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Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 02:52 PM
If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:02 PM
Said Eve "Surely God won't really kill me", as she bit into the forbidden fruit.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:34 PM
Said Eve "Surely God won't really kill me", as she bit into the forbidden fruit.That's not what she said. Neither God, nor Adam, nor Eve, nor the serpent said God would kill the person who ate from the tree.

Adam said nothing of it, but God, Eve, and the serpent each said that the one who ate of the fruit would die. There is no implication of God striking out and killing someone. The text entirely says they would die, which we know did happen, whether it be spiritual death (man lost his connection with God) or physical death (mankind did indeed go on to die). God kept His promise concerning this.

GotQuestions gives a good answer:


Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday "Christian Sabbath" is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" (Colossians 2:14).


In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul declared, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Similarly, Romans 14:5 says, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” These Scriptures make it clear that, for the Christian, Sabbath-keeping is a matter of spiritual freedom, not a command from God. Sabbath-keeping is an issue on which God’s Word instructs us not to judge each other. Sabbath-keeping is a matter that each and every Christian needs to by fully convinced of in his/her own mind.

In the early chapters of the Book of Acts, the first Christians were predominantly Jews. When Gentiles began to receive the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, the Jewish Christians had a dilemma. What aspects of the Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition should Gentile Christians be instructed to obey? The apostles met and discussed the issue in the Jerusalem council (Acts chapter 15). The decision was, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood” (Acts 15:19-20). Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to enforce on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was still God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:34 PM
Said Eve "Surely God won't really kill me", as she bit into the forbidden fruit.

Is that a yes or a no to the question?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:39 PM
What is the difficulty you have separating justification from sanctification? What is the condition of your heart that you need to question God?
Did God rest on the 7th day because He was tired?

No. He rested to appreciate His work. Do you think God no longer wants His creation to be apprciated?

Heb 4:9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God's people.
Heb 4:10 For the one who has entered God's rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his.

ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
ὁ γὰρ εἰσελθὼν εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς κατέπαυσεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔργων αὐτοῦ ὥσπερ ἀπὸ τῶν ἰδίων ὁ θεός.

"As God did from His"

Do you want to be a disicple of Jesus? Do AS He did.
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Both Jesus and Paul observed Shabbat as directed by God.

Jesus said He is the "Lord of Shabbat" (matthew 12:8). If you believe He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and He is the God of the living and not of the dead, then nothing has changed. except Who has authority.

Jesus said Shabbat was made for man. Exactly! The King of the universe has give us a gift.

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You don't want to accept a gift from Jesus? How many times have we done something for someone we love, even if we don't view it with favor? Why would anyone who claims they love God not want to do what He loves?

Contrary to false teaching, Jesus did not 'break the Sabbath.' Jesus affirmed the Shabbat with the things He did and only performed those deeds which were permissable on Shabbat. None of the things He did were against Torah. They were against the traditions of men. The problem of Judaism is that in order to protect the command, they built fences around the command, then walls around the fences and focused on the walls instead of the intent of the command. Jesus didn't practice the religion of Judaism, He obeyed the Father's commands because He fully understood the intent of Torah. Jesus healed on Shabbat because healing is a form of being freed from labor, which is what Shabbat is about. Jesus never sinned. That means He never broke the Torah commands by mistranslating what He Himself wrote.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Fulfilling Torah doesn't mean cancelling or overturning it. The argument that fulfilling means canceling is faulty reasoning by anyone's definition. To make such and arguement only shows the deception of self-will over the will of God. Fulfilling means to complete or make whole, to bring to fullness, to provide what was lacking. Jesus made sure Torah had all the necessary elements in it, especially it's principal one: His death and resurrection. How can anyone correlate His death and resurrection with the taking away of Shabbat? Surely He has provided us spiritual rest from sin, a kind of Shabbat rest in our souls. Is that Shabbat? Hardly. The seventh day made Holy by God was done before sin entered the world, so Shabbat is not a 'rest from sin' as some allude to.

God's rest from the labor of the Creation was on Shabbat. As diciples of Jesus, we do what He did. We rest from our creative process. Are we not to be imitators of Him? Our mind and hands stop creating so we have the time and ability to appreciate what has been created, especially by the Creator. We experience something like He experienced. Since He is holy, then His experience of Shabbat rest was holy.

Only God can decide what action/s is/are Holy. We don't know any better. As Eve if you are in doubt.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:43 PM
Both Jesus and Paul observed Shabbat as directed by God.Jesus "broke" the sabbath by working on it.

And Paul himself said a person was not required to keep the sabbath, and that the Christian was not bound to the regulations of the Law.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:44 PM
GotQuestions gives a good answer:

So since I'm not 'under the Mosaic law' is marrying my sister moral before God (barring any civil laws). Nothing in the "Law of Christ" says I can't.

Please explain.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:46 PM
Jesus "broke" the sabbath by working on it.

And Paul himself said a person was not required to keep the sabbath, and that the Christian was not bound to the regulations of the Law.

That's a false teaching.

Jesus did not 'break the Sabbath.' Jesus affirmed the Shabbat with the things He did and only performed those deeds which were permissable on Shabbat. None of the things He did were against Torah. They were against the traditions of men. The problem of Judaism is that in order to protect the command, they built fences around the command, then walls around the fences and focused on the walls instead of the intent of the command. Jesus didn't practice the religion of Judaism, He obeyed the Father's commands because He fully understood the intent of Torah. Jesus healed on Shabbat because healing is a form of being freed from labor, which is what Shabbat is about. Jesus never sinned. That means He never broke the Torah commands by mistranslating what He Himself wrote.


Sorry I don't abide in the traditions of men that go against God's Word.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:46 PM
What is the difficulty you have separating justification from sanctification? What is the condition of your heart that you need to question God?
Did God rest on the 7th day because He was tired?

No. He rested to appreciate His work. Do you think God no longer wants His creation to be apprciated?

Heb 4:9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God's people.
Heb 4:10 For the one who has entered God's rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his.

ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
ὁ γὰρ εἰσελθὼν εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς κατέπαυσεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔργων αὐτοῦ ὥσπερ ἀπὸ τῶν ἰδίων ὁ θεός.

"As God did from His"

Do you want to be a disicple of Jesus? Do AS He did.
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Both Jesus and Paul observed Shabbat as directed by God.

Jesus said He is the "Lord of Shabbat" (matthew 12:8). If you believe He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and He is the God of the living and not of the dead, then nothing has changed. except Who has authority.

Jesus said Shabbat was made for man. Exactly! The King of the universe has give us a gift.

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You don't want to accept a gift from Jesus? How many times have we done something for someone we love, even if we don't view it with favor? Why would anyone who claims they love God not want to do what He loves?

Contrary to false teaching, Jesus did not 'break the Sabbath.' Jesus affirmed the Shabbat with the things He did and only performed those deeds which were permissable on Shabbat. None of the things He did were against Torah. They were against the traditions of men. The problem of Judaism is that in order to protect the command, they built fences around the command, then walls around the fences and focused on the walls instead of the intent of the command. Jesus didn't practice the religion of Judaism, He obeyed the Father's commands because He fully understood the intent of Torah. Jesus healed on Shabbat because healing is a form of being freed from labor, which is what Shabbat is about. Jesus never sinned. That means He never broke the Torah commands by mistranslating what He Himself wrote.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Fulfilling Torah doesn't mean cancelling or overturning it. The argument that fulfilling means canceling is faulty reasoning by anyone's definition. To make such and arguement only shows the deception of self-will over the will of God. Fulfilling means to complete or make whole, to bring to fullness, to provide what was lacking. Jesus made sure Torah had all the necessary elements in it, especially it's principal one: His death and resurrection. How can anyone correlate His death and resurrection with the taking away of Shabbat? Surely He has provided us spiritual rest from sin, a kind of Shabbat rest in our souls. Is that Shabbat? Hardly. The seventh day made Holy by God was done before sin entered the world, so Shabbat is not a 'rest from sin' as some allude to.

God's rest from the labor of the Creation was on Shabbat. As diciples of Jesus, we do what He did. We rest from our creative process. Are we not to be imitators of Him? Our mind and hands stop creating so we have the time and ability to appreciate what has been created, especially by the Creator. We experience something like He experienced. Since He is holy, then His experience of Shabbat rest was holy.

Only God can decide what action/s is/are Holy. We don't know any better. As Eve if you are in doubt.




Please look at the question again and tell me if we do not regard the Sabbath that according to his command he will honnor His command?

If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Has Gods law been abolished or does it stand as God gave it?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:47 PM
Jesus "broke" the sabbath by working on it.

And Paul himself said a person was not required to keep the sabbath, and that the Christian was not bound to the regulations of the Law.


Y'shua broke the Sabbath according to Jewish Tradition. If he did actually break the Sabbath according to Torah, then he is disqualifed from being Messiah and our Sacrifice by this sin.

I would disagree and say that Y'shua is indeed sinless.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:48 PM
Please look at the question again and tell me if we do not regard the Sabbath that according to his command he will honnor His command?

If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

I'm not your rabbi, Yeshua is. Ask Him.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:49 PM
That's a false teaching.

Jesus did not 'break the Sabbath.' Jesus affirmed the Shabbat with the things He did and only performed those deeds which were permissable on Shabbat. None of the things He did were against Torah. They were against the traditions of men. The problem of Judaism is that in order to protect the command, they built fences around the command, then walls around the fences and focused on the walls instead of the intent of the command. Jesus didn't practice the religion of Judaism, He obeyed the Father's commands because He fully understood the intent of Torah. Jesus healed on Shabbat because healing is a form of being freed from labor, which is what Shabbat is about. Jesus never sinned. That means He never broke the Torah commands by mistranslating what He Himself wrote.


Sorry I don't abide in the traditions of men that go against God's Word.

Do not forget that Jesus admited to working on the Sabbath, and God said no one should work.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:51 PM
What kind of work Firstfruits? You can believe whomever you worship sinned (disobeyed God's commands), but the One I worship is without sin.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:55 PM
I'm not your rabbi, Yeshua is. Ask Him.

Has God changed that His commandments do not mean how God commanded, if it applies for one it must apply to all shouldn't it?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:58 PM
What kind of work Firstfruits? You can believe whomever you worship sinned (disobeyed God's commands), but the One I worship is without sin.

Jesus said that he worked on the Sabbath when he was challenged for healing on the sabbath.

So did the Sabbath no longer apply?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:58 PM
I think ideally in our walks, we should strive for perfection in that we judge nothing of each other before the appointed time. All things should be done out of love for God and our fellow man, as oppossed to personally striving for a sense of self righteousnous. God bless in Christ. Stephen

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 03:59 PM
Open your Bible and show me the body count of all who did not obeserve Shabbat. I'll eagerly wait (patiently of course).

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:01 PM
Open your Bible and show me the body count of all who did not obeserve Shabbat. I'll eagerly wait (patiently of course).

Are you saying then that God no longer honors the Sabbath as he commanded it to be observed and what would happen if broken?

Firstfruits

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:27 PM
Y'shua broke the Sabbath according to Jewish Tradition. If he did actually break the Sabbath according to Torah, then he is disqualifed from being Messiah and our Sacrifice by this sin.


I would disagree and say that Y'shua is indeed sinless.You're disagreeing with what? I never said Jesus had sinned, so don't imply I said so.

Note I kept the word "broke" in quotes. That in itself shows I'm putting an interpretation into the word beyond its face-value definition. The Law specifically says that no "work" is to be done on the Sabbath. The Pharisees pointed out that the disciples were 'harvesting' food for themselves, which was considered work. Jesus is accused of working when He heals a man's arm.

But did Jesus ever say the Pharisees were wrong in pointing out that the disciples (and then Jesus) were wrong in doing work on the Sabbath? No. Instead, He tells them of how King David broke the law by eating bread that was only for the priests.


So much is at least implied here also: David needed (chreian eschen) to eat, and so now do Jesus' disciples. The underlying assumption seems to be that of human need which takes precedence over religious ritual.

...

So far from "eternal moral law," then, Jesus seems to classify the sabbath otherwise. And it was precisely this that his legalistic opponents failed to see. The sabbath was not an end in itself, an absolute that admitted no exceptions. It was intended for man's benefit, his well-being. To elevate it to a place of tyranny over man is to make more of it than was intended; indeed, it would overthrow it altogether.

...

Moreover, it is Jesus who possesses the authority to decide these things. His Lordship over "even" the sabbath demonstrates again the significance of his person and the "new" order of things marked by his arrival. The statement as it is neither confirms nor disallows the continuation of sabbath observance, in explicit terms. But it emphatically affirms Jesus' inherent right to do with the law as he sees fit, and so the foundation for an epochal shift in the meaning of the sabbath is clearly implied.

Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath."

He went on to invite us to take our rest in Him, not in a sabbath day.

And, lastly, Paul twice shows that the Christian is not required to keep the sabbath day.


Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.Paul declares the sabbath day to be a "shadow" of the things that "were to come." Then he declares that the "reality" is Christ. The sabbath day was a shadow of Christ; Christ is who we find rest in.


One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.Of course, Paul knew of the sabbath and that it was considered a "sacred" day, but even still he says that it was not a requirement of all men, only those who felt they should be required of it.

And, as we saw in Acts, the apostles in Jerusalem firmly decided what sort of Laws the Gentile Christians need to follow... none of which included the sabbath.


So since I'm not 'under the Mosaic law' is marrying my sister moral before God (barring any civil laws). Nothing in the "Law of Christ" says I can't.Jesus, the disciples, and Paul each explicitly denounced "sexual immorality." The best place to find out what "sexual immorality" is, is the OT, which included said Law.

But the NT directly states that the sabbath day was a "shadow" of Christ. Likewise is calls the sacrifices "shadows" of Christ. We don't continue performing the sacrifices, do we? No, and the reason for that is because they were "shadows" and their fulfillment, Christ as our sacrifice, had come. Likewise, do we need to keep the sabbath day? No, and the reason for that is because the sabbath was a "shadow" and its fulfillment, Christ as our rest, had come.

Emanate
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:40 PM
Jesus said that he worked on the Sabbath when he was challenged for healing on the sabbath.

So did the Sabbath no longer apply?

Firstfruits


It was the Rabbinic Definition of work. Unless you can find a command that prohibits healing on Sabbath in the Torah.

Emanate
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:42 PM
You're disagreeing with what? I never said Jesus had sinned, so don't imply I said so.

Note I kept the word "broke" in quotes. That in itself shows I'm putting an interpretation into the word beyond its face-value definition. The Law specifically says that no "work" is to be done on the Sabbath. The Pharisees pointed out that the disciples were 'harvesting' food for themselves, which was considered work. Jesus is accused of working when He heals a man's arm.

But did Jesus ever say the Pharisees were wrong in pointing out that the disciples (and then Jesus) were wrong in doing work on the Sabbath? No. Instead, He tells them of how King David broke the law by eating bread that was only for the priests.



Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath."

He went on to invite us to take our rest in Him, not in a sabbath day.

