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Ridin Red
Aug 27th 2008, 07:55 PM
Hello, I need a little light shined upon an issue. I suppose born again can mean several things. Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God? These scriptures confuse me a little.
John:3
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thanks,
Believeth In The Lord.

Bryan43
Aug 27th 2008, 08:40 PM
Hello, I need a little light shined upon an issue. I suppose born again can mean several things. Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God? These scriptures confuse me a little.
John:3
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thanks,
Believeth In The Lord.

the confusion you have is in the word itself.

John 3: 16 is a promise, not based on being immersed in water. but based on faith in Christ.

Jesus said all who eblieve will be baptised by the holy spirit. this is the spiritual baptism that saves us.

Water baptism is symbolic of this spiritual event. and should be done. but ones salvation or lack of has nothing to do with water baptism.

Ridin Red
Aug 27th 2008, 08:54 PM
the confusion you have is in the word itself.

John 3: 16 is a promise, not based on being immersed in water. but based on faith in Christ.

Jesus said all who eblieve will be baptised by the holy spirit. this is the spiritual baptism that saves us.

Water baptism is symbolic of this spiritual event. and should be done. but ones salvation or lack of has nothing to do with water baptism.
Thank you Bryan43. I was just reading a closed thread on Baptism save us or not.
I know my faith is strong, as I write this my eyes are tearing. I believe in Jesus Christ and he is my savior. My family believes in the need for baptism. I tell them it seems like
a man or a woman immersing me in water is more of a symbolism. The Grace of God is in my heart now! I'm I wrong?

Bryan43
Aug 27th 2008, 09:29 PM
Thank you Bryan43. I was just reading a closed thread on Baptism save us or not.
I know my faith is strong, as I write this my eyes are tearing. I believe in Jesus Christ and he is my savior. My family believes in the need for baptism. I tell them it seems like
a man or a woman immersing me in water is more of a symbolism. The Grace of God is in my heart now! I'm I wrong?

your perfectly right. And if your saved. God already baptised you, and after which he sealed you into his body.

Now make sure you do the symbol also. God commanded it. Like he commanded communion and many other things.

Sold Out
Aug 27th 2008, 09:31 PM
Fabulous answers Bryan43!

Ridin Red
Aug 27th 2008, 09:53 PM
Thanks Guys. Bryan43 is there a scripture that you could refer me to, were you wrote.
Jesus said all who eblieve will be baptised by the holy spirit. this is the spiritual baptism that saves us

Bryan43
Aug 27th 2008, 10:07 PM
Thanks Guys. Bryan43 is there a scripture that you could refer me to, were you wrote.
Jesus said all who eblieve will be baptised by the holy spirit. this is the spiritual baptism that saves us

a few..

Matt 3:11-12 I (John the Baptist) indeed baptise with water unto (because of) repentance. Be he (christ) Who is comming after me is mightier than I , whose sandal straps I am not worth to lose. He will BAPTIZE with the holy spirit and with Fire. His winowing fan is in his hands, and he will thoroughly clean out his threshing floor. and gather the wheat into the barn. But he will burn up the chaff with unquentiable Fire"

Acts 1 :5 For you were truely baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the holy spirit not many days from now

Acts 10: 44 - 48 ?? While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

along with for perspective;

Acts 11: 15- 17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God??

1 Cor 12: 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— vwhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Please note it is the act of the holy spirit doing the baptizing. and the thing we are baptized into is the body

col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Please not it is the working of God. Who raised Christ from the dead that we are baptised. This can only be the holy spirit. this is the circumcizion, or baptism ( cleansing ) done without the hands of man, but by the hands of God.

Rom 6 : 3 Or do you not know that as many of us that were baptized into christ jesus were baptized into his death, therefore were were buried with him in baptism unto death that just as christ was raised by the father, even so we should walk in newness of life..For we have been united together in his likeness of his death certainly we shall also be united in the likeness of his ressurection

Again this is Holy Spirit, not water baptism. the death and burial are the things we are baptised in. not water.

also note. Unted with him in death is another term defined by baptism. this can be seen in another verse.

1 Cor 10: 2 - 4 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ

This is God placing all the children of isreal into vital union with moses. No water baptism is involved here. it was the coud and the sea they were untied in. the miracles done by Christ. the parting of the sea, and the cloud that they followed.

hope this helps

Ridin Red
Aug 27th 2008, 10:14 PM
Thanks again, I see the light.

alethos
Aug 27th 2008, 11:29 PM
I suppose born again can mean several things.

Thats like saying stop on red lights can mean several things. When a light turns red can it mean slow down as you cruise through the intersection? When the light turns red can it mean Go? A red light means stop.

Born again cannot mean several things. It can't mean baptism and birth at the same time. It is either baptism or birth, not both. If Jesus meant baptism, He would have said baptism. However since He said born again, he meant birth. Baptism is not birth.

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 01:31 AM
Hello, I need a little light shined upon an issue. I suppose born again can mean several things. Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God? These scriptures confuse me a little.
John:3
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thanks,
Believeth In The Lord.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)Good question – in John 3 Jesus told Nicodemus, the Jewish “doctor of the law” that the time would shortly come when those who desired to enter the “kingdom of God” would need to be born again – born of “water and the Spirit”. The “new birth” spoken of by Jesus is *one birth* that consists of two elements - “water and Spirit”. This “birth from above” includes the outward administration of immersion in water (a burial) where the believer is “baptized into His death" (Rom 6;3-5) and this ordinance of baptism is combined with the *cleansing of the heart* that is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit as the believer is immersed in water. The "old man" of sin goes into the water a sinner but he arises out of the water a "new creature" in Christ Jesus (born again) - cleansed by the blood of Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit. The ordinance of Christian baptism is (and always has been) the means of entrance into “the kingdom of God” as the believer is “baptized into Christ Jesus” - baptized into the body of Christ. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death" Romans 6:3. To answer your question – yes, one must be immersed in water to “enter the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 of water and of the Spirit — A twofold explanation of the “new birth,” so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze_36:25-27), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. Already had the symbol of water been embodied in an initiatory ordinance, in the baptism of the Jewish expectants of Messiah by the Baptist, not to speak of the baptism of Gentile proselytes before that; and in the Christian Church it was soon to become the great visible door of entrance into “the kingdom of God,” the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost (Tit_3:5). ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

threebigrocks
Aug 28th 2008, 02:16 AM
Ridin Red, were you referring to baptism of the Spirit or baptism by water?

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 02:24 AM
Hello, I need a little light shined upon an issue. I suppose born again can mean several things. Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God? These scriptures confuse me a little.
John:3
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thanks,
Believeth In The Lord.

NO, you do NOT need to be baptized to be saved. As someone who fell into this dangerous teaching not too long after being saved, I am very passionate about refuting it.

calidog
Aug 28th 2008, 02:34 AM
Why be baptised?
Why not?

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 02:46 AM
NO, you do NOT need to be baptized to be saved. As someone who fell into this dangerous teaching not too long after being saved, I am very passionate about refuting it.
But the OP asks the simple question – “Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God?” The biblical answer is yes per Jesus Christ – “ Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. This is straightforward and hard to miss.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 02:58 AM
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)Good question – in John 3 Jesus told Nicodemus, the Jewish “doctor of the law” that the time would shortly come when those who desired to enter the “kingdom of God” would need to be born again – born of “water and the Spirit”. The “new birth” spoken of by Jesus is *one birth* that consists of two elements - “water and Spirit” .

NO NO NO NO NO, NO! To see that the water in John 3:5 is NOT baptism, we have to examine the entire passage in detail, John 3:1-7 KJV:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus came to Jesus and acknowledged that he was who he was (the Son of God), and that's when Jesus spoke to him about being "born again." Nicodemus was confused by this and asked how he could be born a second time when he was already an old man. And that's when Jesus said, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The "water gospel" teachers love to interpret this as meaning baptism, but if you go verses 6-7, in verse 6, Jesus says That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and how are we born of the flesh? By the water of our mother's womb, so Nicodemus could not do this again. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is our regeneration by the Holy Spirit that places us inside the body of Christ and is a supernatural act performed by God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Basically, Jesus was saying that two births are necessary to enter into the kingdom of Heaven, our natural birth in the womb by water, plus a spiritual regeneration accomplished entirely by God.


This “birth from above” includes the outward administration of immersion in water (a burial) where the believer is “baptized into His death" (Rom 6;3-5) and this ordinance of baptism is combined with the *cleansing of the heart* that is a direct operation of the Holy Spirit as the believer is immersed in water. The "old man" of sin goes into the water a sinner but he arises out of the water a "new creature" in Christ Jesus (born again) - cleansed by the blood of Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit. The ordinance of Christian baptism is (and always has been) the means of entrance into “the kingdom of God” as the believer is “baptized into Christ Jesus” - baptized into the body of Christ. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death" Romans 6:3. To answer your question – yes, one must be immersed in water to “enter the kingdom of God.”When we are "baptized into his death," you need to see that there is FIGURATIVE language being used in that passage, let's open that old KJV to Romans Ch. 6, verses 3-6:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In verses 4-5 we see simile being used (comparison using "like" or "as"). Like/likeness occurs a total of three times, illustrating that the baptism symbolizes our death/burial to sin and our resurrection to a new life. It is a beautiful, SYMBOLIC act of obedience with no saving merit that identifies the believer with his Savior, and it is commanded of all who believe. As for verse 6, let's jump ahead to Galatians 2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


In Gal. 2:20, Paul was talking about how he was united to his Lord and Savior by faith and nothing else.

