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markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 03:34 AM
Ask yourself WHY your eschatological (end times) views are what they are.

What I mean is this; Do our "end times" interpretations have deeper meanings & foundations than we sometimes realize? I say YES.
Even though there ARE secondary issues that are debatable within the Christian family, OTHER issues are TOTALLY, 100%, NON-NEGOTIABLE.
Eschatology, on the surface, IS debatable. The chronological chain of events in those "last days" is something we can disagree on, without having to divide over.

But the BIG QUESTION(s) to ask yourself might shake you up a bit. However; they might help you decide which viewpoint makes more sense. (That is; according to what SCRIPTURE teaches.

Question #1. - What is the sole requirement to receive forgiveness of sins, and salvation?
Answer: - Acceptance & belief that JESUS paid our sin debt IN FULL, ON the cross. HIS sacrifice was sufficient for ALL our sins, past, present, & future. (If you disagree, you may stop reading now, & go open your Bible to begin re-reading.) ;)

Question #2: - Is there anything I believe about "end times" events, that contradicts what is required for salvation?
Answer: - If you answered "Yes" to this question; How did you come to this conclusion? Where did this idea originate? And where are the foundational roots for your explanation? How & why does this contradict your core beliefs of salvation?

Question #3: - If you discover ANYTHING AT ALL, in your end times beliefs that is contradictory to what Jesus tells us is, "the ONLY way" to the Father and salvation; are you willing to throw that traditional viewpoint out the window, in favor of the truth?

Question #4. a - What DO I believe, when it comes to "end times"???
Question # 4. b - WHY do I believe that? And, where does that put me in conjunction with the other questions?

ANSWER: - If there's anything about your "End Times" beliefs that go against what Jesus EXPLICITLY taught about "salvation"; ANYTHING AT ALL.... then you may want to re-think your viewpoint.

WHY? - Simple; - We're warned about being given "a different gospel" than what the Apostles taught. (Yes paraphrasing here, as clarification for the "literal" sticklers. )
************************************************** ****

I'm not trying to force people to "change their views".
I just wonder if anyone ever thinks about the "bigger" picture, when it comes to breaking down the foundational basis for their individual eschatalogical interpretation???? :hmm:

Honestly,- sometimes I really don't think so.
I feel that SOOOOOO many of us stand behind what we "grew up with", ONLY because we "grew up with it."

Question #5. - Are you honestly WILLING to examine the entirety of your "end times" beliefs, and find out if they DO, or DON'T contradict Jesus?

Answer: ........................... (YOU fill in the blanks....)
ALSO-
There's no need to publicize your answers if you feel uncomfortable in doing so. These questions are for you to ask YOURSELF.

:cool:

Happy learning!

-Mark

markedward
Sep 4th 2008, 03:49 AM
Many have probably heard me say this before...

But I was raised in a Protestant home. Every church I've belonged to taught the Pre-Trib Rapture, Seven-Year Tribulation doctrine. They'd invite people to screenings of Left Behind movies, or openly recommended such-and-such books. When I was finally old enough to try to understand eschatology, I became a brash proponent of this sort of 'Futurist' view.

The first I had heard of this "Preterism" nonsense I dismissed it. I wouldn't hear of it. I wouldn't listen. And I was paranoid out of my mind that the Rapture would happen any day, or that suddenly my right to believe in Christ would be revoked by the government, or something.

Eventually, however, my curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to learn at least what Preterism's basic premise was. After two long years of research, I am adamantly a "Preterist." I didn't blindly leap into it. I wasn't raised in it as I was in 'Futurism.' It was entirely the opposite of what I had originally believed, but the more I studied it, the more I felt it lined up with Scripture.

I'm a little more open-minded to various interpretations, whether they are Preterism or Futurism (or Historicism), but now the first thing I always do is compare the claim being made to Scripture. Now I will listen, but I will always go to Scripture. If the claim doesn't fit, I toss it out. And after three years, I still find the basic premise of "Preterism" to be the best fit.

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 04:08 AM
Many have probably heard me say this before...

But I was raised in a Protestant home. Every church I've belonged to taught the Pre-Trib Rapture, Seven-Year Tribulation doctrine. They'd invite people to screenings of Left Behind movies, or openly recommended such-and-such books. When I was finally old enough to try to understand eschatology, I became a brash proponent of this sort of 'Futurist' view.

