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poochie
Aug 29th 2008, 02:14 AM
Today I was out soul winning with 2 brothers and we met some new-evangelical Southern Baptists. One of the brothers was smoking a huge cigar. We had a chat with them and I told them that smoking was not right
and I quoted them a verse stating that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I also stated that smoking was not a sin that lead to eternal hellfire and I stated that smoking was no better or worse than someone that drinks soda and eats ice cream all day long.

The 2 brothers with me confronted me about my comments and said that I was condoning smoking.

What do you guys say about smoking?

Remnant
Aug 29th 2008, 02:54 AM
Smoking is not the sin, It is what smoking does to a person that becomes the sin.

1. It has been proven to be harmful to the body! The body is the temple of God and if we know to do good and don't do it, then it becomes a sin. So if we know that it harms the body, which is the temple of God then it is a sin. So is gluttony or drinking too much alcohol.

OrdainedLady
Aug 29th 2008, 04:25 AM
Today I was out soul winning with 2 brothers and we met some new-evangelical Southern Baptists. One of the brothers was smoking a huge cigar. We had a chat with them and I told them that smoking was not right
and I quoted them a verse stating that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I also stated that smoking was not a sin that lead to eternal hellfire and I stated that smoking was no better or worse than someone that drinks soda and eats ice cream all day long.

Smoking is certainly not healthy, but is not, as you stated, a sin that leads to "eternal hellfire". The other thing about smoking that is probably its biggest drawback physically and spiritually is the fact that it can so easily become addictive. Anything that we become addicted to we become a slave to and in essence become idolators of. And we know that in the Bible we are told idolatry is condemned by God.



The 2 brothers with me confronted me about my comments and said that I was condoning smoking.

I think that you had the right idea in speaking to those two about their choice to smoke cigars (and just as an aside, you should probably know that smoking cigars *is* different than smoking cigarettes as one does not inhale cigar smoke as cigarette smokers inhale cigarette smoke), yet not condemning them for their choice. And you are correct, smoking is no different than choosing to over eat (how many grossly overweight preachers have you seen that will condemn smoking and alcohol from the pulpit and no one ever says a word to them about their gluttony? ;-) There are also those who will condemn smokers, yet continually drive over the speed limit or sit in their Lazy-Boy recliners all day playing video games. None of those habits are healthy, but none of them are injurious to one's salvation. The worst part of all is that if one is unhealthy as a direct result of those bad habits, how can one be effective for the Kingdom if illness keeps one from ministering or evangelizing or teaching?

Congratulations on taking the spiritual high-road, Poochie! :thumbsup:

poochie
Aug 29th 2008, 10:13 AM
I was with 2 Fundamentalist brothers and many times these types can be extremely legalistic. The only reason I am at this Fundamentalist niversity working on my Masters of Divinity is because I got a scholarship that covers my tuition based on my academic excellence earned at my undergraduate evangelical university.

Other wise I would have went to Liberty University, Masters, or the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

It was during that time that I turned into a Fundamentalist (kinda). But after having experienced these type, I can honestly say that as soon as my education is finished I dont plan to associate with them. God has convicted me about my former ways of blasting others because they worshiped in a contemporary form.

Thanks..

Yes smoking is bad and very harmful. But Fundamentalists often major on minors and condemn everyone else. The Bible is quite clear that some sins are more deadly than others, but many of them treat listening to Contemporary Christian music or contemporary worship as a HUGE HUGE sin.




Smoking is certainly not healthy, but is not, as you stated, a sin that leads to "eternal hellfire". The other thing about smoking that is probably its biggest drawback physically and spiritually is the fact that it can so easily become addictive. Anything that we become addicted to we become a slave to and in essence become idolators of. And we know that in the Bible we are told idolatry is condemned by God.



I think that you had the right idea in speaking to those two about their choice to smoke cigars (and just as an aside, you should probably know that smoking cigars *is* different than smoking cigarettes as one does not inhale cigar smoke as cigarette smokers inhale cigarette smoke), yet not condemning them for their choice. And you are correct, smoking is no different than choosing to over eat (how many grossly overweight preachers have you seen that will condemn smoking and alcohol from the pulpit and no one ever says a word to them about their gluttony? ;-) There are also those who will condemn smokers, yet continually drive over the speed limit or sit in their Lazy-Boy recliners all day playing video games. None of those habits are healthy, but none of them are injurious to one's salvation. The worst part of all is that if one is unhealthy as a direct result of those bad habits, how can one be effective for the Kingdom if illness keeps one from ministering or evangelizing or teaching?

Congratulations on taking the spiritual high-road, Poochie! :thumbsup:

Romulus
Aug 29th 2008, 01:44 PM
I am a smoker myself. I don't believe smoking is a sin. Remember Jesus said that it is not what goes into the body that is sin, but what comes out(heart.) Does that mean that everything is good for you, of course not!Yes it is not good for you, yes it will take a toll on your health, yes it will become addictive(that is not good) but it is no different then what I call the Kool-Dog factor. Eating hot dogs and drinking kool aid will also take a toll on your health in the long run and will eventually kill you. Is eating hot dog a sin? How about coffee? Coffee has caffeine and is addicting, but yet it is not considered wrong. It must be done in moderation along with everything else.

A nice smoke after a meal and/or a cup of coffee is quite enjoyable. Will I stop, yes eventually since it is not good for you but nonetheless. What is a sin is if you smoke around someone who hates it or somewhere not allowed. If you want to enjoy a cigar/cigarette fine, but it does make people sick who are not used to it. Anyhow, I have found that some of the nicest people I have met, are smokers who were simply outside and I joined them. Rather then pester smokers and tell them it is wrong, why not simply greet and start a conversation without judging them. If you were a smoker, you won't remember that you just met someone nice and kind but rather that you met someone who judged you. Do you want to be remembered for that? Remember it is the heart that counts, not what is put in the body.

Kool-aid forever! :pp

Sold Out
Aug 29th 2008, 02:40 PM
Today I was out soul winning with 2 brothers and we met some new-evangelical Southern Baptists. One of the brothers was smoking a huge cigar. We had a chat with them and I told them that smoking was not right
and I quoted them a verse stating that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I also stated that smoking was not a sin that lead to eternal hellfire and I stated that smoking was no better or worse than someone that drinks soda and eats ice cream all day long.

The 2 brothers with me confronted me about my comments and said that I was condoning smoking.

What do you guys say about smoking?

