your authority and we reconize that.


Single mothers must receive better government care (yeah, welfare is out of control, but it needs to be done). This is not to say crisis pregnancy centers do not care for women. They are extremely generous from what I gather. This criticism is against our policy makers. The nation with the lowest rates of abortion is, surprisingly, the Netherlands. It also has the best care for single mothers.

Good, good, but none of the above should give another license to kill a child in the womb.


The second mistake is not promoting more birth control. Since the pro-life movement is dominated by Catholics, they will not promote birth control. It is simple- reduce conceptions, reduce abortions. Of course, Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. should have their religious authorities teach them respect for human life and to abstain from sex. However, for those who choose to reject the Christian sexual ethic, birth control must be taught to them, because they will be the most likely to get an abortion, as well.

Fine, good too....but, let's just stop killing the children.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:57 PM
So if I dont single handedly stop abortion in this country Im going to hell?

Wow.......

That is not what I said.

It would be nice if you would argue the points as given instead of hyperbole.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:58 PM
What it boils down to is you keep saying this, but you haven't been able to deal with the arguments against this (now defeated) ideology.

So your claim is that we(as humans -- created in God's image) have NO free will?

So that means were on the same level as the animals?

You know wwhat....... it comes down to this.....

People like you want to make abortion illegal.....thats cool....

People like me on the other hand want to get deeper and by using procedures that will actually affect people solve the root of the problem.....

Now..... that being said....again I ask you to show me Scripture that says I am to be "my brother's keeper".......

JesusPhreak27
Aug 22nd 2008, 09:59 PM
That is not what I said.

It would be nice if you would argue the points as given instead of hyperbole.

Your words were that this topic (abortion) affects salvation......

Explain this please......

apothanein kerdos
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:30 PM
Phreak,

Can you actually respond to the topic without creating a strawman? You keep asking questions, but won't answer them and wont' deal with the original post. The OP actually has already responded to the arguments you keep bringing up.

You support a mother's choice to murder her own child. Do you support a man's choice to rape his own daughter?

EarlyCall
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:58 PM
The supreme court thirty-five years ago decided that where no right existed one was there all the time and so mere men declared women had the right to an abortion. Now we have Christians declaring their right.

It was wicked men on the supreme court that conjured up this right that was never there nor ever before recognized. Their wickedness to be sure drove them to this. To defy God and permit the taking of innocent life.

On what do you Christians base your defense of a woman's right? The siding with these evil men perhaps? Or is it maybe the word of God by which you claim women have this right?

Is this one of our unalienable rights our founders spoke of? Those are rights given by God. Are you claiming the right of a woman to have an abortion comes from God?

On what grounds did the supreme court determine women had this right? Can you defend that? Would you defend it using God and His word please.

Could you argue this in God's presence? If not, perhaps it is a good thing He is far away at the moment because you are arguing it here and now.

If you did argue a woman's right to an abortion before God in His very presence, what would you say to Him and how would you defend this if He offered any disagreement with you?

And finally, are you one of those that claim they would not obey any law of the land if it went against God's word or God Himself? Interesting. And yet here you are defending one of them.

Athanasius
Aug 22nd 2008, 11:20 PM
Here, let me [over] 'spiritualize' the issue.

Matthew 22:37-39
And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

The above verse seems obvious enough, so why have I posted it? Well, I've posted it because I think this of the verse: the second commandment is an outworking of the first commandment. I'm not going to know if you're really loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. But I am going to know if you're loving your neighbor. If you're following the second command, chances are you're following the first. If you're not following the second command, chances are you aren't following the first.

Did anyone want to tell me, then. How a Christian can be pro-abortion but still love God?

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:25 AM
You support a mother's choice to murder her own child. Do you support a man's choice to rape his own daughter?
One more time...

It is against the law for a man to rape his daughter. It is not against the law for a woman to have an abortion.

Apples and oranges - especially to an unbeliever.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:31 AM
One more time...

It is against the law for a man to rape his daughter. It is not against the law for a woman to have an abortion.

Apples and oranges - especially to an unbeliever.

You're missing the point.

The argument is being made that we should leave it up to the woman to make the choice. My argument is why don't we apply this logic to a father raping his daughter? Why can't that be left up to his choice as well? Why is it okay to pass a law against that, but not okay to pass a law against abortion?

Once again....

No one has dealt with the OP. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:32 AM
Here, let me [over] 'spiritualize' the issue.

Matthew 22:37-39
And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

The above verse seems obvious enough, so why have I posted it? Well, I've posted it because I think this of the verse: the second commandment is an outworking of the first commandment. I'm not going to know if you're really loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. But I am going to know if you're loving your neighbor. If you're following the second command, chances are you're following the first. If you're not following the second command, chances are you aren't following the first.

Did anyone want to tell me, then. How a Christian can be pro-abortion but still love God?


Be prepared to have this excellent post completely ignored. Apparently the pro-choice crowd doesn't feel like they have to answer any questions or deal with the arguments against their position.

ilovemetal
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:37 AM
Here, let me [over] 'spiritualize' the issue.

Matthew 22:37-39
And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

The above verse seems obvious enough, so why have I posted it? Well, I've posted it because I think this of the verse: the second commandment is an outworking of the first commandment. I'm not going to know if you're really loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. But I am going to know if you're loving your neighbor. If you're following the second command, chances are you're following the first. If you're not following the second command, chances are you aren't following the first.

Did anyone want to tell me, then. How a Christian can be pro-abortion but still love God?

hah i love the way you put things.

and btw this whole topic is so confusing for me. i thought it was 'don't kill'. abortion is killing. whats the problem.....debate over.

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:42 AM
Be prepared to have this excellent post completely ignored. Apparently the pro-choice crowd doesn't feel like they have to answer any questions or deal with the arguments against their position.
What is it that people have not answered? I thought most of your posts had been responded to.

As far as how can we say we love God if we are "pro-abortion" as the OP stated, I don't think anyone has said they are "pro-abortion". The OP needs to read the thread all the way through.

I would also like to say that I find the title to this thread insulting. Who are you to blithly declare whether or not I am a Christian? Seriously.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:51 AM
What is it that people have not answered? I thought most of your posts had been responded to.

As far as how can we say we love God if we are "pro-abortion" as the OP stated, I don't think anyone has said they are "pro-abortion". The OP needs to read the thread all the way through.

I would also like to say that I find the title to this thread insulting. Who are you to blithly declare whether or not I am a Christian? Seriously.

No one has responded to the OP at all. It doesn't matter if you find it offensive or insulting - it's a fact. One simply cannot both be a Christian AND be pro-choice. One cannot proclaim the name of Christ and turn around and defend a woman's right to kill her own child.

ilovemetal
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:55 AM
No one has responded to the OP at all. It doesn't matter if you find it offensive or insulting - it's a fact. One simply cannot both be a Christian AND be pro-choice. One cannot proclaim the name of Christ and turn around and defend a woman's right to kill her own child.

yeah. sad but true. i fully agree with this. it would be like legalizing stealing, because some poeple choose to steal. that's illogical. morally, [abortion] it's killing, morally, we should not support it. no?

LadyinWaiting
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:55 AM
VHayes - I think the issue comes up with the fact that it should be against the law. While it may be apples and oranges, it's still a heinous act.

I do understand the hesitation many feel about feeling as if by banning abortions you'd be forcing a lost world to obey Christian standards. However, basic morality is found even in those who are athiests. Those people still feel it's wrong for a person to stab another to death. We don't have a problem condemning that act outright. It may not be the job of our government to "legislate morality," but we do it every day. We don't allow a person (lost or otherwise) to murder, steal, rape, defame, assault or harass another person. All of those are moral issues that are legislated. Why is it that this one issue becomes a "thing" that we cannot tell others?

Is it because we don't want to force our belief of when life begins to others? Is it because we don't want to tell another what they can do with their own bodies? We tell people what they can and can't ingest (drugs, etc.) or when they can ingest it. We force parents to send their kids to school or get arrested. We don't even allow people the ability to say "I don't think the government deserves my hard-earned money" without the chance of being thrown in prison. Why is it so important to allow someone to terminate a pregnancy? Why is it the rights of the mother we worry about? What about the rights of the father of that child? If that child were born and he ran out on it, he'd be legally, financially and morally responsible even IF he didn't want a child. However, if the father WANTS the child, the mother is given preference to her desires and wishes.

Logically, it's flawed. Logically it doesn't fit for other reasons.

Third trimester abortions are banned in nearly all areas of the US (some slip through the cracks). So, that only applies to months 9, 8 and 7. At 6 months gestation, a baby's chance of survival after birth is low, but possible. However, that same EXACT child could be aborted one moment before it is prematurely born. So, the difference between a legal abortion and an illegal murder is literally one second (the second after birth).

Where do we draw the line? When does an unborn child develop rights to its own life?

I know it seems harsh to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do, but as Christians we do have a responsibility to change what we can. Now, legislation alone won't do it. If we can convince the population of the ethics surrounding the issue, we'd make more strides.

However, I cannot in good conscience call myself "Pro-Choice" when I am NOT in favor of a woman having a choice over whether or not to have a baby BEYOND her ability to choose not to have intercourse or to protect herself through a contraceptive device of some sort.

Just my thoughts though.

EarlyCall
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:56 AM
One more time...

It is against the law for a man to rape his daughter. It is not against the law for a woman to have an abortion.

Apples and oranges - especially to an unbeliever.

Didn't the supreme court decide in favor of abortion as having something to do with the right of privacy? How is it raping one's own daughter (God forbid) would not fall under the same reasoning? Can you explain that please? If you can, other than to simply dismiss it, then I will consider that the two are apples and oranges as you claim.

It seems to me, as I said, the supreme court merely conjured up this right. As for raping one's own daughter, well, I think it is still yet considered too repulsive whereas abortion no longer was. And there is the real difference.

So at this point, I do not agree it is apples and oranges.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:59 AM
yeah. sad but true. i fully agree with this. it would be like legalizing stealing, because some poeple choose to steal. that's illogical. morally, it's killing, morally, we should not support it. no?

Exactly. It boils down to "natural law" and "spiritual law." Spiritual laws cannot be deducted from nature - they can only be understood through illumination by the Holy Spirit via the Bible.

Natural laws, however, can be known by natural man. Murder is one of these natural laws that almost all societies, throughout time, have declared as wrong. It can be deducted from nature that murder is wrong. Therefore, we should support laws against murder - abortion being one of these.

I would venture to argue that those who are pro-choice don't actually believe the child in the womb is human.

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:07 AM
I will post this as my final post to this thread:
From Wikipedia quoted from Francis Shaeffer’s “A Christian Manifesto”


State officials must know that we are serious about stopping abortion,...First, we must make definite that we are in no way talking about any kind of theocracy. Let me say that with great emphasis. Witherspoon, Jefferson, the American Founders had no idea of a theocracy. That is made plain by the First Amendment, and we must continually emphasize the fact that we are not talking about some kind, or any kind, of a theocracy.

Please read this and then read through this and the countless other "abortion" threads.

I have advocated CHANGING THE LAW. Repeatedly.

As long as it is legal (right OR wrong) we as Christians have no right to judge these (predominantly unbelieving) women. Period.

When unbelievers start hearing "We must stop this - we must stop that - we must stop the other" they see the people who want to make wearing gynmastic tights illegal; they see the folks who would outlaw anything but the King James version of the Bible, they see the folks who say anyone who would vote for Obama has been given over to a reprobate mind and is hell bound. And they are afraid.

Change the law - work to create viable options. That, to me, is love in action.

Thanks -
V

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:10 AM
I will post this as my final post to this thread:
From Wikipedia quoted from Francis Shaeffer’s “A Christian Manifesto”

Please read this and then read through this and the countless other "abortion" threads.

I have advocated CHANGING THE LAW. Repeatedly.

As long as it is legal (right OR wrong) we as Christians have no right to judge these (predominantly unbelieving) women. Period.

When unbelievers start hearing "We must stop this - we must stop that - we must stop the other" they see the people who want to make wearing gynmastic tights illegal; they see the folks who would outlaw anything but the King James version of the Bible, they see the folks who say anyone who would vote for Obama has been given over to a reprobate mind and is hell bound. And they are afraid.

Change the law - work to create viable options. That, to me, is love in action.

Thanks -
V

Then what was your complaint against the OP?

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:15 AM
Exactly. It boils down to "natural law" and "spiritual law." Spiritual laws cannot be deducted from nature - they can only be understood through illumination by the Holy Spirit via the Bible.

Natural laws, however, can be known by natural man. Murder is one of these natural laws that almost all societies, throughout time, have declared as wrong. It can be deducted from nature that murder is wrong. Therefore, we should support laws against murder - abortion being one of these.

I would venture to argue that those who are pro-choice don't actually believe the child in the womb is human.
I lied - make that my next to last post.

Venture away - but you would be wrong.

However, I also believe the 3 year old that is stabbed in the neck, placed in the oven, scalded in the bathtub, repeatedly raped in ways that are unimaginabe, to be human also.

Do you not think that God in His wisdom and omniscience, didn't know how reprobate and unregenerate this earth would become? Do you think the babies who are aborted don't go straight to heaven?

Let's allow God to BE God and ask Him to change hearts, minds, lives and laws. Let's work at showing love instead of condemnation. Let's work at finding solutions instead of calling our brothers and sisters names. Please.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:23 AM
Exactly. Being a Christian is a simple thing and specific political and other views are not a requirement.



No one has responded to the OP at all. It doesn't matter if you find it offensive or insulting - it's a fact. One simply cannot both be a Christian AND be pro-choice. One cannot proclaim the name of Christ and turn around and defend a woman's right to kill her own child.

So, do you claim that anyone who has had, or performed an abortion or supports women's rights to chose to have them are not Christians?
Are you claiming that you personally can judge who and who is not a Christian by their actions or by their political views?

To be a Christian means that I have Christ living in me.
I am still, however, a sinner.
I am being transformed into His image and He is growing more and more in me day by day, but I am still a sinner. I have not yet been glorified with Christ and that will not happen to me or to any other Christian until after the Lord has returned.
As a Christian, I would not have or perform an abortion. I would not suggest nor condone the action either.
I would not chose to murder anyone or to sell illegal drugs.
But, there are some Christians who are indeed Christians who have done all of those things. And there are some who are doing them right now. And they are Christians and Christ forgives and loves them anyway.

It does not make their actions right, but, to be a Christian is not about being right or wrong. That is on the tree of knowledge of good and evil. To be a Christian is about Christ. It is about having Christ in us the hope of glory. As Christians, we are not yet perfect. We are merely being perfected.

As Christians, we should be those who are always rejoicing, unceasingly praying, giving thanks to God in everything and always pursuing Christ.
Do you do those things always?
We should live a life of no longer I, but Christ who lives in me.

Jesus forgave the adulterous woman.
From your posts, it seems that you would not.

We cannot judge who is a Christian by their actions or by their views or state that a Christian should not or cannot do certain things.
We are all on different points in our walk with the Lord.
Some are more mature than others.
Some are less mature.
But, if we have Christ in us, we are Christians, no matter what our views are about abortion or politics or pesticides or whatever.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:23 AM
I lied - make that my next to last post.

Venture away - but you would be wrong.

However, I also believe the 3 year old that is stabbed in the neck, placed in the oven, scalded in the bathtub, repeatedly raped in ways that are unimaginabe, to be human also.

Do you not think that God in His wisdom and omniscience, didn't know how reprobate and unregenerate this earth would become? Do you think the babies who are aborted don't go straight to heaven?

Let's allow God to BE God and ask Him to change hearts, minds, lives and laws. Let's work at showing love instead of condemnation. Let's work at finding solutions instead of calling our brothers and sisters names. Please.
Right, like calling people pseudo-intellectuals and the like. :rolleyes:

Regardless, I don't buy the argument that, "Well God knew it would happen so why try?" Though God has a sovereign Will that the world is ultimately subject to this doesn't alleviate us from our responsibilities.

Was William Wilberforce wrong for making it his mission to eradicate slavery in England? Through his efforts change occurred. This didn't fix all the racial woes, but it did free black people from slavery in the English Empire. Of course not - Wilberforce was completely right in what he did.

Likewise, what is wrong with Christians trying to effect change in the law?

Again, why can't we apply your way of thinking (just rely on God) to ALL laws? Why not revoke these laws since they don't allow for God to change people's hearts?

As a side note: Where have I advocated we judge the women who have abortions? I'm advocating why a Christian can't be pro-choice.

EarlyCall
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:26 AM
I will post this as my final post to this thread:
From Wikipedia quoted from Francis Shaeffer’s “A Christian Manifesto”

Please read this and then read through this and the countless other "abortion" threads.

I have advocated CHANGING THE LAW. Repeatedly.

As long as it is legal (right OR wrong) we as Christians have no right to judge these (predominantly unbelieving) women. Period.

When unbelievers start hearing "We must stop this - we must stop that - we must stop the other" they see the people who want to make wearing gynmastic tights illegal; they see the folks who would outlaw anything but the King James version of the Bible, they see the folks who say anyone who would vote for Obama has been given over to a reprobate mind and is hell bound. And they are afraid.

Change the law - work to create viable options. That, to me, is love in action.

Thanks -
V

I think this has merit.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:28 AM
So, do you claim that anyone who has had, or performed an abortion or supports women's rights to chose to have them are not Christians?
Are you claiming that you personally can judge who and who is not a Christian by their actions or by their political views?

Hooray for non-sequiturs! :pp


I'm saying one cannot be a Christian and support a pro-choice agenda - if one is a Christian and pro-choice at some point the Holy Spirit will force the person to wise up. A person that does not 'wise up,' however, I question if that person is truly a Christian. How can someone support a woman's right to kill her own child, yet claim to love the God who created that child? Applying it to similar situations - how can a Christian be pro-war (that is, in all circumstances no matter the justification), but turn around and claim to love God?

Our beliefs have to ultimately match God's desires. If they don't then we should question if we were ever truly saved.

A woman who has an abortion and is a Christian doesn't have her salvation negated (I don't believe it is possible for Christians to lose their salvation). If she is truly saved she will be convicted for what she did and her relationship with God will suffer greatly. In His sovereignty He will restore that relationship with her and use her evil act for His good, but this doesn't excuse her act.

Surprisingly enough I don't guilt the mothers as much as I guilt the pro-choice crowd that enables the mother to get an abortion. One simply cannot hold to certain ideologies and claim the name of Christ - there are certain beliefs that are mutually exclusive to being a child of God.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:39 AM
I'm saying one cannot be a Christian and support a pro-choice agenda - if one is a Christian and pro-choice at some point the Holy Spirit will force the person to wise up.

Our beliefs have to ultimately match God's desires. If they don't then we should question if we were ever truly saved.

One simply cannot hold to certain ideologies and claim the name of Christ - there are certain beliefs that are mutually exclusive to being a child of God.

At some point varries for each of us. I am sure that there are some views that you hold that do not match God's desires. I am sure that there are some views that I hold that do not match God's desires. But, does that mean that we are not truely saved?

Personally, I think that the anti-abortion crowd has it's problems as well as the pro-choice one. Do you support the anti-abortionists who blow up abortion clinics?
Both groups are wrong.
Only Christ is right.
Instead of spending time trying to change laws, which is not anything that the Bible tells us to do, we would be better spending our time preaching Christ to everyone.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:48 AM
At some point varries for each of us. I am sure that there are some views that you hold that do not match God's desires. I am sure that there are some views that I hold that do not match God's desires. But, does that mean that we are not truely saved?

Right, but where I'm wrong doesn't affect whether or not a human gets to live. That's my point. Though none of us are perfect in our beliefs, we should at least be able to get the basics down. When we devalue human life we are simply devaluing God at that point.

If the basics of Christianity (which, valuing human life should be up there) aren't believed, then how can one claim to be a Christian? Where is the change?


Personally, I think that the anti-abortion crowd has it's problems as well as the pro-choice one. Do you support the anti-abortionists who blow up abortion clinics?

Of course they're wrong. We have an avenue of effecting change via the law, so it makes no sense to resort to violence.


Instead of spending time trying to change laws, which is not anything that the Bible tells us to do, we would be better spending our time preaching Christ to everyone.
__________________

Yes, and let's all sing campfire songs to each other as well. :rolleyes:

Practically, however, we should be seeking to affect the law in some manner when it's available to us. Though I have advocated elsewhere that dealing with the person on a personal basis is the best approach to ending abortion, this will not cause sweeping change.

Again, under your way of thinking we should be against all laws. You should be just fine with the NAMBLA position - after all, aren't they asking for free choice? And who are we to judge them?

Ashley274
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:49 AM
My post may seem out of the loop but trust me, though I am simple compared to many of you...I have been friends with other girls who have had abortions and now they really REALLY regret it.....I never called them names and never would call anyone names. ..I wonder if that mom who had that downs syndrome baby that was allowed to die out of the womb KNOWS it was her kid and how maybe she feels super bad..I know I would. :cry:
I do follow laws because of fear of being caught ..and God doesn't like sin. I believe IF laws were passed far LESS children would be killed..yes some would be but many would not be.
A ton of people buy children from other countries not here...USA... that is so I think or feel if a system were set up to take and allow people to adopt babies many WOULD be adopted.

I cannot say someone is not a Christian because they are pro choice...In fact I once in my less mature walk didn't care either way on abortion...So maybe we are all in different places in our walk with God and some are smarter in one area God wants them to be smart in and others are smarter in another ...Thus one can be a Christian and be pro-choice...We all screw up or do not understand things and it takes time for some to get to point A in one area but in other places they have been past point A and back...I am not one to judge.

That all being said I do KNOW in my heart abortion is wrong as is killing babies that are accidently born by denying them medical care....and yes rape and stealing and adultery and so many things... are wrong and sin too...but we have laws against them we don't on this issue and I FEEL we need a law to overturn the current ones...Thats my view anyhow :hug:

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:56 AM
Be prepared to have this excellent post completely ignored. Apparently the pro-choice crowd doesn't feel like they have to answer any questions or deal with the arguments against their position.

You must be some sort of prophet ;)

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:08 AM
I cannot say someone is not a Christian because they are pro choice...In fact I once in my less mature walk didn't care either way on abortion...So maybe we are all in different places in our walk with God and some are smarter in one area God wants them to be smart in and others are smarter in another ...Thus one can be a Christian and be pro-choice...We all screw up or do not understand things and it takes time for some to get to point A in one area but in other places they have been past point A and back...I am not one to judge.


I guess I failed at communicating that.

For one, I'm Reformed in my viewpoint, so I'm not going to teach there are works we must do in order to maintain our salvation. ;)

Instead, what I'm saying is that all true Christians will eventually be called to be anti-choice depending on how long they're Christians and how much growth is there. If one is being sanctified then it is my belief that one's core ethical commitments will fall into check with God.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:24 AM
Right, but where I'm wrong doesn't affect whether or not a human gets to live. That's my point. Though none of us are perfect in our beliefs, we should at least be able to get the basics down. When we devalue human life we are simply devaluing God at that point.

If the basics of Christianity (which, valuing human life should be up there) aren't believed, then how can one claim to be a Christian? Where is the change?

Practically, however, we should be seeking to affect the law in some manner when it's available to us. Though I have advocated elsewhere that dealing with the person on a personal basis is the best approach to ending abortion, this will not cause sweeping change.

Again, under your way of thinking we should be against all laws. You should be just fine with the NAMBLA position - after all, aren't they asking for free choice? And who are we to judge them?
I am not against laws.
We need laws at this point.
However, I do not think that to be a Christian means that one should have to be involved in the legal system.
We should uphold the laws and if the Lord leads some to try to change laws, then they should follow His leading in that matter.
However, the Lord is not leading all Christians to reform the legal system.



Originally Posted by Toymom: Instead of spending time trying to change laws, which is not anything that the Bible tells us to do, we would be better spending our time preaching Christ to everyone.
__________________ Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos: Yes, and let's all sing campfire songs to each other as well. :rolleyes:


Do not devalue the gospel.
Our prayers and preaching the gospel are very effective. If each one Christian preached the gospel to one more each day and the person they preached the gospel to was saved and that multiplied - there would be sweeping change.

When the Lord returns, He will take care of the matter of abortion. Until then, it will remain.


Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos:Instead, what I'm saying is that all true Christians will eventually be called to be anti-choice depending on how long they're Christians and how much growth is there. If one is being sanctified then it is my belief that one's core ethical commitments will fall into check with God.

Eventually is different from

Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos: One simply cannot both be a Christian AND be pro-choice. One cannot proclaim the name of Christ and turn around and defend a woman's right to kill her own child.
So, perhaps one can be a Christian and be pro-choice?
You just are stating that at some point they will change their minds and no longer be pro-choice? Is that it?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:34 AM
However, I do not think that to be a Christian means that one should have to be involved in the legal system.
We should uphold the laws and if the Lord leads some to try to change laws, then they should follow His leading in that matter.
However, the Lord is not leading all Christians to reform the legal system.

The OP isn't calling for everyone to get involved in changing the abortion laws. Rather, I'm calling for Christians to abandon a pro-choice position. This is something Christians can do and something they can think about when they go into the voting booth. Not that voting will really change anything in the long run (we need moral judges and legislatures to do that), but it doesn't excuse us from our responsibility.

I'm not asking everyone to sign a petition or write to their congressperson. I'm simply saying that Christians cannot support a pro-choice stance.


Do not devalue the gospel.
Our prayers and preaching the gospel are very effective. If each one Christian preached the gospel to one more each day and the person they preached the gospel to was saved and that multiplied - there would be sweeping change.

Agreed and I've advocated this elsewhere on the board. At the same time we should be realistic and realize that not everyone will come to Christ. We live in a fallen world where people won't always come to Christ. In light of this, God has established governments with the intent to inflict consequences onto immoral actions. Since abortion is immoral we (who are called) should push for its banishment (with certain exceptions). Other Christians, however, shouldn't exacerbate the problem by being pro-Choice.


So, perhaps one can be a Christian and be pro-choice?
You just are stating that at some point they will change their minds and no longer be pro-choice? Is that it?

Correct. If one is growing in Christ then God will eventually change that one's mind. This is on basic ethics - some things we simply will never get right. Other things, however, are quite essential to our growth as christians.

