PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Personal Convictions



manichunter
Sep 2nd 2008, 05:49 PM
I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


Here are a few examples of the Torah break down:
The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............ :monkeyd:

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 06:42 PM
I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

"... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

God bless Manichunter,

Ananias.

manichunter
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:26 PM
I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

"... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

God bless Manichunter,

Ananias.

Judiaism is not in the Tanakh or the second covenant epistles. Judiaism was created as it exist today post 70 A.D. :D It is a misconception that the Jews of Jesus time observed one religious view, but many. Jesus confronted different doctrinal beliefs of the Jews. He confronted the Sadducees, Herodians, and Pharisees regarding there religious doctrine. It is not shown if He ever confronted the Zealots or Essense who also had their different beliefs. The Zealots are elluded to in the book of Acts and one of the Disciples was a former Zealot. A Zealot just before Yeshua claimed to be the Messiah, but He was killed and his movement died out.

I know I got to watch studying,,,,,,,, I have to fight pride everytime after studying the Scripture, I get all puffed up....... :rofl: LOL

Emanate
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:44 PM
I'm going to quote the aspotles' doctrine, and then I'm going to copy-cat the way the church interprets the apostles' doctrine (so don't blame me if I contradict myself in the process):

"... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

But don't study it TOO much - if you do you'll be guilty of "going back to Judaism"!

God bless Manichunter,

Ananias.

Tongue in cheek. Brilliant

Lo-Lo
Sep 2nd 2008, 07:59 PM
Frankly, I like reading your posts because your yes' are yes and no's are no's............which in that type of authoritive "voice" through your posting irrates some people. I find it refreshing and honest. To challenge each other to mature in Christ means we reflect on a persons opinions/convictons and use scripture to see if the statement is true. So how is studying scripture bad? How is challenging one another to eat "meat" so disheartening :hmm:? Your plumbline is scripture - not someone on this messageboard! :hug:

In God's Amazing Grace! :D

ananias
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:17 PM
Getting back to topic... (LoL) ;)

Actually, Manichunter, your OP in this thread taught me something I never knew about the new moon festivals. Your understanding of the spiritual application (halacha) to us as disciples of Jesus is something I never heard before.

I understood the halacha of the mo'adim as well as of the year of Jubilee - but this OP of yours is instruction from the scriptures (Torah) that I never realized was there. So thank you!

The words scripture and Torah (which means instruction) are synonomous words - that's why Paul, at least, understood exactly what he meant when he said to Timothy,

"... and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work." (2Tim.3: 15-17).

But the caveat we have to bear in mind (which I'm sure you're aware of) is that the moment we think we MUST observe ANY festival, we have fallen from grace - whether it be Passover or Easter or Pentecost or "St Patrcik's day" or Christmas or "Palm Sunday" or Rosh Hashanah or Sukkot or whatever (see how I've deliberately mixed up the man-appointed, man-dreamed up "Christian" festivals with those which God revealed to Moses on Mt Sinai, to keep myself out of trouble! LoLs.

ananias

Sold Out
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:27 PM
I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.



Ok, I'm going to plead ignorance here....when you say 'Torah', are you speaking of the Old Testament scriptures only or another compilation of scriptures intended primarily for the Jews?

manichunter
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:35 PM
Frankly, I like reading your posts because your yes' are yes and no's are no's............which in that type of authoritive "voice" through your posting irrates some people. I find it refreshing and honest. To challenge each other to mature in Christ means we reflect on a persons opinions/convictons and use scripture to see if the statement is true. So how is studying scripture bad? How is challenging one another to eat "meat" so disheartening :hmm:? Your plumbline is scripture - not someone on this messageboard! :hug:

In God's Amazing Grace! :D

You used some words that are not in my vocabulary. What is a plumbline and how does it fit towards me.

I think it means validation. I know I will not get that. If I did get validation, then I would not know how to take it. All I could probaly do is say amen and praise God.......

What do you mean as authoritative manner? I was trained to speak as such as a manner of my professional life as a cop in Harris County, Drill Sergeant at an adult boot camp, and interrogator in the military. My pastor is also constantly telling me to prepare my sermons as such as well. He constantly say make declarative statements in your outlines. My past trainers constantly said be frank and forward. I did not know I was coming off like this.

manichunter
Sep 2nd 2008, 08:54 PM
Ok, I'm going to plead ignorance here....when you say 'Torah', are you speaking of the Old Testament scriptures only or another compilation of scriptures intended primarily for the Jews?