Yeah, you shouldn't have said anything. You are not the Holy Spirit, and it's HIS job to convict someone of something like this. I'm sure he's heard it from plenty of other people (that smoking is bad). If that were me, I would have been offended.

MrAnteater
Aug 29th 2008, 03:54 PM
To the people who say smoking is a sin I say this: When is the last time you went and ate some fast food?

You know fast food is bad for you and yet choose to eat it anyways. It can cause obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, ect. But you say you don't eat it all the time, therefore it's OK. So I say the same thing about the occasional smoker.

Smoking, though not a good habit for sure, is like any other behavior. If it's become an addiction in your life, acting as an idol, than the behavior needs to be addressed with God. But for the person who may enjoy the cigar or smoke after a meal, than you can't give me biblical reason why this activity shouldn't be allowed.

OrdainedLady
Aug 29th 2008, 04:24 PM
To the people who say smoking is a sin I say this: When is the last time you went and ate some fast food?

You know fast food is bad for you and yet choose to eat it anyways. It can cause obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, ect. But you say you don't eat it all the time, therefore it's OK. So I say the same thing about the occasional smoker.

Smoking, though not a good habit for sure, is like any other behavior. If it's become an addiction in your life, acting as an idol, than the behavior needs to be addressed with God. But for the person who may enjoy the cigar or smoke after a meal, than you can't give me biblical reason why this activity shouldn't be allowed.

You're correct, Anteater. Smoking is one of the last "no-no's" of the church that's left over from the puritan precepts disguised as Christianity.:B

The conservative Christian university I attended (many years ago) had the standard rules: no smoking, no drinking, no card-playing, no dancing, no sex (amongst the unmarried students). Movies were discouraged, but allowed with a caveat. We had to sign a conduct code every year that stated we would not engage in any of these things even off-campus. While the same code is still in place, the school now allows the student to do these things off campus if they choose.

The church has long attempted to legislate morality and in doing so has (IMO) tried to act as the Holy Spirit. Ah, well...

Friend of Jesus
Aug 29th 2008, 05:47 PM
The difference between smoking and fast food (I don't eat that either) is that smoking harms others around you, not just yourself. Therefore, unless you do it in private, is rather selfish on the smoker's behalf.

keck553
Aug 29th 2008, 06:09 PM
That's one "Do to your neighbor as you would do to yourself" things I wouldn't welcome!

drew
Aug 30th 2008, 04:14 AM
To the people who say smoking is a sin I say this: When is the last time you went and ate some fast food?

You know fast food is bad for you and yet choose to eat it anyways. It can cause obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, ect. But you say you don't eat it all the time, therefore it's OK. So I say the same thing about the occasional smoker.

Smoking, though not a good habit for sure, is like any other behavior. If it's become an addiction in your life, acting as an idol, than the behavior needs to be addressed with God. But for the person who may enjoy the cigar or smoke after a meal, than you can't give me biblical reason why this activity shouldn't be allowed.
Well, I agree about the junk food issue. In North American evangelicalism, we call smoking sin and yet fully embrace over-eating ourselves into illness.

I would be extremely reticent to suggest that even any smoking is OK though - why do any harm to your body? Same thing with the junk food. And while I have never smoked, I do sometimes eat less than well.

In any event, the idea I would speak out against is the idea that "my body is going to dust and the 'real' me is non-physical spirit, so it really does not fundamentally matter what I do to my body". This idea, I suggest is non-Scriptural.

Look at Jesus - His resurrection body still bore the damage from His crucifixion. I suggest that there is an important lesson there.

embankmentlb
Aug 30th 2008, 07:04 AM
Normal life span of a lucky person, lets say 75 years. Life span of a person who abuses food, coffee, work, sleep, tobacco, alcohol, fill-in-the-blank, lets say 60 years. What is 15 years along side ethereal life?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 30th 2008, 07:16 AM
Smoking as a sin...

The "your body is a temple" argument is spurious and pointless. That passage is referring to sexual sins - we read our own interpretation into it when we apply it to multiple circumstances. If we were to truly apply it we'd have to stop drinking soda, eating food with preservatives, and move out of cities that had smog problems.

Smoking isn't a sin in any way, shape, or form. I - personally - think it's disgusting (cigarette smoking that is....cigars and pips are nice), but I won't condemn anyone for it. I also think anchovies on a pizza are disgusting as well. Doesn't mean anything.

As a side note: Don't blame the Puritans. They weren't as strict as everyone makes them out to be. Remember, some of the first buildings the Puritans built were breweries. ;)

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 08:26 AM
I understand there are a number of liberals on this board.

I am looking to dialog with someone not a pure Fundamentalist, but also not a liberal.


Smoking as a sin...

The "your body is a temple" argument is spurious and pointless. That passage is referring to sexual sins - we read our own interpretation into it when we apply it to multiple circumstances. If we were to truly apply it we'd have to stop drinking soda, eating food with preservatives, and move out of cities that had smog problems.

Smoking isn't a sin in any way, shape, or form. I - personally - think it's disgusting (cigarette smoking that is....cigars and pips are nice), but I won't condemn anyone for it. I also think anchovies on a pizza are disgusting as well. Doesn't mean anything.

As a side note: Don't blame the Puritans. They weren't as strict as everyone makes them out to be. Remember, some of the first buildings the Puritans built were breweries. ;)

Laish
Aug 30th 2008, 08:39 AM
H i poochie
Not to derail your thread here but what is your definition of a liberal an a fundamentalist.
To be honest those two terms seem to differ from person to person . You use the two so often I would like to know what you mean when you use the two words
example many folks believe if you read the Bible you are a fundamentalist .
An some believe if you use a modern language Bible you are a liberal .
Not picking on you brother just like to see where you are coming from ,when you use the two words
Your brother in Christ
Bill

Duane Morse
Aug 30th 2008, 09:27 AM
Today I was out soul winning with 2 brothers and we met some new-evangelical Southern Baptists. One of the brothers was smoking a huge cigar. We had a chat with them and I told them that smoking was not right
and I quoted them a verse stating that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I also stated that smoking was not a sin that lead to eternal hellfire and I stated that smoking was no better or worse than someone that drinks soda and eats ice cream all day long.

The 2 brothers with me confronted me about my comments and said that I was condoning smoking.

What do you guys say about smoking?
So, in the same conversation you said that smoking was both wrong - and not wrong.

???

Which is it?

