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legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 03:25 AM
The mosquito is a most annoying creature, that doesn't serve any purpose, isn't beautiful to look at, latches onto you to suck your blood, leaving annoying itchy bumps. In fact it is responsible for transmitting some pretty serious diseases around the world.

So why did God make them? Any ideas on this one? I have some ideas on this, but I would like to here your comments first.

Cheers,
Legoman

BrckBrln
Sep 5th 2008, 03:29 AM
Who knows? I doubt it was to make us laugh though as that is what the fainting goats are for. :rofl:

markedward
Sep 5th 2008, 03:56 AM
Frogs, lizards, and fish eat mosquitoes. They're part of the food-chain.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 5th 2008, 05:53 AM
I've often wondered if maybe mosquitoes (at least in their present form) might be part of the curse on the earth after the fall of man.

Duane Morse
Sep 5th 2008, 07:19 AM
I've often wondered if maybe mosquitoes (at least in their present form) might be part of the curse on the earth after the fall of man.


With that logic, anything we don't like or understand fully could be attributed as a part of 'the curse'.

Like markedward pointed out, they are a valid part of the food chain (but he forgot to mention dragonflies). And who knows what other benefits they afford the environment (or even ourselves), that we are simply too ignorant to observe or understand?

Anything that does not kill you, only makes you stronger.
Who said that?

Meaning, while some people become hypersensitive to mosquito bites, many also become resistant to the effects.
Becoming infected with a disease, and recovering from it, makes our immune system stronger.

If we were never in our life exposed to anything that made us sick, the first thing that came along that could - would wipe us out.

That might make for an interesting experiment (what with all the anti-bacterial products on the market these days).
Isolate a baby totally from anything that could bring infection for the first, say, 10 years of their life.
Then set them free in the world.

Would the person die from the first contagion they caught?
Or would their immune system be able to cope?


Personally, I am for less meds and inoculations and more for letting my body fight off whatever.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 5th 2008, 07:48 AM
With that logic, anything we don't like or understand fully could be attributed as a part of 'the curse'.

Like markedward pointed out, they are a valid part of the food chain (but he forgot to mention dragonflies). And who knows what other benefits they afford the environment (or even ourselves), that we are simply too ignorant to observe or understand?

Anything that does not kill you, only makes you stronger.
Who said that?

Meaning, while some people become hypersensitive to mosquito bites, many also become resistant to the effects.
Becoming infected with a disease, and recovering from it, makes our immune system stronger.

If we were never in our life exposed to anything that made us sick, the first thing that came along that could - would wipe us out.

That might make for an interesting experiment (what with all the anti-bacterial products on the market these days).
Isolate a baby totally from anything that could bring infection for the first, say, 10 years of their life.
Then set them free in the world.

Would the person die from the first contagion they caught?
Or would their immune system be able to cope?


Personally, I am for less meds and inoculations and more for letting my body fight off whatever.Nevertheless, it'll be A-OK with me if there aren't anymore mosquitoes around after the 2nd Coming.

Duane Morse
Sep 5th 2008, 07:52 AM
Nevertheless, it'll be A-OK with me if there aren't anymore mosquitoes around after the 2nd Coming.
Me too.:saint:

But in this world, they just may be necessary.:P

Semi-tortured
Sep 5th 2008, 03:08 PM
That's easy. So we could make Jurassic Park.

John146
Sep 5th 2008, 04:58 PM
The mosquito is a most annoying creature, that doesn't serve any purpose, isn't beautiful to look at, latches onto you to suck your blood, leaving annoying itchy bumps. In fact it is responsible for transmitting some pretty serious diseases around the world.

So why did God make them? Any ideas on this one? I have some ideas on this, but I would like to here your comments first.

Cheers,
LegomanGod did say everything He created was good, so He must have made them for some reason.

They do nothing for me but I found this: http://www.helium.com/items/262546-what-are-mosquitoes-good-for

I don't know anything about the website itself. I just found this link by going on Google.

Ta-An
Sep 5th 2008, 05:02 PM
That's easy. So we could make Jurassic Park.Exactly :lol: .

keck553
Sep 5th 2008, 07:05 PM
A bat can eat up to 10,000 mosquito's a day.

RoadWarrior
Sep 5th 2008, 07:08 PM
Without mosquitos, the frogs would all die.

Buck shot
Sep 5th 2008, 07:16 PM
Okay, now what about the love bugs in the south? :lol:

They do help us stay in shape by having to wash our windshields every time we go to the store :rofl:

RoadWarrior
Sep 5th 2008, 07:44 PM
Okay, now what about the love bugs in the south? :lol:

They do help us stay in shape by having to wash our windshields every time we go to the store :rofl:

Love bugs? I'm from the south, and I'm not familiar with those. Maybe that's a Texas bug. Nevertheless, I'm sure that any kind of bug will have a purpose. They might be a polliinator of some plant, or they might be (most likely are) a food source for other creatures.

