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INOLVIDABLE
Sep 1st 2008, 06:59 AM
Hi, Is Smoking A Sin?
(ciggarettes, Or Cigars)
Peace

poochie
Sep 1st 2008, 10:43 AM
Yes smoking is a sin as it is violating the temple that the Holy Spirit resides in.

graceforme
Sep 1st 2008, 11:35 AM
And I think smoking is a very bad witness to others. The world watches us very closely, and whenever we do things that are like the world, it shows them that we aren't really very different after all. Scripture says we are to be a "peculiar people" meaning that we shouldn't do what the world does.

And, looking at it from a very logical point of view - with all the information that is out there now regarding how much damage smoking does to the person and those around them, I can't understand how anyone with a brain in their head would want to start smoking.

God Bless.

divaD
Sep 1st 2008, 12:41 PM
So the next question might be....are those that smoke..are they going to hell since this is apparently a sin? And if not, why not? Sin is sin, right? I am in no way claiming that whomever smokes is going to hell, but smoking, if it is a sin, is habitual, just like lying might be habitual, etc. And we know that no liars shall inherit the kingdom of heaven, so, will habitual smokers inherit the kingdom of heaven or not?

BTW, I don't smoke, but I used to smoke a pack a day. The last time I recall smoking, cigarettes were 65 cents a pack, lol. You guessed it, lol...I think I quit smoking in the late 70's or around there.:)

9Marksfan
Sep 1st 2008, 01:20 PM
This is a very important point - two of the greatest preachers of the last 150 years, CH Spurgeon and DR Martyn Lloyd-Jones both smoked - Spurgeon loved cigars and Lloyd-Jones cigarettes. In Iain H Murra's boigraphy of Lloyd-Jones' early years, he was looking for a packet of cigarettes in his home and couldn't find one - he became very agitated and then the thought came to him "you are not free" - as we would say , he realised he was "hooked" - repented and gradually cut down to nothing.

I understand that cigars are not as harmful to your health (if at all?) - Spurgeon's view was that it was a debatable issue - if it were sin to YOU and you smoked, it was sin - if it WASN'T sin to you (and it wasn't to him), then it wasn't sin. As far as I know, he never gave up and saw it as one of the "good things" God had given for him "richly to enjoy" - we could perhaps compare it to alcohol in our own day.

If a believer is hooked on cigarettes, however, and struggles with it till the day they die (as we all do with certain besetting sins), then I don't think we can say that they're going to Hell - we are saved by grace, after all, not sinless perfection! But if someone professes to be saved and blithely carries on smoking publically with no sense of guilt, even after it's pointed out to them that it - like any addiction - is sinful and is a bad witness - I would question that person's salvation. Sensitivity to sin is one of the key marks of being born of God (1 John 1).

divaD
Sep 1st 2008, 01:49 PM
I understand that cigars are not as harmful to your health (if at all?)


I have to blatantly disagree with this. The man I work for, he smokes cigars all day long. This messes with my sinuses in a bad way and causes me to feel unbearable pressure in my eyes because of it. I know that that may sound vision related, but it's not. It's a sinus problem.

Some others on this same crew smoke cigarettes. These cigarettes don't mess with my sinuses the way that the cigars do. I know that it's the cigars, because this man only started smoking them 7-8 months ago. Before that, he was chewing tobacco.

graceforme
Sep 1st 2008, 02:31 PM
This is an issue that has caused much discussion within the Body of Christ. I know God does no desire that we destroy ourselves, as the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Thank God for His grace in our lives, as we continue to destroy ourselves with the food we eat (over-indulgence, additives and preservatives, insecticides, etc), the air we breathe (destroyed by emissions, etc.) and even the water we drink has so much added to it, it's not really pure water anymore. We are quickly wiping ourselves out by abusing ourselves and our environment. It's a true miracle that our body manages to keep going as long as it does.

Is smoking any worse than using hair spray, which is absorbed through the skin and hair follicles and also destroyes the Ozone? Is smoking any worse than over-eating? This country has a higher obesity rate than any country in the world. Is smoking any worse than destroying our air with emissions from cars, factories, etc.?

It is only by God's grace that our planet is still existing and not destroyed by our own stupidity. Amazing to me that even though we are better educated than ever before in history, we continue to do the same things and even worse to destroy ourselves.

If you consider the high cancer rate in this country, it should be obvious that we DO reap what we sow. Chemicals, constantly introduced into our bodies create conditions that should never exist.

I became very convicted about smoking when I got saved. God clearly let me know through conviction that I should not be smoking.

I looked up the notes on several passages regarding the body being the Temple of The Holy Spirit and here's what I found.

1 Cor. 3:16-17

"The Gr. word is "phrheiro" - to corrupt, spoil, ruin, waster, destroy. Trans. destroy in this verse; and to corrupt (1 Cor. 15:33; 2 Cor. 7:2; 11:3; Rev. 19:2; Jude 10; Eph. 4:22) This (V. 17) is a solemn warning against sex sin, alcoholic drinks, tobacco, narcotics, etc. which destroy the body."

I think there is a difference between indulging in a cigar once in a while (even though the smell of them nauseates me) and smoking cigarettes. Cigars are not addicting because you don't inhale the smoke. Cigarettes are a drug, julst like any other drug - habit-forming, and those who smoke them have little control over their need for the nicotine. I know I didn't. It controlled almost every aspect of my life. It's like the difference between someone who is controlled by alcohol, and can't resist it, and someone who has a glass of wine once in a great while.

It is God's desire that we live healthy lives, and when we purposely go against God's will we have to pay a price. And in the case of smoking, it is a horrible, painful, suffering price.

God relieved me of my smoking habit in 1989. It has been almost 20 years and I've never stopped giving Him the glory and praise for bringing me out of that pit.

Do I think I would have gone to hell if I hadn't stopped smoking? No, but I know my Christian witness would not have been what it should be. How can I effectively witness to someone when they are smelling my controlling habit on my breath? And no one wanted to be around me when I was trying to quit on my own, and I turned into "the beast!"

My heart goes out to anyone who is struggling with this addiction. It is only through the power of God that we can be released from those things which control us. If we trust in Him and He'll always do what is best for us.

Many blessings to all.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 03:25 PM
This is an issue that has caused much discussion within the Body of Christ. I know God does no desire that we destroy ourselves, as the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Thank God for His grace in our lives, as we continue to destroy ourselves with the food we eat (over-indulgence, additives and preservatives, insecticides, etc), the air we breathe (destroyed by emissions, etc.) and even the water we drink has so much added to it, it's not really pure water anymore. We are quickly wiping ourselves out by abusing ourselves and our environment. It's a true miracle that our body manages to keep going as long as it does.

Is smoking any worse than using hair spray, which is absorbed through the skin and hair follicles and also destroyes the Ozone? Is smoking any worse than over-eating? This country has a higher obesity rate than any country in the world. Is smoking any worse than destroying our air with emissions from cars, factories, etc.?

It is only by God's grace that our planet is still existing and not destroyed by our own stupidity. Amazing to me that even though we are better educated than ever before in history, we continue to do the same things and even worse to destroy ourselves.

If you consider the high cancer rate in this country, it should be obvious that we DO reap what we sow. Chemicals, constantly introduced into our bodies create conditions that should never exist.

I became very convicted about smoking when I got saved. God clearly let me know through conviction that I should not be smoking.

I looked up the notes on several passages regarding the body being the Temple of The Holy Spirit and here's what I found.

1 Cor. 3:16-17

"The Gr. word is "phrheiro" - to corrupt, spoil, ruin, waster, destroy. Trans. destroy in this verse; and to corrupt (1 Cor. 15:33; 2 Cor. 7:2; 11:3; Rev. 19:2; Jude 10; Eph. 4:22) This (V. 17) is a solemn warning against sex sin, alcoholic drinks, tobacco, narcotics, etc. which destroy the body."

I think there is a difference between indulging in a cigar once in a while (even though the smell of them nauseates me) and smoking cigarettes. Cigars are not addicting because you don't inhale the smoke. Cigarettes are a drug, julst like any other drug - habit-forming, and those who smoke them have little control over their need for the nicotine. I know I didn't. It controlled almost every aspect of my life. It's like the difference between someone who is controlled by alcohol, and can't resist it, and someone who has a glass of wine once in a great while.

It is God's desire that we live healthy lives, and when we purposely go against God's will we have to pay a price. And in the case of smoking, it is a horrible, painful, suffering price.

God relieved me of my smoking habit in 1989. It has been almost 20 years and I've never stopped giving Him the glory and praise for bringing me out of that pit.

Do I think I would have gone to hell if I hadn't stopped smoking? No, but I know my Christian witness would not have been what it should be. How can I effectively witness to someone when they are smelling my controlling habit on my breath? And no one wanted to be around me when I was trying to quit on my own, and I turned into "the beast!"

My heart goes out to anyone who is struggling with this addiction. It is only through the power of God that we can be released from those things which control us. If we trust in Him and He'll always do what is best for us.

Many blessings to all.

This is the best post yet in this thread on smoking and the Christian. Good work!

9Marksfan
Sep 1st 2008, 04:02 PM
I have to blatantly disagree with this. The man I work for, he smokes cigars all day long. This messes with my sinuses in a bad way and causes me to feel unbearable pressure in my eyes because of it. I know that that may sound vision related, but it's not. It's a sinus problem.

Some others on this same crew smoke cigarettes. These cigarettes don't mess with my sinuses the way that the cigars do. I know that it's the cigars, because this man only started smoking them 7-8 months ago. Before that, he was chewing tobacco.

I'm not seeking to justify cigar smoking - but surely having your sinuses irritated just isn't in the same league as passive smoking, which is now medically proven to leave those affected at risk of contracting lung cancer. There is a UK-wide ban on smoking in public places a a result. So, while you may find the cigar smoking man more immediately annoying, it's the ciggie smoking guys who will damage your health more long term. I would raise both issues with your employer - you shouldn't have to work in that kind of nauseating and unhealthy environment.

I agree wholeheartedly with graceforme's post, although clearly we don't really have a great deal of personal control over our polluted atmosphere - unless we decide to go live in the country!

graceforme
Sep 1st 2008, 05:04 PM
This is the best post yet in this thread on smoking and the Christian. Good work!


Thank you and God Bless.

divaD
Sep 1st 2008, 05:21 PM
I'm not seeking to justify cigar smoking - but surely having your sinuses irritated just isn't in the same league as passive
smoking


Hi 9Marksfan, I know you weren't. I noted the "?" at the end of your statement regarding cigars and health issues. By the same token, I'm not suggesting that cigar smoke irritates everyone's sinuses that come in contact with it. I was just trying to make the point that while cigar smoke may seem harmless to most, there is always that exception.

And I agree, in the long run, it would be the cigarette smoke that would be the smoking demon so to speak, since it has been clinically proven that second hand smoke can cause cancer in those that don't even smoke.

ChristianIssues
Jun 20th 2011, 09:50 AM
The verses used to support smoking a sin are misinterpreted. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 are not saying that God will destroy people who destroy their bodies but that God will destroy those who destroy His church. The following is a bit long but it is not easy to explain in a few words. This is an article of mine and is at http://www.christianissues.biz/miscellaneous.html#smoking

Is Smoking A Hell Deserving Sin?
1Co 3:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1Co%203.16-17) say, “Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you. If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple”. Some Christians say that these verses mean that people who smoke tobacco will end up in hell because they are destroying God's temple. If that was true then we would have to tell a person who is fat from overeating that they are heading for hell too because being overweight is also bad for our health. When 1 Cor. 3 is examined closely it will be found that these verses are not saying that God will destroy people who destroy their bodies but rather that He will destroy people who destroy His church.

1 Cor. 1:11-13 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%201.11-13) and 1 Cor. 3:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.1-8) tell us that the Corinthians were fighting about which man they should follow. Paul said that they should follow Jesus rather than follow men like himself or Apollos. He goes on to say that they were just servants with God-given tasks; one man plants, another waters but God makes things grow and each man will be rewarded according to his own labour. Then in 1 Cor. 3:9-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.9-11) he says that we Christians are God's building and that he has laid a foundation as an expert builder and each of us must be careful how we build on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

Then 1 Cor. 3:12-15 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.12-15) talk about how we build the church and warn that fire will test the quality of each man's work. The verses say that we can -
a) Build with gold, silver or costly stones and receive our reward or
b) Build with wood, hay or straw and, although we will still be saved, our work will be burned up.
Building with gold, silver or costly stones represent good leadership and sound doctrine while wood, hay and straw represent poor leadership and unsound doctrine.

So far, the chapter has spoken about building the church with good or poor leadership but there can also be bad leadership which destroys a church. Back in 1 Cor. 3:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.9), we Christians were referred to as God's building and 1 Cor. 3:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.16-17) continue with that picture, calling us God's Temple - “Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you [plural] are that temple”. God's temple is referring to the church, not individuals. When these verses are taken in the context of building the church, we see that they are saying that God will destroy bad leaders who destroy His church rather than build it up.

From this we can see that 1 Cor. 3:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.16-17) is not referring to destroying our body but to destroying the church. 1 Cor. 3:18 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.18) to 1 Cor. 4:6 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%204.6) continue on to further warn us not to follow the wisdom of men and in 1 Cor. 4:6 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%204.6) we are told, “Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”. So, if we follow what is written and not follow men then we will build well and not be corrupted by false teaching which will destroy a church.

So, we can see that this chapter is telling us to be careful how we build and to build on the foundation of Jesus because our rewards will be according to the way we build.
If we build well then we will be rewarded.
If we build poorly then we will still be saved but lose our rewards.
If anyone destroys the church then they will be destroyed.

If we take 1 Cor. 3:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Cor.%203.16-17) out of context and tell a smoker that he is going to hell then we ourselves will be guilty of poor doctrine. Also, the smoker may have little faith and poor self-control and what we say may destroy the little faith he has. Feeling hopelessly lost, he may turn to wine, women and song … which will certainly lead him to hell.

There is no doubt that smoking is bad for our health and people are in bondage to it but nowhere does the Bible say that smokers will go to hell. When the Bible is silent on something then we should be also but of course smokers should be encouraged to quit the habit.

God bless,
Mick

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 10:38 AM
No, smoking is not a sin. Sin is the breaking of God's law. There is no verse that says that smoking is a sin.

When people teach as doctrines commandments of men, they are taking the place of God. We should be afraid of teaching as doctrines, commmandments of men. If I go to preach to native americans, and they tell me that before preaching I have to smoke the pipe of peace with them... in order not to offend them.... I will for sure smoke it.

Mark 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man (that includes smoke), that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

But I do not want my kids to smoke because it is outrageously stupid.

Peace

-SEEKING-
Jun 20th 2011, 11:55 AM
Is Smoking A Sin?

No.

Is it wise?

No.

awestruckchild
Jun 20th 2011, 12:06 PM
No, smoking is not a sin. Sin is the breaking of God's law. There is no verse that says that smoking is a sin.

When people teach as doctrines commandments of men, they are taking the place of God. We should be afraid of teaching as doctrines, commmandments of men. If I go to preach to native americans, and they tell me that before preaching I have to smoke the pipe of peace with them... in order not to offend them.... I will for sure smoke it.

Mark 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man (that includes smoke), that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

But I do not want my kids to smoke because it is outrageously stupid.

Peace

Hi servant!

Another verse I believe is applicable: All things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable for me.

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 12:10 PM
Paul said:1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

When the body is the boss of the soul.... That is called.... Addiction. We know of germs, we know of many diseases that are transmitted when people fail to wash their hands before eating. Washing our hands before eating is preferred. But when the religious establishment starts teaching that eating with unwashed hands is a sin, we must step forward and tell the truth, it is not a sin to eat with unwashed hands, it is not a sin to smoke. Smoking is as much a sin, as eating cupcakes or a banana split.

Peace

steelcurtain76
Jun 20th 2011, 12:34 PM
I don't have a problem with calling smoking a sin, but what about gluttony. I know plenty of people who think smoking is a sin, but are packing on atleast 50+ lbs extra that they shouldn't have and hitting the buffet line at the church pot luck once too many times. If smoking is called out, so should gluttony.

awestruckchild
Jun 20th 2011, 01:02 PM
I don't have a problem with calling smoking a sin, but what about gluttony. I know plenty of people who think smoking is a sin, but are packing on atleast 50+ lbs extra that they shouldn't have and hitting the buffet line at the church pot luck once too many times. If smoking is called out, so should gluttony.

These things are really more to do with the outside of our cup and not our hearts condition.
But you are seeing what nonbelievers also seem to see so keenly but yet believers are often blind to - hypocrisy.
Why is it that we can often be blind to our hypocrisies and yet unbelievers can see it so keenly and immediately? Isn't it weird somehow?

RollTide21
Jun 20th 2011, 02:07 PM
And I think smoking is a very bad witness to others. The world watches us very closely, and whenever we do things that are like the world, it shows them that we aren't really very different after all. Scripture says we are to be a "peculiar people" meaning that we shouldn't do what the world does.

And, looking at it from a very logical point of view - with all the information that is out there now regarding how much damage smoking does to the person and those around them, I can't understand how anyone with a brain in their head would want to start smoking.

God Bless.This is a common idea, but our witness to the world isn't about us not doing what the World does. If a guy likes to smoke cigarettes or get sloppy drunk at a party, the fact that Christians don't do this isn't going to impress him.

Like another poster said, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Smoking, alchohol and drug abuse, stuffing our faces with food that is terrible for us, etc...all are in conflict with holiness. That's why we are supposed to refrain from unhealthy things.

With regards to our witness, the Body of Christ should be more focused on love and charity. A person who is lost is going to see Christ in the person who is kind, giving, generous, has self control, etc., much moreso than in somebody who just doesn't cuss or drink. Actions only matter when the heart is clearly in the right place. If a Christian doesn't smoke or drink, but has a bad attitude...or has shown an inability to handle adversity...or is closed off from the world in their own self-righteousness, is that REALLY going to be a witness to somebody? Is a sinner going to say, "Boy...I want to be just like that."

graceforme, I don't mean to direct this at you specifically. LOL! I'm just ranting.

mattlad22
Jun 20th 2011, 02:18 PM
No smoking is not a sin.

Its not what goes into the body that defiles it, its what comes out of it, those things come from the heart, in no way shape or form does smoking represent sin.

Smoking is a sin if knowingly your brethren has told you while your in thier presence that smoking causes thier faith to stumble and you smoke in front of them anyways disregarding your brethren and causing them to sin in their own hearts, setting up a stumbling block, because you show no peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit to avert such a conflict, but the smoking itself is not a sin.
Not only have you sinned againts your brethren, you have set up a position for your brethren to stumble.

O you of little faith.

RollTide21
Jun 20th 2011, 02:24 PM
These things are really more to do with the outside of our cup and not our hearts condition.
But you are seeing what nonbelievers also seem to see so keenly but yet believers are often blind to - hypocrisy.
Why is it that we can often be blind to our hypocrisies and yet unbelievers can see it so keenly and immediately? Isn't it weird somehow?It's because we're trying to set ourselves apart from non-believers by telling them "See. We don't do the bad things that you guys do." I believe that God wants us to live holy lives, but this is pointless to a non-believer without the spirit of love and charity.

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 04:14 PM
It's because we're trying to set ourselves apart from non-believers by telling them "See. We don't do the bad things that you guys do." I believe that God wants us to live holy lives, but this is pointless to a non-believer without the spirit of love and charity.

And that is why sinners did not get along with Pharisees... That is boasting about the law, Even worse... a man made law, that is self righteousness ...." We don't do what you guys do...?" We are worse!!! We are self righteous... Sinners don't come to us with that line... We are not sinners like you...

Is 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

If it is not in the Bible, we should not be preaching it.

Peace

Hunter121
Jun 20th 2011, 04:16 PM
It could also become gluttony

the sound
Jun 20th 2011, 04:26 PM
what about the companys that make them?

VerticalReality
Jun 20th 2011, 04:39 PM
These things are really more to do with the outside of our cup and not our hearts condition.

Not that I think smoking is a sin or anything, but scripture teaches that the outside of our cup is indicative of our heart condition.

mattlad22
Jun 20th 2011, 04:44 PM
Not that I think smoking is a sin or anything, but scripture teaches that the outside of our cup is indicative of our heart condition.

Then we should refrain from breathing the air.
Our common air contains poisins our body deals with, smoking while it multiplies that, does nothing in effect to the hearts condition, simple breathing also does the exact same effect in that regard on a smaller scale.

Its not the smoking thats the sin, its the outward defilement of the heart that sins.
I gave an example of it in an earlier post.

My post isnt to say you were saying its a sin, as you began your post with that directive.

notuptome
Jun 20th 2011, 06:57 PM
Smoking may not be a sin and smoking may not send a soul to hell but surely does make it smell like it's already been there.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 08:30 PM
If someone thinks smoking is a sin, then it is for them.

episkopos
Jun 20th 2011, 08:51 PM
Paul said:1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

When the body is the boss of the soul.... That is called.... Addiction. We know of germs, we know of many diseases that are transmitted when people fail to wash their hands before eating. Washing our hands before eating is preferred. But when the religious establishment starts teaching that eating with unwashed hands is a sin, we must step forward and tell the truth, it is not a sin to eat with unwashed hands, it is not a sin to smoke. Smoking is as much a sin, as eating cupcakes or a banana split.

Peace

Amen! Good post!!

episkopos
Jun 20th 2011, 08:52 PM
If someone thinks smoking is a sin, then it is for them.

Another good post!!!! Rep time! :)

ChristianIssues
Jun 20th 2011, 09:33 PM
No, smoking is not a sin. Sin is the breaking of God's law. There is no verse that says that smoking is a sin.
But I do not want my kids to smoke because it is outrageously stupid.

Peace

Amen to that.

God bless,
Mick

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 09:39 PM
If someone thinks smoking is a sin, then it is for them.

Yes that is true. But the Bible describes those as the weak in the faith. They do not have a full understanding of God's way. Jesus did not go around saying that to those that believe that eating with unwashed hands... It was a sin if they failed to wash... Did he?

Peace

mattlad22
Jun 20th 2011, 10:15 PM
Yes that is true. But the Bible describes those as the weak in the faith. They do not have a full understanding of God's way. Jesus did not go around saying that to those that believe that eating with unwashed hands... It was a sin if they failed to wash... Did he?

Peace

Exactly but it is the greater calling of those who have faith to recognize those who may see it as a sin and to incorprate the responsible decision around them so that they do not stumble, it isa sin to deliberatley cause your brethren to stumble, doesnt matter if you have more faith or not, choose what is going to cause peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 10:26 PM
Exactly but it is the greater calling of those who have faith to recognize those who may see it as a sin and to incorprate the responsible decision around them so that they do not stumble, it isa sin to deliberatley cause your brethren to stumble, doesnt matter if you have more faith or not, choose what is going to cause peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit.

It really really matters..... Because this people draws near to God with their lips, and honor him with their mouth, but their heart is far from God, and their worship is in vain, teaching for doctrines, commandments of men. When we teach as doctrines, what is not in the Bible, we take the place of God. Good luck with that.