Your IP shows that you are wishy-washy. Lukewarm.

What does Jesus say about those that are lukewarm?

chal
Aug 30th 2008, 10:02 AM
I don't think comparing smoking to eating fast food is wrong because smoking harms others. Everything we do (good or bad) is like a ripple in a stream, because we don't live in a vaccum. There is no such thing as "I'm only hurting myself." What about the people who care about you, your family and friends etc?

I think that comparison is wrong simply because you can't excuse something that you are doing wrong, by pointing to what others do wrong, i.e., "two wrongs don't make a right." Jesus said, "Follow me." He didn't say follow the crowd, or even to stay one step ahead of the crowd. He is our standard, not some vague concept of being better than the other guys.

SIG
Aug 30th 2008, 10:37 AM
Since we're quoting Romans 12 out of context, I might as well have a shot:

Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all {refer} {to} things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, {but are} of no value against fleshly indulgence.


And, once again:

"In the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."

Is smoking an essential?

graceforme
Aug 30th 2008, 10:46 AM
I think on of the reasons that smoking is singled out is because it has been proven to be so harmful to those who are around smokers on a regular basis. If I eat at McDonald's, I'm only hurting myself physically. If I smoke in my home, I am also harming those who also live here.

I, too, have heard sermons on smoking and drinking from preachers who obviously aren't too particular about what they eat. It's not a very good witness. And smoking or drinking also are not a very good witness. Smoking certainly won't send you to hell, but it certainly will destroy your witness to to others and also your physical health here on earth.

However, I don't think it's good idea to tell someone that they are wrong to smoke - not unless they ask you about it. It makes us come off as being judgmental. If someone comes to my house or rides in my car who smokes, and lights one up, I will be quick to remind them that we don't smoke and would they please not smoke in our house or car.

My father died a horrible death from lung cancer. He smoked for as long as I could remember, but stopped smoking in 1969. I have lost several dear friends to this horrible disease. Cigar smoking IS different since folks don't inhale the smoke. They are, however, much more prone to oral cancer, as are those who chew tobacco. Tobacco, no matter what form you choose, is a deadly choice.

I smoked for years, and those who chose to criticize me or lecture me about it had no impact on my decision to stop smoking. God convicted me and the HE took it away from me.

I think it grieves God that we continue to destroy ourselves with our own choices, not only with our personal habits, but also the way we are destroying our environment. God made the earth (and us) very pure and healthy, and look what we've done. The fact remains that we can't change the hearts of those around us by "nagging, berating, or brow-beating" them.

Many blessings to all.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 01:14 PM
Fundamentalist- Separatists and those that hold to the five fundamentals of the Chr faith (Jesus is God, The Trinity, The authority of the Bible, Salvation by Faith, the return of Christ).

Liberals- Bible deniers

For more info check out these articles

Liberal Christianity (http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/liberal_christianity.htm)
Christian Fundamentalism (http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/jesus_traditionalism.htm)


H i poochie
Not to derail your thread here but what is your definition of a liberal an a fundamentalist.
To be honest those two terms seem to differ from person to person . You use the two so often I would like to know what you mean when you use the two words
example many folks believe if you read the Bible you are a fundamentalist .
An some believe if you use a modern language Bible you are a liberal .
Not picking on you brother just like to see where you are coming from ,when you use the two words
Your brother in Christ
Bill

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 01:22 PM
Yes but the Bible says that we need to speak against sin and not allow it. Its very important to preach against smoking and to condemn it. Its also important to preach against Gluttony (but few pastors outside of Seventh Day Adventists) are concerned about their health.

Condemning sin is taught in the Bible. But when we become self-righteous and create a bunch of man made rules and judge someones spiritual testimony by these rules then we have a problem.


However, I don't think it's good idea to tell someone that they are wrong to smoke - not unless they ask you about it. It makes us come off as being judgmental. If someone comes to my house or rides in my car who smokes, and lights one up, I will be quick to remind them that we don't smoke and would they please not smoke in our house or car. I smoked for years, and those who chose to criticize me or lecture me about it had no impact on my decision to stop smoking. God convicted me and the HE took it away from me.

I think it grieves God that we continue to destroy ourselves with our own choices, not only with our personal habits, but also the way we are destroying our environment. God made the earth (and us) very pure and healthy, and look what we've done. The fact remains that we can't change the hearts of those around us by "nagging, berating, or brow-beating" them. Many blessings to all.

MrAnteater
Aug 30th 2008, 03:24 PM
Yes but the Bible says that we need to speak against sin and not allow it. Its very important to preach against smoking and to condemn it. Its also important to preach against Gluttony (but few pastors outside of Seventh Day Adventists) are concerned about their health.

Condemning sin is taught in the Bible. But when we become self-righteous and create a bunch of man made rules and judge someones spiritual testimony by these rules then we have a problem.

You have no biblical evidence to support the statement smoking is a sin.

I would argue smoking a cigar once a week would have absolutely no adverse effects on your health whatsoever. Just like eating fast food once a week also would not.

You do, however, have the right to judge and rebuke me if I was committing adultery, for example. We have clear scriptural evidence this is sinful activity.

We live under grace. That doesn't grant us the license to commit adultery, drunkennesses, homosexuality, or any other item specifically called out as sinful activity. We are given freedom, under grace, to let the holy spirit guide us on all other items not specifically condemned as sin in scripture.

Remnant
Aug 30th 2008, 03:39 PM
Smoking as a sin...

The "your body is a temple" argument is spurious and pointless. That passage is referring to sexual sins ;)

When we become born again we then have the Indwelling Holy Spirit Living in us according to John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We were bought with a heavy price and we now belong to Him. The body that we have now belongs to Him. Any type of sin that permeates or goes into it defiles the temple where the Holy Spirit lives in us. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.

You say it only means sexual sin. May I ask what scripture and were did you arrive at that conclusion?

Servant of the Lord,
Frank

apothanein kerdos
Aug 30th 2008, 04:51 PM
When we become born again we then have the Indwelling Holy Spirit Living in us according to John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We were bought with a heavy price and we now belong to Him. The body that we have now belongs to Him. Any type of sin that permeates or goes into it defiles the temple where the Holy Spirit lives in us. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.

You say it only means sexual sin. May I ask what scripture and were did you arrive at that conclusion?

Servant of the Lord,
Frank

Do you eat purely organic food in every aspect, including the beef? Do you live in a city that is completely smog free? Do you exercise?

