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poochie
Sep 1st 2008, 11:00 AM
My semester will be starting soon and when that happens I will have very little if any time to post here. So this may be my last discussion thread for a while.

So what do you say? is it Biblical to spank or not? There are many verses in the Proverbs that speak in support of spanking. However Liberals mistranslate and retranslate these verses to meet their itching ears. I am definitely in support of spanking.

graceforme
Sep 1st 2008, 11:41 AM
My semester will be starting soon and when that happens I will have very little if any time to post here. So this may be my last discussion thread for a while.

So what do you say? is it Biblical to spank or not? There are many verses in the Proverbs that speak in support of spanking. However Liberals mistranslate and retranslate these verses to meet their itching ears. I am definitely in support of spanking.

There is a huge difference between spanking a child and abusing a child. When we spank with our hand on the seat of the pants, the child is reminded of who they are subject to and that there are consequences for rebellious behavior.

I can't abide by an adult slapping a child in the face or in the head. But a good spanking on the bottom never damaged anyone that I know. And I know a lot of people. Funny thing - I'm 57. I got spanked. My brothers got spanked. The kids in our neighborhood all got spanked, except for one. His mother didn't believe in spanking. She would even stand up for him and lie to tell that he hadn't done something that everyone knew he had done. Now, the rest of us grew up, got jobs, got married, were responsible, paid our bills on time, loved our families and we all seem to be pretty well adjusted. Funny - that one kid who never got disciplined ended up dying in jail at a young age. He was in trouble throughout his childhood and in jail most of his adult life.

Hmmmmm

jamesand57
Sep 1st 2008, 01:57 PM
My semester will be starting soon and when that happens I will have very little if any time to post here. So this may be my last discussion thread for a while.

So what do you say? is it Biblical to spank or not? There are many verses in the Proverbs that speak in support of spanking. However Liberals mistranslate and retranslate these verses to meet their itching ears. I am definitely in support of spanking.


There is also support for it in hebrews, Liberals reject spanking all together, and there is definately places and ways to abuse it.


Here would be my question, go into a classroom today and ask yourself how the kids are behaving. Are they more respectful than 50 years ago? are they better behaved? Do they have better impulse control?


Unfortunately liberals are Blind guides that never learn from history. When something is broke, they do not react, they merely try to throw more money at a problem. History teaches that used properly, most kids that are subject to such discipline do grow up to become good citizens.

From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

MyGod
Sep 1st 2008, 02:11 PM
My semester will be starting soon and when that happens I will have very little if any time to post here. So this may be my last discussion thread for a while.

So what do you say? is it Biblical to spank or not? There are many verses in the Proverbs that speak in support of spanking. However Liberals mistranslate and retranslate these verses to meet their itching ears. I am definitely in support of spanking.

Well, the bible says "spare the rod, spoil the child." As graceforme pointed out, there's a huge difference between abuse and spanking. I totally agree. If you're spanking your child and it's ineffective, I wouldn't suggest someone continue w/this form of punishment. I don't have children yet but if my husband and I feel we need to spank, we will.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 02:57 PM
There is also support for it in hebrews, Liberals reject spanking all together, and there is definately places and ways to abuse it.

You're going to seperate good parents from bad parents based on whether or not you have labeled them liberal or conservative? :lol: People are much more complex than that, you know.



Here would be my question, go into a classroom today and ask yourself how the kids are behaving. Are they more respectful than 50 years ago? are they better behaved? Do they have better impulse control?

And much of the discipline problems today with children are the result of a mixed bag - not just because children don't get spanked at home.

Many children today at beginning school age face difficulties scholastically and discipline-wise because of several factors, none of which have anything to do with their parents and families being conservative or liberal. Insufficient early brain development due to lack of proper pre-natal care: poor nutrition, alcohol, tobacco, drug use by the mother. Insufficient early brain development due to lack of appropriate post-natal care: too much TV and video games that stimulate the wrong portion of the cerebral cortex keeping the areas that should be stimulated dormant, poor nutrition, lack of proper mental stimulation through reading and counting activities, etc. Then, on top of that, you've got parents who are inattentive, are drug and alcohol abusers, physically, verbally, and mentally abusive, etc. The list goes on and on.



Unfortunately liberals are Blind guides that never learn from history. When something is broke, they do not react, they merely try to throw more money at a problem. History teaches that used properly, most kids that are subject to such discipline do grow up to become good citizens.

