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copper25
Aug 27th 2008, 02:14 PM
Corinthians 13:6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in truth

but rejoiceth in truth - Psalm 119:104) Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way)) Galatians 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?)) To rejoice in the truth of God means to stay away and flee from the ways of incorrectness. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.))
“The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord” and the actions listed in Corinthians 6:9-10), aren’t they all sources of sin, somehow going against the text, the word of God, which is the truth rejoiced in? If you be committing any of those actions are you rejoicing in the truth? No! But dwelling in the untruth. You cannot be dwelling in the truth and the untruth at the same time because the truth is narrow and the untruth is broad. Those things above are part of the broad way and belong to the children of disobedience. For us “his commandments are not grievous“ and as children of God those actions like the ones in Corinthians 6:9-10) can not be a part of our current lifestyle for 1 John 1:6) If we say that we have fellow with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.))
Proverbs 4:27) Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.)) When we read the bible we should not try to find technicalities, for what ones could there be? James 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer….) Many people make the mistake of dismissing statements like Corinthians 6:9-10) by saying, “I am not perfect”, not heeding the seriousness of it. It is put plainly that current doers of those listed actions will not inherit the kingdom of God, period! We shouldn’t lean but take the text to heart for what it says.

walked
Aug 27th 2008, 05:31 PM
Thank you for posting this.

For the readers that find themselves convicted by the list in Corinthians 6:9-10 and other scriptures........
Although Christ teaches that we are to forgive our fellows up to 490 times in one day if we are sinned against by them.
And although I also think that when we sin or fall short of Gods expectations of us and are disobedient, if we come and sincerely confess and turn/repent from that confessed sin, then we will be forgiven by the Lord also just as many times in one day "490 times". BUT!...

Many, many people are in addictions or are slaves to a familiar sin.
Gods mercy and patience with humanity is humanities salvation but,
(feeling guilt over sin is not repentance / asking for forgiveness is not repentance either)
Confessing our sin knowing that we will return and sin again because of an addiction or bondage to that sin is how the evil one robs us of Gods blessings and even our eternal life and fellowship with our creator.

I struggled with this situation for many, many years...
I prayed for deliverance, I spoke/proclaimed Gods words to deliver me from diverse temptations but always eventually returned to my familiar sin because I was aware of Gods endless mercy and patience with His creation, and then kept losing faith because I was still living in sin and not receiving Gods blessings in the short periods of time between my 'so called' confessions/repenting and eventually returning to my old familiar sins (like a dog to its own vomit)

.....ALAS, After years n years of removing myself from situations I knew I would be tempted in. After years n years of claiming Gods word to deliver me from bondage. After years n years of praying for personal deliverance from my bondages. After years of returning to the Lord over and over again because of my guilt over the same familiar sins, even knowing I would be returning to the very same familiar sin I am now confessing and ask forgiveness from Him for (like a dog returning to its own vomit).

I was not believing Gods own words "no temptations has befallen you that is not common to man"
I discovered the way out that God promised to provide us when we are being tempted !

This is the way out (((Honor God))) make a decision "I am going to honor God today" and if you have to make that decision each and every time you are tempted then say this each time you are tempted "NO" "I am going to honor God" "because he made me His child"...knowing who you are in Gods eyes will motivate you to honor the one who placed you in the position, the position being "a child of God"
I discovered that His mercy and patience that is our salvation is not how many times He will forgive us but that He is willing and able to put us in a position and give us a title of being His child, taking us if we are willing to follow and learn from His word Jesus Christ Emanuel, taking us from being a dead pile of dust and making us a new creature.... That is His mercy and patience that is mans salvation.

Ok, where is the Liberty ? the liberty is I can now knowing that I am His child and knowing my benefits and knowing my obligations that come with that position "a child of God"... will keep me even when I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, even when I find myself in the midst of evil, even when I walk in to unwholesome environments, even when I boldly confront lies or the self righteous with Gods truth, even when I share Gods compassion with the ungodly, I am at liberty to do so with out fear of condemnation from my fellows, because I honor the one who will validate me.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 09:30 AM
Corinthians 13:6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in truth

but rejoiceth in truth - Psalm 119:104) Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way)) Galatians 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?)) To rejoice in the truth of God means to stay away and flee from the ways of incorrectness. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.))
“The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord” and the actions listed in Corinthians 6:9-10), aren’t they all sources of sin, somehow going against the text, the word of God, which is the truth rejoiced in? If you be committing any of those actions are you rejoicing in the truth? No! But dwelling in the untruth. You cannot be dwelling in the truth and the untruth at the same time because the truth is narrow and the untruth is broad. Those things above are part of the broad way and belong to the children of disobedience. For us “his commandments are not grievous“ and as children of God those actions like the ones in Corinthians 6:9-10) can not be a part of our current lifestyle for 1 John 1:6) If we say that we have fellow with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.))
Proverbs 4:27) Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.)) When we read the bible we should not try to find technicalities, for what ones could there be? James 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer….) Many people make the mistake of dismissing statements like Corinthians 6:9-10) by saying, “I am not perfect”, not heeding the seriousness of it. It is put plainly that current doers of those listed actions will not inherit the kingdom of God, period! We shouldn’t lean but take the text to heart for what it says.