Torah in the manner of the instructions given to Israel to establish them as Yahweh's special people and priest to the nations. They failed in their flesh to be the priest to the world and spread the Gospel of Yahweh? Hence, God chose to do it Himself through His Son by the Holy Spirit in the use of vessels called Spiritual Israel (the royal priesthood today, US)

Deut 4: 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4:6&sr=1&t=nas) "So keep and do them, for (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R143)that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, `Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4:7&sr=1&t=nas) "For what (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R144)great nation is there that has a god so (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R145)near to it as is the LORD our God whenever (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R146)we call on Him? 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4:8&sr=1&t=nas) "Or what great nation is there that has statutes (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R147)and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

dispen4ever
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:33 AM
What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.


Amen. Amen. I don't believe that we need to understand the Torah to understand that, however. The OT scriptures are handled quite well in the NT. I'd rather spend my time in the latter!!

God bless you as you continue your study! Please continue to provide scriptural insights.

Lo-Lo
Sep 3rd 2008, 01:59 AM
Well, you really answered your question in your analysis of my question :rofl:! Yes, we all seek validation of our convictions but they should center over what the scriptures say and not by our peers-I know we are human and this cannot be helped. People who talk frankly (and I am one of them) unnerve quite a few people. I do not like to be misunderstood, so I try to be clear and direct with my explanations which seems to get me into a lot of trouble :rolleyes:. You are quite frank and clear with your posts-which is a good thing! I may not agreed with what you say in the post but you sure make me look up subjects I might never have thought about! What I love about convictions is the challenge to figure out by studying scripture what is the truth and how that applies to me......hence, my spiritual growth.

In God's Amazing Grace!

manichunter
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:38 AM
Well, you really answered your question in your analysis of my question :rofl:! Yes, we all seek validation of our convictions but they should center over what the scriptures say and not by our peers-I know we are human and this cannot be helped. People who talk frankly (and I am one of them) unnerve quite a few people. I do not like to be misunderstood, so I try to be clear and direct with my explanations which seems to get me into a lot of trouble :rolleyes:. You are quite frank and clear with your posts-which is a good thing! I may not agreed with what you say in the post but you sure make me look up subjects I might never have thought about! What I love about convictions is the challenge to figure out by studying scripture what is the truth and how that applies to me......hence, my spiritual growth.

In God's Amazing Grace!

I guess it is another thing to mortify as to not steal glory from God....... right, thanks brother for the assessment. I must honor truth, it is a temptation. Most people want to be right and seen as sharp, however, the saint cannot be puffed up as such. Feel free to shoot me down if you see my head swell real big.............. LOL :eek:

walked
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:11 PM
I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


Here are a few examples of theTorah break down:
The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............ :monkeyd:

Hi manichunter,

I think you are right on target and, I, just by what I've read in your post here know there is a deep personal relationship developed and growing because of your understanding of how God is revealed to one who understands the Torah.

Once you know/understand The Torah.
The Torah can be a blessing if you apply it, or it can be a curse if you ignore it.
But, not everyone knows/understands it, or are (not ready for/can't digest it yet)

The doctrine of Salvation/restoration of mans position back into a relationship with his creator is the foundation of Christianity, Sadly most christians are content just having this.
If when God creates a desire/hunger/thirst in a christian for more than the milk of salvation, then The Holy spirit and Gods word will point past the milk of the gospel and point at the Torah for that individual to find more and deeper revelations of God.... but until then any man pointing to the Torah just adds to the confusion the evil one has already established on this subject.

Those who are not ready for meat yet but still digesting milk, or some who think themselves wise and just don't want to be held accountable to the wisdom found there so just keep sipping milk and become defensive when this is pointed out by a man.
So I personally think it is best to let God call them to the meat and away from the milk before trying to help them digest the meat when they are not able or willing yet.

In other words, Don't try to guide people to the Torah....
Try to guide people through the Torah once Gods brings them to it....
Otherwise you will be just adding to the confusion and feeding the fire that the evil one has already established on this subject.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 12:36 PM
I lot of people have claimed that I confuse them regarding what I observe. So I will try to explain it in a short manner. I also welcome others whether proponent or opponent to share what they know; for I definitely want to know more myself.