Wow. Maybe you should run for president - you seem to have all of this countries ills sown up into one standard: conservatives = good, liberals = bad. If you were running the country you could put all liberals into camps just for them, take their children away and teach them good, conservative discipline (make sure you spank them) and they will all turn out like the good, conservative citizens they should be - they are, after all, the future of the nation...:rolleyes:



From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

Hmmm...let me guess - you're not a teacher, are you? :no:

humbled
Sep 1st 2008, 03:10 PM
Yes it is.

Don't do it when you're mad.

poochie
Sep 1st 2008, 04:36 PM
Except in Fundamentalism.

One major praise for the Fundamentalists is how well behaved they are in comparison to my experience in evangelical circles. The junior high kids are so so well behaved, as well as the college and graduate students.


There is also support for it in hebrews, Liberals reject spanking all together, and there is definately places and ways to abuse it.


Here would be my question, go into a classroom today and ask yourself how the kids are behaving. Are they more respectful than 50 years ago? are they better behaved? Do they have better impulse control?


Unfortunately liberals are Blind guides that never learn from history. When something is broke, they do not react, they merely try to throw more money at a problem. History teaches that used properly, most kids that are subject to such discipline do grow up to become good citizens.

From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

nleeh
Sep 1st 2008, 04:39 PM
Something to ponder on:
Much has been written in the Bible, by ministers and lay people on the subject of teaching parents how to hone their parenting skills which is of great necessity if we are to teach children how to follow rules in a household, learn proper manners and instill in their children boundaries that do not include physical force. It baffles me when the subject of teaching our children comes up that spanking is at the top of the list, as if that is the formost and best way to teach.

There is no doubt that the Old Testament has scriptures that support using the rod, although there is controversy about the meaning of the word rod and its usage but even so, the question today to ask is, is using the rod the tool Jesus wants parents to use when instilling good works and spiritual matters in their children? What was his attitude towards teaching children and man in general? Did he advocate physical punishment as a teaching tool? In what manner did he teach?

In the New Testament, Christ fulfilled the Old testament laws to a higher level of understanding, stressing discipline and direction in a loving manor from within, rather than direction by force from the outside. There is much to be said for the manor in which Jesus taught us that often is not brought to the limelight because 'the rod' is such an easy way to temper a child in the moment. How did Jesus deal with young children and how would he teach?

"I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is great than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him" (John 13:15-16)

ServantofTruth
Sep 1st 2008, 04:41 PM
Is it biblical to refer to others or ourselves as 'liberals' or 'fundamentalists.' I don't remember those in my studies. Lets get rid of the human made groups and look at God's Will/ Wisdom in the bible. :) SofTy.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 04:56 PM
Is it biblical to refer to others or ourselves as 'liberals' or 'fundamentalists.' I don't remember those in my studies. Lets get rid of the human made groups and look at God's Will/ Wisdom in the bible. :) SofTy.

:agree: and :amen:

Emanate
Sep 1st 2008, 04:59 PM
Is it biblical to refer to others or ourselves as 'liberals' or 'fundamentalists.' I don't remember those in my studies. Lets get rid of the human made groups and look at God's Will/ Wisdom in the bible. :) SofTy.


That is a very liberal thing to say

:lol: :spin:

Bethany67
Sep 1st 2008, 05:37 PM
From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

My husband and all bar one in-law (he's a traffic cop) are or were teachers going back decades, and they'd agree with you on this.

I remember the odd boy getting the cane at school in their teen years (with the support of the parents), and the whole school was impeccably behaved for weeks afterwards. But that was back in the late Seventies/early Eighties when it was still legal. My MIL was a headteacher forced into early retirement a few years ago; she told a kid off for swearing at her, and its father barged into her office and tried to strangle her. She got absolutely zero support from the school governors and it effectively finished off her desire to continue teaching; they wouldn't guarantee her physical safety in the school.

lendtay
Sep 1st 2008, 06:13 PM
My MIL was a headteacher forced into early retirement a few years ago; she told a kid off for swearing at her, and its father barged into her office and tried to strangle her. She got absolutely zero support from the school governors and it effectively finished off her desire to continue teaching; they wouldn't guarantee her physical safety in the school.

Its unfortunate that these days, any form of discipline is considered "child abuse". This is often the story behind why a child is kicked out of a daycare or school. The teachers hands are tied, they are not allowed to discipline the child, so they simply have to release him from their care.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 06:20 PM
You're going to seperate good parents from bad parents based on whether or not you have labeled them liberal or conservative? :lol: People are much more complex than that, you know.



And much of the discipline problems today with children are the result of a mixed bag - not just because children don't get spanked at home.