This "water gospel," commonly known as "baptismal regeneration" is a Galatianistic gospel that is accursed by God (Gal. 1:8-9). As somebody who got misled by it early on in my Christian walk after initially accepting Christ through the TRUE gospel of salvation by GRACE ALONE, through FAITH ALONE, in CHRIST ALONE, I feel it my duty to oppose this false gospel that cannot save.

threebigrocks
Aug 28th 2008, 03:04 AM
Why be baptised?
Why not?

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?


Precisely, lack of water ought to be the only thing that keeps one from being baptized!

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 03:08 AM
Precisely, lack of water ought to be the only thing that keeps one from being baptized!

That and not having accepted Christ, whence, why I oppose infant baptism...

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 03:17 AM
.

NO NO NO NO NO, NO! To see that the water in John 3:5 is NOT baptism, we have to examine the entire passage in detail, John 3:1-7 KJV:


Your emotionalism appears to have trumped your biblical hermeneutics - you are in error. It is the blood of Christ alone that save us from our sins but there are acts of obedience that believers submit to that delivers us out of power of darkness and enters us into the kingdom of God - the body of Christ. Clearly, both belief and baptism in water are the “fruit of faith” that precede “shall be saved”. Again, these are the very words of the Christ – they are straightforward – they are hard to miss unless one chooses to miss them.
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

TrustingFollower
Aug 28th 2008, 03:25 AM
Why be baptised?
Why not?

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?



Precisely, lack of water ought to be the only thing that keeps one from being baptized!

I agree with what you guys are saying. Baptism does not save a person faith does. If it were not true the thief on the cross next to Jesus would not be in paradise with him. We get baptized out of obedience to Christ. We are publicly proclaiming our faith to the world.

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 03:40 AM
I agree with what you guys are saying. Baptism does not save a person faith does. If it were not true the thief on the cross next to Jesus would not be in paradise with him. We get baptized out of obedience to Christ. We are publicly proclaiming our faith to the world.
A few of things regarding the thief – (1) he lived and died under the Old Covenant – not the New Covenant, (2) the Bible is silent on whether he was baptized or not – the Baptizer baptized many around Jerusalem, (3) the command by Jesus to “go…teach...baptize” was given after the death of the thief on his cross. The truth is the salvation of the thief in no way negates the clear command to be immersed in water “for the remission of sins”.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 03:55 AM
Your emotionalism appears to have trumped your biblical hermeneutics - you are in error. It is the blood of Christ alone that save us from our sins but there are acts of obedience that believers submit to that delivers us out of power of darkness and enters us into the kingdom of God - the body of Christ. Clearly, both belief and baptism in water are the “fruit of faith” that precede “shall be saved”. Again, these are the very words of the Christ – they are straightforward – they are hard to miss unless one chooses to miss them.
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

Really? Obviously the second half of Mark 16:16 doesn't seem to register, but he that believeth not shall be damned. Belief saves, unbelief condemns, he who believes BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN BAPTIZED is saved, he who believes and HAS BEEN BAPTIZED is saved, and the person who believes but has not yet been baptized, if his faith is genuine, WILL GET BAPTIZED OUT OF OBEDIENCE. So if baptism is so necessary for salvation, then how come Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:17 explicitly states that he was sent NOT to baptize, but to PREACH THE GOSPEL? BECAUSE BAPTISM AND THE GOSPEL ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! Paul tells us exactly what gospel it was that he was preaching in 1 Cor. 15:1-4:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That is the gospel, the death/burial/resurrection of Christ, scoring victory over sin, and how by believing on him as our Savior, we escape the punishment of damnation that our sins carry. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23). If you had to do something in addition, that would no longer make it a GIFT, a gift is something paid for in full by the party giving it. Christ did EVERYTHING, there's nothing else we need to do, salvation is 100% in God's hands, not 90% in his, 10% in ours. By being immersed, as outlined in Romans 6:3-5, we are obeying a command and identifying with our acceptance of Christ's payment for our sins, and it is SYMBOLIC, not SALVIFIC, as Paul was sent not to baptize, but to preach, why? Because it is the gospel that saves us, baptism and everything else FOLLOWS salvation (which comes from believing the gospel). To say that you need to be baptized in addition makes it NOT a gift. Baptismal Regeneration is a great lie straight out of the pits of hell, one of the greatest lies that the devil ever told based on taking passages like Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38 and many more out of context. For every verse that mentions baptism, there are double, maybe even triple, the amount of FAITH ALONE passages.

Ridin Red
Aug 28th 2008, 09:25 AM
Threebigrocks, my question was simple. Do we need baptism for salvation? I'm 45 years old, grew up in a German Bapist Church, very structured. I know faith is my salvation, and it is strong. Baptism is symbolic, yes midnightspaleglow has it, if I am obedient I will be baptized. But if I don't I will be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. Guys, I also believe the Bible has been written for every individual to live his or her life though God.
Opinions aside, we all must have Faith. Thanks, you guys are spreading the word!

graceforme
Aug 28th 2008, 11:28 AM
.

NO NO NO NO NO, NO! To see that the water in John 3:5 is NOT baptism, we have to examine the entire passage in detail, John 3:1-7 KJV:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus came to Jesus and acknowledged that he was who he was (the Son of God), and that's when Jesus spoke to him about being "born again." Nicodemus was confused by this and asked how he could be born a second time when he was already an old man. And that's when Jesus said, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The "water gospel" teachers love to interpret this as meaning baptism, but if you go verses 6-7, in verse 6, Jesus says That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and how are we born of the flesh? By the water of our mother's womb, so Nicodemus could not do this again. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is our regeneration by the Holy Spirit that places us inside the body of Christ and is a supernatural act performed by God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Basically, Jesus was saying that two births are necessary to enter into the kingdom of Heaven, our natural birth in the womb by water, plus a spiritual regeneration accomplished entirely by God.

When we are "baptized into his death," you need to see that there is FIGURATIVE language being used in that passage, let's open that old KJV to Romans Ch. 6, verses 3-6:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In verses 4-5 we see simile being used (comparison using "like" or "as"). Like/likeness occurs a total of three times, illustrating that the baptism symbolizes our death/burial to sin and our resurrection to a new life. It is a beautiful, SYMBOLIC act of obedience with no saving merit that identifies the believer with his Savior, and it is commanded of all who believe. As for verse 6, let's jump ahead to Galatians 2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


In Gal. 2:20, Paul was talking about how he was united to his Lord and Savior by faith and nothing else.

This "water gospel," commonly known as "baptismal regeneration" is a Galatianistic gospel that is accursed by God (Gal. 1:8-9). As somebody who got misled by it early on in my Christian walk after initially accepting Christ through the TRUE gospel of salvation by GRACE ALONE, through FAITH ALONE, in CHRIST ALONE, I feel it my duty to oppose this false gospel that cannot save.



Good words. Never in Scripture does water baptism refer to burial, but always to a cleansing. To understand the reason for this, we need to understand the place of water baptism in the program of God for the nation of Israel. Baptism is not simply a New Testament ordinance, but a practice firmly rooted in the Old Testament scriptures and God's program for the nation of Israel.

There are many examples that people use to support the need for water baptism. Most say, "If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me." Wrong!

We need to understand WHY Jesus was baptized in order to understand why baptism is not necessary today, and is in fact, not part of the program for us today.

Water baptism did not begin with John the Baptist. If we trace its development we can see that water baptism was a ceremonial cleansing that pertains to the kingdom promised to the nation of Israel.

God's stated purpose concerning the nation of Israel is that she is to be a "kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentile nations would obtain their blessings. Isaiah 61:6 says "But ye shall be named the priests of the Lord: men shall call you the ministers of our God."

This will be accomplished during the kingdom reign of Christ when Israel is dwelling in her land and the nations find salvation and blessing through her instrumentality.

All of this awaits Israel's redemption. The "IF ye will obey .... THEN ye shall be" principle of the law assured that the "knowledge of sin" would abound. Because of her failure, the nation of Israel soon found herself in need of a Redeemer. While the hope of Israel looked to the promised coming kingdom, the need of the nation for cleansing must first be faced.

Remember that of all the people or things to be baptized it was the priest who stood foremost. Exodus 29 gives the procedure for induction into the priest's office. Two very important steps of consecration are included:

First must come cleansing - a washing with water. (Exodus 29:4)

Second there was the anointing with oil: (Exodus 29:7)

Just as the sons of Aaron were the priests through whom the people of Israel could approach God, so the nation of Israel itself will one day be a "kingdom of priests and an holy nation", and the Gentiles will, through them, receive their blessings (salvation). Look at Gen. 12:1-3; 22:`17-18; Isaiah 60:1-3; Zech. 8:20-23. It is in this light that John the Baptist appears on the scene preaching his "baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel" (Acts 13:24)

John's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark1:4) was a means of national repentance and preparation to be the kingdom of priests that God had ordained them to be.

Simply put, Jesus also had to obtain the same ceremonial cleansing and anointing with oil in order to take His place as the High Priest. Keep in mind that Jesus came to minister to the Jewish nation. He was born under the law (Galatians 4:4-5) and taught under the law.

This gets really involved, and so I'm going to condense here - If water baptism is associated with cleansing the nation of Israel for its ministry in her kingdom, where does the baptism of Gentiles under the commission of Mt. 28:19 fit in?