If you don't do the above (and much more) then you're violating your own interpretation of Scripture.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 04:59 PM
Normal life span of a lucky person, lets say 75 years. Life span of a person who abuses food, coffee, work, sleep, tobacco, alcohol, fill-in-the-blank, lets say 60 years. What is 15 years along side ethereal life?

First of all, God only promised us three-score and ten (70 years). :pray:

Secondly, the life span of the average American has increased drastically over the last several decades. :pp

Lastly, do you have references you can cite for your statements above? :hmm:

Remnant
Aug 30th 2008, 05:05 PM
Do you eat purely organic food in every aspect, including the beef? Do you live in a city that is completely smog free? Do you exercise?

If you don't do the above (and much more) then you're violating your own interpretation of Scripture.

You did not respond or answer my question:

Originally Posted by Remnant http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1769223#post1769223)
When we become born again we then have the Indwelling Holy Spirit Living in us according to John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We were bought with a heavy price and we now belong to Him. The body that we have now belongs to Him. Any type of sin that permeates or goes into it defiles the temple where the Holy Spirit lives in us. It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me.

You say it only means sexual sin. May I ask what scripture and were did you arrive at that conclusion?

Servant of the Lord,
Frank


Their are impurities that enter our body all the time, even the air we breath. So your reasoning is without merit. The Bible says that if we know to do good and don't do it then it is a sin. I am not knowledgeable enough to know everything that is harmful to the body, but the ones I know, I stay away from and avoid.

Their are precepts and principles in God's word that tells us what we can do and not do and their are consequences for such.

Again, can you tell me a scripture or show me where the scripture refering to the body being the temple of God is refereing to sexual sins? 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 05:06 PM
I understand there are a number of liberals on this board.

I am looking to dialog with someone not a pure Fundamentalist, but also not a liberal.

Why so intentionally discriminating, Poochie? From what you've posted here and in other threads, you seem to believe that people fit neatly into boxes labeled "liberal" or "fundamentalist" or "conservative" or ??? (etc.) :confused

Is it fair to yourself and others to draw these kinds of lines in the sand? If you think about it, when you do such compartmentalizing you are also doing the Lord a disservice. He created people to be diverse in all kinds of ways, didn't He? If you have a world filled with the same kind of people with the same mindsets, what kind of Creator would God be? (certainly not a very creative one...) ;)

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 05:15 PM
Yes but the Bible says that we need to speak against sin and not allow it.

My goodness...how in the world do you propose not "allow[ing]" others to sin??? :o



Its very important to preach against smoking and to condemn it.

Why is it "important" from your viewpoint? And isn't "condemn" a little strong? :idea: How about just stating that smoking (among other activities) is unhealthy, rather than singling out and "condemning" smoking alone?



Its also important to preach against Gluttony (but few pastors outside of Seventh Day Adventists) are concerned about their health.

That's not really true. There are several movements within Christianity that advocate a healthy eating lifestlye.



Condemning sin is taught in the Bible. But when we become self-righteous and create a bunch of man made rules and judge someones spiritual testimony by these rules then we have a problem.

From what you've said above, it seems to me that you are thinking self-righteously one minute on this issue and backing off the next. From what I can tell, you seem conflicted on this matter, Poochie. :cool:

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 05:17 PM
Liberals- Bible deniers

:oWhat!???:eek:

amazzin
Aug 30th 2008, 05:19 PM
Why don't we first define sin?

What is sin according to God's Word?

Sin is not subjective and when we recognise God's definition of sin, then we could measure all of these others things with the Word of God and what it says about what sin is.

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 30th 2008, 06:35 PM
To the people who say smoking is a sin I say this: When is the last time you went and ate some fast food?

You know fast food is bad for you and yet choose to eat it anyways.


Absolutely. Did you ever see the movie Supersize Me? :o

apothanein kerdos
Aug 30th 2008, 06:47 PM
You did not respond or answer my question:


Their are impurities that enter our body all the time, even the air we breath. So your reasoning is without merit. The Bible says that if we know to do good and don't do it then it is a sin. I am not knowledgeable enough to know everything that is harmful to the body, but the ones I know, I stay away from and avoid.

Their are precepts and principles in God's word that tells us what we can do and not do and their are consequences for such.

Again, can you tell me a scripture or show me where the scripture refering to the body being the temple of God is refereing to sexual sins? 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

I did answer the question. I'm showing the illogical application of your interpretation.

As for it referring to sexual sin, did you not read the context prior to verse 19?


"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh." But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

It's in reference to sexual sin. By your own interpretation we would have to do all we can to avoid harmful things - again, do you eat purely organic food?

Equipped_4_Love
Aug 30th 2008, 06:52 PM
You say it only means sexual sin. May I ask what scripture and were did you arrive at that conclusion?

Servant of the Lord,
Frank

There really is no specific Scripture, per se, but everytime Paul uses the analogy of our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, He is speaking in the context of sexual sin....not anything physical.

I personally don't think smokling is a sin, but even so, it's not very edifying of the Lord:

1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

I smoked for over 13 yrs. before the Lord delivered me. While I don't think that smoking is a sin, if I were to take it up again having been delivered, I do think that it would definitely be sinning on my part:

Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly

Friend of Jesus
Aug 30th 2008, 06:52 PM
While it is questionable whether smoking is a sin or not, my sense tells me that smoking isn't such a good idea. I could do without the lung cancer and breathing problems.

calidog
Aug 30th 2008, 07:02 PM
You say it only means sexual sin. May I ask what scripture and were did you arrive at that conclusion?



1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

danield
Aug 30th 2008, 07:18 PM
I do not think Smoking is a sin. It is not very smart at all if you do, but it is not a sin. However, If you smoke around someone else and cause them to inhale your smoke it is a sin. Second hand smoke causes cancer. So if you cause someone else to go though horrible radiation and chemo treatments just because you wanted to puff up, that is a great sin. You gave that person no choice of inhaling your smoke. However, if you feel that you must smoke then it is not a sin, but it is really, really stupid. You do not want to die like that.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 07:39 PM
Yes but smoking can bee associated with evil. The Bible also warns us to abstain from the appearance of evil. Going to fast food is not associated with evil.


You have no biblical evidence to support the statement smoking is a sin.

I would argue smoking a cigar once a week would have absolutely no adverse effects on your health whatsoever. Just like eating fast food once a week also would not.

