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legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 03:37 AM
Ok. I used to think I understood this completely. But after reading more I have become more confused.

Where in the bible does it say we "go to heaven" when we die?

I see many many passages where Jesus says we must do such and such to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or those who yada yada will not inherit the Kingdom etc.

Now ignoring the debates about whether the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are the same thing or not (I'm fairly certain they are), here is the question:

Is "going to heaven when we die" as the church teaches the same thing as entering the Kingdom of God?

Some additional points to consider:
1. Jesus said "The Kingdom of Heaven is now". Obviously we are not in heaven now, so that almost answers my first question.
2. Does our salvation give us entrance to the Kingdom, entrance to Heaven, or just save us from death?

What is everyone's thoughts on this? I'm looking for scriptural answers.

Please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here.

Legoman

matthew94
Aug 28th 2008, 03:59 AM
You are right to observe that the Bible says far less about 'going to heaven when you die' than most evangelicals would assume. Most of the Bible's message is focused on how we should live TODAY, not what will happen the moment we die. Christianity is really a 3 stage process.

1) Life before death
2) Life after death
3) Life AFTER 'life after death'

The Bible talks about how we should live in phase #1
Phase #2 is the least talked about in Scripture
Phase #3 (resurrection & new earth) is the core of Christian hope

We are part of the Kingdom already. When we die, we will be present with the Lord, but we won't be in our final state. We'll still be awaiting our resurrection bodies. The goal was never to stay in 'heaven' (if 'heaven' is thought of as a disembodied existence among the clouds). The whole point is to be resurrected (which means bodily) and to live forever on the new earth. This is why we pray, 'thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

In Christ,
matthew

VerticalReality
Aug 28th 2008, 12:02 PM
Just as we are part of the kingdom of heaven now we also have eternal life now. Most folks think of eternal life as some future occurrence after their death, but the Lord Jesus Christ declared that those who know Him have eternal life presently.

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 12:41 PM
2 excellent responses. I would like to add to what they already said,

you stated this:



I see many many passages where Jesus says we must do such and such to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or those who yada yada will not inherit the Kingdom etc.



as was said before. we are in the kingdom now. God wishes to give us much blessings while we are here, the things we do is to recieve those blessings. if we do not do them, or are in a state were we are not doing them, the blessings are cut off, and chasticement replaces.

however, eternal life is gained by faith only in the work of Christ.

we are saved, and Have eternal life here, our "position in christ" is eternal.

however, this very moment, we may be "in the flesh", or "in the spirit" which would be our condition. and depending on what our condition is is whether we recive belssing or chasticement

drew
Aug 28th 2008, 01:49 PM
The "Kingdom of Heaven" (as in the gospel of Matthew) and the "Kingdom of God" (as in the other three gospels) do not refer to "heaven" - the place you go (temporarily) when you die.

They refer to the inbreaking of God's rule on the earth and what it will be like.

legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 03:43 PM
Good answers so far, but I'm looking for more scriptural support.

Specifically, where in the bible does it say "we go to heaven when we die"?

RogerW
Aug 28th 2008, 04:12 PM
Good answers so far, but I'm looking for more scriptural support.

Specifically, where in the bible does it say "we go to heaven when we die"?

From the following passages we see that upon physical death Paul found great comfort in the knowledge that he would be with the Lord. Since the Lord is in heaven, that's where Paul would go upon physical death.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Many Blessings,
RW

Mike CP King
Aug 28th 2008, 06:24 PM
Good answers so far, but I'm looking for more scriptural support.

Specifically, where in the bible does it say "we go to heaven when we die"?

It doesn't!

Firstly, for the record, the term 'soul sleep' is a biblical absurdity as 'soul' in the bible does not mean the immaterial part of a person that survives death, so the idea that either our souls are with the body in the grave 'asleep' or have gone to Heaven will not be found in the bible.

Rather, the 'soul' in the bible is the life (life force if you like) that is bound up in the body transported by the blood in your circularity system.

DT 12:23
Lev 17:11

Both state the 'nephesh' of the flesh is in the blood.

At death, 'it' dies:

Numbers 23:10..Le me (nephesh, soul) die the death of the righteous.
Judges 16:30..Let me (Nephesh, soul) die with..

At resuscititation, the nephesh 'returns', not that its gone somewhere else.

The Hebrews believed at death, the were no longer 'nephesh' (souls as described in Genesis 2:7), but they were 'Rephaim' in sheol (the grave) where in death, they did not cease to exist, but were 'waiting' for resurrection as described in Psalm 88:10-12

10 Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do those who are dead rise up and praise you?
Selah

11 Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2088;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15320d)] ? 12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,
or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

They are in the grave waiting for resurrection!

Daniel 12:2

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So what about new testament times, did people go to heaven?

John 3:13
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

This was written around 100 to 120 AD!

Also in Acts, we read that David did not ascend either:

Acts 2:34 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

So what happens to us?

Read the whole of 1 corinthians 15.

John 6:54

54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

That tells us 'when'!

Why all the confusion about what happens to us between physical death and resurrection? Pagan Greek philisophical influences that has totally distorted the true Hebrew and biblical teachings and meanings of Hebrew ideas.

Here is a link for the history of it all.
http://www.jesushistory.info/cultural_background_of_christianity.htm

Here is something that Justin Martyr spoke about when attacking the myth of the immortality of the soul and that peoples' souls ended up in Heaven or Hell and a brief outline of how this debate is continuing to this day, even amongst my fellow evangelicals!


The Old Testament closed with the book of Malachi about 425 B.C. Between the writing of the Old and New Testaments, Judaism became penetrated by the pagan teaching of the immortality of the soul. Two schools of thought developed in Judaism:
A group that continued to hold to the Old Testament picture of man as a candidate for immortality who rested in the grave until the resurrection; and
A new group arising around 150 B.C. who introduced the Platonic philosophy of the immortality of the soul into the Jewish community.
Therefore, Judaism stood divided on this issue when Jesus came. He reaffirmed the Old Testament teaching that death is a sleep and man will receive immortality at the second coming. This was amplified and expanded by most of the New Testament writers. Thus the early Christian Church was brought back to the original teaching of the Old Testament. For over 150 years the early Christian Church held to the true Biblical picture of death as a sleep and the annihilation of the wicked. Notice the testimony of Justin Martyr (died, A.D. 165), one of the leaders of the Christian Church in the early centuries:
"If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this (truth) (of the resurrection), and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 80, in "Ante Nicene Fathers," Vol. 1. p. 294.

Bryan43
Aug 28th 2008, 06:29 PM
Good answers so far, but I'm looking for more scriptural support.

Specifically, where in the bible does it say "we go to heaven when we die"?

it does not. However, we see from Jesus words to the thief on the cross. and his parable about the rich man poor man, that there is a paradise. a place where the souls of Gods children await their final ressurection. in which then we will actually enter eternity in heaven..

remember a person who is 'asleep" as some put it, has no body. just a soul. it remains in paradise until god gives them their new body.

an unsaved person resides in hades awaiting their final judgment,

Mike CP King
Aug 28th 2008, 06:43 PM
it does not. However, we see from Jesus words to the thief on the cross. and his parable about the rich man poor man, that there is a paradise. a place where the souls of Gods children await their final ressurection. in which then we will actually enter eternity in heaven..

remember a person who is 'asleep" as some put it, has no body. just a soul. it remains in paradise until god gives them their new body.

an unsaved person resides in hades awaiting their final judgment,

Hi,
There is no such teaching found the bible. There is nothing in the bible to support the view that people have disembodoed souls in paradise. The word 'soul' is simply not there!

Here is a link to the correct understanding of the word 'soul' as used in the bible!

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings17.htm

legoman
Aug 28th 2008, 07:50 PM
It doesn't!


Wow. Thanks for the in-depth posts Mike. I sort of had a feeling that this might be the case - it will take me a while to research what you have said, but I have seen some other writings (websites) describe how a lot of pagan teachings have infiltrated the early church. This is why alot of the teachings of the church aren't always consistent with what the bible teaches. People just take them for granted, but they are really trusting the traditions of man over God's word. It is definitely a big area for further study.

Roger, regarding the verses you posted: to me they aren't necessarily indicating what happens directly (immediately) after we die. Its more like Paul is debating whether it would be better to stay in this life, or go and be with the lord. Obviously he wants to be with the Lord, but he realizes the Lord has better plans for him to stay here. I think Paul is just speaking in general terms, not specifically meaning that when he dies he will be immediately with him heaven, because it doesn't appear to clearly say that. Or perhaps when Paul dies, from his perspective, his next waking moment would be with the lord.

Just found this again. There are some other verses that seem more clear on the matter in Ecclesiastes 9. Verses 1-12 are talking about a common destiny for all, namely death. It starts off saying all, righteous and wicked, good and bad, have a common destiny. Verse 5 is really telling I think:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

The dead don't know anything, because they are dead. Until the resurrection that is.

I think Ecclesiastes 9 is clear enough that it should be our key for what happens at death. And as Mike posted, John 3:13 clinches it for me:

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

No one has ever gone to heaven except Jesus! Wow, that is profound! Given this verse, how can we claim that people go to heaven when they die?

Ok I just now reread 1 Corinthians 15 - very powerful stuff. Thanks for posting those verses Mike.

legoman
Aug 29th 2008, 04:43 PM
Just wondering if anyone has any further comment on this? Especially John 3:13?

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

Any further ways to interpret this? Or shall I just say case CASE CLOSED :) and I can assume we all agree that no one is in heaven right now (except for God & Jesus of course).

RogerW
Aug 29th 2008, 06:19 PM
Roger, regarding the verses you posted: to me they aren't necessarily indicating what happens directly (immediately) after we die. Its more like Paul is debating whether it would be better to stay in this life, or go and be with the lord. Obviously he wants to be with the Lord, but he realizes the Lord has better plans for him to stay here. I think Paul is just speaking in general terms, not specifically meaning that when he dies he will be immediately with him heaven, because it doesn't appear to clearly say that. Or perhaps when Paul dies, from his perspective, his next waking moment would be with the lord.

Just found this again. There are some other verses that seem more clear on the matter in Ecclesiastes 9. Verses 1-12 are talking about a common destiny for all, namely death. It starts off saying all, righteous and wicked, good and bad, have a common destiny. Verse 5 is really telling I think:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

The dead don't know anything, because they are dead. Until the resurrection that is.

I think Ecclesiastes 9 is clear enough that it should be our key for what happens at death. And as Mike posted, John 3:13 clinches it for me:

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

No one has ever gone to heaven except Jesus! Wow, that is profound! Given this verse, how can we claim that people go to heaven when they die?

Ok I just now reread 1 Corinthians 15 - very powerful stuff. Thanks for posting those verses Mike.

Greetings Legoman,

Do we ever read of the dead in Christ being referenced as "the dead"? Ecc 12 also has something to say on this regard.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It's true there are many passages of Scripture that speak of those dying in unbelief. These die and are remembered no more, but what of the one dying in Christ, in faith? The same fate awaits them physically, after all our bodies are made of the dust of the earth, so our bodies (all of us) go into the grave to await the bodily resurrection in the fullness of time, to receive Judgment and condemnation or a glorified body and everlasting life.

What about the spirit of the one who dies in faith? According to Jo 3:13 only the Son of man has ascended into heaven. But Christ here is speaking before the cross. When OT saints died, they went into Abraham's bosom or under the altar (Rev 6), having been marked for eternal life (Eze 9). Abraham's bosom, or under the altar is that part of the grave, prior to the cross that separated believers from those who died in unbelief, who went into the deepest abyss of hell or the grave (2Pe 2:4; Jude 1:6).

What happened when Christ died on the cross? When Christ ascended into heaven He didn't go alone. He first descended into hell; i.e. the grave, Abraham's bosom to set the captives free. This is what it means that He led captivity captive. The OT saints were held in captivity to death and the grave until they became captives of Christ after He defeated sin, and death.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Prior to the cross no one could go to heaven upon death because Christ had not yet defeated death and the grave, nor had He yet gone to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2,3). So they waited in the grave until Christ led them in spirit (the rational life essence) to heaven. Now all who die in Christ since the cross go immediately to heaven and the presence of the Lord.

John shows us these OT saints in the Revelation when he says, "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev 6:9-11

Souls or the spirit of the person; i.e. mind, rational etc. are under the altar, not the whole person. These faithful died for the Word of God, and being under the altar is to be under the sacrificial blood of the Lamb. I believe this is akin to being in Abraham's bosom.

The souls under the altar had been killed for the Word of God and the testimony they held, but there is no mention of Christ. Why? Because these are OT saints who prophesy of His coming, but died in faith without having received the promise. Others must also die, but those testifying after the cross die for not only the Word of God, but also for the witness of Jesus.