And, lastly, Paul twice shows that the Christian is not required to keep the sabbath day.

Paul declares the sabbath day to be a "shadow" of the things that "were to come." Then he declares that the "reality" is Christ. The sabbath day was a shadow of Christ; Christ is who we find rest in.

Of course, Paul knew of the sabbath and that it was considered a "sacred" day, but even still he says that it was not a requirement of all men, only those who felt they should be required of it.

And, as we saw in Acts, the apostles in Jerusalem firmly decided what sort of Laws the Gentile Christians need to follow... none of which included the sabbath.

Jesus, the disciples, and Paul each explicitly denounced "sexual immorality." The best place to find out what "sexual immorality" is, is the OT, which included said Law.

But the NT directly states that the sabbath day was a "shadow" of Christ. Likewise is calls the sacrifices "shadows" of Christ. We don't continue performing the sacrifices, do we? No, and the reason for that is because they were "shadows" and their fulfillment, Christ as our sacrifice, had come. Likewise, do we need to keep the sabbath day? No, and the reason for that is because the sabbath was a "shadow" and its fulfillment, Christ as our rest, had come.


As I have said before. If our hearts are too rebllious to rest one day othe week, then we are fooling ourselves to believe we are resting our enitre lives in Messiah.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:48 PM
Do you believe, then, that Paul wasn't indicating sabbath-observance was up to the individual?

Emanate
Sep 3rd 2008, 04:52 PM
Do you believe, then, that Paul wasn't indicating sabbath-observance was up to the individual?


I believe Paul was teaching that Sabbath was not about man made rules and regulations. He also was clear that we are not justified by observing Sabbath or not observing Sabbath.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 05:01 PM
I believe Paul was teaching that Sabbath was not about man made rules and regulations.Paul didn't say anything about "man-made rules and regulations" that were attached to the sabbath (or other special days). He simply commented on the observance of said days; if one man wants to observe it he can, if another sees nothing special in it he doesn't have to, but neither can judge the other on the matter.

Can you please respond directly to something I said previously? (I say "directly" because you previously quoted the entirety of what I had written and made a one sentence response to the whole, rather than addressing the individual points.)

But the NT directly states that the sabbath day was a "shadow" of Christ. Likewise it calls the sacrifices "shadows" of Christ. We don't continue performing the sacrifices, do we? No, and the reason for that is because they were "shadows" and their fulfillment, Christ as our sacrifice, had come. Likewise, do we need to keep the sabbath day? No, and the reason for that is because the sabbath was a "shadow" and its fulfillment, Christ as our rest, had come.

I would like your take on this.


He also was clear that we are not justified by observing Sabbath or not observing Sabbath.So, not observing the sabbath doesn't condemn a person anymore than observing it saves us. Further, Jesus Himself invited us to find our rest in Him. Why then do you call me "rebellious" and "foolish" for placing my rest directly in the Son of God just as He said I could?

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 06:24 PM
It was the Rabbinic Definition of work. Unless you can find a command that prohibits healing on Sabbath in the Torah.

Thank you Emanate,

Can you tell me with regards to the OP, If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath? If two men that both love and worship God,one keeps and regards the Sabbath but the other does not keep or regard the Sabbath, when all is said and done will God treat both men the same?

Firstfruits

YoungLink
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:12 PM
I believe that God will treat each according to how they acted based on their knowledge, not whether they technically did the right or wrong thing.
I believe wholeheartedly that the Sabbath day is still meant to be kept now, but not everyone believes the same and I don't think God is going to reject anyone based on misunderstanding of any aspect of our lives.
Observing the Sabbath would be meaningless to someone doing it with the wrong frame of mind.
To pick only one command as the one that is the difference between heaven and hell makes it look like Sabbath keeping Christians believe it is the most important one- I think that any command that is wilfully broken is just as serious.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:37 PM
I believe that God will treat each according to how they acted based on their knowledge, not whether they technically did the right or wrong thing.
I believe wholeheartedly that the Sabbath day is still meant to be kept now, but not everyone believes the same and I don't think God is going to reject anyone based on misunderstanding of any aspect of our lives.
Observing the Sabbath would be meaningless to someone doing it with the wrong frame of mind.
To pick only one command as the one that is the difference between heaven and hell makes it look like Sabbath keeping Christians believe it is the most important one- I think that any command that is wilfully broken is just as serious.

I agree, however when you look at the ten commandments with it do's and don'ts the sabbath stands out as something you should do while the others generally refer to what not to do. IE. thou shalt not etc.

Everyone knows we should not kill, commit adultery, etc but the Sabbath is not in the same league as such.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 07:45 PM
I believe that God will treat each according to how they acted based on their knowledge, not whether they technically did the right or wrong thing.
I believe wholeheartedly that the Sabbath day is still meant to be kept now, but not everyone believes the same and I don't think God is going to reject anyone based on misunderstanding of any aspect of our lives.
Observing the Sabbath would be meaningless to someone doing it with the wrong frame of mind.
To pick only one command as the one that is the difference between heaven and hell makes it look like Sabbath keeping Christians believe it is the most important one- I think that any command that is wilfully broken is just as serious.

How do you address the spirit of the law, and the Spirit being Christ, making it the law of Christ?

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:43 PM
Thank you Emanate,

Can you tell me with regards to the OP, If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath? If two men that both love and worship God,one keeps and regards the Sabbath but the other does not keep or regard the Sabbath, when all is said and done will God treat both men the same?

Firstfruits


The issue surrounding your question revolves around the blood of Messiah, not Sabbath. God will judge all based on the blood of Messiah, not whether or not they observed Sabbath. There is no amount of obedience that will save us. Salvation is a gift.

Should people be stoned or put to death for not observing Sabbath? I will only answer that with the Messiah's words uplifting Torah "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." I believe Y'shua magnified the life found in Torah, not the death. Abolising the handwriting of ordinances against us.

Sabbath is a delight to my family and I, as was prophesied. Sure, I believe everyone should keep the sign of Sabbath, but I am not one for stoning you if you do not.

YoungLink
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:44 PM
How do you address the spirit of the law, and the Spirit being Christ, making it the law of Christ?

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Firstfruits

I don't think I understand the question sorry, haha. What do I believe is keeping the Sabbath in the spirit of the law?

I believe Jesus kept the Sabbath exactly as it was always intended since the command was given. He demonstrated that it was as a blessing for us, not a burden. The "additions to the law" were to try to put some kind of solid guidelines to what was considered "work" to avoid breaking the command, but in the process made the command a burden.
I think that keeping the Sabbath [for me] in the spirit of the law basically means- taking the day off normal work, using the time to read the Bible etc, and not being unhelpful etc to someone in the name of keeping the Sabbath. Eg. When my brother was moving house, I still helped him move furniture into his van- I didn't not help and let him struggle with it alone to keep myself from working.
I don't know if that is what you're asking.

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 08:51 PM
I don't think I understand the question sorry, haha. What do I believe is keeping the Sabbath in the spirit of the law?

I believe Jesus kept the Sabbath exactly as it was always intended since the command was given. He demonstrated that it was as a blessing for us, not a burden. The "additions to the law" were to try to put some kind of solid guidelines to what was considered "work" to avoid breaking the command, but in the process made the command a burden.
I think that keeping the Sabbath [for me] in the spirit of the law basically means- taking the day off normal work, using the time to read the Bible etc, and not being unhelpful etc to someone in the name of keeping the Sabbath. Eg. When my brother was moving house, I still helped him move furniture into his van- I didn't not help and let him struggle with it alone to keep myself from working.
I don't know if that is what you're asking.

Thanks Younglink,

Is therefore the law of Christ the same as the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:03 PM
The issue surrounding your question revolves around the blood of Messiah, not Sabbath. God will judge all based on the blood of Messiah, not whether or not they observed Sabbath. There is no amount of obedience that will save us. Salvation is a gift.

Should people be stoned or put to death for not observing Sabbath? I will only answer that with the Messiah's words uplifting Torah "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." I believe Y'shua magnified the life found in Torah, not the death. Abolising the handwriting of ordinances against us.

Sabbath is a delight to my family and I, as was prophesied. Sure, I believe everyone should keep the sign of Sabbath, but I am not one for stoning you if you do not.

What part of what God commanded is an ordinance that is against us, for instance, If we keep the Sabbath then even though there is a judgment for breaking it we should not think it is against us, but if it is there then we fear because we do not keep it, that is then against us.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

YoungLink
Sep 3rd 2008, 09:46 PM
Thanks Younglink,

Is therefore the law of Christ the same as the law of Moses?

Firstfruits

No problem. :D

I think that yes, it is the same because of this verse:
Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I think it is the same as far as the technicalities of the law are concerned, but Jesus demonstrated Sabbath observance without being legalistic.
It's the same as asking if the Pharisees were keeping the same command as Jesus concerning the Sabbath- yes they were, but the Pharisees were following it meaninglessly, totally missing any real benefit.
I think it was a similar thing when Jesus spoke to them about giving a 10th of their spices- it's not that it was wrong, but they missed the point. In fact they had more obligation than the physical thing that they were doing.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:07 PM
Jesus said that he worked on the Sabbath when he was challenged for healing on the sabbath.

So did the Sabbath no longer apply?

Firstfruits

You need to separate man's ordinances from God's commands. Nothing Jesus did on Shabbat was in conflict with HIS OWN commandment, though in conflict with all the fences some Pharisees and others built around the intent of the command. By the first century, the Pharisees and otehrs were focused on the fences and walls, not the command. Is there any way i can explain that rabbinic Judaism is NOT God's Word anymore than the Pope's rulings are?

You might be interested to know that over a hundred years before Jesus, some sects of Judaism expressed that healing on Shabbat did NOT break Shabbat. What you are doing here is taking some man made ordinances from a sect of Pharisees and applying it to God's Word. That's wrong.

To say Jesus violated His own command as intended is blastphamous.

Instead of trying to trap us for obeying God, perhaps you should just accept that I love God with all my heart, soul and strength, and my only justification to approach the Holy One is through the blood of Messiah. My obedience to Him is in line with my relationship with Jesus, not yours or anyone else's relationship with God.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:27 PM
Instead of trying to trap us for obeying God, perhaps you should just accept that I love God with all my heart, soul and strength, and my only justification to approach the Holy One is through the blood of Messiah. My obedience to Him is in line with my relationship with Jesus, not yours or anyone else's relationship with God.A) Who said you didn't love God?

B) Who said your obedience to God depended upon "anyone else's relationship with God"?

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:30 PM
This thread is carried over from another, so you probably missed a few earlier points.

markedward
Sep 3rd 2008, 10:51 PM
Alright, thanks for answering.

keck553
Sep 3rd 2008, 11:33 PM
The thing is we are all in sanctification. It's not an flash-pan moment, but a process we go through in our individual relationship with God as we draw near to Him. I think it's clear what God wants from us above all is a loving relationship with Him. He wants us to draw near to Him, not for justification He has already provided us through Messiah, but for loving relationship - but God won't do it our way because we have no idea what's profitable for that relationship. We just have to face the fact that our wisdom and ideas fall far short of our Creator's. So God gives us the free gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit to teach us how to approach Him (draw near). Some things may make no sense what-so-ever to us, but that's OK. That's what trust is all about. God is patient. If you step out in trust, He will make sure your foot lands on solid ground, I guarantee it. For me personally, taking Shabbat made absolutely no sense. It was a day I could get all kinds of things done because it's a day off work for me. At the time, I couldn't see any way I could get anything done because there was so much to do. I went on with this internal argument for a long time, and as it continued, my heart became more and more convicted I should just trust and do it. Well, I did. At first I'll admit, if felt like a yoke. All the things I wanted to do, I could see laying around undone. I began to feel guilty about not doing these things on my day off. That's when it struck me that I was in actuality a slave to the world. From then on, everything changed. The yoke of all these little undone things fell off me like scales. I found I had much more enjoyment doing these tasks after the relaxation, family time and spiritual fulfillment of Shabbat. Things I never thought would get done are now done. My family is wholesome, my son is being well aquanted with the Word of God and actually looks forward to "TGIF" when we all can gather and enjoy each other and God's creation, then spend some time in fellowship with friends and studying the Word of God. I can't begin to tell how refreshed and zealous for the LORD I am Saturday night, and Sunday at church. My personal relationship with God has grown 10 fold since I began. I'm serious, I wouldn't lie about this.

I just want my brothers and sisters in Christ to know how awesome it is to unwrap the gift Jesus is LORD of and gave us. With all these scriptures being flung around and people challenged, etc, it appears to be a legalistic argument, but I have to say aside from all that, Shabbat is a blessing I would wish on anyone, if they would just accept it as a gift instead of a curse..

literaryjoe
Sep 4th 2008, 12:28 AM
Do you believe, then, that Paul wasn't indicating sabbath-observance was up to the individual?Greetings, MarkEdward. I can't answer for anyone else here, but since I have an opinion as regards your question I figured I'd take a stab at replying, if you don't mind.

I presume that you have Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17 in mind when you suggest that Paul indicated sabbath-observance was up to the individual? I don't believe that is what Paul was saying; but since it seems to be so obviously what he was saying, perhaps I should explain myself.

A caveat before jumping in to the passages. Of course sabbath-keeping, like all other choices, is up to the individual. The greater question, I think, is whether there is right or wrong involved when a person makes a choice regarding to keep or not to keep a sabbath. I believe there is a right and a wrong choice. Of course, we make right and wrong choices all day, everyday, and they are--very fortunately for us--all covered by the blood of Jesus (assuming we accept that freely-offered and dearly-bought gift).

The reason we care about this question, then, is that you and I both want to make choices that are in keeping with God's instruction. After all, "If you love Me, you keep my commandments," right?

The context of Romans 14 is set out for us in the opening verse:
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. (Romans 14:1 ESV) emphasis added We must read Scripture as much as possible through the lens of its original audience, not as if it was directed at our modern thoughts and assumptions—at least not originally. Having put on 1st Century glasses, we quickly realize that it is entirely impossible for either Paul or his audience to have thought about the commandments of God as found in the Torah as matters of opinion.

Henceforth, as we read the rest of the passage we must ask ourselves, “So what is the topic of discussion here?” Two items of interest are of particular help in this effort: (1) Paul wrote the letter to the Romans around 57 A.D., most likely while he was staying in Corinth, prior to his journey toward Jerusalem, as described in Acts 18 & 19. (2) There are two other passages, both in 1 Corinthians, that take the same tone and have an identical message.

So, let’s turn to 1 Cor 8 and 1 Cor 10 to see if they specify more clearly the topic that is under discussion.
Now concerning food offered to idols…. (1 Corinthians 8:1a ESV)Aha! The topic at last! Does it remain true in 1 Cor 10?
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry (v10)…Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience (v25)….But, if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice, then do not eat it,” (v28Now what we have here in chapter 10 of 1 Cor is very instructive, for once again we have language that if taken out of context could be construed to indicate that Paul thought we could eat anything we want. But note that this “eat whatever” assumes the underlying constraints that all believers considered universal: namely, the kashrut laws of Torah and the apostolic decrees of Acts 15. In other words, we ought to read Paul as saying, “Eat whatever permissible meat you find in the market.” He doesn’t specify this precisely because it is so obvious to his first century audience. No one would dare think that the dietary laws nor the decree of the Jerusalem Council were matters of opinion.