You do, however, have the right to judge and rebuke me if I was committing adultery, for example. We have clear scriptural evidence this is sinful activity.

We live under grace. That doesn't grant us the license to commit adultery, drunkennesses, homosexuality, or any other item specifically called out as sinful activity. We are given freedom, under grace, to let the holy spirit guide us on all other items not specifically condemned as sin in scripture.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 07:41 PM
You need to read the book.

Ashamed of the Gospel- When the Church Becomes like the World



Why so intentionally discriminating, Poochie? From what you've posted here and in other threads, you seem to believe that people fit neatly into boxes labeled "liberal" or "fundamentalist" or "conservative" or ??? (etc.) :confused

Is it fair to yourself and others to draw these kinds of lines in the sand? If you think about it, when you do such compartmentalizing you are also doing the Lord a disservice. He created people to be diverse in all kinds of ways, didn't He? If you have a world filled with the same kind of people with the same mindsets, what kind of Creator would God be? (certainly not a very creative one...) ;)

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 07:45 PM
Yes but smoking can bee associated with evil. The Bible also warns us to abstain from the appearance of evil. Going to fast food is not associated with evil.

It depends on the eye of the beholder. If someone who is SDA saw you eating meat and working on the Sabbath, they would consider your acts evil and against God. If a Catholic saw you eating meat on Friday, they might consider you evil and against God. If someone who holds to the Hallelujah Acres diet saw you eating red meat and sugar and flour products, they would likely consider you evil and against God. :thumbsdn:

If a life-long Southern Baptist saw someone smoking and dancing outside a Southern Baptist church, they probably would think that person evil and against God. :monkeyd:

It's all in the eye of the beholder. ;)

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 07:46 PM
I would agree that God is a majestic and creative God. So people will be different. However many of the liberal Christians have itching ears, and want sermons that meet their felt needs.

Many of these type are Ashamed of the Gospel.


Luke 9:26 (NIV)

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.



Why so intentionally discriminating, Poochie? From what you've posted here and in other threads, you seem to believe that people fit neatly into boxes labeled "liberal" or "fundamentalist" or "conservative" or ??? (etc.) :confused

Is it fair to yourself and others to draw these kinds of lines in the sand? If you think about it, when you do such compartmentalizing you are also doing the Lord a disservice. He created people to be diverse in all kinds of ways, didn't He? If you have a world filled with the same kind of people with the same mindsets, what kind of Creator would God be? (certainly not a very creative one...) ;)

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 07:54 PM
You need to read the book.

Ashamed of the Gospel- When the Church Becomes like the World

I've read it.

By recommending this book are you suggesting that those who do not fit into a list of doctrinal and/or denomination parameters are of the world?

If so, please see my post previous to this re: the eye of the beholder.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
I would agree that God is a majestic and creative God. So people will be different.

You're doing good so far...



However many of the liberal Christians have itching ears, and want sermons that meet their felt needs.

Everybody wants sermons that meet their needs. If they don't get it, they should find a church that meets their needs.



Many of these type are Ashamed of the Gospel.

Wow, that's really a sweeping generalization, Poochie. I sincerely doubt that you have any way of knowing that to be fact and suspect this is an concept you have been taught by pastors, teachers, or others you see as authoritative. If you're not careful, the thing you said that could brand you a bigot is "these type". Using that term paints you as someone with an "us vs. them" mentality. (I'm not saying you are a bigot, I'm saying that using certain words and phrases can unfairly brand you as such if you use them)

Our battle is not to be against flesh and blood, you know.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 08:10 PM
The problem with that type of thinking is that it leads to liberalism, Post-Modernism (no absolutes) and other hellfire ways of thinking.

The Bible is the authority and should be preached and held too.


I've read it.

By recommending this book are you suggesting that those who do not fit into a list of doctrinal and/or denomination parameters are of the world?

If so, please see my post previous to this re: the eye of the beholder.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 08:13 PM
Everybody wants sermons that meet their needs. If they don't get it, they should find a church that meets their needs.



This is precisely the problem.

Read this verse.

2 Tim 4:11-5 (KJV)
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 08:20 PM
The Lord has directed me to the book of Jeremiah and I have been reading it.

Many Charismatics and Pentecostals like to attack me and my articles that I write, preach,etc.. Although I have also been attacked by New-Evangelicals, Catholics and King James Version Only Fundamentalists, but the majority of attacks are from the 1st 2 groups.

Jeremiah was heavily attacked verbally and physically for his bold stance for the truth.

Brethren boldly preaching the word wll make us enemies and people will hate us. if the world does not hate us, then we MAY NOT not preaching the word.

Refer to what Jesus said.

John 7:7
John 15:18




You're doing good so far...



Everybody wants sermons that meet their needs. If they don't get it, they should find a church that meets their needs.



Wow, that's really a sweeping generalization, Poochie. I sincerely doubt that you have any way of knowing that to be fact and suspect this is an concept you have been taught by pastors, teachers, or others you see as authoritative. If you're not careful, the thing you said that could brand you a bigot is "these type". Using that term paints you as someone with an "us vs. them" mentality. (I'm not saying you are a bigot, I'm saying that using certain words and phrases can unfairly brand you as such if you use them)

Our battle is not to be against flesh and blood, you know.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 08:25 PM
The problem with that type of thinking is that it leads to liberalism, Post-Modernism (no absolutes) and other hellfire ways of thinking.

With all due respect Poochie, you're once again trying to fit people into a slot. IMO, you're doing it because it makes you more comfortable. IOW: "The liberal is going to hell because he doesn't believe exactly like I do. The post-modernist is going to hell because he doesn't believe like I do. The ones with itching ears are going to hell because they don't believe like I do." What if the one with itching ears, the post modernist, and the liberal are all saved, born-again, professing followers of Jesus Christ?



The Bible is the authority and should be preached and held too.

Sure...but which Bible?

poochie
Aug 30th 2008, 08:28 PM
John 14:6- Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life, but no man comes to the father except through him.

There is no other way to salvation apart from Christ.


With all due respect Poochie, you're once again trying to fit people into a slot. IMO, you're doing it because it makes you more comfortable. IOW: "The liberal is going to hell because he doesn't believe exactly like I do. The post-modernist is going to hell because he doesn't believe like I do. The ones with itching ears are going to hell because they don't believe like I do." What if the one with itching ears, the post modernist, and the liberal are all saved, born-again, professing followers of Jesus Christ?



Sure...but which Bible?

