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ananias
Sep 1st 2008, 07:40 PM
The Lord appeared to a Jew, but the Jew did not recognize Him, and he was blinded. Once having been blinded, the Jew did not seek to go and stay in “the house of God” – instead he chose to go and live in “the house of Judas”. But God sent another Jew to him to share the gospel with him, and the Holy Spirit opened his eyes so that he might see and understand.

His name, of course was Paul.

Then Paul, having a Jewish background and a correct understanding of the root of his faith, went and taught the Gentiles – but he developed problems:

First, many of Paul’s fellow-Jews began to bewitch the Gentile converts, teaching them that IN ADDITION to their faith in the righteousness and blood of Israel’s Messiah, they MUST ALSO observe the Biblical Law and the Festivals – which were a type of, and pointed to, the Messiah and His salvation – and that they MUST ALSO be circumcised in their flesh – even though these Gentiles WERE ALREADY circumcised, having been circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit of God.

And so many of the Gentile converts were thus led astray, and fell from grace.

But there was another problem of false doctrine that Paul had to fight against: The doctrine of the Gentiles, who said, “The natural branches of the tree (nation of Israel) attempted to cut off the righteous BRANCH, and so the FIRST tree (nation of Israel) has been superseded by a NEW tree.”

So he corrected their false doctrine, telling them that even though the unbelieving natural branches which had done this, had been broken off, there was yet a remnant of the branches that did not behave in this way and that DID believe (Rom.11: 1-5), and the Gentiles who believe, are grafted in among them, to share with them in the root and the fatness of the FIRST, ORIGINAL tree (Rom.11: 17); and that these Gentiles, too, are therefore now:-

(1) The seed of Abraham (Gal.3: 29); and

(2) Jews (Rom.2: 28-29).

This tree (nation of Israel) of course, is the tree that was planted by God, and from which sprung Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, the prophets, David, and the Messiah.

And to answer the conceit of the Gentile branches, Paul also reminded them:-

(1) That they do not support the root of the tree, but the root of the tree supports them; and

(2) That if the natural branches which have been broken off repent, then they, too, will be grafted back into their own tree (nation of Israel) again – not into a “NEW” tree (since the first tree had not been superseded by a “NEW” tree), but back into their own tree again – the same tree from which they had been broken off (Rom.11: 23-24); and

(3) Just in case the Gentile branches would still remain conceited because most of the natural branches had been broken off, Paul also revealed a MYSTERY to them (Rom.11: 25), saying that even though a hardening had happened to the tree at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off, this was only a hardening in part (the part which had been broken off), and that this state of affairs will continue only UNTIL the full number of the Gentile branches who would believe and be grafted in, had come in.

Once the full number of the Gentile branches have come in, said Paul, then just as God had mercy on the Gentile branches through the unbelief of most of the natural branches (even though the Gentile branches were themselves still unbelievers at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off), so God will, when the time comes, have mercy on the remnant of the natural branches again (through the mercy He had shown the Gentile branches, even though the Gentile branches were themselves still in unbelief at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off) (Rom.11: 25-33). Therefore when the time comes, God Himself will turn ungodliness away from the natural branches and have mercy upon them, said Paul. (Rom.11: 25-33).

But unfortunately, the idea in the mind of the Gentile branches that a new tree had superseded the first, original tree, was compounded by the fact that the Gentile branches had become confused – a confusion brought about through the fact that all the individual branches of the tree (whether the natural branches or the Gentile branches which are grafted in among them) together make up a NEW temple where the Spirit of God dwells.

Having failed to identify and understand the paradox that although one cannot be a part of the temple unless one is also part of the tree (the nation of Israel) (and yet the temple is not the tree), the Gentile branches insisted all the more that just as there is a new temple (a New Testament temple), so there is a new tree (a New Testament Israel).

So even though Paul went to such great length to correct the false doctrines which were so prevalent in his day, time has gone full-circle, and today the same false doctrines that Paul fought against, are afflicting the disciples of the Messiah of Israel again – many of the Gentile branches have never learned these particular lessons of Paul. :B

Emanate
Sep 1st 2008, 09:03 PM
First, many of Paul’s fellow-Jews began to bewitch the Gentile converts, teaching them that IN ADDITION to their faith in the righteousness and blood of Israel’s Messiah, they MUST ALSO observe the Biblical Law and the Festivals – which were a type of, and pointed to, the Messiah and His salvation – and that they MUST ALSO be circumcised in their flesh – even though these Gentiles WERE ALREADY circumcised, having been circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit of God.

