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deafwriter
Aug 23rd 2008, 10:26 PM
I know a few people who live homosexual lives and still claim to be Christian. Can anyone give me scripture to defeat or encourage this mindset? What are they thinking? Will God allow homosexuals in heaven?:hmm:

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:19 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

divaD
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:19 PM
I know a few people who live homosexual lives and still claim to be Christian. Can anyone give me scripture to defeat or encourage this mindset? What are they thinking? Will God allow homosexuals in heaven?:hmm:



This question seems to make it's rounds in here. Lev 18 defines homosexuality for us. It is an abomination. Will God allow homosexuals in heaven? Of couse not, unless they have repented of it and stopped committing the act. But if that were to happen, they would no longer be homosexuals. It's pretty clear to me that your questions are in regards to practising homosexuals.


Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29*For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.


Verse 22 tells us that it's an abomination. But I also threw these other verses in here in order to make a point. Take notice of verse 23. If a Christian admitted to practicing the acts recorded in verse 23, would you even think that person was a Christian? Would you even think that God would let this person into heaven? If you are honest with yourself, you would know the answer to both of these questions would be no. So why would God let someone that commits the acts of Lev 18:22 into heaven, but not one who commits the acts of Lev 18:23 into heaven? They are both abominations are they not?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the ABOMINABLE, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh ABOMINATION, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nyoka
Aug 24th 2008, 12:17 AM
I don't know if they are Christian or not as I can't see their hearts as God can. I do know what God thinks about the act of homosexuality though: Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

I hope this helps. God bless:D

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 01:19 AM
What are they thinking?

They are in denial.
The Scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is an abomination, and that the people who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think it is an absolute tragedy that these people are so willing to fool themselves, and willingly blind themselves to the truth, so that they won't have to put away their sin...just so they can indulge in the desires of the flesh. They will ignore their conscience on this point so that they won't feel condemned.

Rom. 1:26-28 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise, also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting

What these people need is for God-fearing men and women to reach out to them in love, letting them know that God loves them, but that He will not tolerate their sin, and that they are condemned.

So many Christians are quick to condemn them for their actions, but seemingly neglect the fact that God loves these people, and suffered the same agonizing death for their sin as He did for ours. :cry: I honestly believe that this is one of the areas where Christians need to improve their witnessing technique. It can be particularly hard to witness to them, just because so many Christians have such a personal abasement for homosexuality.

Many homosexuals will argue that the urges they feel are completely natural, and thus, not their choice, but is just part of their nature. They are only half-correct, in that it is part of their nature....their sin nature. Even so, homosexual activity is a choice, just as committing sin is a choice for any person.

Christianity is a commitment to live by the law of God; in that respect, one can logically deduce that those who engage in homosexuality are not Christians, despite how they will try to justify it.

OldChurchGuy
Aug 24th 2008, 01:34 AM
This question seems to make it's rounds in here. Lev 18 defines homosexuality for us. It is an abomination. Will God allow homosexuals in heaven? Of couse not, unless they have repented of it and stopped committing the act. But if that were to happen, they would no longer be homosexuals. It's pretty clear to me that your questions are in regards to practising homosexuals.


Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29*For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.


Verse 22 tells us that it's an abomination. But I also threw these other verses in here in order to make a point. Take notice of verse 23. If a Christian admitted to practicing the acts recorded in verse 23, would you even think that person was a Christian? Would you even think that God would let this person into heaven? If you are honest with yourself, you would know the answer to both of these questions would be no. So why would God let someone that commits the acts of Lev 18:22 into heaven, but not one who commits the acts of Lev 18:23 into heaven? They are both abominations are they not?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the ABOMINABLE, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh ABOMINATION, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This question is directed to everyone responding to this post:

Is it correct to conclude it is impossible that a persons sexual orientation could be genetic rather than environment?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 01:43 AM
This question is directed to everyone responding to this post:

Is it correct to conclude it is impossible that a persons sexual orientation could be genetic rather than environment?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

I know I am in the minority here, but I do believe firmly that there are some people who are born with homosexual tendencies. I've heard stories from many homosexuals saying that they felt attracted to the same sex from a very early age, so I do believe that there is a chance that homosexuality is genetic.....even so, that does not make it any less an abomination, or a sin.

When Adam sinned, humanity was cursed. The effects of sin entered into every aspect of humanity, and I see no reason to doubt that homosexuality has a biological aspect; after all, we are all biologically destined to die, whereas before the Fall, there was no death....our physical tendencies were definitely affected.

That being said, I also believe that God gave man the capacity to know that it is wrong....and why.

If a person is born with homosexual tendencies, God is perfectly able to help a person overcome those tendencies....and for those who do, I believe a special victor's crown will await them in glory.

livingwaters
Aug 24th 2008, 01:44 AM
Oldchurchguy, if God didn't know what HE was doing with us before we were in our mother's womb, then I guess the Bible is fiction. I mean, after all, the Word says, HE knows all things, HE knew us before we were in our mother's womb. I seriously doubt, that since HIS thoughts towards us are all good, that HE would have messed up innocent children with mixed gender genes. Amen.

Those that claim it is genetic, are calling God a liar!!! God does not create abominations, satan, through people does!!!

God Bless~~~~:)

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 01:57 AM
Oldchurchguy, if God didn't know what HE was doing with us before we were in our mother's womb, then I guess the Bible is fiction. I mean, after all, the Word says, HE knows all things, HE knew us before we were in our mother's womb. I seriously doubt, that since HIS thoughts towards us are all good, that HE would have messed up innocent children with mixed gender genes. Amen.

Those that claim it is genetic, are calling God a liar!!! God does not create abominations, satan, through people does!!!

God Bless~~~~:)

So, then, do you believe that the Christian struggling with homosexuality chooses to struggle?

Yes, God knew us before we were formed in the womb, and He was the one who fashioned us in the womb; even so, this does not mean that people cannot be born flawed.

The truth is, because of Adam's sin, creation is flawed on every level. Birth defects and mental retardation exist because of the Fall.
If you don't believe there is some sort of biological aspect there, then what do you feel contributes to these unnatural drives and tendencies?

scourge39
Aug 24th 2008, 01:59 AM
The distinction is between Christians who genuinely struggle with homosexual desires and don't act upon them and those who simply say, 'That's how I am,' and indulge their urges. The latter group is living in sin, while the former is acknowledging a genuine temptation, but not yielding to it.

Athanasius
Aug 24th 2008, 02:11 AM
You have to be extremely careful to differentiate between the disposition and the act. Homosexual acts are an abomination, having the disposition - as long as it isn't acted upon - isn't.

Slug1
Aug 24th 2008, 02:17 AM
Romans 1:26-32


26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. I underlined portions of this quoted scripture. I'll let the Holy Spirit convict as God wills but IMO if a person is not convicted then they don't have the Holy Spirit and their claim of Christianity is to a god of their own design (one who accepts this sin) and not God who IS, who does not accept this sin, or any sin. Any Christian who believes in God and not "a god - just an Idol" will be convicted of this sin and allow God to heal then and deliver them of this sin. Just as a Christian allows any sin to be delivered of by God as they are obedient to God's will and what He's says is sin or not sin.



28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:26-32&multilayout=cols&version1=31&version2=50#fen-NIV-en-NKJV-27954a)] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:26-32&multilayout=cols&version1=31&version2=50#fen-NIV-en-NKJV-27956b)] unmerciful;This is what happens to those who worship their god and not God who IS.


32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.This is the result of not worshiping God who IS and continuing to worship their god who isn't.

To me this scripture even points out what will happen to Christians who accept this sin as "not" a sin even if they are not bound by it. Just to be friends with a person who is homosexual and not to witness to them constantly... then what kind of friend are you (general statement, not directed "at" you). To me it would be the same as handing the car keys to a friend who is drunk.

"Deserving of Death"... IMO will be judged by God who IS and then tossed in the fire with all other sinners and didn't repent. SO NO, we will not see these people in heaven for eternity.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 02:25 AM
Romans 1:26-32

I underlined portions of this quoted scripture. I'll let the Holy Spirit convict as God wills but IMO if a person is not convicted then they don't have the Holy Spirit and their claim of Christianity is to a god of their own design (one who accepts this sin) and not God who IS, who does not accept this sin, or any sin. Any Christian who believes in God and not "a god - just an Idol" will be convicted of this sin and allow God to heal then and deliver them of this sin. Just as a Christian allows any sin to be delivered of by God as they are obedient to God's will and what He's says is sin or not sin.


This is what happens to those who worship their god and not God who IS.

This is the result of not worshiping God who IS and continuing to worship their god who isn't.