Many children today at beginning school age face difficulties scholastically and discipline-wise because of several factors, none of which have anything to do with their parents and families being conservative or liberal. Insufficient early brain development due to lack of proper pre-natal care: poor nutrition, alcohol, tobacco, drug use by the mother. Insufficient early brain development due to lack of appropriate post-natal care: too much TV and video games that stimulate the wrong portion of the cerebral cortex keeping the areas that should be stimulated dormant, poor nutrition, lack of proper mental stimulation through reading and counting activities, etc. Then, on top of that, you've got parents who are inattentive, are drug and alcohol abusers, physically, verbally, and mentally abusive, etc. The list goes on and on.



Wow. Maybe you should run for president - you seem to have all of this countries ills sown up into one standard: conservatives = good, liberals = bad. If you were running the country you could put all liberals into camps just for them, take their children away and teach them good, conservative discipline (make sure you spank them) and they will all turn out like the good, conservative citizens they should be - they are, after all, the future of the nation...:rolleyes:



Hmmm...let me guess - you're not a teacher, are you? :no:


Okay.....that being said, OL, do you feel that spanking is Biblical?

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 06:41 PM
Okay.....that being said, OL, do you feel that spanking is Biblical?

I believe disciplining a child and directing them in the way they should go is Biblical - but I do not agree with the common belief that "spare the rod, spoil the child" is Biblical.

That saying is actually a paraphrase of Proverbs 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." The "rod" spoken of in this verse in Hebrew is "shebet" - a walking stick, a sceptre, a staff. The shebet was used by shepherds to help direct and reign in sheep and was never used for striking. What the Proverb is actually speaking of is in regard to giving direction to a child when direction is needed, not spanking a child with a stick or switch.

As an aside: did you know that there are actually companies in the US that manufacture and sell whipping devices for the sole purpose of child discipline and recommend spanking kids with these devices as early as 15 mos. of age? They advertise the whipping devices as being a endorsed by Proverbs 13:24... :cry:

nleeh
Sep 1st 2008, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by jamesand57 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1771430#post1771430)
From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

Let's keep in mind that many parents are not educated in well rounded parenting skills. Spanking is but one form of a disiplinary measure, be it used or not, there is much more needed to raise well behaved, healthy children. I've seen good Christian parents and not so good ones and the same goes for the general public. To say that parents have failed because some parents do not spank is ruling out how the parents not only manage their children but how they manage themselves. Again, as a manner of disiplin, spanking is not the be all and end all of good child rearing.

Bethany67
Sep 1st 2008, 06:47 PM
The "rod" spoken of in this verse in Hebrew is "shebet" - a walking stick, a sceptre, a staff.

Why does Ps 23:4 distinguish between a rod and a staff? What does the Hebrew say there?

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 06:48 PM
I believe disciplining a child and directing them in the way they should go is Biblical - but I do not agree with the common belief that "spare the rod, spoil the child" is Biblical.

That saying is actually a paraphrase of Proverbs 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." The "rod" spoken of in this verse in Hebrew is "shebet" - a walking stick, a sceptre, a staff. The shebet was used by shepherds to help direct and reign in sheep and was never used for striking. What the Proverb is actually speaking of is in regard to giving direction to a child when direction is needed, not spanking a child with a stick or switch.

The Proverb, as well as the other instances where chasteneth is used, pertains to someone getting a wooping.

"Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee." - Deuteronomy 8:5

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." - Proverbs 13:24

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." - Hebrews 12:6

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" - Hebrews 12:7
As an aside: did you know that there are actually companies in the US that manufacture and sell whipping devices for the sole purpose of child discipline and recommend spanking kids with these devices as early as 15 mos. of age? They advertise the whipping devices as being a endorsed by Proverbs 13:24... :cry: At what age do you believe people should begin to love their child?

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by jamesand57 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1771430#post1771430)
From the last few years, I would say the 'no to spanking' crowd are a dismal failure in their discipline models.

Let's keep in mind that many parents are not educated in well rounded parenting skills. Spanking is but one form of a disiplinary measure, be it used or not, there is much more needed to raise well behaved, healthy children. I've seen good Christian parents and not so good ones and the same goes for the general public. To say that parents have failed because some parents do not spank is ruling out how the parents not only manage their children but how they manage themselves. Again, as a manner of disiplin, spanking is not the be all and end all of good child rearing. It is a tool provided by God for the proper training of children and, if it is not used, the Bible says the parents that do such hate their children.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 07:06 PM
Why does Ps 23:4 distinguish between a rod and a staff? What does the Hebrew say there?

