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JesusMySavior
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:02 AM
Justification by grace or justification by works?

I agree with the former, as it says in Romans 4. However, it says in James 2:21 that Abraham was justified by works; where as Romans 4:3 says it was accounted to Him righteousness by faith.

I've always had problems with James - I've never gotten along with it. I can't figure out why but perhaps it's because it's directed towards an audience that felt content to sit back and do nothing.

Obviously God cannot lie and He doesn't contradict Himself; but I always tend to have problems with scripture colliding with each other.

Anybody that can help clear this up? Thanks!

Jerry4America
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:06 AM
James does collide with Romans for sure. The verse in question about being justified by works is in complete disagreement with Romans. The first verse to James says who it is directed to, JEWS. People in the tribulation, especially the Jews, who will be dispersed, will be saved by works + faith. Today, however, we are saved by grace through faith and nothing else. Good job catching the difference there!

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:19 AM
All James is saying is that Abraham's faith was attested to by his works. But it's not saying that works is what justifies us (it is merely a showing of our faith).

Joe King
Aug 23rd 2008, 02:34 AM
All James is saying is that Abraham's faith was attested to by his works. But it's not saying that works is what justifies us (it is merely a showing of our faith).

Works show faith. Brilliant. I could not have thought of a better way to say it:pp

Alaska
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:01 AM
All James is saying is that Abraham's faith was attested to by his works. But it's not saying that works is what justifies us (it is merely a showing of our faith).

Paul and James were saying the exact same thing.
Paul, however, was writing to those who he anticipated to have had some grounding in the basics of Christianity, so he, [not addressing the matter directly like James] was emphasising faith in Christ [as opposed to the OT system of law before Christ] as the source of what he understood they already were very familiar with: that Jesus came to bring "obedience to the truth".
Rom. 1:
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Rom. 2:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Peter was also on the same page with both Paul and James:
1 Pet. 1:
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The truth that we are to obey is the truth of the "common faith" that Jesus revealed in the NT.

To misinterpret "justified by faith" to exclude action that naturally accompanies faith and is inseparable from justification, is like hearing someone say "I arrived by air" [meaning by airplane] and assuming that somehow the literal air brought him without the vehicle of the plane by which he was able to come by air.
"Inseparable" I say: as inseparable as the body is from the spirit in order for there to be life.

James 2:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jerry4America
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:27 AM
All James is saying is that Abraham's faith was attested to by his works. But it's not saying that works is what justifies us (it is merely a showing of our faith). Actually, that is EXACTLY what it is saying. You are trying to say what you THINK it teaches, but it SAYS that "...by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."
That is what James SAYS.

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:51 AM
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it is saying. You are trying to say what you THINK it teaches, but it SAYS that "...by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."
That is what James SAYS.

Of all the eloquent things I could say, I will simply say. No, you're wrong.

JesusMySavior
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:01 AM
Of all the eloquent things I could say, I will simply say. No, you're wrong.


James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (NKJV)


so what's up with this scripture? :hmm:

manichunter
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:03 AM
Justification by grace or justification by works?

I agree with the former, as it says in Romans 4. However, it says in James 2:21 that Abraham was justified by works; where as Romans 4:3 says it was accounted to Him righteousness by faith.

I've always had problems with James - I've never gotten along with it. I can't figure out why but perhaps it's because it's directed towards an audience that felt content to sit back and do nothing.

Obviously God cannot lie and He doesn't contradict Himself; but I always tend to have problems with scripture colliding with each other.

Anybody that can help clear this up? Thanks!

The grace made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus justified all those who exercised trust by being obedient and trustworthy in the prescribed manner of love towards God and mankind. Hence we are justified by His grace and our actions support that we have received His grace.

SIG
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:03 AM
The kind of faith that justifies brings forth works that also justify. If one claims to be justified by faith, but shows no works as evidence, we must doubt their justification.

So then, you will know them by their fruits. --Matt 7:20

(PS: Scriptures don't "collide" -- though our understanding of them can, and does.)

Jerry4America
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:06 AM
Of all the eloquent things I could say, I will simply say. No, you're wrong.I don't understand people. I've got a question for you, mr. right. How does this verse "Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only," NOT say "BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED???? It just SAID it! I know and completely understand what you want it to TEACH, but it DOES say "... BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED..."!! How can you say that me saying that is WRONG?

Once again, I know and completely understand since I used to be a fundamentalist for 15 years, what you think and want it to TEACH, but no matter what YOU say, that verse SAYS, "...BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith ONLY!" THAT is the complete opposite as what PAUL SAID.