According to James 1:25 what is the perfect law of liberty?

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 28th 2008, 10:37 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

I know that your question isn't/wasn't directed at me, but I just can't resist giving an answer...


Before Christ Jesus came in flesh as Emanuel (God with us) man was alienated from God except by strict obedience to the laws of Moses, meaning they had to laybor by their own efforts to be righteous in Gods eyes, the laws of Moses was the only way to be righteous, excepted and pleasing to God by their strict obedience to the law.

After the work Christ Jesus Emanuel did on earth, man can now use Christ righteousness in Gods eyes to be their own righteousness. We can now use the labor and efforts of Christ Jesus to become excepted and pleasing to God. The work Christ Jesus did on earth paid the price for our liberty to use His righteousness as our own.

Now to use Christ righteousness is a another story...
You must believe His claim to be Emanuel.
You must be willing to sacrifice to follow, and keep following Him.
You must discipline yourself after His teachings.

Since most of us now a days and most of the gentile Nations in the days when the new testament was being authored have never been obligated to live our/their lives under the strict codes and ordinances of the Mosaic law, then it is hard to understand what the full meaning of liberty is when used in scripture as "the law of liberty" contrasted against "The laws of Moses" but that is the context it is presented in, in scripture.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 11:12 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

I know that your question isn't/wasn't directed at me, but I just can't resist giving an answer...


Before Christ Jesus came in flesh as Emanuel (God with us) man was alienated from God except by strict obedience to the laws of Moses, meaning they had to laybor by their own efforts to be righteous in Gods eyes, the laws of Moses was the only way to be righteous, excepted and pleasing to God by their strict obedience to the law.

After the work Christ Jesus Emanuel did on earth, man can now use Christ righteousness in Gods eyes to be their own righteousness. We can now use the labor and efforts of Christ Jesus to become excepted and pleasing to God. The work Christ Jesus did on earth paid the price for our liberty to use His righteousness as our own.

Now to use Christ righteousness is a another story...
You must believe His claim to be Emanuel.
You must be willing to sacrifice to follow, and keep following Him.
You must discipline yourself after His teachings.

Since most of us now a days and most of the gentile Nations in the days when the new testament was being authored have never been obligated to live our lives under the strict codes and ordinances of the Mosaic law, then it is hard to understand what the full meaning of liberty is when used in scripture as "the law of liberty" contrasted against "The laws of Moses"



Do the following scriptures imply that those that were keeping the laws of Moses had a problem with those that had accepted Jesus but did not keep the Law of Moses?

Gal 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 28th 2008, 11:28 AM
Absolutely....
The Apostle Paul was haunted by men calling themselves Jews.
Many times just after Paul would establish a new church in an area, then leave to spread the gospel in new area's.
Then these men calling themselves Jews would come in and try to corrupt the simple gospel that was just recently brought to them by Paul to form that church, by introducing/sneaking in parts of the Mosaic law into the simple gospel just taught to them by Paul.

The motives of these men calling themselves Jews are up for grabs, I suppose some were just simply jealous of the freedom the new church has, I supposed some were just confused or mislead, and I suppose some where just trying to make a name for themselves and have people call them teachers or rabbi, and of course I know a few were sons of the evil one intentionally trying to rob, kill and destroy the body of Christ.

valleybldr
Aug 28th 2008, 11:39 AM
Absolutely....
The Apostle Paul was haunted by men calling themselves Jews. Much like his preconversion activities. Unbelieving Jews were a "pain in his side" but the Gentiles were the ones who put him to death. His teaching was an offense to all but the citizens of the Kingdom (likely, at the time of his death most were Jewish). todd

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 12:29 PM
Absolutely....
The Apostle Paul was haunted by men calling themselves Jews.
Many times just after Paul would establish a new church in an area, then leave to spread the gospel in new area's.
Then these men calling themselves Jews would come in and try to corrupt the simple gospel that was just recently brought to them by Paul to form that church, by introducing/sneaking in parts of the Mosaic law into the simple gospel just taught to them by Paul.

The motives of these men calling themselves Jews are up for grabs, I suppose some were just simply jealous of the freedom the new church has, I supposed some were just confused or mislead, and I suppose some where just trying to make a name for themselves and have people call them teachers or rabbi, and of course I know a few were sons of the evil one intentionally trying to rob, kill and destroy the body of Christ.