Here, water baptims is again domonstrated to symbolize cleansing - again clearly associated with Israel's kingdom. The priests were not the only people to be baptized. In Lev 14:9 we find that the nations of Mt. 28:29 were considered unclean by Israel and would have to be baptized, or cleansed, in order to gain access to Israel's kingdom and acceptance into God's favor. Both Israel and the Gentiles needed to acknowledge their need of cleansing. Israel in order to be worthy to minister the things of God, and the Gentiles to be the recipient of those things.

The fact that water baptism pertains to Israel's kingdom program shows that it has no place at all in the program of God today. It was a ceremonial washing that was participated in until the nation of Israel and its program was set aside by God. (Acts 7)

With the fall of Israel, Paul raised up Paul and through him sent salvation to the Gentiles. (Acts 9). After this point in time, water baptism went through a change. (Acts 10) If you read this chapter you can see that there was a significant change from the program Peter had been working under. All the Gentiles had to do to receive the Holy Spirit was believe, while the previous requirement was the baptism of repentance. (Acts 2:38). In Acts 10 we find Peter (not understanding the "mystery program" hastily baptizing them, saying "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized?"

Water baptism was not functioning the same way as it had before with Israel. We see Paul's own attitude toward baptism reflected in 1 Cor. 1:14-17.

When God interrupted Israel's prophetic program and ushered in "the mystery", the baptism of Israel was also interrupted. As Israel diminished (Rom. 11:12) through the later Acts period, water baptism gradually diminished in importance and a new baptism took its place.

There is no priestly nation or class exalted above others. God now reconciles both Jews and Gentiles to Himself simply through faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross (Eph. 2:13-18).

When we trust Christ as Savior, we are at that moment "baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) and "baptized into Christ" (Gal. 3:27). No water ceremony is needed - the "one baptism" of the "one body" is performed by "one Spirit" - not by a preacher or priest. The concept of positional truth - of being "in Christ" - is the Spirit baptism. And so complete is our position in Christ that we are told "AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM ..." (Col. 2:10). Eph. 1:3 tells us this "Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

What could water baptism possibly accomplish that Christ has not already accomplished on the Cross? Not only does water baptism have no place in this dispensation of grace, but to practice it reflects on the finished work of Christ by trying to add something to it.

Many people say that water baptism is an "outward showing of an inner work." Many unsaved people get baptized - some denominations even baptize infants, thinking that they are saved by this ritual. If the changed heart of a person is not evidence enough of salvation, then baptism certainly won't show any thing more.

I know I've probably "opened a can of worms" here, but my only desire was to show that those who are basing their salvation on baptism are falling short, and placing themselves in a very dangerous position.

Many blessings to all.

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 11:31 AM
Really? Obviously the second half of Mark 16:16 doesn't seem to register


Obviously you still miss the truth that is set before you. The second clause of that verse does not negate the importance or the need for baptized in water – “but he that believeth not shall be damned” – this clause simply states that the one who refuses to believe whether baptized or un-baptized will be damned. The biblical truth remains - both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved per Jesus Christ. You can spin it any way you wish but truth remains the truth – one goes into the baptismal waters a sinner and through the working of the Holy Spirit comes out of the water a new man/woman in Christ Jesus – born of water and the Spirit.
“but he that believeth not shall be damned”

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot

DeafPosttrib
Aug 28th 2008, 12:41 PM
Many saying that John 3:3,5 - 'born of water' is speaking of spiritual birth from above. And they saying, John chapter 3 say nothing anything about water baptism. So, they say of John chapter 3 focus on spiritual birth -salvation from above. I feel that John chapter 3 seems do not suggest that baptism is exclude from that chapter.

Nicodemus thought, being born from water means physical birth, have to be enter mother's womb and born again second time.

Verse 6 tells us, clear, at first, all of us were born of flesh. In my understanding, that we received sin come from Adam according Romans 5:12. We received sin from our mother womb, we are all come from Adam. We are dead in sins. That why, we must be born again with spirit from above.

Verse 8, Christ described on spirit, that we do not see the spirit, but, the wind that we can feel it, it is the example of spirit is being moving.

I understand that is speak of spiritual birth.

Notice John 3:5 says, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee. 'Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

This verse seems do not give hint or suggest that baptism is not include or mentioned there. But, this verse tells us, that, we all are commanded to be born of water and spirit. There must be two things that we must be born again.

So, therefore, I feel that 'water' must be relate with baptism. Because, water is the pictured as being cleansed all sins away according Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5; & 1 Peter 3:21.

Otherwise, we cannot enter the kingdom of God(picture as salvation). That means, we cannot have eternal life(John 3:16). Unless, we must be born of baptism and received the Holy Spirit.

I believe John 3:5 is very clear refer with Acts 2:38 telling us that we must be repent of sins, baptize in the order of remission of sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.

SO, I believe baptize is very clear commanded from Jesus Christ. If we don't obey Christ's command, then we CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God. No argument. That's period.

Isn't it hard for you to get baptize to get be saved?? Baptism is the only first step of salvation. Actually, I believe, 'to believed & repent' is the first step of salvation before baptize. SO, when a person did believe in Jesus, then have to be baptize for obedience. So, this person is saved for obedience Christ's command.

Yes, to be baptized is necessary for salvation as what Christ commanded - John 3:3;5; Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15. If we refuse to be baptized, then that man we disobedience Christ. and we shall not enter into the kingdom of God, simple mean we cannot have eternal life with Christ, we would be end up in hell. No arugment. That's period.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 12:56 PM
So, therefore, I feel that 'water' must be relate with baptism. Because, water is the pictured as being cleansed all sins away


what does the bible say about cleansing?

eph 5: 26 : that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

take this with what Christ himself said:

john 15: 3 You are already clean from the word which I have spoken to you

other passages that show how we are "cleansed"

1 Cor 6: 11 - But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You see our washing is in the name of Christ. but it is performed by the holy spirit, not a man immersing us in water.

Titus 3 :5. Not by works of rightiosness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit

you see not by any good works, not even going to be baptised, but we are washed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. it is the spirit who does the washing, which is perfomed by the word. or the gospel.

and finally : col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body 8of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

we see two terms used to represent cleansing. both done not by the hands of man ( either perfoming physical circumcision or water baptism ) but by the hands of God ( the Holy Spirit ) who raised Christ from the dead.

thus to make the term "water " in john 3 to mean baptism because that is how we are cleansed would not be in holding to what scripture says we are cleansed by.

if john 3 refers to water, it referse to the baptising ministry of the holy spirit. not baptism in water performed by men.

Some hold that the water refers to the baptism of the holy spirit, and that spirit refers to the annointing ( comming into and sealing ) ministry of the holy spirit. We can use the levitical symbology to even back this up. as all priests had to be cleansed by water and annointed by oil, the water and oil a symbol of the HS who would make us all a nation of priests to our God, (rev 3)

however, to take 'water" to mean water baptism would be stretching it way and above what God intended it to mean.



SO, I believe baptize is very clear commanded from Jesus Christ. If we don't obey Christ's command, then we CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God. No argument. That's period.



If you have humbled yourself enough to repent. admit your guilt. and your need to change and need for a savior. and chosen to place your faith in the one who paid the price for your sins. you have been baptised. By God. this is before you even step foot near water.

so as you say. No argument. We can not and must not replace the holy spirits baptismal ministry, which John the baptist prohisied jesus would baptise us with, with the symbolic ministry of water baptism performed by men, For to do so I would say errs on coming close to blaspheming the holy spirit. as the pharisees were in danger of by saying Christ did his miracles by satand power. the only difference here is you are saying our washing is done by men, and not by the holy spirit himself.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 01:42 PM
Obviously you still miss the truth that is set before you. The second clause of that verse does not negate the importance or the need for baptized in water – “but he that believeth not shall be damned” – this clause simply states that the one who refuses to believe whether baptized or un-baptized will be damned. The biblical truth remains - both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved per Jesus Christ. You can spin it any way you wish but truth remains the truth – one goes into the baptismal waters a sinner and through the working of the Holy Spirit comes out of the water a new man/woman in Christ Jesus – born of water and the Spirit.
“but he that believeth not shall be damned”

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot

That is a great lie straight out of the pits of hell! If Paul was sent NOT to baptize, but to preach, that means preaching the gospel so people can have their souls be saved is of utmost importance, and baptism is secondary meaning, IT ISN'T NECESSARY. If it was, don't you think Paul would have said that he was sent to preach AND baptize? Let's look at the devil's favorite verses regarding baptism and see just how many verses there are that say "faith alone."

Satan's favorite verses to teach "baptismal regeneration"-
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38, 22:16
Romans 6:3-6
Galatians 3:27
Colossians 2:12
1 Peter 3:21

These are the main offenders, there are other, lesser verses that are verses pertaining to Spirit baptism, or like John 3:5 comparing one birth with another, which the baptismal regenerationists seem to take out of context, most notably 1 Cor. 12:13 (kind of difficult to take that passage out of context considering that it speaks for itself about the Spirit baptism).