So we find ourselves in the same situation when Paul begins to speak of observing days in Romans 14. Paul is clearly still discussing issues of personal opinion, note:
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (Romans 14:5 ESV)The Sabbath, eternally commanded throughout the only writings they consider Scripture at this point, is most certainly not in view here.

Historically speaking then, is there any evidence of any group of believers, or even an individual believer, who considered the Sabbath to be less than obligatory at this point? There’s not a single fog on the glass of such an idea. It is not until the letters of Ignatius in 110 that we have even the hint of such an idea. And Ignatius suggests that we ought to observe both the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day.

So were there disputes regarding specific days at the time Paul was writing? In fact, there were. The Pharisees fasted on certain days of the week and the Sadducees fasted on different days. The formerly pagan Gentiles had an entirely different set of customary holy days. If there were any Essenes who had come to faith, we have yet another set of holy days, indeed an entirely different calendar—one based on the sun instead of on the moon. And the proto-gnostic sects proclaimed another set of additional fasts and holy days in honor of angels.

So it seems most logical to understand that Paul is discussing voluntary fast days and meat that had been offered to idols, not clearly commanded Sabbaths nor the liberty to suddenly freely indulge in what God had called an abomination.

I've rambled on quite a bit here, so I'll address Colossians 2 in another post. Thanks for your kind attention; I hope if nothing else I've been able to shed some light on how some believers could think that Paul never "let us off the hook" in regard to the Sabbath.

I forgot an important ancillary point: the fact that Romans 14 is bracketed by verse 1 indicating that this about matters of opinion, and verse 21 where Paul says, "It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble." is yet another evidence that the topic of this pericope is food offered to idols rather than the dietary laws. The reason is that there is nothing in the dietary laws about drinking wine, while it was extraordinarily common for wine to have been dedicated to an idol just as meat could be. In fact, it was customary for Gentiles to splash a "libation offering" out in front of their household altar/idol upon opening a new bottle of wine.

literaryjoe
Sep 4th 2008, 02:45 AM
You've all ready become familiar with my basic approach to these passages so just a few quick questions in regard to Colossians 2. First the passage itself:
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)According to the text are we to prevent people from passing judgment on us for abstaining from food and drink or from partaking of food and drink? Are we supposed to let no one pass judgment on us for keeping a Sabbath or for not keeping a Sabbath?

How about this: is this judgment in regard to how we keep the Sabbath or in regard to if we keep the Sabbath? Ah--the text doesn't tell us. I see; so we're back to historical context once again.

There were quite a few arguments about how and even when to keep some of the biblical sabbaths in the first century, but there wasn't any argument about whether or not to keep the sabbaths. So, I draw the conclusion that we are most certainly not to pass judgment on one another, but that it also quite clear that Paul wasn't letting us off the hook.

As the 39 Articles of Religion say:
Article VII. Of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral.There are certainly quite a few godly people that disagree with this viewpoint, but to the best that I can tell this understanding seems to make the best sense out of the whole picture of Scriptural communication.

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 06:47 AM
No problem. :D

I think that yes, it is the same because of this verse:
Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I think it is the same as far as the technicalities of the law are concerned, but Jesus demonstrated Sabbath observance without being legalistic.
It's the same as asking if the Pharisees were keeping the same command as Jesus concerning the Sabbath- yes they were, but the Pharisees were following it meaninglessly, totally missing any real benefit.
I think it was a similar thing when Jesus spoke to them about giving a 10th of their spices- it's not that it was wrong, but they missed the point. In fact they had more obligation than the physical thing that they were doing.

If therefore as it is written that Jesus it that spirit, then how do you explain this scripture?

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruit

YoungLink
Sep 4th 2008, 11:36 AM
If therefore as it is written that Jesus it that spirit, then how do you explain this scripture?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruit

Well I'm not exactly sure, but God's Spirit I don't believe will lead us against His law.
Verse 16 says "..walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." I realise that none of the "works of the flesh" listed mention working on the Sabbath, but the Sabbath isn't brought up in that chapter at all anyway.
It seems to be about relying on the law (circumcision specifically here) to justify us, as opposed to observing in obedience.
Sorry, I feel like I keep not answering the question your asking.. lol

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 11:48 AM
Well I'm not exactly sure, but God's Spirit I don't believe will lead us against His law.
Verse 16 says "..walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." I realise that none of the "works of the flesh" listed mention working on the Sabbath, but the Sabbath isn't brought up in that chapter at all anyway.
It seems to be about relying on the law (circumcision specifically here) to justify us, as opposed to observing in obedience.
Sorry, I feel like I keep not answering the question your asking.. lol

Thank you for trying Younglink,

With regards to the following, if by following Jesus we are not under the law/obligated to do those things contained in the law, may I ask what it means to be justified?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

This as you can tell is concerning Jesus and the works of the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 01:00 PM
Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath."

He went on to invite us to take our rest in Him, not in a sabbath day.

And, lastly, Paul twice shows that the Christian is not required to keep the sabbath day.

Paul declares the sabbath day to be a "shadow" of the things that "were to come." Then he declares that the "reality" is Christ. The sabbath day was a shadow of Christ; Christ is who we find rest in.

Jesus, the disciples, and Paul each explicitly denounced "sexual immorality." The best place to find out what "sexual immorality" is, is the OT, which included said Law.

But the NT directly states that the sabbath day was a "shadow" of Christ. Likewise is calls the sacrifices "shadows" of Christ. We don't continue performing the sacrifices, do we? No, and the reason for that is because they were "shadows" and their fulfillment, Christ as our sacrifice, had come. Likewise, do we need to keep the sabbath day? No, and the reason for that is because the sabbath was a "shadow" and its fulfillment, Christ as our rest, had come.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" is part of Torah, and it carried a death-penalty with it - so why do you keep it, since you don't believe in keeping Torah?

Why do you honor your mother and father - since you don't believe in keeping Torah?

Are you free to steal, to murder, to bear false witness against your neighbor because Yeshua fulfilled Torah?

Jesus is the Lord who sanctifies us, and God said,

"Speak also to the sons of Israel, saying, Truly you shall keep My sabbaths. For it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I am Jehovah who sanctifies you." (Exo.31: 13).

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever. For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." (Exo.31: 17).

The doctrine of man says that God apparently has changed His mind about these things.

ananias

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 01:09 PM
If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

I guess that God will honor His command regarding the Sabbath when people break His command to the same extent that He will honor His command that a woman caught in adultery is to be stoned to death, whenever a woman is caught in adultery - BUT, or course, women don't have to be faithful anymore - it's not necessary - since the Law regarding adultery was only a picture and a shadow of the Church of Christ, which God requires must remain faithful to Yeshua -to Yahweh and His commands.

ananias

Emanate
Sep 4th 2008, 02:25 PM
I guess that God will honor His command regarding the Sabbath when people break His command to the same extent that He will honor His command that a woman caught in adultery is to be stoned to death, whenever a woman is caught in adultery - BUT, or course, women don't have to be faithful anymore - it's not necessary - since the Law regarding adultery was only a picture and a shadow of the Church of Christ, which God requires must remain faithful to Yeshua -to Yahweh and His commands.

ananias


That is a fascinating story on how Y'shua upheld Torah. It is interesting to look at the laws regarding adultery in Torah and how they were violated when they brought her to Y'shua. Very good mini study.

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 03:03 PM
Thank you for trying Younglink,

With regards to the following, if by following Jesus we are not under the law/obligated to do those things contained in the law, may I ask what it means to be justified?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Acts 13:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

This as you can tell is concerning Jesus and the works of the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits,

We're not obligated to do those things contained in the Law, you say?

So we can commit adultery, steal, lie and do as we please?

We are not justified through our obedience to Torah - we are justified by the blood of Christ which He shed because of our transgression of Torah.

So just because we are not justified through our obedience to Torah and are therefore no longer under Torah with regard to our salvation, we no longer have to obey Torah? Is that what Paul taught?

Sin is the transgression of Torah, and Paul said,

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!" (Rom.6: 15).

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 03:15 PM
Firstfruits,

We're not obligated to do those things contained in the Law, you say?

So we can commit adultery, steal, lie and do as we please?

We are not justified through our obedience to Torah - we are justified by the blood of Christ which He shed because of our transgression of Torah.

So just because we are not justified through our obedience to Torah and are therefore no longer under Torah with regard to our salvation, we no longer have to obey Torah? Is that what Paul taught?

Sin is the transgression of Torah, and Paul said,

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!" (Rom.6: 15).

ananias

If we do any of those things mentioned then we would not fulful the law of Christ which is to love one another;

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 03:17 PM
How does God love us Firstfruits? Please be specific.

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 03:33 PM
If we do any of those things mentioned then we would not fulful the law of Christ which is to love one another;


Firstfruits

Exactly. To love our neighbor is the second of the two greatest commandments. And what about the greatest of the two greatest commandments - the commandment to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength? If we don't do the one thing God gave us as the everlasting sign that He is our God, what are we saying about our attitude to the greatest commandment?

"Speak also to the sons of Israel, saying, Truly you shall keep My sabbaths. For it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I am Jehovah who sanctifies you." (Exo.31: 13).

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever. For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." (Exo.31: 17).

If we can break the greatest commandment willfully by disregarding the Sabbath God gave us, then why can't we break the second greatest commandment also?

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 03:33 PM
How does God love us Firstfruits? Please be specific.

How does God love us? you ask.

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

God love us even though we may not love him, that is how we should love one another.

Doe that answer your question or do you need more?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 03:38 PM
Exactly. To love our neighbor is the second of the two greatest commandments. And what about the greatest of the two greatest commandments - the commandment to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength? If we don't do the one thing God gave us as the everlasting sign that He is our God, what are we saying about our attitude to the greatest commandment?

"Speak also to the sons of Israel, saying, Truly you shall keep My sabbaths. For it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I am Jehovah who sanctifies you." (Exo.31: 13).

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever. For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." (Exo.31: 17).

If we can break the greatest commandment wilfully by disregarding the Sabbath God gave us, then why can't we break the second greatest commandment also?

ananias

When Jesus said that we should love God and love one another he did not add, "and also keep the Sabbath or that which is written in the law", if he did, do you have scripture to show this?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 04:40 PM
When Jesus said that we should love God and love one another he did not add, "and also keep the Sabbath or that which is written in the law", if he did, do you have scripture to show this?

Firstfruits

When Jesus said that we should love God and love one another he did not add, "and also do not commit adultery, do not lie, do not steal or disobey that which is written in the Law", if he did, do you have scripture to show this?

ananias

one_lost_coin
Sep 4th 2008, 04:46 PM
Jesus said that he worked on the Sabbath when he was challenged for healing on the sabbath.

So did the Sabbath no longer apply?

Firstfruits

John Chrysostom, St [347-407 AD]
Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew
Homily 39 on the Gospel of Matthew

After this He mentions another reason likewise; "For the Son of man," saith He, "is Lord of the Sabbath day;"speaking it of Himself. But Mark relates Him to have said this of our common nature also; for He said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Wherefore then was he punished that was gathering the sticks? Because if the laws were to be despised even at the beginning, of course they would scarcely be observed afterwards. For indeed the Sabbath did at the first confer many and great benefits; for instance, it made them gentle towards those of their household, and humane; it taught them God's providence and the creation, as Ezekiel saith;it trained them by degrees to abstain from wickedness, and disposed them to regard the things of the Spirit... But He Himself, in the very act of giving the law of the Sabbath, did even therein darkly signify that He will have them refrain from the evil works only, by the saying, "Ye must do no work, except what shall be done for your life."And in the temple too all went on, and with more diligence and double toil.Thus even by the very shadow He was secretly opening unto them the truth.

Did Christ then, it will be said, repeal a thing so highly profitable? Far from it; nay, He greatly enhanced it. For it was time for them to be trained in all things by the higher rules, and it was unnecessary that his hands should be bound, who was freed from wickedness, winged for all good works; or that men should hereby learn that God made all things; or that they should so be made gentle, who are called to imitate God's own love to mankind that they should make one day a festival, who are commanded to keep a feast all their life long; ("For let us keep the feast," it is said, "not with old leaven, neither with leaven of malice and wickedness; but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth"); as neither need they stand by an ark and a golden altar, who have the very Lord of all for their inmate, and in all things hold communion with Him; by prayer, and by oblation, and by scriptures, and by almsgiving, and by having Him within them.

Lo now, wily is any Sabbath required, by him who is always keeping the feast, whose conversation is in Heaven?

one_lost_coin
Sep 4th 2008, 05:00 PM
The world is made to be the site where God will live in communion with the people He created. That's what the seventh day, the Sabbath, means (Genesis 2:1-3 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis2.htm)).

Hebrew 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
"As I swore in my wrath,'They shall not enter my rest,'"
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." 5And again in this passage he said,
"They shall not enter my rest."
6Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.-ESV

There is a deeper understanding of Sabbath and its purpose.

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 05:43 PM
How does God love us? you ask.

1 Jn 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

God love us even though we may not love him, that is how we should love one another.

Doe that answer your question or do you need more?

Firstfruits

Seems to me like He did something very physical for us. So, how are you going to love Him?

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 06:13 PM
"Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?

Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Mat.22: 36-40).

The first five commandments have to do with our love for God.

The last five have to do with our love for our neighbor.

But love for neighbor does not only consist of "do nots" (negatives) such as do not steal, do not lie, do not steal, etc - love for neighbor consists also of certain things we WILL DO (positives) if we love our neighbor:

"He answered and said to them, He who has two coats, let him give to him who has none. And he who has food, let him do likewise." (Luk.3: 11).

Love is not merely something we refrain from doing (having other gods before God and making images to worship; and not commiting adultery, not stealing, etc). Love is also an action:

"He who has two coats, let him give to him who has none".

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exo.20; 8).

"Speak also to the sons of Israel, saying, Truly you shall keep My sabbaths. For it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I am Jehovah who sanctifies you." (Exo.31: 13).

"It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever. For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." (Exo.31: 17).

The ONE THING that God commanded we do to show our love for Him (the first five commandments are to do with our love for God), and thousands are taught that they may not do it - they may not show their love for God in this way - because the doctrine of man teaches that we are breaking a law when we obey the commandment of God.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 06:24 PM
When Jesus said that we should love God and love one another he did not add, "and also do not commit adultery, do not lie, do not steal or disobey that which is written in the Law", if he did, do you have scripture to show this?

ananias

For this thou shalt not!!!

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Tell me where therefore is the confusion?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 06:30 PM
Tell me where therefore is the confusion?

Firstfruits




So I guess that means in God's view, it's moral for a man to marry his sister, or that two men can marry? becaue I don't see that here.

