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Berti
Aug 30th 2008, 12:30 AM
So I know there was a discussion on this earlier (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=9937), and the poll was almost a perfect 50 50 split.

But here's my question, is sleeping together fully clothed and just cuddling acceptable? I understand the whole being above reproach thing and avoiding temptation. I am a college sophomore dating a strong Christian man whom I love whole heartedly. We are both completely committed to save ourselves til marriage. We even joke about it at times. If we get tempted, we talk openly about it and I think we have a good handle on things. In a case such as my own hypothetically, wouldn't a strong Christian couple be able to fall asleep in each other's company or no?

And furthermore...is the reason why there is a 50 50 split on the subject because it depends if a couple struggles with temptation? Or is there a 50 50 split because it's a gray area with no real answer?

just curious

Athanasius
Aug 30th 2008, 12:49 AM
So I know there was a discussion on this earlier (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=9937), and the poll was almost a perfect 50 50 split.

But here's my question, is sleeping together fully clothed and just cuddling acceptable? I understand the whole being above reproach thing and avoiding temptation. I am a college sophomore dating a strong Christian man whom I love whole heartedly. We are both completely committed to save ourselves til marriage. We even joke about it at times. If we get tempted, we talk openly about it and I think we have a good handle on things. In a case such as my own hypothetically, wouldn't a strong Christian couple be able to fall asleep in each other's company or no?

And furthermore...is the reason why there is a 50 50 split on the subject because it depends if a couple struggles with temptation? Or is there a 50 50 split because it's a gray area with no real answer?

just curious

Okay well... Let's start here: no, it's not acceptable. The New Testament uses the Greek 'pornea', which basically refers to every sort of sexual activity you or anyone could ever come up with. It's the word that is often translated 'fornication' in most texts.

As for why the poll is 50/50? Well, for the half that vote it's acceptable, those people would need to go back to God's word and do a word study, because they're wrong (or perhaps there were a few who simply weren't sure where they stood... And shouldn't have voted).

I'll tell you what, though. Here's one of Satan's one-liners: you're a strong Christian!

Berti
Aug 30th 2008, 12:56 AM
I'll tell you what, though. Here's one of Satan's one-liners: you're a strong Christian!

What do you mean by that?

Athanasius
Aug 30th 2008, 01:00 AM
What do you mean by that?

I mean that Satan puffs us up, we look at things as if we're above them and Satan kills us on them. I don't want to be rude - because I am in a slightly bad mood - but would a strong Christian (I'm assuming this is someone who knows their Bible) even ask the question?

Berti
Aug 30th 2008, 01:15 AM
Okay...so that is rude. Because 1) I was trying to reopen a discussion that seemed left in limbo and 2) it was just a hypothetical based on what others were saying.

My definition of a strong Christian isn't a bible memorizer. I know non-Christians who can quote the bible. A strong Christian is someone who walks with the Lord daily and consults them in every issue in their life.

I think strong Christians come together to talk about issues and vices to lift each others up and provoke thought. I don't think strong Christians condemn each other for questions they have.

And if you read my first post, I never said I was a strong Christian. I just commented on the man I'm dating. Maybe I am a strong Christian. Maybe I'm not.

The truth of the matter is that regardless of you having a bad mood, as a fellow Christian (regardless of the ambiguous adjective "strong") shouldn't you respect other Christians or other human beings for that matter? Especially those with questions?

Are you a moderator? Just curious...seeing as this was my very first post and day on this message board.

mcgyver
Aug 30th 2008, 01:21 AM
Hi Berti, and welcome to the boards!

Xel has a point...the enemy attacks us at the point we think we are strongest...because if we think that we're strong...then we no longer rely on God's strength and start relying on our own.

I can't begin to tell you how many people I've heard who fell into the one sin they NEVER thought they'd fall into!

There is an old saying:

"If you pull on a dog's tail enough, sooner or later you end up getting bitten".

The way to avoid falling into sin is to avoid the temptation in the first place!