SIG
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:12 AM
I don't understand people. I've got a question for you, mr. right. How does this verse "Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only," NOT say "BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED???? It just SAID it! I know and completely understand what you want it to TEACH, but it DOES say "... BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED..."!! How can you say that me saying that is WRONG?

Once again, I know and completely understand since I used to be a fundamentalist for 15 years, what you think and want it to TEACH, but no matter what YOU say, that verse SAYS, "...BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith ONLY!" THAT is the complete opposite as what PAUL SAID.

"BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only"

You left off the word "only," which makes a huge difference.

Faith which produces works justifies. It's not an either/or, but one following the other.

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:35 AM
James 2:24 - "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (NKJV)

so what's up with this scripture? :hmm:

You must quote in fuller context:

James 2:24-26 (NASB):

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


I don't understand people. I've got a question for you, mr. right. How does this verse "Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only," NOT say "BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED???? It just SAID it! I know and completely understand what you want it to TEACH, but it DOES say "... BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED..."!! How can you say that me saying that is WRONG?

Once again, I know and completely understand since I used to be a fundamentalist for 15 years, what you think and want it to TEACH, but no matter what YOU say, that verse SAYS, "...BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith ONLY!" THAT is the complete opposite as what PAUL SAID.

Oh, now I'm a fundamentalist? I'm getting a little confused. I was kicked out of the fundamentalist camp a long time ago (for supporting 'evolution' - I prefer the English pronunciation: 'evilution'). I was just recently kicked out of the conservative camp (for saying a woman could teach... Or was it that I said women could wear slacks?). But now I'm back in the fundamentalist camp for saying that works are evidence of faith? Works because we are saved, not to become saved.

But hey, lets drop that. You know what, I need to apologize. You are correct. If you read James 2:24 in seclusion without considering its context (which makes it a pretext) then you are correct. That is what James is saying. But as it turns out you're taking his words out of context and that is itself eisegetical. You're reading into the text what you want it to say. Lets not accuse each other of this all day, cyclical things quickly become boring.

In answer to your question: read the whole chapter. And no, you don't completely understand - you have no idea where I stand.

Jerry4America
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:46 AM
"BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only"

You left off the word "only," which makes a huge difference.

Faith which produces works justifies. It's not an either/or, but one following the other.It's a nice way of looking at it. I used to look at it that way. I didn't leave off the word ONLY either. One time in that post, I left off, but by faith only" just because I was being monotnous and didn't want to go too far :D. According to Romans, works has NO part in justification of the soul. Once again, James is written to Jews who are SCATTERED ABROAD. In the book of James, you have the tribulation types in it- Job for one (5:11), a type for the jews who are on the ground for seven days and seven nights through 42 chapters (the amount of months in the Great Tribulation) who loses everything and then gets everything back at the end, just like the Jews will; Elijah (5:18) who stops the rain from coming to the earth for forty-two months (exactly like in the tribulation where he will do it all OVER again). James and much of Hebrews has a tribulation application.

Jerry4America
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:56 AM
Oh, now I'm a fundamentalist? I didn't call you a fundamentalist, I called MYSELF one back in the day. Fundamentalists believe that EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE HAS TO MATCH.


But hey, lets drop that. You know what, I need to apologize. You are correct. If you read James 2:24 in seclusion without considering its context (which makes it a pretext) then you are correct. That is what James is saying. I appreciate it. Way to man up!;)


But as it turns out you're taking his words out of context and that is itself eisegetical. You're reading into the text what you want it to say. Lets not accuse each other of this all day, cyclical things quickly become boring.

In answer to your question: read the whole chapter. And no, you don't completely understand - you have no idea where I stand. I didn't say I knew everything about you, Mr. Sensitive, I simply said that I understand where you come from ON THIS VERSE!
Now, I am simply reading the book at face value. This verse does not match Romans- never will, unless you spiritualize it away! Now, it is apparent from Matthew and Revelation and Hebrews that people in the tribulation will NOT BE SAVED LIKE WE ARE, or in the case of this verse, JUSTIFIED like we are. Matthew 25, Revelation 20 and 22, Hebrews 6 and most of the book of James does NOT match Pauline doctrine.

Athanasius
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:09 AM
I didn't call you a fundamentalist, I called MYSELF one back in the day. Fundamentalists believe that EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE HAS TO MATCH.