I have seen the messages concerning me and my manner of posting. My motives have never been hidden or covert. I have been as frank , tactful, and loving as I can be. I understand that most purposely avoid me as seen by the private messages. However, what can I do about that, and is that even my concern, no (it does hurt to some degree, but I have not allowed the devil to trick me into being offended).

What I know has been learned over a course of seventeen years. Half was learned from instruction via pastors, seminary school, and friends. The other half was learned from personal study and research. All of these means are still continuing as I search for an even greater relationship with Yahweh.

I do not observed Torah in the manner of letter and by means of my own human strenght and efforts (carnality). It does not produce any legal righteousness for me or declare me not guilty before God. It does not prove me better, wiser, or stronger than any other believer who does not agree with my observances. It does however prove my efforts to love and be holy towards God in a personal relationship, fellowship and communion. Moreover, this is a personal matter that is between God and the observer, which does not need the approval of any other believer.

I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.

I think that all believers should have a personal understanding of Torah whether one observes it or not is paramount necessity. I see it as a reasonable attempt to understand Yeshua's character and intentions towards His people.

I personally see the the Torah in a new light because I challenge myself to know what Torah was. I now see Torah as it always was, spiritual and holy. It was entrusted to mankind in the flesh, but it did not fit, for mankind was totally corrupted by carnality and iniquity.
The Torah should be viewed in a spiritual sense both in the practical and application manner. They are not laws in the same manner as most think of laws as deterrents against specific actions. The Torah are Yahweh's instructions for holy and spiritual living. This was not possible in the first, until the coming of the Holy Spirit.


Here are a few examples of the Torah break down:
The commandments being the Ten commandments are vows and mark of our covenant between Yahweh and the believer. Any breech of these are considered covenant violations. Ex. The thou shall not do ten things. These are marked upon our heart as a means of showing how we relate to Yahweh. Not adhering to the vows is an act of adultery.

The judgments are what define our conduct, fellowship, and attitude towards our brother. Ex. Not charging our Christian brother interest on a loan. He is family, right. Spirit should be thicker than blood. How much this is not seen in even how most relate to each other on a lot of forums. We say we are Christians, but we do not say we are brothers. Why? We are ignored of the judgments that would expose the truth of sin concerning our ill heart's towards the truth our brotherhood and manner of relating.

The statutes are what define the manner of worship and fellowship with God in the performance of our spiritual duties. Ex. Being a living sacrifice as a burnt offering towards God which typifies a specific manner of conduct necessary to follow through and complete a specific spiritual and holy duty. The bullock defining our manner of work ethic and definition of duty, the lamb defining our attitude and mindset towards others, and the dove defining our mannerisms towards God and His people.

The testimonies are the examples of what Yahweh did and will continue to do as a manner of pattern and relationships. Ex. How God took the children of Israel out of Egypt.Will and does God still deliver us from our personal Egypts today. Has he done it before? What does the testimonies of His word say about our God's motives, past actions, and intentions.

This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............ :monkeyd:
Hi Manichunter,

As I have said before I enjoy our dialgues, however with regards to what you do although you do it without regards to righteousness, according to the following how does it apply to you?

Gal 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

How do you please God with that which is not of faith?

Thanks Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 06:57 PM
The bible states that Jesus is the spirit; 2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So if we are following Jesus what then are we describing as the spirit of the law that we are led to do the thing of the law of Moses? Jesus is that spirit and it is Jesus we say we follow?

Firstfruits

livingwaters
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:48 PM
I don't know, but my opinion is that God gave us the "whole" Bible, not just the NT. When the gospels were written, they don't say, forget what God told Moses and the people on how to live, did they????? The OT was a preparation for us as to how God wants us to live. I know that Jesus' blood is the atonement for my sins. I know that we don't kill bulls for sacrifice, which was the law in the OT, for covering up sin for a year. I know that priests don't have to fear for their lives if God doesn't forgive sins, as they did in the OT, I know that we don't get stoned anymore, at least not in USA...I know that when Jesus died on the cross for me, that the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn, and now I have direct access to the Father, through the blood of Jesus.