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:16 AM
Right, like calling people pseudo-intellectuals and the like. :rolleyes:

Regardless, I don't buy the argument that, "Well God knew it would happen so why try?" Though God has a sovereign Will that the world is ultimately subject to this doesn't alleviate us from our responsibilities.

Was William Wilberforce wrong for making it his mission to eradicate slavery in England? Through his efforts change occurred. This didn't fix all the racial woes, but it did free black people from slavery in the English Empire. Of course not - Wilberforce was completely right in what he did.

Likewise, what is wrong with Christians trying to effect change in the law?

Again, why can't we apply your way of thinking (just rely on God) to ALL laws? Why not revoke these laws since they don't allow for God to change people's hearts?

As a side note: Where have I advocated we judge the women who have abortions? I'm advocating why a Christian can't be pro-choice.
Ok - here we go...
You should know why I called you a pseudo-intellectual. I actually told you why, if you bothered to read it.

Or how about this:

You can cut the self-righteous banter. ;)
or this:

Just to prove my point that no one is addressing the content of the post, but simply espousing pre-recited thoughts:
Get over it - we are "talking" - we are not in class. And from what I read of the thred starter, is it or is it not a "Pre-recited" thought of Francis Shaeffer and others? So are you the pot calling the kettle black?

Or:

Exactly! You can proclaim the name of Jesus, but hate black people, be for race driven slavery, promote genocide against lesser races, push to legalize rape because women are inferior, and not worry about any of this affecting your faith or being inconsistent with your view of God as creator of humanity! :pp
The poster you responded to made a valid point. You dismissed it and instead, belittled her.

I could go on but I won't.

What is our main responsibility as Christians? Seriously? I thought it was to share the good news of the gospel not focus on abortion in the United States.

Also - Where have I said it is wrong to change the law? Please read what I have written instead of deflecting and projecting. And you accuse me of creating a strawman? Dude, we need to talk.

You advocated on another thread to use whatever means were necessary to turn a woman away, including photos that people going past would have to explain to their young children when they drive by. How is that in any way working to change a law? It isn't - it's telling the woman entering the clinic that you are judging her and you view her as a sinner - a murderer.

AK, I realize this is something you feel strongly about. I have no argument whatsoever with that. But please understand others experieces are not yours and yours are not theirs. To me, caring for the born and abused is just as critical as caring for the unborn.

Peace to you.
V

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:21 AM
Then what was your complaint against the OP?
I used OP incorrectly - I intended it to mean "other poster" - the one (Xelnaga, I think) you were responding to.

Sorry for the confusion.

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:23 AM
That was a response towards my post?

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:31 AM
That was a response towards my post?Post #42 was a response to both your and AK's posts, yes.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:31 AM
I'm I'm simply saying that Christians cannot support a pro-choice stance.
Actually, you are stating that you think that Christians Should Not suport a pro-choice stance.
What they can or cannot do is not up to you.


we should be realistic and realize that not everyone will come to Christ. We live in a fallen world where people won't always come to Christ. In light of this, God has established governments with the intent to inflict consequences onto immoral actions. Since abortion is immoral we (who are called) should push for its banishment (with certain exceptions). Other Christians, however, shouldn't exacerbate the problem by being pro-Choice.



So, what you are talking about here is not their personal feelings, but rather how they vote on issues. Is that correct?

IMINXTC
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:05 AM
Barging in then out again. This is a very encouraging thread! During the Roe v Wade years one could almost assume an unflinchable, united voice against abortion from God's people.. and, if truth be known (you remember), it was the Catholics and Mormons who carried a lion's share of the burden. But there was no breach in the ranks (or at least, very little).

Things have changed. And to hear Evangelicals on the news, when asked or polled, if abortion (this includes the 'failed -abortion' issues), and same-sex marriage etc were prime factors in this electon, the vast majority respond that it is the economy.

"Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under the foot of men." Mt 5:13

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:14 AM
Get over it - we are "talking" - we are not in class.

It's simple rhetoric - if you're going to get anywhere then you need to respond to what is being said.


And from what I read of the thred starter, is it or is it not a "Pre-recited" thought of Francis Shaeffer and others? So are you the pot calling the kettle black?

Not at all. In fact, the arguments generally go deeper than Schaeffer's own analysis on the subject. Whereas he simply assumed Christians shouldn't support abortion, the OP goes into detail on why Christians can't buy into pro-choice.

Likewise, though it is certainly influenced by Schaeffer (and some conversations I've had with Frank Beckwith) most of it was written from me sitting down and contemplating the ramifications of the beliefs.

What I am accusing people of is coming out with slogan-style arguments that simply bite into the OP. The OP says one thing and people come out and use the same argument that was previously attacked without responding to the attack against the argument. That is what you and others have continued to do.


The poster you responded to made a valid point. You dismissed it and instead, belittled her.

It wasn't valid at all. My response to it showed it for what it was worth.


What is our main responsibility as Christians? Seriously? I thought it was to share the good news of the gospel not focus on abortion in the United States.


Well you're wrong.

Our main responsibility as Christians is to love God and demonstrate His glory. It is to seek His glory and to seek that His glory is shown in all things. Evangelism is a ramification of this quest, but is not the primary goal of Christians. Likewise, standing up for the rights of the unborn - though important - is not the primary goal either. It too is a ramification of our central goal, which is God's glory.


You advocated on another thread to use whatever means were necessary to turn a woman away, including photos that people going past would have to explain to their young children when they drive by. How is that in any way working to change a law? It isn't - it's telling the woman entering the clinic that you are judging her and you view her as a sinner - a murderer.

I'm not kidding when I write this: I will pay you $5,000 if you can quote me on that. If you can quote where I said we are to use any means necessary or where we are to use posters to show young children, I will pay up.

What I have advocated is that Christians stop protesting abortion clinics (unless they are out there offering free counseling or helping to set women up with adoption agencies). I have said we should never show the pictures of aborted babies unles the mother to be asks to see what an abortion does to a baby. I have spoken out against people who use such tactics.

This, of course, is the main crux of your problem in this thread: You're assuming way too much. You've pigeon-holed me into this stereotype without taking the time to find out what I believe. You come into this guns blazing when it's blatantly obvious you're in over your head. Not intellectually, but over your head in terms of knowing who you're talking to and what exactly he believes on the issue. I am passionate about showing Christians why they cannot be pro-choice and why abortion should be outlawed - but I am even more passionate about helping these women so they don't end up in the situation where they have to consider an abortion.

The fact is, you don't know what I have and have not done in terms of ministering to women who are in an at risk situation. I've mentioned it maybe one time on this board and that's enough. The arguments I provide should provide enough reason enough to reject a pro-choice stance.


AK, I realize this is something you feel strongly about. I have no argument whatsoever with that. But please understand others experieces are not yours and yours are not theirs. To me, caring for the born and abused is just as critical as caring for the unborn.


This is what I mean by using "canned arguments." The OP deals exactly with this viewpoint. I'm arguing against the "either/or" mentality and instead arguing for a "both/and" mentality. We fight on multiple fronts in any almost any endeavor as Christians. With abortion, we should fight this war mainly on the personal front, but we should not ignore the political front. That is what I have been arguing.

The OP points out that it's counter-intuitive (not to mention anti-Biblical) to side with a pro-choice view. Why are so many people arguing against this?

Finally, experience has nothing to do with this. I'm using rational argumentation free from experience.



ToyMom,


Actually, you are stating that you think that Christians Should Not suport a pro-choice stance.
What they can or cannot do is not up to you.

No, it's a simple fact: Christians cannot support a pro-choice view and still be consistent in their Christianity. It's an impossibility.


So, what you are talking about here is not their personal feelings, but rather how they vote on issues. Is that correct?

I'm talking about both. A Christian that feels a pro-choice view is acceptable is just as bad as one that votes that way.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:16 AM
Barging in then out again. This is a very encouraging thread! During the Roe v Wade years one could almost assume an unflinchable, united voice against abortion from God's people.. and, if truth be known (you remember), it was the Catholics and Mormons who carried a lion's share of the burden. But there was no breach in the ranks (or at least, very little).

Things have changed. And to hear Evangelicals on the news, when asked or polled, if abortion (this includes the 'failed -abortion' issues), and same-sex marriage etc were prime factors in this electon, the vast majority respond that it is the economy.

"Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under the foot of men." Mt 5:13

What's more encouraging and disturbing is more young people are favoring a pro-life stance. When I say young people, however, I am referring to secular young people. Among college aged evangelicals, more and more are favoring a pro-choice stance.

How the world has turned upside down.

AngelAuthor
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:47 AM
Or should they be born and live a life in an orphanage.....
You dont get it do you lady?

No...you don't get it. Being born to LIVE in an orphanage (with a chance of adoption) is better than being ripped apart in the womb. I can't believe you're taking the Annie argument: Better to die unborn than to have to live as a ward of the state for awhile.

:confused

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:49 AM
No...you don't get it. Being born to LIVE in an orphanage (with a chance of adoption) is better than being ripped apart in the womb. I can't believe you're taking the Annie argument: Better to die unborn than to have to live as a ward of the state for awhile.

:confused

:pp

This is an excellent argument and observation. Under the type of thinking you're responding to we would be justified to kill orphans period simply because of their burdensome existence.

Very good observation.

ilovemetal
Aug 23rd 2008, 06:06 AM
would you hate me if i brought euthinasia into this?????

i heard in europe if oldies get 2 doctors sigs they can take a pill that will kill themselves....

(ignore this if too of topic)

but this along the same lines. in a world with no God life has no value....right? so -5 months old or +96 years old, it's no biggie. that's not our view, but we can't force our view upon the world. we cannot expect the world to view life how we do.

i don't realy know what i'm getting at, but figured the circular arguments a little draining...(though i still like this thread):D

AngelAuthor
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:21 AM
Well, apparently according to the argument that some have been making here, since there aren't sufficient programs in place to give the best quality of life for the elderly, then there's no point in stopping them from offing themselves.

Better off aborted than an orphan.
Better off euthanized than decrepit.

LadyinWaiting
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:04 PM
we cannot expect the world to view life how we do.

However, laws of the land do this daily. We value the lives of others - you cannot drive drunk, you can't be reckless, women who drink before a baby is due (if prosecuted) can be forced to abstain until the baby is at term, if you are an AIDS sufferer and don't disclose that to a partner you can be tried for reckless endangerment, and the list goes on and on.

They legislate morality every day through our laws in line with our moral stance that life is precious and worthy of protection.

Why is it at this point where we suddenly can't expect a lost world to follow a certain idea of life being precious? If we do it for the rest of the time, why not pass laws that make the rest of the world at least accept it as law even if they don't accept it under their own morals?

th1bill
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:33 PM
Well, apparently according to the argument that some have been making here, since there aren't sufficient programs in place to give the best quality of life for the elderly, then there's no point in stopping them from offing themselves.

Better off aborted than an orphan.
Better off euthanized than decrepit.
... Okay, This has gone completely beyond what the OP stated but it does demonstrate the valid arguments made in the past that abortion would lead to turning off the elderly and the excessively damaged. My being 63 and almost 64, by your logic, I need to be offed with the forty and rapidly climbing to fifty Million American carcases that have been harvested and sold. I'll do my best to make the intent of the OP real to you and if I'm off center he is encouraged by me to jump in and correct me.
... John McCain put it very clearly at Saddleback, life begins at conception. I'll go further, life ends, properly, when God sends your Death Angel to escort you home. You will, in the popular opinion, be right to ask, "How dare you? First let's look at what God has told us. In the very beginning of God's own word it is found that God made Adam and Eve in His image, so there is a thing inside us, perhaps even a quality, that resembles God. For that reason, and what I have learned from almost eighteen years of Bible study, to murder a man (genaric) is to lash out at God. (You will need to pour over the first five books in a serious study, but it is clearly there.) God has repeatedly condemned the Murder of any man and an embryo at ten weeks has ten human fingers, ten human toes, a heart beat and thought patterns that are measurable.
... I'll go further than that. Medically remove an egg from a female human and extract a sperm from a male human and medically couple them and placed into the proper enviroment and a human is being grown. From the moment of conception, except someone take some action to murder that coupled embryo, a breathing, living human that is made in God's image is the result. Likewise, how dare anyone call the name of Christ and be for the "murder" of infants, the elderly or the disabled!
... Let's examine the disabled for a moment because just as A. Hitler did, our society is now moving with all of this extermination theoligy, created by man in spite of God. I am old and I am terminally ill. I hurt every single day, before I even get out of bed. In spite of that I get up, make my own coffee and often my breakfast so that I can go tend my vegtable plants (in pots these days,) take my Dashund outside so she can run the yard and play with me and I turn my computer on so that I can communicate with folks from around the world and teach the Gospel of Christ to them. My life has a great deal of worth, in spite of the pain. Instead of allowing people to murder themselves we need to teach them to find the value of their lives.
... Here's the point, Jesus told us to obey His commands if we love Him. In the first few verses of John 1 we discover that Jesus is the Creator of the universe and everything in it. He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone and it is His handy work when that embryo, unborn infant, is placed in the womb. The beginning of life and the ending of life is rightly in the had of God.

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:59 PM
Hi, AK -

I'm not kidding when I write this: I will pay you $5,000 if you can quote me on that. If you can quote where I said we are to use any means necessary or where we are to use posters to show young children, I will pay up.

What I have advocated is that Christians stop protesting abortion clinics (unless they are out there offering free counseling or helping to set women up with adoption agencies). I have said we should never show the pictures of aborted babies unles the mother to be asks to see what an abortion does to a baby. I have spoken out against people who use such tactics.

I owe you an apology and I offer it sincerely. I did have you confused with someone else. I went back and read the thread I was thinking of and I even agreed with you in that thread.



This, of course, is the main crux of your problem in this thread: You're assuming way too much. You've pigeon-holed me into this stereotype without taking the time to find out what I believe. You come into this guns blazing when it's blatantly obvious you're in over your head. Not intellectually, but over your head in terms of knowing who you're talking to and what exactly he believes on the issue. I am passionate about showing Christians why they cannot be pro-choice and why abortion should be outlawed - but I am even more passionate about helping these women so they don't end up in the situation where they have to consider an abortion.

Yep, again, you are correct. And again, I am sorry and somewhat chagrined. I am usually far more capable of "remembering" what people have said.

After having read your posts in this and another thread on this subject, I am much closer to your position than you might think.

I may take time this afternoon to speak to the original points made with the opening post. I still disagree with you on the basic premise that one cannot be a Christian and be pre-choice. I think there are various "reasons" for that and will try to present them in a logical way so they can be discussed easily.

Thank you for calling attention to the fact I had confused you with other poster(s). Again, I extend my apologies for mischaracterizing you and your position.
V

xSTEADFASTx
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:20 PM
im pro-life; but its an individual choice; and an individuals sin.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos
No, it's a simple fact: Christians cannot support a pro-choice view and still be consistent in their Christianity. It's an impossibility.


I'm talking about both. A Christian that feels a pro-choice view is acceptable is just as bad as one that votes that way.

ak, you are judging others here.
You have no way of knowing people's hearts.
You are not God and you cannot judge who is and who is not a Christian by their political or legal views.

It might be more correct to say that a pro-choice view does not agree with what the Bible says.

Then you are judging the viewpoint itself, which is fine, and you are correct - the Bible does not support the view that abortion is acceptable.

However, to say that a person who feels that they do not have the right to tell another person what they should or should not do with their bodies, which is what "pro-choice" Christians often feel, that they are not good Christians is overstepping your bounds.

You do not know other people's hearts. You are not God. You cannot judge who is a Christian and who is not. And you cannot judge who is a "good Christian" and who is a "bad Christian" if there is such thing, by their political and legal views.

The abortion issue and the stance that one takes on it is not the determining factor in who is and who is not a Christian or on who is and who is not a "good Christian".

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:47 PM
ak, you are judging others here.
You have no way of knowing people's hearts.
You are not God and you cannot judge who is and who is not a Christian by their political or legal views.

It might be more correct to say that a pro-choice view does not agree with what the Bible says.

Then you are judging the viewpoint itself, which is fine, and you are correct - the Bible does not support the view that abortion is acceptable.

However, to say that a person who feels that they do not have the right to tell another person what they should or should not do with their bodies, which is what "pro-choice" Christians often feel, that they are not good Christians is overstepping your bounds.

You do not know other people's hearts. You are not God. You cannot judge who is a Christian and who is not. And you cannot judge who is a "good Christian" and who is a "bad Christian" if there is such thing, by their political and legal views.

The abortion issue and the stance that one takes on it is not the determining factor in who is and who is not a Christian or on who is and who is not a "good Christian".

Vhayes, this is the sort of post my older post was directed towards.
Toymom... 1 Corinthians 5, Apo isn't doing anything he shouldn't.

Toymom
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:13 PM
Vhayes, this is the sort of post my older post was directed towards.
Toymom... 1 Corinthians 5, Apo isn't doing anything he shouldn't.

1 Cor. 5 is about judging others because of their actions, not because of their viewpoints.

1 Cor 5 tells us to remove from our midst those who live in sin, especially fornication, and continue to commit it and refuse to repent. Even then, that sinful person is still a Christian, but is removed from the church so that he does not damage the church. When or if he repents and discontinues his fornication then he would be allowed to return to the church.

Even in that case Paul does not say that the fornicator is not a Christian. He says that the fornicating Christian should not be allowed to meet with the church and that the members of the church should not mingle willingly with fornicators, covetous ones, idolators, drunkards or thieves who are in the church, but should ask those Christians to change their actions or else they must stop meeting with the church.

Big T
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:20 PM
Many have said "Do you feel the same way about other laws...?" regarding people saying that we are free to chose the abortion or not.

I do. You are "free to choose" to murder someone, to run a redlight, to rob a bank and so on. You are even free to CHOOSE to come to my house and try to rob me and harm me

Oh ya but you will face CONSEQUENCES. And some of those consequences could even be death.

The law as of today is that women have the right to have an abortion, as painful as it is to think about. And we need to try to get that law changed.

Maybe we are going about getting the law changed, the wrong way. Abortion should be illegal simply because it is not an equal law. It is sexist and discriminatory. I propose that we fight the abortion law on these grounds. I, as a man, can not have one and that is NOT FAIR! How can they pass such a sexist law. How can they call it a right, when I can't have one?

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:28 PM
AK wrote:

2) “There are other issues that should be dealt with.”

It is true that there are other issues that need to be dealt with, but we must ask ourselves if these other issues are on par with or above our ethical responsibility to human life. I believe there are two approaches to this view:

I) The hierarchialist view – Under this view one accepts that there is a hierarchy of ethical conduct. Thus, there are some ethical codes that are simply higher than others. If the Nazis knock on my door and ask if I’m hiding Jews and I am, in fact, hiding Jews then most hierarchicalists would argue that protecting human life is a higher good than lying. Thus, one is allowed to suspend the ethical judgment against lying because a higher ethical calling is on the line. Another example is that of speeding. Most would agree that it is ‘ethical’ to go the speed limit (ethical in that it is obeying the law), but most would also argue that if there was a life-threatening emergency that required one speed to the hospital it would be okay to suspend the ethic of following the law in order to follow the ethic of saving a life.

Biblically this holds some justification. Though there is nothing explicit within Scripture that says there is a hierarchy, it is implicit in some of the ethical situations presented. Without going into too much detail we can see that the Law itself holds different punishments for different offenses, with offenses and crimes against the image of God (humans) holding severe penalties. Likewise, we know it is wrong to deceive people or to tell half truths, yet we see God ordering Samuel to deceive and tell a half truth when directed by God to go anoint David as king. Jesus tells us not to deny Him while Paul tells us to follow the government and ruling authorities; the Jewish authorities told Paul to cease preaching Jesus, but he disobeyed them. Obviously, in this instance, the higher ethical value was following God rather than following an authority. The list goes on, but this should help to show that there are some ethics that are higher than others.

With the above in mind once could argue that crimes against humanity are more severe than any other ethical violation (such as pollution or animal cruelty). Things such as homosexuality, adultery, alcoholism, drug abuse, or even child abuse – though evil in their own right – do not measure up to murder. Whereas there is still life after the previous offenses, murder is a final act.

In light of this, though there are other acts that are important and should be dealt with, ethically speaking abortion is the greatest unethical act allowed by law, thus it should be the number one issue when going to the voting booth. This is not to say the other issues aren’t important, but simply that they are not as important as that of abortion.

II) The Deontological view – this view would hold that all values are equal. Lying and consequences. To use an above example, even if you need to speed in order to save a life you shouldn’t speed because you would be violating an ethical principle.

Even this view, however, would negate the above argument. Though other issues would be viewed as equal they would not be mutually exclusive to desiring to ban abortion. One could conceivably be passionate about both environmental reform and banning abortion on demand.


Let’s use another example to demonstrate a couple of things that I find troubling:

You find abortion to be murder. Fine, I’ll not argue.

If we use the hierarchal view of sin, then the following is completely feasible and defendable.

An abortion clinic is a location dedicated to mass murder and the doctor is a murderer. We are talking murder on a wholesale scale. Therefore, it is to the greater good that the clinic be destroyed and the doctor eliminated for the greater ethical good of all.

While you may be able to say “I would never do that and that is not what I am advocating," do you not see that having a hierarchal view of sin does indeed lead to such thinking?

And where does it end? What is “too much”? I’m going to use a thread on this board as an example – people were discussing the Olympics and how some of the uniforms were too revealing. If we adhere to the hierachal view of sin, someone may decide the young athlete in tights is leading many people into the sin of lust and we all know that leads to rape so therefore that girl needs to just stop dressing that way and it will be for the greater good if we cripple her so she can no longer display her body in that manner…

A non-absolute view of sin, or a sin “level” is a flawed logic that can and will be twisted to suit a zealots desires.

Each person is responsible for their own actions and decisions. Each person answers for their own sin(s). We are responsible for giving a reason for what we believe but the Holy Spirit is the One Who convicts and convinces.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:30 PM
I suppose the issue of abortion has become complicated after 35 years of it being legal and the air of acceptance it has attained, it saddens me deeply that it has spilled over even onto those who calim the Name above all Names.

It's as cut and dry an issue as there ever was, either the life in the womb was created in the image of God FOR HIS PURPOSES or it wasn't.
And all this peripheral disussion is pointless. There are dead babies involved and why it should have to go beyond that for one second boggles my mind.
It is unnatural, immoral and against God Himself for a mother to kill her own child, and for some reason just because of location it's up for discussion. :cry:

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:34 PM
For those bringing up euthanasia you're not too far off the topic here. One can plausibly argue that because the quality of life is diminished in the disabled or elderly we are allowed to take their life in order to preserve their dignity. This is essentially the argument being given for allowing abortion.

VHayes, not a problem. It can happen on message boards.

ak, you are judging others here.
You have no way of knowing people's hearts.
You are not God and you cannot judge who is and who is not a Christian by their political or legal views.

Yes I can. Where does the bible say I can't judge someone's beliefs? In fact, isn't that exactly what Paul tells us to do when dealing with false teachers? Obviously the teacher hasn't acted on anything, he's merely taught a belief. Yet he is to be dealt with severely. So how do you match this up with Paul?

Secondly, if someone holds to a view that is blatantly anti-Biblical then we have every right to call that person on the carpet and judge them for it. This is Biblical.


It might be more correct to say that a pro-choice view does not agree with what the Bible says.

Then you are judging the viewpoint itself, which is fine, and you are correct - the Bible does not support the view that abortion is acceptable.

This creates an unnecessary dichotomy between the anti-biblical belief and the person that ascribes to the anti-biblical belief. If one ascribes to it then, no matter how you cut it, the person is anti-Biblical.



However, to say that a person who feels that they do not have the right to tell another person what they should or should not do with their bodies, which is what "pro-choice" Christians often feel, that they are not good Christians is overstepping your bounds.

Not at all. It's simply common sense. A child IS NOT part of the mother's body (which has been explained in the OP and *shockingly* has gone ignored yet again). We have every right to tell a mother not to murder her own child.


You do not know other people's hearts. You are not God. You cannot judge who is a Christian and who is not. And you cannot judge who is a "good Christian" and who is a "bad Christian" if there is such thing, by their political and legal views.

Fine, let's use your way of thinking.

This means one can hate black people, lynch a few, be pro-rape, pro-genocide, have a love affair with Hitler's teachings....and still be a Christian. This makes no sense at all.

One who is a Christian shows sanctification in actions and in thought. Paul calls us to renew our minds. If our way of thinking is severely out of course with the Bible, we are either new in our walk, still growing, backslidden, or simply not a Christian. Either way, it doesn't bode well for the Christian holding to such an abhorrent belief.

BTW, who are you to tell me what to do with my own thoughts? :rolleyes:


See how your logic can be thrown right back in this discussion? See how it just doesn't work?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:41 PM
You find abortion to be murder. Fine, I’ll not argue.

If we use the hierarchal view of sin, then the following is completely feasible and defendable.

An abortion clinic is a location dedicated to mass murder and the doctor is a murderer. We are talking murder on a wholesale scale. Therefore, it is to the greater good that the clinic be destroyed and the doctor eliminated for the greater ethical good of all.

While you may be able to say “I would never do that and that is not what I am advocating," do you not see that having a hierarchal view of sin does indeed lead to such thinking?

This is a gross oversimplification of a hierarchalist view. In such a situation we have another guiding ethic - the law - that can safely eradicate abortion clinics without taking a life. Taking a life, under this view, is one of the highest evils someone can do and is rarely excused, so it is best to find all other avenues of change before taking a life.

Now, if we lived in a country where women were forced to get abortions, I would argue that there would be nothing wrong in blowing up the clinic. As it is, no one is forced to do so and we can effect change through the law, so that is the most ethical route.


And where does it end? What is “too much”? I’m going to use a thread on this board as an example – people were discussing the Olympics and how some of the uniforms were too revealing. If we adhere to the hierachal view of sin, someone may decide the young athlete in tights is leading many people into the sin of lust and we all know that leads to rape so therefore that girl needs to just stop dressing that way and it will be for the greater good if we cripple her so she can no longer display her body in that manner…

Huh? You're mixing relativism with hierarchy. A hierarchy teaches that there are absolutes that are higher than others. With this in mind your logic doesn't work. Just because something innocent can lead to something sinful doesn't mean we ban that which is innocent. That has nothing to do with a heirarchial view.