Otherwise you can end up like the alcoholic who's sitting at the bar with a jigger of whiskey in front of him going "Lord, help me not to take this drink..." Go ahead an stick a fork in him...he's done :P

Think about it: He had to first of all stop at the bar...then he had to go in the door...then he had to sit on the stool...then he had to get the bartender's attention...then he had to order the drink. At each point he had the option of turning around and leaving. As he progressed through each point it got harder and harder to turn away, until.....:hmm:

James 1:13-15 says:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (NKJV Emphasis mine)

So, you got to ask yourself..."What stage am I at?"

Have you "Stopped at the bar, walked in the door, climbed up on the barstool, gotten the bartender's attention, ordered the drink?"

So let me ask you...sleeping together (fully clothed or not)...is it REALLY Wise??? ;)

(Note...not directed at anyone...just an answer to the question!)

Athanasius
Aug 30th 2008, 01:28 AM
My definition of a strong Christian isn't a bible memorizer. I know non-Christians who can quote the bible. A strong Christian is someone who walks with the Lord daily and consults them in every issue in their life.

I think strong Christians come together to talk about issues and vices to lift each others up and provoke thought. I don't think strong Christians condemn each other for questions they have.

There's no such thing as a "strong" Christian who isn't a "Bible memorizer". Strong Christians know their Bible, that is why they're strong. A strong Christian walks with the Lord daily and consults the Lord on every issue in their life... Because they're in God's word. Daily.

There's no such thing as, 'Well... I'm a strong Christian but I don't really read the Word'. I don't see how talking about vices lifts one another up - edifies the body of Christ, but they definitely don't do so outside of God's word.



And if you read my first post, I never said I was a strong Christian. I just commented on the man I'm dating. Maybe I am a strong Christian. Maybe I'm not.

Hypothetically speaking, we already know the answer ;)

...hypothetically, wouldn't a strong Christian couple...



The truth of the matter is that regardless of you having a bad mood, as a fellow Christian (regardless of the ambiguous adjective "strong") shouldn't you respect other Christians or other human beings for that matter? Especially those with questions?

I assure you, I haven't violated the sacredness of your humanity.



Are you a moderator? Just curious...seeing as this was my very first post and day on this message board.

Yes, I am. If you have a problem with any of my posts there's a white and red triangle on the top right of each post, you can use that to report the post to the rest of the staff if you wish.

Berti
Aug 30th 2008, 01:50 AM
Okay, I didn't say that a strong Christian doesn't know their bible. I think knowing the bible goes under walking with the Lord Daily. What I meant was that when you said you assumed I meant someone who knows their bible, I wanted you to understand that just "knowing the bible" was not my intended meaning.

I don't have a problem with your posts so I'm not going to report them. I just wish you wouldn't take your bad mood out on me because I never tried to be rude to you and I've tried to be respectful in each post to you. When I asked "What did you mean by that" I seriously was just asking what you meant. If you interpreted that as a defensive tone, it wasn't. I just wanted you to elaborate on your statement. I don't know why you feel like you can judge me with statements like "I think we know the answer to that."

I seriously thought my first post here would be a nice discussion starter since it seemed like quite a few people on this board were confused. THanks mcgyver Btw for your awesome bible backing and metaphor. I'm sure everyone with this as a gray area and even those who don't appreciate your insight.

And for the record, not that it matters. I have never, nor will I sleep over with my boyfriend. I was just using my situation as an example since I heard many others claim to be in the same type of relationship as me and were curious.

Xel'Naga, I hope your day gets better for you. I honestly do.

Athanasius
Aug 30th 2008, 01:53 AM
O
Xel'Naga, I hope your day gets better for you. I honestly do.

Here's what I'm going to do. I apologize for the tone I've taken with you, sincerely. So forgive me for that. If I come back to this thread I'll come back tomorrow, I shouldn't be posting as I am right now. If there's anything you'd want me to edit out of my previous posts (or delete altogether), ask and I will.