Wrong. They did not "sneak in" Mosaic Law. They brought their Tradition (called law in Judaism) into the church and tried to have the gentiles submit.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 12:42 PM
Wrong. They did not "sneak in" Mosaic Law. They brought their Tradition (called law in Judaism) into the church and tried to have the gentiles submit.

From the following scripture, what is the yoke of bondage spoken of? What does it mean that if we keep one thing contained in the law that we must then keep the whole law?


Galatians 5:1-8
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Jas 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

By whom are we being persuaded?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 06:37 PM
What does it mean that if we keep one thing contained in the law that we must then keep the whole law?


Oddly enough, your above statement is found in Torah.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 07:26 PM
Oddly enough, your above statement is found in Torah.

Is that according to the following?

Deut 27:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=27&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Deut 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deut 11:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deut 11:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 07:32 PM
Is that according to the following?

Deut 27:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=27&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Deut 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deut 11:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deut 11:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Firstfruits

Quick on the draw. Thank You.


Is that not an interesting passage? YHWH lays out that there are two paths. His Commands and following "other gods".

Which god do we follow?

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 07:38 PM
Quick on the draw. Thank You.


Is that not an interesting passage? YHWH lays out that there are two paths. His Commands and following "other gods".

Which god do we follow?

For those that do that which is written according to Gods law, can one commandment be chosen to be kept and not another?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 07:50 PM
For those that do that which is written according to Gods law, can one commandment be chosen to be kept and not another?

Firstfruits


If you are asking if I am perfect, that if I stand blameless in the matter of the law I would suggest you should read Paul.

walked
Aug 28th 2008, 07:53 PM
Hi again Firstfruits,

Please keep in mind that the 10 commandments were also presented by Moses but are not the codes and ordinances of Mosaic law, these ten commandments were given by Moses prior to Moses composing the books of Mosaic laws, and the ten commandments were written directly by the finger of God on to stone and not written by a man inspired by God.

From the following scripture, what is the yoke of bondage spoken of?
Calling it yoke of bondage because the idea that to please God man would have to strictly adhere to the Mosaic law (or as Emanate (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=29806) chooses to call it "their traditions") to obtain righteousness by these efforts at keeping all of the Mosaic law.
And the yoke is meant to indicate that this bondage is placed on a man. Most culturally at birth but some by conversion.




What does it mean that if we keep one thing contained in the law that we must then keep the whole law?

And if man decides to be or to remain under the Mosaic law and be judged by the Mosaic law then they can not pick and choose from which codes or ordinances found in the Mosaic law they will submit to or be judged by, its an all or nothing deal, just breaking the least code or ordinance in the Mosaic law convicts you just as much as breaking them all.




By whom are we being persuaded?
Just as the men who called themselves Jews which followed Paul from church to church trying to persuade the new christians there to submit to the parts of the Mosaic law they tried to introduce/sneak into the doctrine of the simple gospel that Paul had just established their church upon.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 08:02 PM
Hi again Firstfruits,

Please keep in mind that the 10 commandments were also presented by Moses but are not the codes and ordinances of Mosaic law that I speak of, these ten commandments were given prior to Moses composing the books of Mosaic laws and, the ten commandment were written by the finger of God on to stone and not written by a man.

Calling it yoke of bondage because the idea that to please God man would have to strictly adhere to the Mosaic law (or as Emanate (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=29806) chooses to call it "their traditions").
And the yoke is meant to indicate that this bondage is placed on a man. Most culturally at birth but some by conversion.



And if man decides to be or to remain under the Mosaic law and be judged by the Mosaic law then they can not pick and choose from which codes or ordinances they will submit to or be judged by, its an all or nothing deal, just breaking the least code or ordinance in the Mosaic law convicts you just as much as breaking them all.



Just as the men who called themselves Jews which followed Paul from church to church trying to persuade the new christians there to submit to the parts of the Mosaic law they tried to introduce/sneak into the doctrine of the simple gospel that Paul had just established their church upon.

Thank you Walked,

very informative.

God bless you

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Aug 28th 2008, 10:15 PM
Hi again Firstfruits,

Please keep in mind that the 10 commandments were also presented by Moses but are not the codes and ordinances of Mosaic law, these ten commandments were given by Moses prior to Moses composing the books of Mosaic laws, and the ten commandments were written directly by the finger of God on to stone and not written by a man inspired by God.

Calling it yoke of bondage because the idea that to please God man would have to strictly adhere to the Mosaic law (or as Emanate (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=29806) chooses to call it "their traditions") to obtain righteousness by these efforts at keeping all of the Mosaic law.
And the yoke is meant to indicate that this bondage is placed on a man. Most culturally at birth but some by conversion.