Furthermore, your own example applies to a deontological view. Someone could argue that lust itself is just as bad as rape, therefore we should cripple the woman so she can no longer display her body. After all, she caused the lust so she has to suffer the consequence for the sin.

Your own belief doesn't escape the example you provided because the example doesn't address the ethical system - it merely addresses the use (or in this case, abuse) of an ethical system.


A non-absolute view of sin, or a sin “level” is a flawed logic that can and will be twisted to suit a zealots desires.

So can deontology, or even the view that the Bible teaches all sins are the same. No method of thinking is free from being twisted.

In fact, it's a logical fallacy to argue that because something can be twisted it cannot be true. Looking to how it can be twisted hardly justifies not believing in the ethical system, especially if the ethical system doesn't logically lead to what is being twisted.

I provided Biblical examples of what a hierarchal system is. Let me ask you - and please be honest - before reading it in this thread (and the other one), how much have you read about such a system?

Vhayes
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:57 PM
I provided Biblical examples of what a hierarchal system is. Let me ask you - and please be honest - before reading it in this thread (and the other one), how much have you read about such a system?

Why would I not be honest? Good golly.

I have been in discussions with a dear friend for almost a year about this very thing. I have read articles and I have actually tried to place myself in a situation such as lying to the Gestapo about giving shelter to Jews.

Do I use the "proper" nomenclature? Usually not for a couple of reasons. Do I understand the theology behind the words? Usually but not always and almost certainly not completely.

You have said I oversimplified in some of what I said or used. Fine - believe as you will, but to me, everything is fairly simple once we peel away the layers of doctrine, theology, rationalization and ego. It all has to do with each persons personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the discussion.
V

JesusPhreak27
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:55 PM
Hooray for non-sequiturs! :pp


I'm saying one cannot be a Christian and support a pro-choice agenda - if one is a Christian and pro-choice at some point the Holy Spirit will force the person to wise up. A person that does not 'wise up,' however, I question if that person is truly a Christian. How can someone support a woman's right to kill her own child, yet claim to love the God who created that child? Applying it to similar situations - how can a Christian be pro-war (that is, in all circumstances no matter the justification), but turn around and claim to love God?

Our beliefs have to ultimately match God's desires. If they don't then we should question if we were ever truly saved.

A woman who has an abortion and is a Christian doesn't have her salvation negated (I don't believe it is possible for Christians to lose their salvation). If she is truly saved she will be convicted for what she did and her relationship with God will suffer greatly. In His sovereignty He will restore that relationship with her and use her evil act for His good, but this doesn't excuse her act.

Surprisingly enough I don't guilt the mothers as much as I guilt the pro-choice crowd that enables the mother to get an abortion. One simply cannot hold to certain ideologies and claim the name of Christ - there are certain beliefs that are mutually exclusive to being a child of God.

Does my support of women's choice truly affect whether or not I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins?

No......

So I ask you..... why do you get to be judgemental and say that I CANT be a Christian if I am pro choice?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:21 PM
AK.... I would like your thoughts on this:

In one of the Books of Samuel it is stated that man sees just the outside of a person and that God alone can see into the heart right?

So that being said.... unless you are now proclaiming that you are God how can you look at someone who supports women's choice and tell them that they are not a Christian? Can you see my heart?

Man can not see what another man feels inside or what they believe.....

Its much like Sen. Obama...... the man claims that he is a Christian....can you see into his heart and see something that none of us can?

Im trying to get you to see that just because your views on a situation and mine do not match does not give you the right to claim that I am not a "true" Christian.

Only God knows what I truly believe and/or do not believe....... much the same only God has the right to judge what a person does as right or wrong.

Another poster used "Love others as you love yourself" as a defense of pro-life.....while I can see where that could be made.....the question I have is this: Doesnt that bit of Scripture mean that we are to love a person and lift them up after they do something that we do not agree with?

Remember Christ said himself that "the healthy do not need a doctor".....nor do people who have done this need us (least of all -- as VHayes has made it very clear) telling them that what they have done is wrong. These women need our love and support.....thats our job...the judging is to be left to God.

And along those lines if a woman does have an abortion but then repents and asks for forgiveness doesnt that make her just the same as any of us? A sinner saved by grace?

ilovemetal
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:10 PM
Does my support of women's choice truly affect whether or not I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins?

No......

So I ask you..... why do you get to be judgemental and say that I CANT be a Christian if I am pro choice?

i think if you read the past 6 pages you'll get the answer....:D

yeah it's alot...

ilovemetal
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:20 PM
here's where i stand.

The most famous Bible passage about the 'fruit of the Spirit' is in Galatians 5:22, where the apostle Paul gives us a list of fruit. (Paul was into making lists.) The list is meant as a contrast to the list of the 'deeds of the flesh' found in 5:19-20. The fruit list is clearly not intended as an exhaustive description of the fruit, but was given to highlight the fruit that Paul wants the Galatian church to keep in mind. He lists the following fruit:

love (agape);
joy (chara);
peace (eirene);
patience (makrothumia);
kindness (chrestotes);
goodness (agathosune);
faithfulness (pistis);
gentleness (prautes);
self-control (enkrateia).


When Paul follows the list of the fruit of the Spirit by saying "against such things there is no law", he was talking about the fact that the religious authorities and the Hebrew Torah (law) are positive toward behavior that shows these characteristics. Even a staunch enemy of the church will likely find these qualities appealing. These are known to be positive characteristics by almost everyone, in most eras, in most lands.

Paul's Galatians list is made of stuff that is both something you are and something you do. It is the Spirit giving you the character of Christ. There are other such lists in the Epistles, and they are also relevant to any talk about the 'fruit of the Spirit'.

http://www.spirithome.com/fruitssp.html#paul

so the point is, if we have the holy spirit dwelling in us, how can we go agaist the fruit it produces. when was killing a child love, or being kind. it's not. thus how can one say they have the spirit but produce none of the fruits.



that's the main point i think, not weather abortion is wrong, but how a christian should agree with it based on the fruits....yup.

flybaby
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:25 PM
I guess it all comes down to this: when do each of you believe that life begins? At conception? At the hearing of the heartbeat? When the first fetal movement is felt by the mother? At month seven? At viability? At the first breath?

The answer to that question will give each person their position - prolife or prochoice.

Yes, a Christian could possibly believe that life starts at the first breath. Christians are allowed to be wrong.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:51 PM
here's where i stand.

The most famous Bible passage about the 'fruit of the Spirit' is in Galatians 5:22, where the apostle Paul gives us a list of fruit. (Paul was into making lists.) The list is meant as a contrast to the list of the 'deeds of the flesh' found in 5:19-20. The fruit list is clearly not intended as an exhaustive description of the fruit, but was given to highlight the fruit that Paul wants the Galatian church to keep in mind. He lists the following fruit:

love (agape);
joy (chara);
peace (eirene);
patience (makrothumia);
kindness (chrestotes);
goodness (agathosune);
faithfulness (pistis);
gentleness (prautes);
self-control (enkrateia).


When Paul follows the list of the fruit of the Spirit by saying "against such things there is no law", he was talking about the fact that the religious authorities and the Hebrew Torah (law) are positive toward behavior that shows these characteristics. Even a staunch enemy of the church will likely find these qualities appealing. These are known to be positive characteristics by almost everyone, in most eras, in most lands.

Paul's Galatians list is made of stuff that is both something you are and something you do. It is the Spirit giving you the character of Christ. There are other such lists in the Epistles, and they are also relevant to any talk about the 'fruit of the Spirit'.

http://www.spirithome.com/fruitssp.html#paul

so the point is, if we have the holy spirit dwelling in us, how can we go agaist the fruit it produces. when was killing a child love, or being kind. it's not. thus how can one say they have the spirit but produce none of the fruits.



that's the main point i think, not weather abortion is wrong, but how a christian should agree with it based on the fruits....yup.


That is exactly what I am saying.

To put all my cards on the table: I'm a Calvinist. Therefore, I don't believe one can lose his or her salvation over anything. If you're elect you're elect, end of story. A woman who is elect can stumble and can backslide and even get an abortion - this does not negate her salvation.

Being a Calvinist, however, I also believe in sanctification. I'm not saying if a Christian says, "I am pro-choice" that the person is automatically not a Christian. What I am saying is that overtime, if truly saved, the Holy Spirit will work in that person to sanctify that person's thoughts.

We were given the fruits to be able to tell if a person is truly saved or not (or at best, on the right track). If someone continues life with a serious violation of Scripture even after being notified it is a serious violation, we must question whether or not the person is truly saved.

Is a person who thinks it's okay to kill massive amounts of people for their race really saved? Is the person who unremorsefully has sex with multiple people and never changes his or her views really saved? Biblically, we are to treat such people as though they were lost.

Someone who supports a woman's legal right to kill her own child is, in effect, saying that people should have the legal right to murder. This means you should be against all prosecutions of murder. Of course, you're not. You believe we should reach out to such people in prison, correct? But you also believe such people should be in prison. So, if you honestly belief that abortion is the taking of a human life, why do you become so inconsistent?

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 02:19 AM
One more time...

It is against the law for a man to rape his daughter. It is not against the law for a woman to have an abortion.

Apples and oranges - especially to an unbeliever.

It used to be against the law to have an abortion.

Does that mean it was wrong back then when it was illegal, but now that it is legal it is ok?

Laws change.....

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 02:43 AM
Does my support of women's choice truly affect whether or not I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins?


How can you be supportive of a "choice" that kills the life of an innocent human??

Do you realize that God created that life? Do you realize how God feels about the unborn?

If you do, I honestly have NO IDEA how you could SUPPORT the act of killing a preborn child.

Prov. 24:11 says "Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts and He sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and He knows you knew! He will judge all people according to what they have done."

I like how Randy Alcorn puts it in his book "Prolife answers to prochoice arguments"......

"To be prochoice about someones right to kill is to be antichoice about someone else's right to live."

"Whenver we hear the term prochoice, we must ask the all-important question, 'what choice are we really talking about?' Given the facts about abortion, the question really becomes, 'Do you think people should have the right to choose to kill innocent children if that's what they want to do?"

"An appeal to prochoice Christians....
I appeal to you to come to grips with the impossibility of being prochoice about abortion without undermining the essence of what it means to be a Christian. A Christian can no more be prochoice about killing children before they are born than he can be prochoice about kidnapping or killing 2 year olds.
To endorse or even be neutral about killing innocent children created in God's image is unthinkable in the Scriptures, was unthinkable to Christians in church history, and should be unthinkable to Christians today. True Christians do not mindlessly parrot whatever society happens to be saying. They go back to the Scriptures to see what God says, and they believe it even if it is unpopular. They realize that one day they will stand before the Audience of One, and in that day God's position on abortion will be the standard by which all others are judged."

OldChurchGuy
Aug 24th 2008, 04:04 AM
Lately a lot of Christians have been coming out and saying they’re pro-choice, declaring they’re not necessarily for abortion, but they are for the right of the woman to choose. I want to look at some of the arguments for this and argue why a Christian simply cannot be pro-Choice:

1) “We have no right to tell a woman what to do with her own body.”

This argument has been dealt with already in another post I made concerning abortion. I argued:

This way of thinking assumes too much - it assumes that we can do whatever we want to our bodies without having a communal consequence. However, there are times where what I do to my body will inevitably affect those around me (i.e. if I inject myself with an airborne disease, because it will harm those around me I do not have the right to do such a thing). Almost everyone would argue that if we take an action against our body that negatively affects others, that action shouldn’t be taken.

In this case, the child in the womb is ontologically separate from the mother, though reliant. That is to say, the child really isn’t part of the mother’s body. The mother plays host to the body. If a guest comes into your house, eats your food, drinks your water, and sleeps in your bed, does that guest belong to you? Of course not - the guest, though reliant upon you, is not a part of who you are.

The counter to the above argument is that the baby, especially early on, is made up of cells provided by the mother. This is true, but completely irrelevant. No female can spontaneously produce a child without any fertilization from a male. This means that the baby isn’t entirely made up of the mother’s cells, which would seem to indicate that the child in the womb isn’t really part of the mother’s body (in the same way an arm, heart, or lung is part of the mother’s body).

All of this means that the child growing within the mother is really a body inside a body and not just an extension of the mother’s body. It contains foreign matter (via sperm) that is not natural to the mother’s body. If that is true, an abortion is an act that is taken out on the mother’s body that severely affects the child (through death). This would mean that abortion is highly immoral since it is a selfish action that harms an innocent party.

In short, a baby simply isn’t a part or an extension of the mother’s body, but instead a separate being that is reliant upon the mother.

In light of this, though we might not have a right to tell a woman what to do with her own body, we do have a right to tell her what to do with her body when her actions affect a living human being.

2) “There are other issues that should be dealt with.”

It is true that there are other issues that need to be dealt with, but we must ask ourselves if these other issues are on par with or above our ethical responsibility to human life. I believe there are two approaches to this view:

I) The hierarchialist view – Under this view one accepts that there is a hierarchy of ethical conduct. Thus, there are some ethical codes that are simply higher than others. If the Nazis knock on my door and ask if I’m hiding Jews and I am, in fact, hiding Jews then most hierarchicalists would argue that protecting human life is a higher good than lying. Thus, one is allowed to suspend the ethical judgment against lying because a higher ethical calling is on the line. Another example is that of speeding. Most would agree that it is ‘ethical’ to go the speed limit (ethical in that it is obeying the law), but most would also argue that if there was a life-threatening emergency that required one speed to the hospital it would be okay to suspend the ethic of following the law in order to follow the ethic of saving a life.

Biblically this holds some justification. Though there is nothing explicit within Scripture that says there is a hierarchy, it is implicit in some of the ethical situations presented. Without going into too much detail we can see that the Law itself holds different punishments for different offenses, with offenses and crimes against the image of God (humans) holding severe penalties. Likewise, we know it is wrong to deceive people or to tell half truths, yet we see God ordering Samuel to deceive and tell a half truth when directed by God to go anoint David as king. Jesus tells us not to deny Him while Paul tells us to follow the government and ruling authorities; the Jewish authorities told Paul to cease preaching Jesus, but he disobeyed them. Obviously, in this instance, the higher ethical value was following God rather than following an authority. The list goes on, but this should help to show that there are some ethics that are higher than others.

With the above in mind once could argue that crimes against humanity are more severe than any other ethical violation (such as pollution or animal cruelty). Things such as homosexuality, adultery, alcoholism, drug abuse, or even child abuse – though evil in their own right – do not measure up to murder. Whereas there is still life after the previous offenses, murder is a final act.

In light of this, though there are other acts that are important and should be dealt with, ethically speaking abortion is the greatest unethical act allowed by law, thus it should be the number one issue when going to the voting booth. This is not to say the other issues aren’t important, but simply that they are not as important as that of abortion.

II) The Deontological view – this view would hold that all values are equal. Lying and murdering are both ethically wrong and should both be avoided, regardless of the consequences. To use an above example, even if you need to speed in order to save a life you shouldn’t speed because you would be violating an ethical principle.

Even this view, however, would negate the above argument. Though other issues would be viewed as equal they would not be mutually exclusive to desiring to ban abortion. One could conceivably be passionate about both environmental reform and banning abortion on demand.

3) “Why don’t you get out there and talk to the women instead of trying to pass a law against abortion?”

For whatever reason some people are pro-choice because they believe abortions will happen no matter what we do to prevent them. Thus, they argue to forgo the law and address people on a personal level.

Let it be said that I do support a form of this argument. Two of my previous articles deal directly with this view. I do whole-heartedly believe that on any issue we should deal with the person and realize the law will make little difference.

That being said, I believe that abortion is a violation of natural law and should therefore be banned. Not that this will stop abortions, but it will certainly limit them and it simply is the right thing to do.

If we apply this logic across the board it simply doesn’t work. Some men are going to rape women no matter what, so why not try to address these men on a personal level and forget about making rape illegal? What about murder, child abuse, or any other list of crimes? This is not a slippery-slope argument; this is taking the way of thinking for this one issue and applying it to other issues. When we do this it fails.

Instead, as Christians, we should be reaching out to these women while trying to ban the practice of abortion. The two are not mutually exclusive.

4) “It’s not my calling as a Christian to change the law or to make the lost behave like Christians.”

There might be some merit to this argument, but this still wouldn’t support a Christian being pro-choice. In fact, a Christian that wanted to consistently hold to this belief would simply have to cease voting or holding any opinion on politics.

Even if we are not supposed to hold political sway we simply cannot say we are pro-choice. To say you are pro-choice is to say you believe a woman holds the right to kill her own child. Let that sink in for a bit. Should we honestly believe or teach that something is wrong, that abortion is really the act of taking a human life, but then turn around and argue that someone has a right to do this?

Overall, I would argue that it is simply illogical for a Christian to claim Christ and the pro-choice agenda. It is inconsistent – one cannot denounce abortion as wrong (because it takes a human life), but then argue a woman has a right to have an abortion. This is a logically inconsistent view. If one wanted to be consistent then one would have to apply this to rape, murder, theft, and a host of other crimes. All of these crimes violate the rights of other people and create victims, as does abortion. Instead, Christians are called to speak out against all violent acts that unjustly end the life of a human being. We should not teach that a person has the right to have a choice when it comes to unjustly harming another human. In the end, a Christian cannot support the pro-Choice agenda.

I admit not reading all the posts so if this question has already been asked, please accept my apology. Am I correct in thinking the crux of the argument is the belief that life begins at conception?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 04:11 AM
I admit not reading all the posts so if this question has already been asked, please accept my apology. Am I correct in thinking the crux of the argument is the belief that life begins at conception?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Yes. I posted elsewhere on here a while ago that philosophically "life at conception" is the only logically solid argument. Biblically it's almost without question.

Ashley274
Aug 24th 2008, 04:12 AM
BigT I find your post both brillant and funny :rofl: I love your style of writing. You said it well....you said it in fewer words than many and you added some humor....well to me anyhow :hug::pp


Many have said "Do you feel the same way about other laws...?" regarding people saying that we are free to chose the abortion or not.

I do. You are "free to choose" to murder someone, to run a redlight, to rob a bank and so on. You are even free to CHOOSE to come to my house and try to rob me and harm me

Oh ya but you will face CONSEQUENCES. And some of those consequences could even be death.

The law as of today is that women have the right to have an abortion, as painful as it is to think about. And we need to try to get that law changed.

Maybe we are going about getting the law changed, the wrong way. Abortion should be illegal simply because it is not an equal law. It is sexist and discriminatory. I propose that we fight the abortion law on these grounds. I, as a man, can not have one and that is NOT FAIR! How can they pass such a sexist law. How can they call it a right, when I can't have one?

Vhayes
Aug 24th 2008, 04:22 AM
Hi, Old Church Guy -

Actually, no - or at least that isn't what I've been debating/discussing.

I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law. My argument is CHANGE THE LAW - leave the women alone. They need love and guidance, not placards and scowls.

Also - I believe we should offer these women viable alternatives TO abortion. Everyone wants to say abortion is wrong but no one wants to say, "Hey, I'll help care for that child."

Finally, and perhaps most importantly - it's about being told if you are not a staunch anti-abortion person, if you do not find abortion THE issue in all things, you simply cannot be a Christian. Please read the title to this thread.

I've been a Christian for longer than most of the posters in this thread have been alive and I find that type of blanket and sweeping statement (and condemnation) utterly Phariseical and therefore repugnant. I may not have a PhD in theology but I certainly have amassed many degrees in life and the real world. My relationship with my Lord is just fine.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 04:27 AM
There you go again VHayes, creating straw-men and blowing things way out of proportion. Can you please be honest in your assessments from now on and not so deceptive?


I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law. My argument is CHANGE THE LAW - leave the women alone. They need love and guidance, not placards and scowls.

If it's a violation of natural law then it's a sin, regardless of if the government recognizes it or not. Murder is murder. Are you going to say someone who shot a Jew in WWII in Germany wasn't a murderer simply because it was allowed?


Also - I believe we should offer these women viable alternatives TO abortion. Everyone wants to say abortion is wrong but no one wants to say, "Hey, I'll help care for that child."

Quote someone on here who holds that attitude and prove it.


Finally, and perhaps most importantly - it's about being told if you are not a staunch anti-abortion person, if you do not find abortion THE issue in all things, you simply cannot be a Christian. Please read the title to this thread.

This is a flat out lie. I'm saying you can't be pro-choice and be a Christian. The two beliefs are mutually exclusive. At some point, a true Christian will change his or her mind on the pro-choice issue.

Please stop using high school debate tactics.


I've been a Christian for longer than most of the posters in this thread have been alive and I find that type of blanket and sweeping statement (and condemnation) utterly Phariseical and therefore repugnant. I may not have a PhD in theology but I certainly have amassed many degrees in life and the real world. My relationship with my Lord is just fine.

Good for you, but if you're pro-choice (which I know you're not) then it's all inconsistent and you would need to question if you truly have any faith.

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 04:35 AM
I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law.

Really?? :hmm:

The Bible states that we are murderers if we HATE our brothers. 1 John 3:15

Hate is not against the law, yet we are called murderers if we have hate in our heart for other believers.

Just because something is LEGAL, does NOT make it right.

Ashley274
Aug 24th 2008, 05:04 AM
AWESOME post Bill :hug: Sorry you are in pain :pray:



... Okay, This has gone completely beyond what the OP stated but it does demonstrate the valid arguments made in the past that abortion would lead to turning off the elderly and the excessively damaged. My being 63 and almost 64, by your logic, I need to be offed with the forty and rapidly climbing to fifty Million American carcases that have been harvested and sold. I'll do my best to make the intent of the OP real to you and if I'm off center he is encouraged by me to jump in and correct me.
... John McCain put it very clearly at Saddleback, life begins at conception. I'll go further, life ends, properly, when God sends your Death Angel to escort you home. You will, in the popular opinion, be right to ask, "How dare you? First let's look at what God has told us. In the very beginning of God's own word it is found that God made Adam and Eve in His image, so there is a thing inside us, perhaps even a quality, that resembles God. For that reason, and what I have learned from almost eighteen years of Bible study, to murder a man (genaric) is to lash out at God. (You will need to pour over the first five books in a serious study, but it is clearly there.) God has repeatedly condemned the Murder of any man and an embryo at ten weeks has ten human fingers, ten human toes, a heart beat and thought patterns that are measurable.
... I'll go further than that. Medically remove an egg from a female human and extract a sperm from a male human and medically couple them and placed into the proper enviroment and a human is being grown. From the moment of conception, except someone take some action to murder that coupled embryo, a breathing, living human that is made in God's image is the result. Likewise, how dare anyone call the name of Christ and be for the "murder" of infants, the elderly or the disabled!
... Let's examine the disabled for a moment because just as A. Hitler did, our society is now moving with all of this extermination theoligy, created by man in spite of God. I am old and I am terminally ill. I hurt every single day, before I even get out of bed. In spite of that I get up, make my own coffee and often my breakfast so that I can go tend my vegtable plants (in pots these days,) take my Dashund outside so she can run the yard and play with me and I turn my computer on so that I can communicate with folks from around the world and teach the Gospel of Christ to them. My life has a great deal of worth, in spite of the pain. Instead of allowing people to murder themselves we need to teach them to find the value of their lives.
... Here's the point, Jesus told us to obey His commands if we love Him. In the first few verses of John 1 we discover that Jesus is the Creator of the universe and everything in it. He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone and it is His handy work when that embryo, unborn infant, is placed in the womb. The beginning of life and the ending of life is rightly in the had of God.

IMINXTC
Aug 24th 2008, 05:09 AM
Lacking the intellectual prowess to be pseudo or otherwise: and not speaking directly to the issue of one's salvation (with great restraint) may I present it this way:

Q: Can a Bible-believer hold to the pro-choice stance?

A: No.

OldChurchGuy
Aug 24th 2008, 12:15 PM
Yes. I posted elsewhere on here a while ago that philosophically "life at conception" is the only logically solid argument. Biblically it's almost without question.

Thank you for the quick and polite response. At the risk of sounding like a bothersome child, what are the Bible verses that without question affirm life begins at conception?

Every curious,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy
Aug 24th 2008, 12:28 PM
Hi, Old Church Guy -

Actually, no - or at least that isn't what I've been debating/discussing.

I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law. My argument is CHANGE THE LAW - leave the women alone. They need love and guidance, not placards and scowls.

Also - I believe we should offer these women viable alternatives TO abortion. Everyone wants to say abortion is wrong but no one wants to say, "Hey, I'll help care for that child."

Finally, and perhaps most importantly - it's about being told if you are not a staunch anti-abortion person, if you do not find abortion THE issue in all things, you simply cannot be a Christian. Please read the title to this thread.

I've been a Christian for longer than most of the posters in this thread have been alive and I find that type of blanket and sweeping statement (and condemnation) utterly Phariseical and therefore repugnant. I may not have a PhD in theology but I certainly have amassed many degrees in life and the real world. My relationship with my Lord is just fine.

As you can see, this is a very explosive issue.

As one with an adopted child I have thought a great deal about this. At this point in time I am a reluctant supporter of pro-choice because of the point you made about society being reluctant to adopt. Even Ronald Regan couldn't swing popular opinion in that direction as I recall. I believe there are situations where abortion could be the best alternative. But society must be more accepting of unwanted pregnancies and willing to adopt and/or promote birth control.

I also agree that determining a persons faith credentials through a single social issue is, at best, being judgmental.

I have probably gotten myself into enough hot water for now so will quit while I am behind. :)

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 01:15 PM
what are the Bible verses that without question affirm life begins at conception?


Hello, hopefully you don't mind if I jump in to post some Scriptures for you. Others may have some that I don't.

Psalm 51: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Isaiah 46:3 "Listen to me, all you who are left in Israel. I created you and have cared for you since before you were born."

Job 10:10-11 "You guided my conception and formed me in the womb. You clothed me with skin and flesh, and you knit my bones and sinews together. You gave me life and showed me your unfailing love."

Isaiah 49:1 "The Lord called me before my birth; from within the womb he called me by name."

Psalm 139:13-16 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 01:52 PM
As you can see, this is a very explosive issue.

As one with an adopted child I have thought a great deal about this. At this point in time I am a reluctant supporter of pro-choice because of the point you made about society being reluctant to adopt. Even Ronald Regan couldn't swing popular opinion in that direction as I recall. I believe there are situations where abortion could be the best alternative. But society must be more accepting of unwanted pregnancies and willing to adopt and/or promote birth control.