Sorry.

ilovemetal
Aug 30th 2008, 01:55 AM
cuddeling. well, here's my thoughts.

first off, i'm mostly with the the others who advocate 'don't even get into the stop where you can BE tempeted.'

with that said however, i for one, love cuddeling. i mean, it's epic. so where can one draw the line of 1)watching a movie under a blanket snuggling hard, holding hands watching porbly enchanted, cuz that movie ruled. or 2) the same thing but in bed sleeping.

to me there's no difference. i wasn't aware people here were against the snuggling part. eeek! (i have, though, thanks to this forum changed my stance on alot of sexual issues, for the better)

anyways, so my main point is, i don't think snuggling is to bad....if it hasn't gone farther. cuz once that has happened it's hard not to go back. heck, i snuggle lots of friends when we watch movies.

bed though, hmmm. first of all, if you want to snuggle THAT bad, that you think mere clothes will protect you from temptaion, that's weird. i mean, i don't ever sleep in clothes. I'm pretty sure God won't be like, 'oh no, their sleeping together, oh, wait, no they have clothes on. nevermind.'

so that's irrelivant. sleeping together in general is a great oppertunity for the devil to throw out a couple thoughts. do don't even do it. or do it.

so. sorry that post was super random...

Berti
Aug 30th 2008, 01:55 AM
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Friend of Jesus
Aug 30th 2008, 05:54 PM
Hey there Berti, good to have you with us.


It's better not to sleep (even with clothes on) next to your boyfriend/girlfriend, even if you are the strongest Christian since Jesus himself. David had faith in God as strong as it comes, but even he fell for Satan's tricks. He didn't plan to. He didn't plan to walk with God for a while and then torpedo the whole thing with an affair; just as we don't plan to fall for temptation, but it's somewhat different when the temptation is actually there.

It may be that you resist the devil, but I think we can safely agree that it is better if the temptation never arises.

Ilovemetal, in question to snuggling, I would say that there is nothing wrong with it in itself, snuggling not being a sexual activity- Heck, I know fathers and mothers who 'snuggle' with their children, and brothers and sisters who do likewise. I would say though that it is best not to snuggle with someone with whom temptation may arise, although that is my opinion.

God Bless

ilovemetal
Aug 30th 2008, 08:21 PM
Ilovemetal, in question to snuggling, I would say that there is nothing wrong with it in itself, snuggling not being a sexual activity- Heck, I know fathers and mothers who 'snuggle' with their children, and brothers and sisters who do likewise. I would say though that it is best not to snuggle with someone with whom temptation may arise, although that is my opinion.

God Bless

fully agree. :D

Revinius
Aug 31st 2008, 01:24 PM
Hypothetically: If i (and prolly most people) somehow noticed two people walk into a house holding hands late at night then leave the next day with a cuddle and a kiss goodbye i would assume they were having sex or something. You said you understood the idea of being above reproach.... so what's the big deal? Xel already highlighted that, when it comes to people deliberately putting themselves up against avoidable sin, there are no 'strong Christians'. 'Strong Christians' know it's far wiser to flee sin when able.

Snuggle all you like in public....

Buzzword
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:34 PM
So I know there was a discussion on this earlier (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=9937), and the poll was almost a perfect 50 50 split.

But here's my question, is sleeping together fully clothed and just cuddling acceptable? I understand the whole being above reproach thing and avoiding temptation. I am a college sophomore dating a strong Christian man whom I love whole heartedly. We are both completely committed to save ourselves til marriage. We even joke about it at times. If we get tempted, we talk openly about it and I think we have a good handle on things. In a case such as my own hypothetically, wouldn't a strong Christian couple be able to fall asleep in each other's company or no?

And furthermore...is the reason why there is a 50 50 split on the subject because it depends if a couple struggles with temptation? Or is there a 50 50 split because it's a gray area with no real answer?

just curious

It's perfectly fine...and also reeeeally romantic, especially getting to see your love's face first thing in the morning. (personal experience)

Yes be careful of subconsciously sliding clothing, but the focus here should be on the romance of sharing your sleeping hours with the one you love, not walking on pins and needles worrying about what parts of your fully-clothed bodies are touching.