And if man decides to be or to remain under the Mosaic law and be judged by the Mosaic law then they can not pick and choose from which codes or ordinances found in the Mosaic law they will submit to or be judged by, its an all or nothing deal, just breaking the least code or ordinance in the Mosaic law convicts you just as much as breaking them all.



Just as the men who called themselves Jews which followed Paul from church to church trying to persuade the new christians there to submit to the parts of the Mosaic law they tried to introduce/sneak into the doctrine of the simple gospel that Paul had just established their church upon.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Which of our sins did Christ Jesus die for?
Our sins against the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

Are the wages of sin, wages for sins committed against, the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Does 'all the law' mean, the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

To try and separate a difference of importance between what was written, by the finger of God, and what was written by inspiration is beyond my understanding, and I dare say beyond what the scriptures say.

How can we say, that the inspired law is a yoke upon man, but the law written by the finger of God is different?

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

keck553
Aug 28th 2008, 11:29 PM
God's wisdom and instructions are not a yoke to me, but rather a blessing.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 07:01 AM
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Which of our sins did Christ Jesus die for?
Our sins against the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

Are the wages of sin, wages for sins committed against, the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Does 'all the law' mean, the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

To try and separate a difference of importance between what was written, by the finger of God, and what was written by inspiration is beyond my understanding, and I dare say beyond what the scriptures say.

How can we say, that the inspired law is a yoke upon man, but the law written by the finger of God is different?

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Would you agree then that as long as Gods Torah stands Gentiles will always be strangers and aliens, according to what is written in the Torah?

How then can the following be true?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Has Gods law changed?

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 29th 2008, 08:42 AM
Does 'all the law' mean, the 10 Commandments, the Mosaic law, or both?

Each time you find the English word law used you will have to use a concordance or lexicons and look up the original Greek or Hebrew word used to see which law or laws is being referenced: civil law, Mosaic law, the ten commandments, or the law of love that Christ taught.



To try and separate a difference of importance between what was written, by the finger of God, and what was written by inspiration is beyond my understanding, and I dare say beyond what the scriptures say.

There is a huge difference,
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, where as man is fickle and does not have complete knowledge and wisdom, whether the man is inspired by God or not the same is true.

....Now look in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John where Christ says "you have heard it said, but I say unto you" of the Mosaic laws on divorce where He corrects the Mosaic laws that were written by an inspired man of God (Moses)

....And again in the book of Luke where Christ corrects the Mosaic laws on the subject of recompense where an eye for an eye is taught, but Christ corrects this even though it was written as Mosaic law by an inspired man of God (Moses)

....Also in the Mosaic law an adulterer is condemned to a public death, but when teachers of the Mosaic law came to Christ with an adulteress to see if Christ would validate the death of the woman, He did not validate the Mosaic law concerning adultery but sent the woman away alive and forgiven, even though Mosaic law charges the spouse and the community to stone an adulterer publicly.

The list goes on an on, but no where did Christ correct any of the laws authored by the finger of God on to stone tablets. (The ten commandments)





How can we say, that the inspired law is a yoke upon man, but the law written by the finger of God is different?
We didn't say, (((the bible says it)))
Just do a topical search in the bible on the word 'yoke' and you will see where the Mosaic law is referenced as a yoke upon man many, many times.

And the Law written by the finger of God is the same law that is written on the hearts/minds of the ones who discipline themselves after the teachings of Christ. (Gods children/servants)




Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Absolutely, who said anything different ?
...The ten commandments are written on the hearts/minds of Gods children.
...The Mosaic law is a 5 fold teacher to Gods chosen people.
Between write and wrong.
Between health and disease.
Between living peacefully or in strife.
Also a teacher of the Levitical ceremonial practices and Hebraic cultural rituals.
Finally and most important a guide or roadmap of laws to preserve the bloodline to the Messiah until He was born as Emanuel.

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 01:00 PM
Just do a topical search in the bible on the word 'yoke' and you will see where the Mosaic law is referenced as a yoke upon man many, many times.



No, the poroblem in Christianity is that (as in Judaism) there is no separation from The Law spoken by YHWH and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 01:45 PM
No, the poroblem in Christianity is that (as in Judaism) there is no separation from The Law spoken by YHWH and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

If there is no difference then how is it known if a commandment is being broken because it is not from God?

Mt 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 15:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Thanks, Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 02:28 PM
If there is no difference then how is it known if a commandment is being broken because it is not from God?