..."the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" (Rev 20:4)

At the end of the thousand years (I am amil and believe the thousand years symbolizes the fullness of time) the souls who died in faith prior to the cross, and the souls who die after the cross will be bodily resurrected together to receive their immortal, uncorruptible bodies to reign with Christ forever as a whole person, made perfect and complete.

Many Blessings,
RW

legoman
Aug 30th 2008, 12:48 PM
Thanks for continuing the debate Roger. This stuff is complicated.

I'm not sure I'm convinced on the idea that people stayed in their grave before the cross, but people who died after the cross, go to heaven. Where does it say this exactly?

I don't see how the scriptures you referenced (Eze 9 & Rev 6) show OT saints went into "Abraham's bosom". Rev 6 doesn't make mention of Old Testament only does it? The saints in Rev 6 are all saints (called/chosen) throughout all time. I thought Abraham's bosom was not a real place, but only described in the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus. I believe that the Rich Man & Lazarus is a parable, and not a literal description of the afterlife. There are a few different studies of this on the web if you do a google search.

Regarding Ecl 12:7. When we die the spirit returns to God. We have a body, and we have a spirit. Only when they are together does that make the soul. So on death, the body returns to where it came from (dust), and the spirit returns to where it came from (God). And the soul is no more. Without both body and spirit, there is no soul. Without a soul we don't know anything (the dead know nothing... Eccl 9:5) ie. we are not conscious when we are in death (hades). Note: the soul is not a synonym for "spirit". The soul only exists with both body and spirit. I believe this is what Mike CP's study was showing.

Regarding 2 peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, this is talking about tartarus which is different than hades I believe.

Peace,
Legoman

calidog
Aug 30th 2008, 02:08 PM
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Believest thou this?

Pleroo
Aug 30th 2008, 02:46 PM
I am torn on this subject, so playing advocate for both sides...


What happened when Christ died on the cross? When Christ ascended into heaven He didn't go alone. He first descended into hell; i.e. the grave, Abraham's bosom to set the captives free. This is what it means that He led captivity captive. The OT saints were held in captivity to death and the grave until they became captives of Christ after He defeated sin, and death.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


I have tended to believe that this referred to the OT saints, as well. However, it could mean something completely different. It could simply be speaking of the freedom He has made possible for all men ... freedom from slavery to sin as Paul speaks of in Romans 6.

*On top of that, if He did lead the OT saints to heaven at that time, why does Peter say in Acts 2, after Jesus' resurrection, "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day... For David did not ascend into the heavens..." ?



*On the flip side of that however, in speaking to the Sadducees, Jesus said that in Luke 20:37-38 "That the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead but of the living, for all live to him."

He is the God of the living.

*But back to being advocate for the other side, putting what Jesus said in context, in verses 34-36:

"The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the reurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed...

While Jesus uses a present tense ("for they cannot die anymore", "the dead are raised") He links that usage to a group of people who have attained to the age of the resurrection, a future age. His present tense seems to be a case of saying something "is" that is yet to come, a device used in Scripture elsewhere.

Also, Jesus is referring to something that God said to Moses long before Jesus' death and resurrection, before "captivity was taken captive". Even then God was calling the patriarchs living and not dead. So, either they had already been raised at that time, or again, He is simply saying that they WILL be raised, no question about it.

*Back to advocate for the other side of the coin, John in his gospel refers to the life we have in Christ, and that those who believe in Him can never die. Obviously this is not speaking of physical death. This is probably my biggest sticking point for the idea that Christians, at least, are immediately consciously present with God at physical death. In what other sense would John claim that we never die? It doesn't make sense to me that he is referencing a future resurrection when he says "never die".

RogerW
Aug 30th 2008, 02:56 PM
Thanks for continuing the debate Roger. This stuff is complicated.

I'm not sure I'm convinced on the idea that people stayed in their grave before the cross, but people who died after the cross, go to heaven. Where does it say this exactly?

I don't see how the scriptures you referenced (Eze 9 & Rev 6) show OT saints went into "Abraham's bosom". Rev 6 doesn't make mention of Old Testament only does it? The saints in Rev 6 are all saints (called/chosen) throughout all time. I thought Abraham's bosom was not a real place, but only described in the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus. I believe that the Rich Man & Lazarus is a parable, and not a literal description of the afterlife. There are a few different studies of this on the web if you do a google search.

Regarding Ecl 12:7. When we die the spirit returns to God. We have a body, and we have a spirit. Only when they are together does that make the soul. So on death, the body returns to where it came from (dust), and the spirit returns to where it came from (God). And the soul is no more. Without both body and spirit, there is no soul. Without a soul we don't know anything (the dead know nothing... Eccl 9:5) ie. we are not conscious when we are in death (hades). Note: the soul is not a synonym for "spirit". The soul only exists with both body and spirit. I believe this is what Mike CP's study was showing.

Regarding 2 peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, this is talking about tartarus which is different than hades I believe.

Peace,
Legoman

Greetings Legoman,

John 3:13 says no one has gone into heaven except the Lord. But the Ephesian passage I quoted (4:8-10) says that when Christ ascended He "led captivity captive". You may believe that simply means that Christ set us free from death and the grave, and I once looked at this passage in the same way. If that is the case why mention that before He ascended He descended into the lower parts of the earth? Not simply that He descended or first came to earth, but "the lower parts of the earth"?

Hell is defined as (1) hades; the place of departed souls, the grave (2) geenna; the place of everlasting torment, the lake of fire (3) tartaroo; the deepest abyss of hades, to incarcerate in eternal torment. In the Old Testament hell is defined as (4) sheol; hades or the world of the dead.

Every man goes to the grave upon physical death. The question is what part of the grave did they go to?

A parable is the manner in which Christ spoke to show a comparison, figure or similtude of whatever He is expressing. In the case of the parable of Lazaruz and the rich man, Christ was not only expressing the reality of after life and the grave, but showing there 'were' differing parts of the grave. I say "were" because that part of the grave where OT saints went, which Christ likened to Abraham's bosom, I believe is the "lower parts of the earth" where Christ descended to set the captives free before He ascended to heaven.

When Christ led captivity captive, He is showing us that those who had been held in that part of the grave called Abraham's bosom, were prisoners of death, but He took them for Himself, setting them free from death and the grave. These had been marked for salvation. We see this marking or sealing in Eze 9 and again with the 144,000 of Rev 7.

Christ did not take them with Him to heaven bodily, because Hebrews tells us those OT saints who died in faith, would not be made perfect without us (Heb 11:40). But He did set the captives free from the grave or Abraham's bosom spiritually. We see these OT saints depicted in Rev 6 as souls who had died for the Word of God and the testimony they held. I beleive these martyred saints in Rev 6 symbolizes OT saints waiting in Abraham's bosom for their delivery from death and the grave. If this were a picture of the saints throughout time, why is there no mention of their testimony of Christ, the Messiah as we find in Rev 20?

The reason I say that Rev 6 is a picture of OT saints in that part of the grave called Abraham's bosom is because they are "under" the altar. Where in Rev 20 we see those who die for the witness of Jesus and the Word of God are in heaven. Being under the altar is being under the blood of Christ. Marked to be saved, yet not being made free until after Christ comes in victory over sin and death.

Since Christ's victory at the cross, and resurrection, that part of the grave likened to Abraham's bosom has been done away with. Now every believer is given eternal life. Christ could not define our life in Him as eternal if when we phsically die our lives cease in the grave. Christ has promised life eternal, everlasting, never ending, therefore the only way we can have this never ending life as Christ has promised is by going into heaven spiritually after phyiscal death. Christ said as much when He said to Martha (Jo 11:25,26)

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

This promise could not be made to believers dying before the cross, or before Christ's victory over death and the grave. They had to wait until Christ went literally to the cross. They looked forward to the fulfillment of the promise of the Messiah, and now we look back at all He has fulfilled.

Solomon in Ecc 12 is speaking to those who fear God.

Ec 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

Ec 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Ec 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ec 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Spirit - ruwach wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

Holy Spirit - pneuma from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

Soul - nephesh properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The spirit of the person is the ruwach wind given by God, and man became a living soul. God told Adam and Eve that in the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die. But they lived on for many more years. God meant what He said, so a part of them did indeed die that day. It was the ruwach wind or the pneuma that died. This is why throughout the OT we find that the Spirit of God came and went, and sometimes He came upon individuals to carry out God's purpose, and other times He left individuals.

But in the NT Christ promised to send His Spirit to indwell His people. Before the cross the Spirit was among them, but after the cross the Spirit is in them. This is receiving back the ruwach wind, the pneuma man lost when he disobeyed God. It was Christ coming and sending the Spirit that enables us to receive back this Spiritual life upon re-birth. This is why Jo 3 tells us we must be born again.

This is why Ecc 12:7 says the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. God does not give His pneuma to every man, but only to His chosen elect.

2Pe 2:4 and Jude 1:6 depict unbelievers who died and went to the grave, and are held there until the Day of Judgment.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Aug 30th 2008, 03:33 PM
I am torn on this subject, so playing advocate for both sides...

I have tended to believe that this referred to the OT saints, as well. However, it could mean something completely different. It could simply be speaking of the freedom He has made possible for all men ... freedom from slavery to sin as Paul speaks of in Romans 6.

Greetings Pleroo,

Why the reference to the lower parts of the earth? It would simply say that Christ came to earth to set the captives free. But the lower parts of the earth IMO is speaking of the underworld, or the world of the dead.



*On top of that, if He did lead the OT saints to heaven at that time, why does Peter say in Acts 2, after Jesus' resurrection, "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day... For David did not ascend into the heavens..." ?

I believe this should be read as David has not yet ascended into the heavens physically. The evidence for this is that his grave was still with them. Were His foes; Satan, sin, and death made His footstool (defeated) with His victory at the cross and resurrection from the dead? I would argue YES they were! So even though David's grave (as evidence he had not yet ascended to heaven physically) was still with them, this does not mean he was not raised spiritually after the victory of Christ.

Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.



*On the flip side of that however, in speaking to the Sadducees, Jesus said that in Luke 20:37-38 "That the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead but of the living, for all live to him."

He is the God of the living.

Exactly! How can God be the God of the living; i.e. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if these dead men are not spiritually alive?




*But back to being advocate for the other side, putting what Jesus said in context, in verses 34-36:

"The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the reurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed...

While Jesus uses a present tense ("for they cannot die anymore", "the dead are raised") He links that usage to a group of people who have attained to the age of the resurrection, a future age. His present tense seems to be a case of saying something "is" that is yet to come, a device used in Scripture elsewhere.

That age referenced here is the spiritual resurrection from the dead. Angels are spirit beings, and the sons of God are equal to them. The resurrection to come is bodily in the fullness of time. Being in spirit essence we do not marry in heaven, and we cannot die anymore, but what about in the age to come in the fullness of time? The eternal age when we have been given new glorified bodies, and heaven comes down to earth?



Back to advocate for the other side of the coin, John in his gospel refers to the life we have in Christ, and that those who believe in Him can never die. Obviously this is not speaking of physical death. This is probably my biggest sticking point for the idea that Christians, at least, are immediately consciously present with God at physical death. In what other sense would John claim that we never die? It doesn't make sense to me that he is referencing a future resurrection when he says "never die".

How could our life in Christ be called eternal, everlasting, and never ending unless something of our lives continue to exist after physical death?

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Aug 31st 2008, 01:40 AM
Just wondering if anyone has any further comment on this? Especially John 3:13?

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man

Any further ways to interpret this? Or shall I just say case CASE CLOSED :) and I can assume we all agree that no one is in heaven right now (except for God & Jesus of course).

Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, nobody was in heaven. That is why He descended to bring the gospel to those who had never heard it and ascend with Him to heaven. That is why Christ told the thief next to Him on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise. Christ opened the gates of heaven for all those who die to self and accept Him being their Lord and SAvior. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.




Regarding Ecl 12:7. When we die the spirit returns to God. We have a body, and we have a spirit. Only when they are together does that make the soul. So on death, the body returns to where it came from (dust), and the spirit returns to where it came from (God). And the soul is no more. Without both body and spirit, there is no soul. Without a soul we don't know anything (the dead know nothing... Eccl 9:5) ie. we are not conscious when we are in death (hades). Note: the soul is not a synonym for "spirit". The soul only exists with both body and spirit. I believe this is what Mike CP's study was showing.



That is exactly it! When we have our bodies resurrected as incorruptable they are reunited with our spirit and it is then that we are judged as to our eternal home.