And why stop there? Why not teach that eating ice-cream is sin? After all, some fat people cannot control themselves and are eating themselves to death... Right?

Peace

mattlad22
Jun 20th 2011, 10:40 PM
It really really matters..... Because this people draws near to God with their lips, and honor him with their mouth, but their heart is far from God, and their worship is in vain, teaching for doctrines, commandments of men. When we teach as doctrines, what is not in the Bible, we take the place of God. Good luck with that.

And why stop there? Why not teach that eating ice-cream is sin? After all, some fat people cannot control themselves and are eating themselves to death... Right?

Peace

Your takin it like im saying just let it be, its not so, you must have faith in patience, dont judge the book by its cover, we dont know what manner of grace each individual will be given through God, but if they see it as a sin, conform, dont smoke around them, doesnt mean you have to stop, but for the sake of your brethren at the present time, dont cause a stumbling block, maybe down the road he/she will not see it the same way.
Look to the invisible things in faith.
I smoke, i would not smoke near anyone who heart felt thought it was a sin, it doent mean im sinning andit doesnt mean they are either, but for the sake of avoiding any account of sin, dont smoke around them, peace (no coflict can possibly arise) love (your conforming yourself out of love for your brethren, so you stop) joy (no conflict on any level equals joy) in the Holy Spirit.

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 10:41 PM
Yes that is true. But the Bible describes those as the weak in the faith. They do not have a full understanding of God's way. Jesus did not go around saying that to those that believe that eating with unwashed hands... It was a sin if they failed to wash... Did he?

Peace

Paul said it. Did Paul lie?

Not everyone can be a giant in faith as you are. Yet you are commanded to love them just the same.

notuptome
Jun 20th 2011, 10:47 PM
Interesting on how we approach these issues. Do we teach from the position that we are to do only those things specifically supported by scripture or do we teach if scripture is silent we are free to do as we please?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mattlad22
Jun 20th 2011, 10:50 PM
Interesting on how we approach these issues. Do we teach from the position that we are to do only those things specifically supported by scripture or do we teach if scripture is silent we are free to do as we please?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It isnt silent about the issue though, it stictly says its not what enters the body that defiles, its what we give outwardly.

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 11:05 PM
Interesting on how we approach these issues. Do we teach from the position that we are to do only those things specifically supported by scripture or do we teach if scripture is silent we are free to do as we please?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Or, you could consult a rabbi. They're really good at adding volumes upon volumes of halacha where the Bible is silent.

You know, everyone has an opinion.

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 11:06 PM
It isnt silent about the issue though, it stictly says its not what enters the body that defiles, its what we give outwardly.

Would you say gluttony defiles the body or something else?

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 11:18 PM
Your takin it like im saying just let it be, its not so, you must have faith in patience, dont judge the book by its cover, we dont know what manner of grace each individual will be given through God, but if they see it as a sin, conform, dont smoke around them, doesnt mean you have to stop, but for the sake of your brethren at the present time, dont cause a stumbling block, maybe down the road he/she will not see it the same way.
Look to the invisible things in faith.
I smoke, i would not smoke near anyone who heart felt thought it was a sin, it doent mean im sinning andit doesnt mean they are either, but for the sake of avoiding any account of sin, dont smoke around them, peace (no coflict can possibly arise) love (your conforming yourself out of love for your brethren, so you stop) joy (no conflict on any level equals joy) in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus worked on Sabbath days in front of the pharisees. And when confronted, he said, My Father works Saturdays and so do I ... deal with it. (John 5:16-18)

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 20th 2011, 11:21 PM
Paul said it. Did Paul lie?

You got me there, you got me good. I am serious, I stand corrected... and loving it!!!!


Yet you are commanded to love them just the same.

Yes I have to love them.... You are correct.

Peace

keck553
Jun 20th 2011, 11:56 PM
Yes I have to love them.... You are correct.

Peace

And therein my friend, we find peace. :)

CommanderRobey
Jun 21st 2011, 12:26 AM
While it is true that Spurgeon smoked cigars, one must hear the rest of the story. Years ago, a billboard company put up a picture of Spurgeon enjoying one of his cigars with a caption that said 'Smoke the brand that Spurgeon smokes" Upon seeing that billboard, Spurgeon gave up cigars for good.

ChristianIssues
Jun 21st 2011, 01:11 AM
The Bible doesn't specifically label smoking as a sin but it is poor for a Christian's image. Also, the Bible says that it is OK to have a bit of wine, but in doing so a person may lead another person, with poor self-control, to excessive drinking - I was a drinker with lousy self control. So whatever we do we have to do it for God's glory and not cause anyone to stumble.

The point of the original post is that we shouldn't condemn smokers because the Bible doesn't.

God bless,
Mick

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 01:27 AM
Would you say gluttony defiles the body or something else?

Yes it does, not because of the act againts the body but because of where the heart is at, gluttony is a form of greed.

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 01:35 AM
Jesus worked on Sabbath days in front of the pharisees. And when confronted, he said, My Father works Saturdays and so do I ... deal with it. (John 5:16-18)

Shalom

Servant89, thats a completely different situation all together and you know that, they were trying to stop His ministry, were not trying to stop anything except doing something that can cause your brother to stumble.
Theres no peace, love and joy in telling the brethren thanks but no thanks i dont care about you, ill smoke my smoke because through my grace given faith i can knowing its not a sin, while your brethren at that point thinks to themselves several different things 1.That your not very Christ like 2. That maybe they are not good enough for God, its creating a situation that isnt going to bring peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit, theres a scriptural representation of the same thing in dealing with food and faith regarding your brethren, i havent posted it yet, im hoping someone else will, but what i have been speaking is exactly what is said in that scripture, and yes, i am going to wait a little longer.

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 01:58 AM
Servant89, thats a completely different situation all together and you know that, they were trying to stop His ministry, were not trying to stop anything except doing something that can cause your brother to stumble.
Theres no peace, love and joy in telling the brethren thanks but no thanks i dont care about you, ill smoke my smoke because through my grace given faith i can knowing its not a sin, while your brethren at that point thinks to themselves several different things 1.That your not very Christ like 2. That maybe they are not good enough for God, its creating a situation that isnt going to bring peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit, theres a scriptural representation of the same thing in dealing with food and faith regarding your brethren, i havent posted it yet, im hoping someone else will, but what i have been speaking is exactly what is said in that scripture, and yes, i am going to wait a little longer.

If I ever go to India to preach.... I will be vegetarian there, to not offend them. But when I talk to other Christians about doctrine, I tell them the truth.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Servant89

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 02:04 AM
If I ever go to India to preach.... I will be vegetarian there, to not offend them. But when I talk to other Christians about doctrine, I tell them the truth.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Servant89

I dont disagree at all, in fact if you read my post's you'll see i am actually in full agreement with this.
I'm a smoker and i have been saying it isnt a sin and why, ive also been showing how it can be for the smoker and the brethren around, which you just touched on how to avoid it in this post above, which i have been doing the whole time in truth.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 02:11 AM
Yes that is true. But the Bible describes those as the weak in the faith. They do not have a full understanding of God's way. Jesus did not go around saying that to those that believe that eating with unwashed hands... It was a sin if they failed to wash... Did he?

Peace

Whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23). And does not the following passage apply in principle:

1 Cor 8:1-13
1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
NASB

And should we not consider others to be more important than ourselves?

Phil 2:3-4
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
NASB

Certainly, these are biblical principles which we should consider thoughtfully and apply to our behavior when in the company of the brethren or for that matter even the immediate family.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 02:17 AM
Or, you could consult a rabbi. They're really good at adding volumes upon volumes of halacha where the Bible is silent.

You know, everyone has an opinion.

I have, yet, to find anything in God's Rule Book of Life that isn't in scripture that is expressed explicitly, implicitly or in principle.

Rufus

TrustingFollower
Jun 21st 2011, 02:23 AM
Smoking is no more sin than watching TV in this day and age. Leave the conviction to the Holy Spirit as to judging for each what is sin. We as Christians need only to show the love of Christ through ourselves to, not only our brothers and sister in the faith, but more so to the rest of the world. What unbeliever would ever want to even look at the faith if we as Christians are so unloving to each other over something like smoking that they would not want to be apart of that kind of condemnation. I know I would never have come to the faith if I would have been faced with the judgment about my habits by those trying to bring me into the fold. We need to look at the way Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery in John chapter 8 for how we should conduct ourselves in regards to judging the actions of others, whom ever is without sin can cast the stones.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 02:30 AM
And I did forget one principle. And I've dubbed this the "killer principle" because it's so broad,so sweeping, so all- encompassing that it will kill 99.44% of any questionable behavior. Here it is:

1 Cor 10:31-33
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.
NASB

For example, is smoking cigarettes going to bring God glory? Is God going to be glorified by the unbelievers who know you're a Christian and see you smoking and think unflattering thoughts about you? Is God going to be glorified as you ruin your testimony before unbelievers or even believers? The Law of Christ is so demanding that whatever we do, it must bring glory to the Father.

Rufus

TrustingFollower
Jun 21st 2011, 02:40 AM
And I did forget one principle. And I've dubbed this the "killer principle" because it's so broad,so sweeping, so all- encompassing that it will kill 99.44% of any questionable behavior. Here it is:

1 Cor 10:31-33
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.
NASB

For example, is smoking cigarettes going to bring God glory? Is God going to be glorified by the unbelievers who know you're a Christian and see you smoking and think unflattering thoughts about you? Is God going to be glorified as you ruin your testimony before unbelievers or even believers? The Law of Christ is so demanding that whatever we do, it must bring glory to the Father.

Rufus

Who made the tobacco plant? What was the tobacco plant made for? Who made the unbeliever? What reason did He make the tobacco plant and the unbeliever? He made them all for His good purpose and His glory. Who are we to judge what brings God glory? Glory to you may be different than what glory to me is, what is why we are not to judge. Remember we will be judged in the same manor we judge others. Leave the judging up to God and simple love people for who they are. That is what Jesus commanded his followers to do. Loving the way Jesus loves us brings all the glory to God.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 04:19 AM
Who made the tobacco plant? What was the tobacco plant made for? Who made the unbeliever? What reason did He make the tobacco plant and the unbeliever? He made them all for His good purpose and His glory. Who are we to judge what brings God glory? Glory to you may be different than what glory to me is, what is why we are not to judge. Remember we will be judged in the same manor we judge others. Leave the judging up to God and simple love people for who they are. That is what Jesus commanded his followers to do. Loving the way Jesus loves us brings all the glory to God.

"Who are we to judge"? Then why did Paul write what he did? Is that what Paul meant? Just do anything you want if it isn't explicitly forbidden and leave it up to God to judge what brings him glory? If it's all up to God to judge, why the command?

As far as unbelievers: Oh, yes, they will give glory to God the Father on the Last day when everyone of them will bow their knee to Christ and confess him as Lord. Then after they are thrown in the Lake of Fire, they will glorify his justice for all eternity.

And He also made the marijuana plant and the poppy seed, and a host of other illegal and mind-altering substances, also? Should Christians freely partake of these, too? Because after all...he made it all for his glory?

And I can and should judge. Is it not written?

John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

And this is opposed to judging others with evil motives, also (Jas 2:4)

Now, would you care to explain how being addicted to cigs and smoking them wherever as a Christian brings glory to God? Can you explain how satisfying a nicotine habit in front of others (believers and unbelievers alike) is edifying to them? Can you explain all the ways a cigarette habit bears good witness to your testimony? Can you explain how smoking cigs in front of your kids provides them with a good role model? How does a parent justify to his kids that an addictive habit is a good thing? Or for that matter to anyone that it's a good thing?

Don't get me wrong: If you want to smoke in your prayer closet in secret where only your Father sees you, I suppose that might be better. However...even then...such a tactic would betray that your smoking isn't done in good faith; for you would definitely be harboring doubts, fears and guilt about doing it openly and publicly. In which case, whatever is not of faith would still be sin (Rom 14:23).

In fact...I'll take this Rom 14:23 passage even further: The very fact that the question is asked about smoking betrays doubt. If such a question needs to be asked, then chances are very good it isn't of faith. And you know what? Without faith, it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). Therefore, whatever is not done in faith, as a professing Christian, cannot possibly glorify God.

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 04:40 AM
"Who are we to judge"? Then why did Paul write what he did? Is that what Paul meant? Just do anything you want if it isn't explicitly forbidden and leave it up to God to judge what brings him glory? If it's all up to God to judge, why the command?

As far as unbelievers: Oh, yes, they will give glory to God the Father on the Last day when everyone of them will bow their knee to Christ and confess him as Lord. Then after they are thrown in the Lake of Fire, they will glorify his justice for all eternity.

And He also made the marijuana plant and the poppy seed, and a host of other illegal and mind-altering substances, also? Should Christians freely partake of these, too? Because after all...he made it all for his glory?

And I can and should judge. Is it not written?

John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

And this is opposed to judging others with evil motives, also (Jas 2:4)

Now, would you care to explain how being addicted to cigs and smoking them wherever as a Christian brings glory to God? Can you explain how satisfying a nicotine habit in front of others (believers and unbelievers alike) is edifying to them? Can you explain all the ways a cigarette habit bears good witness to your testimony? Can you explain how smoking cigs in front of your kids provides them with a good role model? How does a parent justify to his kids that an addictive habit is a good thing? Or for that matter to anyone that it's a good thing?

Don't get me wrong: If you want to smoke in your prayer closet in secret where only your Father sees you, I suppose that might be better. However...even then...such a tactic would betray that your smoking isn't done in good faith; for you would definitely be harboring doubts, fears and guilt about doing it openly and publicly. In which case, whatever is not of faith would still be sin (Rom 14:23).

In fact...I'll take this Rom 14:23 passage even further: The very fact that the question is asked about smoking betrays doubt. If such a question needs to be asked, then chances are very good it isn't of faith. And you know what? Without faith, it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). Therefore, whatever is not done in faith, as a professing Christian, cannot possibly glorify God.

Rufus

Can you explain how it doesnt? Besides your personal prefrences?
Are you going to tell me because it kills you...more? Most food you eat can kill you and is, the water you drink is toxic, the air you breath is killing you, you are naturally dieing from all kinds of things, but smoking is greater than the rest? Are they not all bad for you?

Does not my faith in God regarding the consequences of smoking and my faith that He is my Deliverer bring Him as much glory as it does for you?
I think so, as i have posted, it isnt what goes in that defiles, it is what comes out, which is from the heart.

Would i smoke around you? No, because i know it can cause you to stumble through your post's.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 05:03 AM
Can you explain how it doesnt? Besides your personal prefrences?
Are you going to tell me because it kills you...more? Most food you eat can kill you and is, the water you drink is toxic, the air you breath is killing you, you are naturally dieing from all kinds of things, but smoking is greater than the rest? Are they not all bad for you?

Does not my faith in God regarding the consequences of smoking and my faith that He is my Deliverer bring Him as much glory as it does for you?
I think so, as i have posted, it isnt what goes in that defiles, it is what comes out, which is from the heart.

Would i smoke around you? No, because i know it can cause you to stumble through your post's.

It has far less to do with my "personal preferences" and everything about being true to God's word and biblical principles.

And, no, smoking around me would not cause me to stumble either. It pleased God to save me over 30 years ago. I'm a "seasoned warrior". :)

And in 1 Cor 10:31, Paul is talking about believers conduct -- their behavior -- "WHATEVER you DO..." Your conduct is on display to the world. Your behavior is on display to other Christians. What you do at home in front of your children is going to impact them. Tell me: Why is your conduct only all about YOU?

And now you want me to justify my position by telling you why it's not a good habit? Why? Because you're unable to justify your habit? You cannot tell me how great an addictive habit is? If you're doing something and you can't give me reasons why it's good, then I have a little news flash for you: It isn't! And if it isn't good, it's evil!

And your analogy about food and water is pretty weak, don't you think? Food and water are staples of life! We need to eat and drink. And we need to breathe. But do we need to get involved in an addictive habit? Do we have to choose to become addicts to anything? How is being enslaved to anything good, with the exception of being slaves of Christ? And even then, he called us his "friends".

Rufus

NHL Fever
Jun 21st 2011, 05:17 AM
Issues like smoking, glutony, and other health issues are important because we are no longer ignorant of their effects and they speak a lot to our attitudes in life. God's has given you various resources physical, financial, and otherwise etc and its up to you to take good care and be wise with those resources. That means your body is not their for your enjoyment (food, smoking, alcohol etc) but for God's Glory. Giving yourself heart problems or becoming an overweight mess hinders your ability to use what God has given to the full potential that it is capable of. That's no different than indulging yourself in the resources God have you to be used wisely. In our culture we desperately want to believe that because we have it, its ours to do with as we please. This way we don't have to feel bad about stuffing our face for pleasure or medicating ourselves to feel better, more calm etc. There is no question that if you care about God's will for your life, than you care about wisely managing the tools He gave you.

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 05:30 AM
It has far less to do with my "personal preferences" and everything about being true to God's word and biblical principles.

And, no, smoking around me would not cause me to stumble either. It pleased God to save me over 30 years ago. I'm a "seasoned warrior". :)

And in 1 Cor 10:31, Paul is talking about believers conduct -- their behavior -- "WHATEVER you DO..." Your conduct is on display to the world. Your behavior is on display to other Christians. What you do at home in front of your children is going to impact them. Tell me: Why is your conduct only all about YOU?

And now you want me to justify my position by telling you why it's not a good habit? Why? Because you're unable to justify your habit? You cannot tell me how great an addictive habit is? If you're doing something and you can't give me reasons why it's good, then I have a little news flash for you: It isn't! And if it isn't good, it's evil!

And your analogy about food and water is pretty weak, don't you think? Food and water are staples of life! We need to eat and drink. And we need to breathe. But do we need to get involved in an addictive habit? Do we have to choose to become addicts to anything? How is being enslaved to anything good, with the exception of being slaves of Christ? And even then, he called us his "friends".

Rufus

It isnt, thats what your not understanding, your incorprating it as being veiwed by all other people and God as "bad" when as it is said, its not what you take in that defiles, but what comes out, because it is from the heart.

Your placing a stigma on smoking because you think all others will veiw it as bad, now i can tell you right now why some people who dont smoke dont like it, they dont like the smell and they believe it kills them more than most other things.
Both of those are personal prefrences, some people smell bad, naturally, may things smell terrible, pretty much everything kills you, tomorrow kills you more than today (time), the air you breath kills you, the food you eat, the water you drink, the mode of transportation, walking on unsafe grounds kills you, everything can physically kill you.

No actually it isnt weak, its truth, but the prefrence is greater, all still kill you, the act of eating and drinking can kill you (choking), not to mention you can be poisined and are slowly poisined in all 3.

Romans 14:14-23:
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Matt 15:11
It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Matt 15:17
“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.

Mark 7:18-23
So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

So how does smoking not relate to foods in this exact same area? Whats the difference besides personal preference?

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 05:40 AM
Issues like smoking, glutony, and other health issues are important because we are no longer ignorant of their effects and they speak a lot to our attitudes in life. God's has given you various resources physical, financial, and otherwise etc and its up to you to take good care and be wise with those resources. That means your body is not their for your enjoyment (food, smoking, alcohol etc) but for God's Glory. Giving yourself heart problems or becoming an overweight mess hinders your ability to use what God has given to the full potential that it is capable of. That's no different than indulging yourself in the resources God have you to be used wisely. In our culture we desperately want to believe that because we have it, its ours to do with as we please. This way we don't have to feel bad about stuffing our face for pleasure or medicating ourselves to feel better, more calm etc. There is no question that if you care about God's will for your life, than you care about wisely managing the tools He gave you.

That still doesnt clear anything up, in that case we should all wear mask's, not do anything that can hinder our physical ability in any form of damage or hinderage, eat our foods through a blender and have it scientifically checked prior to make sure it is clean of all bacterial damage that may be within...........how about we just have faith?
I can honestly tell you i smoke, i can probably out physically endure most people, which currently I dont know how that will serve for the cause of Christ, not saying it cant.

Know what i mean? Were setting an impossible presedence instead of just having faith in God, did a viper not strike Paul and it did nothing, infact he didnt even shrug about it, the men did, but he didnt, Paul had great faith. I have great faith that smoking does not affect my faith towards God, nor does it hinder me in my daily walk any less than my daily walk already contains, and if such a hinderance did partake in my life, your right, i dont care, because i dont belong here, i am the Lords i belong with Him and He is the presedence as to when I go to sleep or am gathered to Him. What is this world to me? What are the things of this world? they are nothing, but i remain to serve my Lord and in doing so i would not do something in the presence of a brethren that would cause him to stumble if i am aware of it and that is where my faith is drawn at a line, because i will stop that "indulgance" out of love for my brethren and to not destroy the work of God.

Longsufferer
Jun 21st 2011, 06:17 AM
No, because it has nothing to do with what comes forth from the heart. For smoking does not cause a person to have evil thoughts, aduteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: which are the things that do corrupt the temple of God.

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 01:05 PM
Smoking is no more sin than watching TV in this day and age..

Triple AMEN! Smoking does not cause us to lust after the things of this world like TV does. And yet, none of these none smokers will dare get rid of their TV. The Hypocrisy!!!!

I am telling you all, this thread is causing me to consider starting smoking... just because I want to stay as far away from the self righteous as I can. I much rather be a smoker than a Christian that teaches as doctrines of God... commandments of men.

Forget about how we behave in front of those that are weak in the faith. The issue here, the question of this thread is this.... Is smoking a sin? The issue deals with what is the truth... Is eating meat a sin? The answer is no, but if I go to India to preach the gospel, I will be vegetarian for the sake of winning them to Christ. Is smoking a sin? Heaven's no!!!! PERIOD. NO, NO, NO. Stop justifying your doctrine that Smoking is a sin. It is not more a sin than eating meat or watching TV.

I better stay away from this thread or I will start smoking soon.

Shalom

Realist1981
Jun 21st 2011, 01:30 PM
I hate being a smoker and I've tried to quit. I've "stopped" for months at a time (6 months have been the longest) but something triggers a reaction. Nobody truly "quits" until you leave the earth.

Is it a sin?
No
Is it bad for witnessing like someone I'm sure said in this thread yes.

I say this as I'm buying another batch of nicotein patches today. And I look on this website and boom this thread is here.

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 01:48 PM
I hate being a smoker and I've tried to quit. I've "stopped" for months at a time (6 months have been the longest) but something triggers a reaction. Nobody truly "quits" until you leave the earth.

Is it a sin?
No
Is it bad for witnessing like someone I'm sure said in this thread yes.

I say this as I'm buying another batch of nicotein patches today. And I look on this website and boom this thread is here.

I am trying to lose weight and I just had a glass of chocolate milk (about 220 calories). I love oreo cookies, if it has sugar, bring it on! I lost 4 pounds last week because I was on travel, I bought fruit to have in the hotel for snaks and I walked 5 miles a day. But when I get home, with my fridge and pantry full... I have such little will to stay away from what my body wants....