Faith only, no baptism mentioned:

Luke 23:39-43
John 1:12-13, 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25-27
Acts 2:21 (before the BR crowd's beloved verse 38, WHAT HORROR!), 3:19-20, 10:43-47, 13:45-48, 15:7-11, 16:30-31, 26:16-18
Romans 3:24-28, 4:5, 4:16-5:9, 5:18-21, 6:23, 10:9-13
1 Corinthians 1:17 (almost singlehandedly draws the dividing line between the gospel and baptism), 15:1-4 (which describes the gospel in a nutshell)
Galatians 2:16, 3:2 (receiving the Spirit by the hearing of faith, NOT BY BAPTISM AS ACTS 2:38 SEEMS TO SAY), 3:26, 4:6
Ephesians 2:8-9
Colossians 2:5-6
Titus 3:5 (refers to Spirit baptism)-7
1 John 5:10-13
Revelation 3:20

So you see, that for the few verses about baptism, there are double, maybe even triple or more, the number of verses that show that we are justified solely by faith and nothing more, baptism included. To maintain that baptism is necessary is to rely on Christ as your HELPER, and not your SAVIOR, and you are putting yourself in terrible risk of not being saved. I hope your answer when you stand before the judgment seat about why you should be let into heaven is "because of what you (Christ) did for me on the cross and not anything that I did." Because if your answer is "because of what you did on the cross and what I did in a baptismal pool" these words are going to haunt you for all eternity as you are "baptized" in the Lake of Fire:

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Matt. 23)."

OH WHAT HORRIBLE WORDS TO HEAR INDEED! WORDS THAT WILL HAUNT YOU FOR ALL ETERNITY, AS YOU WRITHE AND SCREAM IN HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE AGONY! Remember, by your words are you justified, and by your words are you condemned (Matt. 12:37). I am doing this out of love, as someone who got misled for a brief period of time by this false teaching not too long after being saved by hearing the TRUE Gospel of salvation by GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE in CHRIST ALONE, I feel I need to warn people against the dangerous "water gospel."
Please, I've shown that the number of "faith without baptism" verses far outnumbers the verses about baptism, why don't you seem to see that?

With that said, I'll be praying that you see the error I've been trying to show you for so long as it is a very serious matter. Eternity, you know, is too long to be wrong.

valleybldr
Aug 28th 2008, 02:03 PM
That is a great lie straight out of the pits of hell! Ahh, so that's the "lost horizon.":idea: todd

DeafPosttrib
Aug 28th 2008, 02:08 PM
MidnightsPaleGlow,

Relax.

You think Satan's favorite verses such as: Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38; 22:16; Romans 6:3-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; & 1 Peter 3:21.


Probably, you seem dislike these verses, as these offend or hurt your feeling.

Paul asks: "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Gal. 4:16.

Many Christians were feel being offended hear words from Paul, made them angry.

Same with Pharisees. They were feel as offend from Jesus Christ, for told the truths. Made them angry, and want to kill Jesus so badly.

Jesus says, we shall know the truth, and truth makes us free - John 8:32.

Again, I ask you the same question.

Is baptize, too hard for you to do it, as what Christ commands?

Then, why argue with us as what we show you verses on baptize?

You should be aware that Matt. 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-16; and Acts 1:8, all are clearly great commission given from Christ, always apply to us, that we are ought to obey Him. If we don't obey him, then we cannot enter the kingdom of God. So, baptize is command and necessary for salvation.

Believe and baptize both always go together for salvation.

If, believe, but not baptized- cannot be saved.

If baptized, but not believe-cannot saved.

Christ clearly telling us, we must believe + baptized- saved according Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:15-16 telling very clear. We ought obey as what Christ said.

So, is baptize too hard for you to do it?

Then, why argue with us, but, not only argue with us, even, you argue with Christ's words?

We better listen and obey Christ's words, and just do it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 02:21 PM
Oh no, I've been baptized, I was just recently rebaptized because the first time around I was misled into believing that it was a salvation issue, and once I realized I was saved before baptism, I repented. I recently resigned from the church that I was once a part of over the issue of baptismal regeneration, as I had been in disagreement with the doctrine silently for a few months before I finally broke my silence in mid-July. I was baptized the right way the second time around about two weeks ago, knowing that it's a symbolic act of obedience that we are commanded to do, not something that is essential for salvation like I was misled into believing the first time around.

Ridin Red
Aug 28th 2008, 02:34 PM
Midnightspaleglow, may I ask why you felt the need to be rebaptized? Do you feel the first time was not a true hearted believe? Also what is the proper way to be baptized?
Full immersion, sprinkle on the head, what is right?

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 02:38 PM
Is baptize, too hard for you to do it, as what Christ commands?

Then, why argue with us as what we show you verses on baptize?


I then must ask you, Is it to hard for you to understand there is a baptism performed by the holy spirit. like John the baptist prophisied, Jesus proclaimed would happen, and peter witnessed?

Why do you want to replace a work perfomed by man with a work performed by God?

Again, we are not arguing no one should ever be baptised, quite the contrary, God commanded it. and we all should do it. Yet God also commanded to take the lords supper often. He commanded us to never forsake the assembling of ourselves together, To love our neight, even love our enemies, yet non of these will save us. they are the results of our salvation. the result of being baptised By god the holy spirit.

I leave you with this. from Johns own mouth.

Matt 3:11-12 I (John the Baptist) indeed baptise with water unto (because of) repentance. Be he (christ) Who is comming after me is mightier than I , whose sandal straps I am not worth to lose. He will BAPTIZE with the holy spirit and with Fire. His winowing fan is in his hands, and he will thoroughly clean out his threshing floor. and gather the wheat into the barn. But he will burn up the chaff with unquentiable Fire"


Everyone will be baptized by God..Either by the Holy Spirit or by Fire..Holy Spirit baptism is complet baptism in his death and his body, (rom 6 with 1 cor 12) it is the winnowing fan used to gather the wheat ( Gods children ) into the barn( heaven)

..Fire baptism is complete immersion in the lake of Fire given to all who do not believe..

Either your baptised by the holy spirit,

or your baptised into the lake of fire.

the choice is yours. Water is not even an issue. John refusted that by saying his baptism was good. But the one christ will do is even better for it is pure and complete.

Jesus even repeated this when he said you were indeed baptisd in water, but will be baptised in the holy spirit not many days from now.

if water baptism was the pure baptism that enabled eternal life. there would have been no need for baptism of the holy spirit later, the disciples would already have been purified, as they were all baptised in water.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 28th 2008, 02:43 PM
Midnightspaleglow, may I ask why you felt the need to be rebaptized? Do you feel the first time was not a true hearted believe? Also what is the proper way to be baptized?
Full immersion, sprinkle on the head, what is right?

I was planning on being baptized after first accepting Christ last fall, but my busy schedule at the time was keeping me from doing so, and in my desire to want to obey that command despite my lack of time to do it, I got misled by the water teachers and was worried, thinking to myself, "oh no, apparently I have to do something else?" This put a sense of fear into me that I wasn't saved, and that if I were to die I'd still end up in hell, I finally made the time to do it at a baptismal regenerationist church. Not too long after doing it, I began questioning whether baptism was salvific or symbolic, and after much searching found it to be SYMBOLIC, and repented and put my trust back in the Lord SOLELY. After leaving the aforementioned church last month, I decided I wanted to be rebaptized, realizing that it is a symbolic act, not SALVIFIC, and that we are commanded to do it, so I wanted to obey this command under what I viewed to be the correct pretenses this time around. I believe that full body immersion "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is the only valid way to baptize.

Br. Barnabas
Aug 28th 2008, 06:58 PM
Forgive me for not having read all the responses but I will say the same thing that I say everytime something like this comes up. God is not bound to the sacraments, thus if one is not baptized or has never taken Holy Eucharist or done any of the other sacraments, they can still be saved. God will have mercy on who he has mercy. However, we as Christians are bound to the sacraments and should do them and want to do them.

If we look throughout history believers were either baptized in infancy or if they were converts later in their life then they waited to be baptized until before they died because they did not want to sin after being baptized. Also believers were a lot of the time if they did not wait until near death, they were, for lack of a better word, trained on how to live a good Christian life before they were baptized.

Baptism is a very big deal and we as believers are bound to it our Savior gave us the example, why would we not follow his example?

But is it needed for salvation I would say yes and no. I would say to be a good Christian one would need to be baptized, can one be "saved" without it yes, but God will have to have mercy on them, possibly more mercy then on others. But again God is not bound to the sacraments, however, we as Christians are bound to the sacraments. I would say the same about a person who claimed to be Christian but had never taken Holy Eucharist, or communion.

Ridin Red
Aug 28th 2008, 08:15 PM
I've been reading.

Acts 16:30-31 (King James Version)

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:40 (King James Version)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47-51 (King James Version)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 3:15-16 (King James Version)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We all are not perfect, we all sin, and some break commandments. In the end God will forgive us if we have the faith. Baptism is a command of God, an obedience. If I fall short of this command in my heart I feel God will forgive me if I don't publicly immerse
myself. The Holy Spirit is in the heart.
Amen.

uric3
Aug 28th 2008, 08:35 PM
After skimming through this tread I feel I need to address a few things... and forgive me if these have already been address and I just over looked them.

1. The thief on the cross - I hear so many say baptism is not needed because the thief didn't need it... this is not the case... two reason the thief did not need to be baptized.
A.) He was under OT law at the time the NT was not in affect read Heb 9:13-17

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."


We clearly see in verse 16, 17 that a testament is of no affect while the testator liveth. So Baptism wasn't a requirement at that time...


B.) Baptism washes away sins read Acts 22:16 and 1st Peter 3:20-21. However while Christ was on earth he could forgive sins. Mark 2:9-10


Thus the thief did not have to be baptized because he was under OT law and Christ could forgive sins.


2. I saw the question asking how is baptism preformed - it is an immersion every example you have both the baptizer and the person being baptized go into the water look at Acts 8:36-ff or Rom 6 as mentioned earlier. "We are buried with him..." how do we bury things? Sprinkle dirt on it no we completely cover it.


3. I saw statements stating that its not needed(symbolic) - Several passages state otherwise. Below are a few with some comments.


Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."


And is a key word here we all had math and understand it... if someone says go get some eggs and bread you get both... same thing here believe and baptized are requirements.


1st Peter 3:20-21 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"


We see here that baptism doth now also save us... key part is in the () its not taking a bath or getting wet to wash away the filth of the flesh... its the answer in a good consciense toward God. Its a step of faith... a good analogy is found in 2nd Kings 5 Naaman thought dipping in water was stupid to... however its all about faith.


Another passage is Acts 10 during the conversion of Cornelius look at verses 46-48


"6For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."


We see that Peter states in 47 can any forbid Water that these should not be baptized. Then in 48 "He Commanded them to be baptized... wasn't an option it was commanded for a reason.


Lastly if its symbolic to show others your saved status then why was the eunuch in Acts 8 baptized in the middle of no where on the side of the road? It wasn't to symbolize or who anyone anything the reason it was done on the side of the road was because of urgency if you notice every conversion that is under NT order they are baptized that same hour... look at the jailer in Acts 16... if it can wait why do it in the wee hours of the morning while ppl are sleeping and you need a light to see?


One last commit in case anyone is thinking about the baptism of John just want to point out people was re-baptized in the name of Christ afterward... read Acts 19:1-7 for more details.


Hope this helps

uric3
Aug 28th 2008, 08:45 PM
I've been reading.

Acts 16:30-31 (King James Version)

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:40 (King James Version)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47-51 (King James Version)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 3:15-16 (King James Version)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We all are not perfect, we all sin, and some break commandments. In the end God will forgive us if we have the faith. Baptism is a command of God, an obedience. If I fall short of this command in my heart I feel God will forgive me if I don't publicly immerse
myself. The Holy Spirit is in the heart.
Amen.

Just saw this wanted to make a few comments.

Acts 16:30-ff please read all of it... notice a few verses

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."

Notice verses 32 and 33 you left out... we see They preached unto them the word of the lord in verse 31 they was just stating you'll have to believe the message we'll preach unto you. Well what was preached "baptism" because guess what the same hour that night him and his house was baptized... if it can wait why do it that very hour and in the middle of the night?

Eph 2:8-9 I agree with you here we are not saved by works so no man can boast... however how can a man boast when hes done what he has been ask to do?

Its like if you get a homework assignment at school can you boost that you did it? Guess what so did everyone else... the boosting thats stated here is trying to see who can help the most poor or I'm better because I pay $100 a week in the collection etc... Please read James 2:19 and following as well... faith without works is dead!

John 6:40 - agree those who believe on him he will raise up. Jesus also stated we should keep his commandments... so if we believe him we'll be baptized.

Same thing for John 6:47-51 and for John 3:15-16. If we truly believe we'll obey.

One last thing to mention is the conversion of Paul in Acts 9 a lot of people state it was saved after the light shined on him... however I don't think thats the case. If so then Paul is the saddest convert ever... he doesn't eat or drink for days until Ananias told him what to do... which was to be baptized Acts 22:16 then he was happy and acted like a convert.

Anyway hope that helps.

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 10:16 PM
These are the main offenders, there are other, lesser verses that are verses pertaining to Spirit baptism, or like John 3:5 comparing one birth with another, which the baptismal regenerationists seem to take out of context, most notably 1 Cor. 12:13 (kind of difficult to take that passage out of context considering that it speaks for itself about the Spirit baptism)….

So you see, that for the few verses about baptism, there are double, maybe even triple or more, the number of verses that show that we are justified solely by faith and nothing more, baptism included.


Let me see if I can follow your “logic” here – because you do not like scriptural passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6:3-6, etc. that clearly teach the essential nature of baptism in water and because there are many verses that do not have the word “baptism” mentioned you just waive your hands wildly in the air and dismiss the clear teaching found in Holy Writ regarding essntial nature of baptism in God's redemptive plan. What kind of logic do you follow? What method of hermeneutics do you practice? The truth remains the truth, of course – baptism was commanded by God and any command of God becomes essential the moment it is commanded. The truth also remains (a truth you have not refuted) - baptism in water coupled with belief come before one “shall be saved” per Jesus Christ and your notion to the contrary holds absolutely no water (no pun).

You may wish upon your lucky star for baptism to go away but the Book contains the baptism and baptism is an ordinance instituted and given to the Lord’s church by Jesus Himself – until He comes again and it will not go away. You can sweep it under the carpet – you can malign it - you can dismiss it if you choose but it remains what it is - a command from God to be obeyed by ALL of His people. It is not an option and it is the ordinance that puts the believer “into Christ” – into His kingdom on earth. To be baptized in water "calling on the name of the Lord" is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself…it is God’s work.
For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do? ~ Martin Luther

losthorizon
Aug 28th 2008, 10:22 PM
We all are not perfect, we all sin, and some break commandments. In the end God will forgive us if we have the faith. Baptism is a command of God, an obedience. If I fall short of this command in my heart I feel God will forgive me if I don't publicly immerse
myself.


The questions that beg – (1) does what we “feel” in our hearts trump what is written in God’s word? Jesus indisputably taught that both belief and baptism in water take place before one “shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). (2) Why would one who believes in the name of Jesus Christ refuse to obey the Lord in baptism? It makes no sense – does it?

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 11:12 PM
Thus the thief did not have to be baptized because he was under OT law and Christ could forgive sins.

that fallacy of this thought is the thought that people in the OT were saved differently than we are today. If one reads hebrews you would clearly see no one was saved by following OT law ( even though baptism was a part of OT law, All priests and gentile converts were required to be baptised)

Paul in Romans chapter 4 gives us a clear example. Abraham was justified by faith apart from the law. David, in one of his psalms states quite clearly God did not desire sacrifice and burnt offering, he desired david have a true repentant heart, and trust Him, to one day take his sins away.



2. I saw the question asking how is baptism preformed - it is an immersion every example you have both the baptizer and the person being baptized go into the water look at Acts 8:36-ff or Rom 6 as mentioned earlier. "We are buried with him..." how do we bury things? Sprinkle dirt on it no we completely cover it.



Althought I agree with immersion ( even the greek word means to be immersed) I disagree with your interpretation of romans 6. Romans 6 is the work of the holy spirit baptising us, or immersing, placing into, the death of Christ. Not a man immersing us in water. these are two seperate accounts. One saves us. one gets us wet.



We see here that baptism doth now also save us... key part is in the () its not taking a bath or getting wet to wash away the filth of the flesh... its the answer in a good consciense toward God. Its a step of faith... a good analogy is found in 2nd Kings 5 Naaman thought dipping in water was stupid to... however its all about faith.



Again I must disagree. the context of the passage is the flood. the waters of the flood, although the tool of Gods judgment on earth ) raised noah and his family, taking them out of judgment. and just like the waters of the flood symbolises what saves us. the water of baptism also symbolises,

not the removal of filth of the flesh. it does not remove sin from the soul, it does not save, but is the answer of a good conscious towards god. Then he clarifies what does save. the ressurection of Christ.



Another passage is Acts 10 during the conversion of Cornelius look at verses 46-48


"6For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."



if you read the passage in acts where peter talks of this even. you will see Peter acknowledges that cornelious and his family where baptised by the holy spirit. before they were baptised in water. baptism of the holy spirit saves. Water baptism follows.

hope this helps

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 11:19 PM
Eph 2:8-9 I agree with you here we are not saved by works so no man can boast... however how can a man boast when hes done what he has been ask to do?

Yes, Can a man who is baptised in fron of a thousand people boast of the fact he was seen by more than the one baptised in front of none?

Can a man who walks ten miles boast about the fact he walked ten miles.

can a man baptised in icy water boast about the fact he was baptised in cold. and suffered because of it.

people were even boasting about who baptised them in the NT, and paul had to shut them down.

Don't fool yourself into thinking any work we perform can not be boasted about.


Its like if you get a homework assignment at school can you boost that you did it? Guess what so did everyone else... the boosting thats stated here is trying to see who can help the most poor or I'm better because I pay $100 a week in the collection etc...

being proud about something YOU DID is putting yourself up, and taking credit for what YOU did. it does not matter what it is about. this is a foolish comment.. to say since everyone can boast about it does not make it boasting.

Please read James 2:19 and following as well... faith without works is dead!

And james. Faith without works is dead. If you HAVE NO FAITH ( dead faith) YOU WILL HAVE NO WORKS. and your lack of works proves you had no faith.

James did NOT contradict Paul


John 6:40 - agree those who believe on him he will raise up. Jesus also stated we should keep his commandments... so if we believe him we'll be baptized.

No one is denying we should be baptised in water. The question is whether baptism in water is a requirement for salvation.

By your above quote. All of Gods commandments would need to be complted in order to be saved. thus salvation would be from works.

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 11:22 PM
The questions that beg – (1) does what we “feel” in our hearts trump what is written in God’s word? Jesus indisputably taught that both belief and baptism in water take place before one “shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). (2) Why would one who believes in the name of Jesus Christ refuse to obey the Lord in baptism? It makes no sense – does it?

I must say. one who places water baptism above holy spirit baptism in an attempt to replace it makes no sense to me at all..

and I must warn, just like jesus warned the pharisees for attempting to give satan credit for the work of the holy spirit.

when you give man the credit for the work of the holy spirit in baptism in christs death, burial and body. you risk commiting blasphemy of the holy spirit.

and as jesus warned them. you are in danger, because this sin will NEVER be forgiven.

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 01:05 AM
that fallacy of this thought is the thought that people in the OT were saved differently than we are today.