You're both adults, so decide for yourselves.

EDIT: It's far from 50/50 now, my dear. :D

Revinius
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:59 PM
It's perfectly fine...and also reeeeally romantic, especially getting to see your love's face first thing in the morning. (personal experience)

Yes be careful of subconsciously sliding clothing, but the focus here should be on the romance of sharing your sleeping hours with the one you love, not walking on pins and needles worrying about what parts of your fully-clothed bodies are touching.

You're both adults, so decide for yourselves.

EDIT: It's far from 50/50 now, my dear. :D

sigh.................

Athanasius
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:55 PM
It's perfectly fine...and also reeeeally romantic, especially getting to see your love's face first thing in the morning. (personal experience)

Yes be careful of subconsciously sliding clothing, but the focus here should be on the romance of sharing your sleeping hours with the one you love, not walking on pins and needles worrying about what parts of your fully-clothed bodies are touching.

You're both adults, so decide for yourselves.

EDIT: It's far from 50/50 now, my dear. :D

No, it's not perfectly fine.

Ephesians 5:3
But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints

It's sin.

Buzzword
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:39 PM
No, it's not perfectly fine.

Ephesians 5:3
But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints

It's sin.

Where is your proof that sleeping fully clothed next to someone you deeply love is "immorality," "impurity," or "greed"?

mcgyver
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:01 PM
I'd ask three questions:

Would doing so possibly cause a younger brother or sister to stumble?

Would doing so give the unsaved the opportunity to slander the cause of Christ?

If the answer to either one is "yes"....then why do it?

Buzzword
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:05 PM
I'd ask three questions:

Would doing so possibly cause a younger brother or sister to stumble?

Would doing so give the unsaved the opportunity to slander the cause of Christ?

If the answer to either one is "yes"....then why do it?

I was operating under the assumption that it (like most sleep) was being done in private.

Unless the couple is sleeping on a park bench (which raises MANY more questions), do those three questions even APPLY?

Also, are we only including sleeping next to each other AT NIGHT in this discussion?
Do you who believe it to be sin include taking a nap on the couch together in your assertions?

Revinius
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:10 PM
is there anywhere that is guaranteed to be private... even the loneliest farm would have visitors or the dustiest trail have wanderers...

mcgyver
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:23 PM
Well, let me give you a true-to-life illustration of what I mean....

A lady in the church has to drive 50 miles one way to come to church...She has a friend (also a member of the church who is male) that she has known for almost 20 years who lives in the area...He is single (as is she).

She drives down for VBS after work Friday, and as she is too exhausted to drive back home (and wants to be here the next day for a church work day), she goes over to her friend's house and uses his spare bedroom.

Her truck is parked outside his house all night...

Now I have no doubt that all is innocent...I know them both...I have no doubt that "nothing happened".

The following Tuesday we go out on visitation in the area...and a person to whom we have been witnessing starts out with "you people are the biggest bunch of hypocrites I've ever seen, etc., etc., etc." and proceeds to tell us how that he and his wife saw this person's truck parked all night outside her friends house...

Word gets back to these two...and they are devastated because their witness has been damaged...

So now we've got two problems stemming from something that was totally innocent (although bad in judgment).

An unbeliever who is slandering Christians with great glee and two people who's hearts are broken because they gave cause for the slander...

Does this answer your question?

Athanasius
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:50 PM
Where is your proof that sleeping fully clothed next to someone you deeply love is "immorality," "impurity," or "greed"?

Two things:

(1) The Greek pornea
(2) Macgyvers story

Friend of Jesus
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:11 PM
It's perfectly fine...and also reeeeally romantic, especially getting to see your love's face first thing in the morning. (personal experience)

Is that a good example of fleeing from temptation- Or is it in fact challenging the devil to a game of willpower.




You're both adults, so decide for yourselves.

Personally I'm done deciding for myself in these matters. I'm just heading the way God's heading.