This is a typical misunderstanding. What Paul taught against was teaching Gentile believers that they must be circumsized i.e. convert to Judaism to be saved. It was not because Gentiles thought they could observe what the bible calls "God's appointed times" and "delight. Yes, it is by Messiah we are circumsized, not beacause of Torah or conversion to Judaism. Fact of the matter is Jews in the first century did not teach Gentiles to keep God's Instruction, they taught Gentiles to observe Jewish Law. We can all agree that is wrong.

ananias
Sep 1st 2008, 10:13 PM
This is a typical misunderstanding. What Paul taught against was teaching Gentile believers that they must be circumsized i.e. convert to Judaism to be saved. It was not because Gentiles thought they could observe what the bible calls "God's appointed times" and "delight. Yes, it is by Messiah we are circumsized, not beacause of Torah or conversion to Judaism. Fact of the matter is Jews in the first century did not teach Gentiles to keep God's Instruction, they taught Gentiles to observe Jewish Law. We can all agree that is wrong.

Thanks, Emanate.

I love the Mo'adim (God's appointed times which are called "the Feasts of the LORD" in English), because I understand how each detail of the mo'adim teaches about our Messiah, and I don't have any problem with Gentiles celebrating the mo'adim - if they do so by choice. But if they do so because they believe they MUST, then they are as way off as the Gentiles who say they MUST NOT.

ananias.

Emanate
Sep 1st 2008, 10:50 PM
Thanks, Emanate.

I love the Mo'adim (God's appointed times which are called "the Feasts of the LORD" in English), because I understand how each detail of the mo'adim teaches about our Messiah, and I don't have any problem with Gentiles celebrating the mo'adim - if they do so by choice. But if they do so because they believe they MUST, then they are as way off as the Gentiles who say they MUST NOT.

ananias.


Alright, gotcha. I agree with your statement. People forgot about your last line. Well Put.

RogerW
Sep 2nd 2008, 02:09 AM
The Lord appeared to a Jew, but the Jew did not recognize Him, and he was blinded. Once having been blinded, the Jew did not seek to go and stay in “the house of God” – instead he chose to go and live in “the house of Judas”. But God sent another Jew to him to share the gospel with him, and the Holy Spirit opened his eyes so that he might see and understand.

His name, of course was Paul.

Then Paul, having a Jewish background and a correct understanding of the root of his faith, went and taught the Gentiles – but he developed problems:

First, many of Paul’s fellow-Jews began to bewitch the Gentile converts, teaching them that IN ADDITION to their faith in the righteousness and blood of Israel’s Messiah, they MUST ALSO observe the Biblical Law and the Festivals – which were a type of, and pointed to, the Messiah and His salvation – and that they MUST ALSO be circumcised in their flesh – even though these Gentiles WERE ALREADY circumcised, having been circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit of God.

And so many of the Gentile converts were thus led astray, and fell from grace.

But there was another problem of false doctrine that Paul had to fight against: The doctrine of the Gentiles, who said, “The natural branches of the tree (nation of Israel) attempted to cut off the righteous BRANCH, and so the FIRST tree (nation of Israel) has been superseded by a NEW tree.”

So he corrected their false doctrine, telling them that even though the unbelieving natural branches which had done this, had been broken off, there was yet a remnant of the branches that did not behave in this way and that DID believe (Rom.11: 1-5), and the Gentiles who believe, are grafted in among them, to share with them in the root and the fatness of the FIRST, ORIGINAL tree (Rom.11: 17); and that these Gentiles, too, are therefore now:-

(1) The seed of Abraham (Gal.3: 29); and

(2) Jews (Rom.2: 28-29).

This tree (nation of Israel) of course, is the tree that was planted by God, and from which sprung Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, the prophets, David, and the Messiah.

Greetings Ananias,

In dealing with Ro 11 Paul sometimes speaks of natural Israel, and sometimes he speaks of supernatural or Spiritual Israel...Israel of God. To understand Ro 11 we must know when Paul is speaking of the natural, and when he is speaking of the supernatural or Spiritual.

The tree that is planted by God came supernaturally, not naturally. The tree that contained the true remnant, or Spiritual Israel is from the nation of Israel, but it is not the natural it is the Spiritual Israel. It is the true Spiritual Israel that comes through the Seed (Christ).