To me this scripture even points out what will happen to Christians who accept this sin as "not" a sin even if they are not bound by it. Just to be friends with a person who is homosexual and not to witness to them constantly... then what kind of friend are you (general statement, not directed "at" you). To me it would be the same as handing the car keys to a friend who is drunk.

"Deserving of Death"... IMO will be judged by God who IS and then tossed in the fire with all other sinners and didn't repent. SO NO, we will not see these people in heaven for eternity.


AMEN to all of this. You speak the truth!!!!

Invincibleep
Aug 24th 2008, 02:38 AM
Hi everyone, great discussion. I'm new here and would like to give my input. First let me say, that ofcourse, I agree with Scripture as put forth by the members of the board. However, one of my dearest friends from my youth up was a homosexual male with very effeminate traits. In fact, later in life he, who considered himself, 'transexual' I think it is, i.e. a woman trapped in a effeminate male's body would go and get the operation.
Now, as a believer of course, I loved and love him as a friend. We were all reared in the church, his family is loving, God/Revering, middle class hardworking. He was reared with these values. In fact, we considered him just one of the girls. Now, during the course of our youth when we would talk about his 'struggle', he at one point came to the conclusion that he was just born an effeminate male. He really did think it out in light of what Scripture said. He even once told me that in high school, 'he did have a crush on a girl.' In so saying, he showed me that he could or should have went that route and it would have knocked out the other. That's theory talking ;there ofcourse. Speaking of which, I've always thought of the 'eunuch' factor and male homosexuality. I mean, maybe they were supposed to be 'eunuchs'. There is a Scripture that says, some men were born eunuchs, others were made eunuchs etc. Anyway food for thought as to how that relates to the 'effeminate homosexual male.'

Bottom line, we all know the danger of depravity and how it often times attaches itself to those of a homosexual nature. Satan's playground, if you will. We see many youth being attracted to that lifestyle simply because it is hurled all over the place. That is the danger of it all. Satan himself is a homosexual. He's reared false religions to be 'women-hating, repressed homosexuals. Just look at the middle easterns to see that's true.

Yet, Ggd is Love and that love extends to those struggling with and/or practicing homosexuality. Some of the sweetest, dearest people, such as my friend can't just be ostracized or they will never come to Christ. We all know homosexuals and their families so what should be the Christian's response? Just look on them as people. People who Christ loves and died for. Quit labelling their conduct and address their humanity. Show Christian love and charity to them while at the same time telling them. but not beating them over the head, with what the word says.

That's what I did, I just loved the sinner while hating the sin. I explained to him that 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' My struggle wasn't homosexuality but Lord knows I have struggled with other things. As so, I had the wisdom to diminish the 'sin' as 'sin' and highlight our common humanity and Christ's love for us all.

So I guess what I am saying is, just treat people like 'people' and not like a sexual disorientation and the Love of God will shine through. Afterall, homosexuals are people too so let's treat them like that.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 24th 2008, 04:22 AM
This question is directed to everyone responding to this post:

Is it correct to conclude it is impossible that a persons sexual orientation could be genetic rather than environment?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Sure it's genetic. Sin has been passed down to us all. If we all decend from Adam? The thing is we must not fulfill that lust of the flesh. We all have our thorn in the flesh.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 04:51 AM
This question is directed to everyone responding to this post:

Is it correct to conclude it is impossible that a persons sexual orientation could be genetic rather than environment?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

To be honest, the genetic or biological predisposition to being a homosexual is irrelevant for both sides involved. Even if biology influences a person's preference, it hardly justifies the act of homosexuality. Some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism - doesn't mean they're justified in being alcoholics.

Thus, even if our genes or biology predisposes us to homosexuality, it's still our choice to act on it.

divaD
Aug 24th 2008, 05:38 PM
To be honest, the genetic or biological predisposition to being a homosexual is irrelevant for both sides involved. Even if biology influences a person's preference, it hardly justifies the act of homosexuality. Some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism - doesn't mean they're justified in being alcoholics.

Thus, even if our genes or biology predisposes us to homosexuality, it's still our choice to act on it.



Yes, and homosexuality is a choice, it's not something a man or woman has to do in order to survive. One needs to consider why this act would be an abomination unto the Lord. Did not God bless man and tell him to multiply? What would have happened during those days if 99% of the people decided to become gay? How would this world have ever became populated with humans?

The solution is simple. If a man or a woman does not feel attracted to the opposite sex, then don't be attracted to any sex, including those of one's own gender. It is not a sin to be celebate, but it is an abomination to engage in acts such as homosexuality, unless somehow God has changed His mind about this act. Of course then, someone would have to show in Scriptures that God no longer sees this act as an abomination, and that one could then continue to engage in this act and still inherit the kingdom of God.

I happen to have 3 sisters, 2 of them are gay. So it's not like I'm against gay people. I just have to go by what the Word of God declares. Also, 17-18 yrs ago, I had 2 business partners, they both were gay. During that time, my wife and I broke up for about 5 months unrelated to me working with these gay men. My 2 business partners let me stay with them during that time. But this didn't make me gay because I was staying in there home for awhile. One of these men sometimes went to a gay church. He was clearly messed up. IOW, that church wasn't doing him a bit of good. He was being taught that he could be both gay and a Christian.

What is more important, not hurting the feelings of a gay person by telling them it's ok to be gay and that God still loves them anyway, or telling them the truth, that it is an abomination, an abomination that will end them in hell? My Bible tells me that it is truth that sets one free.

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 05:59 PM
i seriously cannot believe you all call yourselves Christians. YES YES YES homosexuals can go to heaven. their sin is NO different from anyone elses sin. I found this interesting...


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I guess you don't like verse 11? But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Or did you all for get about this verse, granted i know it is hard to find and buried deep in scripture.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I guess this means except for homosexuals?

YoungLink
Aug 24th 2008, 06:19 PM
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I guess this means except for homosexuals?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Jesus' sacrifice isn't for homosexuals. Yes Jesus died for homosexual people too, but they can't carry on the lifestyle afterwards, they need to repent.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 06:25 PM
i seriously cannot believe you all call yourselves Christians. YES YES YES homosexuals can go to heaven. their sin is NO different from anyone elses sin. I found this interesting...



I guess you don't like verse 11? But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Or did you all for get about this verse, granted i know it is hard to find and buried deep in scripture.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I guess this means except for homosexuals?

No one is suggesting that those who engage in homosexuality can't eventually come to Christ. Likewise, no one is suggesting that someone who engages in homosexual activities, albeit with a heavy heart and giving into sin, also isn't saved. What we're saying is someone that is an unrepentant homosexual and doesn't see it as a sin simply is not a Christian - the same goes for a Christian that is promiscuous. Prior to coming to Christ I was promiscuous - my sin was just as bad as homosexuality since both violated God's intended purpose for sex within marriage.

At the same time, I eventually came to Christ and repented.

divaD
Aug 24th 2008, 06:28 PM
I guess you don't like verse 11? But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


If you are going to quote a verse, perhaps you should quote it in it's entirerity. Notce the part you left out. "And such were some of you:", as in they weren't this anymore, IOW they repented of these deeds. The idea was to not go back to the former self, and to put the deeds of the former self in the past. Why? Because these were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God.
The verse reads like this:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 06:38 PM
. One of these men sometimes went to a gay church. He was clearly messed up. IOW, that church wasn't doing him a bit of good. He was being taught that he could be both gay and a Christian.

My heart sunk when I read this. That is really, really sad.....and if that man dies and ends up in hell for his sin, God will hold that church accountable, no doubt!!!!!

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 06:45 PM
To everyone...even an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian. Do you all not realize that sin is sin? We repent our sins to God when we pray because we know we ALL live in sin..all the time. homosexuality is no different from obesity or alcoholism. Are alcoholic Christians? What about the obese?

I do not agree with homosexuality, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or being a Christian.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 06:50 PM
To everyone...even an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian. Do you all not realize that sin is sin? We repent our sins to God when we pray because we know we ALL live in sin..all the time. homosexuality is no different from obesity or alcoholism. Are alcoholic Christians? What about the obese?

I do not agree with homosexuality, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or being a Christian.

Actually....it is different. Not all sins are the same, some sins are worse than others. There is nothing in the Scripture that says all sins are the same.

I would argue that one who lives a lifestyle of gluttony (it's not a sin to be obese, it's a sin to be a glutton...get it right) or a lifestyle of alcoholism simply is unrepentant and, therefore, never had a heart for God. That is, the person wasn't saved.

What you're arguing is that someone can be an unrepentant serial killer and still be a Christian. Essentially, you're arguing everyone is a Christian and no one goes to Hell. Is that what you believe? Do you believe every human being is saved?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 24th 2008, 06:54 PM
To everyone...even an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian.