In Psalm 23:4 you have:

rod = shebet = sceptre/mark of authority/shepherding tool

staff = mish'enah = instrument of support

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 07:13 PM
The Proverb, as well as the other instances where chasteneth is used, pertains to someone getting a wooping.

No, it doesn't. You're reading into what is actually being said based on a misguided tradition of man, not the Word of God.



At what age do you believe people should begin to love their child?

Was that question asked because you really want to know the answer? Somehow I get the feeling that you are intentionally looking for a fight here...

Bethany67
Sep 1st 2008, 07:13 PM
Thanks for that. So the staff would be for the shepherd to support himself with as he walks along? Would the rod also function as a walking stick? What were they traditionally made of - different types of wood?

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 07:16 PM
No, it doesn't. You're reading into what is actually being said based on a misguided tradition of man, not the Word of God.



Was that question asked because you really want to know the answer? Somehow I get the feeling that you are intentionally looking for a fight here... If I was intentionally looking for a fight, I would go to work on your name. It was a serious question. What age should corporal discipline be applied according to the Holy Bible?

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 07:30 PM
If I was intentionally looking for a fight, I would go to work on your name.

Well, you just did, didn't you?



It was a serious question. What age should corporal discipline be applied according to the Holy Bible?

How I would answer this depends on what your definition of "corporal punishment" is.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 1st 2008, 07:31 PM
I think that as long as it is out of love for the child, then 'spanking' can be a good thing.

Having 3 children (all now grown up) I found that (as a last resort) different methods of discipline were more effective with each one. My eldest responded better to spanking, but one of my children responded better to being grounded, and the other responded better to having their pocket money held.

It used to be that I often took my anger out on the children, which was very wrong not matter what method of discipline I used.
We have to learn how to reflect our Heavenly Father, by being slow to anger and swift to bless. Be patient and long suffering. Leave room for confession, repentance and forgiveness.
If a child becomes too fearful of being disciplined, they may be very fearful to confess any wrong, and that may lead to other wrongs, such as lying or false accusations.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 07:42 PM
I think that as long as it is out of love for the child, then 'spanking' can be a good thing.

Having 3 children (all now grown up) I found that (as a last resort) different methods of discipline were more effective with each one. My eldest responded better to spanking, but one of my children responded better to being grounded, and the other responded better to having their pocket money held.

It used to be that I often took my anger out on the children, which was very wrong not matter what method of discipline I used.
We have to learn how to reflect our Heavenly Father, by being slow to anger and swift to bless. Be patient and long suffering. Leave room for confession, repentance and forgiveness.
If a child becomes too fearful of being disciplined, they may be very fearful to confess any wrong, and that may lead to other wrongs, such as lying or false accusations.

You have offered very wise, and thoughtful advice here. :pp

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 07:45 PM
Well, you just did, didn't you? No. I used it as an example of how restrained I'm being.


How I would answer this depends on what your definition of "corporal punishment" is. Applying the board of education to the seat of learning.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 08:05 PM
No. I used it as an example of how restrained I'm being.

So you are capable of becoming less tolerant of those you don't agree with than you are now? Wow.



Applying the board of education to the seat of learning.

Cute (not).

Sorry, but there's nothing in the Bible about neither the "board of education" nor "the seat of learning". Now, if you have a serious question regarding Scripture, I'm more than willing to do my best to answer you. Otherwise, all you're doing is wasting everyone's time trying to be clever and dancing around the issue with colloquialisms. If you have a specific Scripture reference in mind, please provide it.

Thanks.

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 08:42 PM
So you are capable of becoming less tolerant of those you don't agree with than you are now? Wow. Impressive ain't it.




Cute (not).

Sorry, but there's nothing in the Bible about neither the "board of education" nor "the seat of learning". Now, if you have a serious question regarding Scripture, I'm more than willing to do my best to answer you. Otherwise, all you're doing is wasting everyone's time trying to be clever and dancing around the issue with colloquialisms. If you have a specific Scripture reference in mind, please provide it.

Thanks. I have no questions of you regarding scripture.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 08:48 PM
Yes, spanking is perfectly Biblical.

Prov. 23:13,14 Do not withold correction from a child
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die
You shall beat him with a rod
And deliver his soul from hell

livingwaters
Sep 1st 2008, 08:51 PM
The thread on this board, "Families in Christ" is also debating this topic.

Hope school treats you well, Poochie!!!

God Bless:)

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 08:56 PM
Yes, spanking is perfectly Biblical.

Prov. 23:13,14 Do not withold correction from a child
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die
You shall beat him with a rod
And deliver his soul from hell Good passage. It would sound as though some would prefer to send children to hell than to beat them with the rod.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 09:03 PM
Impressive ain't it.