I think where Mike was off was in that if our bodies are dead - our spirit is too. Not so. ;)

legoman
Aug 31st 2008, 04:20 AM
Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, nobody was in heaven. That is why He descended to bring the gospel to those who had never heard it and ascend with Him to heaven. That is why Christ told the thief next to Him on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise. Christ opened the gates of heaven for all those who die to self and accept Him being their Lord and SAvior. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.



That is exactly it! When we have our bodies resurrected as incorruptable they are reunited with our spirit and it is then that we are judged as to our eternal home.

I think where Mike was off was in that if our bodies are dead - our spirit is too. Not so. ;)

Yes, but the spirit is nothing without the body. It is the combination of the two that gives us our soul. The spirit is God's breath ie. when he breathed life into Adam.

In any case I can see I will have to do more study in this area - I'm just trying to go through Roger's other posts and figure this out... its much too late now so I will hopefully get to it later this weekend.

One thing I will say though is I don't agree with this concept of Abraham's bosom, and seperate places of hell and what not.

Isn't hades and sheol just the grave? - ie the place of the dead, and you don't know nothing when you are there.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 31st 2008, 01:22 PM
Yes, but the spirit is nothing without the body. It is the combination of the two that gives us our soul. Where does it say that? :hmm:

Mike CP King
Aug 31st 2008, 07:03 PM
Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, nobody was in heaven. That is why He descended to bring the gospel to those who had never heard it and ascend with Him to heaven. That is why Christ told the thief next to Him on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise. Christ opened the gates of heaven for all those who die to self and accept Him being their Lord and SAvior. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


Hi,
The 'spirit of us' is not 'us'! The 'Ruah' is simply God's breath of life (Genesis 2:7) into the the mouded dust so that someone becomes a soul. Please look carefully at ecclesiates 12:7 and the spirit of God who gave it

As John 3:13 was written around 70 to 100 years after Jesus resurrection, we can be sure when we get resurrected as Jesus' own word express in John 6:54.

This is not 'soul' sleep as to the Hebrew, soul was the total living being at not the part of you that survives death as Plato stated.






That is exactly it! When we have our bodies resurrected as incorruptable they are reunited with our spirit and it is then that we are judged as to our eternal home.

I think where Mike was off was in that if our bodies are dead - our spirit is too. Not so. ;)

As mentioned above, 'spirit' is not another word that describes the quintessence of a being, the hebrews had no notion of that!

What the Hebrews believed is when someone dies, they were no longer 'Nephesh',, they were 'rephaim' is Sheol (shades) were death was not extinction, but death being the weakest form of life. Scripture does not support the idea of 'immortality of the soul' (try googling it with the word 'nephesh added) as in numerous places, the 'nephesh' died with the body at physical death. As one reads in Daniel 12;2 and in 1 Corinthiams, we get resurrected. What is always debateable is if there is some conscious activity during the interim. Some verses suggest it, but if you have the time to look at the rather long, but absolutely spot on view of Biblical anthropology from a Hewbrew perspective, you will notice that given the true meaning of 'nephesh', all scripture using the Hebrew definition on which the New Testament is built upon no longer contradicts itself.

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

Here is the short version from another site:

http://catalystresources.org/issues/232murphy.html

threebigrocks
Aug 31st 2008, 07:45 PM
Hi,
The 'spirit of us' is not 'us'! The 'Ruah' is simply God's breath of life (Genesis 2:7) into the the mouded dust so that someone becomes a soul. Please look carefully at ecclesiates 12:7 and the spirit of God who gave it



Look back at the creation of man. First the physical made complete from dirt, then the breathe of God. That is the spirit of a man. So we have physical and spiritual aspects there. The two together are what is the soul.

God gave us that spirit, you are correct. For those who are saved, the whole thing is played out in reverse. First the spiritual (our spirit is already redeemed if we are of the faith, never is it not eternal) then the physical (our bodies must die, but will be raised up incorruptible) because it is still corruptible until death. That dust it was created out of must return to the dust in order for it to be raised up again.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We will be incorruptable beings which go on eternally.

RogerW
Aug 31st 2008, 07:51 PM
As John 3:13 was written around 70 to 100 years after Jesus resurrection, we can be sure when we get resurrected as Jesus' own word express in John 6:54.



Greetings Mike,

It doesn't really matter when it was written because John is quoting the words Christ spoke to Nicodemus. John 6:54 tells us the life we receive through Christ is eternal, how can it be eternal if when we physically die our life is cut off? Do you believe the first resurrection is Spiritual life?

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Blessings,
RW

Mike CP King
Aug 31st 2008, 08:01 PM
Look back at the creation of man. First the physical made complete from dirt, then the breathe of God. That is the spirit of a man. So we have physical and spiritual aspects there. The two together are what is the soul.

God gave us that spirit, you are correct. For those who are saved, the whole thing is played out in reverse. First the spiritual (our spirit is already redeemed if we are of the faith, never is it not eternal) then the physical (our bodies must die, but will be raised up incorruptible) because it is still corruptible until death. That dust it was created out of must return to the dust in order for it to be raised up again.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We will be incorruptable beings which go on eternally.

Hi,
I am absolutely in agreement, but for 1 point! The defintion of 'Ruah' (spirit). Every person has God' s Ruah whether they are believers or not. Ruah never dies, but below is a key passage that God influences via a person's ruah.

Jeremiah 51:11

11 "Sharpen the arrows,
take up the shields!
The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes,
because his purpose is to destroy Babylon.
The LORD will take vengeance,
vengeance for his temple.

My reason for posting is that 'soul' in the popular understanding of the word is not the same as the biblical term 'nephesh' and 'psuche' and how the Greek notion of 'soul' that is read into the biblical text, so its real meaning gets distorted.

Mike CP King
Aug 31st 2008, 09:43 PM
Greetings Mike,

It doesn't really matter when it was written because John is quoting the words Christ spoke to Nicodemus. John 6:54 tells us the life we receive through Christ is eternal, how can it be eternal if when we physically die our life is cut off? Do you believe the first resurrection is Spiritual life?

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,
Good point. The same thing is implied in Acts 2:34 when we read that David has not ascended into Heaven. I believe that at resurrection, we will get our incorruptable spiritual bodies as described in 1 Corinthians 15, and the Holy Spirit we receive as our 'guarantee' of eternal life at conversion and sealed at baptism. Even though we all will die (physically), yet shall we live again once we are resurrected (at the last day) and it shall be for us like in Rev 21 with our inheritance coming to us on the new earth! What it will be like for us in the interim will always be debateable.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 01:53 AM
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Believest thou this?


No. I believe this verse is mistranslated.

Here is Young's literal translation:

John 11:26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

The verse shouldn't say "never". Everyone dies - the wages of sin is death. John 11:26 is speaking about life after the resurrection. If it were not so, it would be a contradiction with the following verses that imply we die, but then are raised from the dead.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Further proof:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse is very important. Note what it is saying. Everyone will die. But through Christ all will be made alive. When are we made alive? Immediately? Nope. At death? Nope. When Christ comes? YES.

Remember what Satan said to Eve? "You shall surely not die." Do we still believe Satan?

calidog
Sep 1st 2008, 02:02 AM
No. I believe this verse is mistranslated.

believe what you will.

Joh 11:26 And whoever continues to live and believes in (has faith in, cleaves to, and relies on) Me shall never [actually] die at all. Do you believe this?
Joh 11:26 And everyone living and believing into Me shall not die to the age, never! Do you believe this?
Joh 11:26 AndG2532 whosoeverG3956 livethG2198 andG2532 believethG4100 inG1519 meG1691 shall neverG3364 G1519 G165 die.G599 BelievestG4100 thou this?G5124

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 02:30 AM
Yes, but the spirit is nothing without the body. It is the combination of the two that gives us our soul.Where does it say that? :hmm:

I think I made a mistake there.

What I was meant to say was the soul is nothing without the body and spirit. What is the soul? It is 'us', our consciousness. It doesn't exist unless we have a body and spirit. Mike's posts probably cover this better than I can.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God formed man from dust (physical body), breathed life into him (spirit). This combined to make the soul. Without either there can be no soul.

Right now we have physical bodies. When we die we will sleep the sleep of death.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

When we are resurrected, we will be raised with spiritual bodies (1 corinthians 15:44).

This all shows (to me at least) that when we die, we are "asleep" ie. not conscious. Otherwise why would we need a resurrection, if we are still "alive" somewhere else (hades, heaven, abraham's bosom etc)? The reason we need the resurrection is because when we die, we are dead.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 02:48 AM
believe what you will.


Likewise.



Joh 11:26 And whoever continues to live and believes in (has faith in, cleaves to, and relies on) Me shall never [actually] die at all. Do you believe this?
Joh 11:26 And everyone living and believing into Me shall not die to the age, never! Do you believe this?
Joh 11:26AndG2532whosoeverG3956livethG2198andG2532beli evethG4100inG1519meG1691shall neverG3364 G1519 G165die.G599BelievestG4100thou this?G5124
This is what "never" was translated from:
G3364: ou "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever..."
G1519: eis "to, or into, of time, of place ..."
G165: aion "age"

So if this means "never", why include G1519 & G165, which would add "to the age". This is where Young's literal gets "shall not die -- to the age".

Just because alot of other translations chose to leave out "to the age", doesn't mean they are correct. We should not be taking words away from the original manuscripts. I believe the original manuscripts.

Peace.
Legoman

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 03:11 AM
There are two resurrections. The first resurrection is Spiritual and the second resurrection is bodily. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life. If we possess Spiritual life our mortal bodies will also be made alive. How can His Spirit that dwells in me quicken my mortal body if I have no Spiritual life?

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The only ones who die are those who live after the flesh, but those who mortify the deeds of the body live spiritually, even though their bodies die.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We already have the firstfruits of the Spirit, and are Spiritually alive, but we must wait for the redemption of our body until the fulness of time.

Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Not even death can separate us from the love of God. How can this statement be true if we are separated by His love in death?

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 03:27 AM
Hi Roger,
Good point. The same thing is implied in Acts 2:34 when we read that David has not ascended into Heaven. I believe that at resurrection, we will get our incorruptable spiritual bodies as described in 1 Corinthians 15, and the Holy Spirit we receive as our 'guarantee' of eternal life at conversion and sealed at baptism. Even though we all will die (physically), yet shall we live again once we are resurrected (at the last day) and it shall be for us like in Rev 21 with our inheritance coming to us on the new earth! What it will be like for us in the interim will always be debateable.

Hi Mike,

But the Spirit we receive as our guarantee of eternal life at re-birth never dies. This is the first resurrection, which is spiritual life, and this life is eternal. Our bodies die, and they too will be resurrected to life in the fullness of time.

Those who live and reign with Christ for the fullness of time (one thousand years) are the ones who have received Spiritual life. This is the first resurrection. They already have Spiritual life, so the second death (lake of fire) has no power over them. They may die physically, but Spiritually they never die.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Many Blessings,
RW

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 03:32 AM
That is why Christ told the thief next to Him on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise.

Just another comment on this verse that people may not have heard before. I was so amazed when I was shown this.

Here is the verse in the NIV:

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Now what if the verse was meant to read:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

What changed? The comma! And the entire meaning of the verse! With the comma in this position, it is clear Jesus did not mean he would be in paradise today.

Now could this be the actual meaning of the verse? A couple of the more literal translations seem to think so:

"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

This would be more consistent with the other verses in John 6 and 1 corinthians 15 that say we are raised from the dead at Christ's return.

Just something to think about... all is maybe not what it first appears...

calidog
Sep 1st 2008, 03:39 AM
Why on earth would Jesus, hanging on a cross, breathing difficultly, need to emphasis that it is "today" He is speaking. Where else in scripture has this happened?

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 03:46 AM
Likewise.

This is what "never" was translated from:
G3364: ou "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever..."
G1519: eis "to, or into, of time, of place ..."
G165: aion "age"

So if this means "never", why include G1519 & G165, which would add "to the age". This is where Young's literal gets "shall not die -- to the age".

Just because alot of other translations chose to leave out "to the age", doesn't mean they are correct. We should not be taking words away from the original manuscripts. I believe the original manuscripts.

Peace.
Legoman

Greetings Legoman,

Christ makes a pretty compelling case for eternal spiritual life, meaning though we die physically, we will never die. Not only do we have eternal life when we are in Christ NOW, in addition we will be bodily raised at the last day. The most compelling part is comparing the physical death of those who ate the manna and are dead. But whoever eats the bread of Christ will never die as they did. We all die physically, so our life can only be eternal if Christ is speaking of Spiritual life.

Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 03:50 AM
Why on earth would Jesus, hanging on a cross, breathing difficultly, need to emphasis that it is "today" He is speaking. Where else in scripture has this happened?