And to answer the conceit of the Gentile branches, Paul also reminded them:-

(1) That they do not support the root of the tree, but the root of the tree supports them; and

(2) That if the natural branches which have been broken off repent, then they, too, will be grafted back into their own tree (nation of Israel) again – not into a “NEW” tree (since the first tree had not been superseded by a “NEW” tree), but back into their own tree again – the same tree from which they had been broken off (Rom.11: 23-24); and

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches [natural Israel] be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree [Gentiles], wert graffed in among them, [Spiritual Israel] and with them partakest of the root [Christ] and fatness of the olive tree; [Spiritual Israel]

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they [natural Israel] were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches [natural Israel in unbelief], take heed lest he also spare not thee. [Gentiles too will not be spared if they remain in unbelief]

Ro 11:23 And they also, if they [natural Israel] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:[Spiritual Israel] how much more shall these, [natural Israel] which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [Spiritual Israel]

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [natural Israel was blinded; Spiritual Israel was not] until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [come in to Spiritual Israel]
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel [Spiritual Israel, consisting of Jew and Gentile believers] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, [Spiritual Israel] when I shall take away their sins.
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they [natural Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they [Spiritual Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [Salvation came through the Spiritual Seed (Christ) of Abraham]

Ro 11:30 For as ye [Gentiles] in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [natural Israel] unbelief:
Ro 11:31 Even so have these [natural Israel] also now not believed, that through your mercy [Gentiles bringing the gospel to them] they [natural Israel] also may obtain mercy.
Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all [Gentiles and natural Israel] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.




(3) Just in case the Gentile branches would still remain conceited because most of the natural branches had been broken off, Paul also revealed a MYSTERY to them (Rom.11: 25), saying that even though a hardening had happened to the tree at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off, this was only a hardening in part (the part which had been broken off), and that this state of affairs will continue only UNTIL the full number of the Gentile branches who would believe and be grafted in, had come in.

The hardening is only in part because Spiritual Israel; i.e. elect remnant, was never hardened. Only natural Israel was hardened. The hardening continues until all the elect Gentiles come into the true Israel - the Israel of God.



Once the full number of the Gentile branches have come in, said Paul, then just as God had mercy on the Gentile branches through the unbelief of most of the natural branches (even though the Gentile branches were themselves still unbelievers at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off), so God will, when the time comes, have mercy on the remnant of the natural branches again (through the mercy He had shown the Gentile branches, even though the Gentile branches were themselves still in unbelief at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off) (Rom.11: 25-33). Therefore when the time comes, God Himself will turn ungodliness away from the natural branches and have mercy upon them, said Paul. (Rom.11: 25-33).

Ungodliness will be turned away from true Israel, the Israel of God, consisting of both Jew and Gentiles.



But unfortunately, the idea in the mind of the Gentile branches that a new tree had superseded the first, original tree, was compounded by the fact that the Gentile branches had become confused – a confusion brought about through the fact that all the individual branches of the tree (whether the natural branches or the Gentile branches which are grafted in among them) together make up a NEW temple where the Spirit of God dwells.

Not a new tree, but the True Tree; the Israel of God; Spiritual Israel. The True Israel did indeed come through the nation of Israel, but the Seed of Abraham was never a natural seed, but a Spiritual Seed; i.e. Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:58 AM
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Greetings Ananias,


(1)

In dealing with Ro 11 Paul sometimes speaks of natural Israel, and sometimes he speaks of supernatural or Spiritual Israel...Israel of God. To understand Ro 11 we must know when Paul is speaking of the natural, and when he is speaking of the supernatural or Spiritual.

The tree that is planted by God came supernaturally, not naturally. The tree that contained the true remnant, or Spiritual Israel is from the nation of Israel, but it is not the natural it is the Spiritual Israel. It is the true Spiritual Israel that comes through the Seed (Christ).

(2)

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel [Spiritual Israel, consisting of Jew and Gentile believers] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ro 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, [Spiritual Israel] when I shall take away their sins.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi, Roger. Thanks for your reply.

(1) God never created two Israel's (a "natural" Israel + a "spiritual" Israel) when he called Abraham out of the country he was living in, and promised him (a) that Sarah would become pregnant and bear him a son, and that through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the earth will be blessed; and (b) that God would be God to (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants forever.

There were always (a) those of Abraham's descendants who did not believe (such as those who fell in the wilderness during the exodus-period); and (b) Gentiles who were being grafted into Israel (such as Ruth).

The unbelieving descendants of Israel (of Abraham) showed through their unbelief that they were not truly Israel - it was not because there were "two Israels" (a "natural" Israel and a "spiritual" Israel). Paul's states this in Romans 9: 6-9.

To talk about a "natural" Israel and a "spiritual" Israel (two different types of Israel) is practicing eisegesis with the whole Bible, in my opinion.

The unbelieving branches were broken off because they showed by their unbelief that they were never truly part of Israel - of whom the father is believing Abraham.

(2) God does not need to turn away unbelief (ungodliness) from the believing Jew or the believing Gentile, who have been grafted into one and the same Israel which came into being when Isaac was born. JACOB always refers to the unbelieving seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God has already taken away the sins of the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles. Forgiveness has never been effectual for the unbelieving seed (Jacob), because it is and always has been through faith that God's promises are received, and JACOB (the unbelieving seed) has not believed.