Mosquito bites alone are annoying but not deadly. It is the little organisms who use mosquitos as free transportation that are deadly.

Washing your windshield is annoying too! Driving through the almond groves during the flower season, it is honeybees we have to wash off the front of our vehicles.

legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 07:59 PM
Ok there have been some good and funny responses so far :) I appreciate that.

The point about being part of the food chain is a good one, but it begs the question, couldn't the frogs learn to like something else? :D

Seriously though, if it was a food chain issue, why didn't God design mosquitos to eat the dandilions in my front lawn, instead of the blood in my arm? That would have taken care of two bird's with one stone. Don't have to worry about getting eaten alive while enjoying my beautiful dandilion-free lawn! And at least the frogs could still eat.

Yes there are probably a multitude of other purposes for the mosquito. The point I'm trying to make is that for some reason God designed the mosquito to suck blood out of my arm, causing me minor annoyance for most of my summers.

Now someone brought up the possibility that it was part of the curse given after the fall of Adam & Eve. Now I don't really think that is the reason. As someone else said, with that logic, all of the "bad/uncuddly/yucky/poisonous" creatures of this world would also be part of the curse. What about scorpions? Rattlesnakes? Cobra's? etc. They also must have their reasons for being what they are.

Lets look at the verse in Genesis 1:31: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

Many people use this verse to show that God's creation was "perfect" at the beginning, that is, it was perfect before the fall of man. If it was "perfect", then what the heck were the mosquitos doing there? I mean my idea of paradise is not sitting around in a beautiful garden, and still having to swat mosquitos.

Look at the verse again. First of all, it doesn't say "perfect", it says "very good". So what are mosquitos very good for? Being annoying pests. Thats what they are very good at.

What I am suggesting is God designed mosquitos to annoy us, suck our blood, potentially spread disease, and even possibly cause death. God wanted to annoy me every summer! Now that is profound.

Now consider Adam. When God created Adam, was Adam "perfect"? Or was he only "very good"? And what was Adam very good at? Well probably lots of things, but he was definitely very good at sinning, because it didn't take him very long to do it. God designed Adam to sin.

Now I know lots of people will think Adam sinned of his own free will, and God never intended sin to enter the world. But WAIT! Lets go back to the mosquito. Did the mosquito use its free will and decide to become an annoying blood sucking disease spreader? :lol: LOL that question makes me laugh.

Just some food for thought - I welcome your comments...

Legoman

John146
Sep 5th 2008, 08:22 PM
Ok there have been some good and funny responses so far :) I appreciate that.

The point about being part of the food chain is a good one, but it begs the question, couldn't the frogs learn to like something else? :D

Seriously though, if it was a food chain issue, why didn't God design mosquitos to eat the dandilions in my front lawn, instead of the blood in my arm? That would have taken care of two bird's with one stone. Don't have to worry about getting eaten alive while enjoying my beautiful dandilion-free lawn! And at least the frogs could still eat.

Yes there are probably a multitude of other purposes for the mosquito. The point I'm trying to make is that for some reason God designed the mosquito to suck blood out of my arm, causing me minor annoyance for most of my summers.

Now someone brought up the possibility that it was part of the curse given after the fall of Adam & Eve. Now I don't really think that is the reason. As someone else said, with that logic, all of the "bad/uncuddly/yucky/poisonous" creatures of this world would also be part of the curse. What about scorpions? Rattlesnakes? Cobra's? etc. They also must have their reasons for being what they are.

Lets look at the verse in Genesis 1:31: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

Many people use this verse to show that God's creation was "perfect" at the beginning, that is, it was perfect before the fall of man. If it was "perfect", then what the heck were the mosquitos doing there? I mean my idea of paradise is not sitting around in a beautiful garden, and still having to swat mosquitos.I'm not so sure that Adam and Eve had to bother with swatting mosquitoes before the fall. I tend to think that was not the case. Why would God have created anything that wasn't perfect from His perspective?


Look at the verse again. First of all, it doesn't say "perfect", it says "very good". So what are mosquitos very good for? Being annoying pests. Thats what they are very good at.You are looking at it from your own limited human perspective. God is the one who said it is very good. Try to look at it from His perspective, as hard as that might be to do. He said mosquitoes are very good. You say they are not good at all, except for being annoying. I'm going to side with God on this one. I may not like them and they annoy me, too, but if God says they're good then they are good. Just not so good from our perspective, which doesn't really matter compared to God's perspective.


What I am suggesting is God designed mosquitos to annoy us, suck our blood, potentially spread disease, and even possibly cause death. God wanted to annoy me every summer! Now that is profound.He decided to do that even before anyone sinned? What kind of a God is that?


Now consider Adam. When God created Adam, was Adam "perfect"? Or was he only "very good"? And what was Adam very good at? Well probably lots of things, but he was definitely very good at sinning, because it didn't take him very long to do it. God designed Adam to sin.Where does it say God designed Adam to sin?

legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 08:49 PM
I'm not so sure that Adam and Eve had to bother with swatting mosquitoes before the fall. I tend to think that was not the case. Why would God have created anything that wasn't perfect from His perspective?