Mt 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 15:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Thanks, Firstfruits


The commandments of God are clearly laid out in Torah. If you want to know the commandments of men (in Judaism) there are two ways this can be done:

1. Go read the volume of Books called the Babylonian Talmud (Mishnah, Gemara).

2. Read the Torah and know commandments not found within are commandments of men.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 02:59 PM
The commandments of God are clearly laid out in Torah. If you want to know the commandments of men (in Judaism) there are two ways this can be done:

1. Go read the volume of Books called the Babylonian Talmud (Mishnah, Gemara).

2. Read the Torah and know commandments not found within are commandments of men.

I asked according to what you said before;

No, the poroblem in Christianity is that (as in Judaism) there is no separation from The Law spoken by YHWH and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

What did you mean?

Firstfruits

keck553
Aug 29th 2008, 05:38 PM
It means God doesn't change and is no respector of persons. what else can it mean?

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 06:27 PM
Would you agree then that as long as Gods Torah stands Gentiles will always be strangers and aliens, according to what is written in the Torah?

How then can the following be true?

Gal 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Has Gods law changed?

Firstfruits


With the scriptures you quoted it is quite obvious that Gentiles are no longer strangers from the covenant of Torah. Ruth was once a Gentile yet now she is in the lineage of whom?

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 06:28 PM
It means God doesn't change and is no respector of persons. what else can it mean?

Does the Jewish religion stand without the the law of the Rabbis?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 06:29 PM
I asked according to what you said before;

No, the poroblem in Christianity is that (as in Judaism) there is no separation from The Law spoken by YHWH and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

What did you mean?

Firstfruits


I mean that no one knows how to seperate extra-biblical Rabbinic laws from the laws found in Torah.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 06:44 PM
With the scriptures you quoted it is quite obvious that Gentiles are no longer strangers from the covenant of Torah. Ruth was once a Gentile yet now she is in the lineage of whom?

Yet if the law is unchangeable the Torah puts a difference between Jew and gentile and how they should or should not be treated. They are not one body according to the gospel of Christ, gentiles are strangers and aliens according to the Torah.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 06:48 PM
I mean that no one knows how to seperate extra-biblical Rabbinic laws from the laws found in Torah.

Would that be why Jesus stated that because of The commandments of men that are in the Jewish religion they were worshiping in vain?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 07:13 PM
Yet if the law is unchangeable the Torah puts a difference between Jew and gentile and how they should or should not be treated. They are not one body according to the gospel of Christ, gentiles are strangers and aliens according to the Torah.

Firstfruits


Ruth was a stranger or alien all her life? I hope not, otherwise David and Y'shua are strangers and aliens

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 07:16 PM
Would that be why Jesus stated that because of The commandments of men that are in the Jewish religion they were worshiping in vain?

Firstfruits

Yes, that is the issue. They added to the Words of YHWH, and in some cases superceded. Worship that relies on the vanity of man.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 07:24 PM
Yes, that is the issue. They added to the Words of YHWH, and in some cases superceded. Worship that relies on the vanity of man.

Thanks Emanate,

would this be the reason why we cannot be justified by doing what is written therein?

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 29th 2008, 07:30 PM
No, the poroblem in Christianity is that (as in Judaism) there is no separation from The Law spoken by YHWH and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

There is no problem in true christianity, rightly divide the words in the bible and it is clear which laws (little christ-christians) are yoked too, and it is not the Mosaic laws..... there would be no reason for Emanuel to appear on earth to do His redemptive work if there is no separation from The law spoken by the Creator and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

If you choose to live under rabbitic or Mosaic law, Christ makes it clear that you will be judged by those laws and perish.

Christians by default choose to live under the law of grace and mercy, the law of LIBERTY from the yoke of Mosaic law. Christians righteousness is found in the work Christ did on earth as Emanuel, and not found in any efforts to keep or live under Mosaic laws, so there is no need for christians to submit to/live under the Mosaic law for their righteousness.
Christians righteousness is found in the works/efforts Christ Jesus did on earth, and not in their own work/efforts at keeping Mosaic law that men teach and add to.......there in lies the difference.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 07:38 PM
There is no problem in true christianity, rightly divide the words in the bible, and it is clear which laws (little christ-christians) are yoked too, and it is not the Mosaic laws..... there would be no reason for Emanuel to appear on earth to do His redemptive work if there is no separation from The law spoken by the Creator and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

If you choose to live under rabbitic or Mosaic law, Christ makes it clear that you will be judged by those laws and perish.

Christians by default choose to live under the law of grace and mercy, the law of LIBERTY from the yoke of Mosaic law. Christians righteousness is found in the work Christ did on earth as Emanuel, and not found in any efforts to keep or live under Mosaic laws, so there is no need for christians to submit/ live under/ keep the Mosaic law for their righteousness.... there in lies the difference.

I agree, because if truly there is no difference between the law and the law of the rabbis then Christ has already given his judgment.