The exegesis, therefore, of Rom.11: 30-31 and Rom.11: 25-33, is that God will, when the time comes, have mercy on a particular generation of JACOB (foreshadowed by Benjamin, Joseph's younger brother, and by the generation that entered the promised land after their fathers had perished in the wilderness) - and He will do this NOT for THEIR sakes (not for any merit on their part), but (a) for the sake of His promises to and covenant with with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants ("their fathers"); and (b) because of the fact that He had mercy on the Gentiles through JACOB'S unbelief at a time when the Gentiles were themselves still in unbelief (the time when the natural branches, or JACOB, were broken off).

Therefore to say that in Romans 11 paul speaks sometimes of a "natural" Israel and sometimes of a "spiritual" Israel is taking a great amount of unwarranted liberty with both the Old Testament and with what Paul is saying, and introducing a totally unbiblical doctrine which states that Paul is speaking "sometimes of natural israel" and "sometimes of spiritual Israel" in Romans 11; and this is also praticing eisegesis, and not exegesis - not only with regard to Romans 11, but with reagrd to the entire Bible.

ananias

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:21 AM
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Greetings Ananias,

In dealing with Ro 11 Paul sometimes speaks of natural Israel, and sometimes he speaks of supernatural or Spiritual Israel...Israel of God. To understand Ro 11 we must know when Paul is speaking of the natural, and when he is speaking of the supernatural or Spiritual.

The tree that is planted by God came supernaturally, not naturally. The tree that contained the true remnant, or Spiritual Israel is from the nation of Israel, but it is not the natural it is the Spiritual Israel. It is the true Spiritual Israel that comes through the Seed (Christ).

Many Blessings,
RW

I hope you're not going to take it up personally when I use words like "eisegesis" and "unbiblical doctrine", Roger - I know that you're saved, and I'm talking about the doctrine when I use words like that - not you!

Israel came into being through God's calling and eternal election of believing Abraham and his believing seed. Tha nation came into being through a miracle pregnancy and birth (Sarah falling pregnant in her old age); and the nation has always been led, guided, taught, rebuked and chastised by the Spirit of God, who came to dwell among them in the Old Testament tabernacle 430 years after the nation came into being.

Therefore Israel has (always) been a spiritual nation - but not because its citizens were spirits floating around up there and looking down (they were in the world, in physical bodies).

The Spirit of God is still tabernacled among the citizens of Israel - but now He is tabernacled in each and every individual citizen of the nation, who together make up the New Testament temple. We are a spiritual nation in exactly the same sense that Israel has always been a spiritual nation - not because we are spirits floating around up there looking down (because we are in the world, in physical bodies). There never was, and never will be, a "natural" Israel in the sense you describe in your post.

Paul uses very sepicific words to describe the Gentiles who have been grafted into Israel, saying that we are "fellow-citizens" and "joint-heris", having been brought near through the blood of Christ. Notice how Paul makes it clear that the individual cictizens of the nation together make up the New Testament temple:

"Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." (Eph.2: 19-22).

The fact that the post-aspostolic church introduced an unbiblical doctrine of "two Israels" (a "natural Israel" and a "spiritual Israel") shows why Paul went to such great length to explain these things to the Gentiles - and it wasn't really Paul, but the Spirit of Christ in Paul who was constraing Paul to make these things abundantly clear - yet many of the the Gentiles still have not learned these lessons from Paul.

ananias.

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:34 AM
The Lord appeared to a Jew, but the Jew did not recognize Him, and he was blinded. Once having been blinded, the Jew did not seek to go and stay in “the house of God” – instead he chose to go and live in “the house of Judas”. But God sent another Jew to him to share the gospel with him, and the Holy Spirit opened his eyes so that he might see and understand.

His name, of course was Paul.

Then Paul, having a Jewish background and a correct understanding of the root of his faith, went and taught the Gentiles – but he developed problems:

First, many of Paul’s fellow-Jews began to bewitch the Gentile converts, teaching them that IN ADDITION to their faith in the righteousness and blood of Israel’s Messiah, they MUST ALSO observe the Biblical Law and the Festivals – which were a type of, and pointed to, the Messiah and His salvation – and that they MUST ALSO be circumcised in their flesh – even though these Gentiles WERE ALREADY circumcised, having been circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit of God.

And so many of the Gentile converts were thus led astray, and fell from grace.

But there was another problem of false doctrine that Paul had to fight against: The doctrine of the Gentiles, who said, “The natural branches of the tree (nation of Israel) attempted to cut off the righteous BRANCH, and so the FIRST tree (nation of Israel) has been superseded by a NEW tree.”