We repent our sins to God when we pray because we know we ALL live in sin

So, then, if this is true, how can you say that an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian? This seems like a contradiction to me.

On what Scriptural evidence do you base this, because according to my Bible, practicing homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 07:18 PM
I would argue that one who lives a lifestyle of gluttony or a lifestyle of alcoholism simply is unrepentant and, therefore, never had a heart for God. That is, the person wasn't saved.


No, they simply do not yet have the discipline to stop there detrimental activities.


What you're arguing is that someone can be an unrepentant serial killer and still be a Christian.

Maybe unrepentant is the wrong word to be using here. Because i could kill someone and repent and i would receive forgiveness. I would say stubborn defiance might be better. By this i mean that a serail killer might struggle with an impulse but not have the ability to stop, yet if they seek Christ they will be forgiven even if they cannot stop their impulsive actions. but a serail killer who is a "Christian" that turns their back on God in stubborn defiance would have rejected Christ therefore they would go to hell along with everyone else who rejects Christ.


Essentially, you're arguing everyone is a Christian and no one goes to Hell. Is that what you believe? Do you believe every human being is saved?

No

divaD
Aug 24th 2008, 07:28 PM
To everyone...even an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian. Do you all not realize that sin is sin? We repent our sins to God when we pray because we know we ALL live in sin..all the time. homosexuality is no different from obesity or alcoholism. Are alcoholic Christians? What about the obese?

I do not agree with homosexuality, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or being a Christian.



Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What do you do with these verses? Look at all the great deeds these people professed to have done, yet Christ doesn't even know them. I wonder why John 3:16, or even Romans 10:9 didn't have them covered? And I'm supposed to believe that persons who continually engage in abominable acts, such as homosexuality, that these will still inherit the kingdom of God, while these in Matt 7 won't? Why should I believe that when the Bible indicates otherwise?

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 07:34 PM
So, then, if this is true, how can you say that an unrepentant homosexual can be a Christian? This seems like a contradiction to me.

I explained this in my previous post...unrepentant is not the correct term to be using, stubborn defiance is better. In other words if you do not seek Gods help in beating your homosexuality then you are turning your back on God.


On what Scriptural evidence do you base this, because according to my Bible, practicing homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you are talking about 1 corinthians then neither do the covetous. We all covet once in a while. So if you covet once a week, and a homosexual has sex once a week...which one is worse?

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 07:45 PM
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What do you do with these verses? Look at all the great deeds these people professed to have done, yet Christ doesn't even know them. I wonder why John 3:16, or even Romans 10:9 didn't have them covered? And I'm supposed to believe that persons who continually engage in abominable acts, such as homosexuality, that these will still inherit the kingdom of God, while these in Matt 7 won't? Why should I believe that when the Bible indicates otherwise?

This passage has nothing to do with it...to me it is clear that this passage is speaking about people that are just going through the motions, or people that are doing this "God" thing for their own gain. I would be willing to bet that MANY ministers and church leaders fall into this category today.

but using this passage i have a question for you...

what is the will of the father?

OldChurchGuy
Aug 24th 2008, 08:49 PM
To be honest, the genetic or biological predisposition to being a homosexual is irrelevant for both sides involved. Even if biology influences a person's preference, it hardly justifies the act of homosexuality. Some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism - doesn't mean they're justified in being alcoholics.

Thus, even if our genes or biology predisposes us to homosexuality, it's still our choice to act on it.

You make a good point. Granted, the research is still unclear if homosexuality is genetic or not.

But you raise an interesting question in my simple mind. Where is the line drawn between a genetic predispotion and a genetic situation such as Downs Syndrome. Can one say that a person with Downs Syndrome has a choice?

Confused but willing to learn,

OldChurchGuy

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 24th 2008, 09:07 PM
i seriously cannot believe you all call yourselves Christians. YES YES YES homosexuals can go to heaven. their sin is NO different from anyone elses sin. I found this interesting...



I guess you don't like verse 11? But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Or did you all for get about this verse, granted i know it is hard to find and buried deep in scripture.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I guess this means except for homosexuals?

I see that somehow my scripture ,which was not my words but the Bible's, set off this powder keg. I also see that others have posted some good comments to defend this scripture so I don't think I need to add anything to it since they have summed up my thoughts as well.

Another thing I see is you have backed off a little to say that those who are stubbornly defiant will not go to Heaven. I will comment on that. Although I posted such a hard verse of scripture I too agree that a homosexual can be saved? Can they continue to be homosexuals afterwards? No. Just as I can't continue to look at porn anymore.

Walk therefore in the Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 24th 2008, 09:32 PM
No, they simply do not yet have the discipline to stop there detrimental activities.



Maybe unrepentant is the wrong word to be using here. Because i could kill someone and repent and i would receive forgiveness. I would say stubborn defiance might be better. By this i mean that a serail killer might struggle with an impulse but not have the ability to stop, yet if they seek Christ they will be forgiven even if they cannot stop their impulsive actions. but a serail killer who is a "Christian" that turns their back on God in stubborn defiance would have rejected Christ therefore they would go to hell along with everyone else who rejects Christ.



No

I see in another topic about the Holy Spirit you said that the Spirit basically tells us "WWJD". So let's use the WWJD scenario in this topic. What did Jesus do to the woman caught in the act of adultery??? I'm sure you know the story but let's find out what He did...

John 8
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus forgave her of her sins and then told her to go and do what??? Sin no more. What a novel idea. He told her not to stay in the same state that she was in but to change for the better and sin no more.

Why don't we apply this to homosexuality? Let's tell them that they can be forgiven just like everyone else that has come to Christ but then we must tell them that they are commanded to sin no more just as Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 24th 2008, 09:34 PM
You make a good point. Granted, the research is still unclear if homosexuality is genetic or not.

But you raise an interesting question in my simple mind. Where is the line drawn between a genetic predispotion and a genetic situation such as Downs Syndrome. Can one say that a person with Downs Syndrome has a choice?

Confused but willing to learn,

OldChurchGuy

A genetic disposition means something causes you to desire something or desire to act in a certain fashion. Down's Syndrome is a genetic defect, meaning an extra chromosome has been found that affects the growth of the brain. In a disposition, one merely prefers one thing over the other or is more susceptible to disease and so on. Down's Syndrome, as it is, is merely a condition.

One cannot choose to have Down's Syndrome as it is something that affects the growth of the brain and the body. Homosexuality, however, might have genetic roots, but a homosexual can choose not to have sex or not to lust. He may not be able to choose who he likes or who he is attracted to, but he can certainly choose whether or not to act on this attraction.

edaps7
Aug 24th 2008, 09:36 PM
Can they continue to be homosexuals afterwards? No. Just as I can't continue to look at porn anymore.


this is where we differ. Although i agree they SHOULD no longer be homosexuals i realize it isnt that easy. I think as long as the are making efforts and truly trying to defeat their impulses they are fine.

Let me give you an example that might make it more clear. Lets say a homosexual turns his life over to Christ and no longer sleeps with men. He does this for 3 years, but in a moment of weakness submits to his flesh and has sex. this man dies the next day in a car accident. I do not believe just becasue he had a moment of weakness he is going to hell.

Renzo
Aug 24th 2008, 09:58 PM
Just want to put in my two cents real quick. If a "scientist" claims to have proof that genetics control our sexual desires, he is obviously being swayed by liberal media, pressure, etc. Just like the "scientists" who claim evolution occured rather than creation. Anything people can do to take God out of science and life, they will argue until blue in the face. Why would God put some people at a disadvantage to achieve afterlife in heaven by handicapping them with a sexual desire that He calls "an abomination"?

divaD
Aug 24th 2008, 11:12 PM
This passage has nothing to do with it...to me it is clear that this passage is speaking about people that are just going through
the motions, or people that are doing this "God" thing for their own gain. I would be willing to bet that MANY ministers and
church leaders fall into this category today.


How do you claim this passage has nothing to do with it? Aren't the ones in this passage claiming to be Christians? Aren't there many gay people that claim to be Christians, yet continue being gay, even tho the Bible has declared it an abomination?
An abomination unto whom? Unto God. That's the point. It is an abomination unto God. Not only is God creator, He is also judge. If the Word of God declares it an abomination unto God, then it's an abomination unto God. This means that God utterely despises this
particular act. When God designed man, this wasn't one of the designs that He put into man. This is why He made both male and female. They were made for each other. God did not make man for man nor woman for woman.




but using this passage i have a question for you...

what is the will of the father?