The confusion lies in Greek philosophy and rebellion.

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 06:34 PM
Seems to me like He did something very physical for us. So, how are you going to love Him?

God truly did a physical thing but the question is why?

Rom 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Heb 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

What are we following is it a carnal commandment or the Spirit?

Firstfruits

HisLeast
Sep 4th 2008, 06:39 PM
While I understand this might not be the intent, I find these threads come with a subtle implication -> "we've got sabbath right, you've got sabbath wrong". This weighed heavily on my heart for years before I buckled down and studied the OT. I have an unconventional view... so brace yourselves.

:note:NOBODY OBSERVES THE SABBATH CORRECTLY:note:
(except maybe some orthodox Jews)

There's something mysteriously absent from the great debate on when Sabbath is (sat. vs sun.) and if we Gentiles are bound to it. That missing component is the remainder of the sabbath commands.

Exodus 23:10-11
10 "For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.

Leviticus 25:3-7
3 For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. 6 Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten.

... and those scriptures are just the beginning. Every seventh YEAR is a sabbath. After 7 of 7 years, there's another special sabbath called a Jubilee. There's a vast number of commands for Jubilee years that are no less law than resting every 7 days... but they're NEVER mentioned in context of these discussions. Things like... returning land to its ancestral owners after 50 years, cancellation of debts, releasing people from contractual duties

The implications of Jubilee are so vast, "Sabbath" is more an economic model than just a day when you rest. The Torah even advises us that all capital be priced according to the purchase date's proximity to the Jubilee year.

... so before anyone suggests that I'm dishonoring the sabbath, I would like to ask...
- Have you made preparations for debt cancellations for the coming Jubilee?
- Are you going to return your house to its ancestral owner?
- Will you sell your house using a price based on proximity to Jubilee?
- Can you go a year living off land that is not intensely farmed?

If not, then why aren't you keeping the sabbath?
(Don't beat yourself up too hard about it. NOT ONE of us is, or even can, "keep the sabbath" as it is written in the Torah).

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
Sorry, I don't live in the nation of Israel. As Jesus perfectly followed the INTENT of Torah, I follow Him the best I can, simply because I love Him and for NO OTHER REASON. When you love someone, you don't turn your back to them.

If you want to go over all 613, and detail which ones can be observed and which ones can't and the specific reasons why they can't, we can start another thread about it. It will actually be revealing since most Christians, probably without realizing it, follow the INTENT of 95% of all Torah instructions that are observable.

So we're all quibbling over 5%. But..if it keeps us in the Word, and we all respect each other, then I'm OK with that.

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 06:59 PM
Sorry, I don't live in the nation of Israel. As Jesus perfectly followed the INTENT of Torah, I follow Him the best I can, simply because I love Him and for NO OTHER REASON. When you love someone, you don't turn your back to them.

If you want to go over all 613, and detail which ones can be observed and which ones can't and the specific reasons why they can't, we can start another thread about it. It will actually be revealing since most Christians, probably without realizing it, follow the INTENT of 95% of all Torah instructions that are observable.

So we're all quibbling over 5%. But..if it keeps us in the Word, and we all respect each other, then I'm OK with that.

Knowing that the law or the works of the law are not of faith, who are you pleasing since it is impossible to please God without faith. The Sabbath is not of faith.

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Firstfruits

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 07:01 PM
I don't know if this was brought up in a previous post or not, so I apologize if it's a duplicate answer....
BUT-
Jesus BECAME the sabbath. We get our "rest" through him. Jesus didn't come to abolish the laws, but to FULFILL THEM. The sabbath was part of the Old Covenant.
However; It has been superceded with a NEW covenant. We are no longer under the Mosaic / Old Covenant laws.;)

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 07:14 PM
God truly did a physical thing but the question is why?

Rom 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Heb 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

What are we following is it a carnal commandment or the Spirit?

Firstfruits

How is the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in us if it is not through our acts of love and obedience to God and our acts of love to our neighbor - that is, our obedience to the ten commandments (all ten, and not nine) produced through the Spirit of Christ who dwells in us?

We show our love for our neighbor by our acts of love - not just what we refrain from doing.

And we show our love for God by resting in Him especially one day of the week and spending the day in receiving teaching, catching up on our spiritual food (reading and studying His Word), prayer, worship, joy on the Sabbath day? If this isn't true then why do people go to church on Sunday? The truth is most will accept it, if this is said about a Sunday - but not if it's said about a Saturday.

Only the command to keep the Sabbath DAY is one of the ten commandments - not the command to keep the Sabbath YEAR. There is nothing WRONG with farmers choosing to keep the Sabbath-year and Jubilee year, if that's what they choose - it's their right - as long as they understand that keeping the Sabbath YEAR, Sabbath DAY etc has nothing to do with salvation - but we can show our love for God in this way if we choose to - and since the command to honor God's Sabbath-day is one of the ten commandments, what's wrong with thus honoring God by honoring His Sabbath-day which is an everlasting sign between God and His people that HE is the Lord who sanctifies us?

ananias

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 07:22 PM
How is the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in us if it is not through our acts of love and obedience to God and our acts of love to our neighbor - that is, our obedience to the ten commandments (all ten, and not nine) produced through the Spirit of Christ who dwells in us?

We show our love for our neighbor by our acts of love - not just what we refrain from doing.

And we show our love for God by resting in Him especially one day of the week and spending the day in receiving teaching, catching up on our spiritual food (reading and studying His Word), prayer, worship, joy on the Sabbath day? If this isn't true then why do people go to church on Sunday? The truth is most will accept it, if this is said about a Sunday - but not if it's said about a Saturday.

Only the command to keep the Sabbath DAY is one of the ten commandments - not the command to keep the Sabbath YEAR. There is nothing WRONG with farmers choosing to keep the Sabbath-year and Jubilee year, if that's what they choose - it's their right - as long as they understand that keeping the Sabbath YEAR, Sabbath DAY etc has nothing to do with salvation - but we can show our love for God in this way if we choose to - and since the command to honor God's Sabbath-day is one of the ten commandments, what's wrong with thus honoring God by honoring His Sabbath-day which is an everlasting sign between God and His people that HE is the Lord who sanctifies us?

ananias

ananias

By which law?

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

By what works are we justified in the sight of God?

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 07:24 PM
"And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev.12: 17).

"Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev.14: 12).

The first five commandments are to do with our love for God - the last five are to do with our love for our neighbor.

The doctrine of man says we may not keep the commandments of God.

ananias

YoungLink
Sep 4th 2008, 07:31 PM
Thank you for trying Younglink,

With regards to the following, if by following Jesus we are not under the law/obligated to do those things contained in the law, may I ask what it means to be justified?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

This as you can tell is concerning Jesus and the works of the law of Moses.

Firstfruits

I believe we are obligated to keep the Sabbath, just as we are obligated to keep the other commandments.
Belief in Jesus' lordship and resurrection is what justifies us, we keep the commands to follow Him.
Not being under the law I think means that the law doesn't have the hold on us as it previously did- we can't justify ourselves by our observance, and we are no longer accountable for our past failures if we are forgiven and living repentantly.

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 07:42 PM
"And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev.12: 17).

"Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev.14: 12).

The first five commandments are to do with our love for God - the last five are to do with our love for our neighbor.

The doctrine of man says we may not keep the commandments of God.

ananias


Is this therefore the doctrine of men?

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

By what works are we justified in the sight of God?

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 07:45 PM
I believe we are obligated to keep the Sabbath, just as we are obligated to keep the other commandments.
Belief in Jesus' lordship and resurrection is what justifies us, we keep the commands to follow Him.
Not being under the law I think means that the law doesn't have the hold on us as it previously did- we can't justify ourselves by our observance, and we are no longer accountable for our past failures if we are forgiven and living repentantly.

Then it would also mean that we are justified in the sight of God by doing that which is of the law.

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 07:45 PM
I don't know if this was brought up in a previous post or not, so I apologize if it's a duplicate answer....
BUT-
Jesus BECAME the sabbath. We get our "rest" through him. Jesus didn't come to abolish the laws, but to FULFILL THEM. The sabbath was part of the Old Covenant.
However; It has been superceded with a NEW covenant. We are no longer under the Mosaic / Old Covenant laws.;)

Sorry, but many of us consider that a false teaching. God no more becomes a day He set apart as holy that I can become a car.

Study Hebrews 3-4

Three times in chapters 3 and 4 Paul the writer quotes Psalms 95:7 where it says "Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts..." This is an important point we will miss if we do not understand the use of the word "today".

Psa 95:1 O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 95:2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving, Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
Psa 95:3 For the LORD is a great God And a great King above all gods,
Psa 95:4 In whose hand are the depths of the earth, The peaks of the mountains are His also.
Psa 95:5 The sea is His, for it was He who made it, And His hands formed the dry land.
Psa 95:6 Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.
Psa 95:7 For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,
Psa 95:8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
Psa 95:9 "When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
Psa 95:10 "For forty years I loathed that generation, And said they are a people who err in their heart, And they do not know My ways.
Psa 95:11 "Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest."

Read Psalms 95 and observe the ways that God is described. In verses 8-11, what is it talking abouts when it's speaking of entering "My Rest" (m'nuchah). What is this a literal reference to?

Verses 8-9 is drawing us back to soemthing that occurred in the 'wilderness" when Israel wandered around for 40 years. The English word "rebellion" or "provocation" in verse 8 is the Hebrew word "m'riybah'. This is referring to the account in Numbers 20:1-13. As an important time reference, this is toward the end of the 40 years of wandering. This account takes place as the Israelites are assembling once again to take the Land.

Num 20:1 Then the sons of Israel, the whole congregation, came to the wilderness of Zin in the first month; and the people stayed at Kadesh. Now Miriam died there and was buried there.
Num 20:2 There was no water for the congregation, and they assembled themselves against Moses and Aaron.
Num 20:3 The people thus contended with Moses and spoke, saying, "If only we had perished when our brothers perished before the LORD!
Num 20:4 "Why then have you brought the LORD'S assembly into this wilderness, for us and our beasts to die here?
Num 20:5 "Why have you made us come up from Egypt, to bring us in to this wretched place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates, nor is there water to drink."
Num 20:6 Then Moses and Aaron came in from the presence of the assembly to the doorway of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to them;
Num 20:7 and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 20:8 "Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink."
Num 20:9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him;
Num 20:10 and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, "Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?" Num 20:11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.
Num 20:12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."
Num 20:13 Those were the waters of Meribah, because the sons of Israel contended with the LORD, and He proved Himself holy among them.

What is the main complaint against Moses (and therefore God)? Can you see the connection between verse 5 and Psalms 95? Who is tested at M'riybah? The people, Moses, Aaron, or all of them?

Psalm 95 uses the word 'today'. This is the word 'ha-yom' (the day).

Now read Exodus 16:11-30, the account of the manna and the Sabbath. Now read Exodus 16:25 and cound the number of times 'today' is used in this verse. Now, go to Hebrews 3:78-4:7 again and count the times the phrase, "Today, if you will hear His voice..." is used.

Indeed, the writer of Hebrews makes this commection between 'ha-yom' and the Sabbath, which is why Psalms 95 is referred to as the "Sabbath Psalm".

Now, is the Psalmist in 95 speaking of the literal weekly Sabbath? Is the writer of Hebrews speaking of the literal Sabbath in chapters 3 and 4? Then what 'rest' did the generation in the wilderness NOT enter? Was it not the 'rest' of ENTERING the land? So what is Psalms 95 and Hbrews 3 and 4 using the 'rest' term for?

Read Hebrews 2:5 and answer what is the venue of this book? What is the writer speaking of? Just like Psalms 95's 'rest' has a deeper meaning of the "world to come", so the writer of Hebrews is making this point as well. He is using the "ha yom" of the Sabbath as a picture of the eternal day of the World to Come.

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 07:51 PM
Then it would also mean that we are justified in the sight of God by doing that which is of the law.

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

There you go with that justification thing again....:o.

Let's try this...Do you have children?

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 07:57 PM
Sorry, but many of us consider that a false teaching. God no more becomes a day He set apart as holy that I can become a car.

Study Hebrews 3-4

Three times in chapters 3 and 4 Paul the writer quotes Psalms 95:7 where it says "Today if you will hear his voice, don't harden your hearts..." This is an important point we will miss if we do not understand the use of the word "today".

Psa 95:1 O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 95:2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving, Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
Psa 95:3 For the LORD is a great God And a great King above all gods,
Psa 95:4 In whose hand are the depths of the earth, The peaks of the mountains are His also.
Psa 95:5 The sea is His, for it was He who made it, And His hands formed the dry land.
Psa 95:6 Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.
Psa 95:7 For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice,
Psa 95:8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
Psa 95:9 "When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
Psa 95:10 "For forty years I loathed that generation, And said they are a people who err in their heart, And they do not know My ways.
Psa 95:11 "Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest."

Read Psalms 95 and observe the ways that God is described. In verses 8-11, what is it talking abouts when it's speaking of entering "My Rest" (m'nuchah). What is this a literal reference to?

Verses 8-9 is drawing us back to soemthing that occurred in the 'wilderness" when Israel wandered around for 40 years. The English word "rebellion" or "provocation" in verse 8 is the Hebrew word "m'riybah'. This is referring to the account in Numbers 20:1-13. As an important time reference, this is toward the end of the 40 years of wandering. This account takes place as the Israelites are assembling once again to take the Land.

Num 20:1 Then the sons of Israel, the whole congregation, came to the wilderness of Zin in the first month; and the people stayed at Kadesh. Now Miriam died there and was buried there.
Num 20:2 There was no water for the congregation, and they assembled themselves against Moses and Aaron.
Num 20:3 The people thus contended with Moses and spoke, saying, "If only we had perished when our brothers perished before the LORD!
Num 20:4 "Why then have you brought the LORD'S assembly into this wilderness, for us and our beasts to die here?
Num 20:5 "Why have you made us come up from Egypt, to bring us in to this wretched place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates, nor is there water to drink."
Num 20:6 Then Moses and Aaron came in from the presence of the assembly to the doorway of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to them;
Num 20:7 and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 20:8 "Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink."
Num 20:9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him;
Num 20:10 and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, "Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?" Num 20:11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.
Num 20:12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."
Num 20:13 Those were the waters of Meribah, because the sons of Israel contended with the LORD, and He proved Himself holy among them.

What is the main complaint against Moses (and therefore God)? Can you see the connection between verse 5 and Psalms 95? Who is tested at M'riybah? The people, Moses, Aaron, or all of them?

Psalm 95 uses the word 'today'. This is the word 'ha-yom' (the day).

Now read Exodus 16:11-30, the account of the manna and the Sabbath. Now read Exodus 16:25 and cound the number of times 'today' is used in this verse. Now, go to Hebrews 3:78-4:7 again and count the times the phrase, "Today, if you will hear His voice..." is used.

Indeed, the writer of Hebrews makes this commection between 'ha-yom' and the Sabbath, which is why Psalms 95 is referred to as the "Sabbath Psalm".

