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Joe King
Sep 1st 2008, 02:27 AM
I was thinking about this after watching a documentary of suicides off of the Golden gate bridge.

We know that it is the devil and his demons trying to destroy us. I am interested to hear your thoughts and obviously I don't have scripture regarding this.

Sketch
Sep 1st 2008, 03:55 AM
Just like a persons faith in God, many people have a faith in science. When the answers are not there, you begin to formulate ways that the non-answered question can become both answered and answered to fit your particular belief.


For instance, in the case of Suicides and Evolution, one having faith in science could easily presume that the role of suicides in the human species is, in effect, a self-cleansing behavior built in to ensure that the most stable, strong, and genetically fit humans continue to live and thrive healthily. Those without these qualities, may be called necessary defects, and in slowly isolating themselves, they soon wither and choose their own death.


I'm not prepared to argue for evolution. The paragraph before this one is merely a hypothetical example to prove that whether or not you or I believe suicide disproves evolution, the statement could be easily refuted. I would say that, in fact, it does not disprove evolution, even on the smallest scale.

SirTanTee
Sep 1st 2008, 04:47 AM
No, I don't think so. Because the act of suicide is not a genetically pre-determined fate. Although there can be genetic influence (for example, some people are more predisposed to depression) I believe that social and situational factors are greatest in driving people to kill themselves. Therefore, who does and doesn't commit suicide has a large element of chance in it. If my mother happens to be killed by a runaway bus I'd be more likely to commit suicide out of grief, but that's just random - it doesn't have to do with my own genetic viability and therefore doesn't haven't anything to do with natural selection.

Plus, negative genetic defects are notoriously hard to get rid of, unfortunately. :B Even fatal genetic flaws that do not allow an individual to reproduce continue to appear in populations because they hide in recessive genes. So even if suicide were purely or greatly genetic, it would be hard for it to "wither away."

Athanasius
Sep 1st 2008, 05:13 AM
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I'd rather think the lack of suicide, rather than suicide, is more of an issue.

BrckBrln
Sep 1st 2008, 05:19 AM
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I'd rather think the lack of suicide, rather than suicide, is more of an issue.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

SirTanTee
Sep 1st 2008, 05:22 AM
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I'd rather think the lack of suicide, rather than suicide, is more of an issue.

Can you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Maybe I've been awake too long; my brain functioning capacity seems to be at zero. =P

Athanasius
Sep 1st 2008, 05:26 AM
Can you elaborate? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Maybe I've been awake too long; my brain functioning capacity seems to be at zero. =P

Let's face it: the most delusional people on the planet are atheists. There is no meaning to life for them. Every answer they could possibly think up for the question has absolutely nothing to do with how reality actually is, it's an artificial construct - it makes them 'feel better'.

The fact that people are sticking around, I'd say that shows something. Nature red in tooth and claw... Except for humanity, right? We're just different.

Kaninchen
Sep 1st 2008, 06:10 AM
Suicide is irrelevant to evolution. More or less suicides won't prove or disprove evolution simply because they are unrelated subjects. People don't kill themselves because they are less evolved than non-suicidal peers, nor because they are more evolved. One has nothing to do with the other.


Let's face it: the most delusional people on the planet are atheists. There is no meaning to life for them. Every answer they could possibly think up for the question has absolutely nothing to do with how reality actually is, it's an artificial construct - it makes them 'feel better'.

Hmm, I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I was an atheist nearly all of my life until relatively recently, and I must say, I always felt my life had meaning. Although I did not believe I was on earth to serve any ultimate purpose, I felt my reason for living was to create happiness for those I loved, to better the world for the future and to experience as much of life as I could. There was a great deal that I found important and enjoyable about the world. It wasn't bleak to me, and does not seem to be bleak to friends of mine who are still atheists. Atheism also wasn't a balm to make me feel better, it was something I thought made the most sense and had the most evidence in support of it.


The fact that people are sticking around, I'd say that shows something. Nature red in tooth and claw... Except for humanity, right? We're just different.

I'm not seeing proof for your opinion here. Nature is red in tooth and claw, yes, but the violence that affects the natural world is nothing compared to what humans do on a regular basis. If anything, we are far more 'red'. Animals hunt for food and might fight for dominance within a group, or for resources, but they don't commit wars like we do, and have fewer rogue killings (what we would call murders) than we do. Furthermore, the animal kingdom doesn't have suicide as far as I'm aware, leastwise not to the degree we do. We are different, yes, but not in any way that proves anything positive about humanity given the examples here.