I'm not certain I follow your question as pertaining to this passage. Verse 21 tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So is it the will of the Father that some be gay, some be liars, some be murderers, some be thieves, some be fornicators, etc? One can argue that Jesus paid the price for all of these sins and even others. He sure did, I won't argue with that. But He didn't pay the price in order that we would continue in these sins.

Let's say that you had a child that got into deep trouble, and it cost you plenty to get this child out of trouble. Did you pay this price in order to get the child out of trouble, or did you pay this price in order that the child could remain in trouble? If you can even begin to understand this, then apply this to the price Christ paid in order to get us out of trouble with the Father and to keep us out of trouble.

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 02:56 AM
How do you claim this passage has nothing to do with it? That's the point. It is an abomination unto God.

I already explained that this passage is talking about people just going through the motion as christians...

Example: Someone that goes to church every sunday, then goes to their job where they strive to make alot of money, drives the $70,000 car and the big house, they tell everyone about the church they go to for social clout, and take their kids to all the church functions. The only problem is that they never actually listen in church. Gay or not this passage has nothing to do with homosexuality or even sin. It has to do with people that arent seeking Christ they are only seeking status, acceptance, etc. from other people not God


I'm not certain I follow your question as pertaining to this passage. Verse 21 tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus tell us what the will of the father...Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40ALL THE LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The will of the father is that we Love God and love our neighbors DESPITE THEIR FAULTS. Do you think Jesus was talking about conditional love here? The problem here is the way people view sin, it is very simple if you actually let yourself see. Sin has NOTHING to do with the actual actions and EVERYTHING to do with resulting consequences of the actions. God knows the consequences to each action and this is why he warns us against certain action more severely than others.

Let me give you an illustration that might help. My 2 yr old daughter comes into the kitchen while I am cooking and asks "daddy can i touch the hot stove" I say "absolutely not!" why would i respond so forcefully? Becasue i know the impending consequences of her touching the stove, i know she will be burned, and it will hurt her. It will also hurt me to see her in pain, therefore i tell her no. If she doesnt listen and goes ahead and touches the stove will i love her any less? of course not, i will still love her exactly the same and i will help her clean her wounds and bandage her up. However she now has to live with the consequences of her actions. These consequences are what God is trying to protect us against, NOT the actions, they are irrelevant.

So in the instance of homosexuality God knows all of the emotional baggage, social rejection, disease, family issues, etc. etc. etc. that come along with it. God knows homosexuality is one of the most damaging actions people can choose, so he sees it as an abomination.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 25th 2008, 11:19 AM
Jesus tell us what the will of the father...Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40ALL THE LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The will of the father is that we Love God and love our neighbors DESPITE THEIR FAULTS. Do you think Jesus was talking about conditional love here? The problem here is the way people view sin, it is very simple if you actually let yourself see. Sin has NOTHING to do with the actual actions and EVERYTHING to do with resulting consequences of the actions. God knows the consequences to each action and this is why he warns us against certain action more severely than others.

Let me give you an illustration that might help. My 2 yr old daughter comes into the kitchen while I am cooking and asks "daddy can i touch the hot stove" I say "absolutely not!" why would i respond so forcefully? Becasue i know the impending consequences of her touching the stove, i know she will be burned, and it will hurt her. It will also hurt me to see her in pain, therefore i tell her no. If she doesnt listen and goes ahead and touches the stove will i love her any less? of course not, i will still love her exactly the same and i will help her clean her wounds and bandage her up. However she now has to live with the consequences of her actions. These consequences are what God is trying to protect us against, NOT the actions, they are irrelevant.

So in the instance of homosexuality God knows all of the emotional baggage, social rejection, disease, family issues, etc. etc. etc. that come along with it. God knows homosexuality is one of the most damaging actions people can choose, so he sees it as an abomination.

Yes, Jesus did give us the 2 greatest commandments in the Law but you must harmonize it with the other passages of scripture. Paul tells us this in 1 Corinthians...

Chapter 5

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

See Paul here is telling us to not even eat with someone who calls themselves a "brother" but is sexually immoral (which includes any sexual sin)...etc. He also tells us that we are to judge those inside the church and leave the judgment of the world to God. Here is the problem with the church today. We will not make a judgment for fear of offending someone but that is not what the Bible tells us to do. That is why there is so much corruption (sin) in the church today. No one is preaching against it so everyone thinks it must be OK since the preacher isn't condemning sin. We have been caught up in the "judge not lest ye be judged" mentality which is taken out of context anyway.

YoungLink
Aug 25th 2008, 11:30 AM
Let me give you an example that might make it more clear. Lets say a homosexual turns his life over to Christ and no longer sleeps with men. He does this for 3 years, but in a moment of weakness submits to his flesh and has sex. this man dies the next day in a car accident. I do not believe just becasue he had a moment of weakness he is going to hell.
That isn't the idea that people are against, your example actually shows repentance. Yes, we all fail sometimes, no one is suggesting that a homosexual person's failure is any different to a heterosexual person's.

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 02:11 PM
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."


First off Paul is trying to keep the early stages of a church pure from anything that might trip them up. There was MUCH more at stake back then with the church in corinth. I dont think we have to worry about the church falling apart overnight like he did back then. He is basically saying it is better to dump these people in the street than risk the church. But he is NOT saying to turn your back on them.


See Paul here is telling us to not even eat with someone who calls themselves a "brother" but is sexually immoral (which includes any sexual sin)...etc. He also tells us that we are to judge those inside the church and leave the judgment of the world to God. Here is the problem with the church today. We will not make a judgment for fear of offending someone but that is not what the Bible tells us to do. That is why there is so much corruption (sin) in the church today. No one is preaching against it so everyone thinks it must be OK since the preacher isn't condemning sin. We have been caught up in the "judge not lest ye be judged" mentality which is taken out of context anywayFunny thing here is that i Agree, i do not hold to the notion of "judge not lest ye be judged". I believe each person should be confronted and held accountable for their actions. But what does this really mean? hold them accountable once? twice? twenty times? then get rid of them? No it means never give up on them becasue one day they might actually wise up and get straight (ha! literally and figuratively).

Tis isnt the issue i have a problem with, it was that people were saying homosexuals wouldnt go to heaven and they werent christians. These things simply arent true, and it is becasue of these un-truths that people running FROM the church and not TO the church in droves.

Athanasius
Aug 25th 2008, 02:27 PM
First off Paul is trying to keep the early stages of a church pure from anything that might trip them up. There was MUCH more at stake back then with the church in corinth. I dont think we have to worry about the church falling apart overnight like he did back then. He is basically saying it is better to dump these people in the street than risk the church. But he is NOT saying to turn your back on them.

Are you being serious?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 25th 2008, 03:19 PM
Are you being serious?

I'm wondering the same thing. I think that the issue today is the church falling apart. We are being tripped up by immorality.

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 05:05 PM
Are you being serious?
feel free to show me where i am wrong

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 05:12 PM
I'm wondering the same thing. I think that the issue today is the church falling apart. We are being tripped up by immorality.

and you the same...feel free to show me where i am wrong. However you should note that i was VERY specific in saying. Paul was trying to keep the church from falling apart OVERNIGHT. This is not the issue today we still have time to save it as long as Christians stop propagating false doctrine such as homosexuals are going to hell. Get a clue people WE are at fault here not the immoral people. THAT is the reason the church is falling apart NOT immorality. The immoral people feel like they have nowhere to turn because the church is just going to condemn then to hell.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 25th 2008, 06:08 PM
this is where we differ. Although i agree they SHOULD no longer be homosexuals i realize it isnt that easy. I think as long as the are making efforts and truly trying to defeat their impulses they are fine.

Let me give you an example that might make it more clear. Lets say a homosexual turns his life over to Christ and no longer sleeps with men. He does this for 3 years, but in a moment of weakness submits to his flesh and has sex. this man dies the next day in a car accident. I do not believe just becasue he had a moment of weakness he is going to hell.

Neither do I....but that is because he had previously confessed that his sin was wrong, and repented of it.
The difference between this person, and a practicing homosexual, is that the practicing homosexual willfully engages in such activities, with no remorse or Godly sorrow leading to repentance.
In no way are we implying that when a person repents of the homosexual lifestyle, that person will never struggle with homosexuality again....but that being said, the struggle itself is an indicator that the person is repentant.

As far as your initial statement is concerned, I guess the main question is....what define's a person, his actions or his tendencies?
Biblically-speaking, are we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because we are sinners? According to the Bible, we sin because we are sinners....our nature defines our actions. Even so, because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, we are no longer slaves to sin, although we will occasionally sin. We are no longer identified as sinners, but as made righteous in Christ. Though we will sometimes sin, we are no longer identified as sinners, as this is not what drives us anymore......we are sinners saved by grace.
The same goes with homosexuality....a repentant homosexual is no longer defined as homosexual, because that person is made righteous in Christ. He is no longer a homosexual, because that is no longer his identity.....He is a child of God, so that even if he occasionally falls privvy to that sin, he is no longer identified with the sin.