So he corrected their false doctrine, telling them that even though the unbelieving natural branches which had done this, had been broken off, there was yet a remnant of the branches that did not behave in this way and that DID believe (Rom.11: 1-5), and the Gentiles who believe, are grafted in among them, to share with them in the root and the fatness of the FIRST, ORIGINAL tree (Rom.11: 17); and that these Gentiles, too, are therefore now:-

(1) The seed of Abraham (Gal.3: 29); and

(2) Jews (Rom.2: 28-29).

This tree (nation of Israel) of course, is the tree that was planted by God, and from which sprung Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, the prophets, David, and the Messiah.

And to answer the conceit of the Gentile branches, Paul also reminded them:-

(1) That they do not support the root of the tree, but the root of the tree supports them; and

(2) That if the natural branches which have been broken off repent, then they, too, will be grafted back into their own tree (nation of Israel) again – not into a “NEW” tree (since the first tree had not been superseded by a “NEW” tree), but back into their own tree again – the same tree from which they had been broken off (Rom.11: 23-24); and

(3) Just in case the Gentile branches would still remain conceited because most of the natural branches had been broken off, Paul also revealed a MYSTERY to them (Rom.11: 25), saying that even though a hardening had happened to the tree at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off, this was only a hardening in part (the part which had been broken off), and that this state of affairs will continue only UNTIL the full number of the Gentile branches who would believe and be grafted in, had come in.

Once the full number of the Gentile branches have come in, said Paul, then just as God had mercy on the Gentile branches through the unbelief of most of the natural branches (even though the Gentile branches were themselves still unbelievers at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off), so God will, when the time comes, have mercy on the remnant of the natural branches again (through the mercy He had shown the Gentile branches, even though the Gentile branches were themselves still in unbelief at the time when most of the natural branches were broken off) (Rom.11: 25-33). Therefore when the time comes, God Himself will turn ungodliness away from the natural branches and have mercy upon them, said Paul. (Rom.11: 25-33).

But unfortunately, the idea in the mind of the Gentile branches that a new tree had superseded the first, original tree, was compounded by the fact that the Gentile branches had become confused – a confusion brought about through the fact that all the individual branches of the tree (whether the natural branches or the Gentile branches which are grafted in among them) together make up a NEW temple where the Spirit of God dwells.

Having failed to identify and understand the paradox that although one cannot be a part of the temple unless one is also part of the tree (the nation of Israel) (and yet the temple is not the tree), the Gentile branches insisted all the more that just as there is a new temple (a New Testament temple), so there is a new tree (a New Testament Israel).

So even though Paul went to such great length to correct the false doctrines which were so prevalent in his day, time has gone full-circle, and today the same false doctrines that Paul fought against, are afflicting the disciples of the Messiah of Israel again – many of the Gentile branches have never learned these particular lessons of Paul. :B

According to the following these are the things that Paul said he preached.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 09:23 AM
According to the following these are the things that Paul said he preached.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Firstfruits



saying none other things - meaning that Paul did not add any doctrine to the gospel other than what Moses and the prophets did say should come - such as the doctrine of two Israels (a "natural Israel" and a "spiritual Israel").

Although Paul did not add any doctrine other than what was already said in the Old Testament, he nevertheless taught about a lot more things than just the suffering of Christ - he wrote epistles constituting whole books! for example, he said,

"And I say this, A covenant having been ratified by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it. For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise. Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal.3: 17-19).

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:06 PM
saying none other things - meaning that Paul did not add any doctrine to the gospel other than what Moses and the prophets did say should come - such as the doctrine of two Israels (a "natural Israel" and a "spiritual Israel").

Although Paul did not add any doctrine other than what was already said in the Old Testament, he nevertheless taught about a lot more things than just the suffering of Christ - he wrote epistles constituting whole books! for example, he said,

"And I say this, A covenant having been ratified by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it. For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise. Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal.3: 17-19).

ananias

With regards to what Paul said:

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

When Paul taght about the two Israels it was to show that those that were of the law were not according to the promise.

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Firstfruits

talmidim
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:41 PM
saying none other things - meaning that Paul did not add any doctrine to the gospel other than what Moses and the prophets did say should come - such as the doctrine of two Israels (a "natural Israel" and a "spiritual Israel").

Although Paul did not add any doctrine other than what was already said in the Old Testament, he nevertheless taught about a lot more things than just the suffering of Christ - he wrote epistles constituting whole books! for example, he said,

"And I say this, A covenant having been ratified by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it. For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise. Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal.3: 17-19).

ananiasShalom ananias,

I am encouraged by the plain truth of your posts in this thread. It is extremely hard for me to read the posts of some that do not address the discrepancies and indeed, the contradiction between what Messiah taught and how the writings of Paul are 'interpreted'. And though it is impossible for there to be these disharmonious contradictions between what Yahshua taught and what they take Paul to mean, they nonetheless turn a blind eye rather than investigate Paul's epistles honestly.