The first I had heard of this "Preterism" nonsense I dismissed it. I wouldn't heard of it. I wouldn't listen. And I was paranoid out of my mind that the Rapture would happen any day, or that suddenly my right to believe in Christ would be revoked by the government, or something.

Eventually, however, my curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to learn at least what Preterism's basic premise was. After two long years of research, I am adamantly a "Preterist." I didn't blindly leap into it. I wasn't raised in it as I was in 'Futurism.' It was entirely the opposite of what I had originally believed, but the more I studied it, the more I felt it lined up with Scripture.

I'm a little more open-minded to various interpretations, whether they are Preterism or Futurism (or Historicism), but now the first thing I always do is compare the claim being made to Scripture. Now I will listen, but I will always go to Scripture. If the claim doesn't fit, I toss it out. And after three years, I still find the basic premise of "Preterism" to be the best fit.

You & I come from very similar backgrounds.
Although the "reasons" that each of us started to dig into scripture on or own may vary, we ended up making a decision for the same reason.

I wouldn't yet classify myself a "Preterist"... at least not a "FULL" Preterist anyway... ;) But there are a lot of things I MUST agree with, which Full, AND Partial Preterists describe.

All I know is, MY view is being fine-tuned. I'm on the right channel, (so to speak) but I'm "going back & forth" trying to shake out the disruptive static. (know what I mean??)
Even though I grew up on a "Pre- Trib.... I mean, Pre-SET channel", ( :lol: ) I have grown older & wiser; and I know how to look at EVERYTHING, and can change the channel when I find "Nonsense".

:cool:

Thanks for your input & response!

I wonder how many others will honestly & openly give themselves a "Private self-exam"?
:hmm:

RevLogos
Sep 4th 2008, 05:09 AM
When it comes to end-times views, there are very few specifics I believe in with a high degree of confidence.


I am convinced Jesus is returning, and we will go with Him.
I am convinced that before Jesus returns, times for Christians will get tough, spiritually, economically, and in security. Christians will be under tremendous pressure to abandon their faith and accept false teachings. Many will.
Is there enough in our prophesy to be able to discern these false teachings? Yes.
I believe that if someone comes to earth claiming to be Jesus and even performing signs and wonders, I would be able to discern if this is really Jesus. Basically if Iím still here debating on this forum if someone is Jesus Ė he isnít Jesus.
In my younger years I could ďvisualize world peaceĒ where everyone has similar enough beliefs of right and wrong, good and evil, that everyone world-wide could basically get along. I no longer believe this; it will never happen. I can sum up the reason why in one single word, but Iíll save that for later.

Details beyond that I have less confidence in. What happens in the tribulations? How long are the tribulations? Minutes? Years? Does a single Antichrist become the focal point for world troubles, or is it millions of little antichrists? While I do have opinions on these things, I know my opinion has changed the more I read and study. These changes have in general moved me away from dispensational teachings.

danield
Sep 4th 2008, 05:21 AM
I my opinion, I think people’s views on eschatology will be divisive for some time. You see even Daniel did not understand his own dreams, and it took Gabriel to reveal to him that his visions were meant for those who were in the end days. They were so foreign to him that he just could not comprehend them, and all those horrible images of destruction became clear to his mind that it made him sick. I think God planned his mystery of the end days so that it could come to fruition in it’s own due course. I also think that the reason that several camps have been created is because we have just started to witness some of the things that have been hinted to in the end day’s passages. It is all very exciting to us because we are seeing the bible come to life like never before by predicting things that only could be accomplished by divine influence. It adds to the excitement of our belief to witness the unfolding of our faith. Simple things like …

Daniel 12:4 4 But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase."

People did not rush here and there in ages past, but they sure do now. And even though people were smart centuries ago, knowledge has never been a focal point of society as it is now. We have increased in knowledge, and probably much of what Daniel saw was something futuristic that he was trying to interpret. I am sure it is part of the reason why he prayed for understanding of his dreams.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I never worry about trying to convince everyone of my point of view because even if I am exactly right on my belief, I know it is not God’s plan to make sure everyone in the world knows what is to come to pass. Christ told us Revelation 16:15 15 "Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.