Now, is the Psalmist in 95 speaking of the literal weekly Sabbath? Is the writer of Hebrews speaking of the literal Sabbath in chapters 3 and 4? Then what 'rest' did the generation in the wilderness NOT enter? Was it not the 'rest' of ENTERING the land? So what is Psalms 95 and Hbrews 3 and 4 using the 'rest' term for?

Read Hebrews 2:5 and answer what is the venue of this book? What is the writer speaking of? Just like Psalms 95's 'rest' has a deeper meaning of the "world to come", so the writer of Hebrews is making this point as well. He is using the "ha yom" of the Sabbath as a picture of the eternal day of the World to Come.

Is the folowing a false teaching, has the covenant made at Sinai been taken away or not?

Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away The first, that he may establish The second.


Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 08:01 PM
By which law?

Rom 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 9:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

By what works are we justified in the sight of God?

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

We are not justified by works - but if we are led by the Spirit of Christ we will keep His commandments - because the love of God in us will constrain us to obey His commandments:

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." (Joh.14: 21).

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 4th 2008, 08:07 PM
We are not justified by works - but if we are led by the Spirit of Christ we will keep His commandments - because the love of God in us will constrain us to obey His commandments:

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." (Joh.14: 21).

ananias


Does what Paul said in the following that not to follow the law means not to love God?

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruits

YoungLink
Sep 4th 2008, 08:14 PM
Then it would also mean that we are justified in the sight of God by doing that which is of the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Firstfruits

Well, no one is justified by the law, as the law shows up our sin rather than making us clean. If you can look at the law and feel justified then you'd be the 2nd person ever.

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 08:15 PM
For many years the Spirit of Christ in me was teaching me that there is nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath-day holy, because it is a sign between God and His people forever that He is our God, the God who sanctifies us - and Jesus is the One who sanctifies us by His Spirit.

But the doctrine of man which is very legalistic about banning obedience to the commandments of God kept me sitting on the fence.

That's why I'm really grateful to many here at Bible Forums and other Internet Christian Forums - just recently a number of people finally pushed me off the fence by making me realize things I never realized before. The one thing I hope I've learnt for once and for all is that I should listen to the voice of the Lamb of God within me and not to the doctrines of the organised Church. Listening to the doctrines of the organised Church is a huge mistake.

I have such peace now it's uncanny - peace to keep Sabbath unto the Lord and to celebrate His Feasts and to worship Him the way He wants me to worship Him - and FREEDOM from man-made laws and man-made religion. Praise God.

ananias

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 08:20 PM
Does what Paul said in the following that not to follow the law means not to love God?

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruits

Not being under the Law does not mean that the Spirit of Christ in us will not constrain us to keep the commandments of God, Firstfruits.

ananias

keck553
Sep 4th 2008, 08:52 PM
Is the folowing a false teaching, has the covenant made at Sinai been taken away or not?

Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away The first, that he may establish The second.


Firstfruits

answer the questions in the study I presented you. We both can learn from shedding our opinions and looking to God for truth. Give it a try friend.

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 09:04 PM
Sorry, but many of us consider that a false teaching. God no more becomes a day He set apart as holy that I can become a car.

Study Hebrews 3-4



Ahhhh... but Jesus Became THE "TEMPLE"......
Did God become a building he commanded to be built? Of course not....

Jesus didn't LITERALLY turn into a "day"... That WOULD be illogical. However, We have to remember that The Temple, & the sabbath, & the original sacrificial system.. etc. were merely Types, which foreshadowed & pointed towards something far greater; and would be fulfilled through Jesus.

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 09:10 PM
Ahhhh... but Jesus Became THE "TEMPLE"......
Did God become a building he commanded to be built? Of course not....

Jesus didn't LITERALLY turn into a "day"... That WOULD be illogical. However, We have to remember that The Temple, & the sabbath, & the original sacrificial system.. etc. were merely Types, which foreshadowed & pointed towards something far greater; and would be fulfilled through Jesus.

The temple and the sacrificial system, yes - but not the commandment to keep the Sabbath day spearate unto God because it is an eternal sign between God and His people that He is the God who sanctifies them.

ananias

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 09:14 PM
The temple system and the sacrificial system is not part of the ten commandments - but the Sabbath is.

Keeping the Sabbath because we want to shows that we love God. Keeping Sabbath because we feel that we have to shows that we've misunderstood the purpose of Sabbath equally as much as those who've misunderstood what it means to be no longer under the Law.

ananias

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 09:43 PM
Ask yourself this:
Why did JESUS do "work" on a Sabbath day? Wouldn't that be "against the commandment"?

What work did he do?

Read John 9:1-16

;)

ananias
Sep 4th 2008, 10:01 PM
Ask yourself this:
Why did JESUS do "work" on a Sabbath day? Wouldn't that be "against the commandment"?

What work did he do?

Read John 9:1-16

;)

"And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath." (Mar.2: 27-28).

The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees had turned the Sabbath upside-down with their man-made law. Just like the Church has done after them.

ananias

keck553
Sep 5th 2008, 01:10 AM
Ask yourself this:
Why did JESUS do "work" on a Sabbath day? Wouldn't that be "against the commandment"?

What work did he do?

Read John 9:1-16

;)

Your holding Jesus to the standards of men's traditions, not Torah. Perhaps it would be profitable to learn what GOD SAID.

blessings.

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 06:53 AM
For many years the Spirit of Christ in me was teaching me that there is nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath-day holy, because it is a sign between God and His people forever that He is our God, the God who sanctifies us - and Jesus is the One who sanctifies us by His Spirit.

But the doctrine of man which is very legalistic about banning obedience to the commandments of God kept me sitting on the fence.

That's why I'm really grateful to many here at Bible Forums and other Internet Christian Forums - just recently a number of people finally pushed me off the fence by making me realize things I never realized before. The one thing I hope I've learnt for once and for all is that I should listen to the voice of the Lamb of God within me and not to the doctrines of the organised Church. Listening to the doctrines of the organised Church is a huge mistake.

I have such peace now it's uncanny - peace to keep Sabbath unto the Lord and to celebrate His Feasts and to worship Him the way He wants me to worship Him - and FREEDOM from man-made laws and man-made religion. Praise God.

ananias

Who is doing the banning?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 5th 2008, 10:58 AM
Who is doing the banning?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Firstfruits

The leaders/teachers of (many of the) church/es and their affiliated theological colleges/seminaries/Bible colleges who have misinterpreted the very N.T verse you have quoted above, along with many other N.T verses.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 11:34 AM
The leaders/teachers of (many of the) church/es and their affiliated theological colleges/seminaries/Bible colleges who have misinterpreted the very N.T verse you have quoted above, along with many other N.T verses.

ananias

So is what Paul taught therefore incorrect, and according to the teacings of men and not God?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Heb 7:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 5th 2008, 12:15 PM
So is what Paul taught therefore incorrect, and according to the teacings of men and not God?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Heb 7:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Firstfruits

No, Firstfruits - you know that we are not saved by our works - but you've only thrown this out in order to deliberately avoid the issue again
(you're like a politician, sometimes, Firstfruits!)

We are not saved by our works, but "... we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph.2: 10).

What is this "walking in good works" but the law being fulfilled in us by the Spirit of Christ who lives in us?

It is the Spirit of Christ in us who inspires us to show our love for God by keeping God's Sabbath-day holy unto God; and it is the Spirit in Christ in us who isnpires the love for neighbor which produce the good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."

Does this mean that we are saved by works? No. Of course not.

Why do you isolate a few verses of scripture as you did in your previous post and interpret them by themselves, instead of interpreting them in the light of all scripture?

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 01:50 PM
No, Firstfruits - you know that we are not saved by our works - but you've only thrown this out in order to deliberately avoid the issue again
(you're like a politician, sometimes, Firstfruits!)

We are not saved by our works, but "... we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph.2: 10).

What is this "walking in good works" but the law being fulfilled in us by the Spirit of Christ who lives in us?

It is the Spirit of Christ in us who inspires us to show our love for God by keeping God's Sabbath-day holy unto God; and it is the Spirit in Christ in us who isnpires the love for neighbor which produce the good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."

Does this mean that we are saved by works? No. Of course not.

Why do you isolate a few verses of scripture as you did in your previous post and interpret them by themselves, instead of interpreting them in the light of all scripture?

ananias

I have given them as they were written and have not interpeted them to make sure it could not be said that I had.

Tell me what I have added to or taken away from these scriptures?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 5th 2008, 07:12 PM
:B Here we go again.

Faith without works is dead.

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 08:03 PM
:B Here we go again.

Faith without works is dead.

That is correct, but which works are you speaking of?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 5th 2008, 08:16 PM
So is what Paul taught therefore incorrect, and according to the teacings of men and not God?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Heb 7:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Firstfruits

I have given them as they were written and have not interpeted them to make sure it could not be said that I had.

Tell me what I have added to or taken away from these scriptures?

Rom 3:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Firstfruits

I can't play this game with you anymore, Firsfruits. You take something that you know you and I agree on - such as the fact that we are not justified by works - but then, by the very fact that you quote these scriptures (which you know you and I and every other Christians agrees on), you imply that I and others seek to become justified by our obedience to God's commands - but you deliberately ignore it when we point out all the N.T scriptures to you which state plainly that God has saved us unto good works - and that God's grace doesn't mean that we can disobey His commands.

You circular arguments and false implications about me and others seeking to be justified through obedience to God's commandments aren't helpful to anyone, and I can't play such games with you anymore. So I'll refrain from making any more comments in this thread.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 08:30 PM
I can't play this game with you anymore, Firsfruits. You take something that you know you and I agree on - such as the fact that we are not justified by works - but then, by the very fact that you quote these scriptures (which you know you and I and every other Christians agrees on), you imply that I and others seek to become justified by our obedience to God's commands - but you deliberately ignore it when we point out all the N.T scriptures to you which state plainly that God has saved us unto good works - and that God's grace doesn't mean that we can disobey His commands.

You circular arguments and false implications about me and others seeking to be justified through obedience to God's commandments aren't helpful to anyone, and I can't play such games with you anymore. So I'll refrain from making any more comments in this thread.

ananias

Ananias,

You said: The leaders/teachers of (many of the) church/es and their affiliated theological colleges/seminaries/Bible colleges who have misinterpreted the very N.T verse you have quoted above, along with many other N.T verses.

I have asked: is what Paul taught therefore incorrect, and according to the teacings of men and not God?

If what Paul taught is not according to the teachings of men then what may I ask is the problem?

How do good works apply to the keeping of the Sabbath?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 5th 2008, 08:50 PM
Ananias,

You said: The leaders/teachers of (many of the) church/es and their affiliated theological colleges/seminaries/Bible colleges who have misinterpreted the very N.T verse you have quoted above, along with many other N.T verses.

I have asked: is what Paul taught therefore incorrect, and according to the teacings of men and not God?

If what Paul taught is not according to the teachings of men then what may I ask is the problem?

How do good works apply to the keeping of the Sabbath?

Firstfruits

O.K - so you don't want me to refrain from making any more posts in this thread.

The misinterpretation of these verses comes when they ADD to their meaning - the verses mean what they say - but many denominatrions ADD to the plain meaning of the verses by saying, in effect, something like this:

"Therefore any Christian who responds to the love of the Spirit of Christ within Him when the Spirit of Christ inspires Him to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy unto the Lord because we love Him who first loved us, is seeking to be justified by the Law; and any Christian who responds to the love of the Spirit of Christ within Him when the Spirit of Christ gives Him a love for the Feasts of the Lord and inspires him to celebrate them because he understands how each and every detail of each and every Feast teaches him about our Messiah, is likewise also seeking to be justified by the law."

That is the interpretation of these verses that those who say such things have ADDED to the meaning of those verses.

Bear in mind that THE CONTEXT of this whole thread is your OP.

ananias.

ananias
Sep 5th 2008, 09:26 PM
O.K - so you don't want me to refrain from making any more posts in this thread.

The misinterpretation of these verses comes when they ADD to their meaning - the verses mean what they say - but many denominatrions ADD to the plain meaning of the verses by saying, in effect, something like this:

"Therefore any Christian who responds to the love of the Spirit of Christ within Him when the Spirit of Christ inspires Him to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy unto the Lord because we love Him who first loved us, is seeking to be justified by the Law; and any Christian who responds to the love of the Spirit of Christ within Him when the Spirit of Christ gives Him a love for the Feasts of the Lord and inspires him to celebrate them because he understands how each and every detail of each and every Feast teaches him about our Messiah, is likewise also seeking to be justified by the law."

That is the interpretation of these verses that those who say such things have ADDED to the meaning of those verses.

Bear in mind that THE CONTEXT of this whole thread is your OP.

ananias.

The following is pertinent to the topic of this thread, and it comes out of the rules for posting on this board:

Quote:

A.W. Tozer said, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

end qoute

ananias

literaryjoe
Sep 5th 2008, 11:13 PM
How do good works apply to the keeping of the Sabbath?

Firstfruits
Keeping the Sabbath is one of a multitude of good works which we can walk in, having been created in Christ Jesus for just that purpose.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

Firstfruits
Sep 6th 2008, 11:08 AM
I can't play this game with you anymore, Firsfruits. You take something that you know you and I agree on - such as the fact that we are not justified by works - but then, by the very fact that you quote these scriptures (which you know you and I and every other Christians agrees on), you imply that I and others seek to become justified by our obedience to God's commands - but you deliberately ignore it when we point out all the N.T scriptures to you which state plainly that God has saved us unto good works - and that God's grace doesn't mean that we can disobey His commands.

You circular arguments and false implications about me and others seeking to be justified through obedience to God's commandments aren't helpful to anyone, and I can't play such games with you anymore. So I'll refrain from making any more comments in this thread.

ananias

So let me get this straight, wether or not we keep the Sabbath it has no bearing with how we stand with God, is that right?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 6th 2008, 11:11 AM
Keeping the Sabbath is one of a multitude of good works which we can walk in, having been created in Christ Jesus for just that purpose.

If you are resting on the Sabbath, what works are you doing?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 6th 2008, 01:29 PM
So let me get this straight, wether or not we keep the Sabbath it has no bearing with how we stand with God, is that right?

Firstfruits

Exactly.

1 It is Jesus' finished work on the cross which is the only work which has a bearing with how we stand with God.

2 But there is no law which says we MUST NOT and SHOULD NOT love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

3 NOT having any idols is one of the commandments which falls under the "love for God" category, and NOT stealing is one of the commandments which falls under the "love your neighbor" category.

2 But loving God and loving neighbor are positive ACTIONS - not only negative "do nots". Only one positive action among how many? which shows that we love God, is keeping His Sabbath Holy; and a positve action of loving one's neighbor is to give him who has no cloak one of our two cloaks.

3 But the moment anyone feels that he MUST keep the Sabbath holy unto God, he has gone back to the Law.

Most of those Christians who keep the Sabbath Holy unto the Lord do so because they love Him who first loved them, and it is a joy to be in the Lord and spend the day in Bible-reading, prayer, praise, fellowship - whatever they choose to be involved with for the day.