You implied I was a fundamentalist with the following line: Once again, I know and completely understand since I used to be a fundamentalist for 15 years. Ergo, 'I understand your position because at one point in my time - in fact, for 15 years of my life - I held the same position'.



I appreciate it. Way to man up!;)

A bit of a Pyrrhic victory ;}



I didn't say I knew everything about you, Mr. Sensitive, I simply said that I understand where you come from ON THIS VERSE!

If you want to believe that then go ahead, it's not worth pursuing.



Now, I am simply reading the book at face value. This verse does not match Romans- never will, unless you spiritualize it away! Now, it is apparent from Matthew and Revelation and Hebrews that people in the tribulation will NOT BE SAVED LIKE WE ARE, or in the case of this verse, JUSTIFIED like we are. Matthew 25, Revelation 20 and 22, Hebrews 6 and most of the book of James does NOT match Pauline doctrine.

You're reading the book of face value? Or you're reading it in light of Matthew, Revelation and Hebrews? Which is it? Because if you're reading James (or Romans) through the lens of Matthew, Revelation and Hebrews, then you aren't simply taking the book at face value, are you? Of course not.

Alaska has already addressed any 'inconsistencies' between these two pieces of scripture. I don't know why you're now trying to bring Revelation into things.

RogerW
Aug 23rd 2008, 01:22 PM
I don't understand people. I've got a question for you, mr. right. How does this verse "Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only," NOT say "BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED???? It just SAID it! I know and completely understand what you want it to TEACH, but it DOES say "... BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED..."!! How can you say that me saying that is WRONG?

Once again, I know and completely understand since I used to be a fundamentalist for 15 years, what you think and want it to TEACH, but no matter what YOU say, that verse SAYS, "...BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith ONLY!" THAT is the complete opposite as what PAUL SAID.

It is absolutely true, the Scripture tells us we are justified not only by faith but also by works....but, whose work justifies? Is the work ours or is it a good work being manifested by the work of the Holy Spirit in/through us? What sayeth the Scripture?

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Many Blessings,
RW

Alaska
Aug 23rd 2008, 03:23 PM
In Rom. 5:1 when Paul says "being justified by faith"; who was he talking to and what did they believe?
He was talking to born again Christians, and in order for them to experience this justification they had to believe they needed to repent, get baptized etc. as per the commandments of Jesus through the Apostles and teachers in the scriptures.
Justification does not come any other way now, though some will take Paul's words out of context and become "legalistic" after the definition of using the out of context words to declare something to be true but that is not at all true as revealed by its real context.
True, we are justified by faith.
False: Being justified by faith means works are not part of that justification.
By WORKS a man is justified and not by FAITH only.
True: A man in Christ is justified by both faith and works, and the faith relates to believing in Jesus and his commandments and requirements to be justified. Faith comes first and is the SOURCE of the justification that requires accompanying works.
A person is not justified if they believe that Jesus is, yet do not believe that they need to repent.
Repentance is a work that is necessary for justification.

Diolectic
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:24 PM
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.
This is pertaining to works of the law to earn favore with God, which proves you have no faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
:22 See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
This is pertaining to works of faith because you have favore with God, and to prove you have faith.

timmyb
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:29 PM
ok here's my postition

we are saved by grace through faith which is demonstrated by works that we cannot do but by his grace...

we need all three... how does a man show the power of the gospel if he does not sow his life into it... if he doesn't have the faith in the gospel he will not work to sow his life into it... Hebrews 11 says BY FAITH Abraham, and BY FAITH (list a hero of the faith) did something remarkable... it was faith that inspired the work but it's grace that enables us to do the work that God calls us to do...

what good is faith if the person who claims to have it doesn't use it? Nothing...

drew
Aug 23rd 2008, 05:39 PM
I think that one source of the confusion here is that in Romans 4, Paul never denies that Abraham was justified by "good works". How could he say this in light of what he says in Romans about how people will indeed be justified by their "good works" (yet I am not denying "justification by faith" - I see "good works" as the acid test for the reality of faith).

In Romans 4, Paul denies that Abraham was justified by doing the works of Torah, the Law of Moses. So I think I am agreeing with Diolectic on this. I will not provide the supporting argument in this post. Perhaps later.