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

That's me, left to myself, that's me.

I much rather surround myself with smokers than self righteouss people.

Shalom

Indueseason
Jun 21st 2011, 01:54 PM
I hate being a smoker and I've tried to quit. I've "stopped" for months at a time (6 months have been the longest) but something triggers a reaction. Nobody truly "quits" until you leave the earth.

Is it a sin?
No
Is it bad for witnessing like someone I'm sure said in this thread yes.

I say this as I'm buying another batch of nicotein patches today. And I look on this website and boom this thread is here.

Greetings Realist, Having been caught in the grips of nicotine addiction myself, I understand the highs and the lows of trying to quit. I pray that the Lord will help you overcome. I had to just bring a little more hope to your post, by saying there are many people like myself, who with the help from the Lord, have truly quit. I haven't had the slightest interest in nicotine for over 14 years, praise God! I have lived through all the usual triggers ( mines were usually stress related) and I honestly say the thought of smoking has never entered my mind! The Lord is able, for we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us! Don't give up, breakthrough may be nearer than you think! :)

blessings to you :hug:

Realist1981
Jun 21st 2011, 03:07 PM
Thank you for the encouragement Indueseason, I'm not gonna quit quitting, I've been praying for delieverance. As you know it's all mental/spiritual.

RollTide21
Jun 21st 2011, 03:26 PM
The Bible doesn't specifically label smoking as a sin but it is poor for a Christian's image. Also, the Bible says that it is OK to have a bit of wine, but in doing so a person may lead another person, with poor self-control, to excessive drinking - I was a drinker with lousy self control. So whatever we do we have to do it for God's glory and not cause anyone to stumble.

The point of the original post is that we shouldn't condemn smokers because the Bible doesn't.

God bless,
MickAbove is how "not causing someone to stumble" should be viewed. Within Christendom, the view has been distorted, however. None of us with any sense of the Holy Spirit believe that abusing alchohol is in keeping with the Nature of Christ. But...many denominations don't drink alchohol at all under a sweeping declaration that "drinking=worldliness". People use the standard line: "It hurts our witness". Really? My having a few beers on the weekend doesn't affect my witness to my unsaved friends in the least. They see Christ in my because I don't lose control with it like they do, I don't have a potty mouth like most of them do, and, most importantly, they know that my Faith is the center of my life. If anything, I'm more approachable because they don't see me as a "do-gooder"...a label that doesn't help anyone see Christ. I used to think that I had to make sure that EVERYTHING I did was NOTHING like the World. The Spirit has shown me that it's not about doing and not doing, but about exhibiting the characteristics of Christ. Obviously, when we are Christlike in the Holy Spirit, there are some things we do not do. But...we let the Spirit lead and the actions follow, not the other way around.

This is one area where Scripture doesn't provide the specifics. It's a good example of how simply following our New Nature in Christ can lead us correctly.

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 04:29 PM
I have, yet, to find anything in God's Rule Book of Life that isn't in scripture that is expressed explicitly, implicitly or in principle.

Rufus

I can't decipher your comment. I'm just a simple man. Could you rephrase it please?

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 04:31 PM
If I ever go to India to preach.... I will be vegetarian there, to not offend them. But when I talk to other Christians about doctrine, I tell them the truth.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Servant89

But Paul isn't talking about unbelievers in Romans 14. He's talking about fellow believers, isn't he?

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 04:35 PM
An advice for the Lord Jesus 2,000 years ago... (not really recommended)

Listen Lord, you really need to stop working on the day of rest.... really. It is ruining your testimony!!! People are turning away from you for blatanly breaking the Sabbath rest by working on it.

I dont think the Lord cared for "impressing man"... The Bible says: 1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. And that is true indeed... But based on who's standards?

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 04:38 PM
But Paul isn't talking about unbelievers in Romans 14. He's talking about fellow believers, isn't he?

Yes, Paul is talking to Christians living in Rome. Peace.

tango
Jun 21st 2011, 04:39 PM
I used to think that I had to make sure that EVERYTHING I did was NOTHING like the World. The Spirit has shown me that it's not about doing and not doing, but about exhibiting the characteristics of Christ.

It's funny how the people who say "don't drink alcohol because that's what The World does" are quite happy to use the internet, eat food, go to work, drive cars, live in houses etc. You know, the things that The World does that they think would be too inconvenient to not do themselves.

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 04:44 PM
An advice for the Lord Jesus 2,000 years ago... (not really recommended)

Listen Lord, you really need to stop working on the day of rest.... really. It is ruining your testimony!!! People are turning away from you for blatanly breaking the Sabbath rest by working on it.

I dont think the Lord cared for "impressing man"... The Bible says: 1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. And that is true indeed... But based on who's standards?

Shalom

That would be God's standards. God even included a tutor in His Word so that we would know what they are.

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 06:41 PM
That would be God's standards. God even included a tutor in His Word so that we would know what they are.

Thank you! Well put!

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Shalom

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 06:51 PM
Thank you! Well put!

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Shalom

So then it is my response to abide in what He teaches me. To not aibide in what He teaches me would be...disobedience?

Perhaps He's taught you something He hasn't choose to teach me. How could I abide in something He hasn't revealed to me? Would I be disobedient or just ignorant?

Can you see how one person with conviction could transgress God's will, but another person without the conviction be innocent?

Think about it. You are not convicted by God to keep Sabbath. The believer right next to you is convicted to keep Sabbath. If both profane sabbath, which one has disobeyed God?

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 07:01 PM
So then it is my response to abide in what He teaches me. To not aibide in what He teaches me would be...disobedience?

Perhaps He's taught you something He hasn't choose to teach me. How could I abide in something He hasn't revealed to me? Would I be disobedient or just ignorant?

Can you see how one person with conviction could transgress God's will, but another person without the conviction be innocent?

Think about it. You are not convicted by God to keep Sabbath. The believer right next to you is convicted to keep Sabbath. If both profane sabbath, which one has disobeyed God?

Flawless logic. I agree with your point here. But we come here to find the truth. What is the truth? That is why we come to this forum. We should not be seeking the truth as long as no one offends me...., we should seek the truth passionately, even when it hurts. Because there is a reward at the end...

Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Shalom

keck553
Jun 21st 2011, 07:08 PM
Flawless logic. I agree with your point here. But we come here to find the truth. What is the truth? That is why we come to this forum. We should not be seeking the truth as long as no one offends me...., we should seek the truth passionately, even when it hurts. Because there is a reward at the end...

Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Shalom

So when we come here and lay our testimony and faith out for all to see, we really can't cry out "persecution," to an opposing view, can we?

I think one of the greatest blessings God can give us in sanctification is when we are disallusioned. And yes, it hurts.

ChristianIssues
Jun 21st 2011, 09:32 PM
I hate being a smoker and I've tried to quit...

Hello Realist1981,

I suffered for years trying to quit. Rather than put a long post there, you can read of my agony at
http://www.christianissues.biz/thepowerofsin.html

Hope that helps.

God bless,
Mick

NHL Fever
Jun 21st 2011, 09:44 PM
That still doesnt clear anything up, in that case we should all wear mask's, not do anything that can hinder our physical ability in any form of damage or hinderage, eat our foods through a blender and have it scientifically checked prior to make sure it is clean of all bacterial damage that may be within...........how about we just have faith?
I can honestly tell you i smoke, i can probably out physically endure most people, which currently I dont know how that will serve for the cause of Christ, not saying it cant.

Know what i mean? Were setting an impossible presedence instead of just having faith in God, did a viper not strike Paul and it did nothing, infact he didnt even shrug about it, the men did, but he didnt, Paul had great faith. I have great faith that smoking does not affect my faith towards God, nor does it hinder me in my daily walk any less than my daily walk already contains, and if such a hinderance did partake in my life, your right, i dont care, because i dont belong here, i am the Lords i belong with Him and He is the presedence as to when I go to sleep or am gathered to Him. What is this world to me? What are the things of this world? they are nothing, but i remain to serve my Lord and in doing so i would not do something in the presence of a brethren that would cause him to stumble if i am aware of it and that is where my faith is drawn at a line, because i will stop that "indulgance" out of love for my brethren and to not destroy the work of God.

It's not about an impossible precedent, its about caring for and using what God has given you to the best of your ability because it honors the Lord. Harming yourself is not any kind of sacrifice, the harm is not for the glory of God, its just for the immediate pleasure and indulgence of the self (smoking, eating habits etc). This could not be more different that what Paul is talking about. Dying to the self means denying the self, not indulging the self until it kills you. The fact that this comparison is honestly made, is a very sad commentary on our modern, self-oriented consumption-based culture.

You may have great faith, but that's not the reason you smoke. You smoke because you like it, it serves physical need you have, or you are addicted. But it harms you, puts you at risk for cancer, and puts people you smoke at risk as well which is indisputably proven. Try quitting, that's what requires dependence of God. If you don't care about the effect on your body because you are not of this world, you could just stop looking both ways when you cross the street as well, its the same logic. It's amazing to me how often we try to work scripture to fit into the stuff we just want to have, or do.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 09:44 PM
It isnt, thats what your not understanding, your incorprating it as being veiwed by all other people and God as "bad" when as it is said, its not what you take in that defiles, but what comes out, because it is from the heart.

You're extrapolating way too much from that verse. In the context Jesus was talking about obeying the vain traditions of men -- religious traditions that placed great emphasis on outward rituals, such as washing the hands before eating. The Legalists of Christ's day had little regard for true religion which has to do with keeping one's heart clean, for example.


Your placing a stigma on smoking because you think all others will veiw it as bad, now i can tell you right now why some people who dont smoke dont like it, they dont like the smell and they believe it kills them more than most other things.
Both of those are personal prefrences, some people smell bad, naturally, may things smell terrible, pretty much everything kills you, tomorrow kills you more than today (time), the air you breath kills you, the food you eat, the water you drink, the mode of transportation, walking on unsafe grounds kills you, everything can physically kill you.

All bad analogies as pointed out previously. Air, water and food are necessities of life. Are addictions by choice necessities of life? How can being enslaved to something be good? How does feeding the addiction around children provide a good role model for them? How does an addiction glorify God?


No actually it isnt weak, its truth, but the prefrence is greater, all still kill you, the act of eating and drinking can kill you (choking), not to mention you can be poisined and are slowly poisined in all 3.

No, it is weak. Very weak! Addictions are not necessities. We must eat to live. We must drink to live. We must breathe air to live? Are you saying we must be addicted to substances in order to live?


Romans 14:14-23:
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Badly misapplied scripture. Paul is talking about food and drink, not addictions to drugs or any other substances.


Matt 15:11
It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Also misapplied because Jesus was correcting serious errors regarding religious traditions of men that emphasized external rituals that also involved food.


So how does smoking not relate to foods in this exact same area? Whats the difference besides personal preference?

The difference is very simple. Addictive substances don't equate with food. Also, addictive substances aren't necessary to maintain life, whereas food is. You're comparing apples to onions. Taking your line of reasoning to the logical conclusion, one could profess to be a Christian and be a full time doper, let's say addicted to marijuana in state where it's legal to smoke. Or one could profess to be a Christian and get hooked up with a sympathetic doctor who will keep him well supplied with legal substances that will keep him high 24/7, etc., etc.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 09:47 PM
No, because it has nothing to do with what comes forth from the heart. For smoking does not cause a person to have evil thoughts, aduteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: which are the things that do corrupt the temple of God.

Everything we do is an heart issue. For example, why do people smoke?

Rufus

NHL Fever
Jun 21st 2011, 09:51 PM
How can being enslaved to something be good? How does feeding the addiction around children provide a good role model for them? How does an addiction glorify God?

So true, and needs repeating. Some people are addicted to crack, or to sex, or to cutting themselves. But we are very good at explaining how my addiction (food, tobacco, tv ,video games, sports being lazy, etc etc) is never as bad as yours. The bottom line is that if you are resistant to giving something up that is nothing more that personal preference or leisure, it probably means it WILL be a stumbling block in your life. Just gives the devil more tools to use against you if not now, in the future.

In the future, when almost nobody in the modern world smokes, the idea will fly easily in the Christian world that hurting your body is hurting what God has given you, because this idea is soundly biblical. But today because our western values of doing whatever the heck we want are so important to us, its a tough pill to swallow.

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 09:52 PM
I much rather surround myself with smokers than self righteouss people.

Shalom[/SIZE]

Would it not be better to immerse yourself in the Word to search honestly to see if any biblical principles to any behavior and then to judge in righteous and with all spiritual discernment?

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 09:54 PM
Greetings Realist, Having been caught in the grips of nicotine addiction myself, I understand the highs and the lows of trying to quit. I pray that the Lord will help you overcome. I had to just bring a little more hope to your post, by saying there are many people like myself, who with the help from the Lord, have truly quit. I haven't had the slightest interest in nicotine for over 14 years, praise God! I have lived through all the usual triggers ( mines were usually stress related) and I honestly say the thought of smoking has never entered my mind! The Lord is able, for we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us! Don't give up, breakthrough may be nearer than you think! :)

blessings to you :hug:

Would it be getting too personal if I asked, what motivated you primarily to finally want to quit?

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 10:02 PM
Would it not be better to immerse yourself in the Word to search honestly to see if any biblical principles to any behavior and then to judge in righteous and with all spiritual discernment?

Rufus

I have, that is the conclusion I got, after reading the gospels over X number of times. Didn't Jesus rather surround himself with grateful sinners than the pharisees? Jesus was happy around sinners, but the self righteous got on his nerves.

When do we see Jesus screaming at prostitutes or publicans?


Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

He only talked like that to the self righteouss.

Shalom

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 10:02 PM
So true, and needs repeating. Some people are addicted to crack, or to sex, or to cutting themselves. But we are very good at explaining how my addiction (food, tobacco, tv ,video games, sports being lazy, etc etc) is never as bad as yours. The bottom line is that if you are resistant to giving something up that is nothing more that personal preference or leisure, it probably means it WILL be a stumbling block in your life. Just gives the devil more tools to use against you if not now, in the future.

In the future, when almost nobody in the modern world smokes, the idea will fly easily in the Christian world that hurting your body is hurting what God has given you, because this idea is soundly biblical. But today because our western values of doing whatever the heck we want are so important to us, its a tough pill to swallow.

And the really sad thing is that even Christians -- even true born again believers -- can easily deceive themselves into believing that something is good when it is really evil. They will rationalize a behavior until the cows come home. I have already touched on several principles that an honest Christian should serious consider in the Word. And I was only scratching the surface! There are several more I could easily think of, also.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 21st 2011, 10:04 PM
I have, that is the conclusion I got, after reading the gospels over X number of times. Didn't Jesus rather surround himself with grateful sinners than the pharisees? Jesus was happy around sinners, but the self righteous got on his nerves.

When do we see Jesus screaming at prostitutes or publicans?


Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

He only talked like that to the self righteouss.

Shalom

Why limit yourself to only the gospels? All scripture is profitable for teaching, is it not?

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 10:07 PM
Absolutely no one here is saying that smoking is good. No one is saying smoking is wise. The issue here is, Is it a sin? But that is how people on the wrong side of the doctrine argue doctrine... i.e., by proclaiming that we said something we never said (like ...that smoking is good, when we never said that). That is called, falsely accusing our brothers. Again, let me say it again. I much rather surround myself by smokers than people that would falsely accuse others. The smoke of their self righteousness really irritates something in me.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 10:14 PM
Why limit yourself to only the gospels? All scripture is profitable for teaching, is it not?

Rufus

It is written: Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Why assume the worse, when you can assume the best? I never said I limited myself to the gospels. I said I read the gospels. Ask around, I have read some chapters outside the gospels.

Peace

NHL Fever
Jun 21st 2011, 10:16 PM
Absolutely no one here is saying that smoking is good. No one is saying smoking is wise. The issue here is, Is it a sin? But that is how people on the wrong side of the doctrine argue doctrine... i.e., by proclaiming that we said something we never said (like ...that smoking is good, when we never said that). That is called, falsely accusing our brothers. Again, let me say it again. I much rather surround myself by smokers than people that would falsely accuse others. The smoke of their self righteousness really irritates something in me.

Peace

You shouldn't judge people for being self-righteous, that would make you self-righteous.

It comes down to the heart. Today we know the damage smoking causes ourselves and our loved ones. The consequent most self-sacrificing, others-centered position is obvious.
If someone came here and criticized people for letting their kids play on the interstate, they would not be told to stop being self-righteous. But because of cultural attitudes and because it gives self-pleasure to smoke, it is viewed differently.

ChristianIssues
Jun 21st 2011, 10:17 PM
Absolutely no one here is saying that smoking is good. No one is saying smoking is wise. The issue here is, Is it a sin?

Amen! The reason I wrote the article is because a Malawian Pastor told me that 'every' Christian in Malawi believes that smoking will send a person to hell. There is absolutely no clear cut proof of it and he was shocked when I challenged him on the matter.

I smoked for 30 years and went through hell on earth trying to quit. The Lord finally delivered me. I was either too weak or didn't have the self-control or whatever, but the Lord did it for me. He has no favourites and can do it for you smokers also. I wrote about it in an article I call The Power Of Sin. It is at http://www.christianissues.biz/thepowerofsin.html

God bless,
Mick

Servant89
Jun 21st 2011, 10:36 PM
You shouldn't judge people for being self-righteous, that would make you self-righteous.

It comes down to the heart. Today we know the damage smoking causes ourselves and our loved ones. The consequent most self-sacrificing, others-centered position is obvious.
If someone came here and criticized people for letting their kids play on the interstate, they would not be told to stop being self-righteous. But because of cultural attitudes and because it gives self-pleasure to smoke, it is viewed differently.

And that is a very good point, excellent point. I stand corrected. I am self righteouss indeed. I hope you have a good day.

Peace!

mattlad22
Jun 21st 2011, 10:39 PM
You're extrapolating way too much from that verse. In the context Jesus was talking about obeying the vain traditions of men -- religious traditions that placed great emphasis on outward rituals, such as washing the hands before eating. The Legalists of Christ's day had little regard for true religion which has to do with keeping one's heart clean, for example.



All bad analogies as pointed out previously. Air, water and food are necessities of life. Are addictions by choice necessities of life? How can being enslaved to something be good? How does feeding the addiction around children provide a good role model for them? How does an addiction glorify God?



No, it is weak. Very weak! Addictions are not necessities. We must eat to live. We must drink to live. We must breathe air to live? Are you saying we must be addicted to substances in order to live?



Badly misapplied scripture. Paul is talking about food and drink, not addictions to drugs or any other substances.



Also misapplied because Jesus was correcting serious errors regarding religious traditions of men that emphasized external rituals that also involved food.



The difference is very simple. Addictive substances don't equate with food. Also, addictive substances aren't necessary to maintain life, whereas food is. You're comparing apples to onions. Taking your line of reasoning to the logical conclusion, one could profess to be a Christian and be a full time doper, let's say addicted to marijuana in state where it's legal to smoke. Or one could profess to be a Christian and get hooked up with a sympathetic doctor who will keep him well supplied with legal substances that will keep him high 24/7, etc., etc.

Rufus

You missed the entire point of the post and scriptures and also applied your own understanding to the word of God.
Nothing, absolutely nothing is unclean of itself through the Lord, your faith shows that you dont believe that smoking is clean through the Lord Jesus Christ, that is your faith and i am not saying that for any other purpose than the clarity you display in your post's, you dont like people who smoke, you dont because you think smoking is unclean, but i tell you through my faith I KNOW that nothing from the outside defiles me but what comes from my inwardly outwards, do drugs/alchohol (like actual drugs/alchohol that change your thinking structure and your body capable functions) affect what comes out, yes it does, can it be managed? yes it can, i can easily drink a few beers or some rye ext and if the Lord leads me to prayer or a word, I speak it or i do it.

Smoking doesnt even affect your body in the same manner as pot or alchohol, for those who dont smoke, yeah some get a small headrush sometimes, (breath really fast for 30 secs deep and fast, lay down and get back up quickly, got a head rush?)
Now as i said, because you think it is bad, as if you were a vegetarian who thinks eating meat is bad, i would not smoke around you as it obviously offends you and your fruit displays your heart so dont tell me your not actually offended, I know you are through your post's. You dont like cigarettes and you dont like people who do smoke them, you dont have to like cigarrettes but refrain from how you feel about others because they do smoke, hypocrite.

I'm going to continue to smoke and my faith tells me theres nothing wrong with it, but to keep peace i would throw away, dispose of my cigarrette around another who displays unafection towards it, its doesnt mean its wrong, but i would be in the wrong to ignore this persons request, they could stumble and i could stumble in arrogance, so to keep peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit i would put it out, or refrain around them, but if i am not around someone whos faith determines it is bad, im going to continue to smoke because i know nothing that enters the body defiles it.

Now if you want to bring in the reasoning is science says smoking is bad through studies, guess what they say snake venom can kill you too, seems Paul had no probem with the outwardly coming inwardly through the Lord Jesus Christ, man of great faith through the Lord.

The exact same applies for food, as per the scriptures posted. The exact same method to bring peace applies also.

Rufus
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:06 AM
You missed the entire point of the post and scriptures and also applied your own understanding to the word of God.
Nothing, absolutely nothing is unclean of itself through the Lord, your faith shows that you dont believe that smoking is clean through the Lord Jesus Christ, that is your faith and i am not saying that for any other purpose than the clarity you display in your post's, you dont like people who smoke, you dont because you think smoking is unclean, but i tell you through my faith I KNOW that nothing from the outside defiles me but what comes from my inwardly outwards, do drugs/alchohol (like actual drugs/alchohol that change your thinking structure and your body capable functions) affect what comes out, yes it does, can it be managed? yes it can, i can easily drink a few beers or some rye ext and if the Lord leads me to prayer or a word, I speak it or i do it.

Smoking doesnt even affect your body in the same manner as pot or alchohol, for those who dont smoke, yeah some get a small headrush sometimes, (breath really fast for 30 secs deep and fast, lay down and get back up quickly, got a head rush?)
Now as i said, because you think it is bad, as if you were a vegetarian who thinks eating meat is bad, i would not smoke around you as it obviously offends you and your fruit displays your heart so dont tell me your not actually offended, I know you are through your post's. You dont like cigarettes and you dont like people who do smoke them, you dont have to like cigarrettes but refrain from how you feel about others because they do smoke, hypocrite.

I'm going to continue to smoke and my faith tells me theres nothing wrong with it, but to keep peace i would throw away, dispose of my cigarrette around another who displays unafection towards it, its doesnt mean its wrong, but i would be in the wrong to ignore this persons request, they could stumble and i could stumble in arrogance, so to keep peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit i would put it out, or refrain around them, but if i am not around someone whos faith determines it is bad, im going to continue to smoke because i know nothing that enters the body defiles it.

Now if you want to bring in the reasoning is science says smoking is bad through studies, guess what they say snake venom can kill you too, seems Paul had no probem with the outwardly coming inwardly through the Lord Jesus Christ, man of great faith through the Lord.