Mt 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 15:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 29th 2008, 07:51 PM
I agree, because if truly there is no difference between the law and the law of the rabbis then Christ has already given his judgment.

Mt 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 15:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Firstfruits

Amen !
I lean on the law of Liberty, and will never lean on my works at keeping any laws...
Any works that I do are motivated only by me desiring to please God and to walk worthy of what Christ Jesus has done for me.

Emanate
Aug 29th 2008, 08:17 PM
There is no problem in true christianity, rightly divide the words in the bible and it is clear which laws (little christ-christians) are yoked too, and it is not the Mosaic laws..... there would be no reason for Emanuel to appear on earth to do His redemptive work if there is no separation from The law spoken by the Creator and the law spoken by the Rabbis.

If you choose to live under rabbitic or Mosaic law, Christ makes it clear that you will be judged by those laws and perish.

Christians by default choose to live under the law of grace and mercy, the law of LIBERTY from the yoke of Mosaic law. Christians righteousness is found in the work Christ did on earth as Emanuel, and not found in any efforts to keep or live under Mosaic laws, so there is no need for christians to submit to/live under the Mosaic law for their righteousness.
Christians righteousness is found in the works/efforts Christ Jesus did on earth, and not in their own work/efforts at keeping Mosaic law that men teach and add to.......there in lies the difference.

Lets say I agree with your anomian statement. What if God did actually mean nothing by promising eternity. What if the mosaic law is no more and no need for justification. What if Messiah truly died for naught. What if we do not seek mercy anymore. What if we are not to love God anymore. What if the book of James is wrong. What if Paul was wrong by continuing in the sacrifical system. What if Paul was wrong by saying he was under the law to Messiah. what if Paul was wrong to tell us to keep the feast of Passover. What if Y'shua was wrong in telling us to honor him in Passover. What if all the prophets were wrong. What if David was a fool to love Torah.

But seriously, why is it that some of you cannot separate Mosaic law from righteousness? Name a single person in the bible who was justified by his works. It is man's interpretation that failed, not (as you say) God's law.


It is the Pharisees (some of them) who sought justification by the law. Now modern day Pharisees still view the law as a means of justification and say we should not do it because it is not possible.

If you do not believe Moses, how can you believe Y'shua?

walked
Aug 29th 2008, 10:20 PM
Lets say I agree with your anomian statement. What if God did actually mean nothing by promising eternity. What if the mosaic law is no more and no need for justification. What if Messiah truly died for naught. What if we do not seek mercy anymore. What if we are not to love God anymore. What if the book of James is wrong. What if Paul was wrong by continuing in the sacrifical system. What if Paul was wrong by saying he was under the law to Messiah. what if Paul was wrong to tell us to keep the feast of Passover. What if Y'shua was wrong in telling us to honor him in Passover. What if all the prophets were wrong. What if David was a fool to love Torah.

But seriously, why is it that some of you cannot separate Mosaic law from righteousness? Name a single person in the bible who was justified by his works. It is man's interpretation that failed, not (as you say) God's law.


It is the Pharisees (some of them) who sought justification by the law. Now modern day Pharisees still view the law as a means of justification and say we should not do it because it is not possible.

If you do not believe Moses, how can you believe Y'shua?

Look, don't put words in my mouth: I've not said any laws have failed nor have I suggested it is fruitless to regard them, and I have not said it is fruitless or a sin to observe or not observe or esteem one day above another.

So, because I have chosen to lean on the law of LIBERTY n LIFE and choose not to lean on the law of death does not mean nor have I said the law of death is useless, passed away or of no affect... so lets get that straight and firmly established starting right here! The Law is the best teacher any man can have 2nd only to Christ Jesus as a teacher.
You quoting me here on this thread trying to turn this into a law vs grace issue with me isn't going to fly.

Firstfruits
Aug 30th 2008, 11:26 AM
Lets say I agree with your anomian statement. What if God did actually mean nothing by promising eternity. What if the mosaic law is no more and no need for justification. What if Messiah truly died for naught. What if we do not seek mercy anymore. What if we are not to love God anymore. What if the book of James is wrong. What if Paul was wrong by continuing in the sacrificial system. What if Paul was wrong by saying he was under the law to Messiah. what if Paul was wrong to tell us to keep the feast of Passover. What if Y'shua was wrong in telling us to honor him in Passover. What if all the prophets were wrong. What if David was a fool to love Torah.

But seriously, why is it that some of you cannot separate Mosaic law from righteousness? Name a single person in the bible who was justified by his works. It is man's interpretation that failed, not (as you say) God's law.


It is the Pharisees (some of them) who sought justification by the law. Now modern day Pharisees still view the law as a means of justification and say we should not do it because it is not possible.

If you do not believe Moses, how can you believe Y'shua?