Alaska
Aug 23rd 2008, 07:32 PM
As in numerous places in the NT Paul is contrasting the NT system with the OT system.
The law was not of faith meaning it was not after the faith that only Jesus came to reveal. Paul also says we were "shut up unto the faith" that should afterward be revealed in Jesus.
It all relates to what was not available in the OT and the greater and better covenant now in place by Jesus.
We are now justified by the NT package, which has at its core the requirement of faith.
After the long reign that the OT system had, accepting this newly revealed system and events that fulfilled prophesy and brought conditional reconciliation, it was very fitting and appropriate for Paul to emphasise faith as the key when contrasting it to the OT law which was "not of faith".

Alaska
Aug 23rd 2008, 07:51 PM
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.
This is pertaining to works of the law to earn favore with God, which proves you have no faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
:22 See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
This is pertaining to works of faith because you have favore with God, and to prove you have faith.


To earn it after the OT system is contrasted with the NT system where upon faith and repentance the believer is born again and is given a change of heart so that there can be no boasting with regard to the required works done by him. The OT didn't have the new birth and new man. That could only come by the death and resurrection of the Son.

So, it is not that works aren't required in the NT along with faith for justification, it is rather that the necessary works are not of themselves lest they boast, for it is God that works in them through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost to both will and do of his good pleasure.

Friend of I AM
Aug 23rd 2008, 07:54 PM
Justification by grace or justification by works?

I agree with the former, as it says in Romans 4. However, it says in James 2:21 that Abraham was justified by works; where as Romans 4:3 says it was accounted to Him righteousness by faith.

I've always had problems with James - I've never gotten along with it. I can't figure out why but perhaps it's because it's directed towards an audience that felt content to sit back and do nothing.

Obviously God cannot lie and He doesn't contradict Himself; but I always tend to have problems with scripture colliding with each other.

Anybody that can help clear this up? Thanks!

James 2:12
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Grace. "Mercy triumphs/rejoices against judgement" as stated above. No one is saved other than by Grace/mercy of God given by Christ Jesus. So James is in agreement with Paul.

JesusMySavior
Aug 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
brothers, who cares what camp you are in or what title you hold.

I just want to know why James said this and why it collides with Romans 4:3. Thank you!

timmyb
Aug 23rd 2008, 09:10 PM
to say that God's word contradicts itself is nothing short of blasphemous

to separate good works away from grace is error and a false teaching of grace...

if a verse collides with another then your problem is with your interpretation... let the word speak for itself... it means what it says... it's not that complicated... the worst thing you can do with scripture is to over spiritualize it because that's the perfect breeding ground for many of the false doctrines that have been adopted in the church

JesusMySavior
Aug 24th 2008, 02:46 AM
If I were to sit back and think about what this means, I will say that what I believe is still true, it's just hard to associate it with these scriptures.

Salvation from God is by grace alone - we cannot accept His gift on our own will, either. It is a choice - but God grants you the offer and gives you the grace to repent of your sins.

The works that we do are out of love to our Heavenly Father - it's not to "get right" with Him, (i.e. legalism).

The "works" described in James are the fruits of the Spirit, namely "love" where he talks about not helping a cold and hungry brother or sister. True faith in Christ produces works, as Christ has said "Abide in Me, the True Vine, and you will produce fruit".

So I'm not worried about my salvation - I love God and through His grace I participate in these works on a daily basis. I just couldn't figure out why these scriptures were errantly colliding with each other.

And timmyb, to say that I'm being blasphemous by questioning scripture because it collides with another scripture is very unruly and uncalled for on your part. I guess from your point of view every time that I didn't understand God, questioned Him, or wondered why He does what He does, I was blaspheming Him. What a ridiculous claim. I forgive you but please think about this.

*shrugs* two different books written by different guys at different time periods to different people. It's still the Word of God but one has to take it in context, I s'pose.

Diolectic
Aug 24th 2008, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Diolectic
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.
This is pertaining to works of the law to earn favore with God, which proves you have no faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
:22 See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
This is pertaining to works of faith because you have favore with God, and to prove you have faithTo earn it after the OT system is contrasted with the NT system where upon faith and repentance the believer is born again and is given a change of heart so that there can be no boasting with regard to the required works done by him. The OT didn't have the new birth and new man. That could only come by the death and resurrection of the Son.Obedidiance(the required works) is nothing to boast in.
Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How could any one boast in their reasonable dervice?
Example:
"Ha ha, I am so great, I did what I was suposed to do in the first place.
I am so good. I have done what is expected of me, that which was my duty."
This is rediculous!

BroRog
Aug 24th 2008, 03:46 AM
The OT didn't have the new birth and new man.

Actually, it did. Recall that when Nicodemus questioned Jesus about being born again, Jesus said, Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?" The clear implication is that had Nicodemus been reading his Bible right, he would have already understood about being born again. Eventually Nick would get it, but Jesus had to open up the scriptures to him first.