Good point calidog. Not only does it not make sense, but we should also remember that punctuation was later added.

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Sep 1st 2008, 03:51 AM
Well, if the thief on the cross were told that to him either way - it didn't much matter. He was forgiven and saved and would be in heaven upon his death. Which, since he was hanging on a cross already was soon thereafter. We are told here:

John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.

Their death was expedited so that it wouldn't interfere with the Sabbath. That thief died the same day Christ did. ;)

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 03:55 AM
Greetings Legoman,

Christ makes a pretty compelling case for eternal spiritual life, meaning though we die physically, we will never die. Not only do we have eternal life when we are in Christ NOW, in addition we will be bodily raised at the last day. The most compelling part is comparing the physical death of those who ate the manna and are dead. But whoever eats the bread of Christ will never die as they did. We all die physically, so our life can only be eternal if Christ is speaking of Spiritual life.

Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

Ok, but there seems to be an inconsistency in your argument. You say for those in Christ, we die physically, but continue to live spiritually. Does that mean when an unbeliever dies, they don't continue to live spiritually? ie. they are unconscious, sleeping the sleep of death, etc.

If so how does that reconcile with your idea of souls going to hades upon death, with unbelievers in torment and believer's in Abraham's bosom.

Cheers,
Legoman

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 03:58 AM
Good point calidog. Not only does it not make sense, but we should also remember that punctuation was later added.

Many Blessings,
RW

If punctuation was added later, then we don't know what the true emphasis should be.

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 04:05 AM
Why on earth would Jesus, hanging on a cross, breathing difficultly, need to emphasis that it is "today" He is speaking. Where else in scripture has this happened?
I think legoman's point is sound, and we should not project our present style of speaking into a situation taking place 2000 years ago in another culture and another language.

If legoman's assertion is correct, it really does undermine the value of this utterance in respect to establishing that "we go straight to heaven when we die".

On balance, I think that the scriptures teach that when a redeemed person dies, they basically enter a state of unconscious rest. Their body goes into the ground, and their spirit returns to God. But, and this is key, the idea this spirit "carries or bears consciousness" is almost certainly a superimpostion of Platonic ideas about a dualism between the physical and the "spiritual" that was simply not part of Hebrew culture.

There are just too many references to a state of "sleep" for the saints. I therefore think that when we die, its "lights out" until we are resurrected. The New Testament is not terribly interested in what happens after we die - it is far more focused on what happens after the resurrection. Over the last 500 or so years, the church has, in my opinion replaced the Biblical model of a physical resurrection and eternal life in a remade earth with a model where we go directly to heaven at death and relegate the bodily resurrection to secondary importance.

Having said all this, I am not entirely sold on the "unconscious rest" idea. What I am more convinced of is that our ultimate destination is not heaven, but rather a remade and transformed earth.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 04:05 AM
Well, if the thief on the cross were told that to him either way - it didn't much matter. He was forgiven and saved and would be in heaven upon his death. Which, since he was hanging on a cross already was soon thereafter. We are told here:

John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.

Their death was expedited so that it wouldn't interfere with the Sabbath. That thief died the same day Christ did. ;)

I think you missed the point threebigrocks. If the verse was as follows:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise"

then the meaning changes entirely. All it would then say is that sometime in the future, the thief will be with Christ in paradise. It does not imply that the thief will be with Christ immediately today (after the thief dies), and allows for the possibility that we aren't actually with Christ until the resurrection of the body.

Cheers,
Legoman

threebigrocks
Sep 1st 2008, 04:14 AM
At risk of derailing, I'll just say this - Christ's death finished what was to be done. The gates of heaven were opened, the curtain torn, the ground shook. Even us today walking in faith as we do still await a bodily resurrection to come. As Paul said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 04:16 AM
I think legoman's point is sound, and we should not project our present style of speaking into a situation taking place 2000 years ago in another culture and another language.

If legoman's assertion is correct, it really does undermine the value of this utterance in respect to establishing that "we go straight to heaven when we die".

On balance, I think that the scriptures teach that when a redeemed person dies, they basically enter a state of unconscious rest. Their body goes into the ground, and their spirit returns to God. But, and this is key, the idea this spirit "carries or bears consciousness" is almost certainly a superimpostion of Platonic ideas about a dualism between the physical and the "spiritual" that was simply not part of Hebrew culture.


Platonic = Plato?

I have also seen articles about how paganism has had a big influence on our ideas about death.



There are just too many references to a state of "sleep" for the saints. I therefore think that when we die, its "lights out" until we are resurrected. The New Testament is not terribly interested in what happens after we die - it is far more focused on what happens after the resurrection. Over the last 500 or so years, the church has, in my opinion replaced the Biblical model of a physical resurrection and eternal life in a remade earth with a model where we go directly to heaven at death and relegate the bodily resurrection to secondary importance.

Having said all this, I am not entirely sold on the "unconscious rest" idea. What I am more convinced of is that our ultimate destination is not heaven, but rather a remade and transformed earth.Thankyou drew! I pretty much agree with everything you said. Even the part about being "not entirely sold".

That is the whole point of the thread for me: growing up we were all taught "you go to heaven (or hell) when you die." Upon closer inspection of the Word, it does not appear it is quite that simple.

It appears to me, when we die, we are asleep, until the resurrection when we will hopefully enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is what I am trying to determine, but so far this appears to be correct.

It is important that we not let preconceived ideas disuade us from the pursuit of the truth.

Cheers,
Legoman

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 04:18 AM
I think that the Luke 16 account of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

It uses standard imagery from ancient Judaism such as "Abraham's bosom". The purpose of the parable is not to teach about the nature of life after death, but rather to insist on mercy and justice in this life.

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 04:24 AM
Platonic = Plato?
Yes.


Thankyou drew! I pretty much agree with everything you said. Even the part about being "not entirely sold".

That is the whole point of the thread for me: growing up we were all taught "you go to heaven (or hell) when you die." Upon closer inspection of the Word, it does not appear it is quite that simple.

It appears to me, when we die, we are asleep, until the resurrection when we will hopefully enter the kingdom of heaven.
At the risk of picking on a single point of disagreement where we otherwise seem to have the same view, I would say that the "kingdom of heaven" is, in an important and real sense, already here. But I will agree that it will not arrive fully until the time of the resurrection of the saints. Perhaps that is off topic, though.

But I do agree with you about the closer inspection. We are so steeped in this idea that the goal is "going to heaven when you die", we have trouble stepping back and seeing what the scriptures really do teach. And whether or not we are "conscious" after death, while interesting and perhaps the topic of this thread, the really important truth, in my opinion is this: Whether we are "conscious" in heaven or not, heaven is a temporary place for the saints - our eternal home is right here on a transformed earth. So please do not get too comfortable in heaven - you won't be there forever......:D

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 04:26 AM
Hi Roger,

Ok, but there seems to be an inconsistency in your argument. You say for those in Christ, we die physically, but continue to live spiritually. Does that mean when an unbeliever dies, they don't continue to live spiritually? ie. they are unconscious, sleeping the sleep of death, etc.

If so how does that reconcile with your idea of souls going to hades upon death, with unbelievers in torment and believer's in Abraham's bosom.

Cheers,
Legoman

Hi Legoman,

Interesting discussion. An unbeliever is never made Spiritually alive. So when they die they go to the grave (hades) to await the bodily resurrection on the last day. Then they must appear before the Judgment Throne of God.

Abraham's bosom, or that part of the grave where Lazarus went, and where every OT saint went before the cross was emptied by Christ when He descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free. Now when people physically die their bodies go into the grave (hades) and return to the dust. Unbelievers lives simply cease upon death because they have never been given Spiritual life. But since believers have been made Spiritually alive in Christ and given eternal, everlasting, never ending life, while their bodies go into the grave (hades) to await the bodily resurrection at the last day, but their Spirits go into heaven, just as Christ's Spirit went to the Father when He died.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 04:36 AM
I think there is little doubt that, at death, the "spirits" of the saints go to heaven. This is certainly taught in Ecclesiastes.

What is more interesting is the question as to whether these spirits are the bearers of our "conscious awareness". I am inclined to say "no" for the following reasons:

1. It is the Greek way of thinking that has most significantly influenced the western way of thinking. And the Greeks had this idea of a consciousness bearing soul / spirit that "inhabits" a body and can, in principle, be extricated from that body. As my old friend from another forum (CP_Mike) has pointed out, this is not the Hebrew model. This should cause us to be suspicious of bringing a Greek model to material written under a different worldview.

2. The description of the glory of the undeniably future resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 really makes no sense if saints are already enjoying the full flower of conscious existence in heaven right now. For those saints, the resurrection would not be the glorious and climactic event as 1 Corinthians 15 describes it, but rather bascailly just "putting on a suit".

So I think there are real problems with the idea that we go to a full state of conscious existence in Heaven after we die. To be fair, though, people who hold the opposing view, could perhaps solve problem number 2 by suggesting that "life in heaven" is kind of a state of "rest" - conscious, but barely.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 04:36 AM
There are two resurrections. The first resurrection is Spiritual and the second resurrection is bodily. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life. If we possess Spiritual life our mortal bodies will also be made alive. How can His Spirit that dwells in me quicken my mortal body if I have no Spiritual life?

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The only ones who die are those who live after the flesh, but those who mortify the deeds of the body live spiritually, even though their bodies die.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We already have the firstfruits of the Spirit, and are Spiritually alive, but we must wait for the redemption of our body until the fulness of time.

Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Not even death can separate us from the love of God. How can this statement be true if we are separated by His love in death?

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

The verses you quote in Romans 8 don't seem to speaking about specific "resurrections", they just speaking generally that if you live in the flesh you are dead, but if you live in Christ, your are alive spiritually. This doesn't contradict with the fact that when we die our spirit returns to God, and the body returns to dust. As was discussed previously, I don't believe the spirit = soul (our consciousness). The soul needs both body & spirit.

How do you square the idea of 2 resurrections (physical & spiritual) with 1 corinthians 15? When would each resurrection occur exactly?

Romans 8:38-39 are just stating the concept that Christ shall overcome/defeat death.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Christ defeats death and the grave (hades) , therefore it shall not keep us separated from him.

Peace.

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 04:42 AM
Yes.


At the risk of picking on a single point of disagreement where we otherwise seem to have the same view, I would say that the "kingdom of heaven" is, in an important and real sense, already here. But I will agree that it will not arrive fully until the time of the resurrection of the saints. Perhaps that is off topic, though.


Actually on this point we probably agree too :) I was most likely typing too fast for my brain when I said we "enter the kingdom of heaven when we die". As I see it there are scriptures that say the kingdom of heaven is also now, but won't be fully realized until the resurrection.

Part of the problem for me is sorting through all the confusion. So much to learn and study about this. And this should be the one of the most important topics for all christians (and everybody). What the heck happens when we die?

Cheers,
Legoman

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 04:55 AM
Hi Legoman,

Interesting discussion. An unbeliever is never made Spiritually alive. So when they die they go to the grave (hades) to await the bodily resurrection on the last day. Then they must appear before the Judgment Throne of God.

Abraham's bosom, or that part of the grave where Lazarus went, and where every OT saint went before the cross was emptied by Christ when He descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free. Now when people physically die their bodies go into the grave (hades) and return to the dust. Unbelievers lives simply cease upon death because they have never been given Spiritual life. But since believers have been made Spiritually alive in Christ and given eternal, everlasting, never ending life, while their bodies go into the grave (hades) to await the bodily resurrection at the last day, but their Spirits go into heaven, just as Christ's Spirit went to the Father when He died.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes it is quite interesting. Thanks for your contributions, even if we don't agree, I still appreciate your viewpoint.

If unbelievers lives simply cease (ie they are dead, not knowing anything), doesn't this present a problem with the literal interpretation of Lazarus's parable? If that parable is interpreted literally, it shows as you say the different compartments of hades, and the unbelievers being tormented, while lazarus talks to the rich man (who is being tormented).

I would suggest this is not the correct interpretation of the parable.

Mark 4:13 Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

Mark 4:33
With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand.

Have you considered this before Roger: all the parables Jesus told were the same parable. They were about the kingdom of God, the many called, and the few chosen.

There are other alternate interpretations of the Lazarus/Rich man parable expounded upon if you do a google search. We could probably start another thread on it.

Cheers,
Legoman

Steps
Sep 1st 2008, 10:38 AM
Why do you refer to the Lazarus Account as a parable? I don't recall the bible saying so.

Mike CP King
Sep 1st 2008, 12:00 PM
Why do you refer to the Lazarus Account as a parable? I don't recall the bible saying so.