I do grieve for those who are unprepared, and I really hope that I am fully clothed for the day of his coming. However, I honestly think the debate about the end days will continue on until Christ appears in the clouds, and it is all just part of Gods perfect plan!

God Bless!

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 09:56 AM
I my opinion, I think peopleís views on eschatology will be divisive for some time. You see even Daniel did not understand his own dreams, and it took Gabriel to reveal to him that his visions were meant for those who were in the end days. They were so foreign to him that he just could not comprehend them, and all those horrible images of destruction became clear to his mind that it made him sick. I think God planned his mystery of the end days so that it could come to fruition in itís own due course. I also think that the reason that several camps have been created is because we have just started to witness some of the things that have been hinted to in the end dayís passages. It is all very exciting to us because we are seeing the bible come to life like never before by predicting things that only could be accomplished by divine influence. It adds to the excitement of our belief to witness the unfolding of our faith. Simple things like Ö


People did not rush here and there in ages past, but they sure do now. And even though people were smart centuries ago, knowledge has never been a focal point of society as it is now. We have increased in knowledge, and probably much of what Daniel saw was something futuristic that he was trying to interpret. I am sure it is part of the reason why he prayed for understanding of his dreams.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I never worry about trying to convince everyone of my point of view because even if I am exactly right on my belief, I know it is not Godís plan to make sure everyone in the world knows what is to come to pass. Christ told us Revelation 16:15 15 "Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.

I do grieve for those who are unprepared, and I really hope that I am fully clothed for the day of his coming. However, I honestly think the debate about the end days will continue on until Christ appears in the clouds, and it is all just part of Gods perfect plan!

God Bless!


Here's the problem I have with Daniel's prophecies & visions being related to US in the 21st century.
His prophecy was to be sealed up, until the "time of the end" was at hand, Correct?
How long has Daniel's prophecy been open? When was it unsealed? It had already been made available for the people before Jesus was born, so obviously that "time of the end" wasn't pertaining to the 21st century.
If it WAS about OUR "current time period", Daniel's prophecy would have only recently been opened. (Like within the past couple hundred years TOPS! ) Instead of over 2000 years ago, which is the real case.

You can't take Daniel & force his visions to fit into the 21st century. There's no way to logically make it work, given the fact that it contradicts scripture if you do.

Know what I mean?
;)

Joyfulparousia
Sep 4th 2008, 11:50 AM
Here's the problem I have with Daniel's prophecies & visions being related to US in the 21st century.
His prophecy was to be sealed up, until the "time of the end" was at hand, Correct?

Yep


How long has Daniel's prophecy been open?

It hasn't


When was it unsealed?

It wasn't.


It had already been made available for the people before Jesus was born, so obviously that "time of the end" wasn't pertaining to the 21st century.

Then angel was speaking of a key of revelation (metaphorically speaking) that would be given to understand the end-times with clarity.


If it WAS about OUR "current time period", Daniel's prophecy would have only recently been opened. (Like within the past couple hundred years TOPS! ) Instead of over 2000 years ago, which is the real case.

Unless it has yet to be opened. The people of Daniel 11:33 have the seal of understanding broken. They operate in the context of the Tribulation period.


You can't take Daniel & force his visions to fit into the 21st century.

Its actually "forcing them" to apply many of them backward.


There's no way to logically make it work, given the fact that it contradicts scripture if you do.

Sure there is. "Make it work" is a strong way of saying, "I don't really understand the book of Daniel and how it applies to the end-time generation."


Know what I mean?
;)

Yep

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 12:08 PM
Yep



It hasn't



It wasn't.



Then angel was speaking of a key of revelation (metaphorically speaking) that would be given to understand the end-times with clarity.



Unless it has yet to be opened. The people of Daniel 11:33 have the seal of understanding broken. They operate in the context of the Tribulation period.



Its actually "forcing them" to apply many of them backward.



Sure there is. "Make it work" is a strong way of saying, "I don't really understand the book of Daniel and how it applies to the end-time generation."



Yep

Daniel's book hasn't been opened???? :eek: Then what is it we've been reading all this time? And why did Jesus reference Daniel's book, if it STILL hasn't been opened?

AND... If it hasn't been opened yet, how could we possibly think it relates to US? We'd have NO idea what Daniel was told.....