From this comment I believe I can safely say that I was correct in my earlier assessment re: you looking for a fight...:rolleyes:



I have no questions of you regarding scripture.

Well, you did earlier... So now you're saying you don't? :confused
Let me see...I think there's something about that kind of internal confusion found in James 1:8 - "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways".

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. ;)

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 09:12 PM
Good passage. It would sound as though some would prefer to send children to hell than to beat them with the rod.

Thankfully, my own parents cared more about my soul than about their emotions

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 09:14 PM
Yes, spanking is perfectly Biblical.

Prov. 23:13,14 Do not withold correction from a child
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die
You shall beat him with a rod
And deliver his soul from hell

Unfortunately, the version quoted above uses the English word "beat" in its translation of the Hebrew word "nakah". Nakah can mean "strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". So why have the editors of the version you quoted chosen to use the more severe of the six possibilities? Surely you do not advocate beating a child, do you? :eek:

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 09:26 PM
Thankfully, my own parents cared more about my soul than about their emotions Amen. What a blessing.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 09:28 PM
Unfortunately, the version quoted above uses the English word "beat" in its translation of the Hebrew word "nakah". Nakah can mean "strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". So why have the editors of the version you quoted chosen to use the more severe of the six possibilities? Surely you do not advocate beating a child, do you? :eek:

Oh, no, of course not...and I don't know why they chose to use that term.

Which term do you think would have been more appropriate?

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 09:29 PM
Unfortunately, the version quoted above uses the English word "beat" in its translation of the Hebrew word "nakah". Nakah can mean "strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". So why have the editors of the version you quoted chosen to use the more severe of the six possibilities? Surely you do not advocate beating a child, do you? :eek: Umm, wouldn't "kill" or "slay" be more severe than "beat"?

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 09:31 PM
Oh, no, of course not...and I don't know why they chose to use that term.

Which term do you think would have been more appropriate?

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe that "strike" fits in best with spanking (which, BTW, I am not against as long as it is applied wisely, in moderation, and without anger).

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 09:32 PM
Umm, wouldn't "kill" or "slay" be more severe than "beat"?

Yes. That's why I said "more severe" and not "most severe".

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 09:32 PM
(which, BTW, I am not against as long as it is applied wisely, in moderation, and without anger).

I definitely think that is key

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 10:59 PM
Yes. That's why I said "more severe" and not "most severe".

You said...


"Nakah can mean "strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". So why have the editors of the version you quoted chosen to use the more severe of the six possibilities?"

They used "beat" which you asked why they chose to use the more severe of the six possibilities. That would make strike, smite, hit, slay and kill the lesser severe possibilities and unless you believe slay, and kill to be less severe than beat, your statement is in error. They chose a lesser severe term of the six possibilities, than the more severe possibilities.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 1st 2008, 11:01 PM
Amen. What a blessing.


lol

Well, at the time I didn't think so.

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 11:03 PM
You said...

"Nakah can mean "strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". So why have the editors of the version you quoted chosen to use the more severe of the six possibilities?"

They used "beat" which you asked why they chose to use the more severe of the six possibilities. That would make strike, smite, hit, slay and kill the lesser severe possibilities and unless you believe slay, and kill to be less severe than beat, your statement is in error. They chose a lesser severe term of the six possibilities, than the more severe possibilities.

Maybe you didn't learn about comparatives and superlatives in school...?

In the list of six, strike and smite are least, hit and beat are more, slay and kill are most. Okey-dokey?

Rufus_1611
Sep 1st 2008, 11:09 PM
Maybe you didn't learn about comparatives and superlatives in school...? No, I'm pretty dumb.


In the list of six, strike and smite are least, hit and beat are more, slay and kill are most. Okey-dokey? So what's the problem then? Are you comfortable with "beat" or hath God not really said this?

OrdainedLady
Sep 1st 2008, 11:34 PM
No, I'm pretty dumb.

So what's the problem then? Are you comfortable with "beat" or hath God not really said this?

No, I'm definitely not comfortable with "beat", Rufus. Are you?

And as far as what God "hath" said or "hath" not said, I'm also pretty sure that God doesn't speak in King James English. And I do not believe that the 47 Anglican scholars were true to the Masoretic texts of the Tanakh when they wrote the KJV. I also believe that they didn't take the nuances of the Hebrew langauge into consideration when they "translated" the Masoretic texts nor the subtleties of the Greek language in the Textus Receptus.