I really don't think that we can dismiss the 10 commandments, as some seem to say. These 10 were summed up in two that Jesus gave: Love thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; Love your neighbor as yourself. He said if you do these two, you will have done all 10.

I acknowledge the 10 commandments to be the foundation-builders for my faith-based life. I don't live under condemnation. But, I do obey God, to the best of my ability. When I sin, I confess and ask for forgiveness and recieve it!!!! Praise God.


Just my thoughts.....:)

Lo-Lo
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:29 PM
Ok, correct me if I am wrong but didnt Jesus come to fullfill the law not replace it? With that being said, the Old Testament/or Torah is crucial in understanding what Christ really did for us. Even with all the rules in the Torah, NO ONE was worthy of salvation! If Jesus had not died on the cross for me, then the temple priests would be busy with sin offerings causing the streets to be red with just my sin(on a daily basis)! The blood that was shed before Christ needs to be examined by all christians. We should never forget the grace of Christ's blood in setting us free from slavery to our sins. The scriptures (New and Old Testaments) need to be studied as a whole so we can see how God the Father sees us. Then, just maybe, our faith will indeed be as small as a mustard seed thus moving mountains the whole world can see.

PS>>>> Manichunter - I am a sister in Christ.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 11:51 PM
Mani,

I always read your posts with great expectation. I know you've drawn close to the LORD and it inspires me to do the same. I rejoice that your relationship with the Holy One has brought these awesome revelations you hold.

You cause me to desire to draw nearer to God. I don't know the effect on others, but I would say God is having His way through you. You may not think of it that way, or be aware of it, but you lift up Yeshua for Who He Is with your posts. at least to me.

I can't express my prayers in words that God bless you very richly and keeps you treasures you as His child. I praise God for what He has done in you. I truely hope I will be present when that day comes when Yeshua says to you "Well done, my good and faithful servant". I truely will rejoice. Thank you.

manichunter
Sep 4th 2008, 12:31 AM
Hi manichunter,

I think you are right on target and, I, just by what I've read in your post here know there is a deep personal relationship developed and growing because of your understanding of how God is revealed to one who understands the Torah.

Once you know/understand The Torah.
The Torah can be a blessing if you apply it, or it can be a curse if you ignore it.
But, not everyone knows/understands it, or are (not ready for/can't digest it yet)

The doctrine of Salvation/restoration of mans position back into a relationship with his creator is the foundation of Christianity, Sadly most christians are content just having this.
If when God creates a desire/hunger/thirst in a christian for more than the milk of salvation, then The Holy spirit and Gods word will point past the milk of the gospel and point at the Torah for that individual to find more and deeper revelations of God.... but until then any man pointing to the Torah just adds to the confusion the evil one has already established on this subject.

Those who are not ready for meat yet but still digesting milk, or some who think themselves wise and just don't want to be held accountable to the wisdom found there so just keep sipping milk and become defensive when this is pointed out by a man.
So I personally think it is best to let God call them to the meat and away from the milk before trying to help them digest the meat when they are not able or willing yet.

In other words, Don't try to guide people to the Torah....
Try to guide people through the Torah once Gods brings them to it....
Otherwise you will be just adding to the confusion and feeding the fire that the evil one has already established on this subject.



I here you dear brother. Hence why I do not debate or get involved with vain discourses. I am accountable to share, but it is not my responsibility to prove anything. That is the Holy Spirit job to convict of sin, speak of righteousness, and teach truth. He just use vessels like ourselves to convey messages to people's sight and hearing. It is up to them after the message has been delivered.

I by all means understand what you mean to a limited degree. It is a goal I endure to get right. I want to learn even more on how to follow the Spirit and be a minister for people........... Patience does have a perfect work....... God BLEEEEEEESE you for the wisdom and reminder.

1of7000
Sep 4th 2008, 07:43 AM
i thought the personal convictions had something to do with being a cop. sorry, i'll be moving along, shows over.........

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 10:06 AM
I don't know, but my opinion is that God gave us the "whole" Bible, not just the NT. When the gospels were written, they don't say, forget what God told Moses and the people on how to live, did they????? The OT was a preparation for us as to how God wants us to live. I know that Jesus' blood is the atonement for my sins. I know that we don't kill bulls for sacrifice, which was the law in the OT, for covering up sin for a year. I know that priests don't have to fear for their lives if God doesn't forgive sins, as they did in the OT, I know that we don't get stoned anymore, at least not in USA...I know that when Jesus died on the cross for me, that the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn, and now I have direct access to the Father, through the blood of Jesus.