Buzzword
Sep 2nd 2008, 10:16 PM
Well, let me give you a true-to-life illustration of what I mean....

A lady in the church has to drive 50 miles one way to come to church...She has a friend (also a member of the church who is male) that she has known for almost 20 years who lives in the area...He is single (as is she).

She drives down for VBS after work Friday, and as she is too exhausted to drive back home (and wants to be here the next day for a church work day), she goes over to her friend's house and uses his spare bedroom.

Her truck is parked outside his house all night...

Now I have no doubt that all is innocent...I know them both...I have no doubt that "nothing happened".

The following Tuesday we go out on visitation in the area...and a person to whom we have been witnessing starts out with "you people are the biggest bunch of hypocrites I've ever seen, etc., etc., etc." and proceeds to tell us how that he and his wife saw this person's truck parked all night outside her friends house...

Word gets back to these two...and they are devastated because their witness has been damaged...

So now we've got two problems stemming from something that was totally innocent (although bad in judgment).

An unbeliever who is slandering Christians with great glee and two people who's hearts are broken because they gave cause for the slander...

Does this answer your question?

1) Why would it break their hearts if they are innocent?
2) How then do you reconcile the belief that we can't do anything that might give someone an EXCUSE to slander, with the oft-touted evangelical belief that we as Christians shouldn't care what people think of us?

In Christ we have the freedom to not walk on pins and needles regarding what might offend others.


Two things:

(1) The Greek pornea
(2) Macgyvers story

1) You said yourself that pornea denotes sexual activity.
We aren't talking about sexual activity.

2) see above



Is that a good example of fleeing from temptation- Or is it in fact challenging the devil to a game of willpower.


That depends on the couple, and where their focus is.
If their focus is on, say, SLEEPING, it does not seem to be a temptation issue.

I've slept next to my girlfriend many times, especially when we've talked late into the night.
No problems so far.




Personally I'm done deciding for myself in these matters. I'm just heading the way God's heading.

Contradiction. You DECIDE to do what you have DECIDED you believe God is telling you to do.

Athanasius
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:40 AM
1) You said yourself that pornea denotes sexual activity.
We aren't talking about sexual activity.

2) see above


Yes, we are. If I take naps with or fall asleep with my girlfriend people are going to talk. They're going to name among us some sort of sexual immorality, it's how people think. That's the danger, that's part of the reason it's a sin.

Friend of Jesus
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:59 AM
Contradiction. You DECIDE to do what you have DECIDED you believe God is telling you to do.

You know what I mean- Quite often I have made decisions based upon either my feelings, or my judgement of the situation. Instead, now I try (I'm not perfect) to pull back from the situation, pray and ask God. Technically I am deciding to ask God, but let's not get into word play here.

Also I should point out, although you have not had any temptation problems, other people might so it is best not to pat them on the back before they start walking on the very edge of the narrow path.

Buzzword
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:35 PM
Yes, we are. If I take naps with or fall asleep with my girlfriend people are going to talk. They're going to name among us some sort of sexual immorality, it's how people think. That's the danger, that's part of the reason it's a sin.

So public opinion now decides what sin is?

Last time I checked, God is the offended party when we sin, so does it not fall to HIM to inform us beforehand and convict us afterwards?


Also I should point out, although you have not had any temptation problems, other people might so it is best not to pat them on the back before they start walking on the very edge of the narrow path.

See above.
Since when do Christians (who are supposedly counter-culture) base our actions around what people MIGHT think of us?

Revinius
Sep 3rd 2008, 01:21 PM
i would be devastated if an irresponsible choice of mine (not putting myself above reproach) became a massive assumptive barrier for someone in coming to Christ. Is my desire worth that? Absolutely not.


How then do you reconcile the belief that we can't do anything that might give someone an EXCUSE to slander, with the oft-touted evangelical belief that we as Christians shouldn't care what people think of us?

I think we should care greatly if people arent coming to Christ because they are under the impression we are hypocrites... On the other hand, i care little if they get they want to taunt me for my relationship with Jesus and the resulting Christian lifestyle.