The exact same applies for food, as per the scriptures posted. The exact same method to bring peace applies also.

My faith comes from the bible. My faith is based on the teaching of the sacred scriptures. "All scripture is profitable for teaching..." Yes, smoking to me is "unclean" because there's nothing good in it. And when there's nothing good in a behavior, then that means it's evil You have yet to answer any of my questions pertaining to why you think having a drug addiction is good. 'Can you tell me why a drug addiction is a fruitful deed of the Light? Can you tell me how a drug addiction can be good, while it tramples underfoot a fruit of the Spirit called "self-control"? Can you tell me how having a drug addiction is consistent with the command to "cling to what is good"? Can you tell me how a drug addiction is consistent with the command to abstain even from the mere appearance of evil? Can you tell me how you came to approve the excellence of a drug addiction in all real knowledge and discernment?

Also, why do you shift this conversation to me personally? You said above about me, that "you don't like people who smoke"..., trying to cast aspersion upon my character and question my motives for even posting here. (Has your smoking habit given you such keen insights into people's hearts?) The question was asked on the thread, so I take it that I have the same posting privileges as everyone else and can participate by offering my insights into scripture about why I think a thing is right or wrong. But I suppose if I come down on the wrong side of the issue from your perspective, then it's time to deflect arguing the issue based on its merits and shift the conversation to personal remarks and innuendos?

Also, some people who twist the teaching of Jesus on what defiles a man can take their reasoning to its logical end and justify all manner of drug abuse. There are indeed churches in the country (and all over the world for that matter) who believe marijuana is a "sacrament", for example, that believers should partake in often -- in fact, religiously, if you will. I have also known professing Christians who have justified hard drug abuse by appealing to the same scriptures you have.

If you wish to continue this exchange, please keep your personal assessments of my motives to yourself. I'll be happy to discuss the merits of a drug addiction in light of scriptural principles, but that's all.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:14 AM
Absolutely no one here is saying that smoking is good.

Then if it's not good, it must be evil; for the essence of evil is the absence of good. Therefore, why would you want to participate in the "unfruitful deeds of darkness"? Are not Christians supposed to be children of Light?

Eph 5:8-12
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
NASB

How can a behavior that is not good be pleasing to the Lord?

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:15 AM
My faith comes from the bible. My faith is based on the teaching of the sacred scriptures. "All scripture is profitable to teaching..." Yes, smoking to me is "unclean" because there's nothing good in it. And when there's nothing good in a behavior, then that means it's evil You have yet to answer any of my questions pertaining to why you think having a drug addiction is good. 'Can you tell me why a drug addiction is a fruitful deed of the Light? Can you tell me how a drug addiction can be good, while it tramples underfoot a fruit of the Spirit called "self-control"? Can you tell me how having a drug addiction is consistent with the command to "cling to what is good"? Can you tell me how a drug addiction is consistent with the command to abstain even from the mere appearance of evil? Can you tell me how you came to approve the excellence of a drug addiction in all real knowledge and discernment?

Also, why do you shift this conversation to me personally? You said above about me, that "you don't like people who smoke"..., trying to cast aspersion upon my character and question my motives for even posting here. (Has your smoking habit given you such keen insights into people's hearts?) The question was asked on the thread, so I take it that I have the same posting privileges as everyone else and can participate by offering my insights into scripture about why I think a thing is right or wrong. But I suppose if I come down on the wrong side of the issue from your perspective, then it's time to deflect arguing the issue based on its merits and shift the conversation to personal remarks?

Also, some people who twist the teaching of Jesus on what defiles a man can take their reasoning to its logical end and justify all manner of drug abuse. There are indeed churches in the country (and all over the world for that matter) who believe marijuana is a "sacrament", for example, that believers should partake in often -- in fact, religiously, if you will. I have also known professing Christians who have justified hard drug abuse by appealing to the same scriptures you have.

If you wish to continue this exchange, please keep your personal assessments of my motives to yourself. I'll be happy to discuss the merits of a drug addiction in light of scriptural principles, but that's all.

Rufus

Ive told you i dont think it is a drug addiction. You do. Now you will say, why dont you quit? and ill say, because i dont want to, i smoke, and then you'll say in your heart pfffft and that conversation will profit nothing.

I've addressed everything im going to regarding the isue, it is not a sin, it is prefered and not prefered by all different people as is food. My faith is as ive been saying and yours is as you've been saying, i have no problem with you saying it isnt right, but your self-righteousness about it while it is said all things are clean through the Lord and that it isnt what goes into the body that defiles it but what comes out from the inward body in the Word would correct your reasoning, i understand and have stated on several occasions exactly what i would do in your presence, yet you continue to say it is unpure, unclean and wrong, yet my faith through scripture confirms it is indeed not for me through the Lord.

Your trying to change my faith, while i am telling you dont, you have no right through the Word of God and that i would serve you by not doing so in your presence, yet will you serve me?

Servant89
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:21 AM
Then if it's not good, it must be evil; for the essence of evil is the absence of good. Therefore, why would you want to participate in the "unfruitful deeds of darkness"? Are not Christians supposed to be children of Light?

Eph 5:8-12
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
NASB

How can a behavior that is not good be pleasing to the Lord?

Rufus




Are you ready to add to the Bible? Good luck with that.

Eating with unwashed hands brings cholera to third world countries. It brings many diseases. Yet Jesus proclaimed it was not a sin to eat with unwashed hands. Sin, by definition is breaking of God's law.

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Is eating something with germs a sin?

Is farting a sin?

Is getting into an accident (which is not good) a sin?

Peace

Rufus
Jun 22nd 2011, 02:00 AM
Are you ready to add to the Bible? Good luck with that.

Eating with unwashed hands brings cholera to third world countries. It brings many diseases. Yet Jesus proclaimed it was not a sin to eat with unwashed hands. Sin, by definition is breaking of God's law.

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Is eating something with germs a sin?

Is farting a sin?

Is getting into an accident (which is not good) a sin?

Peace

And we're under the Law of Christ, don't you know?

1 Cor 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ,
NASB


And why do you refuse to address your behavior as a drug addiction and quit comparing it to eating dirty food or food with dirty hands, fingers, feet, toes, or whatever? You have already admitted that "smoking" is not good; therefore, it must be evil. There's no behavior in between good or evil. So how does that square with the Ephesians passage I quoted? Why do you participate in an unfruitful deed of darkness? Is participating in such deeds pleasing to God? Does it glorify God?

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 22nd 2011, 02:15 AM
Ive told you i dont think it is a drug addiction. You do. Now you will say, why dont you quit? and ill say, because i dont want to, i smoke, and then you'll say in your heart pfffft and that conversation will profit nothing.

I've addressed everything im going to regarding the isue, it is not a sin, it is prefered and not prefered by all different people as is food. My faith is as ive been saying and yours is as you've been saying, i have no problem with you saying it isnt right, but your self-righteousness about it while it is said all things are clean through the Lord and that it isnt what goes into the body that defiles it but what comes out from the inward body in the Word would correct your reasoning, i understand and have stated on several occasions exactly what i would do in your presence, yet you continue to say it is unpure, unclean and wrong, yet my faith through scripture confirms it is indeed not for me through the Lord.

Your trying to change my faith, while i am telling you dont, you have no right through the Word of God and that i would serve you by not doing so in your presence, yet will you serve me?

You're in denial in order to justify your habit. It's been scientifically proven that nicotine is a highly addictive psychoactive drug that induces euphoria.

And I'm not out to "change your faith". But by your own admission, you have stated that it's not a good behavior? So, why should I not classify as it impure, unclean and wrong -- in fact, evil since it's not good? Is this what the Lord has called Christians to do: To participate in the unfruitful, evil deeds of darkness? This is what the Christian life is all about? But aren't Christians called to be holy as God is holy? It's no wonder then, we are even commanded to abstain from the mere appearance of evil, let alone actual evil (1Thes 5:22). And why do you hold fast to that which is not good?

1 Thess 5:21-22
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
KJV

mattlad22
Jun 22nd 2011, 02:24 AM
You're in denial in order to justify your habit. It's been scientifically proven that nicotine is a highly addictive psychoactive drug that induces euphoria.

And I'm not out to "change your faith". But by your own admission, you have stated that it's not a good behavior? So, why should I not classify as it impure, unclean and wrong -- in fact, evil since it's not good? Is this what the Lord has called Christians to do: To participate in the unfruitful, evil deeds of darkness? This is what the Christian life is all about? But aren't Christians called to be holy as God is holy? It's no wonder then, we are even commanded to abstain from the mere appearance of evil, let alone actual evil (1Thes 5:22). And why do you hold fast to that which is not good?

1 Thess 5:21-22
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
KJV

No im not in denial, ive told you several times, there is nothing about smoking that defiles me that i take into my body through the Lord Jesus Christ. For you it is different.

Rufus you think it is, i dont, thats what your not understanding, and your trying to imply that i understand it the way you do because my undersatanding is wrong, when it isnt, neither of us are it is simply determined through faith.
You veiw it as evil, unclean and unfruitful.
I dont, i veiw it as nothing is unclean through the Lord and that what enters my mouth does not defile me, what exits doe because it is from the heart.
Eating meat and being a vegetarian applies the same way, celebrating one day for you and me not doing so applies the same way, check out Romans 14.

I'll tell you again, if i was around you rufus i would not smoke so you would not stumble. I would abstain from all appearance of evil, because i would be avoiding causing you to stumble. You dont understand that.

ProDeo
Jun 22nd 2011, 08:31 AM
And the really sad thing is that even Christians -- even true born again believers -- can easily deceive themselves into believing that something is good when it is really evil. They will rationalize a behavior until the cows come home. I have already touched on several principles that an honest Christian should serious consider in the Word. And I was only scratching the surface! There are several more I could easily think of, also.

I have made it a habit before I start a rant on my brothers and sisters to re-read Luke 6:41-42 first.

Servant89
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:21 AM
And we're under the Law of Christ, don't you know?

1 Cor 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ,
NASB


And why do you refuse to address your behavior as a drug addiction and quit comparing it to eating dirty food or food with dirty hands, fingers, feet, toes, or whatever? You have already admitted that "smoking" is not good; therefore, it must be evil. There's no behavior in between good or evil. So how does that square with the Ephesians passage I quoted? Why do you participate in an unfruitful deed of darkness? Is participating in such deeds pleasing to God? Does it glorify God?

Rufus

I stink. I do not please God like you do. I do not glorify God like you do. I am not righteous like you are. But I do not smoke.

I am having a good day today.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:25 AM
And why do you refuse to address your behavior as a drug addiction and quit comparing it to eating dirty food or food with dirty hands, fingers, feet, toes, or whatever? Why do you participate in an unfruitful deed of darkness? Is participating in such deeds pleasing to God? Does it glorify God?
Rufus

And that is the reason why I rather go fishing with smokers ... for they will never talk to me like that.

Peace

RollTide21
Jun 22nd 2011, 12:55 PM
You missed the entire point of the post and scriptures and also applied your own understanding to the word of God.
Nothing, absolutely nothing is unclean of itself through the Lord, your faith shows that you dont believe that smoking is clean through the Lord Jesus Christ, that is your faith and i am not saying that for any other purpose than the clarity you display in your post's, you dont like people who smoke, you dont because you think smoking is unclean, but i tell you through my faith I KNOW that nothing from the outside defiles me but what comes from my inwardly outwards, do drugs/alchohol (like actual drugs/alchohol that change your thinking structure and your body capable functions) affect what comes out, yes it does, can it be managed? yes it can, i can easily drink a few beers or some rye ext and if the Lord leads me to prayer or a word, I speak it or i do it.

Smoking doesnt even affect your body in the same manner as pot or alchohol, for those who dont smoke, yeah some get a small headrush sometimes, (breath really fast for 30 secs deep and fast, lay down and get back up quickly, got a head rush?)
Now as i said, because you think it is bad, as if you were a vegetarian who thinks eating meat is bad, i would not smoke around you as it obviously offends you and your fruit displays your heart so dont tell me your not actually offended, I know you are through your post's. You dont like cigarettes and you dont like people who do smoke them, you dont have to like cigarrettes but refrain from how you feel about others because they do smoke, hypocrite.

I'm going to continue to smoke and my faith tells me theres nothing wrong with it, but to keep peace i would throw away, dispose of my cigarrette around another who displays unafection towards it, its doesnt mean its wrong, but i would be in the wrong to ignore this persons request, they could stumble and i could stumble in arrogance, so to keep peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit i would put it out, or refrain around them, but if i am not around someone whos faith determines it is bad, im going to continue to smoke because i know nothing that enters the body defiles it.

Now if you want to bring in the reasoning is science says smoking is bad through studies, guess what they say snake venom can kill you too, seems Paul had no probem with the outwardly coming inwardly through the Lord Jesus Christ, man of great faith through the Lord.

The exact same applies for food, as per the scriptures posted. The exact same method to bring peace applies also.Here is my take:

The Lord doesn't want you to be addicted to cigarettes. Having an addiction is not in keeping step with the Holy Spirit. It's just not. However, my guess is that He just hasn't seen fit to deal with you on that particular issue just yet. Maybe there is another area of your life He is working on and molding. I don't know. I refuse to believe, however, that God is OK with a smoking addiction.

By the way, I am a current, regular smokeless tobacco user. I'm in the same boat you are. I have grown more Spiritually in the last 2 years than I ever have in my life. The Lord has delivered me from a lot and I have grown more and more mature in the Faith. I've been using snuff the entire time. It's simply not something He has laid on my heart to stop. Well...that's not entirely true, because I do believe in my heart that it is displeasing to Him to have this addiction. But...I think His Will for me is more about growing in Him right now and He is leading me accordingly.

mattlad22
Jun 22nd 2011, 01:54 PM
Here is my take:

The Lord doesn't want you to be addicted to cigarettes. Having an addiction is not in keeping step with the Holy Spirit. It's just not. However, my guess is that He just hasn't seen fit to deal with you on that particular issue just yet. Maybe there is another area of your life He is working on and molding. I don't know. I refuse to believe, however, that God is OK with a smoking addiction.

By the way, I am a current, regular smokeless tobacco user. I'm in the same boat you are. I have grown more Spiritually in the last 2 years than I ever have in my life. The Lord has delivered me from a lot and I have grown more and more mature in the Faith. I've been using snuff the entire time. It's simply not something He has laid on my heart to stop. Well...that's not entirely true, because I do believe in my heart that it is displeasing to Him to have this addiction. But...I think His Will for me is more about growing in Him right now and He is leading me accordingly.

Ok, i know that for you when its time for you to stop you will.
For me as you said it isnt, the only reason i will quit later on is if i go into a relationship with a woman who desires that i do because of reasons those of you who do think its bad have stated, but for me, i %100 know that it isnt displeasing to the Lord because i hold full faith in knowing that it isnt unclean through the Lord Jesus Christ, i knowthat what comes into my mouth and enters my body holds nothing on me to displease the Lord, but what exits my body towards others and myself from my heart is where the Lord is pleased.

RollTide21
Jun 22nd 2011, 02:17 PM
Ok, i know that for you when its time for you to stop you will.
For me as you said it isnt, the only reason i will quit later on is if i go into a relationship with a woman who desires that i do because of reasons those of you who do think its bad have stated, but for me, i %100 know that it isnt displeasing to the Lord because i hold full faith in knowing that it isnt unclean through the Lord Jesus Christ, i knowthat what comes into my mouth and enters my body holds nothing on me to displease the Lord, but what exits my body towards others and myself from my heart is where the Lord is pleased.I won't argue with that. If a person's heart is set on Christ, then that person can have confidence He will lead. If He is leading and you are rationalizing (not saying you are), then it would just be a situation where He'd resort to more drastic measures to get you to follow. Sometimes it takes a hard lesson to get us to follow Him in all things. If that's not something He is seeing fit to convict you of, then I can't presume to speak for Him in your life.

mattlad22
Jun 22nd 2011, 02:40 PM
I won't argue with that. If a person's heart is set on Christ, then that person can have confidence He will lead. If He is leading and you are rationalizing (not saying you are), then it would just be a situation where He'd resort to more drastic measures to get you to follow. Sometimes it takes a hard lesson to get us to follow Him in all things. If that's not something He is seeing fit to convict you of, then I can't presume to speak for Him in your life.

Yes but you dont hear what im saying, there is no need for Him to get me to follow Him more on this, i know Him, i know through the Holy Spirit that through faith in Christ, smoking s not unclean, that what eneters my mouth does not defile me, therefore smoking does not defile me through the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing that needs to change regarding this for me, as we agree, its not the same for all others, and as ive staed, i wold quit if i got into a personal relationship with a woman who doesnt smoke bcause under a constant presence with her i would not desire that it could cause a stumbling block, so i would then quit for her faith in the Lord.
As I would not smoke in say example rufus presence, knowing it could cause a stumbling block for him.
Keep righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

RollTide21
Jun 22nd 2011, 06:48 PM
Yes but you dont hear what im saying, there is no need for Him to get me to follow Him more on this, i know Him, i know through the Holy Spirit that through faith in Christ, smoking s not unclean, that what eneters my mouth does not defile me, therefore smoking does not defile me through the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing that needs to change regarding this for me, as we agree, its not the same for all others, and as ive staed, i wold quit if i got into a personal relationship with a woman who doesnt smoke bcause under a constant presence with her i would not desire that it could cause a stumbling block, so i would then quit for her faith in the Lord.
As I would not smoke in say example rufus presence, knowing it could cause a stumbling block for him.
Keep righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.I know exactly what you are saying. My point was just to say that I can't presume to speak for the Spirit in your life...and if God saw fit to lead you away from cigarettes at some point in the future, you'd know it if you are following Him. I'm not saying He's GOING to do this. I'm saying you'd hear Him if He did.

Besides, you don't know if He has spoken His final Word on that matter. God is ALWAYS leading. He's ALWAYS perfecting us for HIS Will. That He has given you a peace about something now, doesn't mean that it won't change. We follow Him not knowing where He will lead. That's why Jesus told the disciples not to worry about tomorrow and just to focus on the day. God gives us the Grace to face each day. Tomorrow is a new day.

Servant89
Jun 22nd 2011, 09:42 PM
I do not smoke, I do not drink alcohol and I do not drink sodas or juice or anything with sugar (most of the time I just drink water). And none of that makes me righteous. None of that has absolutely anything to do with righteousness. Not smoking does not make me righteous. Not drinking alcohol does not make me righteous. As a matter of fact, twice a year, I drink one glass of wine, just to show God and myself, that I do not practice total abstinence from alcohol (a man-made requirement) and when I do, my wife always says: Why are you doing that? You are not going to finish it, you do not like it. And I say: I think this time I will finish the glass of wine. Last time, I did finish it. Just like not smoking does not make me righteous, smoking does not make any Christian unrighteous. If everyone in Church exchanges our self righteousness sin (totally eliminating their accusing finger and stop thinking they are better than others) for the habit of smoking, we will be in better shape.

The Old Testament is called Old because it is no longer in effect. We tried it and it did not work (Heb 10:1-3). Why would people think that the way to prefect or improve people is by adding one more law to the 613 already in the OT? The solution is to minister life to people instead of ministering death. The law ministers death to us.

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The solution is more Holy Spirit, and less condemnation.

LOVE the smokers ! LOVE THEM!

Peace

Servant89
Jun 22nd 2011, 10:06 PM
Let me tell you a story, a true story. Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 states that there is nothing new under the sun. What a statement! The Bible is an awesome book. Did you know that the same pot hole that Israel fell in, is the same one that many Protestant Churches are in now?

There are two requirements for the priest before they enter the Tabernacle to minister there (OT requirement). This only applies on the day they had to minister in the Tabernacle. Here is the first requirement:

1. Wash hands and feet

Exo 30:19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

The pharisees took the first requirement of washing of the hands, that is only for the Levitical priests, and applies only on the day they had to minister... and they told the people that God wanted all of Israel to practice that requirement all the time before eating. But they knew it was not part of the law, they called it, the tradition of the elders. But it was so engrained in the culture that most people practiced it. They left the other requirement untouched.

Today, we took the other requirement and did the same thing the pharisees did, we told the people that God wanted everyone to follow the other requirement all the time. The other requirement is this:

2. Total abstinence from alcohol: Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Both requirement deals with putting something in our mouth and ingesting it (sort of like smoking).

It is written: 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our (Christian) admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

All that happened so that we get the point.

Shalom

NHL Fever
Jun 22nd 2011, 10:29 PM
Ok, i know that for you when its time for you to stop you will.
For me as you said it isnt, the only reason i will quit later on is if i go into a relationship with a woman who desires that i do because of reasons those of you who do think its bad have stated, but for me, i %100 know that it isnt displeasing to the Lord because i hold full faith in knowing that it isnt unclean through the Lord Jesus Christ, i know that what comes into my mouth and enters my body holds nothing on me to displease the Lord, but what exits my body towards others and myself from my heart is where the Lord is pleased.

You are using that out of context, and if you extend that reasoning to its conclusion, it justifies the use of any substance (heroin, Rx narcotics) for a person as long as they as sure their 'heart' is not defiled. That passage does not deal with the physical consequences of a behavior, there was no issue regarding whether the food was damaging, it was purely a heart issue. This is not the same, this is a proven addictive and damaging substance. This is has nothing to do with smoking is bad because of the religious texts, this is about smoking is bad because it damages what God has bestowed you with. It's absolutely no different than the teenage girl who cuts herself, which could be justified by the exact same logic. No amount of right heart with God changes the fact that smoking will damage your body and put you at risk for cancer. And we have obligations to make good use of all of our 'talents' in life. This is no different than the fact that I have an obligation to be wise with my money and not just go spend it at the casino because I'm not for this world so what does it matter?, etc.

Nobody can know where you stand with God or what he is working on, but if somebody tells you that they enjoy burning themselves or getting a buzz from an OTC med but its really their heart that matters, what will you say?

mattlad22
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:38 PM
You are using that out of context, and if you extend that reasoning to its conclusion, it justifies the use of any substance (heroin, Rx narcotics) for a person as long as they as sure their 'heart' is not defiled. That passage does not deal with the physical consequences of a behavior, there was no issue regarding whether the food was damaging, it was purely a heart issue. This is not the same, this is a proven addictive and damaging substance. This is has nothing to do with smoking is bad because of the religious texts, this is about smoking is bad because it damages what God has bestowed you with. It's absolutely no different than the teenage girl who cuts herself, which could be justified by the exact same logic. No amount of right heart with God changes the fact that smoking will damage your body and put you at risk for cancer. And we have obligations to make good use of all of our 'talents' in life. This is no different than the fact that I have an obligation to be wise with my money and not just go spend it at the casino because I'm not for this world so what does it matter?, etc.

Nobody can know where you stand with God or what he is working on, but if somebody tells you that they enjoy burning themselves or getting a buzz from an OTC med but its really their heart that matters, what will you say?

