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Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 07:07 AM
The following scriptures lead us to believe that God put into our hearts either the ten commandments/law of Moses, or the Spirit/Jesus.

What therefore do we have in our heart?

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

2 Corinthians 3:1-171 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Firstfruits

walked
Sep 5th 2008, 09:15 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
I think I know what you are asking, if not then I apologize.

Mosaic law and the ten commandments are teachers and will be used by God to teach us of Himself but neither of these will be written on our hearts/minds.
The Holy spirit is not a teacher or a law but is a guide and comforter, the Holy spirit will dwell in the hearts/minds of Gods servants to bring to their memory the word and will of God enabling His servants to do His will.
This is His will, and His will is His servants law.
(love of God and mercy to our fellow man will be written on our hearts)

What is the evidence of our love of God? ..our obedience to Him.
What is the evidence of our mercy to our fellowman? ..our willingness to die to our own desires and live to sacrifice for them.

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 09:54 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
I think I know what you are asking, if not then I apologize.

Mosaic law and the ten commandments are teachers and will be used by God to teach us of Himself but neither of these will be written on our hearts/minds.
The Holy spirit is not a teacher or a law but is a guide and comforter, the Holy spirit will dwell in the hearts/minds of Gods servants to bring to their memory the word and will of God enabling His servants to do His will.
This is His will, and His will is His servants law.
(love of God and mercy to our fellow man will be written on our hearts)

What is the evidence of our love of God? ..our obedience to Him.
What is the evidence of our mercy to our fellowman? ..our willingness to die to our own desires and live to sacrifice for them.

Thanks Walked,

You have understood, so no apologies needed.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 5th 2008, 06:24 PM
Whatever you believe that God has put in your heart, do you believe he put it there expecting you to follow or obey it?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 6th 2008, 03:23 PM
With regards to these scrptures: Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

If God has put his law/the ten commandments into our hearts, then what happened to Jesus?

And if God has put Jesus into our hearts, then what happened to the law?

What's in your heart?

Firstfruits

dispen4ever
Sep 7th 2008, 12:56 AM
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

2 Corinthians 3:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.


Once again, your question is based upon an attempt to merge scripture. The passages within the above quote are written to whom, or about whom? Read them again. Clearly, they draw a distinction between Jew and non-Jew.

Emanate
Sep 7th 2008, 04:31 AM
Once again, your question is based upon an attempt to merge scripture. The passages within the above quote are written to whom, or about whom? Read them again. Clearly, they draw a distinction between Jew and non-Jew.


The NT is quite clear, we are grafted into Israel. No longer strangers to the covenants (plural). One new man, no longer jew or gentile.

Firstfruits
Sep 7th 2008, 10:09 AM
Once again, your question is based upon an attempt to merge scripture. The passages within the above quote are written to whom, or about whom? Read them again. Clearly, they draw a distinction between Jew and non-Jew.

Let us therefore look at them separately.

According to what is written, what has God put in your heart?

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

With the understanding that the Spirit is Christ and that which is written on stone is the ten commandment. which of them has been abolished?

Which is therefore in you heart?

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Has that which is abolished been re-established?

Firstfruits

dispen4ever
Sep 7th 2008, 09:54 PM
You continue to misinterpret not only scripture, but my informative responses, as well. Your responses to what I offer are 180 degrees away from what I presented. If you'll study your Bible as I suggested previously, perhaps you'll get it. I have a Bible study program that I'll send to you for free if you promise to read every word, while comparing it to scripture. I hope that will clear up your fog.

:-)

dispen4ever
Sep 7th 2008, 09:58 PM
I agree. But being grafted in, or being one in Christ, has zilch to do with my posts concerning scripture written to Jews, non-Jews, Jewish Christians, Greeks, Hellenistic Jews, and so on. The audience is the key. Your responses to my posts miss the point completely. I toss you a football, you throw back a tennis ball, as if they were the same. Go figure.

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 06:48 AM
You continue to misinterpret not only scripture, but my informative responses, as well. Your responses to what I offer are 180 degrees away from what I presented. If you'll study your Bible as I suggested previously, perhaps you'll get it. I have a Bible study program that I'll send to you for free if you promise to read every word, while comparing it to scripture. I hope that will clear up your fog.

:-)

You say I am not looking at what you have given however as far as what is written the following scriptures apply to all wether Jew or Gentile, knowing that after the law came Jesus, and there has been no other offering for our hearts.