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 08:32 PM
The Lord has directed me to the book of Jeremiah and I have been reading it.

Many Charismatics and Pentecostals like to attack me and my articles that I write, preach,etc.. Although I have also been attacked by New-Evangelicals, Catholics and King James Version Only Fundamentalists, but the majority of attacks are from the 1st 2 groups.

Jeremiah was heavily attacked verbally and physically for his bold stance for the truth.

Brethren boldly preaching the word wll make us enemies and people will hate us. if the world does not hate us, then we MAY NOT not preaching the word.

Refer to what Jesus said.

John 7:7
John 15:18

This is not said in ridicule for what you have just written, but do you realize that by taking on a martyr's mentality you are making excuses for presenting the Gospel badly? People disagreeing with you is not the same as Christian martyrdom, you know.

OrdainedLady
Aug 30th 2008, 08:35 PM
John 14:6- Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life, but no man comes to the father except through him.

There is no other way to salvation apart from Christ.

Yes, it is true that there is no other way to salvation apart from Christ.

Question 1: Are you saying that the post-modernist or the liberal or those with itching ears can not have ever been saved?

Question 2: Do you believe in eternal security?

graceforme
Aug 30th 2008, 09:15 PM
If you had been more consistent with your witness to him, he might have listened to you. However, basically the only way his smoking the cigar would concern you would be if it interfered with your breathing or if he was in your home, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that it was not of your concern to point out his sin to him. I'm sure, based on the fact that you were not consistent with your "advice" to him, he probably blew it off right away anyway.

I think your heart is in the right place, you just need to be a little more discriminating and pick your battles a little better.

Many blessings to you.

poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 12:16 AM
Jumping to conclusions is never a good idea.

The man listened to me, he even threw away his cigar. Perhaps he may smoke again, buit the bold bible message was preached.


If you had been more consistent with your witness to him, he might have listened to you. However, basically the only way his smoking the cigar would concern you would be if it interfered with your breathing or if he was in your home, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that it was not of your concern to point out his sin to him. I'm sure, based on the fact that you were not consistent with your "advice" to him, he probably blew it off right away anyway.

I think your heart is in the right place, you just need to be a little more discriminating and pick your battles a little better.

Many blessings to you.

Remnant
Aug 31st 2008, 02:05 AM
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


This is simply saying that sexual sin is not only sinning against the Lord but also against our own self and brings consequences to it. It is not saying that Sexual sin is the only thing that defiles the temple of God which is our body.

Again, can you tell me a scripture or show me where the scripture refering to the body being the temple of God is referring to sexual sins? 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Read the underlined part real close! Their is another scripture that says what ever you do, do it for the Glory of God. Whatever you drink, whatever you eat. Whatever! covers a lot of territory.

I am not saying you are doing this, but it amazes me what great lengths people will go through to justify sin.

This is also for you apothanein (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=16496)in answer to your post!

historyb
Aug 31st 2008, 02:16 AM
I am a smoker myself. I don't believe smoking is a sin. Remember Jesus said that it is not what goes into the body that is sin, but what comes out(heart.) Does that mean that everything is good for you, of course not!Yes it is not good for you, yes it will take a toll on your health, yes it will become addictive(that is not good) but it is no different then what I call the Kool-Dog factor. Eating hot dogs and drinking kool aid will also take a toll on your health in the long run and will eventually kill you. Is eating hot dog a sin? How about coffee? Coffee has caffeine and is addicting, but yet it is not considered wrong. It must be done in moderation along with everything else.

A nice smoke after a meal and/or a cup of coffee is quite enjoyable. Will I stop, yes eventually since it is not good for you but nonetheless. What is a sin is if you smoke around someone who hates it or somewhere not allowed. If you want to enjoy a cigar/cigarette fine, but it does make people sick who are not used to it. Anyhow, I have found that some of the nicest people I have met, are smokers who were simply outside and I joined them. Rather then pester smokers and tell them it is wrong, why not simply greet and start a conversation without judging them. If you were a smoker, you won't remember that you just met someone nice and kind but rather that you met someone who judged you. Do you want to be remembered for that? Remember it is the heart that counts, not what is put in the body.

Kool-aid forever! :pp

Great Post! I smoke a Pipe once in a while myself. I love a good smoke after a great meal.

calidog
Aug 31st 2008, 02:22 AM
Again, can you tell me a scripture or show me where the scripture refering to the body being the temple of God is referring to sexual sins? 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

you tell me.



1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

sure sounds like sexual sin to me but you are free to add what you want.

Remnant
Aug 31st 2008, 02:33 AM
you tell me.



1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

sure sounds like sexual sin to me but you are free to add what you want.

I have already told you!


This is simply saying that sexual sin is not only sinning against the Lord but also against our own self and brings consequences to it. It is not saying that Sexual sin is the only thing that defiles the temple of God which is our body.


20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

How anyone can deny that when they were born again and now the Holy Spirit indwells them can say that only sexual sins are harmful to the body and the temple of God? Bunk!


Read the underlined part real close! Their is another scripture that says what ever you do, do it for the Glory of God. Whatever you drink, whatever you eat. Whatever! covers a lot of territory.

I am not saying you are doing this, but it amazes me what great lengths people will go through to justify sin.

poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 10:14 AM
What a shame.

1 Cor 10:31 (ESV)
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.


Great Post! I smoke a Pipe once in a while myself. I love a good smoke after a great meal.

poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 10:17 AM
It also is beyond me how anyone can come to such a conclusion. Its either ignorance of Gods word, a refusal to obey it, or they are just not saved.


I have already told you!



20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

How anyone can deny that when they were born again and now the Holy Spirit indwells them can say that only sexual sins are harmful to the body and the temple of God? Bunk!

apothanein kerdos
Aug 31st 2008, 05:13 PM
It also is beyond me how anyone can come to such a conclusion. Its either ignorance of Gods word, a refusal to obey it, or they are just not saved.

Or we understand the proper use of hermeneutical methods. We understand that if we take 1 Corinthians to apply to any impurity against the body, then we would have to change our eating habits (as in, eating purely organic food), where we sleep, how we sleep, and so on.

Smoking cigarettes is a disgusting habit that is harmful, but it's certainly no sin.

historyb
Aug 31st 2008, 08:43 PM
What a shame.