So where where were the mosquitos then? Or were they just friendly non-biting bugs at that point?



You are looking at it from your own limited human perspective. God is the one who said it is very good. Try to look at it from His perspective, as hard as that might be to do. He said mosquitoes are very good. You say they are not good at all, except for being annoying. I'm going to side with God on this one. I may not like them and they annoy me, too, but if God says they're good then they are good. Just not so good from our perspective, which doesn't really matter compared to God's perspective.
Perhaps you missed my point. I did show it from God's perspective. Yes, from our perspective the mosquito is annoying. But from God's perspective it is very good. And why is it very good? Because it is doing exactly what God intended it to do. That is the point! God designed the mosquito to be annoying. The mosquito is annoying, therfore it is very good because it is doing as God intended! The mosquito is functioning to specification.



He decided to do that even before anyone sinned? What kind of a God is that?
God knew we would sin from the beginning. God is all-knowing right?



Where does it say God designed Adam to sin?
Romans 8:20
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"

Legoman

John146
Sep 5th 2008, 09:02 PM
So where where were the mosquitos then? Or were they just friendly non-biting bugs at that point?Yeah, I think they probably were. The fall affected the whole world, including the wildlife. The wildlife was friendly with Adam and Eve before the fall. They had dominion over the animals. After that, not so much.


Perhaps you missed my point. I did show it from God's perspective. Yes, from our perspective the mosquito is annoying. But from God's perspective it is very good. And why is it very good? Because it is doing exactly what God intended it to do. That is the point!I don't believe He designed the mosquito to annoy people. That would mean He is a mean God that likes to torture people.


God designed the mosquito to be annoying. The mosquito is annoying, therfore it is very good because it is doing as God intended! The mosquito is functioning to specification.I don't believe God designed the mosquito that way. Why would He have done that?


God knew we would sin from the beginning. God is all-knowing right?His being all knowing is not the same as Him predetermining everything.


Romans 8:20
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"

LegomanThat does not say that God designed Adam to sin. That's quite a stretch. God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean He wanted him to. You should note that the lake of fire ("everlasting fire") was made originally for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). If God designed Adam to sin, why wasn't the lake of fire designed originally for the devil, his angels and rebellious human beings?

RoadWarrior
Sep 5th 2008, 09:30 PM
Now I know lots of people will think Adam sinned of his own free will, and God never intended sin to enter the world. But WAIT! Lets go back to the mosquito. Did the mosquito use its free will and decide to become an annoying blood sucking disease spreader? :lol: LOL that question makes me laugh.

Just some food for thought - I welcome your comments...

Legoman

Ah, I get it now. You designed a thread that would appear to be light-hearted and entertaining, fun even; but your ultimate goal was that the thread should be a kick-off to yet another dispute about free will and predestination.

Sigh.

DigReal
Sep 5th 2008, 09:31 PM
Interesting thread, Legoman! I've actually wondered about this myself. :hmm:

Personally, I don't think Adam and Eve had to deal with annoying bugs, weeds, disease, etc. At least, not while in God's garden. After all, The Garden of Eden was God's own special place on the earth, made just for the enjoyment of Him and his most special creation. IOW, the garden was a place not like the world beyond (just as we try to make our own gardens unlike the surroundings). Once they were evicted, Adam and Eve had to deal with a very different world. Within Eden, all Creation got along. Beyond was the world we know today.

Well, something like that (I wasn't there). Anyways, you get the idea.

Legoman, your thread has inspired me to start my first new thread (about "perfection"). Hope you visit.

legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 09:51 PM
Ah, I get it now. You designed a thread that would appear to be light-hearted and entertaining, fun even; but your ultimate goal was that the thread should be a kick-off to yet another dispute about free will and predestination.

Sigh.

Glad to meet you RoadWarrior :)

The concept of free will or not, is a foundation to what we believe. It is rather important wouldn't you say? If you don't want to discuss, you don't have to join the conversation.

I thought I would try a different approach to discussing why things are the way they are. Why are there mosquitos is a valid question is it not?

John146 seems to think they turned bad after the fall. That is a possibility. But even so, it still must have been God that made the mosquito that way. He made it that way on purpose. Was God being mean, or did he want to teach us something with the mosquito?

Now I'm not convinced the mosquito did turn bad after the fall.

Here is the curse Adam & Eve received:
Genesis 3
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you." 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Seems to me the gist of this is that women will have pain in childbirth, and we will now have to work harder to gather our food. Thorns, thistles and weed will make it harder for us to get that food.

Is there some other verses that mention what happens to animals after the fall?

Now given that God made the mosquito the way he is, don't we have to conceed that God made us the way we are?

Cheers,
Legoman

legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 09:57 PM
Yeah, I think they probably were. The fall affected the whole world, including the wildlife. The wildlife was friendly with Adam and Eve before the fall. They had dominion over the animals. After that, not so much.