I've said this all before at these forums - albeit using slightly different words.

ananias.

Firstfruits
Sep 6th 2008, 03:13 PM
Exactly.

1 It is Jesus' finished work on the cross which is the only work which has a bearing with how we stand with God.

2 But there is no law which says we MUST NOT and SHOULD NOT love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

3 NOT having any idols is one of the commandments which falls under the "love for God" category, and NOT stealing is one of the commandments which falls under the "love your neighbor" category.

2 But loving God and loving neighbor are positive ACTIONS - not only negative "do nots". Only one positive action among how many? which shows that we love God, is keeping His Sabbath Holy; and a positive action of loving one's neighbor is to give him who has no cloak one of our two cloaks.

3 But the moment anyone feels that he MUST keep the Sabbath holy unto God, he has gone back to the Law.

Most of those Christians who keep the Sabbath Holy unto the Lord do so because they love Him who first loved them, and it is a joy to be in the Lord and spend the day in Bible-reading, prayer, praise, fellowship - whatever they choose to be involved with for the day.

I've said this all before at these forums - albeit using slightly different words.

ananias.

Thanks Ananias,

Your patience is appreciated.

I know the following says Circumcision but it however means the same as what you have said.

Rom 3:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Gal 5:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

It is all by faith.

I know that faith without works is dead, but that's for later.

God bless you

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 6th 2008, 03:53 PM
Thanks Ananias,

Your patience is appreciated.

I know the following says Circumcision but it however means the same as what you have said.

Rom 3:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Gal 5:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

It is all by faith.

I know that faith without works is dead, but that's for later.

God bless you

Firstfruits

Thanks, Firstfruits. I'm glad we're back on the same track (for the moment) - if you were a Democrat, I'd rather be a Democratic, and if you were a Republican, I'd rather be a Republican! Thank the Lord you're a Christian! Lols

ananias :)

ananias
Sep 6th 2008, 08:28 PM
By the way, Thank your Firstfruits, for your dlilgence with regard to doctrine. The firstfruits of the Lord were inspired by the Holy Spirit to have absolute diligence with regard to false doctrine creeping into the church - and you seem to have the same diligence, which is commendable.

We get on the dfensive and then on the offensive sometimes in threads like this one and others started by you, therefore I'm sure you also need encouragement, and so I've already prayed for your encouragement, and that God wil continue to give you wisdom and discernment, and that He will give you His peace that passes all understanding.

Your threads are tackling extremely sensitive and difiicult-to-understand issues, and you need nerves of steel and a lot of strength.

God bless,

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 7th 2008, 09:43 AM
By the way, Thank your Firstfruits, for your diligence with regard to doctrine. The firstfruits of the Lord were inspired by the Holy Spirit to have absolute diligence with regard to false doctrine creeping into the church - and you seem to have the same diligence, which is commendable.

We get on the defensive and then on the offensive sometimes in threads like this one and others started by you, therefore I'm sure you also need encouragement, and so I've already prayed for your encouragement, and that God wil continue to give you wisdom and discernment, and that He will give you His peace that passes all understanding.

Your threads are tackling extremely sensitive and difficult-to-understand issues, and you need nerves of steel and a lot of strength.

God bless,

Ananias

Thanks Ananias,

Your encouragement and prayers are truly appreciated,

God Bless you.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 8th 2008, 02:02 PM
Keeping the Sabbath is one of a multitude of good works which we can walk in, having been created in Christ Jesus for just that purpose. Eph. 2:8-10
If you are resting on the Sabbath, what works are you doing?

Firstfruits
Isn't that a beautiful paradox? And what a testament to the wonder of God's commandments! There is only one "work" that you are doing on the Sabbath, and that is the practice of ceasing from work.

There are, of course, exceptions: the Levites were to carry on the work of the Tabernacle/Temple, Jesus gave us the example of repairing on the Sabbath, etc.

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 02:19 PM
Isn't that a beautiful paradox? And what a testament to the wonder of God's commandments! There is only one "work" that you are doing on the Sabbath, and that is the practice of ceasing from work.

There are, of course, exceptions: the Levites were to carry on the work of the Tabernacle/Temple, Jesus gave us the example of repairing on the Sabbath, etc.

By whose commandment were the Levites to carry on the work of the tabernacle, and does that mean that other than that, as per Gods command, no work must be done?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 8th 2008, 07:27 PM
By whose commandment were the Levites to carry on the work of the tabernacle, and does that mean that other than that, as per Gods command, no work must be done?

FirstfruitsWhat's your thoughts on that?

BHS
Sep 8th 2008, 07:54 PM
If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

Sorry to step in late on this question as to whether, as you put it, God "honors what He has commanded concerning the Sabbath".

Some Christian’s preoccupation with enforcing the penalties of the “OT law” places too much importance upon them and fails to realize two things according to Christopher J. H. Wright, OT scholar who says that –

In many cases it is probable the penalty specified a maximum penalty that could be reduced at the discretion of the elders or judges. This is clearly the point with the whip as punishment (Deut. 25:1-3). Forty strokes was the maximum penalty. The law assumes that fewer than that, at the judges’ discretion would be normal. The fact that in a few specific cases the law prohibits any reduction of penalty (deliberate murder, idolatry and false testimony in court) suggests that lesser penalties were permissible in other cases.

What is important about the penal system of Israel’s “law” is the scale of values it reflects. The range of offenses for which the death penalty was applied were to do with the central concerns of protecting and preserving the covenant relationship and the family unit. The gradation of penalties also shows a clear priority of human life over property, of needs over rights, and other priorities that challenge the sometimes distorted values of our modern judicial systems. It is certainly possible to set the scale of moral values reflected in Israel’s penalties over against those of our own society and then to observe our shortcomings and suggest reforms in order to bring our own system of law and justice more in line with biblical priorities. But this does not need to seek to reimpose “OT” penalties as they stand. This point seems to be reinforced theologically by the fact that in the “NT” it appears that neither Jesus nor Paul wanted to apply the full weight of the “OT” penal system, for adultery or for false teaching.

If you are insisting that those who practice keeping the Sabbath, impose the death penalty, then you would also have to allow for "honor killings" as well.

Blessings,

BHS

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 08:14 PM
What's your thoughts on that?

Do you want me to answer my own question? What then would be the point in asking it in the first place?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 08:17 PM
Sorry to step in late on this question as to whether, as you put it, God "honors what He has commanded concerning the Sabbath".

Some Christian’s preoccupation with enforcing the penalties of the “OT law” places too much importance upon them and fails to realize two things according to Christopher J. H. Wright, OT scholar who says that –

In many cases it is probable the penalty specified a maximum penalty that could be reduced at the discretion of the elders or judges. This is clearly the point with the whip as punishment (Deut. 25:1-3). Forty strokes was the maximum penalty. The law assumes that fewer than that, at the judges’ discretion would be normal. The fact that in a few specific cases the law prohibits any reduction of penalty (deliberate murder, idolatry and false testimony in court) suggests that lesser penalties were permissible in other cases.

What is important about the penal system of Israel’s “law” is the scale of values it reflects. The range of offenses for which the death penalty was applied were to do with the central concerns of protecting and preserving the covenant relationship and the family unit. The gradation of penalties also shows a clear priority of human life over property, of needs over rights, and other priorities that challenge the sometimes distorted values of our modern judicial systems. It is certainly possible to set the scale of moral values reflected in Israel’s penalties over against those of our own society and then to observe our shortcomings and suggest reforms in order to bring our own system of law and justice more in line with biblical priorities. But this does not need to seek to reimpose “OT” penalties as they stand. This point seems to be reinforced theologically by the fact that in the “NT” it appears that neither Jesus nor Paul wanted to apply the full weight of the “OT” penal system, for adultery or for false teaching.

If you are insisting that those who practice keeping the Sabbath, impose the death penalty, then you would also have to allow for "honor killings" as well.

Blessings,

BHS

I am asking about what God has commanded, and as God has said cannot be added to or taken away from.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 8th 2008, 08:40 PM
I am asking about what God has commanded, and as God has said cannot be added to or taken away from.

Firstfruits


Fruits, That has been answered many times on the various boards.

Torah = God's commands.

Jewish or Christian laws on Torah not found in Torah = man's commands.

literaryjoe
Sep 8th 2008, 08:42 PM
Do you want me to answer my own question? What then would be the point in asking it in the first place?

FirstfruitsI'm not sure what the point was...therefore I'm giving you the opportunity to elaborate.

literaryjoe
Sep 8th 2008, 08:46 PM
Sorry to step in late on this question as to whether, as you put it, God "honors what He has commanded concerning the Sabbath".

Some Christian’s preoccupation with enforcing the penalties of the “OT law” places too much importance upon them and fails to realize two things according to Christopher J. H. Wright, OT scholar who says that –

In many cases it is probable the penalty specified a maximum penalty that could be reduced at the discretion of the elders or judges. This is clearly the point with the whip as punishment (Deut. 25:1-3). Forty strokes was the maximum penalty. The law assumes that fewer than that, at the judges’ discretion would be normal. The fact that in a few specific cases the law prohibits any reduction of penalty (deliberate murder, idolatry and false testimony in court) suggests that lesser penalties were permissible in other cases.

What is important about the penal system of Israel’s “law” is the scale of values it reflects. The range of offenses for which the death penalty was applied were to do with the central concerns of protecting and preserving the covenant relationship and the family unit. The gradation of penalties also shows a clear priority of human life over property, of needs over rights, and other priorities that challenge the sometimes distorted values of our modern judicial systems. It is certainly possible to set the scale of moral values reflected in Israel’s penalties over against those of our own society and then to observe our shortcomings and suggest reforms in order to bring our own system of law and justice more in line with biblical priorities. But this does not need to seek to reimpose “OT” penalties as they stand. This point seems to be reinforced theologically by the fact that in the “NT” it appears that neither Jesus nor Paul wanted to apply the full weight of the “OT” penal system, for adultery or for false teaching.

If you are insisting that those who practice keeping the Sabbath, impose the death penalty, then you would also have to allow for "honor killings" as well.

Blessings,

BHS
Great quote, BHS. I have really appreciated a lot of Wright's comments. I believe you asked me about his book The Mission of God sometime ago...and at that point I wasn't familiar with him. Yet another Anglican with great biblical insight! ;)

In fact, someone asked NT scholar Scot McKnight recently where he thought the future of biblical theology was going. He answered that he did'nt know, but that he thought Wright & Wright (Christopher Wright and Bishop N.T. Wright) would heavily influence its direction.

BHS
Sep 8th 2008, 09:11 PM
Great quote, BHS. I have really appreciated a lot of Wright's comments. I believe you asked me about his book The Mission of God sometime ago...and at that point I wasn't familiar with him. Yet another Anglican with great biblical insight! ;)

In fact, someone asked NT scholar Scot McKnight recently where he thought the future of biblical theology was going. He answered that he did'nt know, but that he thought Wright & Wright (Christopher Wright and Bishop N.T. Wright) would heavily influence its direction.

I have since purchased The Mission of God, but haven't gotten too far into it. You might be interested in another -- "Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament" written by NT scholars. I wonder how different it might be if it were done by OT scholars ;)

literaryjoe
Sep 8th 2008, 09:13 PM
I have since purchased The Mission of God, but haven't gotten too far into it. You might be interested in another -- "Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament" written by NT scholars. I wonder how different it might be if it were done by OT scholars ;)
I've got that one; it can be interesting at times, and completely miss the point at others.

Firstfruits
Sep 9th 2008, 06:49 AM
I'm not sure what the point was...therefore I'm giving you the opportunity to elaborate.

I asked the question because of what you said; There are, of course, exceptions: the Levites were to carry on the work of the Tabernacle/Temple, Jesus gave us the example of repairing on the Sabbath, etc.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 10th 2008, 03:05 AM
By whose commandment were the Levites to carry on the work of the tabernacleGod's.
Every Sabbath day Aaron shall arrange it before the LORD regularly; it is from the people of Israel as a covenant forever.
(Leviticus 24:8 ESV)
"On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering: this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
(Numbers 28:9-10 ESV)
, and does that mean that other than that, as per Gods command, no work must be done?The command is
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
(Exodus 20:8-11 ESV) and
"You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
(Exodus 31:13-17 ESV) and
Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day."
(Exodus 35:2-3 ESV) and
"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.
(Leviticus 23:3 ESV) and
"'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
(Deuteronomy 5:12-15 ESV)So yes, besides things we are positively commanded to do, i.e. love your neighbor, or things that repair or heal life (a nurse, a doctor, etc.) I would say that we ought to consider the Sabbath a day to refrain from work. In other words a general prohibition is always superseded by a specific injunction, but this does not weaken the power of the prohibition.

Jesus modeled for us how to carry this out. The Sabbath, he told us, is made for us (i.e., it is for our benefit), not man for the Sabbath. In other words, as with all his instructions, we will experience temporal benefit by observing them; after all we are simply cooperating with the design of the Designer. However, we must always weigh our responsibilities in the larger picture. If your ox is stuck in a ditch--it only makes sense--it's certainly not resting...and according to the command, your livestock is to rest on the Sabbath as well. So, obviously, get it out of the ditch!

Mograce2U
Sep 10th 2008, 03:12 AM
All that commentary about what the Sabbath law really means seems to be refuted by this passage:

(Num 15:32-36 KJV) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. {33} And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. {34} And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. {36} And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 06:59 AM
God's. The command is and and and and So yes, besides things we are positively commanded to do, i.e. love your neighbor, or things that repair or heal life (a nurse, a doctor, etc.) I would say that we ought to consider the Sabbath a day to refrain from work. In other words a general prohibition is always superseded by a specific injunction, but this does not weaken the power of the prohibition.

Jesus modeled for us how to carry this out. The Sabbath, he told us, is made for us (i.e., it is for our benefit), not man for the Sabbath. In other words, as with all his instructions, we will experience temporal benefit by observing them; after all we are simply cooperating with the design of the Designer. However, we must always weigh our responsibilities in the larger picture. If your ox is stuck in a ditch--it only makes sense--it's certainly not resting...and according to the command, your livestock is to rest on the Sabbath as well. So, obviously, get it out of the ditch!

With all those scriptures it seems as though you have missed this one;

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 10th 2008, 11:55 AM
All that commentary about what the Sabbath law really means seems to be refuted by this passage:

(Num 15:32-36 KJV) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. {33} And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. {34} And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. {36} And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Really? In what way?

literaryjoe
Sep 10th 2008, 11:58 AM
With all those scriptures it seems as though you have missed this one;

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits
Nope. They're listed too...just look at my post again.

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 12:28 PM
Nope. They're listed too...just look at my post again.

Yep, it sure is, thanks.

Has God changed his command regarding those that break the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

There are, as you can see, two sides to Gods law, yet it is clear that trangeression of the law and what God has commanded must happen to the transgressor is rarely mentioned as in the example given by Mograce2U; (Num 15:32-36 KJV) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. {33} And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. {34} And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. {36} And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Has God changed his law?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 10th 2008, 12:34 PM
Yep, it sure is, thanks.