I really don't think that we can dismiss the 10 commandments, as some seem to say. These 10 were summed up in two that Jesus gave: Love thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; Love your neighbor as yourself. He said if you do these two, you will have done all 10.

I acknowledge the 10 commandments to be the foundation-builders for my faith-based life. I don't live under condemnation. But, I do obey God, to the best of my ability. When I sin, I confess and ask for forgiveness and recieve it!!!! Praise God.


Just my thoughts.....:)

It does not say we are to forget what God told Moses, because that is what Paul preached/taught but as Paul said only those things concerning Jesus.

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

What are we concerned with?

Firstfruits

Jerome1
Sep 4th 2008, 10:45 AM
I believe the confusion surrounding the Torah is a the greatest work of confusion and deception by Satan. I say this because of the manifestation of confustion and chaos in the Body of Christ. What is the mark of confusion, but the existence of various denominations and doctrinal schools of thought. What is the mark of chaos, but the existence of sin sitting comfortably in a lot of churches without the extreme pressure to be holy as He is holy.


I'd agree that Satan is the author of confusion. I also think it is important to learn how God related to the Jews in the Old Covenant and how Christ fulfilled the laws of the Old Covenant. That pretty much goes without saying.

Just another observation about your above comment about the confusion in the Body of Christ.

1Peter5:8 Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour. Resist him steadfast in your faith, for you know that your brothers and sisters in all the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.

This is an interesting analogy, because lions hunt by observing and singling out the prey that they regard as the weakest, they then separate it from the rest of pack. I think the devil works in the same way, by constantly observing, and trying to separate christians.

That is why it is important to learn about the Jewish roots in christianity.

Hosea4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

watchinginawe
Sep 4th 2008, 12:48 PM
This is my short answer regarding my convictions, what are your convictions............ :monkeyd:Hello manichunter. I plead guilty to avoiding your threads from time to time. :) But just the same, when I want to discuss things with you, I do it in the forum.

Here is what concerns me with your posts. They seem to me to either assume or have left off completely grace through faith in Jesus Christ. My concern is apparent even in this thread regarding your convictions where once again the cross of Christ doesn't make the list.

When it is brought up to you, to me you seem to marginalize Jesus and the cross by stating they are embodied by the torah thus intimate to you. Torah = Jesus, Word made flesh. That is the postulation that you have advanced in this forum.

Because you find Jesus completely in the torah, then the part of God being made flesh and suffering the cross doesn't seem necessary but instead is relegated to more of a symbolic gesture of God.

I say, return to your first love.

My convictions? They start at my foundation: Jesus Christ. I Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I can build on that confidently as long as my convictions are anchored to my foundation.

I Corinthians 2: And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God Bless!

walked
Sep 4th 2008, 08:11 PM
Hello manichunter. I plead guilty to avoiding your threads from time to time. :) But just the same, when I want to discuss things with you, I do it in the forum.

Here is what concerns me with your posts. They seem to me to either assume or have left off completely grace through faith in Jesus Christ. My concern is apparent even in this thread regarding your convictions where once again the cross of Christ doesn't make the list.

When it is brought up to you, to me you seem to marginalize Jesus and the cross by stating they are embodied by the torah thus intimate to you. Torah = Jesus, Word made flesh. That is the postulation that you have advanced in this forum.

Because you find Jesus completely in the torah, then the part of God being made flesh and suffering the cross doesn't seem necessary but instead is relegated to more of a symbolic gesture of God.

I say, return to your first love.

My convictions? They start at my foundation: Jesus Christ. I Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I can build on that confidently as long as my convictions are anchored to my foundation.

I Corinthians 2: And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God Bless!

With all due respect to you watchinginawe, and in defense of manichunter, What may look to you as Christ being marginalized, may just be because Christ is the foundation and a foundation by defaults is to be built upon, Christ Himself used the example of foundation to explain Himself to the world.
Using that example of foundation:
Every foundation I know of is covered by what is built upon it. Just because a foundation is covered by what is built upon it does not mean that the foundation is ignored, marginalized or of no account.