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

2 Corinthians 3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Where is the difference to what God has given?

Firstfruits

dispen4ever
Sep 8th 2008, 05:52 PM
With the understanding that the Spirit is Christ and that which is written on stone is the ten commandment which of them has been abolished?


"Abolished" is the wrong word. It doesn't fit.

The Ten Commandments, the Law, and the Prophets, are FULFILLED in Christ Jesus. He is them, to hack the English language. They weren't abolished in the mind of the Jewish leadership or in the minds of Jews today. They do not recognize that Jesus, as Messiah, FULFILLED everything they look to in the OT. They have NO applicability to the non-Jewish Believer, or the Jewish Believer, in Christ as Savior-Lord-Master-King. The Jews can continue these observances. Their far better option is to receive Jesus as Messiah, Savior-Lord-Master-King. Then they can put away old things, just as we authentically born-again Believers do.

dispen4ever
Sep 8th 2008, 05:56 PM
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;



This is both the offer to the Jews of that day, and to the Jews ministered to in the last half of the Tribulation, and to everyone in the coming 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 06:26 PM
"Abolished" is the wrong word. It doesn't fit.

The Ten Commandments, the Law, and the Prophets, are FULFILLED in Christ Jesus. He is them, to hack the English language. They weren't abolished in the mind of the Jewish leadership or in the minds of Jews today. They do not recognize that Jesus, as Messiah, FULFILLED everything they look to in the OT. They have NO applicability to the non-Jewish Believer, or the Jewish Believer, in Christ as Savior-Lord-Master-King. The Jews can continue these observances. Their far better option is to receive Jesus as Messiah, Savior-Lord-Master-King. Then they can put away old things, just as we authentically born-again Believers do.

Thanks Dispen4ever,

Although they were not abolished in the mind of the the Jewish leadership, but then how would they explain the following?

2 Cor 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Cor 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Cor 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Are their minds still blinded?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 06:31 PM
This is both the offer to the Jews of that day, and to the Jews ministered to in the last half of the Tribulation, and to everyone in the coming 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

What, may I ask is the offer since the Mosaic covenant was already in force, and Jesus is the only other offer and is not just for the Jews?

Firstfruits

dispen4ever
Sep 8th 2008, 08:12 PM
Yep, still blinded.

dispen4ever
Sep 8th 2008, 08:19 PM
The Mosaic Covenant in force was to be replaced by faith in Jesus, the Christ, as Messiah-Lord-Savior-Master-King. That was the offer. The offer was then, and is now, to everyone who will believe. How do we believe? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved. Newbies need to take a look at my oft-repeated references to John 14:6, John 3:16-17, Romans 10:8-13. Once they've understood the significance of that and have received Christ as Lord-Savior-Master-King, they can review the "Roman Road" for clarity about what they have just done, or they can review it first.

http://contenderministries.org/romanroad.php

Firstfruits
Sep 8th 2008, 08:23 PM
The Mosaic Covenant in force was to be replaced by faith in Jesus, the Christ, as Messiah-Lord-Savior-Master-King. That was the offer. The offer was then, and is now, to everyone who will believe. How do we believe? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved. Newbies need to take a look at my oft-repeated references to John 14:6, John 3:16-17, Romans 10:8-13. Once they've understood the significance of that and have received Christ as Lord-Savior-Master-King, they can review the "Roman Road" for clarity about what they have just done, or they can review it first.

http://contenderministries.org/romanroad.php

Dispen4ever,

Have we just agreed on something concerning Jesus and the Mosaic law?

Firstfruits

dispen4ever
Sep 10th 2008, 07:24 PM
Let the Heavens declare the glory of God! If we agree on this one, perhaps we were just talking past each other on the rest. Be blessed!

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 07:35 PM
Let the Heavens declare the glory of God! If we agree on this one, perhaps we were just talking past each other on the rest. Be blessed!

Thank you and God bless you.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 10th 2008, 07:51 PM
Let us therefore look at them separately.

According to what is written, what has God put in your heart?

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

With the understanding that the Spirit is Christ and that which is written on stone is the ten commandment. which of them has been abolished?

Which is therefore in you heart?

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Has that which is abolished been re-established?

Firstfruits

"Not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart"

"The letter killeth, but the Spirit maketh alive"

The Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone by the finger of God on the Day of Pentecost.