I don't believe He designed the mosquito to annoy people. That would mean He is a mean God that likes to torture people.

I don't believe God designed the mosquito that way. Why would He have done that?

His being all knowing is not the same as Him predetermining everything.

That does not say that God designed Adam to sin. That's quite a stretch. God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean He wanted him to. You should note that the lake of fire ("everlasting fire") was made originally for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). If God designed Adam to sin, why wasn't the lake of fire designed originally for the devil, his angels and rebellious human beings?

Ok how did the mosquito get to be the way it is? Did Satan change the mosquito?

We can leave the free will debates to the predestination thread if you want. I've stated my position over there.

My main point is if God made the mosquito the way it is, then God must have made us the way we are as well. Hmm, we probably will need to discuss free will here...

I quoted Genesis 3:16-19 in my reply to RoadWarrior and I don't see any mention of animals in there.

Is there another verse that shows what happened to the animals after the fall?

Cheers,
Legoman

RoadWarrior
Sep 5th 2008, 10:02 PM
Well, Lego, it's a subject that just won't go away, so I guess I must chin up and wade in. Since you have focused on the mosquito, the question can be re-framed -

For what purpose did God create the mosquito? And how was the mosquito affected by the Fall?

God created the mosquito to help pollinate flowers. The mosquito drank juice from berries.

After the Fall, the mosquito continued to do this, but also began to drink the blood of animals. And became food for other animals.

Thus, the mosquito was not designed primarily to annoy you. It is part of the Fall, that the mosquito now annoys you and spreads disease. He has been taken captive to do the will of the enemy. :cry:

legoman
Sep 5th 2008, 11:37 PM
Well, Lego, it's a subject that just won't go away, so I guess I must chin up and wade in. Since you have focused on the mosquito, the question can be re-framed -

For what purpose did God create the mosquito? And how was the mosquito affected by the Fall?

God created the mosquito to help pollinate flowers. The mosquito drank juice from berries.

After the Fall, the mosquito continued to do this, but also began to drink the blood of animals. And became food for other animals.

Thus, the mosquito was not designed primarily to annoy you. It is part of the Fall, that the mosquito now annoys you and spreads disease. He has been taken captive to do the will of the enemy. :cry:

Ok first of all do mosquitoes actually drink berry juice? I'm sincerely asking here - I'm no biologist. I always thought they lived off the blood of animals.

For the purposes of your scenario, lets say they did. Then the fall happens, and the mosquito "turns bad". What caused this? Did Satan make the mosquito "evil"? Or did God do it?

Even if we say Satan did it, we have to realize that Satan can do nothing without God's permission.

This is how I see it. In effect, one way or another, God made the mosquito the way it is.

It makes no sense, unless God had intended it to be that way (either before or after the fall).

Why would God intend for mosquito to bug us so much? Well its just one of life's many little trials that God created to refine our character.

Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Legoman

RoadWarrior
Sep 6th 2008, 12:00 AM
Ok first of all do mosquitoes actually drink berry juice? I'm sincerely asking here - I'm no biologist. I always thought they lived off the blood of animals.

For the purposes of your scenario, lets say they did. Then the fall happens, and the mosquito "turns bad". What caused this? Did Satan make the mosquito "evil"? Or did God do it?

Even if we say Satan did it, we have to realize that Satan can do nothing without God's permission.

This is how I see it. In effect, one way or another, God made the mosquito the way it is.

It makes no sense, unless God had intended it to be that way (either before or after the fall).

Why would God intend for mosquito to bug us so much? Well its just one of life's many little trials that God created to refine our character.

Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Legoman

Lego, I see a difference between what God causes, and what He allows. Now I know that some will differ from that opinion.

Google is most helpful! I asked for "mosquitos eat" and found this right away:


Re: What do mosquitos eat?

Date: Mon Dec 1 10:36:47 2003
Posted By: Chris Reigstad, Grad student, Molecular Biology and Pharmacology, Washington University in St. Louis
Area of science: General Biology
ID: 1069951606.Gb
Message:

Interesting question, Maya!Depending on the species of the mosquito, most males AND females feed on plant nectars (sugars) for energy. Females are thought to need "blood meals" for the development of their eggs. Males subsist on nectar alone, but only live for about a week. This information can be found on a website maintained by Oklahoma State University's Department of Entomology and Plant Pathology (http://www.ento.okstate.edu/mosquito/biology.html). The Florida State Department of Health also has information about your question, as it relates to transmission of the West Nile Virus (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/chdEscambia/mosquito_biology.htm).Hope this helps,Christopher Reigstad

legoman
Sep 6th 2008, 12:19 AM
Google is most helpful! I asked for "mosquitos eat" and found this right away:


Re: What do mosquitos eat?