We all come to the faith knowing nothing. But over time we listen to the teachings of others. And we adopt them as our own. And once that has occurred, it is a difficult thing to admit to ourselves that we could be wrong or that those we admire, could have inherited error and lies. And the simple fact is that most of our brothers and sisters will not turn a critical eye on their own doctrine. For the same reason that they will not turn a critical eye on their lives in general. It is a painful process to admit error and seek correction, no matter the source. So many are simply afraid to ask, 'Am I wrong?'

In another thread I tried to show through the teachings of Messiah, the difference between the 'letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law'. I have also tried to address the many connotations of the phrase 'the law' as it was understood in the first century. All this in an effort to show how misconceptions could creep into the interpretations of Paul's often complicated teachings. But alas, my efforts fell on blind eyes and deaf ears. So I have decided that prayer is a more profitable course. Because most will not actually reason with you. Instead, they will only parrot what they have been taught.

So you have my admiration and my prayers. May your efforts be blessed by His Spirit to show fruit.

In His Love,
Phillip

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:49 PM
Shalom ananias,

I am encouraged by the plain truth of your posts in this thread. It is extremely hard for me to read the posts of some that do not address the discrepancies and indeed, the contradiction between what Messiah taught and how the writings of Paul are 'interpreted'. And though it is impossible for there to be these disharmonious contradictions between what Yahshua taught and what they take Paul to mean, they nonetheless turn a blind eye rather than investigate Paul's epistles honestly.

We all come to the faith knowing nothing. But over time we listen to the teachings of others. And we adopt them as our own. And once that has occurred, it is a difficult thing to admit to ourselves that we could be wrong or that those we admire, could have inherited error and lies. And the simple fact is that most of our brothers and sisters will not turn a critical eye on their own doctrine. For the same reason that they will not turn a critical eye on their lives in general. It is a painful process to admit error and seek correction, no matter the source. So many are simply afraid to ask, 'Am I wrong?'

In another thread I tried to show through the teachings of Messiah, the difference between the 'letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law'. I have also tried to address the many connotations of the phrase 'the law' as it was understood in the first century. All this in an effort to show how misconceptions could creep into the interpretations of Paul's often complicated teachings. But alas, my efforts fell on blind eyes and deaf ears. So I have decided that prayer is a more profitable course. Because most will not actually reason with you. Instead, they will only parrot what they have been taught.

So you have my admiration and my prayers. May your efforts be blessed by His Spirit to show fruit.

In His Love,
Phillip


With regards to Pauls honesty, what did Paul mean in the following?

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Firstfruits

talmidim
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:50 PM
With regards to what Paul said:

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

When Paul taght about the two Israels it was to show that those that were of the law were not according to the promise.

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

FirstfruitsI can't help but notice that you had to jump all over the place to make your point. Do you understand that 'those in the flesh' were the administrators of the Word and the state of Israel? And that Messiah took that administration out of their hands and put it in yours as an individual? Neither Jew nor Gentile, just you and Him.

Don't you know that he is talking about walking after the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law? It is really a simple concept. I wish you well FF, but you have shown a singular disregard toward this point. That there can be no contradictions to what the Master taught. And your interpretation of these verses does contradict Messiah.

And by the way, I have no problem with Paul or his honesty. Only the erroneous interpretation of his words.

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 01:28 PM
I can't help but notice that you had to jump all over the place to make your point. Do you understand that 'those in the flesh' were the administrators of the Word and the state of Israel? And that Messiah took that administration out of their hands and put it in yours as an individual? Neither Jew nor Gentile, just you and Him.

Don't you know that he is talking about walking after the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law? It is really a simple concept. I wish you well FF, but you have shown a singular disregard toward this point. That there can be no contradictions to what the Master taught. And your interpretation of these verses does contradict Messiah.

And by the way, I have no problem with Paul or his honesty. Only the erroneous interpretation of his words.


What therefore is the difference between doing the letter of the law and doing it by the spirit of the law, with regards to the first covenant and the second covenant?

Thanks

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:10 PM
With regards to Pauls honesty, what did Paul mean in the following?

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Firstfruits

I've said this earlier in this thread (I think you possibly never read what I wrote).

Paul is speaking in the verses below about those descendants of Abraham who showed thorugh their unbelief that they were never part of Israel:

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9: 7 - Just because they are children of Abraham, this doesn't mean that they are necessarily part of God's Israel, the Israel of God WHICH CAME INTO BEING WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN. Through their unbelief most of the children of Abraham showed that they were not part of Israel - BUT A REMNANT REMAINED. It was always the case (and still is) - ONLY a remnant of Israel is truly the Israel of God - even today.