I also agree that determining a persons faith credentials through a single social issue is, at best, being judgmental.

I have probably gotten myself into enough hot water for now so will quit while I am behind. :)

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Thank you for stating this Sir..... This has been the crux of my and (to an extent) VHayes's argument.

I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

I want to see the LAWS changed (and Im not talking about the abortion laws----yet). I want to see the adoption system in the country overhauled to where average American families can afford to adopt an unwanted child.

I want to see systems put in place that assist single (teenage and otherwise) mothers and couples that are not ready/able to care for a child be able to actually do that....take care and raise the child....

But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins......

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?

Vhayes
Aug 24th 2008, 01:59 PM
Thank you for stating this Sir..... This has been the crux of my and (to an extent) VHayes's argument.

I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

I want to see the LAWS changed (and Im not talking about the abortion laws----yet). I want to see the adoption system in the country overhauled to where average American families can afford to adopt an unwanted child.

I want to see systems put in place that assist single (teenage and otherwise) mothers and couples that are not ready/able to care for a child be able to actually do that....take care and raise the child....

But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins......

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?
Amen!

Thank you, Jesus Phreak.
V

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 02:09 PM
Thank you for stating this Sir..... This has been the crux of my and (to an extent) VHayes's argument.

I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

I want to see the LAWS changed (and Im not talking about the abortion laws----yet). I want to see the adoption system in the country overhauled to where average American families can afford to adopt an unwanted child.

I want to see systems put in place that assist single (teenage and otherwise) mothers and couples that are not ready/able to care for a child be able to actually do that....take care and raise the child....

But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins......

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?

And yet, there are those that still support the right for a mother to kill her baby!

We can focus on helping and doing for those that are born. What's more hypocritical, those that are pro-choice (i.e. the ultimate child abuse) and are not in favor of outlawing abortion, or those that are pro-life but do nothing to help others? To me the answer is obvious, it's the former. All pro-lifers that I know are for helping the poor children. However, some are so consumed with outlawing abortion, it leaves little time for other things. That's part of how a body functions.

Yet, we still have people want to come here and say "Stop trying to stop abortion! Deal with those that are already here". What goes unsaid, but is certainly implied, is that those that are "already" here are more human than those that are being killed.

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 02:11 PM
I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

To be "pro-choice" about abortion is to be pro-abortion.


I want to see the LAWS changedSo do pro-lifers!


But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins...... Are you saying that the majority of believers are judgmental hypocrites? That is really exaggerated and frankly comes off as bitter.
I know of many staunch pro-life believers who are caring, sweet, loving, giving, and un-selfish who not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. They are out there helping women, counseling women & meeting their needs.


Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?Christian and pro-choice about abortion? Yep, still a problem.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 02:27 PM
As you can see, this is a very explosive issue.

As one with an adopted child I have thought a great deal about this. At this point in time I am a reluctant supporter of pro-choice because of the point you made about society being reluctant to adopt.

Could you give a biblical explanation to why it's better for a child to be killed by his or her mother while in the womb because adoption may be difficult?
Thanks.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 02:46 PM
Hi, Old Church Guy -

Actually, no - or at least that isn't what I've been debating/discussing.

I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law. My argument is CHANGE THE LAW - leave the women alone. They need love and guidance, not placards and scowls.

Why this constant straw man argument, Vhayes? Who is bothering the "women" and where exactly?
Yes, abortion is legal, but is it right in the eyes of Almighty God?
Do we obey man or God? In other words, just because man says it's right, does not make it a crutch we can lean on.
The bible says woe unto those who call evil good and good evil.


Also - I believe we should offer these women viable alternatives TO abortion. Everyone wants to say abortion is wrong but no one wants to say, "Hey, I'll help care for that child."

That's a falsehood. How can you say, no one wants to say, I'll help care for that child. First of all, you would have to have personal knowledge of EVERYONE, and since you don't you've just smeared all those who work so hard to do the opposite.
There are viable alternatives available, for some reason you just refuse to acknowledge them and I can't fathom why.


Finally, and perhaps most importantly - it's about being told if you are not a staunch anti-abortion person, if you do not find abortion THE issue in all things, you simply cannot be a Christian. Please read the title to this thread.

To support the wholesale slaughter of millions of babies in the womb is no different than supporting the slaughter of any innocent group of people.
For some ungodly reason, location in the womb, has given people license to kill. How horrible, how tragic and how inhumane.
What excuse will God accept?


I've been a Christian for longer than most of the posters in this thread have been alive and I find that type of blanket and sweeping statement (and condemnation) utterly Phariseical and therefore repugnant. I may not have a PhD in theology but I certainly have amassed many degrees in life and the real world. My relationship with my Lord is just fine.

Not surprisingly, women have been giving birth longer than you've been alive or been a Christian, and have found ways to give birth, rather than kill their off spring.
It is possible to love both, the mother and the child and it is possible to help both. And for you to continually act like the prolife Christian is not doing both serves no purpose other than to do the same thing you're accusing others of doing....being judgemental.

Vhayes
Aug 24th 2008, 02:52 PM
Thank you, Redeemed.

I will no longer "act" like anything.

Peace to you -

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 02:55 PM
How can you be supportive of a "choice" that kills the life of an innocent human??

Do you realize that God created that life? Do you realize how God feels about the unborn?

If you do, I honestly have NO IDEA how you could SUPPORT the act of killing a preborn child.

Prov. 24:11 says "Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts and He sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and He knows you knew! He will judge all people according to what they have done."

I like how Randy Alcorn puts it in his book "Prolife answers to prochoice arguments"......

"To be prochoice about someones right to kill is to be antichoice about someone else's right to live."

"Whenver we hear the term prochoice, we must ask the all-important question, 'what choice are we really talking about?' Given the facts about abortion, the question really becomes, 'Do you think people should have the right to choose to kill innocent children if that's what they want to do?"

"An appeal to prochoice Christians....
I appeal to you to come to grips with the impossibility of being prochoice about abortion without undermining the essence of what it means to be a Christian. A Christian can no more be prochoice about killing children before they are born than he can be prochoice about kidnapping or killing 2 year olds.
To endorse or even be neutral about killing innocent children created in God's image is unthinkable in the Scriptures, was unthinkable to Christians in church history, and should be unthinkable to Christians today. True Christians do not mindlessly parrot whatever society happens to be saying. They go back to the Scriptures to see what God says, and they believe it even if it is unpopular. They realize that one day they will stand before the Audience of One, and in that day God's position on abortion will be the standard by which all others are judged."

Great post, I just wanted to highlight the last bit, because while we have the luxury of free will to believe what we want this side of eternity, on that day it will be God's standard that will matter. I'm saddened to learn there are those of His own that think there's a "choice" in the matter on this side.

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 02:58 PM
I personally do not believe we have a right to call nonbelievers murderers when in fact they are not even breaking the existing law. My argument is CHANGE THE LAW - leave the women alone. They need love and guidance, not placards and scowls.

What King David did was legal concerning Uriah. Was he a murderer?

That being said, calling the women murders is often counter productive. The women do need love and guidance. But let's not forget, no matter how much we love them, wish to console them, help them, etc. they are murderers. Having said that, there is no need to push a placard in front of their faces and scowl, etc. They are deceived just as the Apostle Paul was deceived. Name calling won't win them over. But in this forum, why try to call them or suggest they are something they are not, i.e. innocent victims? In real life, let us comfort and help them find forgiveness. Goodness knows how many are wracked with guilt. Anyone involved in ministry knows the scars that abortion leaves.

Vhayes
Aug 24th 2008, 03:03 PM
Thank you, Brother Mark – you have just said something in a manner that “let the penny drop” so to speak.

You said:


Yet, we still have people want to come here and say "Stop trying to stop abortion! Deal with those that are already here". What goes unsaid, but is certainly implied, is that those that are "already" here are more human than those that are being killed.


But that ISN’T what I am saying. I’ll try to explain a bit more clearly what I HAVE been saying (or at least I thought I had).


Abortion (right or wrong) is legal.
Most women who have abortions are unbelievers.
According to their beliefs/social mores/conscience or lack thereof, they are not doing anything wrong.

Each and every child matters; the born as well as the unborn.

What most unbelievers see is condemnation of the women who have an abortion. They seldom if ever see people who adopt, foster or just assist in the training and upbringing of a child who is unwanted. I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying because Christians are so wrapped up in abortion they forget to talk about the love for the toddlers and teens.

To many unbelievers (at least the ones I know) the “face” of Christianity is condemnation and judgement. They see absolutely no love and very little joy – instead they see frowns, scowls and finger wagging. They see Christians as trying to impose their viewpoints and morals on everyone. And they want no part of it. To these folks, I am an anomaly, a freak.

I’m not talking about sloppy agape, I’m talking about biblical love in action.

I appreciate the conversation and I’ve truly enjoyed my time here. It’s now time for me to go – it seems I am an anomaly and a freak here as well.

With respect and affection -
V

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 03:17 PM
Thank you for stating this Sir..... This has been the crux of my and (to an extent) VHayes's argument.

I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

I want to see the LAWS changed (and Im not talking about the abortion laws----yet). I want to see the adoption system in the country overhauled to where average American families can afford to adopt an unwanted child.

Do you have any biblical standard and text to support this view? Could you show me where God says to kill the child in the womb, while working to overhaul the adoption system? If not that, then can you show me where God says to kill the child in the womb if the child is not "wanted" by the parents?


I want to see systems put in place that assist single (teenage and otherwise) mothers and couples that are not ready/able to care for a child be able to actually do that....take care and raise the child....

It's fine and dandy what you want, but what do you suppose God wants?
Does He get a say in this? Do you suppose for a moment He is for women killing their off spring for any reason? Or perhaps, He really meant it when He said, "Children are a heritage and a blessing", with no qualifiers?


But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins......

Wow, you have one low opinion of God's children. I've never seen anyone hold His people in such low esteem.
Are you not aware that there are more CPC's (which are church run, paid for by the church, strickly volunteer, no government funding at all) then there are abortion clinics? And did you know they are purposely set up as close to abortion clinics as possible for the sole purpose or reaching out to these women who are considering abortion? No condemnation whatsover is involved.
How tragic you view God's people as such lowly creatures, because you just painted us all with the same broad brush.


Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?

I'm sure there are such lowly creatures as you've described in the church, since the church is made up of human beings, however, I believe God's people are not nearly the "beat them down" bunch that you describe.

Would you be willing to give us scripture where God is pro-chioce in the matter of abortion?

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 03:21 PM
But that ISN’T what I am saying. I’ll try to explain a bit more clearly what I HAVE been saying (or at least I thought I had).


Abortion (right or wrong) is legal.
Most women who have abortions are unbelievers.
According to their beliefs/social mores/conscience or lack thereof, they are not doing anything wrong.

Most folks that I have spoken with know that abortion is wrong, deep down. Though some do think it is perfectly OK. Many sinners are right in their own eyes. That's always been the case.


Each and every child matters; the born as well as the unborn. Amen. We should work to both change the laws and to help the ones that are born. But did you not see that the guy you agreed with did NOT want to change abortion laws YET?????


What most unbelievers see is condemnation of the women who have an abortion. They seldom if ever see people who adopt, foster or just assist in the training and upbringing of a child who is unwanted. I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying because Christians are so wrapped up in abortion they forget to talk about the love for the toddlers and teens.


To many unbelievers (at least the ones I know) the “face” of Christianity is condemnation and judgement. They see absolutely no love and very little joy – instead they see frowns, scowls and finger wagging. They see Christians as trying to impose their viewpoints and morals on everyone. And they want no part of it. To these folks, I am an anomaly, a freak.

I know. But unbelievers often look for a reason to reject Jesus. In Jesus day, the Pharisees were the ones out there and judgmental. Yet, people still came to Jesus. We will have our Pharisees.

Most unbelievers I talk to don't like Christians because we try to "force" our values on the nation. One of those values is anti-abortion. No matter how nice we try to make it V, the ungodly will not like our value judgments. They just won't. That being said, if sinnners are not comfortable in our presence, then something is wrong. Sinners loved being around Jesus until he started preaching about sin and repentance. So he had an attitude of love they enjoyed. They enjoyed his presence when he fed them. But in the end, many left him when he spoke of the surrender necessary. It's no different today.


I’m not talking about sloppy agape, I’m talking about biblical love in action. I understand that. But we still call sin, sin. We can't back down from that. But let people leave because of our message not because of our style. I hear you on that loud and clear. But if we stop calling abortion sin, how many will repent? Very, very few. One must hear that abortion is wrong before repentance can take place.

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 03:21 PM
Redeemed.....

:thumbsup::thumbsup::agree: to all your posts

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 03:24 PM
Redeemed.....

:thumbsup::thumbsup::agree: to all your posts

Thank you, Truthinlove, and back at ya. :)

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 06:17 PM
Thank you for the quick and polite response. At the risk of sounding like a bothersome child, what are the Bible verses that without question affirm life begins at conception?

Truth With Love gave some excellent verses.

Likewise, as I pointed out, from a natural view (that is, even without Scripture), life at conception is the only logical explanation for when life begins. All other standards fall short and are arbitrary.

Here (http://thechristianwatershed.com/2008/06/02/a-philosophical-argument-against-abortion/) is an article that explains how the abortionist argument of, "It's just cells, not life" doesn't work. It takes a philosophical approach and a non-religious approach to explaining why life at conception is the best definition. This is important - if something can be proven wrong even without appealing to the Scriptures (but is certainly validated by the Scriptures) then it is shown to be a natural law. Natural laws are laws that even the lost are to be held to.


As one with an adopted child I have thought a great deal about this. At this point in time I am a reluctant supporter of pro-choice because of the point you made about society being reluctant to adopt. Even Ronald Regan couldn't swing popular opinion in that direction as I recall. I believe there are situations where abortion could be the best alternative. But society must be more accepting of unwanted pregnancies and willing to adopt and/or promote birth control.

This is simply illogical. Would you support killing children in Africa that are bloated from starvation? Would you support blowing up orphanages - just use so many explosives the little kids don't even feel what happens?

Just because society is reluctant to adopt doesn't mean we have a right to take the child's life. You're arguing that the potential to face a low quality of life is enough warrant to murder. From the same website this (http://thechristianwatershed.com/2008/06/04/if-you-end-abortion-then/) article deals with such type of arguments. Notice how it shows that over 50% of abortions take place in the middle to upper class echelon of society. It's not as though these children would be born into a starving household.


I also agree that determining a persons faith credentials through a single social issue is, at best, being judgmental.

It's not a 'social' issue. This is a matter of whether or not the law should allow a mother to kill her own child. That's hardly a 'social issue.'


Jesus Phreak,


But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins......

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?
__________________

Well one of the problems I have with it is how it goes overboard and misrepresents what everyone is saying. It seems the only way you and Vhayes can make your point is by misrepresenting my own. To date neither one of you have been able to actually argue against what I say, merely against what you represent my argument to be.

Secondly, the problem is that it's an incomplete defense. As the article argues (and as you ignore...shocking) is that we should reach out and help the women and work to make abortions illegal. This isn't an either/or thing. We work to both improve the quality of life and also work to ensure the child has a legal right to that life.

Finally, it's a spurious argument. Most abortions occur among women who could support the child. Most of them are matters of convenience - it's not like they're victims.

Brother Mark,


We can focus on helping and doing for those that are born. What's more hypocritical, those that are pro-choice (i.e. the ultimate child abuse) and are not in favor of outlawing abortion, or those that are pro-life but do nothing to help others? To me the answer is obvious, it's the former. All pro-lifers that I know are for helping the poor children. However, some are so consumed with outlawing abortion, it leaves little time for other things. That's part of how a body functions.

Yet, we still have people want to come here and say "Stop trying to stop abortion! Deal with those that are already here". What goes unsaid, but is certainly implied, is that those that are "already" here are more human than those that are being killed.

EXACTLY! Excellent post.

I think you can attest for me on this issue. A while back I made a post saying that on the abortion issue we should rely more heavily upon our personal actions rather than the law (but still use the law). In this one I'm merely saying we cannot be pro-choice, even if we choose not to engage in getting the law changed.

Makes you wonder where all these pro-choice people were in that previous abortion thread I made. It seems they care more about a woman's right to choose than about practical applications to help the situation - to them, saying "care for the mother" is just a reply in a defense of their pro-choice beliefs.

Redeemed by Him,

Can't quote your entire post, but excellent job.

Vhayes,


What most unbelievers see is condemnation of the women who have an abortion. They seldom if ever see people who adopt, foster or just assist in the training and upbringing of a child who is unwanted. I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying because Christians are so wrapped up in abortion they forget to talk about the love for the toddlers and teens.

To many unbelievers (at least the ones I know) the “face” of Christianity is condemnation and judgement. They see absolutely no love and very little joy – instead they see frowns, scowls and finger wagging. They see Christians as trying to impose their viewpoints and morals on everyone. And they want no part of it. To these folks, I am an anomaly, a freak.

But who here falls into what you're saying? Have you witnessed what we do in our private lives? Have you seen how we handle pregnant mothers? No, you haven't. Instead, you're jumping to massive conclusions without taking the time to find out what is going on.


Secondly, their belief system doesn't matter. Under the Islamic belief system it's okay to kill a woman if she brings dishonor to a family. Should we allow this?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 06:40 PM
Do you have any biblical standard and text to support this view? Could you show me where God says to kill the child in the womb, while working to overhaul the adoption system? If not that, then can you show me where God says to kill the child in the womb if the child is not "wanted" by the parents?

Im really tired of you reading what you want to into my posts...... You dont get it do you? We can sit here and scream "abortion is murder" until we all drop dead.....but you know what? NO ONE IS GOING TO FIX IT....... The problem must be fixed from a different angle........ We MUST give people that find themselves in these situations viable and doable alternatives to abortion.

I realize that killing a child -- born or unborn-- is wrong...... but until we make it so that other options (true counseling -- not what we have today--, training, living assistance, homes where single mothers can live and raise their child with out being condemned for being a single mother....whatever anyone else can possibly conceive) these people will continue to have abortions.

Dont you see?? These women (and there are Christian women who get abortions as well) find themselves in a situation where it is totally lose-lose fro them...... They can have the baby and most likely have to raise it themselves and then face the judgemental people (in the church as well) who will talk behind their backs and will completly treat them differently because of a mistake made. Or they can have an abortion and never have to worry about that but yet end a human life.....now put yourself in their shoes and honestly tell me what you would do....or better yet if you have a daughter.....what would you do if you KNEW that you and she would be
completely ostrecized because she became pregnant. And dont you DARE tell me that the church does not do that........



It's fine and dandy what you want, but what do you suppose God wants?
Does He get a say in this? Do you suppose for a moment He is for women killing their off spring for any reason? Or perhaps, He really meant it when He said, "Children are a heritage and a blessing", with no qualifiers?

Go back and look at ALL my posts and show me one that shows me saying Im FOR abortion......show me one...... I have said (and I guess I have to say it yet again) I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion?




Wow, you have one low opinion of God's children. I've never seen anyone hold His people in such low esteem.
Are you not aware that there are more CPC's (which are church run, paid for by the church, strickly volunteer, no government funding at all) then there are abortion clinics? And did you know they are purposely set up as close to abortion clinics as possible for the sole purpose or reaching out to these women who are considering abortion? No condemnation whatsover is involved.
How tragic you view God's people as such lowly creatures, because you just painted us all with the same broad brush.

Again you dont get it do you lady????? I heard a joke once and the sad thing is no one laughed because of how true it is....... Where is the most judgmental place on earth? A church......

We are SUPPOSED to be accepting of everyone and love them the way we wish to be loved.....but how many times have you seen someone who lives on the streets walk in the church in need of some love and assistance and then be shunned by God's children????? Ive seen it so many times it makes me sick and almos t ashamed to be associated with te Church...... (notice I said the church as it is run by man.....not God) Ive taken in a young girl that decided to have her baby (she was only 16 when she gave birth) because everyone else abandoned her (her real and church families) because she had become a "disgrace"

So dont you dare wave your righteous flag around me lady..... Its time for Christians to wake up and start doing what we are supposed to..... get off our lazy butts and actually roll up our sleeves and get some work done...... Dont you see? Or is it all you care about that we get a law changed? The day you take in a teenager that decides to keep her baby and you help raise her and the child (who is now 3 by the way) is the day you will earn ANY right to talk to me about how righteous you are....... Im sick of the self righteous attitude of some Christians.......



I'm sure there are such lowly creatures as you've described in the church, since the church is made up of human beings, however, I believe God's people are not nearly the "beat them down" bunch that you describe.

Ask the girl that lived with me...... ask the people who all they want is a hand up from the church but yet are turned away because they smell or their clothes are tattered. Why dont you go find the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew and tell me that you dont agree with it????? It makes my heart break to think of how elitest the church has become..... We have forgetten that Christ took care of the sl*ts, and the prostitutes and the thieves, liars, the poor and the downright scoundrals of the earth....do you walk with those people on a daily basis? Or do you worry about who has your seat in church? Do you pull the homeless man that walks into church looking for help up to the front of the sanctuary and do WHATEEVER you can to help get him on his feet or do you just walk by him on your way out and maybe give him a dollar or two?


Would you be willing to give us scripture where God is pro-chioce in the matter of abortion?


Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

How many more times do you wish for me to say it?

Now Im sorry for the tone of this post...... but the Jesus I serve loved all people not just the ones who screamed their beliefs the loudest.

I love all of you as you are all my brothers and sisters..... but it is time we woke up and realized that there are a LOT of people that need help......

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 06:55 PM
Im really tired of you reading what you want to into my posts...... You dont get it do you? We can sit here and scream "abortion is murder" until we all drop dead.....but you know what? NO ONE IS GOING TO FIX IT....... The problem must be fixed from a different angle........ We MUST give people that find themselves in these situations viable and doable alternatives to abortion.

I realize that killing a child -- born or unborn-- is wrong...... but until we make it so that other options (true counseling -- not what we have today--, training, living assistance, homes where single mothers can live and raise their child with out being condemned for being a single mother....whatever anyone else can possibly conceive) these people will continue to have abortions.

Dont you see?? These women (and there are Christian women who get abortions as well) find themselves in a situation where it is totally lose-lose fro them...... They can have the baby and most likely have to raise it themselves and then face the judgemental people (in the church as well) who will talk behind their backs and will completly treat them differently because of a mistake made. Or they can have an abortion and never have to worry about that but yet end a human life.....now put yourself in their shoes and honestly tell me what you would do....or better yet if you have a daughter.....what would you do if you KNEW that you and she would be
completely ostrecized because she became pregnant. And dont you DARE tell me that the church does not do that........




Go back and look at ALL my posts and show me one that shows me saying Im FOR abortion......show me one...... I have said (and I guess I have to say it yet again) I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion?





Again you dont get it do you lady????? I heard a joke once and the sad thing is no one laughed because of how true it is....... Where is the most judgmental place on earth? A church......

We are SUPPOSED to be accepting of everyone and love them the way we wish to be loved.....but how many times have you seen someone who lives on the streets walk in the church in need of some love and assistance and then be shunned by God's children????? Ive seen it so many times it makes me sick and almos t ashamed to be associated with te Church...... (notice I said the church as it is run by man.....not God) Ive taken in a young girl that decided to have her baby (she was only 16 when she gave birth) because everyone else abandoned her (her real and church families) because she had become a "disgrace"

So dont you dare wave your righteous flag around me lady..... Its time for Christians to wake up and start doing what we are supposed to..... get off our lazy butts and actually roll up our sleeves and get some work done...... Dont you see? Or is it all you care about that we get a law changed? The day you take in a teenager that decides to keep her baby and you help raise her and the child (who is now 3 by the way) is the day you will earn ANY right to talk to me about how righteous you are....... Im sick of the self righteous attitude of some Christians.......




Ask the girl that lived with me...... ask the people who all they want is a hand up from the church but yet are turned away because they smell or their clothes are tattered. Why dont you go find the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew and tell me that you dont agree with it????? It makes my heart break to think of how elitest the church has become..... We have forgetten that Christ took care of the sl*ts, and the prostitutes and the thieves, liars, the poor and the downright scoundrals of the earth....do you walk with those people on a daily basis? Or do you worry about who has your seat in church? Do you pull the homeless man that walks into church looking for help up to the front of the sanctuary and do WHATEEVER you can to help get him on his feet or do you just walk by him on your way out and maybe give him a dollar or two?




Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

How many more times do you wish for me to say it?

Now Im sorry for the tone of this post...... but the Jesus I serve loved all people not just the ones who screamed their beliefs the loudest.

I love all of you as you are all my brothers and sisters..... but it is time we woke up and realized that there are a LOT of people that need help......

Speaking of judgmental, have you looked at yourself lately?

Do you realize that you just lumped us all in with what you see wrong with the church?

Let me ask you:

* Do you know what ministries we're part of

* Do you know if any of our ministries help unwed mothers (or pregnant women that are single)

* Do you know how much time we volunteer at homeless shelters

* Do you know how much time we've put into helping inner-city people

* Do you know how much we've invested into teenagers

I could go on, but the fact is you don't know a thing about any of us. You're judging us based upon our view on pro-choice. Whereas I'm coming out and saying pro-choice is inconsistent with Christianity (which it is) and using arguments to back it up, you're assuming that we don't do a thing to help the community. Fact is, some of us probably do more than you do because it's our ministry and vocation.

Fact is, we help out and we call for the law to change. What's your problem with that? Is it because you want to be pro-choice, which ultimately undermines your actions for these ladies and your belief in Christ?

So drop the attitude and deal with the arguments presented.

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 06:55 PM
Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

Does that include the right to kill a 2 year old child if the purpose suits the parent? Why not leave that choice to the parent and maker too?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 07:58 PM
Im really tired of you reading what you want to into my posts...... You dont get it do you? We can sit here and scream "abortion is murder" until we all drop dead.....but you know what? NO ONE IS GOING TO FIX IT....... The problem must be fixed from a different angle........ We MUST give people that find themselves in these situations viable and doable alternatives to abortion.