Back to Proverbs 23:13 - Jewish scholars agree that Proverbs is a book of poetry and the Hebrew language of the Tanakh (Old Testament) is a language that uses a lot of symbolism, metaphors, and exaggerations to illustrate various points. Because of the poetry contained within Proverbs, it is logical that the writer would use a tool well-known to Hebrew speakers/readers to form an impressionable image or metaphor to illustrate authority.

The brutal fact is that thousands of children die each year in the US because they have been beaten for various reasons - not the least of which is because of over-zealous parents who didn't believe in "sparing the rod".

IMO, to suggest that God commands us to beat our children just because the KJV says so is horrific and disgusting beyond my imagination.

Partaker of Christ
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:04 AM
Lets have a party and start stoning them:(

nleeh
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:16 AM
It is a tool provided by God for the proper training of children and, if it is not used, the Bible says the parents that do such hate their children.

Oh my, hate my children? No way, didn't happen, never will and didn't use physical force for them to mature into outstanding Christian adults with children of their own. I used the rod/staff. It was in the form of direction, guidance, appropriate consequences, firmness and stability to name a few. They certainly turned out better than Prince Rehoboam, King Solomon's son.

With that said, I understand that a smack on the behind is not going to make a child into a monster in his/her later years, but woe, I've seen some Christians take it to the ultimate limit. One time at a Bible conference I saw a woman beat her child over and over and it was appaling to watch this babe on her lap be brutalized.

nleeh
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:22 AM
Thank you. That definately clears up a lot up about the meaning of Proverbs 23:13.


No, I'm definitely not comfortable with "beat", Rufus. Are you?

And as far as what God "hath" said or "hath" not said, I'm also pretty sure that God doesn't speak in King James English. And I do not believe that the 47 Anglican scholars were true to the Masoretic texts of the Tanakh when they wrote the KJV. I also believe that they didn't take the nuances of the Hebrew langauge into consideration when they "translated" the Masoretic texts nor the subtleties of the Greek language in the Textus Receptus.

Back to Proverbs 23:13 - Jewish scholars agree that Proverbs is a book of poetry and the Hebrew language of the Tanakh (Old Testament) is a language that uses a lot of symbolism, metaphors, and exaggerations to illustrate various points. Because of the poetry contained within Proverbs, it is logical that the writer would use a tool well-known to Hebrew speakers/readers to form an impressionable image or metaphor to illustrate authority.

The brutal fact is that thousands of children die each year in the US because they have been beaten for various reasons - not the least of which is because of over-zealous parents who didn't believe in "sparing the rod".

IMO, to suggest that God commands us to beat our children just because the KJV says so is horrific and disgusting beyond my imagination.

Rufus_1611
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:29 AM
No, I'm definitely not comfortable with "beat", Rufus. Are you? Yes. I'm quite comfortable with thus saith the Lord.


And as far as what God "hath" said or "hath" not said, I'm also pretty sure that God doesn't speak in King James English. And I do not believe that the 47 Anglican scholars were true to the Masoretic texts of the Tanakh when they wrote the KJV. I also believe that they didn't take the nuances of the Hebrew langauge into consideration when they "translated" the Masoretic texts nor the subtleties of the Greek language in the Textus Receptus.

Back to Proverbs 23:13 - Jewish scholars agree that Proverbs is a book of poetry and the Hebrew language of the Tanakh (Old Testament) is a language that uses a lot of symbolism, metaphors, and exaggerations to illustrate various points. Because of the poetry contained within Proverbs, it is logical that the writer would use a tool well-known to Hebrew speakers/readers to form an impressionable image or metaphor to illustrate authority.

The brutal fact is that thousands of children die each year in the US because they have been beaten for various reasons - not the least of which is because of over-zealous parents who didn't believe in "sparing the rod". There's a Christian way to chastise and a heathen way. Don't blame the heathen ways on the Christian ways.


IMO, to suggest that God commands us to beat our children just because the KJV says so is horrific and disgusting beyond my imagination. That's all fine and dandy but the book Welder quoted from wasn't even the KJV. What English translation of the Bible do you believe in and let's argue out of that one?