Joe King
Sep 1st 2008, 07:00 AM
Well I figured that the evolutionist would say that they are trying to keep the gene pool strong, but when I started this thread I was thinking more on the lines of willfully hurting yourself. How could any "species" do that? Our "ancestors" the apes don't do that.

I do like the view of the lack of suicide being an issue because, yes, you would think using that theory that there would be more.

Why aren't animals committing suicide also then? (using their logic of course)

IPet2_9
Sep 1st 2008, 07:27 AM
I don't think suicide disproves evolution at all. Actually, if I am coming from the standpoint of evolution, I would say it supports it. It's natural selection; survival of the fittest. The fittest have it all--they lead the herd, they get all the girls.

I don't believe in evolution, but if I see it through their eyes, no it doesn't.

IPet2_9
Sep 1st 2008, 07:28 AM
Why aren't animals committing suicide also then?

Lemmings do...............

divaD
Sep 1st 2008, 01:24 PM
Hmm, I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I was an atheist nearly all of my life until relatively recently, and I must say, I always
felt my life had meaning. Although I did not believe I was on earth to serve any ultimate purpose, I felt my reason for living
was to create happiness for those I loved, to better the world for the future and to experience as much of life as I could.
There was a great deal that I found important and enjoyable about the world. It wasn't bleak to me, and does not seem to be
bleak to friends of mine who are still atheists. Atheism also wasn't a balm to make me feel better, it was something I thought
made the most sense and had the most evidence in support of it.


Just out of curiosity, what was it that caused you to change your mind, and start believing in God?

This may sound a bit strange, but many times when I encounter athiests on other boards, some of them seem to understand the Bible better than some Christians, yet they don't believe the Bible, nor do they believe in the God of the Bible, nor any god for that matter.

I have somewhat of a theory why some athiests don't believe in God. It's because they can't see the God that is in us proclaimed Christians as a whole. I mean, we're supposed to be united as one, but the truth is, we're basically divided because of denoms, etc. And this is what the athiest sees, the division, not the unity. The athiest sees all the bickering, the debating, my interpretation is right, yours is wrong, the whole nine yards, etc. What they're failing to see is the love that we are to have for one another. And many of the athiests that I've encountered
are decent, respectful citizens, yet they don't believe in God. And of course the athiest raises many Biblical questions, that most Christians, if any, can give satisfactory answers to. Such as, why was there so much blood shed in the OT?


And just so that I don't get completely off topic here, I fail to understand what suicide has to do with evolution in any manner. What about accidents where people are fatally wounded, or wars? Should this also disprove evolution, since these wouldn't be natural deaths?

Athanasius
Sep 1st 2008, 02:32 PM
Hmm, I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I was an atheist nearly all of my life until relatively recently, and I must say, I always felt my life had meaning. Although I did not believe I was on earth to serve any ultimate purpose, I felt my reason for living was to create happiness for those I loved, to better the world for the future and to experience as much of life as I could. There was a great deal that I found important and enjoyable about the world. It wasn't bleak to me, and does not seem to be bleak to friends of mine who are still atheists. Atheism also wasn't a balm to make me feel better, it was something I thought made the most sense and had the most evidence in support of it.


That's exactly my point.

Kaninchen
Sep 1st 2008, 10:04 PM
Just out of curiosity, what was it that caused you to change your mind, and start believing in God?

To be honest, I'm not totally sure. There was never a sudden moment of awakening. Slowly, I started realising that even though I felt the existence of God was illogical and the whole idea of religion woefully silly, I was still praying when I felt scared or sad. Bargaining prayers, like a child might make, like "oh God get me out of this scary plane ride and I'll go to church Sunday" -- I never upheld the bargains either, but it occurred to me that the prayers did give me comfort and that things always turned out all right when I asked for help. And then, I've always had an interest in Christianity. Usually I liked arguing against it, but I realised something kept drawing me to asking questions, reading, visiting churches and praying. So, I decided to accept that, slowly. I am still in the process of that, but I no longer lie to myself and tell myself I don't believe.