Has God changed his command regarding those that break the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

There are, as you can see, two sides to Gods law, yet it is clear that trangeression of the law and what God has commanded must happen to the transgressor is rarely mentioned as in the example given by Mograce2U; (Num 15:32-36 KJV) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. {33} And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. {34} And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. {36} And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Has God changed his law?

Firstfruits


It is a tragedy that you seek the negatives in the Word of YHWH. Cursing the forest for all the trees.

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 12:48 PM
Firstfruits, can I ask you two simple questions?

1. Do you believe God doesn't change?

2. Do you think Jesus replaced God?

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 12:58 PM
It is a tragedy that you seek the negatives in the Word of YHWH. Cursing the forest for all the trees.

Wether or not they are negative they are still Gods commands.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Unless God has changed them, then wether or not we agree with what God has commanded God said; Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So has God changed it?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 01:03 PM
Firstfruits, can I ask you two simple questions?

1. Do you believe God doesn't change?

2. Do you think Jesus replaced God?

God does not change,and only God can change what he has commanded.

Jesus came to do what God gave him to do, that has been fulfilled henceforth we have The New testament which as God said is not the same as the one before.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 01:04 PM
First fruits.

These commands are not observable. Do you have the slightest notion of 'heavier commands', or 'weightier commands'? Jesus taught about them. Read the Gospels and see what He said. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Emanate
Sep 10th 2008, 01:11 PM
Wether or not they are negative they are still Gods commands.

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Unless God has changed them, then wether or not we agree with what God has commanded God said; Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So has God changed it?

Firstfruits






Well, we can all imagine how it may or is supposed to be in a nation governed by Torah. That nation does not exist this day.

What I find interesting about that scripture is that man is so rebellious that he will not even take a day off for rest if he is so told. YHWH has to threaten punishment before a man will enter into His rest, even then will man rebel.

Change? All we know for sure is a change in the priesthood. Perhaps there has also been something to blot out the handwriting of ordinances against us? Sounds like something maybe to check out.

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 01:22 PM
Paul's doctrine was: Wisdom=Torah= Messiah. The correct frame of referece will line Paul's writings up to what Jesus said. No conflict.

Paul says the curses of Torah transgression are nailed to the cross, not Torah.

Go find the verse First fruits. Pehaps it will be enlightening!

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 01:26 PM
First fruits.

These commands are not observable. Do you have the slightest notion of 'heavier commands', or 'weightier commands'? Jesus taught about them. Read the Gospels and see what He said. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

According to whose say so are they not observable, is it God or man?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 01:30 PM
Paul's doctrine was: Wisdom=Torah= Messiah. The correct frame of referece will line Paul's writings up to what Jesus said. No conflict.

Paul says the curses of Torah transgression are nailed to the cross, not Torah.

Go find the verse First fruits. Pehaps it will be enlightening!

That would mean that the New covenant supercedes the Mosaic covenant is that what is being implied?

Eph 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What are we to observe?

1 Cor 11:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Jesus above Moses?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 01:30 PM
According to God.

Unless you think that Mosque in Jerusalem is really a temple?

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 01:33 PM
That would mean that the New covenant supercedes the Mosaic covenant is that what is being implied?

Jesus above Moses?

Firstfruits

No. If you read the bible, you'll see a 'greater than' pattern, not a 'replace' pattern.

A greater sacrifice
A greater covenant

etc.

As a child. hopefully your parents COMMANDED you to look both ways before crossing the street.

When you grow up, does it mean you no longer have to look to the left or to the right when crossing the street?

So, then if the 'new covenant' replaces the 'old covenant', can a man marry his sister?

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 01:42 PM
According to God.

Unless you think that Mosque in Jerusalem is really a temple?

According to which scriptures?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 01:49 PM
No. If you read the bible, you'll see a 'greater than' pattern, not a 'replace' pattern.

A greater sacrifice
A greater covenant

etc.

As a child. hopefully your parents COMMANDED you to look both ways before crossing the street.

When you grow up, does it mean you no longer have to look to the left or to the right when crossing the street?

So, then if the 'new covenant' replaces the 'old covenant', can a man marry his sister?

What has God done regarding the following?

Heb 8:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Sep 10th 2008, 05:33 PM
According to God.

Unless you think that Mosque in Jerusalem is really a temple?It stands as a fitting monument in a city whose people have exchanged the glory of God for a lie. Whose leaders have taken it upon themselves to question the word of God and teach Talmud rather than Torah to the people. Who say that Torah = Israel, and that she is the redeemer of the nations, who suffers for their sins and mediates for them. Rabbis who see themselves as the earthly representatives of the heavenly council.

(2 Th 2:4 KJV) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

They may imagine a different temple sitting upon the mount some day, but that it may look different will not change what the one we see now truly represents in their midst.

If we are dead to sin then we are not under law, because the law works wrath. We are under grace by faith - as was Abraham - because the Lord gives life to those He has forgiven and justified. We walk in the newness of this life and not in the old order of the law which was for judgment and wrath against sin. Abraham by faith was justified by God before the 10 commandments were given to Moses. And we see that is the same for us who believe in Christ for life. If your sins have been forgiven, there is no law which applies to you - other than to walk in the love and mercy you have received.

Israel is however still under the law and will be judged for what she has done to it because of her unbelief and disobedience.

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 06:56 PM
According to God.

Unless you think that Mosque in Jerusalem is really a temple?

May I ask when God said that his commandment concerning the Sabbath was not observable?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Unless God has changed them, then wether or not we agree with what God has commanded God said; Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 06:59 PM
It stands as a fitting monument in a city whose people have exchanged the glory of God for a lie. Whose leaders have taken it upon themselves to question the word of God and teach Talmud rather than Torah to the people. Who say that Torah = Israel, and that she is the redeemer of the nations, who suffers for their sins and mediates for them. Rabbis who see themselves as the earthly representatives of the heavenly council.

(2 Th 2:4 KJV) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

They may imagine a different temple sitting upon the mount some day, but that it may look different will not change what the one we see now truly represents in their midst.

If we are dead to sin then we are not under law, because the law works wrath. We are under grace by faith - as was Abraham - because the Lord gives life to those He has forgiven and justified. We walk in the newness of this life and not in the old order of the law which was for judgment and wrath against sin. Abraham by faith was justified by God before the 10 commandments were given to Moses. And we see that is the same for us who believe in Christ for life. If your sins have been forgiven, there is no law which applies to you - other than to walk in the love and mercy you have received.

Israel is however still under the law and will be judged for what she has done to it because of her unbelief and disobedience.

Sorry, can't rep you, but well said.

2 Cor 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Cor 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 09:11 PM
May I ask when God said that his commandment concerning the Sabbath was not observable?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Unless God has changed them, then wether or not we agree with what God has commanded God said; Deut 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Firstfruits

We are not under the authority of biblical Israel.Yeshua has all authority, and He provides forgiveness for 'breaking the law'. That doesn't mean I want to 'break the law'. My desire is to allow Him to lead me in His truth. In that I obey. Not from fear of condemnation, but from love of my King, who provides for me. Why is this concept so difficult to understand?

Firstfruits
Sep 11th 2008, 06:57 AM
We are not under the authority of biblical Israel.Yeshua has all authority, and He provides forgiveness for 'breaking the law'. That doesn't mean I want to 'break the law'. My desire is to allow Him to lead me in His truth. In that I obey. Not from fear of condemnation, but from love of my King, who provides for me. Why is this concept so difficult to understand?

If you are therefore not under law to to something how can you be obedient to it?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 18th 2008, 06:54 AM
Yep, it sure is, thanks.

Has God changed his command regarding those that break the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

There are, as you can see, two sides to Gods law, yet it is clear that trangeression of the law and what God has commanded must happen to the transgressor is rarely mentioned as in the example given by Mograce2U; (Num 15:32-36 KJV) And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. {33} And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. {34} And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. {36} And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Has God changed his law?

Firstfruits
Ah! Now I see what you're getting at. (sorry it's been so long; I've been traveling) I believe the point you're trying to make is that if I say God still wants us to keep the Sabbath, then logically I also need to say that we need to kill Sabbath-breakers? Is that right?

Let's presume for a moment, that this is what you're saying so that I can reply to that idea. :D

The wages of sin - any sin - is death. But, fortunately for us, who are all law-breakers of staggering proportion, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." None of us would say that because we will not face the penalty for lying that it is now okay to lie, so I believe it is clear that the logic suggested above does not follow.

Furthermore, even if the curse/condemnation/penalties of the Law still applied to us who are in Messiah, it would be impossible to legally enforce them without a Torah-observant, Theocratic civil system in place -- so the point is moot whichever way one tries to slice it.

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 07:04 AM
Ah! Now I see what you're getting at. (sorry it's been so long; I've been traveling) I believe the point you're trying to make is that if I say God still wants us to keep the Sabbath, then logically I also need to say that we need to kill Sabbath-breakers? Is that right?

Let's presume for a moment, that this is what you're saying so that I can reply to that idea. :D

The wages of sin - any sin - is death. But, fortunately for us, who are all law-breakers of staggering proportion, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." None of us would say that because we will not face the penalty for lying that it is now okay to lie, so I believe it is clear that the logic suggested above does not follow.

Furthermore, even if the curse/condemnation/penalties of the Law still applied to us who are in Messiah, it would be impossible to legally enforce them without a Torah-observant, Theocratic civil system in place -- so the point is moot whichever way one tries to slice it.

From what you have said, do you therefore agree that Gods law has changed?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 18th 2008, 07:10 AM
From what you have said, do you therefore agree that Gods law has changed?

FirstfruitsNo. The Law is the expression of God's character, therefore it cannot change, just as God cannot change. This has been established as orthodoxy time and time again. William of Ockham tried to suggest that God could have posited the opposite of the 10 Commandments and then lying would have been virtuous, but the Church censured this idea and declared it heresy.

Christ's sacrifice satisfied the penalty demanded by the Law, but did not change the Law.

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 08:02 AM
No. The Law is the expression of God's character, therefore it cannot change, just as God cannot change. This has been established as orthodoxy time and time again. William of Ockham tried to suggest that God could have posited the opposite of the 10 Commandments and then lying would have been virtuous, but the Church censured this idea and declared it heresy.

Christ's sacrifice satisfied the penalty demanded by the Law, but did not change the Law.

What you said here regarding the following;

The wages of sin - any sin - is death. But, fortunately for us, who are all law-breakers of staggering proportion, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." None of us would say that because we will not face the penalty for lying that it is now okay to lie, so I believe it is clear that the logic suggested above does not follow.

Furthermore, even if the curse/condemnation/penalties of the Law still applied to us who are in Messiah, it would be impossible to legally enforce them without a Torah-observant, Theocratic civil system in place -- so the point is moot whichever way one tries to slice it.

Is what is written in the Torah not what was taken from the the bible?

Therefore if what is written in the bible is not then written in the Torah does the Torah take precedence over the bible, and if so by who's authorisation?

Firstfruits

pastor_john
Sep 18th 2008, 02:07 PM
Concerning will GOD honor his commandment?


I do not feel this is a good question. Why? The commandments and the law are both the name of YAHVEH (Deut28:58, Mal2:1-3). And the law, the commandments are the LORD GOD (Mt22:35-40), for they are the words spoken in the Holy Spirit (Ne9:13-14).
Samuel wrote down the regulations of the kingship on a scroll, and placed it before the LORD (1Sam10:25). The LORD commanded Isaiah to inscribe His words on a tablet and on a scroll, so that it may be for the time to come forever (Isa30:8). Job was saying, O that my words were written down, that they were inscribed on a scroll, that they were engraved on a rock forever (Job19:23-24)!
In a word, the words of the book were the LORD GOD (2Ch34:21, 2Ki22:13). It's also why those who cast the words of the LORD behind are evil doers (Ps50:16-17).
Be blessed by His word!

keck553
Sep 18th 2008, 02:08 PM
If you are therefore not under law to to something how can you be obedient to it?

Firstfruits

I obey the Living Torah. Jesus.

joztok
Sep 18th 2008, 02:20 PM
Jews had the Sabbath.
Christians have the Lord's Table.

Sabbath keeping was a sign for Jews to find rest. It was given in light of bread falling from heaven and feeding the Jews in the wilderness.
Christ Himself said that He is the bread of life/bread of heaven.

In fact it was Christ that merged the two to speak of himself. He told his disciples to eat the bread, ("this is my body"), so that they may remember Him and His work.

Because Jesus was the one wrote the Law, He was also the one that put it aside so that the Jew may finally find rest in their God. The Sabbath was a foreshadowing of Christ being our rest the same way the Lord's Table is a reminder that we can rest in Christ through the finish work of the cross.

He is our provider, our nourisher, Lord and Saviour.

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 02:56 PM
Concerning will GOD honor his commandment?


I do not feel this is a good question. Why? The commandments and the law are both the name of YAHVEH (Deut28:58, Mal2:1-3). And the law, the commandments are the LORD GOD (Mt22:35-40), for they are the words spoken in the Holy Spirit (Ne9:13-14).
Samuel wrote down the regulations of the kingship on a scroll, and placed it before the LORD (1Sam10:25). The LORD commanded Isaiah to inscribe His words on a tablet and on a scroll, so that it may be for the time to come forever (Isa30:8). Job was saying, O that my words were written down, that they were inscribed on a scroll, that they were engraved on a rock forever (Job19:23-24)!
In a word, the words of the book were the LORD GOD (2Ch34:21, 2Ki22:13). It's also why those who cast the words of the LORD behind are evil doers (Ps50:16-17).
Be blessed by His word!

This is the OP


If we do not keep the Sabbath, if we break the Sabbath, if we disregard the Sabbath, will God honor what he has commanded concerning the Sabbath?

Ex 31:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex 31:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex 31:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Ex 35:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=2&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 18th 2008, 05:56 PM
Jews had the Sabbath.
Christians have the Lord's Table.

Sabbath keeping was a sign for Jews to find rest. It was given in light of bread falling from heaven and feeding the Jews in the wilderness.
Christ Himself said that He is the bread of life/bread of heaven.

In fact it was Christ that merged the two to speak of himself. He told his disciples to eat the bread, ("this is my body"), so that they may remember Him and His work.

Because Jesus was the one wrote the Law, He was also the one that put it aside so that the Jew may finally find rest in their God. The Sabbath was a foreshadowing of Christ being our rest the same way the Lord's Table is a reminder that we can rest in Christ through the finish work of the cross.

He is our provider, our nourisher, Lord and Saviour.

That's your opinion. Show me what God said.

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 06:54 PM
On one hand we are saying that we are not under the law, so if we are no longer obliged to worship God or to rest on any particular day, why does it appear to be otherwise?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 18th 2008, 07:26 PM
On one hand we are saying that we are not under the law, so if we are no longer obliged to worship God or to rest on any particular day, why does it appear to be otherwise?