Hi Steps,
Some manuscripts of Luke actually state it as a parable. The main clue that it is a parable is that the story is using the popular Rabbinical language of the day which was coming from the Hellenisation of the Israel after the Babylonian exile and the invasion of the Greeks. As the terms like 'Abraham's bosom', the 'great chasm' and other terms appear only in the parable and nowhere else in scripture, Jesus was basically not giving the Pharisees who he was speaking to a lecture on the afterlife, but rather using the Pharisess own language against them (The Pharisees were dressed in purple!). It was never meant to be literal.

Steps
Sep 1st 2008, 12:12 PM
It was not a parable

Mike CP King
Sep 1st 2008, 12:44 PM
It was not a parable


What makes you say that? Its well documented it was.

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 02:02 PM
Another poster on another site I visit posted these arguments as to why we should see the Luke 16 account as a parable:

There are several reasons for judging it as such:
1. It is the last of five parables which Jesus had just given.
2. It ends with the lesson which the parable taught, as do the other four.
3. It contains features which do not seem to make sense, if the story is an actual description of the intermediate state.
(a) How could a drop of water from Lazarus' finger give him any relief at all?
(b) Why is the place of comfort called "Abraham's bosom"? That doesn't sound very literal.
(c) How can Lazarus and Abraham have bodies and body parts before the resurrection? How can the rich man have a tongue and eyes? How can Lazarus have a finger? If they already have bodies, what is the purpose of the resurrection to come?

I find 3c to be particularly convincing. I cannot possibly see how one can sustain the position that people have body parts prior to the resurrection.

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 02:10 PM
If punctuation was added later, then we don't know what the true emphasis should be.

Greetings Legoman,

If we allow Scripture to show us the truth, I believe we can know with certainty that when Christ told the thief he would be with the Lord in paradise today, He meant that very day.

Christ uses the phrase "verily I say unto you/thee" many times in Scripture. Not once does He add today, or this day without the context showing it is the present, or now.

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Consider where Christ tells Peter "this day, even in this night"...Christ leaves no doubt He is speaking of that very day, and not some future day. Of course history shows us clearly that this prophecy was fulfilled in the very same day.

Mr 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Lu 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Also consider Strong's Greek translation of "today" in Lu 23:43.

4594 semeron neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article 3588 (t changed to s) and 2250; on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):--this (to-)day.

Paul here is speaking of one who had an out of body experience, where he was caught up into paradise and heard unspeakable words.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Christ promises that those who overcome will be given to eat of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God. Overcome means to have prevailed in this life, so now they are translated into paradise of God...heavenly dwelling place.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

To be clear, please take note. As I have presented my arguments, I have not used Plato, or a Greek way of thinking. I have argued from the Scripture, presenting an abundance of proof text. I have tried to argue with reason, and Scripture knowledge without presuppositions, or others opinions. The information is here for you and others to consider. If you believe I have presented a convincing argument based upon biblical truths...fine. Now it is up to you to search the Scriptures for yourself as a Berean to see if what I have said aligns with the Word of God, not with anything else, but the Word of God Alone!

Many, Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 02:17 PM
I think there is little doubt that, at death, the "spirits" of the saints go to heaven. This is certainly taught in Ecclesiastes.

What is more interesting is the question as to whether these spirits are the bearers of our "conscious awareness". I am inclined to say "no" for the following reasons:

1. It is the Greek way of thinking that has most significantly influenced the western way of thinking. And the Greeks had this idea of a consciousness bearing soul / spirit that "inhabits" a body and can, in principle, be extricated from that body. As my old friend from another forum (CP_Mike) has pointed out, this is not the Hebrew model. This should cause us to be suspicious of bringing a Greek model to material written under a different worldview.

2. The description of the glory of the undeniably future resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 really makes no sense if saints are already enjoying the full flower of conscious existence in heaven right now. For those saints, the resurrection would not be the glorious and climactic event as 1 Corinthians 15 describes it, but rather bascailly just "putting on a suit".

So I think there are real problems with the idea that we go to a full state of conscious existence in Heaven after we die. To be fair, though, people who hold the opposing view, could perhaps solve problem number 2 by suggesting that "life in heaven" is kind of a state of "rest" - conscious, but barely.

It makes perfect sense Drew, when you consider that we are not a whole being. We long to be made whole again, and to reside on the newly recreated earth with our incorruptible, immortal bodies, when heaven comes down with the saints in the fullness of time.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 02:28 PM
The verses you quote in Romans 8 don't seem to speaking about specific "resurrections", they just speaking generally that if you live in the flesh you are dead, but if you live in Christ, your are alive spiritually. This doesn't contradict with the fact that when we die our spirit returns to God, and the body returns to dust. As was discussed previously, I don't believe the spirit = soul (our consciousness). The soul needs both body & spirit.

How do you square the idea of 2 resurrections (physical & spiritual) with 1 corinthians 15? When would each resurrection occur exactly?

Romans 8:38-39 are just stating the concept that Christ shall overcome/defeat death.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Christ defeats death and the grave (hades) , therefore it shall not keep us separated from him.

Peace.

Can the Holy Spirit, making us Spiritually alive ever die? Does He ever leave or forsake us? Does He depart from us at death? If He does would this not then be separation from God's love?

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 02:30 PM
Actually on this point we probably agree too :) I was most likely typing too fast for my brain when I said we "enter the kingdom of heaven when we die". As I see it there are scriptures that say the kingdom of heaven is also now, but won't be fully realized until the resurrection.

Part of the problem for me is sorting through all the confusion. So much to learn and study about this. And this should be the one of the most important topics for all christians (and everybody). What the heck happens when we die?

Cheers,
Legoman

If you understand that we enter the kingdom when we become saved, then you should also understand that we will be in the kingdom eternally, forever, without end, in this age and the age to come.

Blessings,
RW

Studyin'2Show
Sep 1st 2008, 02:31 PM
It was not a parableThere are two different Lazarus'. One was the brother of Martha and Mary. He died, was in the tomb for 4 days and was raised back to life by Yeshua. This was not a parable. The second was spoken of in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus was the beggar that laid at the gate of the rich man, and the dogs came and licked his sores. :eek: This is where the confusion is coming in. ;)

God Bless!

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 02:34 PM
Yes it is quite interesting. Thanks for your contributions, even if we don't agree, I still appreciate your viewpoint.

If unbelievers lives simply cease (ie they are dead, not knowing anything), doesn't this present a problem with the literal interpretation of Lazarus's parable? If that parable is interpreted literally, it shows as you say the different compartments of hades, and the unbelievers being tormented, while lazarus talks to the rich man (who is being tormented).

I would suggest this is not the correct interpretation of the parable.

Mark 4:13 Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

Mark 4:33
With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand.

Have you considered this before Roger: all the parables Jesus told were the same parable. They were about the kingdom of God, the many called, and the few chosen.

There are other alternate interpretations of the Lazarus/Rich man parable expounded upon if you do a google search. We could probably start another thread on it.

Cheers,
Legoman

The parable of Lazarus, like all the other kingdom parables is showing us we will either reign with the Lord forever in eternity, or we will be buried and forgotten until the Day of Judgment.

Blessings,
RW

legoman
Sep 1st 2008, 02:39 PM
Hi Roger,

All of the verses you posted are good and fine verses, but I don't see how they are stating that we are "alive" in death.

Ecclesiastes 9 seems to be very clear about what happens when we die, especially verse 5 and verse 10:

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-17486c)] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

This seems to make it crystal clear. Where we are going when we die there is no knowledge... therefore the dead don't know anything. Therefore we have no consciousness when we die. Therefore how could this be "heaven"?

Now just because we are in the death state (ie. sleep, no knowledge, whatever you want to call it), does that mean we are separated from God? Not really. We are just in a restful state is the way I see it. When we are revived at the resurrection, we will still be with God.

That's how I see it - Ecclesiastes 9 is just too clear to suggest otherwise. 1 Corinith 15 agrees with it as well.

Cheers,
Legoman

MyGod
Sep 1st 2008, 02:50 PM
It doesn't!



It does. Ephesians 2:6 states "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

I believe that members of the Body of Christ (everyone who has accepted Jesus' death as payment for sins) will be raptured, "caught up" and go to Heaven. Those who "endure to the end, the same shall be saved" will reign on Earth after the Great Tribulation.

That's why you have verses like Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" and Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

There's a difference. Some are in Heaven and some are on Earth.

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 04:23 PM
Hi Roger,

All of the verses you posted are good and fine verses, but I don't see how they are stating that we are "alive" in death.

Ecclesiastes 9 seems to be very clear about what happens when we die, especially verse 5 and verse 10:

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-17486c)] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

This seems to make it crystal clear. Where we are going when we die there is no knowledge... therefore the dead don't know anything. Therefore we have no consciousness when we die. Therefore how could this be "heaven"?

Now just because we are in the death state (ie. sleep, no knowledge, whatever you want to call it), does that mean we are separated from God? Not really. We are just in a restful state is the way I see it. When we are revived at the resurrection, we will still be with God.

That's how I see it - Ecclesiastes 9 is just too clear to suggest otherwise. 1 Corinith 15 agrees with it as well.

Cheers,
Legoman

Hi Legoman,

Boy, you take some convincing ;)

Can Solomon be referring to the dead in Christ? How could he be, when he says "neither have they any more a reward"? They have no portion FOREVER in anything that is done under the sun? Is this a reference to the dead in Christ?

Ec 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ec 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Solomon is still speaking to "the dead", telling them basically to enjoy all that living has to offer, for tomorrow they die. Their life (the dead) is vanity. Is the life of the one in Christ vanity? There is no rememberance in the grave for "the dead" but this does not describe those who have been given eternal life.

Ec 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
Ec 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
Ec 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

How can this Psalm tell us the dead praise not the LORD, but then give us assurance that we (believers) will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore? If we who die in Christ go down into silence as "the dead", how will we praise the LORD for evermore? Evermore is the Hebrew word owlam andmeans time out of mind, perpetual, without end.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ps 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Sep 1st 2008, 04:30 PM
The parable of Lazarus, like all the other kingdom parables is showing us we will either reign with the Lord forever in eternity, or we will be buried and forgotten until the Day of Judgment.

Blessings,
RW

Forgotten until judgement? Doesn't sound like that Rich Man was just forgotten by any stretch. He asked for only a drop of water to cool his tongue. Sounds like he was runnin' a bit on the warm side. ;)

RogerW
Sep 1st 2008, 04:41 PM
Forgotten until judgement? Doesn't sound like that Rich Man was just forgotten by any stretch. He asked for only a drop of water to cool his tongue. Sounds like he was runnin' a bit on the warm side. ;)

The parable is teaching a Spiritual truth, not a literal truth.

Blessings,
RW

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 06:20 PM
Can Solomon be referring to the dead in Christ? How could he be, when he says "neither have they any more a reward"? They have no portion FOREVER in anything that is done under the sun? Is this a reference to the dead in Christ?

Ec 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ec 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
He can indeed be referring to the dead in Christ.

You seem to be assuming that because the book of Ecclesiastes is indeed the word of God, that the writer of that book knows the full counsel of God. Many of the authors of Old Testament books clearly did not.

Consider this contemplation from Job which shows that Job is at once thinking that "its all over when you die" and yet also holds out the breath of a hope for rescue from the grave:

"At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.

8 Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
9 yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant.
10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep. 13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2014&version=31#fen-NIV-13195b)]
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

Clearly Job's views about the afterlife are incomplete -he expresses the view that death is the end and a hope and then expresses the hope that it is not. Clearly Job does not have the total picture, although he clearly sees something of it.

So it is indeed perfectly possible that Solomon laments the end of the road for all humans, including those who, surprisingly for Solomon, will indeed rise again.

drew
Sep 1st 2008, 06:33 PM
How can this Psalm tell us the dead praise not the LORD, but then give us assurance that we (believers) will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore? If we who die in Christ go down into silence as "the dead", how will we praise the LORD for evermore? Evermore is the Hebrew word owlam andmeans time out of mind, perpetual, without end.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ps 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
These words are entirely consistent with the belief that even the "redeemed" go into a period of "unconscious waiting" only to arise again at a time of resurrection. The redeemed dead indeed "go into silence", but then are raised. And from the perspective of such a person, there has been no "interruption" - one moment you are on your deathbed, the next, from your perspective, you are being resurrected, even if you have factually been "resting" for thousands of years.

We have to look at the entire compass of scripture. And texts like this one from Daniel suggest rather clearly that all "sleep":

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

I suspect that some will argue here that the term "sleep", in respect to a redeemed person, is intended to denote that their body sleeps (is destroyed), yet they enjoy a conscious disembodied existence in Heaven. There are a number of problems with such a view:

1. It is based on a Greek dualism where there exists a body and consciousness bearing spirit. The writers of the Scriptures were primarily informed by Hebrew culture and ideas, where no such dualism existed.

