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immortality
Aug 28th 2008, 03:41 AM
The Danger Of Christian Complacency
By J.C. Ryle


The times require distinct and decided views of Christian doctrine. I cannot withhold my conviction that the professing Church is as much damaged by laxity and indistinctness about matters of doctrine within, as it is by skeptics and unbelievers without. Myriads of professing Christians nowadays seem utterly unable to distinguish things that differ. Like people afflicted with color–blindness, they are incapable of discerning what is true and what is false, what is sound and what is unsound. If a preacher of religion is only clever and eloquent and earnest, they appear to think he is all right, however strange and heterogeneous his sermons may be. They are destitute of spiritual sense, apparently, and cannot detect error. The only positive thing about them is that they dislike distinctiveness and think all extreme and decided and positive views are very naughty and very wrong!

These people live in a kind of mist or fog. They see things unclearly, and do not know what they believe. They have not made up their minds about any great point in the Gospel, and seem content to be honorary members of all schools of thought. For their lives they could not tell you what they think is truth about justification, or regeneration, or sanctification, or the Lord's Supper, or baptism, or faith or conversion, or inspiration, or the future state. They are eaten up with a morbid dread of controversy and an ignorant dislike of party spirit; and yet they really cannot define what they mean by these phrases. And so they live on undecided; and too often undecided; they drift down to the grave, without comfort in their religion, and, I am afraid, often without hope.

The explanation of this boneless, nerveless, jelly–fish condition of soul is not difficult to find. To begin with, the heart of man is naturally in the dark about religion—has no intuitive sense of truth—and really needs instruction and illumination. Besides this, the natural heart in most men hates exertion in religion, and cordially dislikes patient, painstaking inquiry. Above all, the natural heart generally likes the praise of others, shrinks from collision, and loves to be thought charitable and liberal. The whole result is that a kind of broad religious "agnosticism" just suits an immense number of people, and specially suits young persons. They are content to shovel aside all disputed points as rubbish, and if you charge them with indecision, they will tell you: "I do not pretend to understand controversy; I decline to examine controverted points. I dare say it is all the same in the long run"—Who does not know that such people swarm and abound everywhere?

Now I do beseech all to beware of this undecided state of mind in religion. It is a pestilence which walketh in darkness, and a destruction that wasteth at noonday. It is a lazy, idle frame of soul which, doubtless, saves man the trouble of thought and investigation but it is a frame of soul for which there is no warrant in the Bible. For your own soul's sake, dare to make up your mind what you believe, and dare to have positive, distinct views of truth and error. Never, never be afraid to hold decided doctrinal opinions; and let no fear of man and no morbid dread of being thought party–spirited, narrow, or controversial, make you rest contented with a bloodless, boneless, tasteless, colorless, lukewarm, undogmatic Christianity.

Mark what I say. If you want to do good in these times, you must throw aside indecision, and take up a distinct, sharply–cut, doctrinal religion. If you believe little, those to whom you try to do good will believe nothing. The victories of Christianity, wherever they have been won, have been won by distinct doctrinal theology; by telling men roundly of Christ's vicarious death and sacrifice; by showing them Christ's substitution on the cross, and His precious blood; by teaching them justification by faith, and bidding them believe on a crucified Savior; by preaching ruin by sin, redemption by Christ, regeneration by the Spirit; by lifting up the brazen serpent; by telling them to look and live—to believe, repent, and be converted. This—this is the only teaching which for centuries God had honored with success, and is honoring at the present day both at home and abroad.


It is doctrine—doctrine, clear, ringing doctrine which, like the ram's horn at Jericho casts down the opposition of the devil and sin. Let us cling to decided doctrinal views, whatever some may please to say in these times, and we shall do well for ourselves, well for others, and well for Christ's cause in the world.

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 07:25 PM
You like posting other people's writings, dont you?

immortality
Aug 28th 2008, 07:35 PM
You like posting other people's writings, dont you?

sometimes people just say stuff better than i ever could!

Emanate
Aug 28th 2008, 07:51 PM
sometimes people just say stuff better than i ever could!