So, then, do you think it's Scriptural to label a Christian brother/sister as homosexual, even if that person no longer condones or willfully engages in those activities....or would it be more fair to label them as a child of God who struggles with sin? If a person no longer engages in the homosexual lifestyle, should that person still be labeled a homosexual?!

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 25th 2008, 07:03 PM
and you the same...feel free to show me where i am wrong. However you should note that i was VERY specific in saying. Paul was trying to keep the church from falling apart OVERNIGHT. This is not the issue today we still have time to save it as long as Christians stop propagating false doctrine such as homosexuals are going to hell. Get a clue people WE are at fault here not the immoral people. THAT is the reason the church is falling apart NOT immorality. The immoral people feel like they have nowhere to turn because the church is just going to condemn then to hell.


My friend;

Please realize that it is not we, the church, who condemn people to hell, but God Himself.
The Corinthians passage that you quoted states that we are not to associate with a brother who engages in sexual immorality...not a brother who struggles with sexual immorality, but is repentant. I really think that you need to get this truth clear!!! Paul is talking about those who call themselves Christians, but still insist on indulging in the desires of the flesh.

Take a good look at verse 12:

For what have I to do with judging those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside, God judges. Therefore put away from yourself the evil person

Put away the evil person....that God may judge them, for God judges those on the outside, but we are to judge those in the body. What God is saying is to put that person away, for 2 reasons:

- That God may judge them
- That that person will not defile the body of Christ:

1 Cor. 5:6,7 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore, purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you are truly unleavened. For indeed Christ, out passover, was sacrificed for us.

The difference between God's judgement and the judgement that we are to use is heart vs. action. God will rightly judge men according to their hearts, because only He can know the heart. The only way that we can rightly judge someone is according to their actions, because we cannot see the heart. If a person is willfully engaging in homosexuality, even while claiming to be a Christian, then it's pretty safe to judge that the person is not a Christian; on the other hand, if a person merely has homosexual tendencies, or struggles with that sin, then we have no place to judge, because only God knows that person's heart. It is not the tendency of a person, or his heart, that leavens the lump, but the actions.

Another verse that you may want to consider:

1 Cor. 7:15-18 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two, He says, shall become one flesh. But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him

When a person engages in unrepentant sexual immorality, it pollutes the Body of Christ, not only on a social level, but also on a spiritual level.....if you consider the fact that everyone in the church is a member of the body of Christ, any sort of sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is polluting the body of Christ, since homosexuality is defined as an abomination. Basically, according to this verse, through sexual promiscuity we become one flesh with another person, which inadvertantly brings that person into the body. If we willfully and unrepentantly continue in this behaviour, we are willfully and unrepentantly polluting the body of Christ.

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 08:19 PM
If you were a homosexual reading this thread what would you imply this means.

"They are in denial.
The Scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is an abomination, and that the people who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven."

The problem here is that you arent clear with your intent. you throw out the word homosexual as a general term. A practicing, struggling homosexual would probably be turned off by your statement and feel alienated. Even though in your own words if the are repentant and struggling they are OK. You might remember i stated that "defiant" people will be judged, however "submissive and struggling" is not defiant. MY WHOLE POINT is that you need to be careful when generalizing becasue then you end up backtracking, just like you are doing in your next statement...


The same goes with homosexuality....a repentant homosexual is no longer defined as homosexual, because that person is made righteous in Christ. He is no longer a homosexual, because that is no longer his identity.....He is a child of God, so that even if he occasionally falls privvy to that sin, he is no longer identified with the sin.

So, then, do you think it's Scriptural to label a Christian brother/sister as homosexual, even if that person no longer condones or willfully engages in those activities....or would it be more fair to label them as a child of God who struggles with sin? If a person no longer engages in the homosexual lifestyle, should that person still be labeled a homosexual?!

See this is more along the lines of what you should have said to begin with. However now you look like you are trying to justify using the term "homosexual" Instead of making it clear from the start. This is VERY important when trying explain to someone their faults and flaws.

But to answer the question above... i know many recovering alcoholics that still label themselves alcoholics. they will always label themselves alcoholics, becasue they know they could easily slip back into that lifestyle if they arent careful. All the term "alcoholic" is, is a label that defines a struggle. It can be replaced with any term and it means the exact same thing. however we would not pass the same judgement on alcoholics as homosexuals.


When a person engages in unrepentant sexual immorality, it pollutes the Body of Christ, not only on a social level, but also on a spiritual level.....if you consider the fact that everyone in the church is a member of the body of Christ, any sort of sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is polluting the body of Christ, since homosexuality is defined as an abomination. Basically, according to this verse, through sexual promiscuity we become one flesh with another person, which inadvertantly brings that person into the body. If we willfully and unrepentantly continue in this behaviour, we are willfully and unrepentantly polluting the body of Christ.

The beauty here is all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and it is given. Even if you go out and do it the next day. Don't get me wrong a person can't just play the "forgive me" card forever. Eventually, just like you said, God can see that their heart isnt right and it won't work anymore.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 25th 2008, 09:03 PM
But to answer the question above... i know many recovering alcoholics that still label themselves alcoholics. they will always label themselves alcoholics, becasue they know they could easily slip back into that lifestyle if they arent careful. All the term "alcoholic" is, is a label that defines a struggle. It can be replaced with any term and it means the exact same thing. however we would not pass the same judgement on alcoholics as homosexuals.


Would it make you feel better if I said I treat an alcoholic that calls theirself a Christian and a homosexual that calls theirself a Christian the same? Both of these things have been listed as disqualifiers for the kingdom of God.

John146
Aug 25th 2008, 09:09 PM
Sure it's genetic. Sin has been passed down to us all. If we all decend from Adam? The thing is we must not fulfill that lust of the flesh. We all have our thorn in the flesh.But Romans 1:26-28 makes it clear that it is not natural. If it's not natural, how can it be genetic?

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
Would it make you feel better if I said I treat an alcoholic that calls theirself a Christian and a homosexual that calls theirself a Christian the same? Both of these things have been listed as disqualifiers for the kingdom of God.

People who covet are also disqualified. so i guess we are all going down in flames? Now you are just arguing semantics, which get s nowhere. I think you get my point, and still all you have is a passage out of 1 corinthians that you take out of context and site as your proof. Like i said before an i will say again this is exactly why people run from the church.the number 1 reason sited why people leave the church is...

1. they need a break from church

number 2

2. church members are to judgemental or hypocritical

i bet #2 leads to #1

keck553
Aug 25th 2008, 09:39 PM
It seems to me that Paul in Romans 1 speaks of more things 'unnatural' than homosexuality. He speaks of:

Rom 1:28 In other words, since they have not considered God worth knowing, God has given them up to worthless ways of thinking; so that they do improper things.
Rom 1:29 They are filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and vice; stuffed with jealousy, murder, quarrelling, dishonesty and ill-will; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God; they are insolent, arrogant and boastful; they plan evil schemes; they disobey their parents;
Rom 1:31 they are brainless, faithless, heartless and ruthless.
Rom 1:32 They know well enough God's righteous decree that people who do such things deserve to die; yet not only do they keep doing them, but they applaud others who do the same.

All these traits are against the laws of God. Period. Humans do not create morality - God does. It is our measure of faith to trust Him and His Word. If God says an act is an abomonation, it is in truth exactly what He says it is.That doesn't mean repentance and redemption are unavailable through the Grace poured out by sacrifice of Messiah Yeshua. But repentance means: Turn to God's Way and stop the sin. And what did Jesus say upon healing someone or freeing someone from judgement of the Sanhedron? "Go and sin no more" God's grace is not a free ticket to sin.

These traits are not natural in the sense that God didn't intend these acts any more than God intended for a man to give a woman a certificate of divorce just for any reason. Sin is genetic because it is carried into all generations by Adam, yet sin is unnatural for a regenerated beleiver, because God's intent is to bring us close to Him in fellowship.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 25th 2008, 10:23 PM
If you were a homosexual reading this thread what would you imply this means.

"They are in denial.
The Scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is an abomination, and that the people who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven."


I don't know....it would depend on the person, I guess, but I would hope that it would bring conviction....enough to drive the person from his/her sin. Obviously, I would not want to offend the person, but if it would keep him/her from going to hell, then I think it's worth saying.

What I have stated above is straight from the Bible....those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. If a homosexual disagrees with this, then he/she is not disagreeing with me, but God....and if he/she continues in it, it is an abomination.