1 Cor 10:31 (ESV)
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Do not bind another's conscience

poochie
Sep 1st 2008, 01:57 AM
1 Cor 14:38

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Or we understand the proper use of hermeneutical methods. We understand that if we take 1 Corinthians to apply to any impurity against the body, then we would have to change our eating habits (as in, eating purely organic food), where we sleep, how we sleep, and so on.

Smoking cigarettes is a disgusting habit that is harmful, but it's certainly no sin.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 1st 2008, 03:47 PM
1 Cor 14:38

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

It's so easy to misapply Scripture as you have adequately shown.

Remnant
Sep 1st 2008, 03:57 PM
It's so easy to misapply Scripture as you have adequately shown.

I think the opposite is true in this case for you!

You call yourself a philosopher and well and good and you speak of hermeneutics. Are you also a bible scholar?


Again how can anyone who is born again say that only sexual sin is harmful to the body which is the Indwelling temple of God?

apothanein kerdos
Sep 1st 2008, 04:39 PM
I think the opposite is true in this case for you!

You call yourself a philosopher and well and good and you speak of hermeneutics. Are you also a bible scholar?


Again how can anyone who is born again say that only sexual sin is harmful to the body which is the Indwelling temple of God?

I gave you the context. Are you a Biblical Scholar? Though I'm not a scholar, I'd venture to say I have enough training in Biblical hermeneutics to know what is going on.

The fact is, the context deals solely with sexual sins. Paul is drawing a correlation to the temple of God. He is arguing that no one would commit sexual sins in the temple (as it was expressly forbidden in the Law), thus it makes no sense to commit sexual sins with our own body.

Furthermore, you haven't responded to my attack on the application of your interpretation. Again, if we apply "your body is a temple" to every instance, you can't drink soda, sweet tea, food with preservatives, and so on. You'd have to eat solely organic food while drinking the most purified water.

The problem with your interpretation and application is:

1) It goes beyond the context of the passage
2) It's impossible to live up to
3) It doesn't make any sense in terms of application

I've been called ignorant, not saved, and other things for offering up this explanation. The only thing that hasn't been done is someone actually responding to what I've pointed out.

Simply put, smoking isn't a sin. There is no way to justify that claim.

Remnant
Sep 1st 2008, 05:03 PM
apothanein, You said:

I gave you the context. Are you a Biblical Scholar? Though I'm not a scholar, I'd venture to say I have enough training in Biblical hermeneutics to know what is going on.

Yes, I would and and many others would consider me so. Twenty five years of being so.

Sir, the problem with your assumption and philosphy is not based on biblical interpretation but one of taken scripture out of context and not the whole coucil of God.

I will ask you again: Does any other sin beside sesual sin defile the body? Yes or No will be just fine.

Does the Holy Spirit indwell the beliver after salvation?

Is the Holy Spirit God? If so Is He Holy?

Emanate
Sep 1st 2008, 05:06 PM
Biblical Scholar = Someone trained by a school of thought to interpret the bible based on a particular viewpoint.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 05:17 PM
Biblical Scholar = Someone trained by a school of thought to interpret the bible based on a particular viewpoint.


Scholar

A learned person
Someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines
A specialist in a particular branch of knowledge
A student
Biblical Scholar

A learned person in Biblical studies
Someone who by long study has gained mastery in Biblical studies
A specialist in the Bible
A student of the Bible

apothanein kerdos
Sep 1st 2008, 05:21 PM
Yes, I would and and many others would consider me so. Twenty five years of being so.

Really? So you understand the nuances of Koine Greek, where it differs from Classical Greek, understand the history and geography of the New Testament, hold a PhD in Biblical studies (or something similar), and so on? Which method of interpretation do you adhere to?


Sir, the problem with your assumption and philosphy is not based on biblical interpretation but one of taken scripture out of context and not the whole coucil of God.

No, my method is the historical-grammatical method. I tend to look and see what the passage as a whole is attempting to convey. With that in mind, it is impossible to apply "your body is a temple" to an overarching meaning lest we run into multiple application problems of the interpretation. Furthermore, that isn't even close to the message that Paul is trying to convey.

If you look at the history of the Corinthian church you can see that they had no problem diving into Latin and Hellenistic practices in sex, particularly in engaging with temple prostitutes. This is why Paul uses the imagery that he does.


I will ask you again: Does any other sin beside sesual sin defile the body? Yes or No will be just fine.
According to what Paul says, no. It seems Paul is arguing that sexual sins are the only ones that immediately defile the body.


Does the Holy Spirit indwell the beliver after salvation?

Is the Holy Spirit God? If so Is He Holy?

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Can you even come close to answering my questions or my comments? Or are you merely capable of questioning others without defending your own position with nothing more than "No it's not!"

The fact is, the context deals solely with sexual sins. Paul is drawing a correlation to the temple of God. He is arguing that no one would commit sexual sins in the temple (as it was expressly forbidden in the Law), thus it makes no sense to commit sexual sins with our own body.

Furthermore, you haven't responded to my attack on the application of your interpretation. Again, if we apply "your body is a temple" to every instance, you can't drink soda, sweet tea, food with preservatives, and so on. You'd have to eat solely organic food while drinking the most purified water.

The problem with your interpretation and application is:

1) It goes beyond the context of the passage
2) It's impossible to live up to
3) It doesn't make any sense in terms of application

I've been called ignorant, not saved, and other things for offering up this explanation. The only thing that hasn't been done is someone actually responding to what I've pointed out.

Simply put, smoking isn't a sin. There is no way to justify that claim.

Emanate
Sep 1st 2008, 05:28 PM
Scholar

A learned person
Someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines
A specialist in a particular branch of knowledge
A student
Biblical Scholar

A learned person in Biblical studies
Someone who by long study has gained mastery in Biblical studies
A specialist in the Bible
A student of the Bible



I am well aware of the dictionary application.

Can you tell me how many Methodist Pastors, teachers graduated from L.I.F.E. Bible College?

How many Rabbis "graduated" from RHEMA bible 'college'?

How many Imams graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary?

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 05:41 PM
I am well aware of the dictionary application.

Can you tell me how many Methodist Pastors, teachers graduated from L.I.F.E. Bible College?

How many Rabbis "graduated" from RHEMA bible 'college'?

How many Imams graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary?

Sure, there are doctrine and dogma based schools out there. But if one applies spiritual discernment (or at least consults with someone who has the gift of spiritual discernment) to their decision of where to study or what to latch onto and what to throw out in their studies, then one is studying wisely. To make a sweeping generalization that all who call themselves Biblical scholars are only drinking the Kool-Aid supplied by their chosen institution of learning is just wrong.