The Ten Commandments began to be written on human hearts by the Spirit of Christ on the day of Pentecost.

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish the Law." (Rom.3: 31).

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled." (Mat.5: 17-18).

The Law was fulfilled by Jesus, who said,

"Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled."

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish the Law." (Rom.3: 31).

So the Law is established by the Spirit of Christ:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So when we seek to obey the Law ourselves, we seek to fulfill a Law that has already been fulfilled by Jesus the Christ. But the Law , having been fulfiiled by Christ, is established by our faith in Him.

ananias.

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 08:14 PM
"Not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart"

"The letter killeth, but the Spirit maketh alive"

The Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone by the finger of God on the Day of Pentecost.

The Ten Commandments began to be written on human hearts by the Spirit of Christ on the day of Pentecost.

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish the Law." (Rom.3: 31).

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled." (Mat.5: 17-18).

The Law was fulfilled by Jesus, who said,

"Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled."

"Do we then make the Law void through faith? Let it not be! But we establish the Law." (Rom.3: 31).

So the Law is established by the Spirit of Christ:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So when we seek to obey the Law ourselves, we seek to fulfill a Law that has already been fulfilled by Jesus the Christ. But the Law , having been fulfiiled by Christ, is established by our faith in Him.

ananias.

According to the following who is the spirit that God has put into our hearts?

2 Cor 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Cor 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Cor 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It does not say that the spirit is the ten commandments, but Jesus.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 10th 2008, 08:27 PM
According to the following who is the spirit that God has put into our hearts?

2 Cor 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Cor 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Cor 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It does not say that the spirit is the ten commandments, but Jesus.

Firstfruits

Answered in the other thread. This dual-thread business has me jumping around all over the place!

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 08:34 PM
Answered in the other thread. This dual-thread business has me jumping around all over the place!

ananias

Well you did point out the scripture in both therefore the same answer.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 08:36 PM
Yep, still blinded.

For most of us, our rabbi is Yeshua, not the writings of men or replacement theology arrogance.

Be blessed.

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 08:44 PM
According to the following who is the spirit that God has put into our hearts?

2 Cor 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Cor 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Cor 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It does not say that the spirit is the ten commandments, but Jesus.

Firstfruits

Think about it this way. We establish the 'law' when we clearly understand we need a Saviour. We can only accept the pardon when we realize we are unrighteous sinners by our own efforts. That's the intent of Torah. You're right, God hasn't changed anything, but He changes us if our hearts aren't hardened. When we admit our unrighteousness to stand before God, declare ourselves guilty - then we are positioned to accept God's pardon through Yeshua. That is how we 'establish Torah'. By admission of guilt and need for a Saviour. That is Torah established, because it had it's intended result.

Firstfruits
Sep 10th 2008, 08:47 PM
Think about it this way. We establish the 'law' when we clearly understand we need a Saviour. We can only accept the pardon when we realize we are unrighteous sinners by our own efforts. That's the intent of Torah. You're right, God hasn't changed anything, but He changes us if our hearts aren't hardened. When we admit our unrighteousness to stand before God, declare ourselves guilty - then we are positioned to accept God's pardon through Yeshua. That is how we 'establish Torah'. By admission of guilt and need for a Saviour. That is Torah established, because it had it's intended result.

Since it is Jesus and not the law in our hearts, should we not be establishing Jesus as did the apostles?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 08:54 PM
Jesus' authority over the 'Law' is established when we accept His pardon. That's why unbelieving Jews can not establish Torah, but vainly attempt to follow it's precepts. mostly by following rabbinical teachings and rulings.

In fact, there are so many man-made fences and walls around God's Torah, the focus for most Jews isn't even the biblically written Torah. All most can see is the wall.

For example, the rabbis say 'you can not light a fire on Shabbat'. So they hang out on the Synagogue steps after the readings and get Goyim to light their cigarettes. Religious craziness isn't only a Christian struggle, you know..

Firstfruits
Sep 11th 2008, 07:11 AM
Jesus' authority over the 'Law' is established when we accept His pardon. That's why unbelieving Jews can not establish Torah, but vainly attempt to follow it's precepts. mostly by following rabbinical teachings and rulings.

In fact, there are so many man-made fences and walls around God's Torah, the focus for most Jews isn't even the biblically written Torah. All most can see is the wall.