Proverbs 23:13

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." - KJV

"Withholde not correction from the chylde: for if thou beatest hym with the rodde, he shall not dye thereof:" - Bishop's

"Witholde not correccion from ye childe, for yf thou beatest him wt the rodde, he shal not dye therof." - Miles Coverdale

"Withhold not correction from the child; [For] if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die." - American Standard Version

"Don't withhold correction from a youth; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - Holman Christian Standard

"Withhold not correction from the child: [for] if thou beat him with the rod, he shall not die." - English Revised Version

"Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - NKJV

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - Revised Standard Version

"Do not withhold discipline from your children; if you beat them with a rod, they will not die." - NRSV

"Don't withhold discipline from a child -if you beat him with a stick, he won't die!" - The Complete Jewish Bible

"Do not withhold chastisement from a child; for if you beat him, he will not die." - Pe****ta-Lamsa

"Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." - Webster's Bible

OrdainedLady
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:14 AM
Yes. I'm quite comfortable with thus saith the Lord.

I see. You're comfortable believing that, even if the Lord probably didn't say everything you're attributing to Him. Well, that's certainly your right. We are all given free will, after all.



There's a Christian way to chastise and a heathen way. Don't blame the heathen ways on the Christian ways.

I suppose that line of thinking would work if none of the children that died didn't perish due to the beatings given to them by parents who claim to be Christian and just following what their Bible told them to do.



That's all fine and dandy but the book Welder quoted from wasn't even the KJV. What English translation of the Bible do you believe in and let's argue out of that one?

Proverbs 23:13

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." - KJV

"Withholde not correction from the chylde: for if thou beatest hym with the rodde, he shall not dye thereof:" - Bishop's

"Witholde not correccion from ye childe, for yf thou beatest him wt the rodde, he shal not dye therof." - Miles Coverdale

"Withhold not correction from the child; [For] if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die." - American Standard Version

"Don't withhold correction from a youth; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - Holman Christian Standard

"Withhold not correction from the child: [for] if thou beat him with the rod, he shall not die." - English Revised Version

"Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - NKJV

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die." - Revised Standard Version

"Do not withhold discipline from your children; if you beat them with a rod, they will not die." - NRSV

"Don't withhold discipline from a child -if you beat him with a stick, he won't die!" - The Complete Jewish Bible

"Do not withhold chastisement from a child; for if you beat him, he will not die." - Pe****ta-Lamsa

"Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." - Webster's Bible

How convenient that you chose versions that only show "beat" in Proverbs 23:13. And BTW, your dodge of the fact that Proverbs is considered a poetic and metaphorical book by both Christian and Jewish Bible scholars alike is noted.

But since you asked, my Bible version of choice for 31 years has been the NASB. I find it to be the most compatible with the original Masoretic Text and the Textus Receptus. It's not perfect (what Bible version is?), but since I am supposed to be one who studies and rightly divides the Word anyway, it doesn't matter that it's not perfect.

But let's be real here: I'm not interested in arguing with you any more on this subject than I have already lowered my standards to do here. :B If you wish to continue this fruitless debate, you may continue it with someone else (or yourself if you're so inclined). :giveup: If it makes you feel better and more empowered, feel free to consider this a "victory" for yourself and the legalism you so tightly cling to.

Rufus_1611
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:45 AM
I see. You're comfortable believing that, even if the Lord probably didn't say everything you're attributing to Him. Well, that's certainly your right. We are all given free will, after all. It's in the Book, so I believe it. I can't help it if that offends you.


I suppose that line of thinking would work if none of the children that died didn't perish due to the beatings given to them by parents who claim to be Christian and just following what their Bible told them to do. "Claim to be Christian" but are not, would equal heathen.


How convenient that you chose versions that only show "beat" in Proverbs 23:13. I intended to, for the examples are many. Would you desire I showed you the ones that say "smite"? Are you uncomfortable with "beat" but cool with "smite"?


And BTW, your dodge of the fact that Proverbs is considered a poetic and metaphorical book by both Christian and Jewish Bible scholars alike is noted. I couldn't care less what "Christian and Jewish Bible scholars" think. I am a Christian, my book is the Holy Bible. I read it, I believe it, and I try hard to apply it. The Proverbs contains incomprehensible wisdom and great blessings when they are followed and no book of the Holy Bible should be cast aside as mere "poetry or metaphor". Btw...what do your scholars say about 2 Timothy 3:16?


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" - 2 Timothy 3:16


But since you asked, my Bible version of choice for 31 years has been the NASB.

Alright, your Bible of choice says...


"Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die." - Proverbs 23:13
...hath God said beat, smite, or strike? Regardless, how does it change the significance of what is to be obeyed?


I find it to be the most compatible with the original Masoretic Text and the Textus Receptus. NASB and the Textus Receptus?