Jerry4America
Aug 24th 2008, 03:52 AM
Actually, it did. Recall that when Nicodemus questioned Jesus about being born again, Jesus said, Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?" The clear implication is that had Nicodemus been reading his Bible right, he would have already understood about being born again. Eventually Nick would get it, but Jesus had to open up the scriptures to him first.I agree with Alaska. No where in the OT was anyone BORN AGAIN through the blood of Jesus Christ. Nicodemus didn't know about it, because nobody before Christ knew about it.

SIG
Aug 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
JMS--When verses like these seem to contradict, I would suggest that God is underlining them for you, so you can reach a clearer understanding. Press on!

Emanate
Aug 24th 2008, 06:50 AM
Odd how we as people became offended that someone dare tell us how to act, even if it be God in by Word.


Faith without Works is dead.

Alaska
Aug 24th 2008, 06:52 AM
Obedidiance(the required works) is nothing to boast in.
Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How could any one boast in their reasonable dervice?
Example:
"Ha ha, I am so great, I did what I was suposed to do in the first place.
I am so good. I have done what is expected of me, that which was my duty."
This is rediculous!

Exactly, and Paul emphasises that our obedience is not something that is of ourselves (lest we should boast). He reflects this in numerous ways in the NT.
Like when he said:

2 Cor. 3:
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament

Eph. 2:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Cor. 1:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Php 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Cor. 15:
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Heb. 4:
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Col. 1:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

BroRog
Aug 24th 2008, 06:59 AM
I agree with Alaska. No where in the OT was anyone BORN AGAIN through the blood of Jesus Christ. Nicodemus didn't know about it, because nobody before Christ knew about it.

You sound like you doubt Jesus.

Bryan43
Aug 24th 2008, 12:36 PM
I
didn't call you a fundamentalist, I called MYSELF one back in the day. Fundamentalists believe that EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE HAS TO MATCH.

I am not a fundamentalist. Yet I believe this. actually I know it. God can not contradict himself. All things must match. The bible can never contradict itself. If we find a contradiction, we must resolve the contradiction.



In Romans 4, Paul denies that Abraham was justified by doing the works of Torah, the Law of Moses. So I think I am agreeing with Diolectic on this. I will not provide the supporting argument in this post. Perhaps later.


The torah, or law, was not even given in barahams time. thus to say or even imply Abraham was not saved by the works of the torah would be an insult to anyones intelligence. No jew would have thought Abraham, who they claim to be their father, was saved by the law. because they knew he had not even recieved it yet.



I agree with Alaska. No where in the OT was anyone BORN AGAIN through the blood of Jesus Christ. Nicodemus didn't know about it, because nobody before Christ knew about it.


I must agree with the other. Jesus did say he should have known. Even Paul told timothy he knew from a child by reading scripture how to be saved. This was before the NT had even been written.

As for James vs romans.

If one takes James in context they would realise something. The people james spoke to were hearers of the word only. They were proud. They gave favoritism to the rich. who outside would go against them. they basically lived like the world. They showed no sign of true repentance.

What james was telling them is since they had no works that showed the fruit of their true repentance. they had a dead faith. or no faith at all. Because if they had true faith. they would have had the works that proved it. ( remember John the baptist demanding the pharisees show proof of their repentance before he would baptise them?)

As for paul, he agreed. In eph, he stated we are saved by grace through faith only. Not because of any personal work we have done. lest any of us should be proud ( same in rom 4. If Abraham justified by works, he can boast)

yet in eph 2: 10 he shows what james was talking about.

For we were created ( those who are saved ) FOR GOOD WORKS.

If you say you have faith. and you say you repented, but have no works. your a liar. you have a "dead" faith, or no faith at all.

this is what James was saying.

has nothing at all to do with the torah. it is ALL works.

Paul said if it is grace it is NOT works. otherwise grace is cancelled out.

He also called many fools, because they claim they were saved by the spirit. but were trying to perfect that salvation by works of the flesh.

hope this helps

timmyb
Aug 24th 2008, 01:35 PM
Note the early church had an extensive waiting period before baptizing and accepting new believers... i believe that this was to see if their conversion was real that there were real signs of repentance... They were not in a hurry to baptize new believers... they knew that there had to be a visible change in the nature of a person's behavior... Hebrews says to continue in your sin after you receive the knowledge of the truth insults the spirit of grace that we all have been given as believers