PDA

View Full Version : Please Help The book of Revelation



poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 02:22 PM
As I was reading Jeremiah the Lord gave me a new question for Reformed from the book of Revelation. Anyone may answer it. No I wont use your replies for anything but an interesting dialog here.

--
In Rev 14:7 John speaks of an angel that proclaims to all nations of the earth to fear God and to give him glory. Also in Rev 9:20-21, 16:9,11 John speaks as if those on the earth during this period possess a free will and they use that free will against God by not repenting. If the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Biblical and Christ only died for the elect and non elect has no hope, then why would God allow so many opportunities for people to repent and turn to him? Surely not everyone living on the earth during the tribulation are of the elect?

TrustingFollower
Aug 31st 2008, 02:44 PM
As I was reading Jeremiah the Lord gave me a new question for Reformed from the book of Revelation. Anyone may answer it. No I wont use your replies for anything but an interesting dialog here.

--
In Rev 14:7 John speaks of an angel that proclaims to all nations of the earth to fear God and to give him glory. Also in Rev 9:20-21, 16:9,11 John speaks as if those on the earth during this period possess a free will and they use that free will against God by not repenting. If the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Biblical and Christ only died for the elect and non elect has no hope, then why would God allow so many opportunities for people to repent and turn to him? Surely not everyone living on the earth during the tribulation are of the elect?

This is a good question. I do not buy into the Limited Atonement theory myself. I believe that God wants all of us to be reconciled to him, but he also has set it up that we need to show the sign that we choose him. God does not force anyone to love him and that is the cool part of how he has it all planed out. I am like you and don't understand the thinking of Limited Atonement when all through out the bible God is calling out to the people of this earth to repent. Why would someone who is going to just end up in hell want to repent, i.e. the so called non-elect. If it were me then I think I would be looking to go out and have as much fun as I could before I was sent to hell. I know that this is not the case because God said whomsoever believes in the son shall have eternal life. The whomsoever can only mean that everyone has the gift if they choose to believe.

I think the tribulation is to open the eyes of the people of this world. It is one final sign and miracle to get the people to repent and turn to God. Those that do repent and turn their lives over to Jesus in that time will have the same gift you and I have, eternal life with our God and savior.

compisspeakingimag
Aug 31st 2008, 04:13 PM
what is 'tribulation'? didn't read that in bible. salvation came upon all men, and is without repentance. what you are talking about is the mysteries of either believing or not believing, or the mystery of faith, or non-faith.
Perhaps different lots for different groups?

poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 04:28 PM
You teach Universalism.

I debated a Universalist once.


what is 'tribulation'? didn't read that in bible. salvation came upon all men, and is without repentance. what you are talking about is the mysteries of either believing or not believing, or the mystery of faith, or non-faith.
Perhaps different lots for different groups?

TrustingFollower
Aug 31st 2008, 04:28 PM
what is 'tribulation'? didn't read that in bible. salvation came upon all men, and is without repentance. what you are talking about is the mysteries of either believing or not believing, or the mystery of faith, or non-faith.
Perhaps different lots for different groups?
I am not sure what bible you are reading, but the one I read speaks plainly about the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 2

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Another thing, where are you getting the no need to repent thing. Every where in the bible God has called for us to repent. It did not change with the new covenant.

threebigrocks
Aug 31st 2008, 04:29 PM
what is 'tribulation'? didn't read that in bible. salvation came upon all men, and is without repentance. what you are talking about is the mysteries of either believing or not believing, or the mystery of faith, or non-faith.
Perhaps different lots for different groups?

Try Matthew 24 and Revelations 2 and 7. ;)

TrustingFollower
Aug 31st 2008, 04:55 PM
what is 'tribulation'? didn't read that in bible. salvation came upon all men, and is without repentance. what you are talking about is the mysteries of either believing or not believing, or the mystery of faith, or non-faith.
Perhaps different lots for different groups?
One more thing I need to point out to you. This board does not allow the UR doctrine to be taught here.

Bethany67
Aug 31st 2008, 05:52 PM
I'm just wondering if there's a language barrier here; maybe English isn't Comp's first language?

'Without repentance' is taken from the KJV - Rom 11:29 -

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

One of the reasons I won't use the KJV; this verse is better translated as 'irrevocable' or not to be called back or taken away. Because the English language has changed so much over the centuries, someone caught unawares could come up with some pretty weird ideas.

threebigrocks
Aug 31st 2008, 05:59 PM
Romans 11

25 ¶For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "AND THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.


This is not a message that deals with salvation, but how God uses the ungodly and hardhearted to let His mercy be seen fully. Here Israel is mentioned specifically in God's plan of redemption. Salvation comes and then we see the incredible mercy He has on us, sinners. Context is all important and without it we wind up with some pretty goofy stuff.

poochie
Aug 31st 2008, 06:23 PM
Both the ESV and the NIV translate the greek word used here to irrevocable.

Only the KJV translates this to without repentence. Even the NKJV uses irrevocable.


I'm just wondering if there's a language barrier here; maybe English isn't Comp's first language?

'Without repentance' is taken from the KJV - Rom 11:29 -

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

One of the reasons I won't use the KJV; this verse is better translated as 'irrevocable' or not to be called back or taken away. Because the English language has changed so much over the centuries, someone caught unawares could come up with some pretty weird ideas.

OldChurchGuy
Sep 1st 2008, 01:22 PM
As I was reading Jeremiah the Lord gave me a new question for Reformed from the book of Revelation. Anyone may answer it. No I wont use your replies for anything but an interesting dialog here.

--
In Rev 14:7 John speaks of an angel that proclaims to all nations of the earth to fear God and to give him glory. Also in Rev 9:20-21, 16:9,11 John speaks as if those on the earth during this period possess a free will and they use that free will against God by not repenting. If the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Biblical and Christ only died for the elect and non elect has no hope, then why would God allow so many opportunities for people to repent and turn to him? Surely not everyone living on the earth during the tribulation are of the elect?

Once again I admit my ignorance. The crux of the question seems to hinge on whether or not the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Biblical.

What is the definition of a "doctrine" as it applies to a persons beliefs about the Bible?
What is the definition of "Limited Atonement" and what verses in the Bible support it as a doctrine? Are there any verses in the Bible which run counter to supporting Limited Atonement as a doctrine?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

jamesand57
Sep 1st 2008, 01:48 PM
Once again I admit my ignorance. The crux of the question seems to hinge on whether or not the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Biblical.

What is the definition of a "doctrine" as it applies to a persons beliefs about the Bible?
What is the definition of "Limited Atonement" and what verses in the Bible support it as a doctrine? Are there any verses in the Bible which run counter to supporting Limited Atonement as a doctrine?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy


Limited how? True Christianity has always taught and believed that Salvation is through Jesus Christ, By Faith in Him.


It has never taught that all mankind is automatically saved, That would negate the need for faith in any way.


Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.