You might be surprised.

Firstfruits
Aug 28th 2008, 07:51 PM
Doctrine has always been th problem from the begining, enven in the Garden of Eden, God says something and Satan says another.

There is a constant battle with the Gospel of Christ and what we are to teach/preach.

Is the following possible?

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Aug 28th 2008, 07:52 PM
1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

But now that that possibility is irrevocably gone, and utterly impossible to get back.... what now?

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 07:07 AM
But now that that possibility is irrevocably gone, and utterly impossible to get back.... what now?

With regards to the following are we therefore still carnel?

Rom 16:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Cor 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Firstfruits

jamesand57
Aug 29th 2008, 10:32 AM
Doctrine has always been th problem from the begining, enven in the Garden of Eden, God says something and Satan says another.

There is a constant battle with the Gospel of Christ and what we are to teach/preach.

Is the following possible?

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Firstfruits


Could you expand on that a bit, the Bible actually has quite a bit to say on sound doctrine.


1Ti 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Tit 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

1Ti 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

Firstfruits
Aug 29th 2008, 11:02 AM
Could you expand on that a bit, the Bible actually has quite a bit to say on sound doctrine.


1Ti 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Tit 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

1Ti 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

We all seem to have a different doctrine even though it was not given as different according to the following there is only one doctrine/gospel.

Here we see that it is possible;
Acts 2:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Rom 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Why have we changed?
1 Cor 14:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Eph 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The warning
2 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=63&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 Jn 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=63&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Hope this helps,

Firstfruits

Longsufferer
Aug 29th 2008, 07:17 PM
“Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.”
(Revelation.3:17)

Firstfruits
Aug 30th 2008, 11:40 AM
“Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.”
(Revelation.3:17)

Is that because of what they believe they have, according to the word, and possibly thinking it cannot be lost or taken away?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 1st 2008, 01:51 PM
With regards to the following are we therefore still carnel?

Rom 16:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Cor 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Firstfruits

Well, given that the church is hopelessly and irrevocably divided, I'll make the safe bet and say yes.

Firstfruits
Sep 1st 2008, 03:34 PM
Well, given that the church is hopelessly and irrevocably divided, I'll make the safe bet and say yes.

Thanks Hisleast,

With regards to the following, if we are carnal can we please God?

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

With the danger or warning about division and carnality, unless we put the scriptures before the teachings how can we be united and speak the same thing?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 1st 2008, 07:20 PM
With regards to the following, if we are carnal can we please God?

Rom 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

With the danger or warning about division and carnality, unless we put the scriptures before the teachings how can we be united and speak the same thing?

God will take pleasure in whatever He takes pleasure in. One thing I know with certainty is that Christianity is divided on nearly every question one can possibly ask. If that doesn't please God, then I think all of us are in for a very serious day of reckoning.

We could pore through the scriptures showing how displeasing division is to God. We can page through our bibles until our fingers are worn to stubs and our eyes have dried out and crumbled to dust. It won't make a lick of difference in the real world. People are always going to interpret the scriptures however they want, both corporately and individually.

Which brings me to my signature line.......

Firstfruits
Sep 1st 2008, 07:30 PM
God will take pleasure in whatever He takes pleasure in. One thing I know with certainty is that Christianity is divided on nearly every question one can possibly ask. If that doesn't please God, then I think all of us are in for a very serious day of reckoning.

We could pore through the scriptures showing how displeasing division is to God. We can page through our bibles until our fingers are worn to stubs and our eyes have dried out and crumbled to dust. It won't make a lick of difference in the real world. People are always going to interpret the scriptures however they want, both corporately and individually.

Which brings me to my signature line.......

Isn't that the worst kind of complacency there can be, knowing what we ought to be yet believe we cannot be, ignoring the word/command of God.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 1st 2008, 07:47 PM
Isn't that the worst kind of complacency there can be, knowing what we ought to be yet believe we cannot be, ignoring the word/command of God.

Maybe. Maybe not. I've messed up enough times in my life that deciding which was the worst is pretty far beyond the point.