2. The distinguishing characteristic of sleep is unconsciousness, not "bodily non-existence". So you have to think that Daniel is choosing a deeply misleading metaphor is his intention is to suggest a conscious state for the redeemed.

3. As posted earlier, it really takes the "oomph" out of 1 Cor 15 - if the redeemed dead are in full flower of conscious existence, there is no reason for Paul to wax so grandiosely, as he does, about their getting bodies. For the redeemed dead, all they are doing is "putting on a flesh suit" to house an already fully experiencing spirit. Paul would not describe the resurrection in such glowing terms if the redeemed were already fully conscious in heaven.

Toymom
Sep 1st 2008, 07:36 PM
Good answers so far, but I'm looking for more scriptural support.

Specifically, where in the bible does it say "we go to heaven when we die"?


It doesn't!



it does not.
The Bible does not say that we got to heaven when we die.
Not anywhere.

calidog
Sep 1st 2008, 08:25 PM
The Bible does not say that we got to heaven when we die.
Not anywhere.

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
Rev 6:10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'

Mograce2U
Sep 1st 2008, 09:39 PM
It seems to me that we fail to make the transition from the OT hope to the NT hope when we argue soul sleep or that the OT hope was being kept alive in the grave/ sheol or even whether we are to be alive but disembodied spirits in heaven. The story in Luke isn't even discussing these ideas, of that much I am sure.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man as given only in Luke 16 is in the context of a discussion about covetousness. The Pharisees like the rich man, had the wrong view of what was esteemed by God because of what they valued in this life. The unnamed rich man stands in the place of these Pharisees who are hearing this story. I don't think it is any coincidence on the part of the Lord either that He gave the name Lazarus to the beggar.

The scene which is after both have died, is moved to when the rich man has "lifted up his eyes" and found himself in hell, where he once again has a tongue which can thirst. This is a post-resurrection story, not one of how we will spend our time in the grave between death and the resurrection. Rather this is about the final fate of both these men.

And it is noteworthy that for the timing when this occurs in the story, his brothers are still alive - before one who has been raised from the dead had been sent to them. The timing of Luke's story is one that was told before Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead - which gives us a hint as to why He named the beggar "Lazarus" in the first place.

These Pharisees are the men who, like the rich man's brothers, will not hear Moses either - and they are the same ones who end up plotting to kill Lazarus after Jesus does raise him from the dead.

Which is a miracle that Luke doesn't record for us, but we can find in John 11. Both the telling of this story and the resurrection of Lazarus come just before Jesus goes up to Jerusalem for the final Passover. I am guessing that the story was told first and then the miracle was done to confirm His words.

Mike CP King
Sep 1st 2008, 09:44 PM
Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
Rev 6:10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'


Hi Calidog,
This verse can be compared with Genesis 4:10 when the Lord said, 'behold, I hear your brothers blood crying out to me..
As blood is the vehicle of 'nephesh' Leviticus 17:11, DT 12:23) and 'psuche', this makes sense to me without scripture contradicting itself. You will notice in the next verses that they are given 'white robes to wear' and wait a little longer. I don't believe this means they were in a disembodied state as 'psuche' also means the whole person.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 10:55 PM
Ecclesiastes 9 seems to be very clear about what happens when we die, especially verse 5 and verse 10:

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

This verse is being used from a strictly natural point of view:
under the sun.

It's not referring to any sort of spiritual knowledge or activity. Solomon is merely saying that everything that is strived over and worked for in this life will no longer be known in the afterlife. It will be of no concern.

Look at verse 6:

Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished
Nevermore will they have a share
in anything done under the sun

It appears that Solomon is referring to the wicked, whose lives are dominated by envy, hatred, and love (not a pure righteous love, but a love of things that are wicked). He is talking about those people who live for themselves, and their own vain pleasures....notice the phrase and they have no more reward.

Your interpretation of this verse does not seem to co-incide with the following:

Mt. 5:12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven.

If this verse is referring to the righteous and unrighteous dead, how could this be?

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

1 Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Notice the contrast between what the dead know, and what those who are alive in Christ know. The dead know nothing, but those who are in Christ shall know just as they are known.

I would love to know the meaning of the word know here in it's original context, as is used in both of these passages. Could someone give some insights?

calidog
Sep 1st 2008, 11:31 PM
Hi Calidog,
This verse can be compared with Genesis 4:10 when the Lord said, 'behold, I hear your brothers blood crying out to me..
As blood is the vehicle of 'nephesh' Leviticus 17:11, DT 12:23) and 'psuche', this makes sense to me without scripture contradicting itself. You will notice in the next verses that they are given 'white robes to wear' and wait a little longer. I don't believe this means they were in a disembodied state as 'psuche' also means the whole person.yes, I somewhat understand your view in this area of afterlife from previous posts, though I disagree.

MyGod
Sep 1st 2008, 11:55 PM
The Bible does not say that we got to heaven when we die.
Not anywhere.

What about Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

livingwaters
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:12 AM
2 Corinthians 5:8 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=2 Corinthians+5:8&version=9) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this just express a wish?:hmm::help:

revrobor
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:55 AM
Well legoman, why so many Believers have bought into this "...we go to heaven when we die..." thing is really mind-boggling. First of all a simple reading of Rev. 21 will show you that our eternal home will be on the New Earth God is going to create after He destroys this present Earth. In the meantime if we die before Jesus returns we will go to Paradise - the holding place for the righteous dead - and Jesus will be there with us. Remember what He said to the thief on the cross ("...you shall be with me in Paradise".). The problem is that it has been wrongly interpreted that Paradise and Heaven are the same place. That's just not true. It has also been assumed that when Jesus went to be with the Father in Heaven that He never leaves Heaven. There is no Scripture to support this. Therefore, people have wrongly assumed that WE go to Heaven when we die. NOT. Heaven is GOD'S domain. Headquarters, so to speak where, where our rewards and the records are kept. So don't look for a verse that says we go to Heaven (except a couple that use "Heaven" euphemistically) because there are none.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:28 AM
Well legoman, why so many Believers have bought into this "...we go to heaven when we die..." thing is really mind-boggling. First of all a simple reading of Rev. 21 will show you that our eternal home will be on the New Earth God is going to create after He destroys this present Earth. In the meantime if we die before Jesus returns we will go to Paradise - the holding place for the righteous dead - and Jesus will be there with us. Remember what He said to the thief on the cross ("...you shall be with me in Paradise".). The problem is that it has been wrongly interpreted that Paradise and Heaven are the same place. That's just not true. It has also been assumed that when Jesus went to be with the Father in Heaven that He never leaves Heaven. There is no Scripture to support this. Therefore, people have wrongly assumed that WE go to Heaven when we die. NOT. Heaven is GOD'S domain. Headquarters, so to speak where, where our rewards and the records are kept. So don't look for a verse that says we go to Heaven (except a couple that use "Heaven" euphemistically) because there are none.

This is a depressing thread :cry:....now I have to sleep on the fact that I am not going to Heaven when I die.

What a bummer!!!!!!! :(

Mograce2U
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:38 PM
This is a depressing thread :cry:....now I have to sleep on the fact that I am not going to Heaven when I die.

What a bummer!!!!!!! :(That's why it is important to know what our hope in Jesus' resurrection is. And why the OT saints looked forward to His coming. The OT saints were the ones who died, went to the grave and were to be resurrected from the dead. Those of us who have lived and believed in Him since the cross have the hope that we will never die but be passed from death to life. Eternal life IS the resurrected life, we are not to be disembodied spirits, but clothed upon with bodies made without hands.

The coming of Christ which He spoke of that would accomplish this was not a "visible bodily" coming as some preach today. Rather it was a coming as a thief "in the clouds" to put down and remove the wicked apostates and bring an end to that system and age. The sign that the saints were to know these things were being accomplished in the spiritual realm was when the armies surrounded Jerusalem in the earth. That was when they would know their redemption had drawn nigh. These firstfruits of the Spirit only had to wait a little while during this time the remnant of Israel was being gathered by the gospel.

Why we persist in thinking the dead have not been raised because the living did not "see" it, is the real puzzle. The transition for the living who have received the Holy Spirit has been secured for us and when death comes for this body we will pass over into eternal life. That is the hope the saints were waiting for which was in the first advent of Messiah - when the promise would be given to them and us who saw His arrival. That "us"/age is still ongoing as we are being gathered into the heavenly city that He went away before Pentecost to prepare for us. The sending of the Holy Spirit was to give them assurance for this hope during a time of tribulation until it arrived. And His presence in us ought to tell us that we have this hope as well now that these prophetic things have been fulfilled.

When He comes back to this earth - visibly and bodily - along with us who have been made like Him - is when the heavenly city descends to this then renewed earth prepared for glory - after all its wicked inhabitants have been removed along with the devil. Then Paradise will be restored forever after.

He will never leave us nor forsake us, not in this life and not in death. We will be with Him always - where He is. That means that first we must "go to heaven", where we will dwell with Him until He is ready to judge the earth. But first Satan will be sent once again to accelerate the timing for that day. Is it any wonder that Jesus lamented that faith would be the rarity in that day?

(Luke 18:8 KJV) I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The saints faced this danger between 33 - 70 AD, and it seems the end times saints will too when Satan goes out to deceive the world to come against us. Which only the gospel of our hope in Christ can restrain so that elect will not be deceived.

RogerW
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:48 PM
Well legoman, why so many Believers have bought into this "...we go to heaven when we die..." thing is really mind-boggling. First of all a simple reading of Rev. 21 will show you that our eternal home will be on the New Earth God is going to create after He destroys this present Earth. In the meantime if we die before Jesus returns we will go to Paradise - the holding place for the righteous dead - and Jesus will be there with us.

Where is Paradise? According to Scripture it is in heaven. Please note in the following verse that the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Also note that the holy Jerusalem descends out of heaven from God.

Re 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

One last passage for your consideration. Please note in the midst of the street of the holy Jerusalem we find the tree of life.

Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So according to you we go to paradise when we die, but we don't go to heaven? :hmm: As you can see if we go to paradise when we die, as you state, and I agree, then very clearly we go to heaven according to the Scripture. It's a little mind boggling I suppose for some, but facts are facts, and the Scripture cannot lie, nor contradict.



Remember what He said to the thief on the cross ("...you shall be with me in Paradise".). The problem is that it has been wrongly interpreted that Paradise and Heaven are the same place. That's just not true.

According to the Bible paradise and heaven are the same place.



It has also been assumed that when Jesus went to be with the Father in Heaven that He never leaves Heaven. There is no Scripture to support this. Therefore, people have wrongly assumed that WE go to Heaven when we die. NOT. Heaven is GOD'S domain. Headquarters, so to speak where, where our rewards and the records are kept. So don't look for a verse that says we go to Heaven (except a couple that use "Heaven" euphemistically) because there are none.

Your argument is with the Words of God! You'll have to take them up with Him.

Blessings,
RW

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:38 PM
Hi Legoman,

Boy, you take some convincing ;)


LOL thanks :)

This thread has turned into quite the debate - it is getting time-consuming for me to track every post and research all the verses quoted.

I have an answer for you though:



Can Solomon be referring to the dead in Christ? How could he be, when he says "neither have they any more a reward"? They have no portion FOREVER in anything that is done under the sun? Is this a reference to the dead in Christ?

Ec 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ec 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Solomon is still speaking to "the dead", telling them basically to enjoy all that living has to offer, for tomorrow they die. Their life (the dead) is vanity. Is the life of the one in Christ vanity? There is no rememberance in the grave for "the dead" but this does not describe those who have been given eternal life.

Ec 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
Ec 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
Ec 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

How can this Psalm tell us the dead praise not the LORD, but then give us assurance that we (believers) will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore? If we who die in Christ go down into silence as "the dead", how will we praise the LORD for evermore? Evermore is the Hebrew word owlam andmeans time out of mind, perpetual, without end.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ps 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Many Blessings,
RWTo summarize your point (let me know if this incorrect), you are saying Eccl 9:5 (the dead don't know anything) can't be referring to dead believers because Eccl 9:6 says those same group of dead will never have a portion..., and Psalm 115:18 says that we (believers) will bless the Lord for evermore. Basically saying if were "not knowing" in our death, thse other 2 verses would be a contradiction.

This wasn't quite sitting right with me and I finally figured out why:

WARNING HUGE TRANSLATION ERROR TO BE EXPOSED:
PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Here are the verses for reference from the KJV:

Eccl 9:6
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Psalm 118:18
"But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD."