But I've realized that Talmidim is right. I would add that the remnant of God's Israel (which came into being when Isaac was born) are today to be found in nearly every country on nearly every continent; and the remnant love Yeshua HaMaschiach above everything else and above everyone else

- therefore if and whenever there is an occasion where one of the remnant sees that that he was wrong regarding interpretation of Yeshua's teaching, he immediately and freely admits it - for the remnant magnify the truth and the truth only, and disregard the doctrines of men which twist the truth. Not so the majority - they care more about what others will say if they admit that they were wrong, and less about the truth.

That's one of the greatest measures of who the remnant are - the remnant magnify the truth and the truth only, and disregard the doctrines of men which twist the truth.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:17 PM
I've said this earlier in this thread (I think you possibly never read what I wrote).

Paul is speaking in the verses below about those descendants of Abraham who showed thorugh their unbelief that they were never part of Israel:

Rom 9:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9: 7 - Just because they are children of Abraham, this doesn't mean that they are necessarily part of God's Israel, the Israel of God WHICH CAME INTO BEING WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN. Through their unbelief most of the children of Abraham showed that they were not part of Israel - BUT A REMNANT REMAINED. It was always the case (and still is) - ONLY a remnant of Israel is truly the Israel of God - even today.

But I've realized that Talmidim is right. I would add that the remnant of God's Israel (which came into being when Isaac was born) are today to be found in nearly every country on nearly every continent; and the remnant love Yeshua HaMaschiach above everything else and above everyone else

- therefore if and whenever there is an occasion where one of the remnant sees that that he was wrong regarding interpretation of Yeshua's teaching, he immediately and freely admits it - for the remnant magnify the truth and the truth only, and disregard the doctrines of men which twist the truth. Not so the majority - they care more about what others will say if they admit that they were wrong, and less about the truth.

That's one of the greatest measures of who the remnant are - the remnant magnify the truth and the truth only, and disregard the doctrines of men which twist the truth.

ananias

Were they not following the law?

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Firstfruits

RogerW
Sep 2nd 2008, 03:20 PM
Greetings Ananias,

Let me first say that I am not offended in the least when other brothers/sisters disagree with me. None of us have perfect knowledge of all Scripture. What I truly enjoy is discussing these doctrines in exactly the attitude you have displayed. If we are open, and not content to simply say lets just agree to disagree, then I believe it really is possible to come to unity of doctrine. Trouble comes when we become to comfortable in our doctrine, and our pride refuses to allow us to accept that we are sometimes (in my case often) wrong, or perhaps a better way to express it, is that we don't yet have a full understanding of some things. This is a very misunderstood chapter of Romans, and understanding this one chapter determines how we interpret other difficult doctrines.

I believe simply by examing the very first verse of Ro 11 we can understand that though there is a nation called Israel, there is also within this nation a Spiritual Israel, the true people of God.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? [Spiritual Israel] God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, [from the nation; natural Israel] of the seed [Christ; Spiritual Israel] of Abraham, [father of the natural Israel AND Spiritual Israel through his seed(s) and the Seed/Christ] of the tribe of Benjamin. [natural Israel]

Who are the people that God foreknows? Are the foreknown of God the natural Israel or Spiritual Israel?

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. [Spiritual Israel] Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, [the natural Israel] saying,

Ro 11:3 Lord, they [natural Israel] have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I [Elijah is from the natural Israel, and of Spiritual Israel] am left alone, and they [natural Israel] seek my life.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, [Spiritual Israel] who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [Spiritual Israel which includes Paul and every elect Jew from natural Israel]

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, [through Christ; Spiritual Seed] then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel [natural Israel] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [Spiritual Israel] hath obtained it, and the rest [natural Israel] were blinded

Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them [natural Israel] the spirit of slumber, eyes that they [natural Israel] should not see, and ears that they [natural Israel] should not hear;) unto this day.

Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their [natural Israel] table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Ro 11:10 Let their [natural Israel] eyes be darkened, that they [natural Israel] may not see, and bow down their [natural Israel] back alway.

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they [natural Israel] stumbled that they [natural Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their [natural Israel] fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [natural Israel] to jealousy.

Ro 11:12 Now if the fall of them [natural Israel] be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them [natural Israel] the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their [natural Israel] fulness?

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, [natural Israel] and might save some of them. [natural Isreal]

Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them[natural Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [natural Israel] be, but life from the dead?

Paul has given us a picture of how the natural seed of Abraham has fallen. Now Paul begins to show us a picture of Spiritual Israel, that came from the nation, but is of the Spiritual Seed; Christ.

Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit [Christ 1Co 15:23] be holy, the lump [from the nation but firstfruits of Spiritual Israel Rev 14:4] is also holy: and if the root [Christ] be holy, so are the branches. [from the nation but of Spiritual Israel]

Can the elect remnant of the Seed of Christ, the True Israel of God ever be broken off?

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, [natural branches] and thou, [Gentiles] being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, [Spiritual Israel of God Gal 6:16 from the nation, but of the Seed; Christ] and with them [Israel of God; Spiritual Israel] partakest of the root [Christ] and fatness of the olive tree; [True Israel; Spiritual Israel]

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. [natural Israel] But if thou boast, thou [Gentiles] bearest not the root, [Christ] but the root thee. [Christ bears us]

Ro 11:19 Thou [Gentiles] wilt say then, The branches [natural Israel] were broken off, that I [Gentiles] might be graffed in. [among the Spiritual Israel, from the nation, of the Seed Christ]


Hi, Roger. Thanks for your reply.

(1) God never created two Israel's (a "natural" Israel + a "spiritual" Israel) when he called Abraham out of the country he was living in, and promised him (a) that Sarah would become pregnant and bear him a son, and that through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the earth will be blessed; and (b) that God would be God to (believing) Abraham and his (believing) descendants forever.

Abraham's Seed that blesses all the nations of the earth is Christ.

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed [Christ] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



There were always (a) those of Abraham's descendants who did not believe (such as those who fell in the wilderness during the exodus-period); and (b) Gentiles who were being grafted into Israel (such as Ruth).

Yes, these are those of the natural, or Abraham's seeds through the flesh. They were not among the elect remnant. Elect Gentiles were grafted into the Spiritual Israel. They lived among natural Israel, but they were of the True Seed; Christ.



The unbelieving descendants of Israel (of Abraham) showed through their unbelief that they were not truly Israel - it was not because there were "two Israels" (a "natural" Israel and a "spiritual" Israel). Paul's states this in Romans 9: 6-9.

The unbelieving descendents of Israel were truly Israel of the flesh, but they were never of Spiritual Israel through Christ.



To talk about a "natural" Israel and a "spiritual" Israel (two different types of Israel) is practicing eisegesis with the whole Bible, in my opinion.

I really don't know of any other way to put it. For there certainly are two types of Israel. One is born of the flesh through Abraham's natural seed(s). The other is born of the Spirit through Abraham's Spiritual Seed; Christ. Both are called Israel, one by natural birth, the other by supernatural re-birth. They can both claim national identity because both come from the nation, but only one is of the True Israel of God.



The unbelieving branches were broken off because they showed by their unbelief that they were never truly part of Israel - of whom the father is believing Abraham.

They are indeed part of Israel...of the flesh. Through their unbelief they show they were never part of the Israel of God. Which is also from the nation, but OF Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

ananias
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:28 PM
Greetings Ananias,

Let me first say that I am not offended in the least when other brothers/sisters disagree with me. None of us have perfect knowledge of all Scripture. What I truly enjoy is discussing these doctrines in exactly the attitude you have displayed. If we are open, and not content to simply say lets just agree to disagree, then I believe it really is possible to come to unity of doctrine. Trouble comes when we become to comfortable in our doctrine, and our pride refuses to allow us to accept that we are sometimes (in my case often) wrong, or perhaps a better way to express it, is that we don't yet have a full understanding of some things. This is a very misunderstood chapter of Romans, and understanding this one chapter determines how we interpret other difficult doctrines.

I believe simply by examing the very first verse of Ro 11 we can understand that though there is a nation called Israel, there is also within this nation a Spiritual Israel, the true people of God.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? [Spiritual Israel] God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, [from the nation; natural Israel] of the seed [Christ; Spiritual Israel] of Abraham, [father of the natural Israel AND Spiritual Israel through his seed(s) and the Seed/Christ] of the tribe of Benjamin. [natural Israel]

Who are the people that God foreknows? Are the foreknown of God the natural Israel or Spiritual Israel?

Many Blessings,
RW

Thanks for your replies, Roger. I've considered carefully what you have written in your previous post,trying to see it as you see it, but I really do think you're misunderstanding what Paul and the Lord Jesus before Him taught. You're confusing and mixing different concepts. The people whom God foreknew are those who would hear, believe and accept the gospel of salvation. This has nothing to do with a "natural" Israel and a "spiritual" Israel.

But of course, you say it does. So I realize that it's not going to make much sense if we debate about it any further, as we will merely be going around in circles once again.

But thanks anyway for taking the time and trouble to read and reply, First Fruits, RogerW and Talmidim. I'm bowing out of this thread now, because I don't think we're going to find common theological ground. Thank God, we are all nevertheless saved and sealed by one and the same Spirit!

ananias