I don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.
Besides, John, in Revelation, tells the Seven churches in Asia that he is their brother, & "Fellow companion in Tribulation"..... So if all of this stuff is STILL FUTURE, then John must be alive somewhere to this day....??

None of that makes sense. Sorry.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 4th 2008, 12:43 PM
Daniel's book hasn't been opened???? :eek:

Who said we understand it fully?


Then what is it we've been reading all this time? And why did Jesus reference Daniel's book, if it STILL hasn't been opened?

Did Jesus say, "The sealed vision is now opened."? The question to ask might be, "Are we actually in the time of the end?"


AND... If it hasn't been opened yet, how could we possibly think it relates to US? We'd have NO idea what Daniel was told.....

Who said that it relates to us?


I don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.

I'm trying to say that Daniel's book hasn't be unsealed (in a spiritual sense). Just like Johns 7 thunders in Rev. 10:4 are still "sealed".


Besides, John, in Revelation, tells the Seven churches in Asia that he is their brother, & "Fellow companion in Tribulation"..... So if all of this stuff is STILL FUTURE, then John must be alive somewhere to this day....??

Was John referring to the end time tribulation that Jesus referred to in Matt 24:21? Can you experience tribulation without being in the end-time tribulation? Or does the word tribulation only apply to the end-times?


None of that makes sense. Sorry.

Forgiven. ;)

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 03:13 PM
Who said we understand it fully?



Did Jesus say, "The sealed vision is now opened."? The question to ask might be, "Are we actually in the time of the end?"



Who said that it relates to us?



I'm trying to say that Daniel's book hasn't be unsealed (in a spiritual sense). Just like Johns 7 thunders in Rev. 10:4 are still "sealed".



Was John referring to the end time tribulation that Jesus referred to in Matt 24:21? Can you experience tribulation without being in the end-time tribulation? Or does the word tribulation only apply to the end-times?



Forgiven. ;)


Just a quick reply on "Tribulation" while I have a minute.... - Then back to work.. LOL!

Jesus and John BOTH were referring to a Tribulation that was "at hand"... the time was "near".... the things would happen SOON, in THEIR Generation; This was the tribulation / persecution that the followers of Christ would suffer at the hands of the Roman Empire.
This took place in the 1st century.

Yes, there are STILL prophecies yet to be fulfilled, such as the "second coming"; Judgment day; and the creation of the New Heaven / New Earth. But most of Revelation dealt with things that were just about to happen. Which is why John was told NOT to seal up the prophecy; for the time was "at hand".
(although concerning the " Seven thunders" subject, he was told not to write anything at all.... it wasn't that he wrote about it, but was told to seal it up....)

;)

David Taylor
Sep 4th 2008, 03:55 PM
Ask yourself WHY your eschatological (end times) views are what they are.

Question #1. - What is the sole requirement to receive forgiveness of sins, and salvation?
Answer: - Acceptance & belief that JESUS paid our sin debt IN FULL, ON the cross. HIS sacrifice was sufficient for ALL our sins, past, present, & future.

I agree absolutely; and I feel this one point is why my eschatological position changed years ago from my dispensational upbringing.

When I realized that this sole point was applicable to all human beings of all 'dispensations' and wasn't any different now than 3000 yrs from now (future or past), and wasn't different based on race; it had a big effect on my eschatological understanding; and I began to question alot of things I had known and had studied and had been taught.




Question #2: - Is there anything I believe about "end times" events, that contradicts what is required for salvation?
Answer: - If you answered "Yes" to this question; How did you come to this conclusion? Where did this idea originate? And where are the foundational roots for your explanation? How & why does this contradict your core beliefs of salvation?

Again, I think there can't be. Alot of folks say the Jews depending on the time-period, are saved differently than the Gentiles (again depending on the time-period), and other supposed events. I find no dichotomy in Christ however, whether now nor past or future. Humanity regardless of birthdate or race, is in need of a Saviour for their sins; and it is the same way for all humankind.





Question #3: - If you discover ANYTHING AT ALL, in your end times beliefs that is contradictory to what Jesus tells us is, "the ONLY way" to the Father and salvation; are you willing to throw that traditional viewpoint out the window, in favor of the truth?