Jesus has already said that the people were worshiping in vain because of the teaching which was not according to Gods commands, if they cannot be separated (the teaching of the Rabbis and the law) then as long as the Rabbis are the religious and spiritual teachers and leaders of the Jewish religion can the following be applied to the Rabbis?

Heb 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Would that be the same as following blindly?

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 30th 2008, 06:28 PM
Jesus has already said that the people were worshiping in vain because of the teaching which was not according to Gods commands, if they cannot be separated (the teaching of the Rabbis and the law) then as long as the Rabbis are the religious and spiritual teachers and leaders of the Jewish religion can the following be applied to the Rabbis?

Heb 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Would that be the same as following blindly?

Firstfruits

Not following blindly but submitting to those who are placed above you, Jesus did not teach that the scribes and pharisees had no righteousness. He taught that to enter His kingdom a man must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
I take that to mean that the scribes and pharisees missed something along the way.
Christ brings light to what they did miss, which is: a heart of love for God and their fellow man.
Which is what all the law and all the prophets hang upon and teach:
Matt 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Firstfruits
Aug 30th 2008, 07:51 PM
Not following blindly but submitting to those who are placed above you, Jesus did not teach that the scribes and pharisees had no righteousness. He taught that to enter His kingdom a man must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
I take that to mean that the scribes and pharisees missed something along the way.
Christ brings light to what they did miss, which is: a heart of love for God and their fellow man.
Which is what all the law and all the prophets hang upon and teach:
Matt 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Is it that they did not believe that a man could be righteous without the law as in the following?

Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 31st 2008, 01:13 AM
Is it that they did not believe that a man could be righteous without the law as in the following?

Rom 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Firstfruits

Possibly but I think that they were not aware of any righteousness apart from the law, so I think they knew no other way because at that time Christ did not reveal himself fully to everyone as the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.
Even those who Christ did fully reveal himself to, they did not understand completely until after His death and resurrection.

I think the bible teaches that even the best observers/keepers of the law missed the spirit of the law... which is above all else: loving God and their fellow man.
Many places in the old and new testament both record where many observers/keepers and teachers of the law put the law above mercy to their fellow man and taught others to do the same.

Emanate
Aug 31st 2008, 02:07 AM
Possibly but I think that they were not aware of any righteousness apart from the law, so I think they knew no other way because at that time Christ did not reveal himself fully to everyone as the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.
Even those who Christ did fully reveal himself to, they did not understand completely until after His death and resurrection.

I think the bible teaches that even the best observers/keepers of the law missed the spirit of the law... which is above all else: loving God and their fellow man.
Many places in the old and new testament both record where many observers/keepers and teachers of the law put the law above mercy to their fellow man and taught others to do the same.

Yes, this is correct. I have found myself in that place many times. It is easier to feel "superior" than it is to love one another.

Firstfruits
Aug 31st 2008, 11:03 AM
Possibly but I think that they were not aware of any righteousness apart from the law, so I think they knew no other way because at that time Christ did not reveal himself fully to everyone as the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.
Even those who Christ did fully reveal himself to, they did not understand completely until after His death and resurrection.

I think the bible teaches that even the best observers/keepers of the law missed the spirit of the law... which is above all else: loving God and their fellow man.
Many places in the old and new testament both record where many observers/keepers and teachers of the law put the law above mercy to their fellow man and taught others to do the same.

Would the following apply to what you have said?

Rom 9:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Firstfruits

walked
Aug 31st 2008, 02:28 PM
Would the following apply to what you have said?

Rom 9:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Firstfruits


Pretty much what I am saying yes, the Jews who did not recognize or identify Christ Jesus as the promised Messiah, to them Christ became a stumbling stone.
Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

But at the same time even before Christ was born and walked on earth with us, many of the biblical patriarchs who observed/kept the laws of Moses were justified by their faith and were counted righteous in Gods eyes.
And some of those were justified by their faith in Gods eyes even before the law was given to man by God through Moses.

Firstfruits
Aug 31st 2008, 02:40 PM
Pretty much what I am saying yes, the Jews who did not recognize or identify Christ Jesus as the promised Messiah, to them Christ became a stumbling stone.
Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
But at the same time even before Christ was born and walked on earth with us, many of the biblical patriarchs who observed/kept the laws of Moses were justified by their faith and were counted righteous in Gods eyes.
And some of those were justified by their faith in Gods eyes even before the law was given to man by God through Moses.


Thanks Walked,

That is agreed, God bless you.

Firstfruits

Alaska
Aug 31st 2008, 04:52 PM
Many are giving undue credit to the OT laws as a whole meaning the entire package, some of which was not "truth".