This may sound a bit strange, but many times when I encounter athiests on other boards, some of them seem to understand the Bible better than some Christians, yet they don't believe the Bible, nor do they believe in the God of the Bible, nor any god for that matter.

Well, when I was an atheist, I felt I needed to read the Bible in order to know my enemy. It was no good ignoring what Christians said to me; I wanted to be able to win the arguments. Also, I think many atheists are drawn to the Bible, but instead of reading and trying to accept what the Bible contains, they want to be able to destroy and mock the Bible in order to assure themselves that they are right. After all, there is a lot at stake if they are wrong. Being able to bash the Bible by pointing out verses that contain violence, or being able to mock passages that seem to conflict or appear poorly written is a way of assuring themselves that they have nothing to fear and that Christians are just a bunch of dupes. An atheist will usually want to be able to dismantle the Christian argument. Otherwise, they have to go to bed that night feeling a fear they may not even acknowledge themselves, of "what if I'm wrong?". It's not a fun place to be, so it's easier to read the Bible and learn all the Christian arguments, and then make jokes at their expense. Christians, and God, become much less threatening that way.


I have somewhat of a theory why some athiests don't believe in God. It's because they can't see the God that is in us proclaimed Christians as a whole. I mean, we're supposed to be united as one, but the truth is, we're basically divided because of denoms, etc. And this is what the athiest sees, the division, not the unity. The athiest sees all the bickering, the debating, my interpretation is right, yours is wrong, the whole nine yards, etc. What they're failing to see is the love that we are to have for one another.

From my own experience, atheists find the division between Christians amusing, and it does weaken any arguments Christians have too. But honestly, I don't think that's the reason for disbelief. I hesitate to even believe in disbelief often. I mean, if an atheist genuinely does not think, even for a moment, God might be real, why is he or she on a Christian message board arguing with Christians or talking theology? How much time does anyone spare to argue whether or not fairies exist? Precious little, for most people, except those who feel fairy existance has some small chance of being true. I think most atheists dislike the Christians they've known, or don't care a whit what God wants, and don't want to have to worry about consequences. Don't tell an atheist you know he/she really believes in God deep down, because they will work all the harder to bury the truth from themselves...but honestly, I think nearly all do.


That's exactly my point.

Can you answer my comments about suicide? I'd like to understand your perspective better.

1of7000
Sep 1st 2008, 10:31 PM
I have always thought that claim of the homosexuals that they were born that way did more to disprove evolution. cause if it was a gene and those of the same sex persuasion did not reproduce would not the trait have died out long ago? so either the claim is false or evolution does not exist which?

SirTanTee
Sep 1st 2008, 10:48 PM
I have always thought that claim of the homosexuals that they were born that way did more to disprove evolution. cause if it was a gene and those of the same sex persuasion did not reproduce would not the trait have died out long ago? so either the claim is false or evolution does not exist which?

Even if it was genetic (which at the moment it does not seem to be), for centuries homosexuals have had children in order to try to conform with society's expectations and marriage and children, so the gene could have survived quite abundantly that way.

However, keep in mind that genetic disorders do not just die out. One classic example is Tay-Sachs disease. It is a genetically fatal disease which has no cure; victims of it all basically die close to the age of 5, so they have no chance to reproduce. So it should die out very quickly, right? Turns out it doesn't. One in every 27 Jewish people in the United States is a Tay Sachs carrier. The same comparison can be made to diseases like Down Syndrome, Huntingtons, Cystic Fibrosis, but the mechanics of genetics explains how these diseases survive and get passed down.

Kaninchen
Sep 1st 2008, 10:57 PM
I have always thought that claim of the homosexuals that they were born that way did more to disprove evolution. cause if it was a gene and those of the same sex persuasion did not reproduce would not the trait have died out long ago? so either the claim is false or evolution does not exist which?

Has the idea of a "gay gene" been proven? I'm not aware of that. Even if it had been, there is more than one way to look at the argument.

From an evolutionary standpoint, homosexuality may be a useful trait. Perhaps nature keeps a number of humans with the "gay gene" around in order to control the population. In times of famine, stress or overcrowding, the gay gene might kick in to slow or stop reproduction among groups until the population is sustainable again. Furthermore, it could be that most or all humans carry the gay gene, but that it only becomes dominant or awoken in a small population. Perhaps that population is determined at random, or maybe the gay gene is more prevalent as the population grows and less so when the population thins.