Young's literal translation:

Eccl 9:6
"Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun."
Psalm 118:18
"And we, we bless Jah, From henceforth, and unto the age. Praise ye Jah!"

Notice what has happened here. "to/unto the age" has been translated as "forever". Notice if we had kept the original meaning (to the age), the verses are perfectly consistent with Eccl 9:5 and the meaning that all people go to the grave, and don't know anything.

This is shocking to me. This is now 3 times I've found that "never/forever" has really meant having to do with an "age". John 11:26 was the other one. What's going on here? Why is "to the age" being translated as "forever"? I would expect to the age to mean something similar to what it sounds. I believe this age (our current age) will end when Christ returns, and then the next age would be the millenium - so these verses are really refering to one or both of those ages.

What do you think?

Legoman

revrobor
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:16 PM
Where is Paradise? According to Scripture it is in heaven. Please note in the following verse that the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Also note that the holy Jerusalem descends out of heaven from God.

Re 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

One last passage for your consideration. Please note in the midst of the street of the holy Jerusalem we find the tree of life.

Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So according to you we go to paradise when we die, but we don't go to heaven? :hmm: As you can see if we go to paradise when we die, as you state, and I agree, then very clearly we go to heaven according to the Scripture. It's a little mind boggling I suppose for some, but facts are facts, and the Scripture cannot lie, nor contradict.



According to the Bible paradise and heaven are the same place.



Your argument is with the Words of God! You'll have to take them up with Him.

Blessings,
RW

You are using the "invisible text" method of interpretation - that is you are assuming meaning that is not there. "Heavens" and "heavenly" often refer to space and not Heaven itself. The fact that the New Jerusalem comes down "...from God in Heaven..." means it is a gift from our Creator and not that it comes out of His headquarters. But even if it does it has absolutely nothing to do with the location of Paradise or that Paradise and Heaven are the same thing. The location of the Tree of Life has nothing to do with whether Paradise of Heaven are the same place. Finally, I'm not arguing with the Words of God about anything. There are no "Words of God" that say Jesus never leaves Heaven. It is an assumption made by those who use the "invisible text" method of interpretation and who have propagated erroneous conclusions to otherwise simple truths.

legoman
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:44 PM
You are using the "invisible text" method of interpretation - that is you are assuming meaning that is not there. "Heavens" and "heavenly" often refer to space and not Heaven itself. The fact that the New Jerusalem comes down "...from God in Heaven..." means it is a gift from our Creator and not that it comes out of His headquarters. But even if it does it has absolutely nothing to do with the location of Paradise or that Paradise and Heaven are the same thing. The location of the Tree of Life has nothing to do with whether Paradise of Heaven are the same place. Finally, I'm not arguing with the Words of God about anything. There are no "Words of God" that say Jesus never leaves Heaven. It is an assumption made by those who use the "invisible text" method of interpretation and who have propagated erroneous conclusions to otherwise simple truths.

Hi revrobor,

Can you give more scripture about the difference between "paradise" and "heaven"?

Thanks,
Legoman

Mike CP King
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:52 PM
Paradise and heaven are not the same. It means "walled Garden", clearly a reference to the garden of Eden and the tree of life.

RogerW
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:12 PM
LOL thanks :)

This thread has turned into quite the debate - it is getting time-consuming for me to track every post and research all the verses quoted.

I have an answer for you though:

To summarize your point (let me know if this incorrect), you are saying Eccl 9:5 (the dead don't know anything) can't be referring to dead believers because Eccl 9:6 says those same group of dead will never have a portion..., and Psalm 115:18 says that we (believers) will bless the Lord for evermore. Basically saying if were "not knowing" in our death, thse other 2 verses would be a contradiction.

This wasn't quite sitting right with me and I finally figured out why:

WARNING HUGE TRANSLATION ERROR TO BE EXPOSED:
PROCEED WITH CAUTION!

Here are the verses for reference from the KJV:

Eccl 9:6
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Psalm 118:18
"But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD."

Young's literal translation:

Eccl 9:6
"Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun."
Psalm 118:18
"And we, we bless Jah, From henceforth, and unto the age. Praise ye Jah!"

Notice what has happened here. "to/unto the age" has been translated as "forever". Notice if we had kept the original meaning (to the age), the verses are perfectly consistent with Eccl 9:5 and the meaning that all people go to the grave, and don't know anything.

This is shocking to me. This is now 3 times I've found that "never/forever" has really meant having to do with an "age". John 11:26 was the other one. What's going on here? Why is "to the age" being translated as "forever"? I would expect to the age to mean something similar to what it sounds. I believe this age (our current age) will end when Christ returns, and then the next age would be the millenium - so these verses are really refering to one or both of those ages.

What do you think?

Legoman

Since I don't know what Hebrew word YLT used to translate "age" I can't really comment on the translation. But we can look at another verse from YLT that shows their use of "age" can mean forever or without end.

Ps 146:10 Jehovah doth reign to the age, Thy God, O Zion, to generation and generation, Praise ye Jah!

KJV Ps 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

Blessings,
RW

revrobor
Sep 2nd 2008, 09:41 PM
Hi revrobor,

Can you give more scripture about the difference between "paradise" and "heaven"?

Thanks,
Legoman

As you probably know there are no Scriptures about the difference. It's just that the Bible never refers to them as being the same place.

legoman
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:03 AM
As you probably know there are no Scriptures about the difference. It's just that the Bible never refers to them as being the same place.

Well I wasn't sure, but I hadn't heard "paradise" being discussed much before. But I'm not sure if we can take the one scripture where Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross as proof that paradise and heaven are different. But I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.

Did you see my previous post in this thread where I stated an alternative possibility about Jesus statement to the thief?

Some bible versions interpret the statement this way:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Note the different placement of the comma, and how it changes the whole meaning of the verse, namely that the thief and Jesus will not be in paradise today, but will be at some future point.

In fact the more I think about this, this must be the meaning. Where did Jesus go after he died? He descended to the dead. He didn't go to paradise or heaven. He descended to the dead, and then rose again after 3 days! I think this clinches it for me.

Unless you believe "paradise" is some compartment of hades.

Anyway, I welcome your thoughts.

Cheers,
Legoman

revrobor
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:56 AM
Well I wasn't sure, but I hadn't heard "paradise" being discussed much before. But I'm not sure if we can take the one scripture where Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross as proof that paradise and heaven are different. But I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.

Did you see my previous post in this thread where I stated an alternative possibility about Jesus statement to the thief?

Some bible versions interpret the statement this way:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Note the different placement of the comma, and how it changes the whole meaning of the verse, namely that the thief and Jesus will not be in paradise today, but will be at some future point.

In fact the more I think about this, this must be the meaning. Where did Jesus go after he died? He descended to the dead. He didn't go to paradise or heaven. He descended to the dead, and then rose again after 3 days! I think this clinches it for me.

Unless you believe "paradise" is some compartment of hades.

Anyway, I welcome your thoughts.

Cheers,
Legoman

Yes, I've heard that before. But for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't really matter. Paradise is the subject. When is another matter. For us who die now, before the Lord's return, we go to Paradise. I do not know the "location" of Paradise.

"Paradise" is also used in 2 Cor. 12:4. Here the CEV footnote says "In New Testament times this word is sometimes used for the place where God's people are happy at rest as they wait for the final judgement". It is also used for the Garden of Eden in Rev. 2:7.

legoman
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:42 PM
Yes, I've heard that before. But for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't really matter. Paradise is the subject. When is another matter. For us who die now, before the Lord's return, we go to Paradise. I do not know the "location" of Paradise.

"Paradise" is also used in 2 Cor. 12:4. Here the CEV footnote says "In New Testament times this word is sometimes used for the place where God's people are happy at rest as they wait for the final judgement". It is also used for the Garden of Eden in Rev. 2:7.

Ok thanks for those references. How do you reconcile that with Eccl 9:5 which says that the dead know nothing in the grave? If "paradise" is a "happy restful place" ie. its like sleep, then I could see it would agree with Eccl 9:5.

Or do you agree with Roger that Eccl 9:5 is only talking about non-believers?

RogerW
Sep 3rd 2008, 02:24 PM
Yes, I've heard that before. But for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't really matter. Paradise is the subject. When is another matter. For us who die now, before the Lord's return, we go to Paradise. I do not know the "location" of Paradise.

"Paradise" is also used in 2 Cor. 12:4. Here the CEV footnote says "In New Testament times this word is sometimes used for the place where God's people are happy at rest as they wait for the final judgement". It is also used for the Garden of Eden in Rev. 2:7.

Greetings revrobor,

With this I am in very close agreement. I think the CEV footnote is right on. I also believe that paradise can be likened to Abraham's bosom in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. When believers die, they go into the grave (hell) like every other physically dead body, but the essence of who they are, or the Spirit of believers, having been made alive by the Holy Spirit does not cease. If it did, then how can believers be promised life eternal? What exactly they do or know at this point, is uncertain. But, the martyred souls crying out from under the altar seems to indicate there is life. Of course we also know that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, so, we must ask what do the saints crying from under the altar symbolize?

My only question to you would be why are you so certain that paradise, or Abraham's bosom is not in heaven? We know that heaven is not our everlasting home, because we long to be clothed with our glorified bodies at the resurrection in the fullness of time, when we will live with Christ on the re-newed earth. And at that time we don't go to heaven, but in fact come with Christ from heaven to gather those who remain physically alive at His coming.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Since Christ is bringing with Him all who have died in Him, from where are they coming with Him? I would say paradise, or Abraham's bosom, and would argue that paradise is found in heaven.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:37 PM
Well I wasn't sure, but I hadn't heard "paradise" being discussed much before. But I'm not sure if we can take the one scripture where Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross as proof that paradise and heaven are different. But I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.

Did you see my previous post in this thread where I stated an alternative possibility about Jesus statement to the thief?

Some bible versions interpret the statement this way:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Note the different placement of the comma, and how it changes the whole meaning of the verse, namely that the thief and Jesus will not be in paradise today, but will be at some future point.

In fact the more I think about this, this must be the meaning. Where did Jesus go after he died? He descended to the dead. He didn't go to paradise or heaven. He descended to the dead, and then rose again after 3 days! I think this clinches it for me.

If Christ didn't go to the Father in Spirit why did He say to the Father:

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Stephen too, ask the Lord to receive his spirit when he was dying. Is not Stephen expecting to be received into heaven upon death? what is the significance, if any, to Stephen saying he saw "the heavens opened"?

Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ac 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Blessings,
RW

Mike CP King
Sep 3rd 2008, 06:46 PM
If Christ didn't go to the Father in Spirit why did He say to the Father:

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Stephen too, ask the Lord to receive his spirit when he was dying. Is not Stephen expecting to be received into heaven upon death? what is the significance, if any, to Stephen saying he saw "the heavens opened"?

Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ac 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,
I think it comes down to the definition of 'spirit'. For me, the spirit is the breath of life as in Genesis 2:7 when God breathed in his Ruah (breath of life into the moulded dust) and man became a living soul. The spirit then is not the immaterial part of a person, its like the 'antenna' to God's ways (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9) and his influence on human beings (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9). As in Ecclesiates 12:7 'the spirit returns to God who gave it'.

The idea that we have a dualistic nature is not really in keeping with the Hebrew idea that people are a 'totality', like an indivisible whole. Hence like 'soul' is often rendered 'the whole person' rather than 'parts of a person'.

revrobor
Sep 3rd 2008, 06:49 PM
Ok thanks for those references. How do you reconcile that with Eccl 9:5 which says that the dead know nothing in the grave? If "paradise" is a "happy restful place" ie. its like sleep, then I could see it would agree with Eccl 9:5.

Or do you agree with Roger that Eccl 9:5 is only talking about non-believers?

That verse refers to everyone who has died and know nothing of this earthly life as they are now in another world.

drew
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:39 PM
Hi Roger,
I think it comes down to the definition of 'spirit'. For me, the spirit is the breath of life as in Genesis 2:7 when God breathed in his Ruah (breath of life into the moulded dust) and man became a living soul. The spirit then is not the immaterial part of a person, its like the 'antenna' to God's ways (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9) and his influence on human beings (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9). As in Ecclesiates 12:7 'the spirit returns to God who gave it'.

The idea that we have a dualistic nature is not really in keeping with the Hebrew idea that people are a 'totality', like an indivisible whole. Hence like 'soul' is often rendered 'the whole person' rather than 'parts of a person'.
Hello Mike! Remember me from that other forum that shall remain nameless (I am using the same name here)? We have discussed this same issue over there.....