"In the updated NASB, consideration was given to the latest available manuscripts with a view to determining the best Greek text. In most instances, the 26th edition of Nestle-Alandís Novum Testamentum Graece was closely followed. Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia also was employed together with the most recent light from lexicography, cognate languages, and the Dead Sea Scrolls." - (Source: http://www.lockman.org/nasb/nasbcmp.php)


It's not perfect (what Bible version is?), The Authorized Version.


but since I am supposed to be one who studies and rightly divides the Word anyway, it doesn't matter that it's not perfect.

But let's be real here: I'm not interested in arguing with you any more on this subject than I have already lowered my standards to do here. :B I apologize for the damage I have done to your standards. I pray that you'll be able to recover and raise your standards back to their previous levels.


If you wish to continue this fruitless debate, you may continue it with someone else (or yourself if you're so inclined). :giveup: If it makes you feel better and more empowered, feel free to consider this a "victory" for yourself and the legalism you so tightly cling to. I have no claim to "legalism" and you are witnessing falsely against me. I believe in free grace salvation and I believe even the most rebellious Christian believers are saved. However, I don't believe Father is going to spare the rod when He gets home and I do believe He will beat His unrepentant, disobedient children.


"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." - Luke 12:47
Regardless, I wish you well sister. Grace and peace to ya.

OrdainedLady
Sep 2nd 2008, 04:57 AM
NASB and the Textus Receptus?

My bad. I had written Textus Receptus several times today and got carried away. I should have said "Nestle Greek Text".

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:24 AM
One time at a Bible conference I saw a woman beat her child over and over and it was appaling to watch this babe on her lap be brutalized.

Why on earth would she do it in public?

graceforme
Sep 2nd 2008, 11:19 AM
I think that as long as it is out of love for the child, then 'spanking' can be a good thing.

Having 3 children (all now grown up) I found that (as a last resort) different methods of discipline were more effective with each one. My eldest responded better to spanking, but one of my children responded better to being grounded, and the other responded better to having their pocket money held.

It used to be that I often took my anger out on the children, which was very wrong not matter what method of discipline I used.
We have to learn how to reflect our Heavenly Father, by being slow to anger and swift to bless. Be patient and long suffering. Leave room for confession, repentance and forgiveness.
If a child becomes too fearful of being disciplined, they may be very fearful to confess any wrong, and that may lead to other wrongs, such as lying or false accusations.


Wise words, partaker. One of the things we should always remember is never to spank a child out of anger. When I spanked my kids, I always gave them hugs, and told them, "I love you too much to allow you to behave that way." Love, not anger. And you are right. I had a step-daughter who I could have beaten to death and she would have just stood there, staring at me - not a tear in sight. Withholding something she really wanted (like allowance or TV privileges) seemed to work best for her. My youngest daughter - all I had to do was give her a little swat on the behind and she got the idea very quickly. I can only remember having to swat her a few times throughout her childhood. My son - now there was a different story. He was often determined to do it his own way, not our way. He'd do something he was told not to do, then when he'd get caught, I'd ask him, "Why did you do that? You knew you would get spanked." He'd look up at me with those great big baby-blues, throw his hands up in the air, and say, "I don't know Mom, I just couldn't help myself!" It was very hard to discipline him after that, but it had to be done." He grew up to be a fine young man and responsible adult, and now we laugh about that.

Discipline has to be fair, and applied only when a child is rebellious, not when they are using childish judgment. When they use childish judgment (which is common, since they are children), they need to be re-directed, not punished.

The biggest problem today is that, when spanking was written off as being abusive, all discipline seemed to disappear with it. I work in a grocery story and you wouldn't believe the things I see kids doing and the parents just go along like they don't even know the kids are with them. And the kids are very young. It makes me wonder what they'll be like when they're teenagers. My husband works in a local high school, and the things the kids do there is almost unbelievable. When no disclipline is applied, the kids grow up having no respect for the property or rights of others. And I see this every day. One of the biggest problems is that kids spend much time with no adult supervision, because Mom and Dad are both working. Whether Mom working is necessary or not really isn't the issue, but I see the guilt in so many Moms who don't have time to spend with their kids, so they don't want to spend the time they do have with them disciplining them.

I think one of the first signs of a lack of discipline is when you see a parent pushing an empty stroller - and carrying the baby. Baby cries because he/she doesn't want to ride in the stroller. So what happens? Mom or Dad get the baby out of the stroller - after all we all know it hurts babies to cry, right? Then they push the empty stroller and carry the now happy, smiling baby. Why is baby so happy? Because he/she has already gained control over Mom/Dad, and gotten baby's own way. Now, there may be instances where it is really necessary to take baby out of stroller. But the majority of the time, it's only because that little one just doesn't want to ride there.

Okay, I'll get off my "soapbox" now.
Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day.