The problem here is that you arent clear with your intent. you throw out the word homosexual as a general term.

A homosexual is one who practices same-sex relations....i.e. men lying with men, and women lying with woman. Is that specific enough?


A practicing, struggling homosexual would probably be turned off by your statement and feel alienated.

A practicing homosexual might, but I don't think a struggling homosexual would. A practicing homosexual is one who regularly engages in homosexual behavior, with a willful intent to do so. The struggling homosexual is one who has renounced his homosexual practices, but still grapples with tendencies towards such a lifestyle.

Anyhow, if a homosexual is struggling, he/she would be in more need of my prayers than my lecture.


MY WHOLE POINT is that you need to be careful when generalizing becasue then you end up backtracking, just like you are doing in your next statement...

Sorry, I didn't know I was generalizing. I thought it was obvious that we were talking about unrepentant homosexuals who call themselves Christians yet willfully and regularly engage in homosexual activity.




however we would not pass the same judgement on alcoholics as homosexuals.

How do you know that?

The only thing that we, as Christians, can pass judgement on is a person's willfull actions, and that is only in the realm of their fellowship in the body of Christ.
If a person who is an alcoholic refuses to get help, but insists on being enslaved to his addiction, then we, as fellow believers, must approach him in love, and let him know that his behaviour must stop. If he refuses, then the Bible says that we have the authority to excommunicate him from the body. From that point on, God enacts judgement.

Even so, we are never to close the door on him entirely, but are commanded to receive him back in once he has repented.

It's the same with homosexuality, or any sin that defiles the body of Christ. The Bible allows us to judge to a certain extent, i.e. by a person's actions (if they are unscriptural), but we are never to judge the heart, or a person's motives.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 25th 2008, 10:37 PM
But Romans 1:26-28 makes it clear that it is not natural. If it's not natural, how can it be genetic?

In the end it is sin and sin has been passed down to us all from Adam. If all are decended from Adam then it's a genetic trait passed down. For some it's lusting after the opposite sex and for others it's lusting after the same sex, others are prone to alcohol, others it's drugs, others it's selfishness...etc. It's sin!

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 25th 2008, 10:48 PM
People who covet are also disqualified. so i guess we are all going down in flames? Now you are just arguing semantics, which get s nowhere. I think you get my point, and still all you have is a passage out of 1 corinthians that you take out of context and site as your proof. Like i said before an i will say again this is exactly why people run from the church.the number 1 reason sited why people leave the church is...

1. they need a break from church

number 2

2. church members are to judgemental or hypocritical

i bet #2 leads to #1


It's the same for any sins that have been listed in 1 Corinthians or Galatians or any other book of the Bible that says those that do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God or they will not enter that Holy City.

How on earth is this out of context? It clearly says that those who do these things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I'm not inserting doctrine or pushing an underlying agenda. That's what it says.

I'm not pushing any unbeliever away from the church but if they come in and accept Christ as Lord then it is our duty to tell them as brothers and sisters in Christ that they need to live a holy and godly life. We need to expose sin for what it is...all sin. Let's not sweep it under the rug and pretend nothing is wrong.

edaps7
Aug 25th 2008, 11:33 PM
How on earth is this out of context? It clearly says that those who do these things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I'm not inserting doctrine or pushing an underlying agenda. That's what it says.

I understand you arent pushing an underlying agenda. I just don't think you are understand what the point paul is trying to make. He is trying to say you cannot serve 2 masters. obviously we ALL covet one time or another in our lives, I would even say continuously. Paul clearly states those that covet will not inherit the kingdom of God. So what do you say to this? Obviously there is another meaning behind what he is saying, he IS saying that we should not do X Y and Z but his point is that they cannot and should not come before God. that is why this passage is followed by..."12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. Did Paul give a list of things he cannot do? nope...so obviously action is NOT the deciding factor here. It is what controls your life that decides your fate. If homosexuality controls you God cannot get in, same goes for stealing, alcohol, greed, obsessing over sports, workaholics etc. etc. etc.

Do you think this is a complete list of things not to do? if you answered no, them you have to search deeper into the meaning of the passage.
In a perfect world we would stop doing these bad actions however we arent perfect therefore we can only strive to BETTER ourselves.

divaD
Aug 26th 2008, 12:19 AM
So in the instance of homosexuality God knows all of the emotional baggage, social rejection, disease, family issues, etc. etc. etc. that come along with it. God knows homosexuality is one of the most damaging actions people can choose, so he sees it as an abomination.


Are you being serious here? Do you honestly believe this is why God sees this as an abomination? Homosexuality obviously has been a fact for thousands of yrs.

All of the emotional baggage, social rejection, disease, family issues may be true today, but what about thousands of yrs ago, was it like this back then? Back then is when God declared it an abomination, you need to keep that in mind.

Also I have to wonder, aren't we getting a little off track here, in relation to the OP?
Wasn't the question something like, can a Christian be homosexual and still make it to heaven? We're not discussing the fate of every homosexual in the world are we? I thought this topic was specifically about homosexuals that claim to be Christians, and whether they can still inherit the kingdom of heaven.


I'm going to be honest with you, in order that you can see where my heart is here. If God has already decided to let homosexuals into His kingdom, based on the fact that even tho this is an abomination, He is letting them in because they believe in His Son, and that they love God with all of their hearts, I'm not going to have one problem with this. But the question is, is this how it really works? I mean...as long as we love God, and acknowledge Christ as His only begotten Son...this means that we can still do any abominable acts that we choose...and still inherit the kingdom of heaven?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 26th 2008, 01:24 AM
I understand you arent pushing an underlying agenda. I just don't think you are understand what the point paul is trying to make. He is trying to say you cannot serve 2 masters. obviously we ALL covet one time or another in our lives, I would even say continuously. Paul clearly states those that covet will not inherit the kingdom of God. So what do you say to this? Obviously there is another meaning behind what he is saying, he IS saying that we should not do X Y and Z but his point is that they cannot and should not come before God. that is why this passage is followed by..."12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. Did Paul give a list of things he cannot do? nope...so obviously action is NOT the deciding factor here. It is what controls your life that decides your fate. If homosexuality controls you God cannot get in, same goes for stealing, alcohol, greed, obsessing over sports, workaholics etc. etc. etc.

Do you think this is a complete list of things not to do? if you answered no, them you have to search deeper into the meaning of the passage.
In a perfect world we would stop doing these bad actions however we arent perfect therefore we can only strive to BETTER ourselves.

When you say it is out of context I would just like to point out that these commentaries...

6:9, 10 The kingdom of God here seems to refer to a future time when God will rule the earth in righteousness (Matt. 6:10; Luke 11:2). do not be deceived: Tragically, Christians sometimes deceive themselves into thinking that God does not require them to live righteously. Paul emphasizes that the kinds of people listed in these verses will not inherit or possess the kingdom of God.[/URL]
(http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftn1)Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. 1999. Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary . T. Nelson Publishers: Nashville

Those who will inherit the kingdom of God are not merely those who are “saved from sin” but those who actively pursue and manifest a righteous, changed, sanctified life. They are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. Those who continue in a lifestyle of fornication, theft, idolatry, adultery, or drunkenness cannot “inherit” or experience the blessings of the kingdom of God on this earth. (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftn1)Thomas Nelson, I. 1997, c1995. Woman's study Bible . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

6:9 Had they forgotten that people whose lives are characteristically unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? If they have forgotten, then he will remind them of a list of sinners who will have no part in God’s kingdom. He is saying that people who practice such sins are not Christians. (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftn1)
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. 1997, c1995. Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

9–10. They are also deceived. Those who would accuse the Apostle Paul of bifurcating works and faith should take a closer look at these verses. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It would seem that there were some in the Corinthian assembly who have professed Christianity as a system of doctrine, but not as a rule of life. The apostle warns that this is a fatal mistake. Be not deceived. No one who can allow himself the indulgence of known sin in his life can be saved. This passage proves that “Paul and James are in basic agreement. Both affirm that genuine faith produces good works (cf. Eph 2:8–10), and that the absence of good works indicates the lack of faith (cf. James 2:14–26).” (S. L. Jackson, “I Corinthians,” The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, p. 1238). (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftnref2) [URL="http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftnref1"]KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994. Thomas Nelson: Nashville

edaps7
Aug 26th 2008, 02:18 AM
When you say it is out of context I would just like to point out that these commentaries...