There are viable and doable alternatives to abortion, it's called adoption, and though it's expensive, there is still a waiting list for prospective parents. I have a url that lists such parents by state.
There are also CPC's all around the country that outnumber abortion clinics.
With the attitude that "NO ONE IS GOING TO FIX IT" (who is really doing the screaming here?) probably doesn't help much, but should we stop trying and allow 4,000 babies a day be killed in the meantime? And since when is doing the right thing dependant on outside forces?



I realize that killing a child -- born or unborn-- is wrong...... but until we make it so that other options (true counseling -- not what we have today--, training, living assistance, homes where single mothers can live and raise their child with out being condemned for being a single mother....whatever anyone else can possibly conceive) these people will continue to have abortions.

Yes, "these people", (I prefer to think of them as women) will continue to have abortions, and other people will continue to do all types of things that are immoral, but, for some reason, only killing children in the womb seems to get a pass because of the difficulties that can arise.
It's difficult to live with someone who has hurt you, but we don't sanction vengence, we have laws to address those issues, now don't we?


Dont you see?? These women (and there are Christian women who get abortions as well) find themselves in a situation where it is totally lose-lose fro them...... They can have the baby and most likely have to raise it themselves and then face the judgemental people (in the church as well) who will talk behind their backs and will completly treat them differently because of a mistake made. Or they can have an abortion and never have to worry about that but yet end a human life.....now put yourself in their shoes and honestly tell me what you would do....or better yet if you have a daughter.....what would you do if you KNEW that you and she would be
completely ostrecized because she became pregnant. And dont you DARE tell me that the church does not do that........

I all ready addressed the fact that there are people in the church who do not live up to the standards of Godly love set by our Lord, so I don't have to "dare" anything.

As far as personal situations, they truly are none of your business, so you are the one who is doing the "DARING" (and the shouting, I might add).
However, to quelch your incessant belief that others have to experience something to know it is wrong, I have been in those shoes, both pairs, myself and my daugther and end result was no abortions.
I prayed that my grandaughter's life would be spared, as the pressures for my daughter to abort were intense, but I claimed God's Word that, "no plauge shall come nigh my dwelling." And now that darling girl is getting ready to get her driver's license and is planning on going to college.

How dare anyone suggest that any child concieved under any dire circumstance is not worthy of life and a chance to experience the plans that God has for them...if we're going to "dare".
Is God so impotent that He cannot intervene?



Go back and look at ALL my posts and show me one that shows me saying Im FOR abortion......show me one...... I have said (and I guess I have to say it yet again) I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion?

Yes, since you are pro-choice you must be pro-abortion. Sorry, but you don't get to make up the definitions. And please tell me where the "choice" to have an abortion is missing in the meaning of "pro-choice"?


American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html) - pro-choice (prō-chois')
adj. Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy to term.

Online Etymology Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/etymon.html) -
pro-choice

"favoring a right to abortion," 1975, from pro- + choice.


WordNet (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/wn.html) - pro-choice
adjectiveadvocating a woman's right to control her own body (especially her right to an induced abortion)




Again you dont get it do you lady????? I heard a joke once and the sad thing is no one laughed because of how true it is....... Where is the most judgmental place on earth? A church......

I'm sorry, but since when are jokes a valid criteria for accepting something as fact?


We are SUPPOSED to be accepting of everyone and love them the way we wish to be loved.....but how many times have you seen someone who lives on the streets walk in the church in need of some love and assistance and then be shunned by God's children????? Ive seen it so many times it makes me sick and almos t ashamed to be associated with te Church...... (notice I said the church as it is run by man.....not God) Ive taken in a young girl that decided to have her baby (she was only 16 when she gave birth) because everyone else abandoned her (her real and church families) because she had become a "disgrace"

I haven't seen nearly any of these things like you discribe.
I noticed that you say the "church as ran by man", not by God, but to believe your rhetoric, the "church", which is made up of God's people, might as well pack up and go home, they have failed on all fronts.
However, I do not beileve that to be the case.
I'm not ashamed to be part of God's church.
And with this heart wrenching example, please tell me how that justifies perfectly healthy women aborting perfectly healthy babies? Where does God justify it, is the real point, isn't it?


So dont you dare wave your righteous flag around me lady..... Its time for Christians to wake up and start doing what we are supposed to..... get off our lazy butts and actually roll up our sleeves and get some work done...... Dont you see? Or is it all you care about that we get a law changed? The day you take in a teenager that decides to keep her baby and you help raise her and the child (who is now 3 by the way) is the day you will earn ANY right to talk to me about how righteous you are....... Im sick of the self righteous attitude of some Christians.......

I'm not talking about being self righteous, you have done nothing but attack people on a personal level, and have all the while never once addressed the questions asked concerning the Word of the Living God.
Until you address God's views on this subject, I'd say you were the one who is proclaiming the self-righteousness.

Where does God fit into your beliefs on this subject? Anywhere? Does He get a say or not?



Ask the girl that lived with me...... ask the people who all they want is a hand up from the church but yet are turned away because they smell or their clothes are tattered. Why dont you go find the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew and tell me that you dont agree with it????? It makes my heart break to think of how elitest the church has become..... We have forgetten that Christ took care of the sl*ts, and the prostitutes and the thieves, liars, the poor and the downright scoundrals of the earth....do you walk with those people on a daily basis? Or do you worry about who has your seat in church? Do you pull the homeless man that walks into church looking for help up to the front of the sanctuary and do WHATEEVER you can to help get him on his feet or do you just walk by him on your way out and maybe give him a dollar or two?

Self righteous....wow, I'd say you've taken it to new heights.

And with all this said, again, what has any of this to do with a woman having the right to kill her own child? What?



Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

How many more times do you wish for me to say it?

Oh, there's no need to say it again, but there is a need for some understanding here and for you to answer a question.

One cannot be pro any kind of chioce that allows for the killing of any innocent person and still be pro-life. And since when does what choice I make that harms another just between me and my Maker?
You like to throw out the hyperbole, but you never back it up with Scripture, why is that?


Now Im sorry for the tone of this post...... but the Jesus I serve loved all people not just the ones who screamed their beliefs the loudest.

I love all of you as you are all my brothers and sisters..... but it is time we woke up and realized that there are a LOT of people that need help......

I accept your apology for the tone, I don't take these things personally.
Civil debate is a good thing.

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
We can sit here and scream "abortion is murder" until we all drop dead.....but you know what? NO ONE IS GOING TO FIX IT....... The problem must be fixed from a different angle........ We MUST give people that find themselves in these situations viable and doable alternatives to abortion.

I realize that killing a child -- born or unborn-- is wrong...... but until we make it so that other options (true counseling -- not what we have today--, training, living assistance, homes where single mothers can live and raise their child with out being condemned for being a single mother....whatever anyone else can possibly conceive) these people will continue to have abortions.

Dont you see?? These women (and there are Christian women who get abortions as well) find themselves in a situation where it is totally lose-lose fro them...... They can have the baby and most likely have to raise it themselves and then face the judgemental people (in the church as well) who will talk behind their backs and will completly treat them differently because of a mistake made. Or they can have an abortion and never have to worry about that but yet end a human life.....now put yourself in their shoes and honestly tell me what you would do....or better yet if you have a daughter.....what would you do if you KNEW that you and she would be
completely ostrecized because she became pregnant. And dont you DARE tell me that the church does not do that........


I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion?


Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

there are a LOT of people that need help......
I agree. The root of the abortion problem is the attitudes and activities that lead to a woman getting pregnant when she does not wish to be.

As JP stated, to be pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion.
It means that we trust that the Lord knows what is going on and He is in charge.
The Lord knows ahead of time which babies will miscarry and which will live.
He knows which ones will be born living but have serious birth defects and will die within a matter of hours.
He knows which ones will be born into families that will abuse them rather than love them.
He knows which ones will be aborted as well.
Why would he allow women to become pregnant if they don't want to be when there are other women who desperately want to become pregnant who can't?
I don't know.
But God does.
And, He works all things together for good.

God puts each baby into each woman's womb knowing ahead of time what the results will be.
He put the choice into the hands of the woman whose womb He put the baby into.

I would hope and pray that women who are blessed enough to become pregnant would be thankful and would treasure each child.

If the Lord leads some people to work on changing the abortion laws then they should follow His leading and do that.

But, that does not mean that Christians who are not lead to do that are not-Christian or are somehow inferior to those who are. The Lord leads each of us in different ways at different times.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 08:28 PM
I agree. The root of the abortion problem is the attitudes and activities that lead to a woman getting pregnant when she does not wish to be.

As JP stated, to be pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion.
It means that we trust that the Lord knows what is going on and He is in charge.
The Lord knows ahead of time which babies will miscarry and which will live.
He knows which ones will be born living but have serious birth defects and will die within a matter of hours.
He knows which ones will be born into families that will abuse them rather than love them.
He knows which ones will be aborted as well.
Why would he allow women to become pregnant if they don't want to be when there are other women who desperately want to become pregnant who can't?
I don't know.
But God does.
And, He works all things together for good.

God puts each baby into each woman's womb knowing ahead of time what the results will be.
He put the choice into the hands of the woman whose womb He put the baby into.

I would hope and pray that women who are blessed enough to become pregnant would be thankful and would treasure each child.

If the Lord leads some people to work on changing the abortion laws then they should follow His leading and do that.

But, that does not mean that Christians who are not lead to do that are not-Christian or are somehow inferior to those who are. The Lord leads each of us in different ways at different times.


Maybe you'll be the one who can answer this with Scriptural back up.

How does any of what you said, justify the killing of a child in the womb by his or her mother? How is God sanctiong that action, and if He isn't how can we support it as Christians?

God said for each that have been created in His image, by the way, this:

For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans to proseper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jer. 29:11

How does that fit into abortion rights?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 08:38 PM
Maybe you'll be the one who can answer this with Scriptural back up.

How does any of what you said, justify the killing of a child in the womb by his or her mother? How is God sanctiong that action, and if He isn't how can we support it as Christians?

God said for each that have been created in His image, by the way, this:

For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans to proseper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jer. 29:11

How does that fit into abortion rights?
God knows the plans that He has for each one of us. He knows what will happen to each one of us. He is in control.
I would not chose to nor would I recommend that anyone have or perform an abortion.
I am not justifying it at all.
There are many things that people do and that happen that are not sanctioned by God.

The world is in a fallen situation.

I am not for abortion.
I just do not feel that I can make that choice for another woman.
At this time abortion is legal so each woman has the legal right to make that choice.
As I stated, if some people are lead by the Lord to try to change those laws, then they should pray and follow the Lord's leading.

However, that does not make people who are not lead in that way not Christian.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 08:46 PM
God knows the plans that He has for each one of us. He knows what will happen to each one of us. He is in control.
I would not chose to nor would I recommend that anyone have or perform an abortion.
I am not justifying it at all.
There are many things that people do and that happen that are not sanctioned by God.

The world is in a fallen situation.

I am not for abortion.
I just do not feel that I can make that choice for another woman.
At this time abortion is legal so each woman has the legal right to make that choice.
As I stated, if some people are lead by the Lord to try to change those laws, then they should pray and follow the Lord's leading.

However, that does not make people who are not lead in that way not Christian.

I'm still so puzzled by the this kind of tortured logic. (no offense intended)

Again, how does any of this make abortion right in the sight of a Holy and just God?
No, we can't make the "choice" for anyone on anything, that has to be done by the individual. However, what we sanction matters to God.
It has nothing to do about what people are led to do....since when do outside forces have anything to do with doing what is right in the site of God?
Must I be led by the hand to know that "thou shall not murder" is God's view on the taking of innocent life?

Yes, the world is fallen, does that mean we allow other sins to prevail and laws should be overturned as to allow stealing, murder of born people, rape, etc.? Why is it that the baby in the womb should not be protected too?

Romans 13 was set forth by God to curtail evil....I would hope God's people would allow that to protect the innocent child in the womb too.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 08:52 PM
Toymom, I hope you'll allow me to take this a little further, when you said you were not for abortion but you feel you can't make that "choice" for another woman", would you carry that over to not interferring with someone who was killing born children?

Or is just the child in the womb that should be left to the mercy of his or her mother?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 08:55 PM
Again, how does any of this make abortion right in the sight of a Holy and just God?
No, we can't make the "choice" for anyone on anything, that has to be done by the individual. However, what we sanction matters to God.
It has nothing to do about what people are led to do....since when do outside forces have anything to do with doing what is right in the site of God?
Must I be led by the hand to know that "thou shall not murder" is God's view on the taking of innocent life?

Yes, the world is fallen, does that mean we allow other sins to prevail and laws should be overturned as to allow stealing, murder of born people, rape, etc.? Why is it that the baby in the womb should not be protected too?

Romans 13 was set forth by God to curtail evil....I would hope God's people would allow that to protect the innocent child in the womb too.
I have never stated that abortion is right.
I do believe that it is wrong.
However, at this point in time, it is legal.
There are many other things that are legal that are wrong.
I personally think that tobacco should be illegal.
It kills way more people than abortion does I would imagine especially if you count secondhand smoke. (but that is a totally different topic)

Anyway, I am not trying to defend abortion at all.

I am just stating that people who are pro-choice are not necessarily pro-abortion, they merely feel that each woman has been given the choice by God to do what she will with her own body and any child that the Lord choses to place within it.

If they feel that way, that does not mean that they want women to have abortions.
It does not mean that they feel abortions are good or right in the eyes of the Lord.

And the main point that I wish to make is that it does not mean that they cannot be or are not Christians.

If Christ lives in us then we are Christians.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:03 PM
I have never stated that abortion is right.
I do believe that it is wrong.
However, at this point in time, it is legal.
There are many other things that are legal that are wrong.
I personally think that tobacco should be illegal.
It kills way more people than abortion does I would imagine especially if you count secondhand smoke. (but that is a totally different topic)

Anyway, I am not trying to defend abortion at all.

I am just stating that people who are pro-choice are not necessarily pro-abortion, they merely feel that each woman has been given the choice by God to do what she will with her own body and any child that the Lord choses to place within it.

If they feel that way, that does not mean that they want women to have abortions.
It does not mean that they feel abortions are good or right in the eyes of the Lord.

And the main point that I wish to make is that it does not mean that they cannot be or are not Christians.

If Christ lives in us then we are Christians.



So, to you a person can be pro-abortion, participate and or condone and support abortions and be Christian?

Yes, we've been given free will, but God says in His Word that our bodies are not our own and what we yield to is who we serve, does He not?

Doesn't God expect us in due time to realize that we cannot support murder of any kind?

Why is it only the killing of the child in the womb that gets the pass? I truly do not understand.
I know others have said, "but there is no free pass", but that's hogwash, it is if there are no consequenses involved. And especially if God's people bend over backwards to make sure there is no stigma to the act.
We can love the sinner while hating the sin and calling sin, sin.

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 09:22 PM
So, to you a person can be pro-abortion, participate and or condone and support abortions and be Christian?

Yes, we've been given free will, but God says in His Word that our bodies are not our own and what we yield to is who we serve, does He not?

Doesn't God expect us in due time to realize that we cannot support murder of any kind?

Why is it only the killing of the child in the womb that gets the pass? I truly do not understand.
I know others have said, "but there is no free pass", but that's hogwash, it is if there are no consequenses involved. And especially if God's people bend over backwards to make sure there is no stigma to the act.
We can love the sinner while hating the sin and calling sin, sin.
It is not the following of the law that makes us Christians.
It is Christ in us the hope of glory that makes us Christians.
And none of us are glorified yet.
We are all sinners.
There is no free pass.
Sin is sin.
Do you never lie?
Have you never cheated or stolen anything?
Are you perfect right now?
If you are not, does that mean that you are not or cannot be a Christian?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:28 PM
It is not the following of the law that makes us Christians.
It is Christ in us the hope of glory that makes us Christians.
And none of us are glorified yet.
We are all sinners.
There is no free pass.
Sin is sin.
Do you never lie?
Have you never cheated or stolen anything?
Are you perfect right now?
If you are not, does that mean that you are not or cannot be a Christian?

How does this answer my question:

Doesn't God expect us in due time to realize that we cannot support murder of any kind?

I don't think it has anything to do with being "perfect", none of us are or ever will be this side of eternity.
But, there are some things we better get straight, if Paul was led to list the sins that will not allow us to enter into the Kingdom, shouldn't we grow enough to learn that abortion is not sanctioned by God?
Can we be Christians for our entire lives and support murder of any kind?

Also, would you care to answer the following:
I hope you'll allow me to take this a little further, when you said you were not for abortion but you feel you can't make that "choice" for another woman", would you carry that over to not interferring with someone who was killing born children?

Or is just the child in the womb that should be left to the mercy of his or her mother?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 09:31 PM
How does this answer my question:

Doesn't God expect us in due time to realize that we cannot support murder of any kind?
I don't think it has anything to do with being "perfect", none of us are or ever will be this side of eternity.
But, there are some things we better get straight, if Paul was led to list the sins that will not allow us to enter into the Kingdom, shouldn't we grow enough to learn that abortion is not sanctioned by God?
Can we be Christians for our entire lives and support murder of any kind?
When is "in due time"?
What if someone is a Christian and is pro-choice and dies in a car wreck tomorrow and has never reached that "in due time" point and dies still being pro-choice? Do you think that person was not really a Christian?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:35 PM
When is "in due time"?
What if someone is a Christian and is pro-choice and dies in a car wreck tomorrow and has never reached that "in due time" point and dies still being pro-choice? Do you think that person was not really a Christian?

That's the fallacy and problem in my question and the belief that we can tinker around with such serious issues as life and death and what God sanctions and does not.

But, to answer your question as asked, only God can judge that.

Now, would you be willing to answer my other question?

When you said you were not for abortion but you feel you can't make that "choice" for another woman", would you carry that over to not interferring with someone who was killing born children?

Or is just the child in the womb that should be left to the mercy of his or her mother?

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 09:37 PM
I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion?


So, according to your logic, if my neighbor was violently abusing their child, it is between them and God??? I would have no right to tell them that abusing their child is wrong?? Give me a break


We are SUPPOSED to be accepting of everyone and love them the way we wish to be lovedTrue, accepting of people, but not accepting or supporting wrong and sinful behavior and actions!


Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.
And again...............you ARE pro-abortion by supporting a women's choice to kill her unborn child! You just refuse to see that.

Do you think that Jesus would support a women's choice to abort her baby?? No way!
Yes, he would love the women and be compassionate, but he never support the killing of a child he created!
When a "choice" overrides the right to life of another it no longer is a choice!

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
Here's the problem with what the pro-choice crowd is saying. They're saying it's a choice between a woman and God what she does. Fine, if we accept that though then we must advocate that a man who rapes and kills his own daughter shouldn't be held legally accountable because he has made a choice between him and his God. After all, we haven't put ourselves in his position.

Not a single one of them can respond to this (or have they even attempted).

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
That's the fallacy and problem in my question and the belief that we can tinker around with such serious issues as life and death and what God sanctions and does not.

But, to answer your question as asked, only God can judge that.

Now, would you be willing to answer my other question?

When you said you were not for abortion but you feel you can't make that "choice" for another woman", would you carry that over to not interferring with someone who was killing born children?

Or is just the child in the womb that should be left to the mercy of his or her mother?
Sadly, there are people who kill their own children even though it is illegal.
And no, I don't think that people should have any right to do that.


Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:44 PM
Here's the problem with what the pro-choice crowd is saying. They're saying it's a choice between a woman and God what she does. Fine, if we accept that though then we must advocate that a man who rapes and kills his own daughter shouldn't be held legally accountable because he has made a choice between him and his God. After all, we haven't put ourselves in his position.

Not a single one of them can respond to this (or have they even attempted).

I've been waiting years for a response to this, AK.
Is it really location and out of sight, out of mind, that is influencing people to believe that one can kill their child in the womb, but not one out of the womb???? Does God feel that way, and when will that question ever be answered?

We had better know what God thinks on these issues, we don't get a do-over the other side of this life.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:47 PM
Sadly, there are people who kill their own children even though it is illegal.
And no, I don't think that people should have any right to do that.


Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God.


Then why would you feel you could not interfer with a woman's "choice" in killing the child she carries in the womb? Is it really just location that matters?

I guess I'd like to ask this too, were you saddened or glad when RvW was passed and if you're too young to remember, are you glad the law is in effect now?

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 09:47 PM
Sadly, there are people who kill their own children even though it is illegal.
And no, I don't think that people should have any right to do that.


Hmmmm, so the place of residence of the child is what makes a difference??

If it is in the womb, the mom has a right to abort it, but if it now lives outside the womb, it is wrong for her to kill it??

Or, is it just what is legal vs. illegal??

Was abortion wrong and immoral on Jan. 21st 1973 simply because it was illegal and then all of the sudden because it became legal on Jan 22nd 1973 it is an acceptable choice for a women to make?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 09:54 PM
I am not defending abortion.
I am simply stating that those people who are pro-choice can still be Christians.
People who have abortions and people who perform abortions can still be Christians too.
Murderers and rapists can still be Christians.
Liars and thieves can still be Christians.

If Christ lives in us then we are Christians.

Christ died for our sins.

He forgives us.

It does not make our actions ok.
It does not mean that we will not suffer consequences of our actions.

But, being stupid human sinners does not mean that we cannot still be Christians.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 09:57 PM
I am not defending abortion.
I am simply stating that those people who are pro-choice can still be Christians.
People who have abortions and people who perform abortions can still be Christians too.
Murderers and rapists can still be Christians.
Liars and thieves can still be Christians.

If Christ lives in us then we are Christians.

Christ died for our sins.

He forgives us.

It does not make our actions ok.
It does not mean that we will not suffer consequences of our actions.

But, being stupid human sinners does not mean that we cannot still be Christians.

So, the list that Paul gave that clearly states what will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom does not apply?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, forgive me if it seems that way, but I'm just trying to truly understand this position.
I can't see how someone who performs abortions for a living can expect to inherit the Kingdom, isn't repentence a requirement?

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 10:03 PM
I agree. The root of the abortion problem is the attitudes and activities that lead to a woman getting pregnant when she does not wish to be.

As JP stated, to be pro-choice is not the same as being pro-abortion.
It means that we trust that the Lord knows what is going on and He is in charge.
The Lord knows ahead of time which babies will miscarry and which will live.
He knows which ones will be born living but have serious birth defects and will die within a matter of hours.
He knows which ones will be born into families that will abuse them rather than love them.
He knows which ones will be aborted as well.
Why would he allow women to become pregnant if they don't want to be when there are other women who desperately want to become pregnant who can't?
I don't know.
But God does.
And, He works all things together for good.

God puts each baby into each woman's womb knowing ahead of time what the results will be.
He put the choice into the hands of the woman whose womb He put the baby into.

So if that woman wants to kill her 2 year old baby, we should just stand by and let it happen, because God gave her the choice?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:03 PM
So, the list that Paul gave that clearly states what will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom does not apply?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, forgive me if it seems that way, but I'm just trying to truly understand this position.
I can't see how someone who performs abortions for a living can expect to inherit the Kingdom, isn't repentence a requirement?
Do you think that people can lose their salvation if they sin and then don't repent?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:05 PM
So if that woman wants to kill her 2 year old baby, we should just stand by and let it happen, because God gave her the choice?

No. I don't think He gave us that choice.

Brother Mark
Aug 24th 2008, 10:05 PM
Do you think that people can lose their salvation if they sin and then don't repent?

But you aren't speaking of repentance. You are speaking of someone that continues to promote the ability of people to kill babies. That's not repentance. That's enabling.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:06 PM
Do you think that people can lose their salvation if they sin and then don't repent?

I don't want to turn this into a OSAS issue.

I'm asking if repentence isn't a requirement for salvation in the first place?
And how can someone who performs abortions expect to inherit the Kingdom, doesn't "thou shall not murder" and what Paul listed matter at all?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:07 PM
No. I don't think He gave us that choice.


Where in Scripture does it say He has given us the choice to kill the child in the womb, but not out?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:13 PM
But you aren't speaking of repentance. You are speaking of someone that continues to promote the ability of people to kill babies. That's not repentance. That's enabling.
I never said anything about continuously enabling anything.
I merely said that someone who holds pro-choice views can still be a Christian.
The op states that someone who holds pro-choice views cannot be a Christian.
Merely holding pro-choice views does not mean that a person is performing or having abortions or even voting for pro-choice candidates.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:19 PM
I never said anything about continuously enabling anything.
I merely said that someone who holds pro-choice views can still be a Christian.
The op states that someone who holds pro-choice views cannot be a Christian.
Merely holding pro-choice views does not mean that a person is performing or having abortions or even voting for pro-choice candidates.


Then why on earth be pro-choice?
Whatever would be the point? :confused

Or is it just that you don't want to see other women have that choice taken from them, the "choice" to kill their very own children?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:21 PM
I don't want to turn this into a OSAS issue.

I'm asking if repentence isn't a requirement for salvation in the first place?
And how can someone who performs abortions expect to inherit the Kingdom, doesn't "thou shall not murder" and what Paul listed matter at all?
So, is this about people who are pro-choice, women who have had abortions or doctors who perform them?

I think that the verses in 1 Cor. 6 are about inheriting a reward in the kingdom.

I think that it may be an OSAS issue if you think that if someone commits any of those sins after being saved that they lose their salvation.

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:23 PM
Then why on earth be pro-choice?
Whatever would be the point? :confused

Or is it just that you don't want to see other women have that choice taken from them, the "choice" to kill their very own children?
I don't know why people are pro-choice or why they smoke cigarettes or why they ride motorcycles without helmets or why they drive drunk or any matter of things.
But, it does not affect their eternal salvation and it does not mean that they cannot be Christians.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:27 PM
So, is this about people who are pro-choice, women who have had abortions or doctors who perform them?

I think that the verses in 1 Cor. 6 are about inheriting a reward in the kingdom.

I think that it may be an OSAS issue if you think that if someone commits any of those sins after being saved that they lose their salvation.



1Corth. 6 says this:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

It doesn't have anything to do with rewards.

I'm trying not to turn this into an OSAS issue, I'm talking about un-repented sin before or after salvation.

Well, I only brought up the doctors because you did and it struck me highly odd that you would think anyone who continues to take innocent life, without repentence would see the Kingdom of God.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:28 PM
I don't know why people are pro-choice or why they smoke cigarettes or why they ride motorcycles without helmets or why they drive drunk or any matter of things.
But, it does not affect their eternal salvation and it does not mean that they cannot be Christians.