Date: Mon Dec 1 10:36:47 2003
Posted By: Chris Reigstad, Grad student, Molecular Biology and Pharmacology, Washington University in St. Louis
Area of science: General Biology
ID: 1069951606.Gb
Message:

Interesting question, Maya!Depending on the species of the mosquito, most males AND females feed on plant nectars (sugars) for energy. Females are thought to need "blood meals" for the development of their eggs. Males subsist on nectar alone, but only live for about a week. This information can be found on a website maintained by Oklahoma State University's Department of Entomology and Plant Pathology (http://www.ento.okstate.edu/mosquito/biology.html). The Florida State Department of Health also has information about your question, as it relates to transmission of the West Nile Virus (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/chdEscambia/mosquito_biology.htm).Hope (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/chdEscambia/mosquito_biology.htm%29.Hope) this helps,Christopher Reigstad

Ok, thanks for the google reference, you learn something every day. Clearly I need more plant nectar in my back yard... ;)



Lego, I see a difference between what God causes, and what He allows. Now I know that some will differ from that opinion.
I think I got your position RoadWarrior, you didn't say it exactly, but I am inferring that you believe Satan somehow caused the mosquito problem and God is simply allowing it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyone else have a different view of this?

Cheers,
Legoman

RoadWarrior
Sep 6th 2008, 12:26 AM
Ok, thanks for the google reference, you learn something every day. Clearly I need more plant nectar in my back yard... ;)

I think I got your position RoadWarrior, you didn't say it exactly, but I am inferring that you believe Satan somehow caused the mosquito problem and God is simply allowing it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyone else have a different view of this?

Cheers,
Legoman


God created the world, Satan triggered the Fall. I still don't know why God has given Satan so much leeway, but I'm sure we'll have the answer in eternity.

At least you can be comforted that only the female mosquitos are biting you! ;) :lol:

Do you have the West Nile virus in your area? It has arrived in California, and I think it is decimating our bird populations. :cry: I haven't seen a scrub jay all summer.

legoman
Sep 6th 2008, 12:26 AM
Interesting thread, Legoman! I've actually wondered about this myself. :hmm:

Personally, I don't think Adam and Eve had to deal with annoying bugs, weeds, disease, etc. At least, not while in God's garden. After all, The Garden of Eden was God's own special place on the earth, made just for the enjoyment of Him and his most special creation. IOW, the garden was a place not like the world beyond (just as we try to make our own gardens unlike the surroundings). Once they were evicted, Adam and Eve had to deal with a very different world. Within Eden, all Creation got along. Beyond was the world we know today.


Ok I am somewhat open to that idea, but I don't see it in Genesis. Interesting though. What do you think caused the bugs to rebel then?

Stupid question: what does "IOW" mean. I keep seeing it.



Well, something like that (I wasn't there). Anyways, you get the idea.

Legoman, your thread has inspired me to start my first new thread (about "perfection"). Hope you visit.Thanks.

Another question you have inspired of me. Where is the garden of eden now? Now I think scholars thought it was somewhere around the Tigris & Euphrates rivers... is that correct? So what is there now? I guess there probably isn't the remains of a beautiful garden lying around... that would be too easy :)

Cheers,
Legoman

RoadWarrior
Sep 6th 2008, 12:33 AM
Stupid question: what does "IOW" mean. I keep seeing it.
..

Another question you have inspired of me. Where is the garden of eden now? Now I think scholars thought it was somewhere around the Tigris & Euphrates rivers... is that correct? So what is there now? I guess there probably isn't the remains of a beautiful garden lying around... that would be too easy :)

Cheers,
Legoman

Sorry to keep answering your questions, I just can't help myself!

IOW - in other words

The garden of eden - the mountains of Eastern Turkey, the 4 rivers flow out of those mountains. Only the Tigris and Euphrates still survive as rivers. It is rugged and beautiful territory. In a restaurant in that area, we were served a most interesting leafy vegetable. We asked the name and were told it is called "good to eat". And no, we didn't see the remains of the garden, but the whole area is like a beautiful garden.

Many peoples in the middle east like to claim this spot or that for the garden of eden, for Noah's ark, for the birthplace of Abraham, etc. Mostly it is traditions from ancient times, but the footprints of Biblical history are still found there.

legoman
Sep 6th 2008, 12:36 AM
God created the world, Satan triggered the Fall. I still don't know why God has given Satan so much leeway, but I'm sure we'll have the answer in eternity.


Well that is the $64000 question isn't it ;) I'm sure if you search for the answer with an open heart, you may find it (if God wills it). Prayer helps too. But you are right, we'll all find out at the end so its really a moot point now...




At least you can be comforted that only the female mosquitos are biting you! ;) :lol:
LOL Dang its always the females...



Do you have the West Nile virus in your area? It has arrived in California, and I think it is decimating our bird populations. :cry: I haven't seen a scrub jay all summer.Yes I think we do, but probably not as much as you would down south. I am in a more northernly climate than you are (Canada).

Cheers.

And we didn't even have to debate free will ;)

Legoman

RoadWarrior
Sep 6th 2008, 12:39 AM
Well that is the $64000 question isn't it ;) I'm sure if you search for the answer with an open heart, you may find it (if God wills it). Prayer helps too. But you are right, we'll all find out at the end so its really a moot point now...