Was the command to be baptized “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” given to those who lived under the OT or only those who live and die under the NT? Was Jesus the great high priest under the OT? Do Christians live under the Law of Moses today or are they under the law of Christ?


Althought I agree with immersion ( even the greek word means to be immersed) I disagree with your interpretation of romans 6. Romans 6 is the work of the holy spirit baptising us, or immersing, placing into, the death of Christ. Not a man immersing us in water. these are two seperate accounts. One saves us. one gets us wet.
Of course you are quite mistaken – all scholars agree the baptism of Romans 6 is a burial in water (the H2O type)...we are buried with him by baptism into death".
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."—Romans 6:3-4

I shall not enter into controversy over this text, although over it some have raised the question of infant baptism or believers' baptism, immersion or sprinkling. If any person can give a consistent and instructive interpretation of the text, otherwise than by assuming believers' immersion to be Christian baptism, I should like to see them do it. I myself am quite incapable of performing such a feat, or even of imagining how it can be done. I am content to take the view that baptism signifies the burial of believers in water in the name of the Lord, and I shall so interpret the text. ~ Charles Spugeon

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 11:34 AM
Was the command to be baptized “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” given to those who lived under the OT or only those who live and die under the NT? Was Jesus the great high priest under the OT? Do Christians live under the Law of Moses today or are they under the law of Christ?

No A jews sign of their covenant was circumcision. It represented cleansing. and was a symbol of the spiritual act God was going to do.

Water baptism replaced this symbol of Cleansing, and is a sign of the new covenant. Niether one will save, or has ever saved anyone.


Of course you are quite mistaken – all scholars agree the baptism of Romans 6 is a burial in water (the H2O type)...we are buried with him by baptism into death".

All Scholars?? So we listen to men now and Not God?? And your wrong, all scholars do not. Baptism is a verb. it is the death we are being baptised into, it is an action taking place. there is NO WATER MENTIONED. to add water is to add to the word.


I shall not enter into controversy over this text, although over it some have raised the question of infant baptism or believers' baptism, immersion or sprinkling. If any person can give a consistent and instructive interpretation of the text, otherwise than by assuming believers' immersion to be Christian baptism, I should like to see them do it. I myself am quite incapable of performing such a feat, or even of imagining how it can be done. I am content to take the view that baptism signifies the burial of believers in water in the name of the Lord, and I shall so interpret the text. ~ Charles Spugeon

you can chose what you want to believe. Baptism is an action taking place. The death and burial is the iten of which the baptism is being done. We are immersed, or placed into vital union with the death and burial of Christ. this can only be done by God himself. It can not be performed by a man immersing us in water. period!

again I warn you about giving man credit for the work of the holy spirit in the act of our salvation.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 29th 2008, 01:57 PM
I must say. one who places water baptism above holy spirit baptism in an attempt to replace it makes no sense to me at all..

and I must warn, just like jesus warned the pharisees for attempting to give satan credit for the work of the holy spirit.

when you give man the credit for the work of the holy spirit in baptism in christs death, burial and body. you risk commiting blasphemy of the holy spirit.

and as jesus warned them. you are in danger, because this sin will NEVER be forgiven.

I never even thought of that.

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 02:40 PM
Water baptism replaced this symbol of Cleansing, and is a sign of the new covenant. Niether one will save, or has ever saved anyone.


You are once again confused and erecting your silly straw man – no one is claiming the water of baptism saves anyone – is does not. The blood of Christ completely and finally saves us from our sins. Baptism simply points us to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ – it is the “answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” as we are baptized (H2O) into His death.
"...eight souls were saved by water"... The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3)

See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized? And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip" (Acts 8)

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22)
All Scholars?? So we listen to men now and Not God?? And your wrong, all scholars do not. Baptism is a verb. it is the death we are being baptised into, it is an action taking place. there is NO WATER MENTIONED. to add water is to add to the word.What scholars write is certainly not “God-breathed” but they do have biblical insights through specialized study that many do not have and they all see a burial in water in the baptism mentioned in Romans 6 – why – because it is a reference to immersion in water – a fact that is hard to miss unless one chooses to protect a non-biblical notion or one suffers from hydrophobia..."I am content to take the view that baptism signifies the burial of believers in water in the name of the Lord, and I shall so interpret the text" ~ Spurgeon. ;)
"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot, commentary on Colossians
you can chose what you want to believe. Baptism is an action taking place. The death and burial is the iten of which the baptism is being done. We are immersed, or placed into vital union with the death and burial of Christ. this can only be done by God himself. It can not be performed by a man immersing us in water. period!
I will choose to believe God’s word as we all should do and it plainly reveals that as one is immersed in water the Holy Spirit performs the circumcision of the heart that places us "in Christ Jesus" - "born of water and the Spirit". Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ – it is essential to the gospel of grace, instituted and commanded by the Christ (it is not optional). This is a fact you cannot refute. Baptism like belief is a work - ie – they are both the "work of God"… “Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God: to believe in the one whom he has sent." Whatever belief is to salvation so too is baptism per Jesus Christ…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…” The NT does not know of an un-baptized believer.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 03:00 PM
You are once again confused and erecting your silly straw man – no one is claiming the water of baptism saves anyone – is does not. The blood of Christ completely and finally saves us from our sins. Baptism simply points us to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ – it is the “answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” as we are baptized (H2O) into His death.


no your confused. your confused every time you place the letters (H2O) after the word baptism infiring that baptism in and of itself means to be immersed only in water.

It is not that way in scripture. nor its it this way in classical greek writings. Baptism is used as a word to denote the placing of a person or thing into another thing. To say water is the only means of that things is outright wrong.

Revelation tells us when christ returnes he will return having dipped ( baptizo ) his robe in blood. no water is reference here, yet the same greek word is used.


"...eight souls were saved by water"... The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3)

yeah your right, and how many souls were killed by that same water. Notice the ones killed were killed because that water immersed them. Noah and his family rode "ABOVE" the water, thus were not baptised into that water, thus servived.

Peter is saying the water of baptism, like the water of the flood symbolises that which does truely save us. the spiritual water, or the holy spirit. who because of the ressurection of Christ can save us.


no one is claiming the water of baptism saves anyone – is does not

yet you claim if one is not baptised in water, he is not saved. thus baptism is ESSENTIAl in your mind. which is a lie!


"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot,

How about this. Baptism of the Holy SPirit. the act of the holy spirit taking us back through the centuries and placing us in the literal death and burial of Christ where our sins are washed away. Then this same holy spirit immersing us in the body of Christ. where we are sealed by that same spirit of God, who is the guarantee of our salvation.

Baptism is the perfect word, because it meant total immersion. We are not dipped or sprinkled in the death of Christ. we are totally immersed in it. thus our souls are completely clean, not just partially clean.

Being baptised into the body is a complete immersion. we are not dipped or sprinkled. where parts of our bodies hang out. free for satan to pull us out. we are, just like noah and his family, completely sealed in the ark (body of Christ) and no man can break that seal.

this is eternal life. eternial life that can not be found in the baptismal waters you profess.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 29th 2008, 03:25 PM
"born of water and the Spirit".

I've already shot this down as NOT meaning baptism, John 3:5 is using figurative language to state that our natural birth in the womb (water) along with our spiritual rebirth accomplished by the Holy Spirit are what gets us into Heaven, read verse 6 directly below it if you don't believe me. Read that entire passage IN CONTEXT please. Remember in Revelation how the "second death" is mentioned a number of times. So being born of water and the Spirit, when you examine John 3:1-18, is quite clearly communicating this message: If your only born once, then you're gonna die TWICE (the second death spoken of in Revelation), but if you're born TWICE, you'll only die ONCE. This passage, is quite clearly talking about justification solely by faith.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 03:30 PM
If your only born once, then you're gonna die TWICE (the second death spoken of in Revelation), but if you're born TWICE, you'll only die ONCE. This passage, is quite clearly talking about justification solely by faith.

Never heard or thought of this. Thank you!!

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 03:32 PM
no your confused. your confused every time you place the letters (H2O) after the word baptism infiring that baptism in and of itself means to be immersed only in water.


Did Jesus institute and command baptism in water in His commission to take the gospel to the entire world? Of course He did – it is an immersion in water where one’s sins are “washed away” by the blood of Christ – “arise and be baptized and wash away your sins…”
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)



yeah your right, and how many souls were killed by that same water. Notice the ones killed were killed because that water immersed them. Noah and his family rode "ABOVE" the water, thus were not baptised into that water, thus servived.Of course it is “right” it is right because it is what the Book teaches and the simple biblical facts remain true regardless of your continued confusion – water (H2O) separated the eight souls in the Ark who were “saved by water” – H2O separated them from the wicked world. Baptism in water is the anti-type under the NT – baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and points us to “the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. When the sinner goes down into the grave of water he/she is expressing to the world there has been a change of heart and a submission to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ – thus the one "buried" (immersed in water) rises up out of the water a “new creature” in Christ Jesus - "born again" of water and the Spirit. Baptism is a picture of our participation in His death, burial and resurrection as we are buried in water and rise anew out of the water to serve Him. To misunderstand this concept is to miss much and it is taught in the Book for all to see.


yet you claim if one is not baptised in water, he is not saved. thus baptism is ESSENTIAl in your mind. which is a lie!So I am a liar because I disagree with you? Is everyone who dares disagree with you also a liar? Once again - any command from God is essential the moment He commands. Baptism is the initiatory rite that puts one into the body of Christ – the Lord’s church. This has been true since the beginning of the NT and it will remain true until He comes again – this you cannot refute. You need to re-think your error. :)

uric3
Aug 29th 2008, 03:35 PM
Only problem with you thought process is that Holy Spirit Baptism only was promised to one group of people not everyone... anyone else who got the Holy Spirit got it by the laying on of the Apostles hands...