No it doesnt, smoking does not affect you in the same way those narcotics you mentioned do, those narcotics affect the very way you act.
Smoking doesnt, i dont get high from smoking and im not drunk, theres a difference, in no way shape or form is what i am saying support the use of narcotics or excessive alchohol, which both can affect your very reactions in situations.
Everything you do damages what God has given you in that context, the air you breath, the food you eat, the water you drink, the steps you take.

Everything you speak of in situation is of self-righteousness, who are you to tell another how they spend thier money, have you ever bought a useless electronic? ever spend money on a sports game or a concert?
Exactly what i have been saying from the start, which your not hearing.

Dani H
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:55 PM
Is taking Scripture out of context a sin?

amazzin
Jun 22nd 2011, 11:56 PM
It's not the smoking that is either sinful or addictive. However, it is a proven scientific fact that nicotine is addictive.


No it doesnt, smoking does not affect you in the same way those narcotics you mentioned do, those narcotics affect the very way you act.
Smoking doesnt, i dont get high from smoking and im not drunk, theres a difference, in no way shape or form is what i am saying support the use of narcotics or excessive alchohol, which both can affect your very reactions in situations.
Everything you do damages what God has given you in that context, the air you breath, the food you eat, the water you drink, the steps you take.

Everything you speak of in situation is of self-righteousness, who are you to tell another how they spend thier money, have you ever bought a useless electronic? ever spend money on a sports game or a concert?
Exactly what i have been saying from the start, which your not hearing.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:02 AM
It's not the smoking that is either sinful or addictive. However, it is a proven scientific fact that nicotine is addictive.

Its also scientifically proven that snake venom can poisin or kill you.

amazzin
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:04 AM
Its also scientifically proven that snake venom can poisin or kill you.

Okay, but what does snake poison or any other poison for that matter have to do with the OP?

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:07 AM
Okay, but what does snake poison or any other poison for that matter have to do with the OP?

I dont know, you brought up the addictive part, i replied to you not the Op, the addiction part is because of a chemical property inserted through taking in the tobacco through the smoke, right?
What makes that different from snake venom? its taken into the body and the chemical property is what affects you, yet through faith in Jesus the Christ we know poisin can have 0 affect on a person counterproducive to what science teaches, No?
Paul proved otherwise, right?

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:20 AM
No it doesnt, smoking does not affect you in the same way those narcotics you mentioned do, those narcotics affect the very way you act.
Smoking doesnt, i dont get high from smoking and im not drunk, theres a difference, in no way shape or form is what i am saying support the use of narcotics or excessive alchohol, which both can affect your very reactions in situations.
Everything you do damages what God has given you in that context, the air you breath, the food you eat, the water you drink, the steps you take.

Now we're getting down to the actual issue. You recognize the inherent problem is damaging practices, just not the one you do. The line which defines a 'bad' practice, is just beyond your preferred practice. In reality smoking is far more costly in terms of health care problems, and far more harmful in terms of years lost or quality of life lost than any other practice. It is, by far, the biggest health-care related financial cost of any single lifestyle factor.

Bottom line is that anything can be harmful to some extent. Some are necessary to live (transportation, breathing, eating, etc) and some are not (smoking). To say you are at risk when you breath and so therefore what's the difference with smoking, is like saying you're at risk for being robbed so what's the difference in spending it at the casino.



Everything you speak of in situation is of self-righteousness, who are you to tell another how they spend thier money, have you ever bought a useless electronic? ever spend money on a sports game or a concert?
Exactly what i have been saying from the start, which your not hearing.

None of those things are necessarily harmful, smoking is. I may harm myself in some way physically or spiritually with an electronic or sports event. But I will harm myself physically by smoking.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:23 AM
Now we're getting down to the actual issue. You recognize the inherent problem is damaging practices, just not the one you do. The line which defines a 'bad' practice, is just beyond your preferred practice.



None of those things are necessarily harmful, smoking is.

No smoking is harmful to you because you believe it is.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:30 AM
No smoking is harmful to you because you believe it is.

Not sure if this is serious, but there perhaps no single more well-documented, more thoroughly proven causative link between smoking and disease, than any in all of medical science. I see the effects every single day. In the lung cancer and head and neck cancer clinics, its basically 95% history of smoking.

When you're at the denying its dangerous part of the argument, its leaves reality into irrationality.

amazzin
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:36 AM
I dont know, you brought up the addictive part, i replied to you not the Op, the addiction part is because of a chemical property inserted through taking in the tobacco through the smoke, right?
What makes that different from snake venom? its taken into the body and the chemical property is what affects you, yet through faith in Jesus the Christ we know poisin can have 0 affect on a person counterproducive to what science teaches, No?
Paul proved otherwise, right?
That's extremnely dangerous ground you're walking on. Are you a WoF'er?

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:38 AM
That's extremnely dangerous ground you're walking on. Are you a WoF'er?

I dont even know what that is to be it amazzin lol

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:38 AM
Not sure if this is serious, but there perhaps no single more well-documented, more thoroughly proven causative link between smoking and disease, than any in all of medical science.

When you're at the denying its dangerous part of the argument, its leaves reality into irrationality.

No it doesnt it leaves faith to faith.

You can pull the same statistics out of snake venom yet i can show you through scripture that faith through Christ Jesus throws science out the window.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:40 AM
No it doesnt it leaves faith to faith.

But I guess the narcotic user doesn't have faith, because that harmful practice is......not the one you agree with. If by faith you can overcome snake venom, then by faith you can overcome narcotic over-usage.

I have faith too, I'm going to drive with my eyes closed.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:50 AM
But I guess the narcotic user doesn't have faith, because that harmful practice is......not the one you agree with. If by faith you can overcome snake venom, then by faith you can overcome narcotic over-usage.

I have faith too, I'm going to drive with my eyes closed.

Make fun of faith all you want, thats your faith.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:53 AM
Make fun of faith all you want, thats your faith.

You are suggesting that because of faith, we can willfully and knowingly damage ourselves. Not for the glory of God, not for sacrifice, just for personal preference.

This is not faith. It takes no faith to indulge the flesh. It takes faith to deny the flesh.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:54 AM
You are suggesting that because of faith, we can willfully and knowingly damage ourselves. Not for the glory of God, not for sacrifice, just for personal preference.

This is not faith. What takes faith, is quitting. It takes nothing at all to indulge the flesh.

No im not, im saying through my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ smoking does not damage me, but you wont hear that. So there isnt much more for me to say about it.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:57 AM
No im not, im saying through my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ smoking does not damage me, but you wont hear that. So there isnt much more for me to say about it.

The narcotic user, and the self-cutting person say the same thing. Now what?

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:58 AM
Now for back on topic, is it a sin? No how can it be sin, food, the air you breath, water, physical action can and does damage your physical body, so does smoking based off of all of those understandings, yet the Lord says, what enters the body does not defile a man through the Lord.
So it is not a sin, it is not preferred for many, but it is not a sin.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 12:59 AM
The narcotic user, and the self-cutting person say the same thing. Now what?

The self cutting person is not taking the outward into the inward, there is obviously a heartfelt reason the person who is cutting themselves is doing that for.
Now from that if your going to get hypothetical in personal assumptions of the person who is cutting themselves im afraid our conversation will end.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:05 AM
The self cutting person is not taking the outward into the inward, there is obviously a heartfelt reason the person who is cutting themselves is doing that for.
Now from that if your going to get hypothetical in personal assumptions of the person who is cutting themselves im afraid our conversation will end.

You have just made personal assumption, in assuming they are not 'taking the outward into the inward'.

You cannot explain why damaging yourself with smoking is ok, but damaging yourself in other ways is not. Do you see the irony in the fact that the narcotic user has the EXACT same argument as you? The whole 'I have faith' and everything, works for him too. And his vice won't put him at risk for cancer.

Some behaviors are necessary (air, water, food), some are not (smoking).

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:09 AM
You have just made personal assumption, in assuming they are not 'taking the outward into the inward'.

You cannot explain why damaging yourself with smoking is ok, but damaging yourself in other ways is not.

Some behaviors are necessary (air, water, food), some are not (smoking).

No im not, you said they were cutting themselves, in other words using an object to cut thier outwards.

Smoking you take it into your body, theres a difference, and for people who cut themselves that is an inwardly action performing an outwardly reaction.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:11 AM
You have just made personal assumption, in assuming they are not 'taking the outward into the inward'.

You cannot explain why damaging yourself with smoking is ok, but damaging yourself in other ways is not. Do you see the irony in the fact that the narcotic user has the EXACT same argument as you? The whole 'I have faith' and everything, works for him too. And his vice won't put him at risk for cancer.

Some behaviors are necessary (air, water, food), some are not (smoking).

You can say that about anything.

driving not necessary, but prefered, buying something that isnt necessary but preferred ext.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:13 AM
People use fires to cook thier food, that produces harmful smoke which is ingested the same way as smoking, yet are you telling people they cant cook thier food with flame?
No, because you dont prefer smoking so in your self-righteousness you deem it as wrong above other things which perform the same effects, i dont through faith in the Lord, but you wont accept that.
I wouldnt smoke near you.

amazzin
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:15 AM
I dont even know what that is to be it amazzin lol

WoF'er means Word of Faith. Are you part of teh word of faith movement?

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:20 AM
WoF'er means Word of Faith. Are you part of teh word of faith movement?

If i am, i had no idea.
Im just Matt as far as i know, i dont belong to a group of anything but the kingdom of God through Christ Jesus.
Im not even going to bother looking that up amazzin, the word of faith movement.

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:49 AM
Yes but you dont hear what im saying, there is no need for Him to get me to follow Him more on this, i know Him, i know through the Holy Spirit that through faith in Christ, smoking s not unclean, that what eneters my mouth does not defile me, therefore smoking does not defile me through the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing that needs to change regarding this for me, as we agree, its not the same for all others, and as ive staed, i wold quit if i got into a personal relationship with a woman who doesnt smoke bcause under a constant presence with her i would not desire that it could cause a stumbling block, so i would then quit for her faith in the Lord.
As I would not smoke in say example rufus presence, knowing it could cause a stumbling block for him.
Keep righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

No, I wouldn't be around you while you're smoking due to the foul smell. It would have nothing to do with any "stumbling block".

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:53 AM
I do not smoke, I do not drink alcohol and I do not drink sodas or juice or anything with sugar (most of the time I just drink water). And none of that makes me righteous. None of that has absolutely anything to do with righteousness. Not smoking does not make me righteous. Not drinking alcohol does not make me righteous. As a matter of fact, twice a year, I drink one glass of wine, just to show God and myself, that I do not practice total abstinence from alcohol (a man-made requirement) and when I do, my wife always says: Why are you doing that? You are not going to finish it, you do not like it. And I say: I think this time I will finish the glass of wine. Last time, I did finish it. Just like not smoking does not make me righteous, smoking does not make any Christian unrighteous. If everyone in Church exchanges our self righteousness sin (totally eliminating their accusing finger and stop thinking they are better than others) for the habit of smoking, we will be in better shape.

The Old Testament is called Old because it is no longer in effect. We tried it and it did not work (Heb 10:1-3). Why would people think that the way to prefect or improve people is by adding one more law to the 613 already in the OT? The solution is to minister life to people instead of ministering death. The law ministers death to us.

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The solution is more Holy Spirit, and less condemnation.

LOVE the smokers ! LOVE THEM!

Peace

Where does the Word of God fit in with all this Holy Spirit "solution"? Are you telling us the Holy Spirit is the only rule of life we have under the New Covenant? What about the Word that is inspired by the same Holy Spirit?

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:07 AM
No, I wouldn't be around you while you're smoking due to the foul smell. Rufus

Is 65:5 Those which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel (and smells good), and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment (and smoking);
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the good clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That is called, filtering the mosquito and swallowing the camel.

Rejecting people because of their habit ??? And the amazing thing to me, is that they are not ashamed of that, they are proud, that is amazing to me.

I am glad Jesus would not let the smell of tobacco keeping him afar from us, not even the pain of the cross could keep him away from saving us.

WOW !

Servant89
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:11 AM
Where does the Word of God fit in with all this Holy Spirit "solution"? Are you telling us the Holy Spirit is the only rule of life we have under the New Covenant? What about the Word that is inspired by the same Holy Spirit?

Rufus

You really have to do something about that imagination of yours ... It really goes wild...

Peace

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:15 AM
No it doesnt, smoking does not affect you in the same way those narcotics you mentioned do, those narcotics affect the very way you act.
Smoking doesnt, i dont get high from smoking and im not drunk, theres a difference, in no way shape or form is what i am saying support the use of narcotics or excessive alchohol, which both can affect your very reactions in situations.

So what? Some other professing Christian can also grossly misinterpret your "nothing that goes in defiles me" passages and reach the exact same conclusion you have about cigarettes. I have already stated that there are churches out there who administer marijuana as a sacrament for the very same reason you smoke ciggys.

Furthermore nicotine does alter moods and behavior:

Nicotine meets the criteria of a highly addictive drug. Nicotine is a potent psychoactive drug that induces euphoria, serves as a reinforcer of its use, and leads to nicotine withdrawal syndrome when it is absent. As an addictive drug, nicotine has 2 very potent issues: it is a stimulant and it is also a depressant. For example, one smoker talked too lovingly about her cigarettes who are called her "best friend." They got her going in the morning, and they chilled her out during the day.

Nicotine in cigarette smoke affects mood and performance and is the source of addiction to tobacco. While cigarette manufacturers have publicly denied that nicotine is an addictive drug, recent documents disclose that they have known and used the addictive properties of nicotine since the 1950s. Unfortunately, this misinformation led to the false belief that nicotine use is a habit and not an addiction.

(I don't think I'm allowed to post links, so I haven't. If you want it, PM me.)

Did you catch that? Nicotine is a both a stimulant and depressant. Therefore, it alters moods.


]Everything you do damages what God has given you in that context, the air you breath, the food you eat, the water you drink, the steps you take.

But not everything we do is is evil, such as breathing air, drinking tap water, etc.. You have already admitted that smoking isn't good, so why participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness? What would your answer be: Because I want to participate in the dissipation and pleasures of the world?


Everything you speak of in situation is of self-righteousness, who are you to tell another how they spend thier money, have you ever bought a useless electronic? ever spend money on a sports game or a concert?
Exactly what i have been saying from the start, which your not hearing.

Isn't it you who is waxing self-righteous? You come off as having all the answers. You do not receive admonition from the brethren very well at all. In fact, you're quite defensive and close-minded.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:20 AM
Is taking Scripture out of context a sin?

That's an excellent question. I say it is because people who do that are either adding or subtracting to the Word. And that's a no-no. We're commanded to handle the scriptures accurately (2Tim 2:15), not in just any wllly-nilly fashion. It's incumbent upon all truth-seekers to approach the Word humbly and prayerfully.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:24 AM
I dont know, you brought up the addictive part, i replied to you not the Op, the addiction part is because of a chemical property inserted through taking in the tobacco through the smoke, right?
What makes that different from snake venom? its taken into the body and the chemical property is what affects you, yet through faith in Jesus the Christ we know poisin can have 0 affect on a person counterproducive to what science teaches, No?
Paul proved otherwise, right?

Are you serious? Paul survived because of a miracle. If you're such a big believer in that passage, why don't you go out and get yourself bit by rattler or cobra or whatever? Make sure no one is around for a 100 miles or so also, okay?

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:29 AM
So what? Some other professing Christian can also grossly misinterpret your "nothing that goes in defiles me" passages and reach the exact same conclusion you have about cigarettes. I have already stated that there are churches out there who administer marijuana as a sacrament for the very same reason you smoke ciggys.

Furthermore nicotine does alter moods and behavior:

Nicotine meets the criteria of a highly addictive drug. Nicotine is a potent psychoactive drug that induces euphoria, serves as a reinforcer of its use, and leads to nicotine withdrawal syndrome when it is absent. As an addictive drug, nicotine has 2 very potent issues: it is a stimulant and it is also a depressant. For example, one smoker talked too lovingly about her cigarettes who are called her "best friend." They got her going in the morning, and they chilled her out during the day.

Nicotine in cigarette smoke affects mood and performance and is the source of addiction to tobacco. While cigarette manufacturers have publicly denied that nicotine is an addictive drug, recent documents disclose that they have known and used the addictive properties of nicotine since the 1950s. Unfortunately, this misinformation led to the false belief that nicotine use is a habit and not an addiction.

(I don't think I'm allowed to post links, so I haven't. If you want it, PM me.)

Did you catch that? Nicotine is a both a stimulant and depressant. Therefore, it alters moods.



But not everything we do is is evil, such as breathing air, drinking tap water, etc.. You have already admitted that smoking isn't good, so why participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness? What would your answer be: Because I want to participate in the dissipation and pleasures of the world?



Isn't it you who is waxing self-righteous? You come off as having all the answers. You do not receive admonition from the brethren very well at all. In fact, you're quite defensive and close-minded.

Rufus

Really? considering im the one speaking of an open mind, you would veiw it as close-minded, interesting.

Our conversation together about this is over, your not capable of doing such a thing in love, peace and joy, thats represented well, so im going to walk away from you, you dont read my post's, you dont regard what im saying at all and your continueing in circles, thiers no production in this, so as of now i will not continue in this topic with you.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:30 AM
Are you serious? Paul survived because of a miracle. If you're such a big believer in that passage, why don't you go out and get yourself bit by rattler or cobra or whatever? Make sure no one is around for a 100 miles or so also, okay?

Rufus

A miracle through what Rufus?, a miracl through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Your fruit is evident by your words.

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:36 AM
Is 65:5 Those which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel (and smells good), and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment (and smoking);
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the good clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That is called, filtering the mosquito and swallowing the camel.

Rejecting people because of their habit ??? And the amazing thing to me, is that they are not ashamed of that, they are proud, that is amazing to me.

I am glad Jesus would not let the smell of tobacco keeping him afar from us, not even the pain of the cross could keep him away from saving us.

WOW !

Who said I would reject Matt? I said that I would not have him around me while he's smoking, certainly nowhere indoors in any close area. The smell of the smoke is utterly disgusting and foul. I neither want to breathe it in or have the smoke stick to my clothes or hair even. Now after he finished getting all puffed out, then all would be good again.

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:55 AM
Really? considering im the one speaking of an open mind, you would veiw it as close-minded, interesting.

Our conversation together about this is over, your not capable of doing such a thing in love, peace and joy, thats represented well, so im going to walk away from you, you dont read my post's, you dont regard what im saying at all and your continueing in circles, thiers no production in this, so as of now i will not continue in this topic with you.

You know what happens with people who have open minds? Their mind is so open they cannot filter out all the worldly garbage that rushes in, and so pollutes any good it may have had in it.

And people who have closed minds are indeed self-righteous; for they need not receive any instruction from anyone, for they have already arrived and their minds are made up.

But there's a third kind of person -- one who has a critical mind. This is the person who searches out matters carefully and with all due diligence, questioning everything and accepting only that which is good and acceptable. The Bereans were such people. I, too, make every effort to have the simple, child-like, humble spirit of a Berean and search things out carefully in the entire counsel of God before reaching any conclusions.

And by the way, I do read your posts. But they don't make much sense. Your attempt at arguing by analogy is quite bad because the logic is so flawed. And the various Gospel texts that you hang your addiction on are grossly misinterpreted. And the last straw that broke the camel's back was when you denied that nicotine is addictive. It's obvious to me, you're so close-minded your mind has closed like a steel trap around your self-destructive, addictive behavior.

And here is something you can buy for without money:

Prov 23:23
3 Buy truth, and do not sell it,
Get wisdom and instruction and understanding.
NASB

Rufus



Rufus

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 02:57 AM
A miracle through what Rufus?, a miracl through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Your fruit is evident by your words.

So...in your church, do you do the snake thingies and people get bitten and stuff and they live to boast of it?

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 03:04 AM
So...in your church, do you do the snake thingies and people get bitten and stuff and they live to boast of it?

Rufus

No they dont boast about it, they praise the Lord in the church i am in and give Him glory.

So now you say i have an open mind, yet before it was a closed mind, and yet either mind is no good for you because i am a smoker and you dont believe me when i say nothing that enters the mouth into the body can defile a man through the Lord Jesus Christ, but what exits the body through the mouth and through action does because it comes from the heart.

I'm sorry rufus, but i can no longer speak with you regarding this, take care.

nzyr
Jun 23rd 2011, 06:51 AM
I believe smoking is a sin. That's one of the reasons I quit many years ago.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

I'm not trying to put a guilt trip on anyone. I just want to remind people to take care of themselves. Remember tobacco is an addictive drug. And it kills about 400,000 Americans every year. Jesus never smoked. And we shouldn't either.

Servant89
Jun 23rd 2011, 01:24 PM
I believe smoking is a sin. That's one of the reasons I quit many years ago.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

I'm not trying to put a guilt trip on anyone. I just want to remind people to take care of themselves. Remember tobacco is an addictive drug. And it kills about 400,000 Americans every year. Jesus never smoked. And we shouldn't either.

Jesus never watched TV or drank coffee either.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 23rd 2011, 04:20 PM
Listen, there is a lot of good stuff that we should not do in certain situations... For example, telling the truth. If telling the truth will hurt them emotionally, maybe we should not do it, if telling the truth is going to get someone in trouble, maybe we should not do it. That deals with the spirit of the law and it is subjective. But when we talk about the letter of the law, that is different. The letter of the law does not negotiate. The letter of the law, makes us guilty regardless of the situation. We could be alone in an island, and it will still make us guilty.

So, using only the letter of the law, picture yourself alone in an island... Is smoking one cigarette a sin?

Show us the verse.

Caffeine is bad for our bodies... Are we Mormons? Because to a Mormon, drinking caffeinated drinks is sin. To me watching tv is addictive and it ruins the moral character showing things so that we covet the things of this world... Are we going to call that a sin too, per the letter of the law?

The people that think smoking is a sin, please tell me, have you ever ordered an "All you can eat" meal? I know I have. Isn't that a sin? Why is it that the sins of others smell bad to us, but our own sins do not smell bad to us? It is like farting.

Peace

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 05:35 PM
No they dont boast about it, they praise the Lord in the church i am in and give Him glory.

So, let me see if I have this right: They don't boast about what, specifically: Handling snakes, getting bitten by them and surviving?


So now you say i have an open mind, yet before it was a closed mind, and yet either mind is no good for you because i am a smoker and you dont believe me when i say nothing that enters the mouth into the body can defile a man through the Lord Jesus Christ, but what exits the body through the mouth and through action does because it comes from the heart.

I'm sorry rufus, but i can no longer speak with you regarding this, take care.

No, I don't believe you; for you have twisted and perverted the meaning of those passage by quoting those out of their contexts. Anything quoted out of context is merely a pretext. You cling to them for dear life, as much as your nicotine addiction clings to you, because they tickle your ears and you mistakenly think they support your behavior, which by your own admission is not good. On the other hand, I can appeal to the full counsel of God to support my spiritual discernment regarding this activity.