Can you show me in Scripture where we can be pro-murder of any innocent human beings and still be Christians?
Please, Scripture references. Thanks.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 10:32 PM
So if that woman wants to kill her 2 year old baby, we should just stand by and let it happen, because God gave her the choice?




I hate to put it in to this context but it is just the same as the man who is driving home and gets killed by a drunk driver........ it wasnt his fault that he died but God called him home at that point for His reason. Do we know why? No.....

So what is the difference in the two?

The difference is that the man that kills his two year old daughter will face judgment. Now if he is a believer and has repented then he joins us in heaven....if not....well then he goes to hell.

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 10:33 PM
I don't want to turn this into a OSAS issue.

I'm asking if repentence isn't a requirement for salvation in the first place?
And how can someone who performs abortions expect to inherit the Kingdom, doesn't "thou shall not murder" and what Paul listed matter at all?

But doesnt Jesus tell us that He can forgive ALL sins?

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 10:36 PM
Can you show me in Scripture where we can be pro-murder of any innocent human beings and still be Christians?
Please, Scripture references. Thanks.
Can you show me in scriptures where it says that one's thoughts and views affect one's salvation? Please, Scripture references.

And, do you think it is ok to be pro-murder of people who are not innocent then?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:36 PM
But doesnt Jesus tell us that He can forgive ALL sins?

Have I said He doesn't?

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 10:38 PM
Can you show me in Scripture where we can be pro-murder of any innocent human beings and still be Christians?
Please, Scripture references. Thanks.

Look to my post that lists the things we have to do to be given salvation....no where does it say that we have to be held under different laws...... Faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was risen 3 days later guarentess our salvation. Christ said the ONLY sin that we can commit that He cannot forgive is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

I hate to tell you but that is what the Word of God says....its right there in black and white and red.......

And regardless of what Paul says about this or that Im going to take the words in red (Jesus' words) over ANYONE else's.

According to Paul women are not supposed to hold a position of authority over men but yet look at Joyce Meyer and Paula White......

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 10:39 PM
Have I said He doesn't?

Ok.... I appologize....with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit He will forgive all sins......

JesusPhreak27
Aug 24th 2008, 10:40 PM
Can you show me in Scripture where we can be pro-murder of any innocent human beings and still be Christians?
Please, Scripture references. Thanks.


So does that mean that soldiers are guilty as well? Because in a fire fight I guarentee you that all soldiers Christian or not ar "pro-murder"

Truthinlove
Aug 24th 2008, 10:45 PM
All I see from the pro-choicers is "answering" questions with more questions to avoid answering the questions or points we raise.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:46 PM
Can you show me in scriptures where it says that one's thoughts and views affect one's salvation? Please, Scripture references.

And, do you think it is ok to be pro-murder of people who are not innocent then?



You need to be the one giving scripture references to believe that we can be pro-choice (abortion) and inherit the Kingdom, as you seem to believe is possible.
But, the word does say,

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

If those things remain without repentence, how then can we say we are Christ like?

Of course I don't think it's ok to be pro-murder of anyone, I must have worded that wrong.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:50 PM
All I see from the pro-choicers is "answering" questions with more questions to avoid answering the questions or points we raise.

Yes, I'm afraid it's the way. I've never come across anyone yet who claims the Name of Jesus that can give me scripture reference to His approval of abortion on demand.
It gets twisted every which way but loose....and yet, no where does Jesus say we are given His permission to abort the children we concieve and no where does His Word say repentence isn't necessary to recieve His Kingdom.
I should :giveup:....but, God spurs me on.

historyb
Aug 24th 2008, 10:52 PM
It seems to me the question is can a person in all truthfulness call themselves a Christian and still whole heartedly support baby murder. To me the answer is no.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:52 PM
Look to my post that lists the things we have to do to be given salvation....no where does it say that we have to be held under different laws...... Faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was risen 3 days later guarentess our salvation. Christ said the ONLY sin that we can commit that He cannot forgive is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

I've never said otherwise. Try sticking to the actual topic of approving of abortion on demand and still being a Christian.


I hate to tell you but that is what the Word of God says....its right there in black and white and red.......

And regardless of what Paul says about this or that Im going to take the words in red (Jesus' words) over ANYONE else's.

According to Paul women are not supposed to hold a position of authority over men but yet look at Joyce Meyer and Paula White......

You may want to pick and choose which Scripture you'll believe, I'll take the whole counsel of God, thank you.
And what Joyce Meyer and Paula White have to do with this is beyond me...you have straw man arguments down pat. :)

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 10:54 PM
It seems to me the question is can a person in all truthfulness call themselves a Christian and still whole heartedly support baby murder. To me the answer is no.

Oh, you can't possibly make it that simple, can you?
Surely there are hurdles to jump, words to twist, hoops to jump thru before you come to that conclusion??? ;)

flybaby
Aug 24th 2008, 10:59 PM
Another good question for everyone to ask is this: who makes babies?

Does a man and woman coming together make a baby or does God make a baby?

If God makes a baby (which I wholeheartedly believe He does), then abortion is not only a crime against the unborn, it is also a crime against a Holy Almighty God.

Those who are pro-choice, would you please be so kind as to let me know who you think makes babies?

redeemedbyhim
Aug 24th 2008, 11:04 PM
Another good question for everyone to ask is this: who makes babies?

Does a man and woman coming together make a baby or does God make a baby?

If God makes a baby (which I wholeheartedly believe He does), then abortion is not only a crime against the unborn, it is also a crime against a Holy Almighty God.

Those who are pro-choice, would you please be so kind as to let me know who you think makes babies?

Excellent question! Thanks for posting it, I look forward to any answers!

IMINXTC
Aug 24th 2008, 11:13 PM
I had participated in this type of debate over 30 years ago while Roe v Wade was raging. The same issues, the same questions. The same fury.

Top of the list: When does life begin? From a Bible-standpoint that becomes an absurdity. Jer.1:5

Back then the question arose: When does the fetus become HUMAN?

Another absurdity which still flies: Choice. Since when it is about a woman's body alone, and since when does this choice involve only her,
and since when has any human been given anything resembling a choice to destroy the "human life" in her womb? Ex. 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 11:14 PM
You need to be the one giving scripture references to believe that we can be pro-choice (abortion) and inherit the Kingdom, as you seem to believe is possible.
But, the word does say,

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

If those things remain without repentence, how then can we say we are Christ like?

Of course I don't think it's ok to be pro-murder of anyone, I must have worded that wrong.

Matthew 15:18 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile the man.


Those things defile people, but do not cause them to lose their salvation.

Toymom
Aug 24th 2008, 11:30 PM
Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

If those things remain without repentence, how then can we say we are Christ like?

Who is to say when that repentance may come?
And, if one does not repent for a sinful thought does one lose one's salvation?

And, our goal is not to be Christ-like.

Our goal is to allow Christ to transform us into His image and let Him live through us so that it is no longer I, but Christ who lives in me.

I have been looking up the issue and found this:


For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Christ, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14). A woman who has had an abortion, or a man who has encouraged an abortion, or even a doctor who has performed one – all can be forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.
For those who have had an abortion – the sin of abortion is no less forgivable than any other sin. Through faith in Christ, any and all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16; Romans 8:1; Colossians 1:14). A woman who has had an abortion, or a man who has encouraged an abortion, or even a doctor who has performed one – all can be forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.
http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 12:13 AM
Toymom,

Are you going out of your way to miss the point I made or accidentally ignoring the multiple posts I've made clarifying it?

Let me get this straight once more: I am a Calvinist and wrote the OP - I hardly believe one can lose one's salvation.

What I am advocating is the concept of sanctification - if sanctification is not occurring then the person is either in backslidden rebellion or simply is deceived in one's salvation.

A core component of the Reformed view of harmatology is that all sin begins within the mind/spirit and manifests itself in our actions. Just as Christ stated - hatred and lust are just as much as sins as murder and fornication. All sin begins within our thought process.

With this in mind we see why this is such an important issue - to support someone's right to murder someone else, free of consequence, is a sin of the mind. For one that supports such a thing I would argue that the person is a new Christian, is backslidden in thought, or does not have the Holy Spirit working within (not saved to begin with).

How is this any different from someone who thinks it's okay to kill the elderly or those burdensome to society?

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 12:41 AM
Toymom,

Are you going out of your way to miss the point I made or accidentally ignoring the multiple posts I've made clarifying it?

Let me get this straight once more: I am a Calvinist and wrote the OP - I hardly believe one can lose one's salvation.

What I am advocating is the concept of sanctification - if sanctification is not occurring then the person is either in backslidden rebellion or simply is deceived in one's salvation.

A core component of the Reformed view of harmatology is that all sin begins within the mind/spirit and manifests itself in our actions. Just as Christ stated - hatred and lust are just as much as sins as murder and fornication. All sin begins within our thought process.

With this in mind we see why this is such an important issue - to support someone's right to murder someone else, free of consequence, is a sin of the mind. For one that supports such a thing I would argue that the person is a new Christian, is backslidden in thought, or does not have the Holy Spirit working within (not saved to begin with).

How is this any different from someone who thinks it's okay to kill the elderly or those burdensome to society?
I saw that you had posted earlier that you believe that one cannot lose one's salvation.

My response was to redeemedbyhim.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:45 AM
No. I don't think He gave us that choice.


I don't either. Why then do you believe he gives the choice for abortion? What's the difference between killing a 2 year old and killing a baby that is 4 months from being born?

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:48 AM
Here's the problem with what the pro-choice crowd is saying. They're saying it's a choice between a woman and God what she does. Fine, if we accept that though then we must advocate that a man who rapes and kills his own daughter shouldn't be held legally accountable because he has made a choice between him and his God. After all, we haven't put ourselves in his position.

Not a single one of them can respond to this (or have they even attempted).

This is such a salient point that it needed to be copied and made again. So for your reading pleasure, here it is...

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:52 AM
I hate to put it in to this context but it is just the same as the man who is driving home and gets killed by a drunk driver........ it wasnt his fault that he died but God called him home at that point for His reason. Do we know why? No.....

So what is the difference in the two?

The difference is that the man that kills his two year old daughter will face judgment. Now if he is a believer and has repented then he joins us in heaven....if not....well then he goes to hell.

Actually, the two are quite different. One is an accident though quite avoidable. The other (abortion) is premeditated.

So, if the mother that has the abortion doesn't repent, are you saying she will go to hell?

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:52 AM
I never said anything about continuously enabling anything.
I merely said that someone who holds pro-choice views can still be a Christian.
The op states that someone who holds pro-choice views cannot be a Christian.
Merely holding pro-choice views does not mean that a person is performing or having abortions or even voting for pro-choice candidates.


Being pro-choice enables abortions.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 12:56 AM
I don't either. Why then do you believe he gives the choice for abortion? What's the difference between killing a 2 year old and killing a baby that is 4 months from being born?

If one doesn't believe in The Almighty, and accepts evolution - there can be a LOT of difference.

THAT'S the key in the abortion delema - get them to a relationship with Messiah so they don't desire an abortion.

The HEART is the issue and target.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:57 AM
Can you show me in scriptures where it says that one's thoughts and views affect one's salvation? Please, Scripture references.

Sure.

David killed Uriah in a perfectly legal way. Nothing he did concerning killing Uriah was against the law. Yet, God held him accountable for murder.

Matt 25:40-46
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASB

or...

Matt 7:23-27
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock. 25 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. 26 "And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. 27 "And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and it fell, and great was its fall."
NASB

Not only should we hear what God says, but we must obey what he says.


And, do you think it is ok to be pro-murder of people who are not innocent then?

Are you speaking about the death penalty? If so, let's start another thread on that.

flybaby
Aug 25th 2008, 12:57 AM
Maybe the title of this thread ought to be "Why a Christian Shouldn't be Pro-Choice". Obviously, a Christian has the ability to be pro-choice. I think the semantics on this have caused most of the derision in this thread.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 12:58 AM
Look to my post that lists the things we have to do to be given salvation....no where does it say that we have to be held under different laws...... Faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was risen 3 days later guarentess our salvation. Christ said the ONLY sin that we can commit that He cannot forgive is blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

Let's not live out the very real and important requirement of repentance. God will save a man who has murdered if that man repents. He will not save the unrepentant murderer.

kayte
Aug 25th 2008, 01:11 AM
I have stated many times that I am not in favor of abortion but I am of the pro-CHOICE belief.

I want to see the LAWS changed (and Im not talking about the abortion laws----yet). I want to see the adoption system in the country overhauled to where average American families can afford to adopt an unwanted child.
I've seen this brought up several times throughout this and other threads and just want to address it. The truth is that the average American family can afford to adopt. My daughter and son in law are an 'average American family'. He works hard, makes a good wage and supports their family of 6... they have four little boys. They are in the process of adopting a baby girl. (One of two they're hoping to add to their family.) The total cost is $15 - $17,000. (Payed over time.) They are paying this themselves, but if they could not, there are multiple assistant programs that are in place to help with the finances.

Fifteen to seventeen thousand is a lot of money, but it's no more than giving birth with complications. (One of my grandsons births cost $16,000.)

Would the amount burden a lot of families and cause them to make some sacrifices in order to adopt? Sure. But it's worth it. And it certainly isn't anywhere near the $200,000 I saw posted as an average cost.


I want to see systems put in place that assist single (teenage and otherwise) mothers and couples that are not ready/able to care for a child be able to actually do that....take care and raise the child....The adoption agency that my daughter is working with is not just an adoption agency. They have apartments scattered throughout the city that are furnished and ready for any mother in need. She is welcome to stay there for as long as needed to get on her feet. (This is for women/girls that give their babies up for adoption or chose to keep them.) When she is ready to move herself and baby into their own home, she is welcome to take many of the items that are in the apartment... just to give her another little head start on home making. All of this is supported by 'the church'... individuals that love God and care... about both the mother and the unborn.


But most of all I want the Church (for once) to quit being the bunch of judgmental hypocritcal people that we are........ I want to see us get off our butts and start helping these people who get into a situation where abortion becomes the best solution. I want the church to stand up and take these people in and love and help them in any way we need to so that the people in this situation will say "There are people who care and are willing to help" But instead we call these people murderers and beat them down until they feel as if they have commited unforgivable sins...... Abortion is never the best solution and there are far more people that aren't sitting on their butts than you seem to think there are. The problem isn't lack of interest, care or love. I have never heard of a mom in trouble being turned away by any of the CPC's. They are there. They do whatever it takes to help. The problem is, so many would rather take what they perceive as the 'easy way out'. They don't want help to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. They want it gone. And that's the hard, cold fact. And they certainly don't want anyone telling them that it's wrong.

I can totally understand that... but to keep our mouths shut and give them a hug, telling them that we support their choice, is a false and filthy love that doesn't care anything about the future state of the mothers heart/mind or soul. The after affects are enormous and we need to love them with a true love like Jesus does. He always told them the truth about sin and the cost. Because He loves! He never, ever leaves someone in their sinful state when they come near Him.

On a more personal note, if anyone were in need of a place to stay through a pregnancy (and after), I can not imagine any believer that I know that would turn her away. Every one of them would open their own home. I don't know your experiences and what Christians you've been around... but I don't believe yours are the common experience of most Christians.

One more point... abortion is murder. There's no getting around that. The supreme court ruling it legal doesn't change the fact that a life is interrupted in a very violent manner and brought to an end. We are obligated before God to call sin, sin. To agree with Him and love others enough to try and persuade them to seek Him and obey Him.


Does anyone else see this as a problem? Or does the problem still only lie with those of us who are pro-choice?
When God says "Thou shalt not...", He effectively wipes out our 'right to choose' or support someone else's right to choose.




I realize that killing a child -- born or unborn-- is wrong...... but until we make it so that other options (true counseling -- not what we have today--, training, living assistance, homes where single mothers can live and raise their child with out being condemned for being a single mother....whatever anyone else can possibly conceive) these people will continue to have abortions.
As I said above, those things are in place, yet they stay away from that help and kill their children instead.


Dont you see?? These women (and there are Christian women who get abortions as well) find themselves in a situation where it is totally lose-lose fro them...... They can have the baby and most likely have to raise it themselves and then face the judgemental people (in the church as well) who will talk behind their backs and will completly treat them differently because of a mistake made. Or they can have an abortion and never have to worry about that but yet end a human life.....now put yourself in their shoes and honestly tell me what you would do....or better yet if you have a daughter.....what would you do if you KNEW that you and she would be
completely ostrecized because she became pregnant. And dont you DARE tell me that the church does not do that........
Some churches probably do that. I'd most likely be rude and tag them as dead churches. :D

A local church in my community is just now going through the ordeal of having three pregnant teens... girls that were raised in the church. Have they been ostracized? Nope. They've been surrounded, supported and forgiven and cheered on for keeping their babies. One has been on a continuous pray request list because she went into labor prematurely. Her precious baby lived two weeks. She and her church family were heartbroken.


Go back and look at ALL my posts and show me one that shows me saying Im FOR abortion......show me one...... I have said (and I guess I have to say it yet again) I am against abortion BUT what a person does is between HER and GOD and seeing as I am neither of them I have no right telling her what is wrong or right...... she must work that out with the Creator just the same as I have to work out the sins I commit...... Can I put it any more clearly....or are you going to tell me what my beliefs are yet again and claim that since I am pro-choice therefore I must be pro abortion? I do get that you are not for abortion and that you would do what you could to prevent an abortion if you felt it was possible. To a point. You would also not 'inflict' your 'opinion' on a woman that was planning to abort. You love her (to the best of your ability) and let her know that you're not judgmental about her choice... like all those other nasty, mean Christians... :hug:

The deal breaker here is that I would say (humbly) that I love her more than you do. I know the pain of sin and what it cost our Lord... and would want more than anything to help her avoid that pain. Under that reason alone, I would LOVE to see that choice taken away as a legal option. To spare her/them the far greater pain that will wreak havoc in her life than carrying the baby to term and either keeping him/her or giving him/her up for adoption, will do.



We are SUPPOSED to be accepting of everyone and love them the way we wish to be loved.....but how many times have you seen someone who lives on the streets walk in the church in need of some love and assistance and then be shunned by God's children????? Ive seen it so many times it makes me sick and almos t ashamed to be associated with te Church...... (notice I said the church as it is run by man.....not God) Ive taken in a young girl that decided to have her baby (she was only 16 when she gave birth) because everyone else abandoned her (her real and church families) because she had become a "disgrace"
Um... actually I've attended church where half the congregation were those that lived on the streets. They were met with friendly conversation and many of the physical needs were met, as well as warm Christian fellowship.

Hate to tell ya, but you aren't merely 'associated' with the church... you as a follower of Christ are the church. So, good for you for taking in the young lady in need. You did what the church does... nothing more, nothing less.


So dont you dare wave your righteous flag around me lady..... Its time for Christians to wake up and start doing what we are supposed to..... get off our lazy butts and actually roll up our sleeves and get some work done...... Dont you see? Or is it all you care about that we get a law changed? The day you take in a teenager that decides to keep her baby and you help raise her and the child (who is now 3 by the way) is the day you will earn ANY right to talk to me about how righteous you are....... Im sick of the self righteous attitude of some Christians.......
I can't wait to roll up my sleeves (again) and hold my new grand daughter and help raise her in the love and admonition of the Lord.

Your view of 'the church' is so dark and bitter... I feel sad for you. I share what I have in the hopes that you might realize it isn't as dismal as you paint it. There's a ton going on that you apparently aren't privy to wherever you live. Praise God!





Ask the girl that lived with me...... ask the people who all they want is a hand up from the church but yet are turned away because they smell or their clothes are tattered. Why dont you go find the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew and tell me that you dont agree with it????? It makes my heart break to think of how elitest the church has become..... We have forgetten that Christ took care of the sl*ts, and the prostitutes and the thieves, liars, the poor and the downright scoundrals of the earth....do you walk with those people on a daily basis? Or do you worry about who has your seat in church? Do you pull the homeless man that walks into church looking for help up to the front of the sanctuary and do WHATEEVER you can to help get him on his feet or do you just walk by him on your way out and maybe give him a dollar or two?
Love that song! Amazing to realize that Jesus loved them, touched them and took them out of their lifestyles of being sluts, thieves and liars. Me included!





Again..... I AM NOT PRO ABORTION..... I AM OF THE BELIEF THAT CHOICES YOU MAKE ARE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR MAKER.....NOT ME.

How many more times do you wish for me to say it?

Now Im sorry for the tone of this post...... but the Jesus I serve loved all people not just the ones who screamed their beliefs the loudest.

I love all of you as you are all my brothers and sisters..... but it is time we woke up and realized that there are a LOT of people that need help......
There was a story on the news not long ago about a man that beat his little two year old son to death while bystanders watched. No one stepped forward. No one tried to rescue the child. They just watched. Sad, I'm sure. Shocked, maybe. But they just stood there and let the child die. The father will indeed stand before God about this choice he made (either here on earth or face to face at the judgment.) I also believe that those that stood and did nothing will stand before God for the choice they made that day.

This is no different.

Wow... very sorry about the excessively long post! Reps for anyone that read it all. :lol:

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 01:47 AM
Sure.
David killed Uriah in a perfectly legal way. Nothing he did concerning killing Uriah was against the law. Yet, God held him accountable for murder.

Actually, I did think about David. He was a man after God's heart. And despite his great sin, which he was punished for, he still was an ancestor of Christ. So, if salvation was an issue, he did not or would not have lost it, rather, he suffered consequences of his sin - his baby died and another son of his, Absalom, rose up against him and David was not able to build the house of God, rather that went to his son Solomon to do. But, he still was an ancestor of Christ.
Being held accountable for our sins is not the same as losing our salvation because of them.

Maybe the title of this thread ought to be "Why a Christian Shouldn't be Pro-Choice". Obviously, a Christian has the ability to be pro-choice. I think the semantics on this have caused most of the derision in this thread.
I agree. My issue is with those who claim that one who is pro-choice cannot be a Christian. That is not the case. We are all sinners.
However, if it was titled why a Christian should not be pro-choice I would not have a problem with it.

Let's not live out the very real and important requirement of repentance. God will save a man who has murdered if that man repents. He will not save the unrepentant murderer.
What if someone is already saved and then commits a murder and then is shot to death before having time to repent?
Did they lose their salvation?

I agree that we should repent. However, I don't think that we can judge other's situations and hearts and if they are saved or not. Only the Lord can do that.

moonglow
Aug 25th 2008, 02:52 AM
There was a story on the news not long ago about a man that beat his little two year old son to death while bystanders watched. No one stepped forward. No one tried to rescue the child. They just watched. Sad, I'm sure. Shocked, maybe. But they just stood there and let the child die. The father will indeed stand before God about this choice he made (either here on earth or face to face at the judgment.) I also believe that those that stood and did nothing will stand before God for the choice they made that day.

This is no different.



Just popped in here and was looking through posts and saw this last part of what you wrote it. I wanted to correct this as I heard it on the news too. Yes people did try to stop him....even the police tried to stop him and couldn't..they finally had to shoot him:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25179632/

Police: Officer kills man who beat child to death
Witnesses say man was punching, kicking, stomping and throwing the tot

TURLOCK, Calif. - Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.(read the rest at the link). I just hate to seeing people getting the wrong facts on a news story...unless of course this is a totally different story you are referring too)

God bless

moonglow
Aug 25th 2008, 03:14 AM
Well this is weird...I found another news article saying people did freeze up too scared to do anything: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/18/BA2G11ARO9.DTL
Inaction in boy's killing called justified
This one was in the San Francisco Chronicle dated three days later with interviews by witnesses. It wasn't that these people didn't care, but they were in a state of shock and didn't know if this man had any weapons on him or not. This horrible scene of violences happening in front of them and they just froze up. Strange though two different news stories about it. :hmm:

Sorry I got off topic on here.

God bless

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 03:41 AM
Well this is weird...I found another news article saying people did freeze up too scared to do anything: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/18/BA2G11ARO9.DTL
Inaction in boy's killing called justified
This one was in the San Francisco Chronicle dated three days later with interviews by witnesses. It wasn't that these people didn't care, but they were in a state of shock and didn't know if this man had any weapons on him or not. This horrible scene of violences happening in front of them and they just froze up. Strange though two different news stories about it. :hmm:

Sorry I got off topic on here.

God bless

No it's NOT off topic, but very much on - it shows peoples actions, reactions and choices aren't as simple as we would like to believe.

We can't get into the mind and reasoning of a women/girl going for an abortion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahweh gave me a vision once after hearing a pastor in Denver brag about being arrested at a protest outside an abortion clinic on the radio.

A teenager had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend (whom proceeded to dump her upon learning she was pregnant), confused, afraid, not knowing what to do - she went for an abortion.

When she arrived she saw christians outside protesting, holding up signs like "baby killers", "abortion is murder".

Crying, alone, scared, confused - not seeing any other options - see goes in for an abortion. :confused :cry: :help:

Thru time the guilt weighs on her, Yahweh is calling out to her - convicting her of her sin.

She, in desperation, goes to a church one Sunday....

As she walks in, and looks down the pews, she sees the pastor....

recognizes him from being outside the abortion clinic protesting :eek:

WHAT WILL SHE DO?

Yahweh changed my understanding that day - who will He judge harder: the "pastor" or the lost lonely girl?

Whom will YOU judge harder?

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 04:10 AM
People are going to judge ones salvation on a POLITICAL stance?????

You can say I'm a very angry person, or that the last part was completely uncalled for all you want - but you are not in a position to judges ones salvation because of their political stance and who they vote for.

When some claims to be a christian, and then proceeds to judge my salvation based on a political issue like this - YES it gets me angry.

historyb
Aug 25th 2008, 04:12 AM
Being for life is more than just a mere political stance

IMINXTC
Aug 25th 2008, 04:15 AM
No it's NOT off topic, but very much on - it shows peoples actions, reactions and choices aren't as simple as we would like to believe.

We can't get into the mind and reasoning of a women/girl going for an abortion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahweh gave me a vision once after hearing a pastor in Denver brag about being arrested at a protest outside an abortion clinic on the radio.

A teenager had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend (whom proceeded to dump her upon learning she was pregnant), confused, afraid, not knowing what to do - she went for an abortion.

When she arrived she saw christians outside protesting, holding up signs like "baby killers", "abortion is murder".