John 1:
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Sometimes law is necessary to regulate and order things so that the laws in some situations serve to be the lesser of two evils but nonethelesss necessary and respectable when faced with the consequences of what a situation would be like if there were not a law to regulate the situation.

The law is not of faith

Under the OT law we were shut up unto the faith that would afterward be revealed by Jesus

"Promise" and "law" are compared by Paul, the one being of faith and the other not being of faith.
Paul then askes the question in verse 19:

Gal. 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The OT law as a whole, even the absolute moral laws in the ten commandments, (looked at in the context they were given as to unregenerated mankind) was a temporary imposition that was to order and regulate things UNTIL the Seed should come and that was Jesus.
He changed a bunch of things; even things from the ten commandments.
He dropped a bombshell in Matthew 5 and said in effect, you think this and that are true? I say they are not true, "but I say to you..."

The commandments Jesus refers to in Matthew 5 are his own "kingdom of heaven" commandments he gives throughout to the end of chaper 7 right after referring to them:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to complete or fulfil. Part of this was by introducing the New Covenant that abolished some of what was necessary or allowable under the OT

Notice verse 20 above. Jesus brings a higher standard of righteousness as exemplified later in the chapter:

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

These two points in 34 and 38 are in direct opposition to plainly worded OT ordinances.
Jesus came to complete or fulfill. Under grace in the NT some things are no longer to be done that were allowed or even commanded under the OT.

Relegating the negative things Paul speaks of with regard to the law, to false traditions made up in connection with the Old law does no justice to those references by Paul.
The OT and the ten commandments have NO GLORY when compared to the greater glory brought in by the better and greater New Covenant that has abolished the OT in a certain sense.
What sense?
In that it has been replaced with the NT. And though some of what is required under the New, are the same as were required under the Old, such as the moral absolutes, the new man and regeneration by way of the Holy Spirit along with cutting out the now unnecessary things from the Old, makes this NT package so far greater and better as to warrant Paul's declaration that when compared to the New, the Old has NO GLORY in this respect. 2 Cor. 3

"No man is justified by the law" is a very plain reference to the inability for mankind in and of himself, even by having the OT law, to be right with God because of his inherited nature from Adam.
We are justified however by faith, that being the portal by which we accept the new birth and new nature and change of heart as a result of heading Jesus' words that are spirit and life.

Firstfruits
Sep 1st 2008, 09:09 AM
Many are giving undue credit to the OT laws as a whole meaning the entire package, some of which was not "truth".

John 1:
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Sometimes law is necessary to regulate and order things so that the laws in some situations serve to be the lesser of two evils but nonethelesss necessary and respectable when faced with the consequences of what a situation would be like if there were not a law to regulate the situation.

The law is not of faith

Under the OT law we were shut up unto the faith that would afterward be revealed by Jesus

"Promise" and "law" are compared by Paul, the one being of faith and the other not being of faith.
Paul then askes the question in verse 19:

Gal. 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The OT law as a whole, even the absolute moral laws in the ten commandments, (looked at in the context they were given as to unregenerated mankind) was a temporary imposition that was to order and regulate things UNTIL the Seed should come and that was Jesus.
He changed a bunch of things; even things from the ten commandments.
He dropped a bombshell in Matthew 5 and said in effect, you think this and that are true? I say they are not true, "but I say to you..."

The commandments Jesus refers to in Matthew 5 are his own "kingdom of heaven" commandments he gives throughout to the end of chaper 7 right after referring to them:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to complete or fulfil. Part of this was by introducing the New Covenant that abolished some of what was necessary or allowable under the OT

Notice verse 20 above. Jesus brings a higher standard of righteousness as exemplified later in the chapter:

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

These two points in 34 and 38 are in direct opposition to plainly worded OT ordinances.
Jesus came to complete or fulfill. Under grace in the NT some things are no longer to be done that were allowed or even commanded under the OT.

Relegating the negative things Paul speaks of with regard to the law, to false traditions made up in connection with the Old law does no justice to those references by Paul.
The OT and the ten commandments have NO GLORY when compared to the greater glory brought in by the better and greater New Covenant that has abolished the OT in a certain sense.
What sense?
In that it has been replaced with the NT. And though some of what is required under the New, are the same as were required under the Old, such as the moral absolutes, the new man and regeneration by way of the Holy Spirit along with cutting out the now unnecessary things from the Old, makes this NT package so far greater and better as to warrant Paul's declaration that when compared to the New, the Old has NO GLORY in this respect. 2 Cor. 3

"No man is justified by the law" is a very plain reference to the inability for mankind in and of himself, even by having the OT law, to be right with God because of his inherited nature from Adam.
We are justified however by faith, that being the portal by which we accept the new birth and new nature and change of heart as a result of heading Jesus' words that are spirit and life.

Amen to that,

God bless

Firstfruits