So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:24 AM
Maybe. Maybe not. I've messed up enough times in my life that deciding which was the worst is pretty far beyond the point.

So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?


May be a bit strong but it does not change the fact that as long as we all have a different doctrine how can we be truly edified if we are all right?

1 Cor 14:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

What and how does it mean to try the spirits if they are of God?

1 Jn 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:26 PM
May be a bit strong but it does not change the fact that as long as we all have a different doctrine how can we be truly edified if we are all right?

So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?


What and how does it mean to try the spirits if they are of God?

And that's an excellent question. An interesting experiment would be to start a thread asking the same question and see how many unique answers you get. Then settle on a definition you like and, with its application figure out why there are so many mutually exclusive doctrines.

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:32 PM
So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?



And that's an excellent question. An interesting experiment would be to start a thread asking the same question and see how many unique answers you get. Then settle on a definition you like and, with its application figure out why there are so many mutually exclusive doctrines.

Thanks Hisleast,

As you thought of it are you willing to start it?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:10 PM
As you thought of it are you willing to start it?
To my everlasting discouragement, I already know the answer. :(

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:20 PM
To my everlasting discouragement, I already know the answer. :(

Would not say it was worth a try, knowing the dangers of division?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:25 PM
Would not say it was worth a try, knowing the dangers of division?

Not sure I understand what you're asking.

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:31 PM
Not sure I understand what you're asking.

We are told that division is carnality and to be carnal is enmity with God.

We are also told not to put any mans teaching above what is written so the word comes first, would that not be a good foundation for starting a new thread?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:39 PM
We are told that division is carnality and to be carnal is enmity with God.

We are also told not to put any mans teaching above what is written so the word comes first, would that not be a good foundation for starting a new thread?

I guess I wonder what a new thread will do. We're divided. That's the sad and brief truth of the matter. The problem isn't that we want to be divided. I'm pretty sure everyone (sorry, not EVERYONE, but most) would agree that what is written in the word comes first. The problem IS "what is written in the word".

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:43 PM
I guess I wonder what a new thread will do. We're divided. That's the sad and brief truth of the matter. The problem isn't that we want to be divided. I'm pretty sure everyone (sorry, not EVERYONE, but most) would agree that what is written in the word comes first. The problem IS "what is written in the word".

Does that mean that we are doomed to be enemies of God?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:49 PM
Does that mean that we are doomed to be enemies of God?

:dunno: If that's what the word of God says.

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:36 PM
:dunno: If that's what the word of God says.

Can we then claim to have the same mind of Christ, Christ is not divided, and he is definitely not schizophrenic.

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phil 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be like minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

2 Pet 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jud 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

If we can accept what we were given and not add to it or take away from it, would what we say be according to what is written?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:40 PM
Can we then claim to have the same mind of Christ, Christ is not divided, and he is definitely not schizophrenic.


No, we can't. So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:59 PM
No, we can't. So Christianity is divided on every single issue. What do we do now?

What did Jesus tell the disciples to preach, and who did Jesus call paul to preach about?

Note no scripture, I will let you find the answer.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 2nd 2008, 09:03 PM
What did Jesus tell the disciples to preach, and who did Jesus call paul to preach about?

Whatever it was, it didn't work.
But now that Christianity is divided on every single issue, what do we do now?

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 06:38 AM
Whatever it was, it didn't work.
But now that Christianity is divided on every single issue, what do we do now?

Would you agree that the following is a good foundation?

2 Pet 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jud 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

I believe as God commanded and as Paul Taught that we should not add to what we have been given.

What does the following mean?

2 Pet 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 3rd 2008, 11:41 PM
Would you agree that the following is a good foundation?

2 Pet 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jud 1:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

I believe as God commanded and as Paul Taught that we should not add to what we have been given.

What does the following mean?

2 Pet 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

But the Christian world finds division EVERYWHERE anyway. Will any of these scriptures mitigate the division between Catholocism and Protestantism? Not at all... because each things the other is adding / privately interpreting. Same goes for topics such as eschatology, osas/nosas, circumcision, baptism, the old testament law, the nature of the trinity, the properties of hell, how/when someone is saved, the nature of satan, arminianism/calvanism.