Crying, alone, scared, confused - not seeing any other options - see goes in for an abortion. :confused :cry: :help:

Thru time the guilt weighs on her, Yahweh is calling out to her - convicting her of her sin.

She, in desperation, goes to a church one Sunday....

As she walks in, and looks down the pews, she sees the pastor....

recognizes him from being outside the abortion clinic protesting :eek:

WHAT WILL SHE DO?

Yahweh changed my understanding that day - who will He judge harder: the "pastor" or the lost lonely girl?

Whom will YOU judge harder?



It was only a matter of time before this very important point was raised.
And I think we all (or hope we all) agree that this thread is not meant to condemn one who has received an abortion. I had helped a woman rest in the Lord once upon a time, and where it concerned her multiple abortions, I had never seen or heard someone cry so hard and for so long in her appreciation of our Lord's forgiveness. Who knows what circumstanses led her to make those choices?

So I appreciate Eaglenester's post on this issue.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 04:22 AM
Being for life is more than just a mere political stance

Yes it IS - it's not a simple issue.
So why is much of christendom seeking a political solution.

It's all a matter of the heart.

historyb
Aug 25th 2008, 04:27 AM
no it's not - either you like to murder babies or your prolife really it's that simple

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 04:40 AM
no it's not - either you like to murder babies or your prolife really it's that simple

Maybe to you.

Messiah was motivated by compassion.

Are you without sin?

Will you cast the first stone at the girl I mentioned?

I WON'T

Messiah's "woe to yous" were towards the religious leaders, NOT towards the hurting and confused sinners.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 04:47 AM
People are going to judge ones salvation on a POLITICAL stance?????

You can say I'm a very angry person, or that the last part was completely uncalled for all you want - but you are not in a position to judges ones salvation because of their political stance and who they vote for.

When some claims to be a christian, and then proceeds to judge my salvation based on a political issue like this - YES it gets me angry.

It's an ideology that manifests itself in different forms. Sometime this form if political. Overall, however, it transcends politics.

The point is if one is pro-choice it is beyond political - it is supporting an ideology that:

1) Defines the baby in the womb as non-human

2) Places the mother's right to choose over the baby's right to live

That is not an ideology a mature and sanctified Christian can support. It is the equivalent of a Christian supporting a mother's right to murder her own children by drowning them in a bathtub, or support a Klansmen's choice to lynch black people due to their color. There are certain ideologies that Christians simply cannot partake in with - at the very least - causing severe damage to their relationship with God.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 04:48 AM
Maybe to you.

Messiah was motivated by compassion.

Are you without sin?

Will you cast the first stone at the girl I mentioned?

I WON'T

Messiah's "woe to yous" were towards the religious leaders, NOT towards the hurting and confused sinners.


And yet, here you are casting stones at us (and in other threads at McCain and other people in the public eye). So it's okay for you to cast stones, but if we do it's wrong?

At least be consistent in your rage my friend.

Ashley274
Aug 25th 2008, 04:51 AM
VHayes I do not feel you nor JesusPhrek are anomalies nor freaks....not at all..I am NOT pro-choice but I agree on many of your points ...I have posted way back somewhere that I feel we need to change laws too.....so regular people can adopt a child...I would take a baby in and I am kinda poor...but I have a roof (lol though it leaks ) over my head and always have food...I could feed and love this kid or a kid and mom...but people like me don't get a shot at helping like this.
I see your point on the church too...I know many will not help the homeless (not all of course) and I belong to a rather rich church a LOT of doctors and such....but nobody has even bothered to offer me a hand...MINUS a nice eye doc that did an exam once free and didn't charge me...I didn't ask he just knew me I think from church or knew I didn't have vision coverage. I wear reading glasses. I do not understand how people can freeze to death in the winter (literally) when our heated churches could be opened to these people and members could take turns making sure no problems came up.......WE do have a free clinic in town so women and girls who are going to have a baby can go there if they do not count mom and dad's income. I see everyone's points in here...I miss the mark all the time I am not perfect at all...I think though for me, I would like abortion totally outlawed and help given to the people who feel they need to do that

ALL PEACE :hug:




Thank you, Brother Mark – you have just said something in a manner that “let the penny drop” so to speak.

You said:



But that ISN’T what I am saying. I’ll try to explain a bit more clearly what I HAVE been saying (or at least I thought I had).


Abortion (right or wrong) is legal.
Most women who have abortions are unbelievers.
According to their beliefs/social mores/conscience or lack thereof, they are not doing anything wrong.

Each and every child matters; the born as well as the unborn.

What most unbelievers see is condemnation of the women who have an abortion. They seldom if ever see people who adopt, foster or just assist in the training and upbringing of a child who is unwanted. I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying because Christians are so wrapped up in abortion they forget to talk about the love for the toddlers and teens.

To many unbelievers (at least the ones I know) the “face” of Christianity is condemnation and judgement. They see absolutely no love and very little joy – instead they see frowns, scowls and finger wagging. They see Christians as trying to impose their viewpoints and morals on everyone. And they want no part of it. To these folks, I am an anomaly, a freak.

I’m not talking about sloppy agape, I’m talking about biblical love in action.

I appreciate the conversation and I’ve truly enjoyed my time here. It’s now time for me to go – it seems I am an anomaly and a freak here as well.

With respect and affection -
V

historyb
Aug 25th 2008, 04:59 AM
Maybe to you.

Messiah was motivated by compassion.

Are you without sin?

Will you cast the first stone at the girl I mentioned?

I WON'T

Messiah's "woe to yous" were towards the religious leaders, NOT towards the hurting and confused sinners.

And your making a huge strawman one that is always made when someone wants to be pro-murder, try to change the subject matter. The OP is about if a Christian can be a Christian and pro-murder of babies not about the women who participated in the sin.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 05:03 AM
And yet, here you are casting stones at us (and in other threads at McCain and other people in the public eye). So it's okay for you to cast stones, but if we do it's wrong?

At least be consistent in your rage my friend.

I'm not "casting stones" in my "rage"
casting stones implies judgment - which is what this thread is about.
Passing judgment on those that disagree politically with a certain stance.

I pray those so judgmental on those getting an abortion get more mercy than they are willing to extend.

Expecting mercy for self while demanding justice towards others is a baaad place to be.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:08 AM
Eagle,

Do you feel it necessary to just jump in to every single topic with your guns blazing? Look at what you're saying in this topic and compare it to the OP. Who here has advocated that we go to these mothers and call them murderers? In fact, Brother Mark came out and even said that we shouldn't do that in person, but since we're discussing it here and not in 'public' (per se) we're simply using the proper terminology.

Secondly, it is murder. Taking a life isn't a political matter (this argument of yours has been readily handled and you have yet to respond) - it's a moral matter. The Bible calls upon us to judge such things as right or wrong.

Are you saying that we should do away with a judicial system or that judging murderers is wrong? Is BTK a murderer or a misunderstood man?

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 05:08 AM
And your making a huge strawman one that is always made when someone wants to be pro-murder, try to change the subject matter. The OP is about if a Christian can be a Christian and pro-murder of babies not about the women who participated in the sin.

I'm NOT pro-murder.

I just have a different perspective.

I'm not forcing my views on a lost person.

And if you "judge" my salvation on this?

Well, the SAME judgment befall YOU

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:10 AM
I'm NOT pro-murder.

I just have a different perspective.

I'm not forcing my views on a lost person.

And if you "judge" my salvation on this?

Well, the SAME judgment befall YOU

Then why have laws? Do you have as much indignation when a law is passed banning child rape or increasing the severity of punishment for murderers? Why have any laws as all since all laws are society 'forcing its beliefs' on people?

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 05:22 AM
Eagle,

Do you feel it necessary to just jump in to every single topic with your guns blazing? Look at what you're saying in this topic and compare it to the OP. Who here has advocated that we go to these mothers and call them murderers? In fact, Brother Mark came out and even said that we shouldn't do that in person, but since we're discussing it here and not in 'public' (per se) we're simply using the proper terminology.

Secondly, it is murder. Taking a life isn't a political matter (this argument of yours has been readily handled and you have yet to respond) - it's a moral matter. The Bible calls upon us to judge such things as right or wrong.

Are you saying that we should do away with a judicial system or that judging murderers is wrong? Is BTK a murderer or a misunderstood man?

Well I guess by your words I should keep my mouth shut

Do you feel it necessary to just jump in to every single topic with your guns blazing?
Aren't you exaggerating a wee bit in this claim? Bearing false witness against me?

The judicial system doesn't call it murder.
Have I advocated doing away with the judical system (which calls it LEGAL and we are to OBEY it)

I'm NOT pro-abortion in any means
But you couldn't know my heart on this - or could you.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 05:24 AM
Then why have laws? Do you have as much indignation when a law is passed banning child rape or increasing the severity of punishment for murderers? Why have any laws as all since all laws are society 'forcing its beliefs' on people?

YOU have the indignation towards the law.

Abortion is LEGAL - abide by it.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:26 AM
Well I guess by your words I should keep my mouth shut

Can you answer the questions presented?


The judicial system doesn't call it murder.
Have I advocated doing away with the judical system (which calls it LEGAL and we are to OBEY it)


God does however. In other words it is an injustice of the justice department to allow the action. Therefore, as a Christian supporting God's Law we are to argue for the judicial department to reverse its course on this issue. At the very least we shouldn't support an unjust law.

By your own explanation and thought process we can look at slavery, segregation, and genocidal acts on Native Americans as things that are fine, justified, not murder (the government decreed killing Native Americans wasn't murder), and that we are to support it.


What are we at...14 or 15 pages....and not a single person has taken a stab at the OP.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:27 AM
YOU have the indignation towards the law.

Abortion is LEGAL - abide by it.


So Nazi soldiers told to kill a Jew on the spot were supposed to do it since it was legal?


I love how these standards become quite double as this thread goes on.

Also, by saying "obey it" are you saying we shouldn't challenge it? What kind of logic is that?

IMINXTC
Aug 25th 2008, 05:29 AM
I don't want to stray, only to candidly clarify: As a Bible-believer I would not, could not, in any way condone or justify abortion. If a young woman seeking help comes to me or my peers, she will be pointed towads God's Word, and hopefully won to Christ. She will be shown all the alternatives to abortion, with full understanding of the difficulty she faces.

Sometimes a young woman faces unbelievable circumstances where it concerns her un-wanted pregnancy and sometimes she needs to be protected from violence.

In my community, a women may surrender her child-no questions asked. The child becomes a ward of the city and adoption processes begin. This is to protect the child from abandonment, and the mother from violence.
These are the realities of our modern culture.

However, the question: can a Bible-believer hold to a pro-choice position?
Leaving the queston of one's salvation out of the mix for now.. the answer must remain no.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:33 AM
I don't want to stray, only to candidly clarify: As a Bible-believer I would not, could not, in any way condone or justify abortion. If a young woman seeking help comes to me or my peers, she will be pointed towads God's Word, and hopefully won to Christ. She will be shown all the alternatives to abortion, with full understanding of the difficulty she faces.

Sometimes a young woman faces unbelievable circumstances where it concerns her un-wanted pregnancy and sometimes she needs to be protected from violence.

In my community, a women may surrender her child-no questions asked. The child becomes a ward of the city and adoption processes begin. This is to protect the child from abandonment, and the mother from violence.
These are the realities of our modern culture.

However, the question: can a Bible-believer hold to a pro-choice position?
Leaving the queston of one's salvation out of the mix for now.. the answer must remain no.


The last part of what you say is really what the OP was getting at. This leads me to believe that most people read the title and responded without reading a single word out of the OP.

As I have argued throughout this thread it is possible for backslidden (in thought) or young Christians to believe in a pro-Choice view. Someone that claims Christ and is pro-choice is either young in the faith, backslidden or thought, or simply not saved. That is what I have been arguing throughout this thread.

Ashley274
Aug 25th 2008, 05:49 AM
AK When I first saw the sunject line I figured it was chosen to get people to view it and respond...It may have backfired a bit because many people do not read very long posts. I wonder if the replies would have been more moderate had you worded the subject line differently

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:59 AM
AK When I first saw the sunject line I figured it was chosen to get people to view it and respond...It may have backfired a bit because many people do not read very long posts. I wonder if the replies would have been more moderate had you worded the subject line differently

Probably would have, but what's done is done. ;)

People have certainly had time to go back and read the OP and have also been referred back to it multiple times.

Maybe I'm different, but my theory is if I don't have time to read what someone has written then I don't have time to respond. Generally keeps me out of trouble.

Vhayes
Aug 25th 2008, 06:13 AM
The last part of what you say is really what the OP was getting at. This leads me to believe that most people read the title and responded without reading a single word out of the OP.

As I have argued throughout this thread it is possible for backslidden (in thought) or young Christians to believe in a pro-Choice view. Someone that claims Christ and is pro-choice is either young in the faith, backslidden or thought, or simply not saved. That is what I have been arguing throughout this thread.
Thank you. So, given my choices, if I must act like the “Christians” in this thread – I’ll go with, “Simply not saved”. But I really did think it was about Christ in me, the hope of glory – guess I have that part wrong too. Oh well.

And it IS rather disingenuous of you to say that no one responded to your questions. Did we or did we not have a discussion on hierarchal sin? Just because I disagreed with you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And I did respond to your “Let’s support a mans choice to rape his daughter” waaaayyyyyy back in about post 37 or 38. Just because I disagreed with you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

You seem to want to call anyone who disagrees with you on the carpet, as though you are in charge and the rest of us should sit at your feet and absorb your wisdom. Fine, but what about those you feel are supporting you? Do they get called on the carpet if they say something offensive or rude? There is a post where someone did call another a baby murderer.

either you like to murder babies or your prolife really it's that simple
Why is there no outrage at that?

That was posted in this very thread and people still question that abortion clinic protesters call women murderers. How naive are y’all?

Thanks, AK, but it really is time for me to shake the dust off my feet – I ain’t drinkin’ your particular flavor of Kool-Aide.

Ashley274
Aug 25th 2008, 06:18 AM
True it is best to read the whole post. I can only speak for me . I am part of your audience :lol: and I did read the whole thread but I cannot seem to retain long threads and all the fine points..,I know many can....but some of us can't for whatever reason ....which was why at some point I posted they were saved and you said you thought you covered that..no doubt you did but with so much to mentally hold on to ...things get lost...I think my point is I bet most of us agree more than disagree :hug:

IMINXTC
Aug 25th 2008, 07:41 AM
I also carefully read the OP and understood the fairness and the biblical basis for the title. And I am in full agreement. (like that's gonna shut me up).

Firefighter
Aug 25th 2008, 11:56 AM
I TRULY wish the OP would list all of the requirements for salvation and correct doctrinal beliefs that one must have to make it to heaven. I can't wait to see his list, it will get ripped to shreds...

JesusPhreak27
Aug 25th 2008, 12:04 PM
I TRULY wish the OP would list all of the requirements for salvation and correct doctrinal beliefs that one must have to make it to heaven. I can't wait to see his list, it will get ripped to shreds...


Waaaaayyyyyyy back Ilisted what I believe to be the only requirements to get into heaven.

1. Belief in Jesus's earthly ministry
2. Belief that Jesus was persecuted for said ministry
3. Belief that Jesus died on the Cross at Calvary for our sins
4. Belief that Jesus rose three days later....defeating death for good.

Now according to some of these people we have to be pro-life to recieve salvation.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 12:31 PM
Now according to some of these people we have to be pro-life to recieve salvation.

More than that - you have to force that conviction on others.

For myself - I'm prolife (beyond just abortion), but I'm not going to make others live by my beliefs.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:12 PM
More than that - you have to force that conviction on others.

For myself - I'm prolife (beyond just abortion), but I'm not going to make others live by my beliefs.

So you will not force people to stop murdering 2 year olds? No sense in making government do that. Just preach against murder, rape, etc. and but let's not force any one to obey the law. ;)

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:14 PM
What if someone is already saved and then commits a murder and then is shot to death before having time to repent?
Did they lose their salvation?

I agree that we should repent. However, I don't think that we can judge other's situations and hearts and if they are saved or not. Only the Lord can do that.


Let's give an example that is more realistic to this thread. What if someone supports murder their entire life? They never repent of murder? They simply want to keep it "legal", etc? Is that repentance?

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 01:18 PM
As I have argued throughout this thread it is possible for backslidden (in thought) or young Christians to believe in a pro-Choice view. Someone that claims Christ and is pro-choice is either young in the faith, backslidden or thought, or simply not saved. That is what I have been arguing throughout this thread.
I still think that oversimplifies things and judges others.
There are many many views that Christians may not agree on.
And many of them can be supported on both sides of the issue from the Bible.
And that is ok because those things are not what makes one a Christian or not.
The Lord will sort us all out in His own time.
I would not say that those born again Christians who are pro-choice are young in the faith, or backslidden or not Christian, merely that they are in a different place in their walk with the Lord.


I am pro-Christ.
I think that what it takes to be a Christian is to be born again with Christ living in me.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:21 PM
YOU have the indignation towards the law.

Abortion is LEGAL - abide by it.

So were NAZI concentration camps.

Eaglenester
Aug 25th 2008, 01:22 PM
So you will not force people to stop murdering 2 year olds? No sense in making government do that. Just preach against murder, rape, etc. and but let's not force any one to obey the law. ;)

NO

Earlier in this topic I posted a response to you saying





I don't either. Why then do you believe he gives the choice for abortion? What's the difference between killing a 2 year old and killing a baby that is 4 months from being born?If one doesn't believe in The Almighty, and accepts evolution - there can be a LOT of difference.

THAT'S the key in the abortion delema - get them to a relationship with Messiah so they don't desire an abortion.

The HEART is the issue and target.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:23 PM
Yes it IS - it's not a simple issue.
So why is much of christendom seeking a political solution.

It's all a matter of the heart.

Romans 13 is a political solution that God put in scripture. Why? Because not all men will repent. Being anti-abortion isn't just about helping mothers and doctors repent. It's also about protecting babies that are being killed.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:25 PM
NO

Earlier in this topic I posted a response to you saying

If one doesn't believe in The Almighty, and accepts evolution - there can be a LOT of difference.

THAT'S the key in the abortion delema - get them to a relationship with Messiah so they don't desire an abortion.

The HEART is the issue and target.



That is wonderful when ministering to the one committing abortion. But it totally forgets about the baby. That's why law is necessary. Law can be a great teacher. Let us work to outlaw abortion politically and let us work for the salvation of the sinners too.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:26 PM
Waaaaayyyyyyy back Ilisted what I believe to be the only requirements to get into heaven.

1. Belief in Jesus's earthly ministry
2. Belief that Jesus was persecuted for said ministry
3. Belief that Jesus died on the Cross at Calvary for our sins
4. Belief that Jesus rose three days later....defeating death for good.

Now according to some of these people we have to be pro-life to recieve salvation.

Demons believe all these things. Let's not forget about the necessary repentance part.

Firefighter
Aug 25th 2008, 01:27 PM
So you will not force people to stop murdering 2 year olds? No sense in making government do that. Just preach against murder, rape, etc. and but let's not force any one to obey the law. ;)

By all means, show me one society in all of humanity that has forced people to stop murdering each other.

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:30 PM
By all means, show me one society in all of humanity that has forced people to stop murdering each other.

Almost every society has. It hasn't been completely capable, but it sure has been able to cut down on the murder rate. Without law, violence would fill the land as it did in Noah's day. The heart is desperately wicked. So society forces it's values, i.e. don't murder, on the individual.

You think law doesn't keep evil in check? Try putting enough people in a situation where they think they can get away with steeling and watch what happens. If mad enough, plenty of people would murder if they thought they could get away with it.

Firefighter
Aug 25th 2008, 01:42 PM
The law only assigns punishment for crimes. Hopefully the punishment is a strong enough deterrent. It in NO WAY forces anyone to comply, they still have a choice.

No society on this planet has ever forced people to quit committing murder.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 01:44 PM
I've seen this brought up several times throughout this and other threads and just want to address it. The truth is that the average American family can afford to adopt. My daughter and son in law are an 'average American family'. He works hard, makes a good wage and supports their family of 6... they have four little boys. They are in the process of adopting a baby girl. (One of two they're hoping to add to their family.) The total cost is $15 - $17,000. (Payed over time.) They are paying this themselves, but if they could not, there are multiple assistant programs that are in place to help with the finances.

Fifteen to seventeen thousand is a lot of money, but it's no more than giving birth with complications. (One of my grandsons births cost $16,000.)

Would the amount burden a lot of families and cause them to make some sacrifices in order to adopt? Sure. But it's worth it. And it certainly isn't anywhere near the $200,000 I saw posted as an average cost.

The adoption agency that my daughter is working with is not just an adoption agency. They have apartments scattered throughout the city that are furnished and ready for any mother in need. She is welcome to stay there for as long as needed to get on her feet. (This is for women/girls that give their babies up for adoption or chose to keep them.) When she is ready to move herself and baby into their own home, she is welcome to take many of the items that are in the apartment... just to give her another little head start on home making. All of this is supported by 'the church'... individuals that love God and care... about both the mother and the unborn.

Abortion is never the best solution and there are far more people that aren't sitting on their butts than you seem to think there are. The problem isn't lack of interest, care or love. I have never heard of a mom in trouble being turned away by any of the CPC's. They are there. They do whatever it takes to help. The problem is, so many would rather take what they perceive as the 'easy way out'. They don't want help to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. They want it gone. And that's the hard, cold fact. And they certainly don't want anyone telling them that it's wrong.

I can totally understand that... but to keep our mouths shut and give them a hug, telling them that we support their choice, is a false and filthy love that doesn't care anything about the future state of the mothers heart/mind or soul. The after affects are enormous and we need to love them with a true love like Jesus does. He always told them the truth about sin and the cost. Because He loves! He never, ever leaves someone in their sinful state when they come near Him.

On a more personal note, if anyone were in need of a place to stay through a pregnancy (and after), I can not imagine any believer that I know that would turn her away. Every one of them would open their own home. I don't know your experiences and what Christians you've been around... but I don't believe yours are the common experience of most Christians.

One more point... abortion is murder. There's no getting around that. The supreme court ruling it legal doesn't change the fact that a life is interrupted in a very violent manner and brought to an end. We are obligated before God to call sin, sin. To agree with Him and love others enough to try and persuade them to seek Him and obey Him.


When God says "Thou shalt not...", He effectively wipes out our 'right to choose' or support someone else's right to choose.


As I said above, those things are in place, yet they stay away from that help and kill their children instead.


Some churches probably do that. I'd most likely be rude and tag them as dead churches. :D

A local church in my community is just now going through the ordeal of having three pregnant teens... girls that were raised in the church. Have they been ostracized? Nope. They've been surrounded, supported and forgiven and cheered on for keeping their babies. One has been on a continuous pray request list because she went into labor prematurely. Her precious baby lived two weeks. She and her church family were heartbroken.
I do get that you are not for abortion and that you would do what you could to prevent an abortion if you felt it was possible. To a point. You would also not 'inflict' your 'opinion' on a woman that was planning to abort. You love her (to the best of your ability) and let her know that you're not judgmental about her choice... like all those other nasty, mean Christians... :hug:

The deal breaker here is that I would say (humbly) that I love her more than you do. I know the pain of sin and what it cost our Lord... and would want more than anything to help her avoid that pain. Under that reason alone, I would LOVE to see that choice taken away as a legal option. To spare her/them the far greater pain that will wreak havoc in her life than carrying the baby to term and either keeping him/her or giving him/her up for adoption, will do.



Um... actually I've attended church where half the congregation were those that lived on the streets. They were met with friendly conversation and many of the physical needs were met, as well as warm Christian fellowship.

Hate to tell ya, but you aren't merely 'associated' with the church... you as a follower of Christ are the church. So, good for you for taking in the young lady in need. You did what the church does... nothing more, nothing less.


I can't wait to roll up my sleeves (again) and hold my new grand daughter and help raise her in the love and admonition of the Lord.

Your view of 'the church' is so dark and bitter... I feel sad for you. I share what I have in the hopes that you might realize it isn't as dismal as you paint it. There's a ton going on that you apparently aren't privy to wherever you live. Praise God!





Love that song! Amazing to realize that Jesus loved them, touched them and took them out of their lifestyles of being sluts, thieves and liars. Me included!





There was a story on the news not long ago about a man that beat his little two year old son to death while bystanders watched. No one stepped forward. No one tried to rescue the child. They just watched. Sad, I'm sure. Shocked, maybe. But they just stood there and let the child die. The father will indeed stand before God about this choice he made (either here on earth or face to face at the judgment.) I also believe that those that stood and did nothing will stand before God for the choice they made that day.

This is no different.

Wow... very sorry about the excessively long post! Reps for anyone that read it all. :lol:

This entire post is so well thought out, so well written and so full of God's truths, I felt it needed repeating.

Reps, for reading? No, dear one, reps for writing it! :pp

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 01:45 PM
The law only assigns punishment for crimes. Hopefully the punishment is a strong enough deterrent. It in NO WAY forces anyone to comply, they still have a choice.

No society on this planet has ever forced people to quit committing murder.

The law is forced upon people. Does it "prevent" people from acting? Not always. But to say it is not forced isn't really accurate either. It does act as a deterrent. As for abortion, it would act as a HUGE deterrent because it would not be available to many who seek it. Thus, the baby would be protected for a little while at least.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 02:43 PM
Thank you. So, given my choices, if I must act like the “Christians” in this thread – I’ll go with, “Simply not saved”. But I really did think it was about Christ in me, the hope of glory – guess I have that part wrong too. Oh well.

And it IS rather disingenuous of you to say that no one responded to your questions. Did we or did we not have a discussion on hierarchal sin? Just because I disagreed with you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And I did respond to your “Let’s support a mans choice to rape his daughter” waaaayyyyyy back in about post 37 or 38. Just because I disagreed with you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

If Jesus is all it takes then, by your own admission, one can both be an active Nazi killing Jews and a Christian at the same time.

There are certain ideologies (as I have consistently explained) that are so contradictory to the Christian faith that one would have to be ignorant (young in the faith), backslidden in thought, or simply not a Christian to believe them or engage in them. Though Christ is all it takes for salvation, certain ideologies can prevent us from knowing Christ or having a relationship with Him. As shocking as this might sound, one cannot believe a lot of things and still be a Christian. Would you argue that someone who believes in Islam is a Christian? Would you argue that someone that is Hindu (but accepts Jesus is God) is a Christian? Would you accept that the Grand Dragon of the KKK is, deep down, really a Christian?