I've said this here before, and I think it's worth repeating: we start learning the moment we are born - if we're wise we don't stop learning until the day we die. Thoughts, feelings, ideas, and concepts change over time. We either make a conscious decision to grow in our understanding of the Word or we make a conscious decision to dig in our heels and stay where we are. The latter, IMO, limits God in how he can "grow" us spiritually.

A true Biblical Scholar is someone who is not afraid to continue learning and growing in their knowledge of God.

Remnant
Sep 1st 2008, 05:43 PM
apothanein You said:

According to what Paul says, no. It seems Paul is arguing that sexual sins are the only ones that immediately defile the body.


Quote:
Does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer after salvation?

Is the Holy Spirit God? If so Is He Holy?
This is completely irrelevant to the discussion.



It has every thing to do with this! If one is not saved then they would never understand and know that the Holy Spirit now lives in us. Also that we are to be holy in our conduct for He is holy. We are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.

You can skirt and deny the Holy Spirit living in us as God and the indwelling Holy Spirit is Holy. None the less this is relevant!

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and many other sins defile the temple where the Holy Spirit lives in the believing Christian.

You can continue believing what you like, but it does not change the truth. The truth is this, Our body now belongs to Christ and it was bought with a heavy price. he became the sacrificial lamp and He left the Holy Spirit as a comforter, a seal, a guide a the living God in us and we now have a responsibility to do everything we can to keep it as holy and pure as possible.

Smoke if you like, Drink, if you must, Lie if you will, curse if it makes you feel better, but please don't try to convince us that it is okay to sin against the body as long as it is not a sexual sin. Again, Bunk!

apothanein kerdos
Sep 1st 2008, 05:53 PM
It has every thing to do with this! If one is not saved then they would never understand and know that the Holy Spirit now lives in us. Also that we are to be holy in our conduct for He is holy. We are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.

You can skirt and deny the Holy Spirit living in us as God and the indwelling Holy Spirit is Holy. None the less this is relevant!

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and many other sins defile the temple where the Holy Spirit lives in the believing Christian.

So you're calling Paul a liar?

Verse 18 makes it pretty clear:

Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

In other words, Paul is arguing what I have been arguing - only sexual sins are against the body. Thus, unless smoking is somehow classified as a sexual sin, it's not a sin (at least not against the body).


You can continue believing what you like, but it does not change the truth. The truth is this, Our body now belongs to Christ and it was bought with a heavy price. he became the sacrificial lamp and He left the Holy Spirit as a comforter, a seal, a guide a the living God in us and we now have a responsibility to do everything we can to keep it as holy and pure as possible.

Then again:

Do you exercise regularly? Do you eat purely organic foods? Do you avoid tea? Do you avoid soda? Do you live in a low polluted city? Do you avoid using hairspray? What about deodorant or soap?

All of these, in some way, have a positive or negative effect on the body. Are you as condemning of those who eat non-organic food as those who smoke?

SIG
Sep 1st 2008, 09:55 PM
So you're calling Paul a liar?

Verse 18 makes it pretty clear:

Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

In other words, Paul is arguing what I have been arguing - only sexual sins are against the body. Thus, unless smoking is somehow classified as a sexual sin, it's not a sin (at least not against the body).



Then again:

Do you exercise regularly? Do you eat purely organic foods? Do you avoid tea? Do you avoid soda? Do you live in a low polluted city? Do you avoid using hairspray? What about deodorant or soap?

All of these, in some way, have a positive or negative effect on the body. Are you as condemning of those who eat non-organic food as those who smoke?

AK--Tried to give you rep, but cannot yet....

Yes--we can apply, or try to apply, Romans 12 ad absurdum. This seems a Christian mirror-image of kosher law (trying to keep ourselves "clean"). Even if we eat as well as we know how, we are dying. Even if we exercise, we could burst our heart...etc. etc. This focus is still on external elements entering in; sexual sin is quite different.

Yet some can't resist a list of Rules For Christians. (sigh)

And, again:
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all {refer} {to} things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, {but are} of no value against fleshly indulgence.

SIG
Sep 1st 2008, 10:04 PM
[QUOTE=Remnant;1771793]The truth is this, Our body now belongs to Christ . . . and we now have a responsibility to do everything we can to keep it as holy and pure as possible. QUOTE]

Without meaning to appear rude...exactly how holy and pure are you keeping?
How exactly do we measure this, and what exactly is adequate?

Mograce2U
Sep 1st 2008, 11:19 PM
Today I was out soul winning with 2 brothers and we met some new-evangelical Southern Baptists. One of the brothers was smoking a huge cigar. We had a chat with them and I told them that smoking was not right
and I quoted them a verse stating that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I also stated that smoking was not a sin that lead to eternal hellfire and I stated that smoking was no better or worse than someone that drinks soda and eats ice cream all day long.

The 2 brothers with me confronted me about my comments and said that I was condoning smoking.

What do you guys say about smoking?I am wondering why you felt it necessary to mention this to 2 brothers who were minding their own business? If smoking truly is a sin then it is condemned and you would be correct to warn them hellfire awaits if they do not repent - oh wait, you did say there were brothers. If it is not a sin then you perhaps should have kept your silence and not taken upon yourself the role of being their judge. Apparently you are not sure yourself, so how is your wisdom revealed as being any better than theirs?

Perhaps instead you could of spoken to them of deliverance and the power of the Lord to overcome the stongholds in one's life. Something like "have you ever tried to quit?" or perhaps "have you ever thought about quitting?" or even "don't you wish you could quit?" It seems there could have been many less confrontive or more gracious ways to have this discussion than to lift a scripture from its context and then declare a bit arbitrarily that one is guilty of breaking this command because of your application for it.

I mean, if they were brothers, then isn't this the Holy Spirit's job and not yours? I mean after all He is the one who is inhabiting their temple and keeping it holy. It seems to me if He has not made His objections known to them, then why should yours carry more weight?

(1 Tim 5:24-25 KJV) Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. {25} Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

(Rom 14:3-4 KJV) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. {4} Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Smoking is more akin to eating than it is to fornication. Can you tell me what other use that God may have had in mind for creating tobacco? Even poppy seeds and cacao leaves have a beneficial purpose, and probably marijuana too. Which obviously can be and are abused by some. Which is not offered for justification, only consideration.