There's no end to the differences we have over doctrine, all of which are absolutely irreconcilable, even when each side considers the texts quoted above.

So what do we do now?

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 07:00 AM
But the Christian world finds division EVERYWHERE anyway. Will any of these scriptures mitigate the division between Catholocism and Protestantism? Not at all... because each things the other is adding / privately interpreting. Same goes for topics such as eschatology, osas/nosas, circumcision, baptism, the old testament law, the nature of the trinity, the properties of hell, how/when someone is saved, the nature of satan, arminianism/calvanism.

There's no end to the differences we have over doctrine, all of which are absolutely irreconcilable, even when each side considers the texts quoted above.

So what do we do now?

As you say it it what has been added or taken away from what we have been given that causes division, so why not leave what we have as it is written?

1 Cor 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 4th 2008, 12:57 PM
As you say it it what has been added or taken away from what we have been given that causes division, so why not leave what we have as it is written?
Ok. So ask ten different Christians "what is written". How do we reconcile the 2 to 10 different answers we get? Its not a question of "going with what's written". Its that everyone has a divided opinion on what the written material means. Thus, baring final judgment, Christianity will never be united. Ever. So what now?

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 01:25 PM
Ok. So ask ten different Christians "what is written". How do we reconcile the 2 to 10 different answers we get? Its not a question of "going with what's written". Its that everyone has a divided opinion on what the written material means. Thus, baring final judgment, Christianity will never be united. Ever. So what now?

It is not a case of asking what it means, but what it says.

2 Pet 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 4th 2008, 02:08 PM
It is not a case of asking what it means, but what it says.

2 Pet 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Things are "said" in order to communicate meaning. So you can't ask someone what something says without also indirectly asking what it means. So around we go in the circle again.

Christianity is not unified, and will never be unified. So being divided on every single issue... what do we do now?


2 Pet 1:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

As compelling as this is, it does nothing to reconcile the existent division amongst us. Despite the prohibition of "private interpretation" (and I'll bet we can get 10 different definitions of that in the span of one afternoon), people are still taking sides on topics such as....eschatology, osas/nosas, circumcision, baptism, the old testament law, the nature of the trinity, the properties of hell, how/when someone is saved, the nature of satan, arminianism/calvanism.

Who's right? What does the word "say"?

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 02:34 PM
Things are "said" in order to communicate meaning. So you can't ask someone what something says without also indirectly asking what it means. So around we go in the circle again.

Christianity is not unified, and will never be unified. So being divided on every single issue... what do we do now?



You're right, HisLeast. Everyone has a different understanding of the meaning of what is written, and everyone has a different understanding of just what Apostolic doctrine is - we're living over 1,900 years since the apostles were around for people to ask, "What do you mean, Paul?" or "Why did you say that, Peter?"

So now we have 10 Christians and 15 opinions.

So what do we do now?

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another. By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another." (Joh.13: 34-35).

"Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." (1Cor.13: 13).

So what do we do now?

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 03:52 PM
Things are "said" in order to communicate meaning. So you can't ask someone what something says without also indirectly asking what it means. So around we go in the circle again.

Christianity is not unified, and will never be unified. So being divided on every single issue... what do we do now?



As compelling as this is, it does nothing to reconcile the existent division amongst us. Despite the prohibition of "private interpretation" (and I'll bet we can get 10 different definitions of that in the span of one afternoon), people are still taking sides on topics such as....eschatology, osas/nosas, circumcision, baptism, the old testament law, the nature of the trinity, the properties of hell, how/when someone is saved, the nature of satan, arminianism/calvanism.

Who's right? What does the word "say"?

The disciples preached what they had witnessed concerning Jesus, according to what was written, what was written they saw fulfilled. That is what Jesus said they should preach to every nation. But the problem we have is that Jesus is not enough even though we say that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. We have therefore added to what was commanded and created the problem disunity.

Firstfruits