Why is there no outrage at that?

That was posted in this very thread and people still question that abortion clinic protesters call women murderers. How naive are y’all?

It's an accurate statement. Why would I speak out against it?


I TRULY wish the OP would list all of the requirements for salvation and correct doctrinal beliefs that one must have to make it to heaven. I can't wait to see his list, it will get ripped to shreds...

I TRULY wish you would have read the OP....


Now according to some of these people we have to be pro-life to recieve salvation.

You can reference all my previous posts. Just because you can't respond to them doesn't mean you have to build a strawman so you can look right.


For myself - I'm prolife (beyond just abortion), but I'm not going to make others live by my beliefs.

You didn't respond to my previous post. Why don't you speak out against all laws?


I still think that oversimplifies things and judges others.
There are many many views that Christians may not agree on.
And many of them can be supported on both sides of the issue from the Bible.
And that is ok because those things are not what makes one a Christian or not.
The Lord will sort us all out in His own time.
I would not say that those born again Christians who are pro-choice are young in the faith, or backslidden or not Christian, merely that they are in a different place in their walk with the Lord.

Then once again - one can be a Nazi security guard, killing Jews on a whim and enjoying it and still be a Christian by your definition.

If different thoughts are just that and have no bearing on if the Holy Spirit is working in us, we can literally think anything we want and believe anything we want and not worry about it affecting our walk with Christ. That, of course, contradicts Scripture.


By all means, show me one society in all of humanity that has forced people to stop murdering each other.

Uh, every single society that has had a government. Strict laws have always been in place - you can still murder, but if caught you'll face dire consequences. That has been one of the few universal laws throughout history.


The law only assigns punishment for crimes. Hopefully the punishment is a strong enough deterrent. It in NO WAY forces anyone to comply, they still have a choice.

No society on this planet has ever forced people to quit committing murder.

Oh, you're right. So let's just legalize it. That makes sense. :rolleyes:

It couldn't possibly be that you're playing with semantics at this point so you can look right.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 02:59 PM
This thread has more rabbit trails then the woods behind my house. About the only trail that has road blocks is the one where the babies are being killed to the tune of nearly 4,000 babies per day. That's 4,000 children created in the image of God Almighty. 4,000 that will never see the light of day or have the chance to fulfill the purposes of God.

Boil it down for me, someone...

Where does the Word of God say abortion can be an accepted practice by Christians? Where is the grey area? Where does the Word point out we have days, months, years to debate wether abortion is murder of the innocent?

What other form of murder is given so many excuses? When have you ever heard someone say, well....he was too expensive, so I shot him last night, so I get a pass, right? She was getting in the way of me going to college, so I stabbed her...no problem, right?
He had deformities, I couldn't afford the time or effort and my heart couldn't take the pain...so I drowned him.

God help us and have mercy. :pray:

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 03:22 PM
If Jesus is all it takes then, by your own admission, one can both be an active Nazi killing Jews and a Christian at the same time.

There are certain ideologies (as I have consistently explained) that are so contradictory to the Christian faith that one would have to be ignorant (young in the faith), backslidden in thought, or simply not a Christian to believe them or engage in them. Though Christ is all it takes for salvation, certain ideologies can prevent us from knowing Christ or having a relationship with Him. As shocking as this might sound, one cannot believe a lot of things and still be a Christian. Would you argue that someone who believes in Islam is a Christian? Would you argue that someone that is Hindu (but accepts Jesus is God) is a Christian? Would you accept that the Grand Dragon of the KKK is, deep down, really a Christian.

Then once again - one can be a Nazi security guard, killing Jews on a whim and enjoying it and still be a Christian by your definition.

If different thoughts are just that and have no bearing on if the Holy Spirit is working in us, we can literally think anything we want and believe anything we want and not worry about it affecting our walk with Christ. That, of course, contradicts Scripture.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Romans 6:1-16
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

quiet dove
Aug 25th 2008, 04:19 PM
This is getting out of hand, play nice, stop with the personal comments and stop judging each others salvation.

I hate to sound like you mother here everyone, but if I have to come back to this thread cause folks aren't playing nice, the thread is out a here.

IPet2_9
Aug 25th 2008, 04:34 PM
I have not read this thread extensively, but let me say that I am Christian and I am pro-choice to an extent. When I was a kid, my own mom had an abortion when it threatened her life. I stand by her decision. She did the right thing. It was a matter of the baby's life vs. the mother's. If she had not, I and my siblings would have grown up with no mother.

The single most important thing, though: it was my PARENTS' decision to make--not the government's.

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 05:31 PM
So were NAZI concentration camps.


If Jesus is all it takes then, by your own admission, one can both be an active Nazi killing Jews and a Christian at the same time.

Then once again - one can be a Nazi security guard, killing Jews on a whim and enjoying it and still be a Christian by your definition.

It is statements like those that remind me why I would never align myself with the pro-life group. Even though I do believe that abortion is wrong, I would never align myself with a group of people who compare pregnant women who have abortions to nazis.
Those women do not share your view of abortion.
They did not plan to get pregnant and murder their fetuses.
They usually don't chose to accept the definition of life as beginning at conception. That makes it easier for them to have the abortion which they may chose to call a termination of pregnancy rather than an abortion because it helps them to deal with what they have done.
Women who chose to have abortions do so for a variety of reasons, but none of them do so with the intent of committing murder.
Their perception of things is different from yours.
But, no matter whose perception is correct, you cannot assign an intent to them that they did not have.
Someone who commits vehicular manslaughter accidentally is not called a murderer because they did not intentionally drive their vehicle with the intent of commiting murder.
Someone who does not consider an embryo to be a human life yet (whether you personally agree with that definition or not) is not intentionally committing murder "on a whim and enjoying it".


I have not read this thread extensively, but let me say that I am Christian and I am pro-choice to an extent. When I was a kid, my own mom had an abortion when it threatened her life. I stand by her decision. She did the right thing. It was a matter of the baby's life vs. the mother's. If she had not, I and my siblings would have grown up with no mother.

The single most important thing, though: it was my PARENTS' decision to make--not the government's.
I had a similar experience. My mother had cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy and at one point thought she might be pregnant. She was told that if she were and continued the pregnancy neither one of them were likely to survive. She had to consider the option of abortion.
As it turned out, she was not pregnant and did not have to make that choice. However, if she were, I would have wanted that option to have been available to her.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 05:50 PM
A fact:

Abortions performed for truly saving the life of the mother has never been illegal in this country.
That option has always been available.

It's only since 1973 that elective abortions for any reason became legal.
Only since then have perfectly healthy mothers elected to have their perfectly healthy babies killed.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 05:52 PM
I have not read this thread extensively, but let me say that I am Christian and I am pro-choice to an extent. When I was a kid, my own mom had an abortion when it threatened her life. I stand by her decision. She did the right thing. It was a matter of the baby's life vs. the mother's. If she had not, I and my siblings would have grown up with no mother.

The single most important thing, though: it was my PARENTS' decision to make--not the government's.

This only occurs in 2% of abortions and prior to Roe v Wade abortion was allowed when the life of the mother was threatened. Generally, when the life of the mother is threatened it means the baby is already dead or dying. Obviously, no one is arguing that if the life of the mother is threatened the mother isn't allowed to get an abortion.

We are dealing with people who get abortions for reasons other than the life of the mother.

Toymom,

It is statements like those that remind me why I would never align myself with the pro-life group. Even though I do believe that abortion is wrong, I would never align myself with a group of people who compare pregnant women who have abortions to nazis.

Can you tell me what the difference is? Both murder for selfish reasons. In fact, I would argue that the Nazi ideology is more defensible than the pro-choice ideology. The Nazi's at least thought that by doing what they were doing they would better society. The vast majority of abortions, however, are done in order to make the would-be mother's life easier to live.

It is far more defensible to defend the Nazi ideology of racial superiority than it is to defend a woman's right to kill her own child because she just doesn't feel ready.


Those women do not share your view of abortion.
They did not plan to get pregnant and murder their fetuses.
They usually don't chose to accept the definition of life as beginning at conception. That makes it easier for them to have the abortion which they may chose to call a termination of pregnancy rather than an abortion because it helps them to deal with what they have done.
Women who chose to have abortions do so for a variety of reasons, but none of them do so with the intent of committing murder.

This doesn't work. A person who lynches a black person for being back doesn't intend to kill a human. In the lyncher's mind the black person isn't human, but instead is sub-human. The Nazi's killed Jews because they viewed the Jews as non-human. None of this justifies their actions. Likewise, a person's view on when life begins doesn't justify snatching the life from the child. I won't buy into this relativistic garbage you're spewing. We're talking about human life here.


But, no matter whose perception is correct, you cannot assign an intent to them that they did not have.
Someone who commits vehicular manslaughter accidentally is not called a murderer because they did not intentionally drive their vehicle with the intent of commiting murder.

Their intent is to liquidate the life that is inside of them. How can you argue against that?

What you're arguing is if someone kills a three year old child, but doesn't believe the three year old is human and is just a highly evolved animal that hasn't evolved to "humanity" yet, that person shouldn't be held accountable for what the person does. Do you not see how illogical your argument is?

Brother Mark
Aug 25th 2008, 05:56 PM
It is statements like those that remind me why I would never align myself with the pro-life group. Even though I do believe that abortion is wrong, I would never align myself with a group of people who compare pregnant women who have abortions to nazis.

Not the women, the system. But let's not justify nor nullify the gross act that is occurring.


Those women do not share your view of abortion.

That's why they can have them.


They did not plan to get pregnant and murder their fetuses.

Abortions are planned and premeditated.


They usually don't chose to accept the definition of life as beginning at conception. That makes it easier for them to have the abortion which they may chose to call a termination of pregnancy rather than an abortion because it helps them to deal with what they have done.
Women who chose to have abortions do so for a variety of reasons, but none of them do so with the intent of committing murder.
Their perception of things is different from yours.

Which is why we need to educate, educate, educate.


But, no matter whose perception is correct, you cannot assign an intent to them that they did not have.
Someone who commits vehicular manslaughter accidentally is not called a murderer because they did not intentionally drive their vehicle with the intent of commiting murder.
Someone who does not consider an embryo to be a human life yet (whether you personally agree with that definition or not) is not intentionally committing murder "on a whim and enjoying it".

Come now. So, since Hitler did not consider Jews completely human, we can't call him a murder? Since blacks were once considered 2/3 or 3/5ths of a vote, to lynch a black was not wrong?


I had a similar experience. My mother had cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy and at one point thought she might be pregnant. She was told that if she were and continued the pregnancy neither one of them were likely to survive. She had to consider the option of abortion.
As it turned out, she was not pregnant and did not have to make that choice. However, if she were, I would have wanted that option to have been available to her.

Again, that is obfuscating what most abortions are for. They are simply used as birth control by the vast majority of folks that have abortions.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 06:00 PM
It is statements like those that remind me why I would never align myself with the pro-life group. Even though I do believe that abortion is wrong, I would never align myself with a group of people who compare pregnant women who have abortions to nazis.
Those women do not share your view of abortion.
They did not plan to get pregnant and murder their fetuses.
They usually don't chose to accept the definition of life as beginning at conception. That makes it easier for them to have the abortion which they may chose to call a termination of pregnancy rather than an abortion because it helps them to deal with what they have done.
Women who chose to have abortions do so for a variety of reasons, but none of them do so with the intent of committing murder.
Their perception of things is different from yours.
But, no matter whose perception is correct, you cannot assign an intent to them that they did not have.
Someone who commits vehicular manslaughter accidentally is not called a murderer because they did not intentionally drive their vehicle with the intent of commiting murder.
Someone who does not consider an embryo to be a human life yet (whether you personally agree with that definition or not) is not intentionally committing murder "on a whim and enjoying it".

Since when is ignorance an excuse to kill another human being? The law wouldn't accept as such for a born human. After 35 years and with this being the information age, it would take effort to remain ignorant.
And people who have a car accident are still held accountable, whether they did it intentionally or not.


I had a similar experience. My mother had cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy and at one point thought she might be pregnant. She was told that if she were and continued the pregnancy neither one of them were likely to survive. She had to consider the option of abortion.

As it turned out, she was not pregnant and did not have to make that choice. However, if she were, I would have wanted that option to have been available to her.

This has all ready been addressed, your mother would have not been denied an abortion to save her life.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 06:01 PM
Again, because no one has dealt with this:

Should BTK be in prison? How can we adequately judge him when we don't know what went through his mind? We don't know what caused him to kill. We don't know the troubles he had. So who do we think we are to judge him?

TRL1957
Aug 25th 2008, 06:13 PM
I think a baby has a soul at conception. And I believe some mothers are going to see their aborted children in Heaven.
I also believe what JER. 1:5, says. Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. God has a plan for the lives he created. I know we have a loving God, who valued our lives enough, to die for us. To spare us from destruction.

redeemedbyhim
Aug 25th 2008, 06:33 PM
I think a baby has a soul at conception. And I believe some mothers are going to see their aborted children in Heaven.
I also believe what JER. 1:5, says. Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. God has a plan for the lives he created. I know we have a loving God, who valued our lives enough, to die for us. To spare us from destruction.


Summed up beautifully.

IPet2_9
Aug 25th 2008, 07:14 PM
This only occurs in 2% of abortions and prior to Roe v Wade abortion was allowed when the life of the mother was threatened. Generally, when the life of the mother is threatened it means the baby is already dead or dying. Obviously, no one is arguing that if the life of the mother is threatened the mother isn't allowed to get an abortion.


Sounds like this discussion indeed has splintered off in many different directions. I can only go by the OP title: whether a Christian can be pro-choice. Not whether Roe v. Wade was wrong; not whether and/or when abortion is wrong.

At the heart of the matter is, when does life begin? The reality is, we just don't know. We may THINK we know, but...we don't. God knows, we don't. The government doesn't know, either. If life does indeed begin at conception, then abortion is murder and should be treated as murder--other than the fact that it is not entirely clear, in the mother's mind, if it truly is. You have to take that into consideration.

The issue at hand, adhering strictly to the OP's title, is whether it is for the parents or the government to make that moral judgement. I tend to believe it is the parents' decision. I can't say either way whether abortion is wrong, or when--I just don't want government in our families' business.

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 07:32 PM
The vast majority of abortions, however, are done in order to make the would-be mother's life easier to live.



Which is why we need to educate, educate, educate.
Again, that is obfuscating what most abortions are for. They are simply used as birth control by the vast majority of folks that have abortions.

Yes, many abortions are used as birth control. And no, I don't agree with that.
And I agree that there should be more and better education about birth control, absinence and abortion.

However, as much as I disagree with abortion, I do not feel that I can make that decision for another woman.

You may sit and judge some woman who is pregnant and say that she should just have the baby and give it up for adoption.

But, the woman's life is affected. What about the woman who has 5 children and no health insurance and her husband is an alcoholic and she gets so sick when she is pregnant that she will be unable to care for her other children and she is a Christian and was using birth control but it failed. Who is going to care for her children and pay her medical bills?
You can sit around and judge her and call her decision not to have that baby selfish and call her a Nazi, but I cannot.
What about the 11 year old girl who is raped by one of her mother's many boyfriends and she is pregnant in 5th grade?

There are a huge variety of reasons why women chose to have abortions and I am not qualified to sit in judgement over them.

I totally agree that the Lord knows each one of us in the womb when we are formed.
I agree that life is precious.
If abortion were to be made illegal again I do think that perhaps some people would think about things and do things a bit differently.
But it is not illegal.
And women who chose to have abortions can still be Christians and can still be forgiven for it.
It does not make it right, nor does it make it excusable.
However, it also does not make someone unable to be a Christian.

kayte
Aug 25th 2008, 07:43 PM
The issue at hand, adhering strictly to the OP's title, is whether it is for the parents or the government to make that moral judgement. I tend to believe it is the parents' decision. I can't say either way whether abortion is wrong, or when--I just don't want government in our families' business.
This will probably sound weird, but the day I conceived my daughter, I knew it. I knew without a doubt that I was going to have a child. I fell in love with that child, that day. I didn't fall in love with cells, but with the tiny human being growing in my womb. I took a pregnancy test a month and 1/2 later just to confirm what I already knew (for the sake of others... like my husband. :lol:) I also knew within a week when I became pregnant with my son. I just knew I was carrying a new life.

On your thoughts that you don't want the government in your families business, I don't mean to be out of line and I'm not being obstinate or trying to use shock value... this is how I truly see this issue: I can't kill my husband or children or grandchildren and tell the government that they have no right to intrude in my families business. I assume you agree with me on that?

If so, can you tell me what the difference is between them (husband/wife, children, grandchildren) and an unborn child? Is it just the location of that child? Is it because we can't see him/her hidden in the womb (without an ultrasound, anyway?)

Thanks in advance. :)

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 07:46 PM
Sounds like this discussion indeed has splintered off in many different directions. I can only go by the OP title: whether a Christian can be pro-choice. Not whether Roe v. Wade was wrong; not whether and/or when abortion is wrong.

....or you could actually read the OP itself since my post was on topic...


At the heart of the matter is, when does life begin? The reality is, we just don't know. We may THINK we know, but...we don't. God knows, we don't. The government doesn't know, either. If life does indeed begin at conception, then abortion is murder and should be treated as murder--other than the fact that it is not entirely clear, in the mother's mind, if it truly is. You have to take that into consideration.

Yes we can. It begins at conception. This is the most logical and Biblical answer. To say "we can't know" is a cop out. On top of that, it's an absurd argument because if we can't know when life begins, then shouldn't we at least default to the view of conception just in case that is when life begins?


The issue at hand, adhering strictly to the OP's title, is whether it is for the parents or the government to make that moral judgement. I tend to believe it is the parents' decision. I can't say either way whether abortion is wrong, or when--I just don't want government in our families' business.

That has nothing to do with the OP. The OP deals with how illogical and inconsistent it is for Christians to adhere to a pro-choice view.

Let me ask you - are you against laws against child abuse? I mean, shouldn't that be the private issue for a family? If a father gets drunk one night and beats his children, so what? It's up to the family.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 07:50 PM
However, as much as I disagree with abortion, I do not feel that I can make that decision for another woman.

So is it okay for her to kill her 2 year old? Why can you make a decision for her on that, but not on abortion?


But, the woman's life is affected. What about the woman who has 5 children and no health insurance and her husband is an alcoholic and she gets so sick when she is pregnant that she will be unable to care for her other children and she is a Christian and was using birth control but it failed. Who is going to care for her children and pay her medical bills?
You can sit around and judge her and call her decision not to have that baby selfish and call her a Nazi, but I cannot.
What about the 11 year old girl who is raped by one of her mother's many boyfriends and she is pregnant in 5th grade?

Oh, I get it. A person's external circumstances or the burden a child will bring to someone is justification for a death sentence on that child.

Let's start killing children in Africa - after all, those children are a burden on their already starving parents. If a child becomes a burden later in life, just kill them! It makes so much sense now! :pp

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 07:51 PM
What's funny is no one has STILL dealt with the OP. No one has even taken a crack at it. Instead, we keep getting the same old tired one-liners that have been handled.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 25th 2008, 07:58 PM
Lately a lot of Christians have been coming out and saying they’re pro-choice, declaring they’re not necessarily for abortion, but they are for the right of the woman to choose. I want to look at some of the arguments for this and argue why a Christian simply cannot be pro-Choice:

1) “We have no right to tell a woman what to do with her own body.”

This argument has been dealt with already in another post I made concerning abortion. I argued:

This way of thinking assumes too much - it assumes that we can do whatever we want to our bodies without having a communal consequence. However, there are times where what I do to my body will inevitably affect those around me (i.e. if I inject myself with an airborne disease, because it will harm those around me I do not have the right to do such a thing). Almost everyone would argue that if we take an action against our body that negatively affects others, that action shouldn’t be taken.

In this case, the child in the womb is ontologically separate from the mother, though reliant. That is to say, the child really isn’t part of the mother’s body. The mother plays host to the body. If a guest comes into your house, eats your food, drinks your water, and sleeps in your bed, does that guest belong to you? Of course not - the guest, though reliant upon you, is not a part of who you are.

The counter to the above argument is that the baby, especially early on, is made up of cells provided by the mother. This is true, but completely irrelevant. No female can spontaneously produce a child without any fertilization from a male. This means that the baby isn’t entirely made up of the mother’s cells, which would seem to indicate that the child in the womb isn’t really part of the mother’s body (in the same way an arm, heart, or lung is part of the mother’s body).

All of this means that the child growing within the mother is really a body inside a body and not just an extension of the mother’s body. It contains foreign matter (via sperm) that is not natural to the mother’s body. If that is true, an abortion is an act that is taken out on the mother’s body that severely affects the child (through death). This would mean that abortion is highly immoral since it is a selfish action that harms an innocent party.

In short, a baby simply isn’t a part or an extension of the mother’s body, but instead a separate being that is reliant upon the mother.

In light of this, though we might not have a right to tell a woman what to do with her own body, we do have a right to tell her what to do with her body when her actions affect a living human being.

2) “There are other issues that should be dealt with.”

It is true that there are other issues that need to be dealt with, but we must ask ourselves if these other issues are on par with or above our ethical responsibility to human life. I believe there are two approaches to this view:

I) The hierarchialist view – Under this view one accepts that there is a hierarchy of ethical conduct. Thus, there are some ethical codes that are simply higher than others. If the Nazis knock on my door and ask if I’m hiding Jews and I am, in fact, hiding Jews then most hierarchicalists would argue that protecting human life is a higher good than lying. Thus, one is allowed to suspend the ethical judgment against lying because a higher ethical calling is on the line. Another example is that of speeding. Most would agree that it is ‘ethical’ to go the speed limit (ethical in that it is obeying the law), but most would also argue that if there was a life-threatening emergency that required one speed to the hospital it would be okay to suspend the ethic of following the law in order to follow the ethic of saving a life.

Biblically this holds some justification. Though there is nothing explicit within Scripture that says there is a hierarchy, it is implicit in some of the ethical situations presented. Without going into too much detail we can see that the Law itself holds different punishments for different offenses, with offenses and crimes against the image of God (humans) holding severe penalties. Likewise, we know it is wrong to deceive people or to tell half truths, yet we see God ordering Samuel to deceive and tell a half truth when directed by God to go anoint David as king. Jesus tells us not to deny Him while Paul tells us to follow the government and ruling authorities; the Jewish authorities told Paul to cease preaching Jesus, but he disobeyed them. Obviously, in this instance, the higher ethical value was following God rather than following an authority. The list goes on, but this should help to show that there are some ethics that are higher than others.

With the above in mind once could argue that crimes against humanity are more severe than any other ethical violation (such as pollution or animal cruelty). Things such as homosexuality, adultery, alcoholism, drug abuse, or even child abuse – though evil in their own right – do not measure up to murder. Whereas there is still life after the previous offenses, murder is a final act.

In light of this, though there are other acts that are important and should be dealt with, ethically speaking abortion is the greatest unethical act allowed by law, thus it should be the number one issue when going to the voting booth. This is not to say the other issues aren’t important, but simply that they are not as important as that of abortion.

II) The Deontological view – this view would hold that all values are equal. Lying and murdering are both ethically wrong and should both be avoided, regardless of the consequences. To use an above example, even if you need to speed in order to save a life you shouldn’t speed because you would be violating an ethical principle.

Even this view, however, would negate the above argument. Though other issues would be viewed as equal they would not be mutually exclusive to desiring to ban abortion. One could conceivably be passionate about both environmental reform and banning abortion on demand.

3) “Why don’t you get out there and talk to the women instead of trying to pass a law against abortion?”

For whatever reason some people are pro-choice because they believe abortions will happen no matter what we do to prevent them. Thus, they argue to forgo the law and address people on a personal level.

Let it be said that I do support a form of this argument. Two of my previous articles deal directly with this view. I do whole-heartedly believe that on any issue we should deal with the person and realize the law will make little difference.

That being said, I believe that abortion is a violation of natural law and should therefore be banned. Not that this will stop abortions, but it will certainly limit them and it simply is the right thing to do.

If we apply this logic across the board it simply doesn’t work. Some men are going to rape women no matter what, so why not try to address these men on a personal level and forget about making rape illegal? What about murder, child abuse, or any other list of crimes? This is not a slippery-slope argument; this is taking the way of thinking for this one issue and applying it to other issues. When we do this it fails.

Instead, as Christians, we should be reaching out to these women while trying to ban the practice of abortion. The two are not mutually exclusive.

4) “It’s not my calling as a Christian to change the law or to make the lost behave like Christians.”

There might be some merit to this argument, but this still wouldn’t support a Christian being pro-choice. In fact, a Christian that wanted to consistently hold to this belief would simply have to cease voting or holding any opinion on politics.

Even if we are not supposed to hold political sway we simply cannot say we are pro-choice. To say you are pro-choice is to say you believe a woman holds the right to kill her own child. Let that sink in for a bit. Should we honestly believe or teach that something is wrong, that abortion is really the act of taking a human life, but then turn around and argue that someone has a right to do this?

Overall, I would argue that it is simply illogical for a Christian to claim Christ and the pro-choice agenda. It is inconsistent – one cannot denounce abortion as wrong (because it takes a human life), but then argue a woman has a right to have an abortion. This is a logically inconsistent view. If one wanted to be consistent then one would have to apply this to rape, murder, theft, and a host of other crimes. All of these crimes violate the rights of other people and create victims, as does abortion. Instead, Christians are called to speak out against all violent acts that unjustly end the life of a human being. We should not teach that a person has the right to have a choice when it comes to unjustly harming another human. In the end, a Christian cannot support the pro-Choice agenda.


In case anyone forgot...

As you can see, every argument that has been brought up was already dealt with in the OP. No one has even argued back against it.

#1 and #4 have been the most common arguments brought up...and it's already been dealt with. This is getting old.

Toymom
Aug 25th 2008, 08:34 PM
In case anyone forgot...

As you can see, every argument that has been brought up was already dealt with in the OP. No one has even argued back against it.

#1 and #4 have been the most common arguments brought up...and it's already been dealt with. This is getting old.
if you feel that you are right and everyone else is wrong and you already know what others will say, then why even bring it up?