Myself as an example, the old testament to me at this point in my renewal and growth: the old testament is the lumber, nails, mortar and tiles being used to teach me/build upon the foundation of Christ....
This most certainly does not mean that I marginalize my Lord Jesus because my current focus may be off of Christ and on meat/supplies found in the old testament to build upon Him as the foundation.

The Apostle Paul taught the churches that he established, that to mature in/upon Christ you must graduate from the milk of the gospel/foundation and build upon it....
So, when a christian is mature in Christ and feeding on things to build upon the foundation of Christ, then the gospel/foundation is milk to him, and the law and the prophets are his school master, this to me does not diminish Christ one bit but glorifies the Father who sent Him an testifies to the work and purpose of Christ.

Emanate
Sep 4th 2008, 08:38 PM
Myself as an example, the old testament to me at this point in my renewal and growth: the old testament is the lumber, nails, mortar and tiles being used to teach me/build upon the foundation of Christ

Very well stated. As Messiah said "If you do not believe Moses, how can you believe me?"

watchinginawe
Sep 4th 2008, 09:10 PM
With all due respect to you watchinginawe, and in defense of manichunter, What may look to you as Christ being marginalized, may just be because Christ is the foundation and a foundation by defaults is to be built upon, Christ Himself used the example of foundation to explain Himself to the world.
Using that example of foundation:
Every foundation I know of is covered by what is built upon it. Just because a foundation is covered by what is built upon it does not mean that the foundation is ignored, marginalized or of no account.

Myself as an example, the old testament to me at this point in my renewal and growth: the old testament is the lumber, nails, mortar and tiles being used to teach me/build upon the foundation of Christ....
This most certainly does not mean that I marginalize my Lord Jesus because my current focus may be off of Christ and on meat/supplies found in the old testament to build upon Him as the foundation.

The Apostle Paul taught the churches that he established, that to mature in/upon Christ you must graduate from the milk of the gospel and build upon it....
So, when a christian is mature in Christ and feeding on things to build upon the foundation of Christ, then the gospel/foundation is milk to him, and the law and the prophets are his school master, this to me does not diminish Christ one bit but glorifies the Father who sent Him an testifies to the work and purpose of Christ.
Thanks for the reply walked. I don't think I have a problem if Jesus Christ is the foundation. I also think that is what I posted.

But the law and the prophets being the schoolmaster, we have the following thoughts of Paul regarding that:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

You suggest that Christ brings us to the schoolmaster, the law and the prophets. Paul suggests that the schoolmaster, the law, brings us to Christ.

Regardless, I agree with you about the foundation. That is my point really.

God Bless!

walked
Sep 4th 2008, 09:23 PM
Thanks for the reply walked. I don't think I have a problem if Jesus Christ is the foundation. I also think that is what I posted.

But the law and the prophets being the schoolmaster, we have the following thoughts of Paul regarding that:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

You suggest that Christ brings us to the schoolmaster, the law and the prophets. Paul suggests that the schoolmaster, the law, brings us to Christ.

Regardless, I agree with you about the foundation. That is my point really.

God Bless!


Aye, the law was the schoolmaster to those who were blessed to be born a Jew, for they were raised and taught by the letter of the law.
Paul for example was more learned in the law and prophets than even the best of teachers of the law n prophets but, to the churches Paul established...
( even the church Paul was speaking to in your quote of scripture) :) Galatians 3:24,25 n 26
They were not raised by the teachings of the law and the prophets, the law n the prophets were never their teacher before the gospel was brought to them by Paul, so you must consider that in your understanding of what Paul was trying to express.

Me as an example, I was taught the ten commandments in my youth but not taught the law n the prophets, so I did not have the benefits of such a schoolmaster before the gospel came to me, so in my case and most gentile believers the reverse is true!... I/we need the schoolmaster to reveal deeper revelations of our creator, to build upon the foundation that Christ laid by His teachings and work.

watchinginawe
Sep 4th 2008, 09:39 PM
\Me as an example, I was taught the ten commandments in my youth but not taught the law n the prophets, so I did not have the benefits of such a schoolmaster before the gospel came to me, so in my case and most gentile believers the reverse is true!... I/we need the schoolmaster to reveal deeper revelations of our creator, to build upon the foundation that Christ laid by His teachings and work.Go for it. Just never forget that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Paul says:

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

So yes, brother. We should seek to strengthen our inner man by the Spirit. We should learn and comprehend about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And we should look to be filled with all the fulness of God.