And now you unwittingly have condemned yourself again by admitting that what exits the body through the mouth and action defiles a man because it's from the heart. Does not cigarette smoke exit the mouth? Is not smoking itself an activity? Isn't all activity motivated by our inner desires -- desires that proceed from the heart?

When you get that inevitable urge to light up to satisfy your inner cravings, is this not fed by your lusts? And what saith scripture about lusts?

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
NASB

And is not lust a matter of the heart?

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 05:51 PM
So, let me see if I have this right: They don't boast about what, specifically: Handling snakes, getting bitten by them and surviving?



No, I don't believe you; for you have twisted and perverted the meaning of those passage by quoting those out of their contexts. Anything quoted out of context is merely a pretext. You cling to them for dear life, as much as your nicotine addiction clings to you, because they tickle your ears and you mistakenly think they support your behavior, which by your own admission is not good. On the other hand, I can appeal to the full counsel of God to support my spiritual discernment regarding this activity.

And now you unwittingly have condemned yourself again by admitting that what exits the body through the mouth and action defiles a man because it's from the heart. Does not cigarette smoke exit the mouth? Is not smoking itself an activity? Isn't all activity motivated by our inner desires -- desires that proceed from the heart?

When you get that inevitable urge to light up to satisfy your inner cravings, is this not fed by your lusts? And what saith scripture about lusts?

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
NASB

And is not lust a matter of the heart?

Rufus

Indeed that is what i am saying, they do not boast of the glory that the Lord performs, it is not them that the grace is supplied from but of the Lord. Whom they give the glory.

Is lust not acted upon of the body? is it not an act of the heart, is it not the inwardly acting outwardly? Not the outwardly acting inwardly?

Thats ok rufus, you very well have the right to give your opinion.
Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rufus
Jun 23rd 2011, 05:58 PM
Listen, there is a lot of good stuff that we should not do in certain situations... For example, telling the truth. If telling the truth will hurt them emotionally, maybe we should not do it, if telling the truth is going to get someone in trouble, maybe we should not do it. That deals with the spirit of the law and it is subjective. But when we talk about the letter of the law, that is different. The letter of the law does not negotiate. The letter of the law, makes us guilty regardless of the situation. We could be alone in an island, and it will still make us guilty.


Moral Relativism coming from a professing Christian? The church today really is in very bad shape!
Or am I all wet? Maybe scripture is loaded with examples of believers practicing moral relativism, doing what is right in their own eyes and calling it righteous? Can you supply us with a few examples?

[quote]So, using only the letter of the law, picture yourself alone in an island... Is smoking one cigarette a sin?

And island and one cigarette? Huh? You think you're alone, do you? What you do in secret is not known by God? Tell me how some activity that is not inherently good can glorify God who sees all and knows all and will judge all?

[lquote]Show us the verse.

I have with Eph 5:11. And also with 1Thes 5:21; Rom 12:9. Why do you cling to what is evil when this latter verse tells us to abhor evil?


Caffeine is bad for our bodies... Are we Mormons? Because to a Mormon, drinking caffeinated drinks is sin. To me watching tv is addictive and it ruins the moral character showing things so that we covet the things of this world... Are we going to call that a sin too, per the letter of the law?

Highly debatable question about "caffeine". Research has shown that there are also definite benefits to caffeine.

Then you admit in one breath that to you, "tv is addictive and ruins the moral character" and then ask the question is we should call that addiction sin also? Why shouldn't we call any activity that is ruinous to our spiritual life sin? What she we call such activity good or righteous!? :B


The people that think smoking is a sin, please tell me, have you ever ordered an "All you can eat" meal? I know I have. Isn't that a sin? Why is it that the sins of others smell bad to us, but our own sins do not smell bad to us?

Drugs and food again, eh? When have drugs equated to food? Very bad analogy. And furthermore, even if someone orders an "all you can eat" meal, does that mean necessarily that they shovel the food down non-stop in gluttonous fashion? Some of us actually have the fruit of the Spirit in our life known as self-control. What about smokers addicted to nicotine? How much of this fruit do they have?


It is like farting.

Now you liken a drug addiction to a natural bodily function? You truly are desperate and will grasp any any straws, won't you?

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 23rd 2011, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=Servant89;2704792]Listen, there is a lot of good stuff that we should not do in certain situations... For example, telling the truth. If telling the truth will hurt them emotionally, maybe we should not do it, if telling the truth is going to get someone in trouble, maybe we should not do it. That deals with the spirit of the law and it is subjective. But when we talk about the letter of the law, that is different. The letter of the law does not negotiate. The letter of the law, makes us guilty regardless of the situation. We could be alone in an island, and it will still make us guilty.

I have with Eph 5:11. And also with 1Thes 5:21; Rom 12:9. Why do you cling to what is evil when this latter verse tells us to abhor evil?



Highly debatable question about "caffeine". Research has shown that there are also definite benefits to caffeine.

Then you admit in one breath that to you, "tv is addictive and ruins the moral character" and then ask the question is we should call that addiction sin also? Why shouldn't we call any activity that is ruinous to our spiritual life sin? What she we call such activity good or righteous!? :B



Drugs and food again, eh? When have drugs equated to food? Very bad analogy. And furthermore, even if someone orders an "all you can eat" meal, does that mean necessarily that they shovel the food down non-stop in gluttonous fashion? Some of us actually have the fruit of the Spirit in our life known as self-control. What about smokers addicted to nicotine? How much of this fruit do they have?



Now you liken a drug addiction to a natural bodily function? You truly are desperate and will grasp any any straws, won't you?

Rufus

It is all about love. Some are good at it, others... well, ... others are like me, we have problems showing it. Thanks for the feedback.

Peace

Saved7
Jun 23rd 2011, 10:12 PM
IS SMOKING A SIN???? That's an excellent question, one that I have often pondered myself. I mean Paul states that our body is the temple, and while all things may be lawful for me, not all things are expedient...or the way I like to put it... "spiritually edifying". I found that while I smoked cigarettes, I wasn't in as close communion with God as I could have been, in fact it seemed to hinder my walk with Him on a certain level. I didn't want that hindrance, so I quit and it made a difference. So then, if it hinders our walk with Him, is it a sin? If we are putting that thing that hinders us ABOVE our walk with the Lord, then isn't that the equivalent of being double-minded on some level? And we know that Jesus said we cannot serve to masters, we will love one and hate the other, therefore, one could draw the conclusion that maybe in some way it is a sin? How important is it to you? Is it creating a divide between you and God? If so, I would put it in the sin category.

NHL Fever
Jun 23rd 2011, 10:58 PM
You can say that about anything.

driving not necessary, but prefered, buying something that isnt necessary but preferred ext.

You will to no end justify what you want to do, but yet criticize the narcotic user, or perhaps the pot user. There is no way around that issue. Either its ok for both of you, or its not.

The idea of faith as a reason to smoke is bizarre. It's like saying I will watch violent tv all day, but because of faith I won't be harmed. Or saying faith will sustain me so I'll eat this entire pie. It just makes no sense - no faith is required to do those things. The most important issue here is that faith is never coupled with pleasurable activities, its coupled with self-denial activities. Try quitting, that might actually require faith.

mattlad22
Jun 23rd 2011, 11:57 PM
You will to no end justify what you want to do, but yet criticize the narcotic user, or perhaps the pot user. There is no way around that issue. Either its ok for both of you, or its not.

The idea of faith as a reason to smoke is bizarre. It's like saying I will watch violent tv all day, but because of faith I won't be harmed. Or saying faith will sustain me so I'll eat this entire pie. It just makes no sense - no faith is required to do those things. The most important issue here is that faith is never coupled with pleasurable activities, its coupled with self-denial activities. Try quitting, that might actually require faith.

I didnt criticize the narcotic user, ever, in any of my post's i simply showed that narcotics have a very different affect on people, and even morso, a different effect from me to you, you would react differently than i may, even so for the next person.
I showed that smoking does not affect you in the manner that narcotics can and does in its different ways for each individual, so i dont know where you got the idea i was criticizing anyone.

Faith isnt the reason you smoke at all again another reasoning i have no idea why you have come up with, the faith that makes smoking not matter is the the outward taken inward does not defile a man through the Lord, in other words nothing is unclean, however the inward coming outward is what defiles a man, his words and his thoughts and actions, smoking doesnt alter that, Rufus may argue that, but I'm the smoker not him, ive not smoked and ive smoked and there is no difference in my thoughts or my actions wether i smoke or do not smoke and my faith again is nothing is unclean through the Lord, nothing i take in defiles, but what comes out does and smoking does not change my inner, therefore it does not defile me having been taken in from the outward to the stomach (the body, yes lungs being a part of it) the inward.

Thats obviously not the same for some of you, its a stumbling block for you to try and understand it because your faith is your faith, however my faith is not your faith, but to keep peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit i would follow the Word and not smoke around any of you who proclaim displeasure over it.
Problem solved, stop worrying about my (others) faith and regard your own...why do you look to the spec in your brothers eye when there is a plank in your own?
Let me guess took that out of context? Only way that is out of context is if any of you can stand before me and claim manly perfection, that you do nothing wrong at any time on any given day.

Thats what i thought.

Servant89
Jun 24th 2011, 12:00 AM
God described those that teach doctrines that are not in the Bible as people whose heart is far from God and whose worship is in vain. On Palm Sunday all Jerusalem were praising Jesus (Hossana to the King, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord), and that worship was in vain. It was in vain because he stopped riding a donkey to say: "You are all dead meat, history, forget it! ...in Luke 19:39-44. The pharisees loved to add stuff to the Bible saying things like eating with unwashed hands is bad and so forth. What is more dangerous? To smoke a cigarrette or to mess with God by teaching as doctrines commandments of men?

We are all addicted to something to some extent, some to donuts, some to coffee, some to TV, some to accusing others, some to bitting their nails, some to watching football, etc. Who is free of addiction? Not me. But the question in this thread is not about addiction, the question deals with the letter of the law... it is sin to smoke one cigarrete? Because I smoked cigarrettes for 5 years and never once got addicted. Not once did I ever had a desire to smoke. I smoked one pack of cigarrettes a year. Did I sin then?

How do we get people to stop sinning? By quoting a man-made law to them? It does not work. We tried that, it is called the Old Testament. It works against us.

Carry on... never mind me....

Peace

NHL Fever
Jun 24th 2011, 03:11 PM
I didnt criticize the narcotic user, ever, in any of my post's i simply showed that narcotics have a very different affect on people, and even morso, a different effect from me to you, you would react differently than i may, even so for the next person.
I showed that smoking does not affect you in the manner that narcotics can and does in its different ways for each individual, so i dont know where you got the idea i was criticizing anyone.

Anything may happen, we can't base decisions on the possibility of what might be, only on what we know to be. What we know, is the great harm that smoking does. We don't know the harm of breathing, eating, walking, etc. Saying 'we all react differently', is just rationalization. By smoking, you willfully put yourself at risk of impairing your ability to function or dying young. That's not justified by scripture, as your body does not belong to you, but to God.


Faith isnt the reason you smoke at all again another reasoning i have no idea why you have come up with, the faith that makes smoking not matter is the the outward taken inward does not defile a man through the Lord, in other words nothing is unclean, however the inward coming outward is what defiles a man, his words and his thoughts and actions, smoking doesn't alter that, Rufus may argue that, but I'm the smoker not him, Ive not smoked and ive smoked and there is no difference in my thoughts or my actions wether i smoke or do not smoke and my faith again is nothing is unclean through the Lord, nothing i take in defiles, but what comes out does and smoking does not change my inner, therefore it does not defile me having been taken in from the outward to the stomach (the body, yes lungs being a part of it) the inward.

Addicts to every substance can, and do use that exact same argument. Is the crack user justified as well because its not what goes in that's important? And guess what, smoking actually can seriously alter the way you both think and act, because its the number one risk factor for stroke, and roughly doubles your rate of dementia. You can create a complex series of criteria and make the line of what's ok and what's not fall to just beyond what you like to do, its pure rationalization, textbook addiction reasoning.


Thats obviously not the same for some of you, its a stumbling block for you to try and understand it because your faith is your faith, however my faith is not your faith, but to keep peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit i would follow the Word and not smoke around any of you who proclaim displeasure over it.
This isn't about faith. This is pure fact, smoking damages you. Not because 'anything might happen to me', but because its proven. If damaging yourself for no reason but a hobby is ok in your view of scripture, there is a problem there IMO. I'm curious how you would explain to your kid for example that smoking pot or hooka or getting a buzz from meds is wrong. Would you be able to? They might offer the same argument as you are, and it would make just as much sense. You may be required to formulate a coherent argument some day for that reason.


Problem solved, stop worrying about my (others) faith and regard your own...why do you look to the spec in your brothers eye when there is a plank in your own?
Let me guess took that out of context? Only way that is out of context is if any of you can stand before me and claim manly perfection, that you do nothing wrong at any time on any given day.

This is the 'anything is ok for me because you're not perfect' argument. I'm not sure the flaw with that one requires explanation.

mattlad22
Jun 24th 2011, 03:19 PM
Anything may happen, we can't base decisions on the possibility of what might be, only on what we know to be. What we know, is the great harm that smoking does. We don't know the harm of breathing, eating, walking, etc. Saying 'we all react differently', is just rationalization. By smoking, you willfully put yourself at risk of impairing your ability to function or dying young. That's not justified by scripture, as your body does not belong to you, but to God.


Addicts to every substance can, and do use that exact same argument. Is the crack user justified as well because its not what goes in that's important? And guess what, smoking actually can seriously alter the way you both think and act, because its the number one risk factor for stroke, and roughly doubles your rate of dementia. You can create a complex series of criteria and make the line of what's ok and what's not fall to just beyond what you like to do, its pure rationalization, textbook addiction reasoning.

This isn't about faith. This is pure fact, smoking damages you. Not because 'anything might happen to me', but because its proven. If damaging yourself for no reason but a hobby is ok in your view of scripture, there is a problem there IMO. I'm curious how you would explain to your kid for example that smoking pot or hooka or getting a buzz from meds is wrong. Would you be able to? They might offer the same argument as you are, and it would make just as much sense. You may be required to formulate a coherent argument some day for that reason.


This is the 'anything is ok for me because you're not perfect' argument. I'm not sure the flaw with that one requires explanation.

Thats what you dont understand Nhl, you say "what we know is that smoking cases great harm" What i know is that nothing is unclean of itself and that what eneters into the body does not defile a man, but what comes from within a man, his heart, to the outwardly, actions, word, through thoughts and desires can defile him.
So yes faith does matter because your faith is that smoking is unclean, my faith is that it isnt through the Lord.

And no it isnt that arguement, in fact nothing of the sort was mentioned at all, that is the you taking it that way, not me saying that, your feeding me your thoughts, accusing me of saying that as my intention, which isnt true at all.

NHL Fever
Jun 24th 2011, 03:24 PM
Thats what you dont understand Nhl, you say "what we know is that smoking cases great harm" What i know is that nothing is unclean of itself and that what eneters into the body does not defile a man, but what comes from within a man, his heart, to the outwardly, actions, word, through thoughts and desires can defile him.
So yes faith does matter because your faith is that smoking is unclean, my faith is that it isnt through the Lord.

And no it isnt that arguement, in fact nothing of the sort was mentioned at all, that is the you taking it that way, not me saying that, your feeding me your thoughts, accusing me of saying that as my intention, which isnt true at all.

That's a fine point, but you are avoiding the question. If it's not what goes in, then what is wrong with other drugs of abuse?

mattlad22
Jun 24th 2011, 04:34 PM
That's a fine point, but you are avoiding the question. If it's not what goes in, then what is wrong with other drugs of abuse?

I have answered that, can those other drugs not affect what inwardly comes outward?
Have you ever been high? or drunk?
I've been both, quite a few times, I was not myself, especially when im drunk and around women. When i was high, i was basically a zombie with a pulse.
Smoking does not influence how i love others, nor how i love myself.

Is taking drugs o drinking a sin in itself? No, but the effects from it make you liable to sin, in fact i dont know anyone who can do either and react as they would sober, do you?

Smoking does not do any of those things to a person at all. Do smokers look drunk or high to you? does it look like they cannot perform thier bodily and thought process any differently than you can at any given time? Can you say the same for someone whos high or drunk?

Rufus
Jun 24th 2011, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=Rufus;2704902]

It is all about love. Some are good at it, others... well, ... others are like me, we have problems showing it. Thanks for the feedback.

Peace

You're on the right track, although you may not know why. Did you know that love isn't self-seeking? And that it rejoices with the TRUTH? And that it does not act unbecomingly? And that it does not rejoice in unrighteousness?

Rufus

Rufus
Jun 24th 2011, 07:39 PM
Indeed that is what i am saying, they do not boast of the glory that the Lord performs, it is not them that the grace is supplied from but of the Lord. Whom they give the glory.

So, you attend a church that's into snake-handling? Is that part their Sunday ritual or whatever day you observe? Have you allowed yourself to be bitten?

[Is lust not acted upon of the body? is it not an act of the heart, is it not the inwardly acting outwardly? Not the outwardly acting inwardly?

Thats ok rufus, you very well have the right to give your opinion.
Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE]

Opinion? No, it's more than an opinion. I have searched the scriptures carefully to see what biblical principles apply. And several do! As soon as you admitted that there's nothing good about smoking, you lost your argument for indulging in an addictive behavior. On the other hand, if you wanted to write a little essay expounding on all the virtues for engaging in this kind of behavior, I'd be all ears. For example, if I were to recommend or counsel someone to attend church services regularly, I would be able to expound on the virtues of regular attendance. Or why being involved in a ministry is good thing. Good things, good behavior, good endeavors, etc. I'd easily be able to readily support with arguments. But smoking and inhaling an addictive drug, and becoming dependent upon it over time? I'm hard-pressed to justify that.

Rufus

mattlad22
Jun 24th 2011, 07:50 PM
So, you attend a church that's into snake-handling? Is that part their Sunday ritual or whatever day you observe? Have you allowed yourself to be bitten?

[Is lust not acted upon of the body? is it not an act of the heart, is it not the inwardly acting outwardly? Not the outwardly acting inwardly?

Thats ok rufus, you very well have the right to give your opinion.
Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Opinion? No, it's more than an opinion. I have searched the scriptures carefully to see what biblical principles apply. And several do! As soon as you admitted that there's nothing good about smoking, you lost your argument for indulging in an addictive behavior. On the other hand, if you wanted to write a little essay expounding on all the virtues for engaging in this kind of behavior, I'd be all ears. For example, if I were to recommend or counsel someone to attend church services regularly, I would be able to expound on the virtues of regular attendance. Or why being involved in a ministry is good thing. Good things, good behavior, good endeavors, etc. I'd easily be able to readily support with arguments. But smoking and inhaling an addictive drug, and becoming dependent upon it over time? I'm hard-pressed to justify that.

Rufus[/QUOTE]

Seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear.
Thats not what i have said nor implied at any point rufus. Were not snake hndlers nor are we inclined to take snakes and have them bite us to prove a point, what you dont get is that i said the church i belong to has power over such things through Christ Jesus, which then you asked has anyone in the church i am involved with everbeen bitten by a snake and not be overcome by its affects and i answered yes, because that is the truth and they didnt boast about it, they give glory to the Lord who gives them the grace of power over it through the Holy Spirit.

Self-righteousness, tearing down evil one step at a time, just like the Pharisees.
It is your opinion rufus. If noone does according to what you say it isnt right, thats exactly what your saying, nor do you understand what i am saying, which the clearest of it can be within my last 2 post in the most simplest form if you so desire to review it, other than that again we have not much to talk about that we havent discussed already.
Your reaction is no different from the reaction one may have over eating vegetables over meat, yet Peter clearly says, the one who eats the veges is he who at that current state has less faith, in which he also says the one who would eat meat has the greater requirement to humble himself before the one who doesnt so that a dispute does not take place and a stumbling block is not created in the one who eats vegetables and refuses to eat meat.

I wouldnt smoke around you, as i have said previously and will continue to say.

Servant89
Jun 24th 2011, 09:49 PM
I feel your pain. This is like trying to explain the color purple to a man born blind... Impossible.

Jesus put it like is..

John 8:43 why is it that you can not understand my speech? It is because you can not receive my words.

This has nothing to do with I Q. It deals with the heart. Self righteous people think they are righteous and the rest are sinners. They are incapable of listening or understanding what others say. They can't help themselves... Their hobby is to accuse, accuse, accuse... I am afraid we are laboring in vain here ...

Peace

Rufus
Jun 25th 2011, 12:15 AM
Seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear.
Thats not what i have said nor implied at any point rufus. Were not snake hndlers nor are we inclined to take snakes and have them bite us to prove a point, what you dont get is that i said the church i belong to has power over such things through Christ Jesus, which then you asked has anyone in the church i am involved with everbeen bitten by a snake and not be overcome by its affects and i answered yes, because that is the truth and they didnt boast about it, they give glory to the Lord who gives them the grace of power over it through the Holy Spirit.

Self-righteousness, tearing down evil one step at a time, just like the Pharisees.
It is your opinion rufus. If noone does according to what you say it isnt right, thats exactly what your saying, nor do you understand what i am saying, which the clearest of it can be within my last 2 post in the most simplest form if you so desire to review it, other than that again we have not much to talk about that we havent discussed already.
Your reaction is no different from the reaction one may have over eating vegetables over meat, yet Peter clearly says, the one who eats the veges is he who at that current state has less faith, in which he also says the one who would eat meat has the greater requirement to humble himself before the one who doesnt so that a dispute does not take place and a stumbling block is not created in the one who eats vegetables and refuses to eat meat.

I wouldnt smoke around you, as i have said previously and will continue to say.

Why do you keep comparing a drug to food? You have even compared to air. I mean really.

And I do understand what you're saying. But none of it makes any sense, I'm sorry to say.

Just expound for us the virtues of smoking cigarettes. Do you recommend to people that they take up smoking? Do you recommend or suggest smoking as you would some favorite dish or recipe? When you go to a church picnic or pot luck dinner, do you take a carton of cigs and toss them on the table as other people would their food? Do you tell kids that smoking is really cool and when they're of age, they should look into it as a lifelong pleasure? I'm trying to wrap my head around where the GOOD is in an addictive behavior. "Hold fast to that which is good; abhor evil", so saith the Lord.

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 25th 2011, 02:10 AM
True story, the Lord is my witness. The hispanic pastor in our church was talking to me and he said .... "I would never ever allow what the senior pastor here allows in this church". (can you smell the self righteousness already?)

I said: And what is that?

He said: "I will never ever let any smokers to sing in the Choir."

To which I answered back: "How about the ones that drink alcohol, would you let those sing?"

He said: "No, not one of them."

I said: "How about the ones that have sex outside of marriage?"

He said: "None of them."

Now, let me explain, this guy is 5 feet 3 inches tall and weights 230 pounds. His belly sticks out in an abnormal way. So, looking at his belly, I asked him: "How about those that eat too much? Are you going to let them sing in the choir"?