Those are just sample arguments from a different perspective. I don't honestly believe that homosexuality proves or disproves evolution any more than I think suicide among humans proves or disproves it. I happen to be a firm believer in micro evolution (evolution within the species) because it's plain we grow and adapt in both physical and non-physical ways. For humans to come from having lived agricultural lives a few hundred years ago, gone through the industrial revolution and currently be living in a post-industrial, tech-centred society is proof of micro evolution. So, probably, are the fingernails we can't use as defense like claws but also continue to have. As for macro evolution, I'm undecided, but I consider most of the arguments I've heard in favour of it to be quite strong. But anyway, being gay or jumping off the Golden Gate bridge doesn't change the fact or falsehood of evolution.

1of7000
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:02 AM
But anyway, being gay or jumping off the Golden Gate bridge doesn't change the fact or falsehood of evolution.


Not having to actually face the situation if i were one i would do the other. is it not coincidental that the golden gate bridge is so close to the castro/polk district?

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:51 PM
Hmm, I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I was an atheist nearly all of my life until relatively recently, and I must say, I always felt my life had meaning. Although I did not believe I was on earth to serve any ultimate purpose, I felt my reason for living was to create happiness for those I loved, to better the world for the future and to experience as much of life as I could. There was a great deal that I found important and enjoyable about the world. It wasn't bleak to me, and does not seem to be bleak to friends of mine who are still atheists.But how can life have "meaning" to it for someone who doesn't believe there are things beyond the seen? The atheist would believe we're all here by chance, nothing more... there is no meaning found in pure chance. Their life is being lived for nothing. It will end and everything will gone on by them and they will be forgotten in a hundred years. Even bringing other people happiness would be meaningless because those people will die and disappear from history as well. Since the atheist believes in nothing other than the purely tangible world, and that it is rooted in nothing and ends in nothing, then life would be worth nothing.

As Xel said, it would be an artificial idea made up by the atheist to comfort themselves, not an actual truth.

But since we know we were created, we then know there was a meaning behind our creation. That's what gives our lives meaning. With no intent there is no meaning.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:38 PM
Keep in mind that no matter what argument you bring up, naturalistic evolution will never be disproven. They will always say, "oh, that's explained by evolution" even if the explanation contradicts another explanation.

With suicide, they'll explain it used to do with honor suicides. If your honor was violated, you killed yourself. This was because the person recognized it was best to off oneself in order to better the community. Of course, for those that didn't, they evolved the trait of individuality.

Everything within naturalistic evolution will always have a shoddy excuse...er...explanation.

SirTanTee
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:56 PM
Keep in mind that no matter what argument you bring up, naturalistic evolution will never be disproven. They will always say, "oh, that's explained by evolution" even if the explanation contradicts another explanation.

With suicide, they'll explain it used to do with honor suicides. If your honor was violated, you killed yourself. This was because the person recognized it was best to off oneself in order to better the community. Of course, for those that didn't, they evolved the trait of individuality.

Everything within naturalistic evolution will always have a shoddy excuse...er...explanation.

Or they'll just say that suicide really has almost nothing to do with evolution. ;)

cdo
Sep 5th 2008, 02:47 AM
Speaking only on the devastation of "Suicide" It really has nothing to do with your Christianity or how you believe. It does have to do with satanic spirits. I am not including evolution in with my comment on suicide. I am a Christian,have been for many years now.I've been in that situation and believe me....It never entered my mind about death and hell....only that I could no longer live and didn't wont to live.However my Lord was with me the whole way and by His love and His promise to me (all) . He kept me safe !!!:pp

apothanein kerdos
Sep 5th 2008, 06:12 AM
Or they'll just say that suicide really has almost nothing to do with evolution. ;)

Maybe an amateur in evolution, but a biologist that is concerned about the philosophy of naturalism would be hard pressed to find a reason for suicide.

Naturalistic evolution requires that the entire human condition - from why you smile to how you make decisions - has to all be explained by nature. Otherwise naturalism fails as a test and we must abandon it. Therefore, suicide has to have a natural explanation.

Though I agree evolution has little to nothing to do with suicide the fact remains that for a naturalist they must use an evolutionary explanation for suicide lest they betray their own worldview.