Jesus offered:

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

God Bless!

manichunter
Sep 4th 2008, 10:10 PM
Hello manichunter. I plead guilty to avoiding your threads from time to time. :) But just the same, when I want to discuss things with you, I do it in the forum.

Here is what concerns me with your posts. They seem to me to either assume or have left off completely grace through faith in Jesus Christ. My concern is apparent even in this thread regarding your convictions where once again the cross of Christ doesn't make the list.

When it is brought up to you, to me you seem to marginalize Jesus and the cross by stating they are embodied by the torah thus intimate to you. Torah = Jesus, Word made flesh. That is the postulation that you have advanced in this forum.

Because you find Jesus completely in the torah, then the part of God being made flesh and suffering the cross doesn't seem necessary but instead is relegated to more of a symbolic gesture of God.

I say, return to your first love.

My convictions? They start at my foundation: Jesus Christ. I Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I can build on that confidently as long as my convictions are anchored to my foundation.

I Corinthians 2: And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God Bless!

I do not mind people avoiding my threads, that was not my point. My point was the gossip surrounding it...... You might not be guilty of spreading anything at all, regardless I am at peace with everyone and no one owes me anything......

And yes, most definitely, Yeshua the Messiah is my foundation I live, move, and have my being.

I never looked at it the walk expressed it. I was born a Gentile, within a Gentile education, culture, and mindset. Hence, no I go backwards so to speak to be reeducated into the culture, patterns, and mindset found within the Scripture as my schoolmaster. How else would one understand and realized the renewing of the mind and soul. I am all excited because I am learning all this new stuff, that I have forgot that it is personal first towards myself, then goes application........

walked
Sep 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
I learn from the the whole word of God which includes the law n the prophets found in the old testament.
Does this mean I lean on that for my salvation ?
I say No, it means I lean on it for my renewal and growth in Christ and I lean on Christ as my righteousness and salvation.

I want to be used by God, God cant use christians who are content sipping the milk of the gospel, Christ did not disciple men who were unfamiliar with the law n the prophets, God chose and gave to Christ Jews who were raised and taught from birth the letter of the law n the prophets, God chose and gave them to Christ to disciple so they could boldly and maturely teach His gospel to the fallen world.

SIG
Sep 5th 2008, 03:06 AM
watchinginawe: "You suggest that Christ brings us to the schoolmaster, the law and the prophets. Paul suggests that the schoolmaster, the law, brings us to Christ."

Couldn't these both be happening at the same time?

watchinginawe
Sep 5th 2008, 04:00 AM
watchinginawe: "You suggest that Christ brings us to the schoolmaster, the law and the prophets. Paul suggests that the schoolmaster, the law, brings us to Christ."

Couldn't these both be happening at the same time?I think what is most important is the destination and conclusion of the matter: the cross of Christ.

God Bless!

SIG
Sep 5th 2008, 04:09 AM
Yes--the cross is central--all leads to it and from it.

So-- I guess I don't see it so much as a destination or conclusion, but more as the heart of all matters.

In either case, it's all good...

manichunter
Sep 5th 2008, 05:13 AM
I think what is most important is the destination and conclusion of the matter: the cross of Christ.

God Bless!

The Cross symbolizes the destination where I hang my carnality, and my spirit walks off, where my old man remains under safe keeping and submit, but my new man runs off into his newfound freedom; and where I live the things that pertain to the world for the things that pertain to God. The cross is the both the beginning of a new life and walk of life.

watchinginawe
Sep 5th 2008, 05:04 PM
The Cross symbolizes the destination where I hang my carnality, and my spirit walks off, where my old man remains under safe keeping and submit, but my new man runs off into his newfound freedom; and where I live the things that pertain to the world for the things that pertain to God. The cross is the both the beginning of a new life and walk of life.Exactly!

Mercy there was great, and grace was free;
Pardon there was multiplied to me;
There my burdened soul found liberty, at Calvary.

http://www.abcog.org/music/94bg.htm

God Bless!