6:9, 10 The kingdom of God here seems to refer to a future time when God will rule the earth in righteousness (Matt. 6:10; Luke 11:2). do not be deceived: Tragically, Christians sometimes deceive themselves into thinking that God does not require them to live righteously. Paul emphasizes that the kinds of people listed in these verses will not inherit or possess the kingdom of God.
Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. 1999. Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary . T. Nelson Publishers: Nashville

Those who will inherit the kingdom of God are not merely those who are “saved from sin” but those who actively pursue and manifest a righteous, changed, sanctified life. They are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. Those who continue in a lifestyle of fornication, theft, idolatry, adultery, or drunkenness cannot “inherit” or experience the blessings of the kingdom of God on this earth. Thomas Nelson, I. 1997, c1995. Woman's study Bible . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

6:9 Had they forgotten that people whose lives are characteristically unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? If they have forgotten, then he will remind them of a list of sinners who will have no part in God’s kingdom. He is saying that people who practice such sins are not Christians. (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1763352#_ftn1)
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. 1997, c1995. Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments . Thomas Nelson: Nashville

9–10. They are also deceived. Those who would accuse the Apostle Paul of bifurcating works and faith should take a closer look at these verses. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It would seem that there were some in the Corinthian assembly who have professed Christianity as a system of doctrine, but not as a rule of life. The apostle warns that this is a fatal mistake. Be not deceived. No one who can allow himself the indulgence of known sin in his life can be saved. This passage proves that “Paul and James are in basic agreement. Both affirm that genuine faith produces good works (cf. Eph 2:8–10), and that the absence of good works indicates the lack of faith (cf. James 2:14–26).” (S. L. Jackson, “I Corinthians,” The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, p. 1238). KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994. Thomas Nelson: Nashville


this is the same ole antiquated thought that you have been trying to convince me with the whole time. the only difference is that you didnt say it. the only problem with this train of thought is that it leads to contradictions in other passages...I agree with Diva D this is getting way off topic so i am starting a new thread called "what is sin" i hope you will join

edaps7
Aug 26th 2008, 02:21 AM
Are you being serious here? Do you honestly believe this is why God sees this as an abomination? Homosexuality obviously has been a fact for thousands of yrs.

All of the emotional baggage, social rejection, disease, family issues may be true today, but what about thousands of yrs ago, was it like this back then? Back then is when God declared it an abomination, you need to keep that in mind.


just one thought and per your suggestion i am starting a new post so we can investigate "sin" further.

But yeah it was MUCH easier back then they just killed the homosexuals. Note the sarcasm in my voice

divaD
Aug 26th 2008, 02:42 AM
But yeah it was MUCH easier back then they just killed the homosexuals. Note the sarcasm in my voice

Perhaps you need to revisit the OT. There were many abominations that brought death sentences. And none of them had anything to do with homosexuality, except of course homosexuality itself. AFAIK, no one is singling out homosexuality as the ultimate sin, nor the only sin that could prevent one from obtaining salvation. It only appears that this is so, mainly because this topic is specifically about homosexuality, and not about murderers, or liars, or fornicators, etc.

Mograce2U
Aug 26th 2008, 04:36 AM
this is where we differ. Although i agree they SHOULD no longer be homosexuals i realize it isnt that easy. I think as long as the are making efforts and truly trying to defeat their impulses they are fine.

Let me give you an example that might make it more clear. Lets say a homosexual turns his life over to Christ and no longer sleeps with men. He does this for 3 years, but in a moment of weakness submits to his flesh and has sex. this man dies the next day in a car accident. I do not believe just becasue he had a moment of weakness he is going to hell.And yet what happened to him the very next day? HE DIED. Seems if he had heeded the warning, he might have thought twice and at least have been allowed to live out his days. Chastening for the unrepentant can bring death - just like it did under the law in the OT. God has not changed, He is holy and He scourges every son whom He receives.

(Lev 20:7-8 KJV) Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. {8} And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you....

(Lev 20:13 KJV) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(1 Pet 1:15-16 KJV) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Cynthia
Aug 26th 2008, 01:42 PM
Oldchurchguy, if God didn't know what HE was doing with us before we were in our mother's womb, then I guess the Bible is fiction. I mean, after all, the Word says, HE knows all things, HE knew us before we were in our mother's womb. I seriously doubt, that since HIS thoughts towards us are all good, that HE would have messed up innocent children with mixed gender genes. Amen.

Those that claim it is genetic, are calling God a liar!!! God does not create abominations, satan, through people does!!!

God Bless~~~~:)

Becuase sin entered the world and we are all born in sin, people can be born with genetic diseases, handicaps, and cognitive delays. In a prefect or sinless world, no one would be born with any of the above. Homosexuality is a byproduct of a sinful world and I do believe people can be born with a predisposition to be homosexual. But if they act on that predisposition that is where they sin. The same can be said for addicts.

John146
Aug 26th 2008, 10:04 PM
In the end it is sin and sin has been passed down to us all from Adam. If all are decended from Adam then it's a genetic trait passed down. For some it's lusting after the opposite sex and for others it's lusting after the same sex, others are prone to alcohol, others it's drugs, others it's selfishness...etc. It's sin!I don't agree that we are each prone to do certain sins. Prone to sin, yes. But prone to do certain sins? Where is that taught in scripture? I still don't see that you have answered my question as to how homosexuality could be not natural, as it says in Romans 1:26-28 and yet still be genetic. If it was genetic it seems to me that it would be natural. Not that it would be okay, but still natural. But it's not.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 26th 2008, 11:17 PM
I don't agree that we are each prone to do certain sins. Prone to sin, yes. But prone to do certain sins? Where is that taught in scripture? I still don't see that you have answered my question as to how homosexuality could be not natural, as it says in Romans 1:26-28 and yet still be genetic. If it was genetic it seems to me that it would be natural. Not that it would be okay, but still natural. But it's not.

The same way that murder is unnatural so is homosexuality...it's sin. Unless you think murder is natural? We all have our weaknesses. What might tempt me into sin might not affect you at all and something that might tempt you into sin might not affect me. Pornography was and is my greatest temptation...really if I'm honest it's my only temptation. Was I born with porn as my certain sin, maybe. But we are all born with some sort of sin and mine manifested into porn. Yours could have manifested into something completely different or it could be the same. In the end it's sin. We all have the genetic characteristics of sin that was passed down from Adam.

Mograce2U
Aug 27th 2008, 12:53 AM
If some sin is "genetic" where is the cure to be found? Could we take a pill and fix it? Or have it cut out of us? Of course not, because our struggle is not with our genes but with our lust - and that is spiritual.

Covetousness and pride is at the root of all sin. We all suffer from "I want what I want when I want it" - and that this grows stronger to a greater degree in some than in others, is because some practice more than others. Nobody has a porn addiction who has not indulged himself in the practice! Same for any other sin you could name - practicing evil is what has strengthened the inordinate desire and practicing goodness is what will undo its power.

The real problem is we prefer our sin and do not want to have to let it go.

Hath God really said...? When we accept what He has said and believe it, the biggest hurdle in the battle with sin will be over. It is holiness which is unnatural to us, therefore we must learn what that means.

I actually had a dream the other night whereby people were smoking in heaven! Is that absurd or what? I woke myself and apologized to the Lord...

Marc B
Aug 27th 2008, 03:07 AM
Why would God put some people at a disadvantage to achieve afterlife in heaven by handicapping them with a sexual desire that He calls "an abomination"?

Doesn't seem fair does it? If you believe the idea that the only opportunity for salvation is before the second advent and all unsaved will perish then along with everyone else resurrected at the great white throne judgment who never had a chance to learn and repent then it makes it sound like only the ones lucky enough to have been born at the right time will make it. A common belief seems to be that the GWTJ means immediate sentencing upon resurrection. If that's true then all those people who lived before Jesus died for our sins are lost, all people living since then with mental illness and all those who never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ because they died before they had a chance are without hope and that makes God look like He is playing favorites and isn't giving everyone a fair chance. Doesn't the Bible say corruption will put on incorruption? All unsaved resurrected to physically perfect bodies without disease and genetic flaws that may give rise to sinful tendencies, sexual or otherwise? Is salvation only reserved for healthy adults of sound mind living between the first and second advent? Will, infants, toddlers and children accidentaly killed, murdered or dead by illness be resurrected have a chance to grow up, mature and learn God's way of life? The Bible does say at the final resurrection everyone who has ever lived will live for a time. Doesn't it make sense that that time could be used to teach everyone the truth who didn't get a clear opportunity before or is it to process the billions of people who ever lived in a type of gigantic waiting room while God points his finger and says you,you,you,you and you this way, you guys over there that way? :hmm:

Marc B
Aug 27th 2008, 03:18 AM
I don't agree that we are each prone to do certain sins. Prone to sin, yes. But prone to do certain sins? Where is that taught in scripture? I still don't see that you have answered my question as to how homosexuality could be not natural, as it says in Romans 1:26-28 and yet still be genetic. If it was genetic it seems to me that it would be natural. Not that it would be okay, but still natural. But it's not.