...

And we didn't even have to debate free will ;)

Legoman

Oh, if you want to chat about free will, go read my posts in the predestination and choice thread!

And perhaps another day we'll chat about God and Satan, starting in the first 3 chapters of Job.

legoman
Sep 6th 2008, 12:45 AM
Oh, if you want to chat about free will, go read my posts in the predestination and choice thread!

And perhaps another day we'll chat about God and Satan, starting in the first 3 chapters of Job.

Ok I'll see you over there I'm sure! Unfortunately I think I'm behind by about 50 posts right now... that's a tough thread to keep on top of.

Regarding your trip to Turkey/Tigris/Euphrates, that sounds really fascinating. I would really like to make that trip some day - probably when our children are a bit (or a lot) older. I'd like to make it to Egypt as well.

And I will have to do some more study in Job as well...

Cheers,
Legoman

DigReal
Sep 6th 2008, 09:03 PM
Ok I am somewhat open to that idea, but I don't see it in Genesis. Interesting though. What do you think caused the bugs to rebel then?

Stupid question: what does "IOW" mean. I keep seeing it.

Thanks.

Another question you have inspired of me. Where is the garden of eden now? Now I think scholars thought it was somewhere around the Tigris & Euphrates rivers... is that correct? So what is there now? I guess there probably isn't the remains of a beautiful garden lying around... that would be too easy :)

Cheers,
Legoman


Sorry for any confusion I may have caused there. When I see things left out from what I'm reading, I tend to let my imagination fill in the gaps. In this case life forms that are harmful and/or annoying.

Since God had already created all life forms we know by the time of Adam, and they all serve a purpose, I figure He kept those forms that would be unpleasant to Adam and Eve out of His garden. So to my way of seeing things, mosquitoes and flies, thorns and weeds, even virus existed then as they do now. They were told to stay out. Kinda like what we try to do with our own gardens, except that where we 'try', God 'does'.

Oh, and thanks RoadWarrior, for covering the IOW. As for the location, you may very well be correct. But keep in mind that we're talking about a time before the flood. Up until then, the climate of the world was probably very different than today. The entire ME may have been lush and tropical! :hmm: that could be an interesting discussion for another thread. I'm overdue for a reread of Genesis.

legoman
Sep 11th 2008, 04:23 AM
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused there. When I see things left out from what I'm reading, I tend to let my imagination fill in the gaps. In this case life forms that are harmful and/or annoying.

Since God had already created all life forms we know by the time of Adam, and they all serve a purpose, I figure He kept those forms that would be unpleasant to Adam and Eve out of His garden. So to my way of seeing things, mosquitoes and flies, thorns and weeds, even virus existed then as they do now. They were told to stay out. Kinda like what we try to do with our own gardens, except that where we 'try', God 'does'.

Oh, and thanks RoadWarrior, for covering the IOW. As for the location, you may very well be correct. But keep in mind that we're talking about a time before the flood. Up until then, the climate of the world was probably very different than today. The entire ME may have been lush and tropical! :hmm: that could be an interesting discussion for another thread. I'm overdue for a reread of Genesis.

Ah that is an interesting idea. I didn't consider that everything else (the "bad" stuff) was outside of the Garden of Eden when God created the earth. I'm not sure if there is any scriptural support for this though. Do you have any ideas DigReal?

And it still begs the question, why did God create the mosquito then (specifically why did he create it to be annoying)? Right now I am inclined to believe that it was designed to be that way. Basically just one of the many little trials of life. Probably part of God's plan for us to learn patience.

Cheers,
Legoman

SIG
Sep 12th 2008, 03:20 AM
God created mosquitoes just as they are today--and they were very good. They were in the Garden with Adam and Eve--and Adam and Eve were very good.

When Adam and Eve were bitten by the (very good) mosquitoes, it felt GREAT!

Then (very good) Adam and Eve sinned--and things turned very bad.

Now when (very bad) Adam and Eve were bitten by the (very good) mosquitoes, it felt very bad.

And that's how (very good) mosquitoes turn bad.

IPet2_9
Sep 12th 2008, 03:38 AM
If God didn't create mosquitos, Louisiana wouldn't have a state bird.

Puritan
Sep 12th 2008, 08:05 PM
Ok there have been some good and funny responses so far :) I appreciate that.

The point about being part of the food chain is a good one, but it begs the question, couldn't the frogs learn to like something else? :D

Seriously though, if it was a food chain issue, why didn't God design mosquitos to eat the dandilions in my front lawn, instead of the blood in my arm? That would have taken care of two bird's with one stone. Don't have to worry about getting eaten alive while enjoying my beautiful dandilion-free lawn! And at least the frogs could still eat.

Yes there are probably a multitude of other purposes for the mosquito. The point I'm trying to make is that for some reason God designed the mosquito to suck blood out of my arm, causing me minor annoyance for most of my summers.