He thought for 5 seconds and then said: "Nope, I wont."

I could tell his arrogance came with denial. Months later he later had to be fired from our church for failure to follow on this contract, (he owed money to the Church) and left without paying.

The self-righteous do nothing but accuse the brethren, it is their hobby, their pass time.

Talking about swallowing up a camel. I love the way the Lord does business, I love to hear about the things that get him upset because it makes sense to me and I say: RIGHT! That is the camel indeed !

How many times Jesus pointed the finger at others and said: You are a sinner. I condemn you. Or ... that thing you are doing is sin. When?

Why would people think that his Holy Spirit will be any different (accusing Christians)?

There is a spirit that has that behavior...

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And whose bright idea was the go back to the Old Testament and minister death to Christians by trying to improve us through quoting the law? Who actually believes that quoting the law is the sure vehicle to improving people? I know, I know... the self-righteous.

Shalom

mattlad22
Jun 25th 2011, 05:56 AM
Why do you keep comparing a drug to food? You have even compared to air. I mean really.

And I do understand what you're saying. But none of it makes any sense, I'm sorry to say.

Just expound for us the virtues of smoking cigarettes. Do you recommend to people that they take up smoking? Do you recommend or suggest smoking as you would some favorite dish or recipe? When you go to a church picnic or pot luck dinner, do you take a carton of cigs and toss them on the table as other people would their food? Do you tell kids that smoking is really cool and when they're of age, they should look into it as a lifelong pleasure? I'm trying to wrap my head around where the GOOD is in an addictive behavior. "Hold fast to that which is good; abhor evil", so saith the Lord.

Rufus

Explained exactly why i compare smoking to food. If you really understood as you say you do right after you ask that then you wouldnt be asking me that question again, would you?
Thats where your messing up, your trying to understand what the good of it is and focusing on what you personally think the bad is.
You ever play baseball? Go golfing? take a picture of something? read a book that isnt the bible nor scripture focused?
What good is that? none of those provide just as you say smoking doesnt, are they sins?

Servant89
Jun 25th 2011, 03:21 PM
Smoking corrupts the body of flesh and can make it addictive. But it affects the soul less than the following practices:

Drinking alcohol in excess
Bad mouthing fellow Christians
Falsely accusing other Christians
Self praise
Accusing others
or carrying a conversation like they themselves are somehow holier than us

All that really adversely affect the soul more than smoking...

Why is it that there is no holy ghost alarm when they go there, and there is one alarm for smoking?

Hmmm

Rufus
Jun 26th 2011, 01:44 AM
Explained exactly why i compare smoking to food. If you really understood as you say you do right after you ask that then you wouldnt be asking me that question again, would you?
Thats where your messing up, your trying to understand what the good of it is and focusing on what you personally think the bad is.
You ever play baseball? Go golfing? take a picture of something? read a book that isnt the bible nor scripture focused?
What good is that? none of those provide just as you say smoking doesnt, are they sins?

A few things: None of those things in and of themselves contain addictive elements therein. But this isn't the case with nicotine. This drug in and of itself is addictive.

Secondly, there is no prohibition of doing things to enjoy ourselves and when we truly find a genuine good in those things or activities, most of us are not shy or bashful in heartily recommending them to others. For example, if I read a really good secular book that I thoroughly enjoyed, I would not hesitate in recommending it to others to read. Ditto if I took in a good movie. Or if I had dined out in a restaurant that served fine food, etc., etc. And in all cases I'd be able to explain why I thought something was genuinely good.

But how many smokers go around praising or recommending to friends, relatives, acquaintances, kids, etc., that they should take up the nicotine habit because....because....because...I'm still waiting to hear the good of it.

How many books have been written extolling the virtues of smoking and becoming addictive to the nicotine drug?

Or is there anything written by medical science extolling the virtues of smoking cigarettes?

If nothing good can be said of a thing or activity, then it must be evil! Then it becomes incumbent upon true lovers of God to search the scriptures to see what they say about good and evil things or activities. We need to search the scriptures to see what principles, if any, address this kind of activity.

Several years ago, I literally turned off my TV. I closed my account with my satellite company for a few reasons -- but none of the reasons had to do with TV itself being evil. TV is amoral. What was "evil" was that I was spending too much valuable time parked in front of it and even watching questionable shows, to my shame. At the end of the day, TV wasn't working for me. And God convicted me of this. But the passive activity of boob tube watching can't be compared to smoking because this activity involves inhaling an addictive drug into the body, a drug that is designed to get smokers hooked, so that they'll keep coming back and buying more ciggys. But TV isn't inherently addictive. Yes, one can become addicted to watching it day and night, but that's due to the inherent weakness of the flesh (our evil nature). Therefore, when we're drawn to something that we wind up making sinful, then it's time to pull the plug on that activity.

Rufus

CommanderRobey
Jun 26th 2011, 01:38 PM
Maybe, just maybe, ... smoking is a sin?

The Word of God tells us that the wages of sin is death. We all know the effects that years of smoking have on a body; i.e., premature aging, cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, cancer, etc..

Smoking has brought about the deaths of thousands upon thousands upon thousands in the world. I myself am headed toward an early grave due to 23 years of smoking before getting wise and putting the cigarette down. Unfortunately, I did not put that cigarette down early enough. I have COPD and asthma caused by the smoking I so enjoyed for 23 years of my life. I am paying for my defiling of the Temple of the Holy Spirit... my body.

Is smoking a sin? I believe it is.

Servant89
Jun 26th 2011, 01:58 PM
Maybe, just maybe, ... smoking is a sin?

The Word of God tells us that the wages of sin is death. We all know the effects that years of smoking have on a body; i.e., premature aging, cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, cancer, etc..

Smoking has brought about the deaths of thousands upon thousands upon thousands in the world. I myself am headed toward an early grave due to 23 years of smoking before getting wise and putting the cigarette down. Unfortunately, I did not put that cigarette down early enough. I have COPD and asthma caused by the smoking I so enjoyed for 23 years of my life. I am paying for my defiling of the Temple of the Holy Spirit... my body.

Is smoking a sin? I believe it is.

Thank you ComanderRoy, it is hard to argue with the truth. Everything you said is the truth. It is a known fact, that smoking is bad for our health. We do not get sick for doing the right thing, do we? Thank you for your humility in stating "I believe it is" instead of "I Know it for a fact, that it is".

I see it like this... there is the NT way of judging and then there is the Old Testament way of judging (by the letter of the law). We need to ask the question, it is a sin according to the letter of the law (the OT way), or is it a sin according to the NT law of love and liberty? Maybe both are the same ! I believe you just spoke about the NT assessment of your situation, and I agree with you on that (I know, it looks like I am jumping camps, I might). But under the NT way of assessing what is right and what is wrong, even playing with electrical trains CAN BE wrong if I spend all my money on it and my family goes hungry. According to the letter of the law, playing with electrical trains, watching TV or drinking coffee are not sins. But they can become sin, if done in excess and violate the law of Christ (of love). Thank you for that timing testimony. Facts are facts.

P.S. My contention is that smoking is not a sin according to the letter of the law. Here is the litmus test for everyone: If the Navajo nation invites me to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ with the condition that I first smoke the peace pipe (containing tobbacco)... in front of everyone just before the sermon.... I will do it in order to get people saved by the Message of Jesus (because I believe doing it just one time is not a sin in that situation. That is why I believe it is not a sin, per the letter of the law. If the reader will not smoke it in that situation, that would tell me, to the reader, smoking is a sin according to the letter of the law (meaning, in all situations). If I were someone like you, in this particular scenario that I presented, I will explain first to the chief of the tribe my situation and ask for a waiver.... :-) if possible, ...

Peace

Servant89
Jun 26th 2011, 02:11 PM
Having an orgasm is addictive. Once a teenager masturbates, the body learns something new (it gets corrupted), and wants it again and again.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

That is why the letter of the law dictates in the Old Testament that ejaculation of semen is a sin (Old Testament law).

Lev 15:16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

Orgasms are addictive !!!!!

But under the NT law, see what the Bible says about orgasms...

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:

Sex with my wife does not make me unclean. In the OT it did, under NT law, it doesn't. That is the awesome power of the blood. I am addicted to sex and as long as I am having sex with my wife, it is ok to be addicted like this.

Paul said that he kept his body subject to him, that means, he did not let his body be the boss of his soul, that is addiction. Fasting is a good way of telling our bodies who's the boss.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 26th 2011, 05:05 PM
You want to talk addiction? Lets talk addiction then.

Lets talk about sugar, which like tobacco, was invented by God. Like tobacco, it brings pleasure to mankind. Like tobacco, it brings damage to the human body if taken in excess. How many people have died for being too fat? How many people have died for diabetis? How many people have lost their teeth because of sugar developed cavities? I think, and this is my opinion, that it is hugely hipocritical for a pastor that weights 410 pounds to call smoking a sin from the pulpit.

Let me remind you all what happened in the desert with Israel... when Israel complained that they wanted the garlic and the meat that they had in Egypt, when they lusted for food, ... this is what happened...

Ps 78:26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

Before you tell me that smoking is a sin, you should be telling me that you consider being overweight a sin, Count them, ... more people die for being fat than due to smoking. Just count them in church... There are more fat people in church, than smokers.

So, are we going to say that ingesting sugar is a sin, because it is addictive, and it certainly is addictive. Are we? There is scripture in the BIble showing God killing the fat people for lusting for food. Where do we see God IN THE BIBLE !!!! ...killing smokers? Nowhere in the Bible do we see that. It is more biblical to call overweight people sinners, than smokers. But we do not want to go there because we will lose too many tithers.

P.S. The last eating outing we had in church, I noticed 5 men around the table that had the desserts and the sweets... I recognized something they all had in common, they are all diabetic. Once the doctor tells you, you cant have this... your desire for that increases. Calling it a sin, is not going to improve people, it works against them.

Peace

Rufus
Jun 26th 2011, 05:18 PM
Having an orgasm is addictive. Once a teenager masturbates, the body learns something new (it gets corrupted), and wants it again and again.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

That is why the letter of the law dictates in the Old Testament that ejaculation of semen is a sin (Old Testament law).

Lev 15:16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

Orgasms are addictive !!!!!

But under the NT law, see what the Bible says about orgasms...

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:

Sex with my wife does not make me unclean. In the OT it did, under NT law, it doesn't. That is the awesome power of the blood. I am addicted to sex and as long as I am having sex with my wife, it is ok to be addicted like this.

Paul said that he kept his body subject to him, that means, he did not let his body be the boss of his soul, that is addiction. Fasting is a good way of telling our bodies who's the boss.

Peace



WHAT!? Are you okay? Sex with one's wife was NEVER, NEVER, NEVER unclean or sinful in the OT. Have you forgotten that it was God himself who instituted marriage in the Garden? Are you saying that God instituted an unclean, sinful activity?

And then you start off with how masturbation is "addictive" and end with marriage being addictive. You put the two activities on the same moral plane? Unreal.

Rufus

Servant89
Jun 26th 2011, 09:45 PM
WHAT!? Are you okay? Sex with one's wife was NEVER, NEVER, NEVER unclean or sinful in the OT. Have you forgotten that it was God himself who instituted marriage in the Garden? Are you saying that God instituted an unclean, sinful activity?

And then you start off with how masturbation is "addictive" and end with marriage being addictive. You put the two activities on the same moral plane? Unreal.

Rufus

Cant you read?

Lev 15:16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and (in spite of the washing, HE WILL STILL) be unclean until the even. That's right, in spite of the washing, he shall still be UNCLEAN BEFORE GOD until sunset. Go argue with God, I did not write the book.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

It does not say....if any man's seed of copulation go out from him during extramarital sex, it does not say that.

It does not say.... he shall be CLEAN because the marriage bed is undefiled. That is not what it says.

Again, cant you read? Or do you want me to base doctrine on what you say instead? Unclean means NOT CLEAN.... Every time the Torah calls someone UNCLEAN... means falling short of the Standard.

The only law in the garded of Eden was, do not eat of that tree, everything else goes.... Moses changed that. Because of the addictive nature of an orgasm .... it is also written...

1 Cor 7:1 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Now ... lets go back to smoking (or getting fat) ....

I never said marriage is addictive... I said orgasms are addictive.

Peace

Servant89
Jun 29th 2011, 01:59 AM
By the way, when God rehearsed his coming down like the second coming, with voices, thunders, lightings and earthquake (like the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial)... He told Israel to sanctify themselves and stay away from sex for 3 days... Until the appointed day for God's arrival. See it in Exo 19:10-15. That is another witness that under the law of Moses... Orgasms made people unclean. But not today, thanks to the blood of Jesus, the bed is undefiled.

Shalom

NHL Fever
Jun 30th 2011, 02:45 PM
I have answered that, can those other drugs not affect what inwardly comes outward?
Have you ever been high? or drunk?
I've been both, quite a few times, I was not myself, especially when im drunk and around women. When i was high, i was basically a zombie with a pulse.
Smoking does not influence how i love others, nor how i love myself.

Is taking drugs o drinking a sin in itself? No, but the effects from it make you liable to sin, in fact i dont know anyone who can do either and react as they would sober, do you?

Smoking does not do any of those things to a person at all. Do smokers look drunk or high to you? does it look like they cannot perform thier bodily and thought process any differently than you can at any given time? Can you say the same for someone whos high or drunk?

I have already explained how smoking DOES affect your outward behavior, as it can lead to serious mental impairment via strokes and dementia, which is proven. That impairment lasts FOREVER. That argument holds no water, and it once again a double standard. You want to do the behavior that damages you (physically and mentally), but condemn the one that damages other people. Why? Not for any biblical reason, just because you like it.

And shouldn't the people smoking pot be able to overcome the effects by the power of faith, just like you? Odd how only your behavior falls into this category.

NHL Fever
Jun 30th 2011, 02:54 PM
Smoking corrupts the body of flesh and can make it addictive. But it affects the soul less than the following practices:

Drinking alcohol in excess
Bad mouthing fellow Christians
Falsely accusing other Christians
Self praise
Accusing others
or carrying a conversation like they themselves are somehow holier than us

All that really adversely affect the soul more than smoking...

Why is it that there is no holy ghost alarm when they go there, and there is one alarm for smoking?

Hmmm

Right and killing somebody, committing arson, or sleeping around are all worse than those things, so relatively speaking those things you mention should be ok right? Thats is the argument you are making. It is the oldest tactic on how to justify a behavior - just point out what other people do as worse and it makes it ok. But that doesn't solve the issue of willfully damaging yourself for nothing but your own pleasure, or for addiction. I would pose the same question to you - how will you explain to your kid they shouldn't smoke pot, use other drugs, cut themselves etc. Imagine yourself having that dicussion, and they tell you that they have power over that harm because of faith, and that the gossiper causes worse damage. Where do you go from there?

Servant89
Jun 30th 2011, 09:50 PM
Right and killing somebody, committing arson, or sleeping around are all worse than those things, so relatively speaking those things you mention should be ok right? That’s is the argument you are making.

No, it is not. You missed by a mile. You are imagining things about me that are just evil. It is written:

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Zech 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbor; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.


It is the oldest tactic on how to justify a behavior - just point out what other people do as worse and it makes it ok.

I don’t smoke and I don’t drink alcohol, but if I did, it would not be a sin unless I do them in excess.


But that doesn't solve the issue of willfully damaging yourself for nothing but your own pleasure, or for addiction.

People do that with sugar all the time. Google "deaths as a result of obesity", and you will find out it is more deadly than smoking. My point is that people pick and chose the stuff they call sin (outside what the Bible calls sin), if they practice it, is not a sin, and if they don’t practice it, is a sin. Then they use human understanding to justify calling it a sin. Which is not biblical at all.



I would pose the same question to you - how will you explain to your kid they shouldn't smoke pot, use other drugs, etc. ?

I would do it by telling them it is outrageously stupid and it is a point of no return for some drugs that the moment they try it, they will become addicted because the stuff is so good, they will want nothing else in their lives after tasting it. I will not try to keep them from trying them by telling them it is a sin (unless there is a Bible verse to back that up). The bible says calling it a sin will have the opposite effect, moving them towards trying it instead of away from trying it.


Imagine yourself having that discussion, and they tell you that they have power over that harm because of faith, and that the gossiper causes worse damage. Where do you go from there?

I will tell them that is the wrong way of seeing it. I would not try to stop them by telling them it is a sin. I will show them pictures of healthy and unhealthy lungs. I will tell them, the moment their bodies become their bosses, and they have no control over their desire for smoking … that is when they are slaves to their body’s desire. I will tell them being a slave is not cool, being the boss is really cool. We should all be the boss of our bodies. But I will never ever tell them it is sin, because that works against it. The good thing about the law (if it is the law of God in the Bible, not some man-made requirement) is that is draws unsaved people to Christ. But once they are saved, the law is not the right soap to clean people, the blood is, and the grace of God. That is crystal clear all over the Bible.

Are you having a good day? Just wondering....
Shalom

RollTide21
Jul 1st 2011, 03:18 PM
No, it is not. You missed by a mile. You are imagining things about me that are just evil. It is written:

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Zech 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbor; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.



I don’t smoke and I don’t drink alcohol, but if I did, it would not be a sin unless I do them in excess.



People do that with sugar all the time. Google "deaths as a result of obesity", and you will find out it is more deadly than smoking. My point is that people pick and chose the stuff they call sin (outside what the Bible calls sin), if they practice it, is not a sin, and if they don’t practice it, is a sin. Then they use human understanding to justify calling it a sin. Which is not biblical at all.




I would do it by telling them it is outrageously stupid and it is a point of no return for some drugs that the moment they try it, they will become addicted because the stuff is so good, they will want nothing else in their lives after tasting it. I will not try to keep them from trying them by telling them it is a sin (unless there is a Bible verse to back that up). The bible says calling it a sin will have the opposite effect, moving them towards trying it instead of away from trying it.



I will tell them that is the wrong way of seeing it. I would not try to stop them by telling them it is a sin. I will show them pictures of healthy and unhealthy lungs. I will tell them, the moment their bodies become their bosses, and they have no control over their desire for smoking … that is when they are slaves to their body’s desire. I will tell them being a slave is not cool, being the boss is really cool. We should all be the boss of our bodies. But I will never ever tell them it is sin, because that works against it. The good thing about the law (if it is the law of God in the Bible, not some man-made requirement) is that is draws unsaved people to Christ. But once they are saved, the law is not the right soap to clean people, the blood is, and the grace of God. That is crystal clear all over the Bible.

Are you having a good day? Just wondering....
ShalomI'm with you, here, but...

The Holy Spirit...is Holy. Life in the Spirit is a life of Holiness. Smoking cigarettes and damaging our lungs with a harmful, addictive substance isn't Holy. It's just not. Indulging in overeating of fast food, sugar, or whatever else isn't any different.

I am one who firmly believes that the Spirit of Christ leads us each as individuals according to the Will of God. In that respect, I believe that, if someone has a smoking habit, it's absolutely feasible that the Lord is dealing with that problem in His own time. Quitting a nicotine habit is tough...and it can take a mental and emotional toll. Heck, Jeff Bagwell (pro baseball player) battled depression when he quit dipping snuff. God may work us through a trial gently and gradually...or harshly...however He sees fit.

But...we can be confident and testify in what is and what is wrong in the sight of God, and smoking is wrong. My thing is this: We shouldn't justify grieving the Holy Spirit by rationalizing that, since the Lord isn't smacking us in the face with lung cancer, mouth cancer, or heart disease, that an unhealthy habit isn't wrong. I think we can know in our hearts what is and what is not right.

I can agree with you on addressing this...to a point. If I were to talk to my son about smoking, I'd certainly tell him it was stupid, but I wouldn't hesitate, at all, to point out to him that it isn't something that God would want him to do. It wouldn't be in a judgemental fashion, but it would be a matter of letting him know that God loves him and doesn't want him to hurt himself with something that isn't healthy. He's young, mind you.

Ephesians 6:4:

4 Fathers,[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-29342b)] do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

Servant89
Jul 1st 2011, 09:03 PM
I'm with you, here, but...

The Holy Spirit...is Holy. Life in the Spirit is a life of Holiness. Smoking cigarettes and damaging our lungs with a harmful, addictive substance isn't Holy. It's just not. Indulging in overeating of fast food, sugar, or whatever else isn't any different.

I am one who firmly believes that the Spirit of Christ leads us each as individuals according to the Will of God. In that respect, I believe that, if someone has a smoking habit, it's absolutely feasible that the Lord is dealing with that problem in His own time. Quitting a nicotine habit is tough...and it can take a mental and emotional toll. Heck, Jeff Bagwell (pro baseball player) battled depression when he quit dipping snuff. God may work us through a trial gently and gradually...or harshly...however He sees fit.

But...we can be confident and testify in what is and what is wrong in the sight of God, and smoking is wrong. My thing is this: We shouldn't justify grieving the Holy Spirit by rationalizing that, since the Lord isn't smacking us in the face with lung cancer, mouth cancer, or heart disease, that an unhealthy habit isn't wrong. I think we can know in our hearts what is and what is not right.

I can agree with you on addressing this...to a point. If I were to talk to my son about smoking, I'd certainly tell him it was stupid, but I wouldn't hesitate, at all, to point out to him that it isn't something that God would want him to do. It wouldn't be in a judgemental fashion, but it would be a matter of letting him know that God loves him and doesn't want him to hurt himself with something that isn't healthy. He's young, mind you.

Ephesians 6:4:

4 Fathers,[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-29342b)] do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

I think I agree with you 99.9% on what you said. But there are 3 main reasons why I am reluctant to call it a sin.

1. I am aware that it is far uglier in the sight of God for me to have the audacity to sit on his throne and declare something that is not in the WORD OF GOD, A SIN. Because the Bible declares those people to be the worst one on this planet. God said: their heart is far from God and their worship is in vain. On Palm Sunday, in spite of the loud worship going on in Jerusalem for Jesus, He declared judment on Israel for that very thing.,.. God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. I much rather avoid that minefield of teaching as doctrine commandments of men.

2. The Bible is clear and everyone knows it, the moment we hear the law ... thou shalt not... the flesh awakes in us with a desire to break the law... Let me say it again, quoting the law does not improve anyone, it ruins our track record ... the law is good to attract people to Jesus when they realize they need a Savior. This is what the law does.

Rom 7:7 ... for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, brought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

a. They bring God's wrath upon us (Rom 4:15)
b. They are our enemy (Eph 2:15)
c. They make sin strong in our life (Rom 7:8-11)
d. Cause us to sin (Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13,20; Rom 7:8; 1Jo 3:4)
e. Rule over us (Gal 3:24-25; Rom 7:1; Gal 4:9-11)
f. Bring death to us (Rom 7:10; 2Cor 3:6-7)
g. Curse us (Gal 3:10)
h. They are not of faith (Gal 3:12)
i. They are against us (Col 2:14)
j. They condemn us (2Co 3:9)
k. Can not justify us (Rom 3:20,28)
l. Doing the commandments do not and can not bring miracles (Gal 3:1-6; Mat 11:13; John 10:41)

You want to clean Christians? Listen to Gal 3:1-6, forget about cleaning them with the law (It does not work, we tried it in the OT, see Heb 10), use the Holy SPirit (2Cor 3:1-16).