Look at all that passages that refer to it... Christ is only addressing the apostles and no one else. Look at Pentecost only Peter with the eleven are baptized with it notice Acts 2:14

Notice all the other passages that go with it...

Acts 8:1-18 Notice verse 12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Notice that all those who believed Phillips preaching where baptized... it was water baptism... how do we know that? Read verse 16... it obviously wasn't of the Holy Spirit(but as mentioned before only promised to the apostles). So how did they get the Holy Spirit and be able to speak in tongues etc? Read on verse 17, 18 tells us...

It was by the laying on the hands of the who... Apostles.... Simon even noticed this... not just anyone could do it... only the apostles had that power...

Notice also Acts 19:1-7 we several people get re-baptized in water... then how do they receive the holy spirit? Notice verse 6 we see Paul laid his hands on them...

Notice another difference the apostles who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit had all the gifts... speak in tongues, heal, raise the dead etc... those who got the gifts by the laying on of hands only got one gift... whether it be tongues, interpret, etc... thats why you have 1st Cor 12-14.

Am I saying the Holy Spirit has no role today? Of course not... we just are out of the age of spiritual gifts because we no longer have apostles to lay hands any more. Why because no one meets the qualifications mentioned in Acts 1:20-26.

So do we still get the Holy Spirit yes... we get the gift of the Holy Spirit but thats different than the baptism of which only the apostles received. When do we get this gift of the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:37-38 says once we are baptized...

If you can think of anyone else who got the baptism of the Holy Sprint as Acts 2 please let me know because after that all I see if the apostles laying their hands on those that receive it.

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 03:38 PM
I've already shot this down as NOT meaning baptism, John 3:5 is using figurative language to state that our natural birth in the womb (water) along with our spiritual rebirth accomplished by the Holy Spirit are what gets us into Heaven, read verse 6 directly below it if you don't believe me. Read that entire passage IN CONTEXT please. Remember in Revelation how the "second death" is mentioned a number of times. So being born of water and the Spirit, when you examine John 3:1-18, is quite clearly communicating this message: If your only born once, then you're gonna die TWICE (the second death spoken of in Revelation), but if you're born TWICE, you'll only die ONCE. This passage, is quite clearly talking about justification solely by faith.
I will respectfully disagree - the “new birth” is one birth that consists of two elements - “water and Spirit” and it clearly includes the outward administration of water (a burial) combined with the *cleansing of the heart* through the operation of the Holy Spirit.
Joh 3:5 of water and of the Spirit — A twofold explanation of the “new birth,” so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze_36:25-27), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. Already had the symbol of water been embodied in an initiatory ordinance, in the baptism of the Jewish expectants of Messiah by the Baptist, not to speak of the baptism of Gentile proselytes before that; and in the Christian Church it was soon to become the great visible door of entrance into “the kingdom of God,” the reality being the sole work of the Holy Ghost (Tit_3:5). ~ A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

TrustingFollower
Aug 29th 2008, 03:39 PM
One question for all here. If we are to strive to be more Christ like in our walk and faith in Jesus, then why would you not want to be baptized? Jesus was baptized and I would think that if he thought it something necessary for himself why rebel against it. Now baptism does not save us, but it is beneficial to our faith in him.

Luke 3

21 ¶Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 03:42 PM
Did Jesus institute and command baptism in water in His commission to take the gospel to the entire world? Of course He did – it is an immersion in water where one’s sins are “washed away” by the blood of Christ – “arise and be baptized and wash away your sins…”


then against your own words, you are saying baptism is a requiremen for salvation. I must ask then why did you say this??



no one is claiming the water of baptism saves anyone – is does not


did you just catch yourself in your own lie??

secondly, Has God not used things to show the reality of things in the past?? Is it odd that Christ used the physical act of baptism in the first stages to help people faith grow. sonce there was no access to the bible?? can we find example of people having their sins washed before their were immersed in water later?? YESS!!

Acts 11: 15- 17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If Therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God??”

peter found it hard that anyone was washed before they were immersed in water also. because God was still teaching him. He was moving away from the physical. and trying to show the physical is nothing but a symbol of what actually happened spiritually.

are you denying baptism of the holy spirit?? are you saying it does not happen?? are you holding God back to do his work only when we do a physical act?? is salvation by grace through faith? or is it by works??



So I am a liar because I disagree with you?


Your a liar because you stated baptism does not save. yet you just showed that baptism saves. you went against your own words. and contradicted yourself.

again I ask. do you believe in baptism performed by the holy spirit??

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 03:44 PM
Only problem with you thought process is that Holy Spirit Baptism only was promised to one group of people not everyone... anyone else who got the Holy Spirit got it by the laying on of the Apostles hands...


the gentiles recieved the holy spirit while peter was talking to them. no laying on of hands, and no water baptism. thus your argument is null and void.

again God used physical signs in the begining to show who he was. as time went on the physical signs started to disapear, and the word of God started to take over without signs.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 29th 2008, 03:45 PM
Did Jesus institute and command baptism in water in His commission to take the gospel to the entire world? Of course He did – it is an immersion in water where one’s sins are “washed away” by the blood of Christ – “arise and be baptized and wash away your sins…”
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)Of course it is “right” it is right because it is what the Book teaches and the simple biblical facts remain true regardless of your continued confusion – water (H2O) separated the eight souls in the Ark who were “saved by water” – H2O separated them from the wicked world. Baptism in water is the anti-type under the NT – baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and points us to “the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. When the sinner goes down into the grave of water he/she is expressing to the world there has been a change of heart and a submission to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ – thus the one "buried" (immersed in water) rises up out of the water a “new creature” in Christ Jesus - "born again" of water and the Spirit. Baptism is a picture of our participation in His death, burial and resurrection as we are buried in water and rise anew out of the water to serve Him. To misunderstand this concept is to miss much and it is taught in the Book for all to see.

So I am a liar because I disagree with you? Is everyone who dares disagree with you also a liar? Once again - any command from God is essential the moment He commands. Baptism is the initiatory rite that puts one into the body of Christ – the Lord’s church. This has been true since the beginning of the NT and it will remain true until He comes again – this you cannot refute. You need to re-think your error. :)

YOU need to rethink your twisted ideology because it is putting you in terrible danger of not being saved. This is the message that me and others are trying to communicate, that you CAN NOT add anything to the finished work of Christ on the cross and think that it will somehow help you in salvation. By doing so and not repenting of it before you die means that you might hear these dreadful words when you appear before the judgment seat:

I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:23)

Why, because our righteous deeds are like filthy rags in the sight of God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, the only thing that can justify us is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and NOTHING ELSE: But unto him that WORKETH NOT but BELIEVETH ON HIM that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom. 4:5). This is the reality.

TrustingFollower
Aug 29th 2008, 03:49 PM
OK guys there is no need to make personal accusation and digs at each other. Discuss this as Christians or leave the discussion. No more calling each others liars and the such or the posts will be deleted with possible infractions issued.

uric3
Aug 29th 2008, 04:01 PM
the gentiles recieved the holy spirit while peter was talking to them. no laying on of hands, and no water baptism. thus your argument is null and void.

again God used physical signs in the begining to show who he was. as time went on the physical signs started to disapear, and the word of God started to take over without signs.

Ok you are referring to Acts 10 and the house of Cornelius

We want to study about Cornelius and his group being baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 10 & 11.


Cornelius and his group would be the first Gentiles converts to Jesus Christ. God sent Peter to preach to Cornelius and his group, the gospel of Jesus Christ. In vs. 34-43 we read of Peter's speech to this group.

Then something very interesting happen as Peter was speaking, notice in, Acts 10:44-45, "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." As with the apostles, there was no "seeking, praying, anointing, going to the altar, laying on of hands in order to get baptized in the Holy Ghost," God simply poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Peter in Acts 11 was "called out on the carpet" about what took place with the Gentiles. Peter rehearse this matter step by step of what took place.

Notice in, Acts 11:15-17, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" Observe that Peter calls this a baptism of the Holy Ghost, and notice also, that he has to refer all the way back to Acts 2, to what happened to the apostles on the day of Pentecost to find anything like it. Notice that statement again in verse 15, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." He did not say, "As I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on all the churches." Nor did he say, "As I begin to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them as on us since the beginning," as if this was an everyday occurrence. Beloved, we do not read of these people agonizing, on their knees praying, singing and shouting, seeking, anointing, going to the altar, laying on of hands, in order to get baptized in the Holy Ghost. Why was Cornelius and his group baptized in the Holy Spirit? In order to prove to the Jews that the Gentiles can be Christians, Acts 11:18.

Notice verse 15 as already stated it wasn't as if it was a something that happened to everyone... Peter even mentioned that it was the only time it had happened since the day of Pentecost. It was only done to prove a point to Peter and the Jews Present... everyone else through the laying on of hands as mentioned before.

I should have mentioned this with my earlier post however it slipped my mind.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 29th 2008, 05:49 PM
Baptism simply points us to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ – it is the “answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” as we are baptized (H2O) into His death.It is purely symbolic in its action and in no way salvific though, a baptism that God performs by faith, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is the salvific baptism (1 Cor. 12:13), the spiritual baptism that places us inside the body of Christ when we first believe. Baptism in water is our first act of obedience after we're saved, Romans 6:3-5 uses like/likeness, which is simile, a comparison with like or as, showing that by doing that first act of obedience after salvation, we are stating outwardly that we have died and been buried to sin, and risen to a new life, and baptism symbolizes this quite beautifully.