Now someone brought up the possibility that it was part of the curse given after the fall of Adam & Eve. Now I don't really think that is the reason. As someone else said, with that logic, all of the "bad/uncuddly/yucky/poisonous" creatures of this world would also be part of the curse. What about scorpions? Rattlesnakes? Cobra's? etc. They also must have their reasons for being what they are.

Lets look at the verse in Genesis 1:31: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

Many people use this verse to show that God's creation was "perfect" at the beginning, that is, it was perfect before the fall of man. If it was "perfect", then what the heck were the mosquitos doing there? I mean my idea of paradise is not sitting around in a beautiful garden, and still having to swat mosquitos.

Look at the verse again. First of all, it doesn't say "perfect", it says "very good". So what are mosquitos very good for? Being annoying pests. Thats what they are very good at.

What I am suggesting is God designed mosquitos to annoy us, suck our blood, potentially spread disease, and even possibly cause death. God wanted to annoy me every summer! Now that is profound.

Now consider Adam. When God created Adam, was Adam "perfect"? Or was he only "very good"? And what was Adam very good at? Well probably lots of things, but he was definitely very good at sinning, because it didn't take him very long to do it. God designed Adam to sin.

Now I know lots of people will think Adam sinned of his own free will, and God never intended sin to enter the world. But WAIT! Lets go back to the mosquito. Did the mosquito use its free will and decide to become an annoying blood sucking disease spreader? :lol: LOL that question makes me laugh.

Just some food for thought - I welcome your comments...

Legoman
I was talking to someone about this the other day. How God created some creatures that are very deadly, like the poisonous snakes, sharks, loins, tigers and bears. These and other deadly animals were created by God for a purpose and they were created to fit in this world, that God has also created.

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2008, 08:10 PM
So why did God make them? Any ideas on this one?
So that I can wear a glow in the dark wristband with Citronella oil on it :rolleyes:

Puritan
Sep 12th 2008, 08:14 PM
He has been taken captive to do the will of the enemy. :cry:
:D Not at all. The mosquito has free will.

Instrument
Sep 12th 2008, 08:30 PM
The mosquito is a most annoying creature, that doesn't serve any purpose, isn't beautiful to look at, latches onto you to suck your blood, leaving annoying itchy bumps. In fact it is responsible for transmitting some pretty serious diseases around the world.

So why did God make them? Any ideas on this one? I have some ideas on this, but I would like to here your comments first.

Cheers,
Legoman



mosquitoes are a plague. We must not forget that God sent a plague of mosquitoes on Egypt, so it is not possible they existed in the original creation of God.

These are simply the results of the curse that God put on earth caused by the fall of Adam.

greetings.

Puritan
Sep 12th 2008, 08:40 PM
mosquitoes are a plague. We must not forget that God sent a plague of mosquitoes on Egypt, so it is not possible they existed in the original creation of God.

These are simply the results of the curse that God put on earth caused by the fall of Adam.

greetings.
Did frogs exist before the fall?

Instrument
Sep 12th 2008, 10:38 PM
Did frogs exist before the fall?
Ex 8 shows that frogs are plague. It is not posible that it was in Eden.

DigReal
Sep 13th 2008, 12:40 AM
Ah that is an interesting idea. I didn't consider that everything else (the "bad" stuff) was outside of the Garden of Eden when God created the earth. I'm not sure if there is any scriptural support for this though. Do you have any ideas DigReal?

And it still begs the question, why did God create the mosquito then (specifically why did he create it to be annoying)? Right now I am inclined to believe that it was designed to be that way. Basically just one of the many little trials of life. Probably part of God's plan for us to learn patience.

Cheers,
Legoman

Sorry Legoman, no biblical support that I know of (I'm still kinda new to the Bible, though... lots to learn). But as I mentioned, if the Bible doesn't address a question, I use whatever logic and imagination God gave me to fill in. I'm usually satisfied with the results.

As to the "why" of it? I don't think that can be answered in this thread (if anywhere). I believe it has to do with the way God thinks about His process of Creation (that is, I don't see pesky insects or frogs as a creation to fulfill a curse...they were part of His original design of life... they're being annoying is just something that works perfectly into His design). Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I believe curses to be as much about the way we perceive or interact, as the way something was originally designed. SIG may be on to something! :idea:

IPet2_9
Sep 13th 2008, 12:47 AM
Did frogs exist before the fall?

"Bud"
"Weis"
"Errrrr"


Um....no....

DigReal
Sep 13th 2008, 12:50 AM
God created mosquitoes just as they are today--and they were very good. They were in the Garden with Adam and Eve--and Adam and Eve were very good.

When Adam and Eve were bitten by the (very good) mosquitoes, it felt GREAT!

Then (very good) Adam and Eve sinned--and things turned very bad.

Now when (very bad) Adam and Eve were bitten by the (very good) mosquitoes, it felt very bad.

And that's how (very good) mosquitoes turn bad.