3. The third reason is clear, there is no verse in the BIble that says smoking is a sin.

ROM 4:15 … for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROM 5:13 … but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Get it?

Shalom

cryinglion
Jul 2nd 2011, 01:43 AM
Yes smoking is a sin as it is violating the temple that the Holy Spirit resides in.

Then be careful with all those artificial flavors, colors, and other additives as well. Considering that these also wreak havoc on the human body. I would say it's a sin to smoke in an area not designated for smoking, or done so in the presence of people while knowing that it would hurt or bother people.

Servant89
Jul 2nd 2011, 02:51 AM
I'm with you, here, but...The Holy Spirit...is Holy. Life in the Spirit is a life of Holiness. Smoking cigarettes and damaging our lungs with a harmful, addictive substance isn't Holy. It's just not. Indulging in overeating of fast food, sugar, or whatever else isn't any different.[/B]

My question is this... How come the ones that call smoking a sin, never call sugar .... unclean? Or sinful to ingest? How come? Because too many fat deacons and tithers will leave the Church, that's why. And because humans beings tend to be intolerant of the sins of others (that we ourselves do not practice) and at the same time oblivious to the ones we practice.

If you are not calling sugar a sin, then dont call tobacco a sin either. Both bring a good feeling to the soul with a price to pay for the body, when done in excess.

Shalom

Servant89
Jul 2nd 2011, 02:58 AM
Then be careful with all those artificial flavors, colors, and other additives as well. Considering that these also wreak havoc on the human body. I would say it's a sin to smoke in an area not designated for smoking, or done so in the presence of people while knowing that it would hurt or bother people.

Yes, it is a sin to smoke when we are hurting or bothering people with it (violating the NT law of love), but it is not a violation of the OT letter of the law. For there is no verse that states Thou Shalt Not Smoke.

Peace

NHL Fever
Jul 3rd 2011, 03:41 AM
My question is this... How come the ones that call smoking a sin, never call sugar .... unclean? Or sinful to ingest? How come? Because too many fat deacons and tithers will leave the Church, that's why. And because humans beings tend to be intolerant of the sins of others (that we ourselves do not practice) and at the same time oblivious to the ones we practice.

If you are not calling sugar a sin, then dont call tobacco a sin either. Both bring a good feeling to the soul with a price to pay for the body, when done in excess.

Shalom

Sugars are necessary for our bodies to produce energy. They are useful for example, for every single process of your entire body. Without them you die. Certain forms of sugars when consumed in excess are damaging, and I'm the first one to say destroying your body (God's resource) for your own pleasure is wrong. I would agree that becoming obese is equally problematic. That's the whole basis of my argument. Sugars can be good or bad depending on the form and frequency. Smoking can only be bad, no matter the frequency, and has no useful benefit. Any form of abuse or waste of what God has given you in mental, physical or financial form, is wrong.


Yes, it is a sin to smoke when we are hurting or bothering people with it (violating the NT law of love), but it is not a violation of the OT letter of the law. For there is no verse that states Thou Shalt Not Smoke.Peace

It also doesn't say thou shalt not grope women, or thou shall not do crack. But nevertheless we derive principles of heart to everyday matters as new convenant Christians. This whole argument in fact rests on issues of the heart, because it is conceptual, not literal. It's a totally bogus spiritual attitude of "I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by faith", which is the main problem. This is an argument that justifies any activity if you want it to.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree with your 'don't judge' attitude, but you are not comparing apples to apples here. If somebody is agressive to get money, I may call them greedy, and in that case your argument holds because I can't truly know their heart. But smoking leaves no doubt, it is unquestionably damaging regardless of the motive. The only thing you need to know is whether the smoker is aware of the facts on smoking. If they are, then they are willfully abusing their body, period. That was not the case for our grandparents, but it is the case for most people today. This also has nothing to do with a specific action so the comparison to legalistic Pharisees is irrelevant. This has to do with the concept of abuse of God's gifts, which can hold true for many other things other than smoking.


Yes, it is a sin to smoke when we are hurting or bothering people with it (violating the NT law of love), but it is not a violation of the OT letter of the law. For there is no verse that states Thou Shalt Not Smoke.
Peace

This is very interesting because if its wrong to hurt others, why would it ok to hurt ourselves with it? The perfect analogy to it is whether murder as a sin also makes suicide wrong.

Know what the real issue is here? The American/western value of individualism is in conflict with the value ownership (by God) in scripture. God owns you, you don't own yourself. You have the responsibility to be responsible and fruitful with God's possesions. The enormous damage of smoking is incontrovertible. But with short attention spans, as long as it doesn't look like its hurting me right this second, we don't see the big picture.

Servant89
Jul 3rd 2011, 07:41 PM
Sugars are necessary for our bodies to produce energy. They are useful for example, for every single process of your entire body. Without them you die. Certain forms of sugars when consumed in excess are damaging, and I'm the first one to say destroying your body (God's resource) for your own pleasure is wrong. I would agree that becoming obese is equally problematic. That's the whole basis of my argument. Sugars can be good or bad depending on the form and frequency. Smoking can only be bad, no matter the frequency, and has no useful benefit. Any form of abuse or waste of what God has given you in mental, physical or financial form, is wrong.

It also doesn't say thou shalt not grope women, or thou shall not do crack. But nevertheless we derive principles of heart to everyday matters as new convenant Christians. This whole argument in fact rests on issues of the heart, because it is conceptual, not literal. It's a totally bogus spiritual attitude of "I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by faith", which is the main problem. This is an argument that justifies any activity if you want it to.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree with your 'don't judge' attitude, but you are not comparing apples to apples here. If somebody is agressive to get money, I may call them greedy, and in that case your argument holds because I can't truly know their heart. But smoking leaves no doubt, it is unquestionably damaging regardless of the motive. The only thing you need to know is whether the smoker is aware of the facts on smoking. If they are, then they are willfully abusing their body, period. That was not the case for our grandparents, but it is the case for most people today. This also has nothing to do with a specific action so the comparison to legalistic Pharisees is irrelevant. This has to do with the concept of abuse of God's gifts, which can hold true for many other things other than smoking.


This is very interesting because if its wrong to hurt others, why would it ok to hurt ourselves with it? The perfect analogy to it is whether murder as a sin also makes suicide wrong.

Know what the real issue is here? The American/western value of individualism is in conflict with the value ownership (by God) in scripture. God owns you, you don't own yourself. You have the responsibility to be responsible and fruitful with God's possesions. The enormous damage of smoking is incontrovertible. But with short attention spans, as long as it doesn't look like its hurting me right this second, we don't see the big picture.


Warning: This is how I see things, and no one should believe doctrine based on the word of a donkey.

Smoking bring a very short and small burst of pleasure to the soul. Not all is bad about smoking. It brings pleasure to the smoker. That is why people do it. It makes them happy for that moment.

Haven't you heard of happy hour? The time alcoholic drinks are half price.... God invented happy hour... read it.

Ps 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man,

1 Sam 25:36 ... and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken:

That is why Jesus turned the water into wine in the FEAST in CANA for it is written:

Eccles 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry:

(PLEASE PAY ATTENTION ! People with EVIL hearts will immediately proclaim that I SAID: That Jesus wanted people drunk... I DID NOT SAY THAT !!!!!!!)

Drinking wine is not a sin, neither is smoking.

If we are going to start establishing doctrine (as if they came from God) by us sitting down and talking and analyzing what is good for man and is not good for man based on our human reasoning ... that is far worse than smoking, FAR WORSE ! Abstain from that, rather than abstaining from smoking, for that is far more damaging to our souls than smoking.

Again, I do not smoke and I do not drink alcohol except two glasses of wine each year (to show myself that I do not practice total abstince from alcohol). As I was walking 2 days ago, I saw a man smoking a big cigar outside his home and I told him: "I might start smoking again seeing how much you are enjoying that cigar"... and he laughed. No, I am not going to start smoking. I am 56 years old, I know better. But if you have your firstborn son and you ask me to smoke a cuban cigar with you to celebrate his arrival .... I WILL SMOKE THAT FINE CIGAR WITH YOU !

Those of you that want to obey the word of God... do this... Stop teaching as doctrines, commandments of men. We are not God, we should stop acting as if we are at his level and can generate doctrine on our own by using our human understanding. The plagues of Revelation are reserved for people that ADD to the word of God. I do not want to be part of that group.

I believe more smokers will come to Church if we remove the labeling of "substandard Christian" from those that smoke.

Shalom

jhardy35862
Jul 12th 2011, 08:58 AM
Yes.
Reason why: It shows disrespect for the gift of life, does it not?
In Acts 17:24, 25 it says of God that "he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things".
The evidence that smoking shortens life span and often is a main cause of death is enormous. In fact, the former US Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, Joseph Califano said "Today there can be no doubt that smoking is truly slow-motion suicide"!

Also another line of argument here is that it is not consistent with what God requires Christians to render to him.. for example, Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service."
Knowing the effects of smoking on the body (as it is nowadays so well documented) do you think it is consistent for a person to present himself to God for spiritual service and then deliberately to ruin his health?

We all know very well too the passage at Jas 2:8 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".
The affects of 'second-hand' smoke are also very dangerous and have been proved to shorten the lifespans of people who don't smoke.
A person who is thus unloving toward his fellowman does not give evidence of loving God either..

Servant89
Jul 12th 2011, 11:59 AM
Yes.
Reason why: It shows disrespect for the gift of life, does it not?
In Acts 17:24, 25 it says of God that "he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things".
The evidence that smoking shortens life span and often is a main cause of death is enormous. In fact, the former US Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, Joseph Califano said "Today there can be no doubt that smoking is truly slow-motion suicide"!

Also another line of argument here is that it is not consistent with what God requires Christians to render to him.. for example, Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service."
Knowing the effects of smoking on the body (as it is nowadays so well documented) do you think it is consistent for a person to present himself to God for spiritual service and then deliberately to ruin his health?

We all know very well too the passage at Jas 2:8 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".
The affects of 'second-hand' smoke are also very dangerous and have been proved to shorten the lifespans of people who don't smoke.
A person who is thus unloving toward his fellowman does not give evidence of loving God either..

Do I sin when I eat with unwashed hands then? For there are many microbes and bacteria that will do damage unless I wash my hands. Is that a sin? To eat with unwashed hands?

We all should be more afraid of sitting on God's throne as if we are the God of the universe, than going around adding sins to the list that God gave us. And yet, people are not afraid to do so.

Israel did that. On Palm Sunday Israel welcomed Jesus as their king praising him loudly. But it is written: Those that teach as doctrine commandments of men, their heart is far from God and their worship is in vain. On Palm Sunday, their worship of Jesus did not prevent Jesus from declaring judgment on Israel (Luke 19:39-44).

Heb 10:1, and the entire books of Romans and Galatians teach that the law cannot improve us. Stop using it to improve Christians. Use the Holy Spirit (2Cor 3:3-16).

Peace

NHL Fever
Jul 13th 2011, 04:45 AM
Warning: This is how I see things, and no one should believe doctrine based on the word of a donkey.

[SIZE=2]Smoking bring a very short and small burst of pleasure to the soul. Not all is bad about smoking. It brings pleasure to the smoker. That is why people do it. It makes them happy for that moment.

That is not the main reason people start smoking. Most start because of peer pressure or for social reasons. It does bring a buzz, however that is no the reason most people continue. Most continue because they are addicted.


Haven't you heard of happy hour? The time alcoholic drinks are half price.... God invented happy hour... read it.

Ps 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man,

Alcohol in limited quantities has little detrimental effect. Smoking, not the case.


1 Sam 25:36 ... and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken:

Bible says don't be drunk on wine, nabal's choice does not change that. Any alcoholic can tell you that drinking makes them merry. It's the post-drinking part which is less merry. If I'm not mistaken, this was directly the cause of a specific bible character having sex with his daughters. The result was sub-optimal.


That is why Jesus turned the water into wine in

That is not the reason he turned water into wine. It was to demonstrate a miracle and deliver a message. The 'good' wine as the last wine, was a metaphor using a counter-cultural action to illustrate a lesson and convey something about his purpose on earth.


Eccles 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry:

(PLEASE PAY ATTENTION ! People with EVIL hearts will immediately proclaim that I SAID: That Jesus wanted people drunk... I DID NOT SAY THAT !!!!!!!)

In order to avoid that misunderstanding, I would suggest not using an example of somebody getting drunk in the bible, as support for your point.



If we are going to start establishing doctrine (as if they came from God) by us sitting down and talking and analyzing what is good for man and is not good for man based on our human reasoning ... that is far worse than smoking, FAR WORSE ! Abstain from that, rather than abstaining from smoking, for that is far more damaging to our souls than smoking.

This can be used to justify anything you want. It'll be an interesting conversation to hear when your kid gives you the same logic regarding the latest experimental drug they are curious about. If that happens, I have a feeling you may suddenly view my logic more favorably.


Again, I do not smoke and I do not drink alcohol except two glasses of wine each year (to show myself that I do not practice total abstince from alcohol). As I was walking 2 days ago, I saw a man smoking a big cigar outside his home and I told him: "I might start smoking again seeing how much you are enjoying that cigar"... and he laughed. No, I am not going to start smoking. I am 56 years old, I know better. But if you have your firstborn son and you ask me to smoke a cuban cigar with you to celebrate his arrival .... I WILL SMOKE THAT FINE CIGAR WITH YOU !

That's not an addiction, and will not put you at risk of cancer, heart and lung disease. Smoking will. Any addiction is an obvious weak point for the devil to exploit.


I believe more smokers will come to Church if we remove the labeling of "substandard Christian" from those that smoke.


More homosexuals would also, if we likewise removed that label, or adulterer's or abusers etc. Unfortunately all we have is human brains and the bible. We have to use both and come up with positions. Otherwise we stand for both everything and nothing at the same time.

Servant89
Jul 13th 2011, 11:02 PM
That is not the main reason people start smoking. Most start because of peer pressure or for social reasons. It does bring a buzz, however that is no the reason most people continue. Most continue because they are addicted.


Alcohol in limited quantities has little detrimental effect. Smoking, not the case.

Bible says don't be drunk on wine, nabal's choice does not change that. Any alcoholic can tell you that drinking makes them merry. It's the post-drinking part which is less merry. If I'm not mistaken, this was directly the cause of a specific bible character having sex with his daughters. The result was sub-optimal.


That is not the reason he turned water into wine. It was to demonstrate a miracle and deliver a message. The 'good' wine as the last wine, was a metaphor using a counter-cultural action to illustrate a lesson and convey something about his purpose on earth.


In order to avoid that misunderstanding, I would suggest not using an example of somebody getting drunk in the bible, as support for your point.



This can be used to justify anything you want. It'll be an interesting conversation to hear when your kid gives you the same logic regarding the latest experimental drug they are curious about. If that happens, I have a feeling you may suddenly view my logic more favorably.


That's not an addiction, and will not put you at risk of cancer, heart and lung disease. Smoking will. Any addiction is an obvious weak point for the devil to exploit.


More homosexuals would also, if we likewise removed that label, or adulterer's or abusers etc. Unfortunately all we have is human brains and the bible. We have to use both and come up with positions. Otherwise we stand for both everything and nothing at the same time.

I know there are people out there ready to correct every word I say. It amazes me how consistently wrong I am in every thing I say. I must be the most consistently incorrect Christian in this forum.

Waiting for more correction...

The Talking Donkey ... Peace

NHL Fever
Jul 14th 2011, 03:08 AM
I know there are people out there ready to correct every word I say. It amazes me how consistently wrong I am in every thing I say. I must be the most consistently incorrect Christian in this forum.

Waiting for more correction...

The Talking Donkey ... Peace

In my faith I find there are two huge areas that I have a lot of trouble sorting out. One is how much to let God do things vs how much effort the human is supposed to put in. The second is this type of topic, in considering an issue, how much of 'well only God knows the heart guess we can't judge anything' and how much 'I should actually stand for this position' should be given. Its a very fine line. Its like saying is it a sin to burn yourself? Or is it a sin to watch garbage on TV? Bible says nothing about either. So as Christians do we take a position, or do we just leave it all up to God? Why do we hold a double standard and say other drugs of abuse are wrong?

For the nation of Israel, certain actions were wrong simply because of wrote law, no other reason. Under the new convenant, things are wrong based on the reality of the heart they come from. When thalidomide was released, it was not wrong to consume it because nobody knew about the problems. When they became known, only someone with a wrong heart would have exposed another human being (baby) to that harm. A company's president who sends his workers to mine asbestos unprotected where they will get mesothelioma and die is not sinning in the early 1900's. But after we learned the facts, that same person is sinning in doing so. Our grandparents were not wrong to smoke, just ignorant. Today they would be wrong, not because its smoking as if some kind of specific Jewish-law forbiden precept, but because its a willful destructive act against a being God has not given the right to be destrucrtive against. It's truly a heart, not a law, matter. It's possible for folks to have a right heart and smoke if they dont know the facts. But that accounts for very, very few people in the western world.

mbaran1992
Oct 21st 2011, 07:05 AM
Sorry to revive back this thread but I have a question. Is smoking a cigar considered a sin? I know that smoking cigarettes is sinful because you are inhaling and
using cigarettes to fight off stress. But, the reason I ask about cigars is because it is the complete opposite at least in my opinion. Here's why,

Cigars are smoked mainly for the taste of it and are not inhaled but rather kept for a short period of time in the mouth and then released. I would say its like having a beer with friends. I'm talking about strictly smoking one cigar on occasion with friends. No addiction, no inhaling, and no fighting stress.

Is it considered a sin if it it done in these ways? I am interested to know. I believe its not but I want to hear some opinions from people to make sure.

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2011, 07:12 AM
I didn't see or read this thread but I cannot see how smoking could be a sin. I am not sure all cigar smokers don't inhale...that's kind of the reason to smoke. Even those that just want to "taste it" inhale some, *personal experience*




Sorry to revive back this thread but I have a question. Is smoking a cigar considered a sin? I know that smoking cigarettes is sinful because you are inhaling and
using cigarettes to fight off stress. But, the reason I ask about cigars is because it is the complete opposite at least in my opinion. Here's why,

Cigars are smoked mainly for the taste of it and are not inhaled but rather kept for a short period of time in the mouth and then released. I would say its like having a beer with friends. I'm talking about strictly smoking one cigar on occasion with friends. No addiction, no inhaling, and no fighting stress.

Is it considered a sin if it it done in these ways? I am interested to know. I believe its not but I want to hear some opinions from people to make sure.

thedee
Oct 21st 2011, 03:15 PM
Sorry to revive back this thread but I have a question. Is smoking a cigar considered a sin? I know that smoking cigarettes is sinful because you are inhaling and
using cigarettes to fight off stress. But, the reason I ask about cigars is because it is the complete opposite at least in my opinion. Here's why,

Cigars are smoked mainly for the taste of it and are not inhaled but rather kept for a short period of time in the mouth and then released. I would say its like having a beer with friends. I'm talking about strictly smoking one cigar on occasion with friends. No addiction, no inhaling, and no fighting stress.

Is it considered a sin if it it done in these ways? I am interested to know. I believe its not but I want to hear some opinions from people to make sure.

If I see someone smoking I don't point my finger at them and tell them to stop. Why would I when I have a can of pepsi or coke in my hand. The can of pop is probably doing me more harm than a cigar or a cigarette.

NHL Fever
Oct 21st 2011, 04:34 PM
If I see someone smoking I don't point my finger at them and tell them to stop. Why would I when I have a can of pepsi or coke in my hand. The can of pop is probably doing me more harm than a cigar or a cigarette.

A cigarette is certainly much worse than a can of coke, but no question the coke is unhealthy and lots of it will degrade your body. Cigarettes are unquestionably the number one worst behavior in terms of health effects and medical costs in the world, by a long shot. Every one of the top killers in the developed world (except obesity), both cancerous and chronic disease, has a direct causal link to smoking.

keck553
Oct 21st 2011, 07:49 PM
I think we all have greater sins to attend to than worrying about smoking or downing 8 tsp of sugar...just sayin'

mikebr
Oct 22nd 2011, 01:30 AM
Where there is no law, there is no sin. I don't see any laws against smoking. Its not a sin.

mikebr
Oct 22nd 2011, 01:31 AM
A cigarette is certainly much worse than a can of coke, but no question the coke is unhealthy and lots of it will degrade your body. Cigarettes are unquestionably the number one worst behavior in terms of health effects and medical costs in the world, by a long shot. Every one of the top killers in the developed world (except obesity), both cancerous and chronic disease, has a direct causal link to smoking.

Lets say that a person smokes two packs a day, that's 40 cigarettes. What if a person drank 40 cokes a day. I bet it would kill him quicker than the smokes.:D

david
Oct 22nd 2011, 05:21 AM
Sorry to revive back this thread but I have a question. Is smoking a cigar considered a sin? I know that smoking cigarettes is sinful because you are inhaling and
using cigarettes to fight off stress. But, the reason I ask about cigars is because it is the complete opposite at least in my opinion. Here's why,

Cigars are smoked mainly for the taste of it and are not inhaled but rather kept for a short period of time in the mouth and then released. I would say its like having a beer with friends. I'm talking about strictly smoking one cigar on occasion with friends. No addiction, no inhaling, and no fighting stress.

Is it considered a sin if it it done in these ways? I am interested to know. I believe its not but I want to hear some opinions from people to make sure.

In my opinion, you have to consider for yourself if it's a sin. Since it's not discussed directly in the Bible you have to use your own spirit to discern (for the spiritual discerns all things, 1co 2.15). The holy spirit will tell you. If it comes in the way of fellowship with God, I would say it is a sin.

If something makes you dependent on it spiritually then it is definitely wrong. Jesus said not to seek food that does not satisfy your "spiritual hunger" and seek the eternal food instead (John 6:27). This I hope gives you an indicator of whether you should be smoking or not.

John 8:32
Oct 24th 2011, 06:40 PM
Where there is no law, there is no sin. I don't see any laws against smoking. Its not a sin.

This is usually applied...

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Problem with this passage is that almost anything can be overindulged in to the point one defiles his body. This passage could have a physical application, but I suspect Paul meant it in a spiritual sense.

nzyr
Oct 25th 2011, 06:11 AM
If I see someone smoking I don't point my finger at them and tell them to stop. Why would I when I have a can of pepsi or coke in my hand. The can of pop is probably doing me more harm than a cigar or a cigarette.
That's laughable.

ewq1938
Oct 25th 2011, 06:18 AM
This is usually applied...

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Probably but there was fire and thus SMOKE in the temple. People back then also cooked and got heat from fire. Ever been around a fire? You breath in A LOT OF SMOKE. I can't tell you how many times I've (been made sick) from accidentally inhaling smoke from a fire.