It may not be scriptural per se but the fact remains that people are born with predispositions towards certain things, good and bad. Sometimes some animals behave in a homosexual manner so there has to be a genetic tendency of some sort, they're animals running on instinct, not lusts of the flesh. Whereas we have a spirit imparted to us by God so we can know good from evil and overcome our natural urges that can cause us to sin, but we are still made of the same stuff as the plants and animals we share the planet with and subject to the same flaws and diseases they are.

SIG
Aug 27th 2008, 04:07 AM
Since the fall, the genetic pool has been corrupted; that is clear. Some are born with physical conditions that won't be healed even through salvation. Some are born (or acquire) propensities that can be healed through salvation. This is true of homosexuality, because personal testimonies show it.

For many (most?) homosexuals, healing will not turn them heterosexual, but will only enable them to avoid sexual activity. This seems great to us--but imagine giving up YOUR sex life--even one that is not seen as sinful.

What I mean is--it's easy for us to say, "They just need to give up sex." I'm NOT saying they shoudn't give up sex; quite the opposite. But I would never be blithe or casual about saying it.

Folks like that--who become eunuchs for the Kingdom--are going to need a whole lot of love from their fellow believers, to fill such a deep and great void in their lives.

Slug1
Aug 27th 2008, 04:20 AM
For many (most?) homosexuals, healing will not turn them heterosexual, but will only enable them to avoid sexual activity. This seems great to us--but imagine giving up YOUR sex life--even one that is not seen as sinful. God can raise people from the dead so why do we put a limitation on what God can and cant do? If a person who is bound by homosexuality gives it "all" to God, God will heal them of it "all" and the chain will be broken and the person will be free. Completely... as if they were never bound by it... it's then up to such a person to forgive themselves after being delivered and this is where satan moves right back in to try to chain them back to their past and root the homosexuality right back into them. Some stand firm in their healing/deliverance and have a normal life after that, some can't get passed their past and allow satan to chain them and make them believe they are not healed.

God heals, He doesn't slap a band aid over us and only do half the job!

The ones not completely free... are those healed but for some reason do not look forward but instead contantly look back along the path they traveled and keep their eye's on that chain left lying in the middle of the path. All they need to do is turn around, walk forward without looking back and accept the healing they received from God with no looking back at that chain satan so badly wants to attach them to again.

OldChurchGuy
Aug 27th 2008, 11:50 AM
Oldchurchguy, if God didn't know what HE was doing with us before we were in our mother's womb, then I guess the Bible is fiction. I mean, after all, the Word says, HE knows all things, HE knew us before we were in our mother's womb. I seriously doubt, that since HIS thoughts towards us are all good, that HE would have messed up innocent children with mixed gender genes. Amen.

Those that claim it is genetic, are calling God a liar!!! God does not create abominations, satan, through people does!!!

God Bless~~~~:)
So the Satan is responsible for all children born with what are characterized as birth defects? And the Satan is responsible for disease such as cancer in children and/or adults?

Seeking clarity,

OldChurchGuy

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 27th 2008, 04:09 PM
If some sin is "genetic" where is the cure to be found? Could we take a pill and fix it? Or have it cut out of us? Of course not, because our struggle is not with our genes but with our lust - and that is spiritual.

The cure is in Jesus. Jesus told us where sin is...

Mark 7
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

Mograce2U
Aug 27th 2008, 05:21 PM
So the Satan is responsible for all children born with what are characterized as birth defects? And the Satan is responsible for disease such as cancer in children and/or adults?

Seeking clarity,

OldChurchGuyWhat is a genetic deformity, is not what sin is. One has a physical cause and the other is spiritual in origin. Satan does work to bring corruption into God's world which was created good in the beginning. And so does a man's bent on his sin make him do evil things. Add to that there is a curse in the world which brings death in order to curb sin and we can see it gets a bit complicated to understand. We have no choice in the genes we are born with, but the actions we do make us accountable whatever the reason we use to justify ourselves. A man born lame cannot help it if he limps, what he can help is that he not turn to stealing. Even it were possible that genes have caused a man to be confused concerning his sexual orientation, he is still responsible for whether he fornicates or not. Hormones are not what rules our minds, regardless of how they might make us feel.

Even in raging PMS, I have the choice whether I lash out at others or not.

John146
Aug 27th 2008, 10:08 PM
The same way that murder is unnatural so is homosexuality...it's sin. Unless you think murder is natural?Is anyone prone to murder by genetics? I don't believe so. So, that's not a valid comparison in this case. The issue I'm debating here is whether homosexuality is genetic. I see no evidence for that being the case, especially when Romans 1 tells us it's not physically natural for anyone to be that way. Doesn't God make people the way they are? Sure seems to me that if it was genetic then it would also be natural just as it's natural for me to be heterosexual.


We all have our weaknesses. What might tempt me into sin might not affect you at all and something that might tempt you into sin might not affect me. Pornography was and is my greatest temptation...really if I'm honest it's my only temptation.Is that because of genetics? Remember, we're talking about homosexuality supposedly being passed down by genetics. I'm still not seeing any evidence of such a thing.


Was I born with porn as my certain sin, maybe.Where is the scriptural evidence that anyone is born prone to certain sins? To sin in general, sure. But certain sins? I don't know of any scripture that teaches that.


But we are all born with some sort of sin and mine manifested into porn. Yours could have manifested into something completely different or it could be the same. In the end it's sin. We all have the genetic characteristics of sin that was passed down from Adam.Yes, sin in general. Certain sins? Again, I see no scriptural evidence of such a thing.

John146
Aug 27th 2008, 10:13 PM
It may not be scriptural per se but the fact remains that people are born with predispositions towards certain things, good and bad.Are they? I think people are born with predispositions towards sin in general, but not towards certain things.


Sometimes some animals behave in a homosexual manner so there has to be a genetic tendency of some sort, they're animals running on instinct, not lusts of the flesh.It's natural for animals to eat other animals. Is it then natural for people to eat other people? We're not animals so that's not really a valid comparison you're making.


Whereas we have a spirit imparted to us by God so we can know good from evil and overcome our natural urges that can cause us to sin, but we are still made of the same stuff as the plants and animals we share the planet with and subject to the same flaws and diseases they are.I'm still waiting for someone to show me scripture that says people can be born prone to certain sins. I know a lot of opinions are being shared here, which is fine, but only scripture is going to convince me to change my opinion on this if it isn't currently accurate.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 27th 2008, 10:26 PM
Is anyone prone to murder by genetics? I don't believe so. So, that's not a valid comparison in this case. The issue I'm debating here is whether homosexuality is genetic. I see no evidence for that being the case, especially when Romans 1 tells us it's not physically natural for anyone to be that way. Doesn't God make people the way they are? Sure seems to me that if it was genetic then it would also be natural just as it's natural for me to be heterosexual.

You say it is not physically natural for anyone to be homosexual and I agree but the point I'm trying to get you to see is that murder is just as physically unnatural. All sin is unnatural...IMO.


Is that because of genetics? Remember, we're talking about homosexuality supposedly being passed down by genetics. I'm still not seeing any evidence of such a thing.

Where is the scriptural evidence that anyone is born prone to certain sins? To sin in general, sure. But certain sins? I don't know of any scripture that teaches that.


If we are decended from Adam and sin entered the world through one man (Adam) then we all have that sin trait passed down to us all. I thought I cleared up the prone to certain sin thing. If we are born with sin in our lives then it HAS to manifest into something. For some that sin will manifest into drunkeness, for others adultery, for others murder, for others sexual immorality. Not that we are predetermined for certain sins.

Do you agree with the scripture that says that through one man sin entered the world?

keck553
Aug 27th 2008, 10:34 PM
The bottom line is that the consequences of sin are all around in, in many forms, whether from our sin or from others' sin. We don't know enough about genetics and such things to reach into the physical truth towards a particular behaviour. I honestly don't know if there is a genetic tendency towards a particular kind of sinning. Does it really matter if there is? No matter what our situation or circumstance, our focus is to be on Yeshua, not ourselves. Our joy is in Him, and that is eternal life in the presence of the Almighty. That is the core of Christian shalom. Our personal issues are peripheal to that. If the core of our joy in Yeshua isn't there, the personal issues become the core and our joy becomes peripheal, subject to ebbs and flows of circumstances.

Sin is defined by God, not men.

Thus the only cure is Jesus. He may or may not wipe away the consequences of our sin, but He will forgive us and draw us near to Him and give us this core of peace and hope of an eternitly spend with Him.

Remember what Jesus said when a healing took place. "Go and sin no more".