Been there, done that. It's much more refreshing for me now; reading 'from' the scriptures, than reading 'into' the scriptures when I used to follow the prior endtime framework, and all the 'it's suppose to happen this way teaching', which scripture itself never taught.



Question #4. a - What DO I believe, when it comes to "end times"???
Question # 4. b - WHY do I believe that? And, where does that put me in conjunction with the other questions?

ANSWER: - If there's anything about your "End Times" beliefs that go against what Jesus EXPLICITLY taught about "salvation"; ANYTHING AT ALL.... then you may want to re-think your viewpoint.

WHY? - Simple; - We're warned about being given "a different gospel" than what the Apostles taught. (Yes paraphrasing here, as clarification for the "literal" sticklers. )

Will be interesting to see how people respond to your questions.

quiet dove
Sep 4th 2008, 05:03 PM
Question #1. - What is the sole requirement to receive forgiveness of sins, and salvation?
Answer: - Acceptance & belief that JESUS paid our sin debt IN FULL, ON the cross. HIS sacrifice was sufficient for ALL our sins, past, present, & future. (If you disagree, you may stop reading now, & go open your Bible to begin re-reading.) ;)
Agreed, of course



Question #2: - Is there anything I believe about "end times" events, that contradicts what is required for salvation?

No



Question #3: - If you discover ANYTHING AT ALL, in your end times beliefs that is contradictory to what Jesus tells us is, "the ONLY way" to the Father and salvation; are you willing to throw that traditional viewpoint out the window, in favor of the truth?/
I would, if I had found anything, my views have only been supported and strengthened.



Question #4. a - What DO I believe, when it comes to "end times"???
Question # 4. b - WHY do I believe that? And, where does that put me in conjunction with the other questions?
Because it is what I get when reading the Bible and it causes no conflict with the other questions



ANSWER: - If there's anything about your "End Times" beliefs that go against what Jesus EXPLICITLY taught about "salvation"; ANYTHING AT ALL.... then you may want to re-think your viewpoint.
Again, No



WHY? - Simple; - We're warned about being given "a different gospel" than what the Apostles taught. (Yes paraphrasing here, as clarification for the "literal" sticklers. )
No other gospel taught by my views, so I reckon I'm ok then.
************************************************** ****



I'm not trying to force people to "change their views".
I just wonder if anyone ever thinks about the "bigger" picture, when it comes to breaking down the foundational basis for their individual eschatalogical interpretation???? :hmm:
Good, because so far the arguments have only strengthened my views.



Question #5. - Are you honestly WILLING to examine the entirety of your "end times" beliefs, and find out if they DO, or DON'T contradict Jesus?

Answer: ........................... (YOU fill in the blanks....)

Have examinied my views, and consider learning a life long endevour. My end times views do not contradict anything Jesus said.



ALSO-
There's no need to publicize your answers if you feel uncomfortable in doing so. These questions are for you to ask YOURSELF.
No uncomfortable at all, it is not my views that leave me with .........blanks. Because if they did, I would change my views. The arguments to me have had blanks, and there fore only strengthened my views and my understanding. The arguments are blessings because they promote deeper study, more prayer, and therefor more understanding of my views.

Happy learning!

-Mark[/quote]

You present these questions as if to help. Or is it to tell those who disagree with your views we need to re-examine our views? Obviously you did not ask the questions to say you had changed your views so I must go with the later. And thats fine. As I said, the arguments against my views are a blessing, they do not shake or crumble, they strengthen and teach by causing further and deeper digging in the Word. So there is no doubt in my mind that no one telling me what to believe, not what I was raised with, no book I have read, and not the arguments of some very intelligent people against.

markdrums
Sep 4th 2008, 06:12 PM
Agreed, of course


No


I would, if I had found anything, my views have only been supported and strengthened.


Because it is what I get when reading the Bible and it causes no conflict with the other questions


Again, No


No other gospel taught by my views, so I reckon I'm ok then.
************************************************** ****


Good, because so far the arguments have only strengthened my views.



Have examinied my views, and consider learning a life long endevour. My end times views do not contradict anything Jesus said.


No uncomfortable at all, it is not my views that leave me with .........blanks. Because if they did, I would change my views. The arguments to me have had blanks, and there fore only strengthened my views and my understanding. The arguments are blessings because they promote deeper study, more prayer, and therefor more understanding of my views.