I think that you may agree that people are making an otherwise unjustified assumption that the spirit is the bearer of consciousness. This, as I think you will agree, is a very Greek idea that should not necessarily be read back into the writings of the Bible which emerge from a Hebrew culture.

So I think you and I will agree that the "breath of life" is not a consciousness bearing entitly that can be disentangled from the body.

Unfortunately, many western Christians buy their "mental furniture" from Plato's store....

RogerW
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:42 PM
Hi Roger,
I think it comes down to the definition of 'spirit'. For me, the spirit is the breath of life as in Genesis 2:7 when God breathed in his Ruah (breath of life into the moulded dust) and man became a living soul. The spirit then is not the immaterial part of a person, its like the 'antenna' to God's ways (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9) and his influence on human beings (Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9). As in Ecclesiates 12:7 'the spirit returns to God who gave it'.

The idea that we have a dualistic nature is not really in keeping with the Hebrew idea that people are a 'totality', like an indivisible whole. Hence like 'soul' is often rendered 'the whole person' rather than 'parts of a person'.

Greetings Mike,

I understand what you are saying. In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into human and he became a complete, and even perfect being. Had the human not fallen, we would not be having this discussion. But man did fall, and as a result of his fall something died or was taken from man. If it did not, then God was wrong when He told man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." I know that some argue He did not mean that very day, but a space of time defined by an age. I do not buy into this argument. The reason I disagree is that we must be born again by the Holy Spirit. This tells me that man did die in the garden that day, and what died was the Spirit breathed life that communed with God.

So man continues to live, he still has life or is a living soul; a thinking mortal being with mind, appetite, lust, pleasure, and breath, but now without the ability to know the and love the God who created him. His immortal spirit that could have lived forever was gone. So man grows old and finally his body (soul) wears out and it dies also.

Man can be phsically alive without spirit, but the soul of man is mortal. So when man's spirit died, he continued to live, but God had taken the immortal part, which is spirit from man. That is why Scripture tells us we must be born again to see, or enter the kingdom of God. When we are born again it is through the Holy Spirit living in us, and He promises to never leave us nor forsake us.

Soul - properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Spirit - wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This is a Psalm of Asaph. His soul (body, mind, desire) refused to be comforted, and his spirit (that part of him that knew God) was overwhelmed. Why? Because his spirit had diligently searched for the LORD, but he thought the mercy of the LORD was gone forever.

Ps 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.
Ps 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

Ps 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

We find the same thing in Isa as he finds comfort in both soul and spirit knowing that God would not abandon the faithful in captivity.

Many Blessings,
RW

Mike CP King
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:28 PM
Hello Mike! Remember me from that other forum that shall remain nameless (I am using the same name here)? We have discussed this same issue over there.....

I think that you may agree that people are making an otherwise unjustified assumption that the spirit is the bearer of consciousness. This, as I think you will agree, is a very Greek idea that should not necessarily be read back into the writings of the Bible which emerge from a Hebrew culture.

So I think you and I will agree that the "breath of life" is not a consciousness bearing entitly that can be disentangled from the body.

Unfortunately, many western Christians buy their "mental furniture" from Plato's store....

Hi Drew,
I remember you well! I still frequent at the "other forum"!

Yes, you are right, these threads are all about definition for me and having done theology from a Hebrew perspective, it is amazing to see how Greek influenced the western church really is.

dispen4ever
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:29 PM
The short answer is that the KOG and the KOH are not the same.

Blessings!

Mike CP King
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:39 PM
Greetings Mike,

I understand what you are saying. In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into human and he became a complete, and even perfect being. Had the human not fallen, we would not be having this discussion. But man did fall, and as a result of his fall something died or was taken from man. If it did not, then God was wrong when He told man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." I know that some argue He did not mean that very day, but a space of time defined by an age. I do not buy into this argument. The reason I disagree is that we must be born again by the Holy Spirit. This tells me that man did die in the garden that day, and what died was the Spirit breathed life that communed with God.

So man continues to live, he still has life or is a living soul; a thinking mortal being with mind, appetite, lust, pleasure, and breath, but now without the ability to know the and love the God who created him. His immortal spirit that could have lived forever was gone. So man grows old and finally his body (soul) wears out and it dies also.

Man can be phsically alive without spirit, but the soul of man is mortal. So when man's spirit died, he continued to live, but God had taken the immortal part, which is spirit from man. That is why Scripture tells us we must be born again to see, or enter the kingdom of God. When we are born again it is through the Holy Spirit living in us, and He promises to never leave us nor forsake us.

Soul - properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Spirit - wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This is a Psalm of Asaph. His soul (body, mind, desire) refused to be comforted, and his spirit (that part of him that knew God) was overwhelmed. Why? Because his spirit had diligently searched for the LORD, but he thought the mercy of the LORD was gone forever.

Ps 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.
Ps 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

Ps 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

We find the same thing in Isa as he finds comfort in both soul and spirit knowing that God would not abandon the faithful in captivity.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,
We are much closer in agreement than I thought.

There is one case where God stirs up someone via his spirit:

Jeremiah 51:11

11 "Sharpen the arrows,
take up the shields!
The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes,
because his purpose is to destroy Babylon.
The LORD will take vengeance,
vengeance for his temple.


It would suggest to me that a non beliver or in this case, a non Hebrew 'has ruach'!

The difference between a believer and non believer is the Holy Spirit which indwells the believer.

Back to the point that Drew and I made. A lot of Hebrew ideas were lost due to the influence of pagan Greek philosophy with Plato's idea that men are 'incarnated souls trapped in a flesh body' contrary to the Hebrew view that man is a totality, not a sum of body, soul and spirit, but the whole person is an indivisible being, a totality to the point that man does not have a soul, he is a soul. Similarly man does not have a body, he is a body.

The problem occurs when Greek definitions get read into the bible and the Hebrew ideas and meanings were lost.

calidog
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:26 PM
Back to the point that Drew and I made. A lot of Hebrew ideas were lost due to the influence of pagan Greek philosophy with Plato's idea that men are 'incarnated souls trapped in a flesh body' contrary to the Hebrew view that man is a totality, not a sum of body, soul and spirit, but the whole person is an indivisible being, a totality to the point that man does not have a soul, he is a soul. Similarly man does not have a body, he is a body.

The problem occurs when Greek definitions get read into the bible and the Hebrew ideas and meanings were lost.This from the hebrew text



Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Mike CP King
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:46 PM
This from the hebrew text



Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.



Hi Calidog,
Rather than get scripture to contradict itself, 'soul' is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'.

Here is the definition from Strong's:
Result of search for "nephesh":
5315 nephesh neh'-fesh from 5314 (http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Her 'soul' in the case would actually mean 'life'

EG..Leviticus 17:11 For the life (nephesh)of the flesh is in the blood.

The verse you quoted simply means here life ebbed away (was going, but going to a 'place'.

RogerW
Sep 4th 2008, 01:37 AM
Hi Roger,
We are much closer in agreement than I thought.

There is one case where God stirs up someone via his spirit:

Jeremiah 51:11

11 "Sharpen the arrows,
take up the shields!
The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes,
because his purpose is to destroy Babylon.
The LORD will take vengeance,
vengeance for his temple.

It would suggest to me that a non beliver or in this case, a non Hebrew 'has ruach'!

The difference between a believer and non believer is the Holy Spirit which indwells the believer.

Back to the point that Drew and I made. A lot of Hebrew ideas were lost due to the influence of pagan Greek philosophy with Plato's idea that men are 'incarnated souls trapped in a flesh body' contrary to the Hebrew view that man is a totality, not a sum of body, soul and spirit, but the whole person is an indivisible being, a totality to the point that man does not have a soul, he is a soul. Similarly man does not have a body, he is a body.

The problem occurs when Greek definitions get read into the bible and the Hebrew ideas and meanings were lost.

Hi Mike,

I'm glad we are in closer agreement than you thought. I hope we can come to a point where we are in full agreement :pp

Would you not agree that in the Old Testament there are many examples of God sending His Spirit to accomplish a specific purpose? This is certainly what we see in Jeremiah 51. In the OT the Spirit of God was not permanantly given, He is often seen coming upon certain individuals, in some cases, like certain prophets, again and again, for a specific purpose.

A good example is how the Spirit of God left King Saul, and an evil Spirit from God came upon him. This is why David cried out to God, "take not thy holy spirit from me."

Now living after the cross, more specifically after Pentecost, we have the Lord's promise to send His Spirit to indwell every believer, and we also have His promise that once the HS enters into the child of God, He will never leave.

Many Blessings,
RW

Mike CP King
Sep 4th 2008, 09:39 PM
Hi Mike,

I'm glad we are in closer agreement than you thought. I hope we can come to a point where we are in full agreement :pp

Would you not agree that in the Old Testament there are many examples of God sending His Spirit to accomplish a specific purpose? This is certainly what we see in Jeremiah 51. In the OT the Spirit of God was not permanantly given, He is often seen coming upon certain individuals, in some cases, like certain prophets, again and again, for a specific purpose.

A good example is how the Spirit of God left King Saul, and an evil Spirit from God came upon him. This is why David cried out to God, "take not thy holy spirit from me."

Now living after the cross, more specifically after Pentecost, we have the Lord's promise to send His Spirit to indwell every believer, and we also have His promise that once the HS enters into the child of God, He will never leave.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,
You are right, God did bring his holy Spirit upon people to do certain things;eg Samson and his abnormal strength.

I can't think of any other way than to cut paste a few course notes which highlights the difference between 'human ruach' and the Holy Spirit:

Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.

I hope this clears up this difference between what Stephen said at his stoning "receive my spirit" and what David said "take not thy Holy Spirit from me".

threebigrocks
Sep 5th 2008, 01:17 AM
Hi Roger,
You are right, God did bring his holy Spirit upon people to do certain things;eg Samson and his abnormal strength.

I can't think of any other way than to cut paste a few course notes which highlights the difference between 'human ruach' and the Holy Spirit:

Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.

I hope this clears up this difference between what Stephen said at his stoning "receive my spirit" and what David said "take not thy Holy Spirit from me".

So according to what you have said, Stephen could have as well been saying receive my experience of being in touch with you God?

Honestly, being indwelled with the Holy Spirit is more than an experience. It is the very nature of God who dwells within us. We are changed, it's not just a new experience.

Marc B
Sep 5th 2008, 01:40 AM
Just as we are part of the kingdom of heaven now we also have eternal life now. Most folks think of eternal life as some future occurrence after their death, but the Lord Jesus Christ declared that those who know Him have eternal life presently.

Please show me where it says all this in the Bible.

calidog
Sep 5th 2008, 02:29 AM
Please show me where it says all this in the Bible.
here's one place

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mograce2U
Sep 5th 2008, 02:30 AM
Please show me where it says all this in the Bible.
(John 6:53-54 KJV) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. {54} Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 John 3:14-15 KJV) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. {15} Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

(1 John 5:11-12 KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. {12} He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

(1 John 5:13 KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

calidog
Sep 5th 2008, 02:51 AM
Please show me where it says all this in the Bible.
here's a couple more

Joh 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Joh 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Mike CP King
Sep 6th 2008, 10:26 PM
So according to what you have said, Stephen could have as well been saying receive my experience of being in touch with you God?

Honestly, being indwelled with the Holy Spirit is more than an experience. It is the very nature of God who dwells within us. We are changed, it's not just a new experience.


Hi Roger,
Yes, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is more than the experiece.

The point I was making was that God's Ruah (the Holy Spirit) is different from Man's Ruah. The effect of God is being able to influence a person through his (man's) ruah is what is implied. Otherwise, you are suggesting man's ruah is the same as the Holy Spirit?

I cannot see your argument. For me 'my spirit' (Stephen speaking) is not the same as 'Holy Spirit'

Mike CP King
Sep 6th 2008, 10:31 PM
here's a couple more

Joh 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Joh 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hi Calidog,
In context, eternal life is promised to those who believe, and its certain to say that we will all die and will be raised again.

From John

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

Mograce2U
Sep 6th 2008, 11:39 PM
Personally, I like the KJV better for this passage:

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"though he were dead" is aortist subjunctive active, which considering that Jesus is about to resurrect Lazarus who just died, puts it in the right context. There is a clear contrast between those who have believed and already died (like Lazarus) - they will be resurrected; from those who are living and believing that never will - like Martha. Our hope post cross/ Pentecost is that we will be passed thru from death to life.

legoman
Sep 7th 2008, 02:28 AM
Just wanted to say I appreciate all the responses here, even though I haven't added anything in the last 50 posts or so. I started this thread to help solidify my beliefs, and I think all the discussion has helped me in that, even though I'm probably not 100% in agreement with any one person :)

Cheers,
Legoman