Firstfruits

For the same reason the fruit appeared good to Eve.

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 07:36 PM
For the same reason the fruit appeared good to Eve.

Thanks Keck,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 18th 2008, 09:12 PM
What you said here regarding the following;

The wages of sin - any sin - is death. But, fortunately for us, who are all law-breakers of staggering proportion, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." None of us would say that because we will not face the penalty for lying that it is now okay to lie, so I believe it is clear that the logic suggested above does not follow.

Furthermore, even if the curse/condemnation/penalties of the Law still applied to us who are in Messiah, it would be impossible to legally enforce them without a Torah-observant, Theocratic civil system in place -- so the point is moot whichever way one tries to slice it.

Is what is written in the Torah not what was taken from the the bible?

Therefore if what is written in the bible is not then written in the Torah does the Torah take precedence over the bible, and if so by who's authorisation?

Firstfruits
I have no clue what you're trying to ask me.

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 07:58 AM
I have no clue what you're trying to ask me.

That which is written in the Torah is taken from what is written in the bible but from reading the Torah what is written is not alawys according to what is written in the bible, which therefore should take prescedence?

Thank you for your patience with me here, I trust that being in Christ we will seek to please God and not ourselves.

God bless you

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 19th 2008, 01:23 PM
That which is written in the Torah is taken from what is written in the bible but from reading the Torah what is written is not alawys according to what is written in the bible, which therefore should take prescedence?

Thank you for your patience with me here, I trust that being in Christ we will seek to please God and not ourselves.

God bless you

Firstfruits
FF, I'm still trying to understand, but this seems puzzling to me.

What is written in the Torah is written in the Bible, as the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. So I'm not sure how one could say that "what is written [in the Torah] is not always according to what is written in the bible."

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 01:27 PM
FF, I'm still trying to understand, but this seems puzzling to me.

What is written in the Torah is written in the Bible, as the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. So I'm not sure how one could say that "what is written [in the Torah] is not always according to what is written in the bible."

I will provide the information regarding what I have said if that is ok with you.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 19th 2008, 01:31 PM
I will provide the information regarding what I have said if that is ok with you.

Firstfruitsyes, I think that would help me tremendously.

Mograce2U
Sep 19th 2008, 01:45 PM
That which is written in the Torah is taken from what is written in the bible but from reading the Torah what is written is not alawys according to what is written in the bible, which therefore should take prescedence?

Thank you for your patience with me here, I trust that being in Christ we will seek to please God and not ourselves.

God bless you

FirstfruitsAre you perhaps thinking of the Talmud here rather than the Torah?

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 01:57 PM
Are you perhaps thinking of the Talmud here rather than the Torah?

I am talking about the 613 commandents in the Torah.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 02:10 PM
yes, I think that would help me tremendously.

What I will do is Give you what is written in the Torah and let you check the scripture that is provided with it.

26. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Levitcus 19:18)

27. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger ( Lev.19:16)

28. Not to wrong any one in speach (Lev.25:17)

285. That the court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Lev.26:25)

286. That the court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev.20:14)

That just a few for you to check, let me know what you find.

One thing you will note is that they are open to interpretation which is why it is said you need the oral law to explain what is written.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 19th 2008, 03:11 PM
What I will do is Give you what is written in the Torah and let you check the scripture that is provided with it.

26. To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Levitcus 19:18)

27. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger ( Lev.19:16)

28. Not to wrong any one in speach (Lev.25:17)

285. That the court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Lev.26:25)

286. That the court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev.20:14)

That just a few for you to check, let me know what you find.

One thing you will note is that they are open to interpretation which is why it is said you need the oral law to explain what is written.

Firstfruits
Ahh! I see where the confusion is. The 613 Commandments are man's attempt at distilling the various instructions from the Torah. In fact, there are two popular versions of the 613 that are not the same, one by Nachmanides and one by Maimonides.

The rabbis looked at the Torah and thought since there are some commands repeated more than once, some repeated with variations, let's try to identify the commands of Scripture so that we can more carefully follow them. The conclusions they came to, however, are a matter of human interpretation and have no more bearing on Scripture than do the various Christian commentaries with which we are all familiar. They are potentially valuable as an aid to understanding, but they are not authoritative.

So we ought not to say that Torah conflicts with Scripture, since Torah is Scripture. We could say, however, that man's interpretation of Scripture (whether by Jews or Christians) has the potential to conflict with Scripture. A good example is Lev 19:18 -- here the rabbis decided that "neighbor" referred to other covenant members. Jesus pointed out, however, that we ought to define "neighbor" in a much broader fashion.

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2008, 04:56 PM
Ahh! I see where the confusion is. The 613 Commandments are man's attempt at distilling the various instructions from the Torah. In fact, there are two popular versions of the 613 that are not the same, one by Nachmanides and one by Maimonides.

The rabbis looked at the Torah and thought since there are some commands repeated more than once, some repeated with variations, let's try to identify the commands of Scripture so that we can more carefully follow them. The conclusions they came to, however, are a matter of human interpretation and have no more bearing on Scripture than do the various Christian commentaries with which we are all familiar. They are potentially valuable as an aid to understanding, but they are not authoritative.

So we ought not to say that Torah conflicts with Scripture, since Torah is Scripture. We could say, however, that man's interpretation of Scripture (whether by Jews or Christians) has the potential to conflict with Scripture. A good example is Lev 19:18 -- here the rabbis decided that "neighbor" referred to other covenant members. Jesus pointed out, however, that we ought to define "neighbor" in a much broader fashion.

Thank you Literaryjoe,

I did mention that it was open to interpetation, so depending on the situation what is written in the Torah could be applied even if it was not according to scripture. as I also mentioned it is said that in order to understand what is written in the Torah the Oral law must be used, which again is open to interpretaion.

Gods law is not open to personal interpretaion as is the Torah.

Thanks for all your imput,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 19th 2008, 08:31 PM
Gods law is not open to personal interpretation as is the Torah.

FirstfruitsThe statement above, as it is written, is inaccurate. God's law and the Torah are the same thing. Or at least God's law is expressed within the Torah, since the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, clearly there's also a lot of narrative included in the Torah.

What the Jews call "Oral Torah" is not authoritative nor inspired. If that is what you are saying, then I would agree. The written Torah contained in the first 5 books of the Bible, also called the Pentateuch, is inspired Scripture and "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 01:09 PM
The statement above, as it is written, is inaccurate. God's law and the Torah are the same thing. Or at least God's law is expressed within the Torah, since the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, clearly there's also a lot of narrative included in the Torah.

What the Jews call "Oral Torah" is not authoritative nor inspired. If that is what you are saying, then I would agree. The written Torah contained in the first 5 books of the Bible, also called the Pentateuch, is inspired Scripture and "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Thanks Literaryjoe,

Do you mean that we interpet Gods word, or narrate it according to our own understanding?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 20th 2008, 02:33 PM
Thanks Literaryjoe,

Do you mean that we interpet Gods word, or narrate it according to our own understanding?

Firstfruits
I'm not sure what "narrate it according to our own understanding" means. We are required to interpret God's word, however.

For example, Jesus said:
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
(Matthew 6:22-23 ESV)What on earth does that mean? We must interpret it to gain understanding. I have often heard that passage preached along with topics like making a covenant with our eyes and not lusting. It's a great sermon, but it doesn't have anything to do with this passage. A healthy or a good eye was a Hebrew idiom for being a generous person, whereas a dark or evil eye was an idiom for being stingy and miserly. We can see this corroborated by passages from the First Testament like Proverbs 22:9,
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor. (ESV) The NASB doesn't translate literally here, but translates the idiom for us:
He who is generous will be blessed, For he gives some of his food to the poor. (Proverbs 22:9 NASB)And, indeed, if we check the context of Matthew 6:22-23 we find that the verses preceding and the verses following discuss the topic of money:
"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
(Matthew 6:19-24 ESV)So now we understand what Jesus was saying, but we must still interpret and/or apply that to our life. What does it mean to be a generous person in your circumstances? This is a principle we must apply, but God leaves it to us to figure out how to do so, and of course, He gave us the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and to guide us into all truth (John 16:7-13).

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 03:02 PM
I'm not sure what "narrate it according to our own understanding" means. We are required to interpret God's word, however.

For example, Jesus said:What on earth does that mean? We must interpret it to gain understanding. I have often heard that passage preached along with topics like making a covenant with our eyes and not lusting. It's a great sermon, but it doesn't have anything to do with this passage. A healthy or a good eye was a Hebrew idiom for being a generous person, whereas a dark or evil eye was an idiom for being stingy and miserly. We can see this corroborated by passages from the First Testament like Proverbs 22:9, The NASB doesn't translate literally here, but translates the idiom for us: And, indeed, if we check the context of Matthew 6:22-23 we find that the verses preceding and the verses following discuss the topic of money:So now we understand what Jesus was saying, but we must still interpret and/or apply that to our life. What does it mean to be a generous person in your circumstances? This is a principle we must apply, but God leaves it to us to figure out how to do so, and of course, He gave us the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and to guide us into all truth (John 16:7-13).

Isn't comparing scripture with scripture different to our own interptation, as the meaning is still the word of God?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 20th 2008, 03:50 PM
Isn't comparing scripture with scripture different to our own interptation, as the meaning is still the word of God?

FirstfruitsI can see what you're saying, and that makes sense. You and I are probably giving "interpretation" a slightly different connotation.

I'm saying that we must interpret anything we read in order to accurately discover its meaning. You're focusing on the idea that any given Scripture has one meaning and it's whatever God meant. And I would agree with you! However, discovering what it was that God meant is a process of interpretation that is appropriate and necessary.

I practice a grammatico-historical hermeneutic, which I would imagine you would probably appreciate. Basically, this means a couple things: I emphasize the primacy of authorial intent for the determination of meaning. In other words, what the author meant, is what the words mean. It also means that I believe in the need to take into account the original languages and the historical context of Scripture in order to discover its meaning.

Careful now, we've stumbled into one of my favorite topics! ;)

Mograce2U
Sep 20th 2008, 04:07 PM
LiteraryJoe,

I'm not sure what "narrate it according to our own understanding" means. We are required to interpret God's word, however.

So now we understand what Jesus was saying, but we must still interpret and/or apply that to our life. What does it mean to be a generous person in your circumstances? This is a principle we must apply, but God leaves it to us to figure out how to do so, and of course, He gave us the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and to guide us into all truth (John 16:7-13). Another interesting point that Jesus made in the passage in Mat 6:22 which concerns light and darkness (understanding), is that unless one's eye is not clouded by his covetousness, he will not have understanding of truth. Coveting and idolatry (wrong view of God?) seem to go hand in hand in scripture, with the love of money being the idol of one's heart which causes him to judge amiss.

The word of faith teachers comes to mind...

literaryjoe
Sep 20th 2008, 05:45 PM
LiteraryJoe,

Another interesting point that Jesus made in the passage in Mat 22 which concerns light and darkness (understanding), is that unless one's eye is not clouded by his covetousness, he will not have understanding of truth. Coveting and idolatry (wrong view of God?) seem to go hand in hand in scripture, with the love of money being the idol of one's heart which causes him to judge amiss.

The word of faith teachers comes to mind...I think you meant Matt 6:22, at least if you meant Matt 22 I'm not sure which section you're referring to, although it is a wonderful collection of Jesus' teachings.

Anyway, the content of what you said, I completely agree with. Certainly covetousness is a form of idolatry; we are seeking after things in an attempt to replace the God-shaped void with them rather than with God--which of course is a form of rebellion...

It's nice to agree with you ;)

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2008, 05:50 PM
I can see what you're saying, and that makes sense. You and I are probably giving "interpretation" a slightly different connotation.

I'm saying that we must interpret anything we read in order to accurately discover its meaning. You're focusing on the idea that any given Scripture has one meaning and it's whatever God meant. And I would agree with you! However, discovering what it was that God meant is a process of interpretation that is appropriate and necessary.

I practice a grammatico-historical hermeneutic, which I would imagine you would probably appreciate. Basically, this means a couple things: I emphasize the primacy of authorial intent for the determination of meaning. In other words, what the author meant, is what the words mean. It also means that I believe in the need to take into account the original languages and the historical context of Scripture in order to discover its meaning.

Careful now, we've stumbled into one of my favorite topics! ;)

As we are aware, the law and the prophets contains teachings and prophecies concerning Jesus. Jesus taught the disciples from the law and the prophets; Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The disciples were witnesses of those things that Jesus fulfilled. Those things they witnessed are what Jesus came to fulfil, so there was no doubt as to what they were to preach.

If we therefore are also concerned with Jesus, or that Jesus is all in all, should we continue as they were taught, since it is already fulfilled?

Christs commandments to love one another is the message we have had from the beginning and if that fulfils the law of Christ and teach the same I do not think we should be far from the truth. What do you think?

Firstfruits

literaryjoe
Sep 28th 2008, 06:44 PM
As we are aware, the law and the prophets contains teachings and prophecies concerning Jesus. Jesus taught the disciples from the law and the prophets; Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The disciples were witnesses of those things that Jesus fulfilled. Those things they witnessed are what Jesus came to fulfil, so there was no doubt as to what they were to preach.

If we therefore are also concerned with Jesus, or that Jesus is all in all, should we continue as they were taught, since it is already fulfilled?

Christs commandments to love one another is the message we have had from the beginning and if that fulfils the law of Christ and teach the same I do not think we should be far from the truth. What do you think?

FirstfruitsWell, not all of what is written about Jesus in the Law and the Prophets has yet been fulfilled, we are still awaiting His return, His conquering of the enemies of God, and His re-making of the world so that we can enjoy our eternal Rest - the New Heaven and New Earth.

So in the meantime, I believe we should follow the example of Jesus and his Apostles...and try to live so much as we can as did they. Certainly Christ commanded us to love one another, as did St. John, and as John said, that is not a new commandment, but an old commandment that you have heard from the beginning, and yet it is a new commandment (how's that for confusing?!). Anyway, my point is that we should love one another, and the commandments of God don't leave us hanging as to how to do this, but provides us loads of specifics on what it looks like to love God and love our neighbor.

Firstfruits
Sep 28th 2008, 07:51 PM
Well, not all of what is written about Jesus in the Law and the Prophets has yet been fulfilled, we are still awaiting His return, His conquering of the enemies of God, and His re-making of the world so that we can enjoy our eternal Rest - the New Heaven and New Earth.

So in the meantime, I believe we should follow the example of Jesus and his Apostles...and try to live so much as we can as did they. Certainly Christ commanded us to love one another, as did St. John, and as John said, that is not a new commandment, but an old commandment that you have heard from the beginning, and yet it is a new commandment (how's that for confusing?!). Anyway, my point is that we should love one another, and the commandments of God don't leave us hanging as to how to do this, but provides us loads of specifics on what it looks like to love God and love our neighbor.

Thanks LitararyJoe,

I agree with what you have pointed out.

Thanks for your participation.

God bless you

Firstfruits