You can whine all you want and you can spin your story any way you choose but the baptism remains in the Book and you will have to deal with it and thus far you have not refuted any of the many scriptures provided. You are merely reduced to calling me a liar. Very sad but also very revealing of where you are coming from.The way I deal with it is that a salvific, spiritual baptism takes place the moment we receive Christ as savior, evidenced by Acts 10:43-47 and 1 Corinthians 12:13, a baptism in water takes place after we are saved and it symbolizes that we've BEEN saved. To not be water baptized is to be sinful and disobedient, and yes, if somebody claims to have faith in Christ, yet seems to willfully not obey this simple command, I have to bring into question whether or not that person has truly given their life over to Christ, since they seem to have a dead faith that isn't showing itself by any outward acts of obedience/works (James 2:17-19). But those works, water baptism included, are in no way part of salvation, but EVIDENCE of salvation. This is the point I've been stressing all along.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 06:59 PM
One question for all here. If we are to strive to be more Christ like in our walk and faith in Jesus, then why would you not want to be baptized? Jesus was baptized and I would think that if he thought it something necessary for himself why rebel against it. Now baptism does not save us, but it is beneficial to our faith in him.


Hi, and thanks for your response. This is not a debate about being baptised, All should be baptised, it is commanded. this is a debate about some who wish to add water baptism to the work of the gospel,. saying it is essential for salvation,

I hope you understand this.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 07:37 PM
Ok you are referring to Acts 10 and the house of Cornelius

We want to study about Cornelius and his group being baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 10 & 11.

I must ask. are you church of Christ?? The reason I ask is because you give the same answers they do. at which case I must caution you. Everyone is saved the same way. God does not baptise some with the holy spirit. then expect the rest of us to be immersed in water to recieve the same cleansing.

John the baptised stated to everyone that jesus would come and baptise with the holy spirit. the gift is to everyone. and it is what saves. the notion that God only baptised a few with the holy spirit unbiblical.

TrustingFollower
Aug 29th 2008, 07:56 PM
Baptize <G0911>

bapto -- pronounced: {bap'-to}

a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): -- dip.

Baptized <G0907>

baptizo -- pronounced: {bap-tid'-zo}

from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: -- Baptist, baptize, wash.

See Greek No. 911 <G0911>

From these descriptions from Strong's I would have to say that water is used indeed for the physical sign of baptism. Further more I also believe that it implies that total immersion is the correct way to be baptized.

Bryan43
Aug 29th 2008, 08:02 PM
Baptize <G0911>

bapto -- pronounced: {bap'-to}

a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or special sense, i.e. (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): -- dip.

Baptized <G0907>

baptizo -- pronounced: {bap-tid'-zo}

from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: -- Baptist, baptize, wash.

See Greek No. 911 <G0911>

From these descriptions from Strong's I would have to say that water is used indeed for the physical sign of baptism. Further more I also believe that it implies that total immersion is the correct way to be baptized.

the problem with this is one can be submerged in anything. it does not have to be water. Jesus we are told will have his robe dipped in blood, not water. Amany clasiic greek literature show baptism used as a form od dieing with blood or some type of die.

we also have a biblical accound of the children of isreal being baptised into moses. or placed in vital union with him.

John said jesus would baptise with the holy spirit and fire.

there are far to many examples. biblical and not. that denote baptism being used in ways that do NOT include water.

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 11:17 PM
if you do not believe this way. feel free to acknowledge. at which time I must ask you. when does the blood of Christ wash us from all sin? At the moment of faith. or the moment we allow a man to immerse us in water??
I have been very precise in what I have presented from the NT regarding baptism – I teach the full council of God on this matter. I will again allow the NT (Peter) to answer your inquiry. Those 3000 believers on the day of Pentecost asked Peter the most important question one can ask - “What shall we do to be saved?” Peter did not tell them what you are telling us - he did not say you are saved at the "moment of faith" and there is nothing else for you to do. No – Peter told them the truth - he presented the full council of God – he told them there was more they must DO – they must also repent and be baptized “for the remission of sins” and then they would receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)The NT teaches that baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of immersion into Christ Jesus - the baptism that is a burial in water….a baptism into His death. It cannot be any clearer. The fruit of faith – belief and baptism come before remission of sins exactly as Jesus proclaimed – “he that believes and is baptized ...shall be saved…”
"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

losthorizon
Aug 29th 2008, 11:32 PM
the problem with this is one can be submerged in anything. it does not have to be water.
But you continue to miss the point - the ordinance of baptism instituted and commanded by Christ is an immersion in water (H2O) not some other element. John the Baptist baptized Jesus in this same element (H2O) for our example. The NT does not know of an un-baptized (in water) Christian. Why kick against the pricks? The ordinance of baptism it part of the gospel of Christ – it always has been and it always will be.
1646 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, given by Christ, to be dispensed upon persons professing faith, or that are made disciples; who upon profession of faith, ought to be baptized, and after to partake of the Lord's Supper.

Matt. 28:18,19; John 4:1; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:37,38, 8:36,37, etc.

That the way and manner of dispensing this ordinance, is dipping or plunging the body under water; it being a sign, must answer the things signified, which is, that interest the saints have in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ: And that as certainly as the body is buried under water, and risen again, so certainly shall the bodies of the saints be raised by the power of Christ, in the day of the resurrection, to reign with Christ.

Matt. 3:16; Mark 15:9 reads (into Jordan) in Greek; John 3:23, Acts 8:38;
Rev. 1:5, 7:14; Heb. 10:22; Rom. 6:3,4,5,6; 1 Cor. 15:28,29. The word baptizo signifies to dip or plunge (yet so as convenient garments be both upon the administrator and subject with all modesty).

MidnightsPaleGlow
Aug 30th 2008, 02:16 AM
The ordinance of baptism it part of the gospel of Christ – it always has been and it always will be.

Please re-read 1 Corinthians 1:17 again, and keep re-reading it...

TrustingFollower
Aug 30th 2008, 02:26 AM
Please re-read 1 Corinthians 1:17 again, and keep re-reading it...
If you look at it in context we see that in fact Paul did baptize too. He is stating in verse 17 that his main job that he was sent to do is preach the gospel. Some of the people in the church of Corinth were in the same mind set as some of the people are today they though baptism saved them.

1 Corinthians 1

14 ¶I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

threebigrocks
Aug 30th 2008, 02:29 AM
Okay, to restate the already posted warning - everyone chill out. If this continues the thread will be closed.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 03:07 AM
But the OP asks the simple question – “Do we need to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God?” The biblical answer is yes per Jesus Christ – “ Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. This is straightforward and hard to miss.

Remember what Nicodemus said to Jesus, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Nicodemus' question was about physical birth. Jesus then showed Nicodemus the difference between the physical birth to which Nicodemus was referring and the spiritual birth to which Jesus was referring by answering: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again...."

When Jesus said "born of water" He was referring back to what Nicodemus said regarding physical birth - before women go into labor their water breaks (the amniotic fluid) and indicates that birth is about to occur. After referring to the physical birth by using the term "born of water" to illustrate same, Jesus then references "born of...the Spirit" as Spiritual birth. IOW, physical birth/spiritual birth = two births = born again. This makes logical sense because of Nicodemus asking about being born physically; Jesus follows' Nicodemus' line of thinking by using physical birth (born of water) to better illustrate what He means by "born again". Jumping to water baptism out of nowhere would have just been even more confusing to Nicodemus as an out-of-place non-sequitur.

While contrary to traditional denominational teaching about John 3:3-7, this Scripture is not talking about water baptism, but physical birth and spiritual birth.

Bryan43
Aug 30th 2008, 03:21 AM
I have been very precise in what I have presented from the NT regarding baptism – I teach the full council of God on this matter. I will again allow the NT (Peter) to answer your inquiry. Those 3000 believers on the day of Pentecost asked Peter the most important question one can ask - “What shall we do to be saved?” Peter did not tell them what you are telling us - he did not say you are saved at the "moment of faith" and there is nothing else for you to do. No – Peter told them the truth - he presented the full council of God – he told them there was more they must DO – they must also repent and be baptized “for the remission of sins” and then they would receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)
The NT teaches that baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of immersion into Christ Jesus - the baptism that is a burial in water….a baptism into His death. It cannot be any clearer. The fruit of faith – belief and baptism come before remission of sins exactly as Jesus proclaimed – “he that believes and is baptized ...shall be saved…”

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary


then by your own admission you are stating that our sins are washed at the moment of water baptism. thus water baptism is essential for salvation. against what you said earlier. why do you contradict what you say??

Bryan43
Aug 30th 2008, 03:22 AM
But you continue to miss the point - the ordinance of baptism instituted and commanded by Christ is an immersion in water (H2O) not some other element. John the Baptist baptized Jesus in this same element (H2O) for our example. The NT does not know of an un-baptized (in water) Christian. Why kick against the pricks? The ordinance of baptism it part of the gospel of Christ – it always has been and it always will be.


John the baptist said.

I indeed baptise in water. But he who comes after will baptise with the holy spirit and fire.

your logic is gone

threebigrocks
Aug 30th 2008, 03:29 AM
your logic is gone

With that, this thread is closed. I ask that a new thread of the same topic not be started immediately.