Very good answer, SIG! The results are certainly different, but you're exploring just as we all could. And with some humor (I think). I like that!

SIG
Sep 13th 2008, 10:42 PM
On a more serious note: Part of a commentary by David Guzik on Isaiah 11:6>

B. The glorious reign of the King.

1. (6-9) The new ecology of the reign of the Messiah.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobraís hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viperís den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

a. The wolf also dwell with the lamb: When the Messiah reigns, nature will be transformed. No longer will there be predators among the animals, and seemingly all animals will be only herbivores (the cow and the bear shall graze . . . the lion shall eat straw like the ox).

i. Romans 8:19-22 says: The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Nature is waiting for the transformation that will come when the Messiah reigns and believers are glorified.

b. And a little child shall lead them: Not only will the way animals relate to each other be changed, but the way they relate to humans will be changed. A little child will be safe and able to lead a wolf or a leopard or a young lion or a bear. Even the danger of predators like cobras and vipers will be gone.

SIG: It occurs to me that after the Fall, one major factor in the relationship between man and animals and between animals themselves is the shedding of blood. Death was in the Curse, and life is in the blood. Death, one way or the other, involves the forfeiture of blood, literally or figuratively.

This explains why mosquitoes bite!

MyGod
Sep 13th 2008, 10:52 PM
Ah, I get it now. You designed a thread that would appear to be light-hearted and entertaining, fun even; but your ultimate goal was that the thread should be a kick-off to yet another dispute about free will and predestination.

Sigh.

Lol. I haven't been here long but I came to that conclusion too.

amazzin
Sep 13th 2008, 10:58 PM
The mosquito is a most annoying creature, that doesn't serve any purpose, isn't beautiful to look at, latches onto you to suck your blood, leaving annoying itchy bumps. In fact it is responsible for transmitting some pretty serious diseases around the world.

So why did God make them? Any ideas on this one? I have some ideas on this, but I would like to here your comments first.

Cheers,
Legoman

Because He can and He did and it`s done!

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 15th 2008, 04:59 AM
With that logic, anything we don't like or understand fully could be attributed as a part of 'the curse'.

Like markedward pointed out, they are a valid part of the food chain (but he forgot to mention dragonflies). And who knows what other benefits they afford the environment (or even ourselves), that we are simply too ignorant to observe or understand?

Anything that does not kill you, only makes you stronger.
Who said that?

Meaning, while some people become hypersensitive to mosquito bites, many also become resistant to the effects.
Becoming infected with a disease, and recovering from it, makes our immune system stronger.

If we were never in our life exposed to anything that made us sick, the first thing that came along that could - would wipe us out.

That might make for an interesting experiment (what with all the anti-bacterial products on the market these days).
Isolate a baby totally from anything that could bring infection for the first, say, 10 years of their life.
Then set them free in the world.

Would the person die from the first contagion they caught?
Or would their immune system be able to cope?


Personally, I am for less meds and inoculations and more for letting my body fight off whatever.

Yes....but before the Fall, there was no disease. How, then, would this have benefitted in a perfect world?

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 15th 2008, 05:09 AM
Now someone brought up the possibility that it was part of the curse given after the fall of Adam & Eve. Now I don't really think that is the reason. As someone else said, with that logic, all of the "bad/uncuddly/yucky/poisonous" creatures of this world would also be part of the curse. What about scorpions? Rattlesnakes? Cobra's? etc. They also must have their reasons for being what they are.

Well, we know that whn Adam was cursed, all of creation was cursed along with him. Sin entered the "world"....not just the human race. Would it be possible that creation was altered when Adam sinned, thereby causing mosquitos and other insects to live and behave as they do?

Look at flies....flies do nothing but carry disease, and their maggot offspring hatch inside the dead flesh...seeing as how there was no death before the Fall, how would they have spawned or reproduced? What about cockroaches?

There are only 2 possibilities...either God created them in a way different than than they are today, or they were not around until after the Fall of man. I think either way is plausible.

SirTanTee
Sep 15th 2008, 05:16 AM
What's ironic is that mosquitos are perhaps the most annoying bug, but they are also the world's most successful. :rolleyes: Unfortunately.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 15th 2008, 05:25 AM
What's ironic is that mosquitos are perhaps the most annoying bug, but they are also the world's most successful. :rolleyes: Unfortunately.


Yes....but only cockroaches could survive a nuclear holocaust :rolleyes:

Realist1981
Sep 15th 2008, 05:37 AM
Yes....but only cockroaches could survive a nuclear holocaust :rolleyes:

I think Chuck Norris can survive one also.

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 15th 2008, 05:43 AM
I think Chuck Norris can survive one also.


LOL....not only that, but Chuck Norris is the closest human equivalent to a nuclear holocaust!! :lol:

Puritan
Sep 15th 2008, 12:00 PM
Ex 8 shows that frogs are plague. It is not posible that it was in Eden.
Gen 1 shows that God created the frog on the sixth day or they could have been created on the fifth day as tadpoles.