Happy learning!

-Mark

You present these questions as if to help. Or is it to tell those who disagree with your views we need to re-examine our views? Obviously you did not ask the questions to say you had changed your views so I must go with the later. And thats fine. As I said, the arguments against my views are a blessing, they do not shake or crumble, they strengthen and teach by causing further and deeper digging in the Word. So there is no doubt in my mind that no one telling me what to believe, not what I was raised with, no book I have read, and not the arguments of some very intelligent people against.[/quote]

:)
I appreciate your response & input!

I'm not trying to "set anyone up" with these questions; so hopefully they don't come across that way.
I agree that even though I've changed my mind about my previous dispensational upbringing, that I still don't know all the details about the "Last day".
Actually, many of the dispensational viewpoints do stay within the "Necessary doctrinal foundations." It's only when people say that JEWS can be saved in another way, that I have a real problem. (as in saying they'll be able to receive forgiveness of sins from reinstituted sacrifices.)

The fact that I see no reason for a new temple being rebuilt, is a subject I can discuss openly, without jumping on someone's case... LOL! But it depends on WHY the temple may or may not be rebuilt, & what it's purpose is.

Make sense?

Anyway, it's always good to hear other people's explanations & reasons for what they believe. I'm still learning, and look forward to finding out new tid-bits I didn't know before.

God Bless!!

-Mark

quiet dove
Sep 4th 2008, 08:36 PM
I'm not trying to "set anyone up" with these questions; so hopefully they don't come across that way.
I agree that even though I've changed my mind about my previous dispensational upbringing, that I still don't know all the details about the "Last day".
Actually, many of the dispensational viewpoints do stay within the "Necessary doctrinal foundations." It's only when people say that JEWS can be saved in another way, that I have a real problem. (as in saying they'll be able to receive forgiveness of sins from reinstituted sacrifices.)

The fact that I see no reason for a new temple being rebuilt, is a subject I can discuss openly, without jumping on someone's case... LOL! But it depends on WHY the temple may or may not be rebuilt, & what it's purpose is.

Make sense?

Anyway, it's always good to hear other people's explanations & reasons for what they believe. I'm still learning, and look forward to finding out new tid-bits I didn't know before.

God Bless!!

-Mark
I would agree that we are all still learning, and the biggest mistake is to stray from the mindset of learning.

I think it is either a misunderstanding and of course I'm figure mistaught by some that solid dispensationalism teaches any other way of salvation. Though it would not surprise me that there would be off shoots with some such inaccuracies. So for our conversations here, would be better asked about as opposed to assumed simply because a person is dispensational.

For the reinstituded sacrifices, and I have stated this in other threads, sacrifices before the cross never did what Christ did on the cross, there is no reason to think that after the cross they would be able to do what He did either. In a nutshell, sacrifice = obedience to what ever God commmands, sacrifice on the part of man simply cannot accomplish salvation. The Cross of Jesus was not a sacrifice by man but for man, so how could a reinstitued sacrifices of an animal, by man, possibly before or after the cross, be a sacrifice that accomplishes salvation? It cannot, I think we agree there.

The same with a temple being built, a temple, buildings are all over, church buildings are all over, do we not go there to gather with other believers and are we not told in scripture that where two or more gather in His name, He will be there. Does that contradict that we are also told we are a temple of God? Of course not. But it would be folly to believe that God can only exist within us. That we are His temple does not mean He can only exist with in us. Because as believers we are indwelt with God the Spirit, we are His possession, therefor we have dedicated ourselves to Him, and therefore are a temple of His. But He is certainly able to exist separately, He is His own entity, right?, I know you know that so don't take me wrong. To say that a building, called a temple, cannot be built because we are His temple, to me, is not a concrete argument.

Revelations says:
Rev 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
That certainly does not meand that God and the Lamb only exist within the believers and it doesn't mean the believers are gone. Obviously, saying that we are His temple is a matter of possession, and being one of such that we bring glory to Him, it is not a matter of the only place He can exist or the only temple possible. Spiritually or physically.

Anyway, just some thought, must go outside and wash the mutt before it gets to late.

quiet dove
Sep 4th 2008, 08:46 PM
Mark, in reading my post, sorry about the typos, don't have time to correct at the moment.