For example, the rabbis say 'you can not light a fire on Shabbat'. So they hang out on the Synagogue steps after the readings and get Goyim to light their cigarettes. Religious craziness isn't only a Christian struggle, you know..

Are you saying then that if we are dead in Christ we are not obligated to the law?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 11th 2008, 06:17 PM
It does not say that the spirit is the ten commandments, but Jesus.

Firstfruits


Exactly how do you take Jesus apart from the very Word He is? Did Jesus ever once teach against the Written Law (which he spoke and is) Deuteronomy is the English translation from the Greek of the Hebrew D'varim which means Words. Did Jesus not speak the very Word that He is? How do we separate the Spirit from the Word?

Firstfruits
Sep 11th 2008, 07:22 PM
Exactly how do you take Jesus apart from the very Word He is? Did Jesus ever once teach against the Written Law (which he spoke and is) Deuteronomy is the English translation from the Greek of the Hebrew D'varim which means Words. Did Jesus not speak the very Word that He is? How do we separate the Spirit from the Word?

Jesus taught according to the Law but as he told his apostles he taught the things in the law concerning himself, which is what he fulfilled?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 11th 2008, 08:12 PM
That would be all the prophecies that point to Him, including the intent of Torah.

keck553
Sep 11th 2008, 08:14 PM
Are you saying then that if we are dead in Christ we are not obligated to the law?

Firstfruits

Jesus has authority over the 'law', therefore you are answerable to Him. It's your choice whether to be obligated to Him or not.

Emanate
Sep 11th 2008, 08:22 PM
Jesus taught according to the Law but as he told his apostles he taught the things in the law concerning himself, which is what he fulfilled?

Firstfruits


I heard somewhere that the volume of the book was about him. I also read somewhere that he Was the D'var become flesh.

keck553
Sep 11th 2008, 08:26 PM
I heard somewhere that the volume of the book was about him. I also read somewhere that he Was the D'var become flesh.

John 1 of course! Yes, the book of D'varim (Words) aka Deuteronomy. Those who slay the written D'varim slay the living D'varim.

Toymom
Sep 12th 2008, 12:12 AM
I do not have a "what" in my heart. I have a "who" and He is Christ. He is the living law who is written in our hearts.

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 09:11 AM
I heard somewhere that the volume of the book was about him. I also read somewhere that he Was the D'var become flesh.

Heb 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

So it really is Jesus we should be concerned with.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 09:17 AM
Jesus has authority over the 'law', therefore you are answerable to Him. It's your choice whether to be obligated to Him or not.

If we therefore follow the doctrine of the apostles as the were commanded by Christ then we are on the right path, is that correct?

1 Cor 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 12th 2008, 10:11 AM
Jesus has authority over the 'law', therefore you are answerable to Him. It's your choice whether to be obligated to Him or not.

Exactly. And Jesus also fulfilled the Law both through perfect obedience to the Law and through fulfilling the types and shadows contained in the Law which pointed to Him.

Just as we who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and Life, so God only sees two human beings - the first Adam and the last Adam. The first Adam's disobedience brought death to all, the last Adam's obedience brought life to all - all those who are IN HIM through repentance and faith in Hiim have obeyed the Law IN HIM, we are clothed with HIS righteouness - AND HE HAS ALREADY OBEYED THE LAW ON OUR BEHALF AND DIED ON OUR BEHALF FOR THE BROKEN LAW - WE NO LONGER NEED TO SEEK TO OBEY THE LAW, BUT TO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO OBEYED THE LAW, AND WE SHALL BVE SAVED FROM THE POWER OF SIN WHICH CAUSES US TO TRASNGRESS THE LAW.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 10:25 AM
Exactly. And Jesus also fulfilled the Law both through perfect obedience to the Law and through fulfilling the types and shadows contained in the Law which pointed to Him.

Just as we who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and Life, so God only sees two human beings - the first Adam and the last Adam. The first Adam's disobedience brought death to all, the last Adam's obedience brought life to all - all those who are IN HIM through repentance and faith in Hiim have obeyed the Law IN HIM, we are clothed with HIS righteouness - AND HE HAS ALREADY OBEYED THE LAW ON OUR BEHALF AND DIED ON OUR BEHALF FOR THE BROKEN LAW - WE NO LONGER NEED TO SEEK TO OBEY THE LAW, BUT TO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO OBEYED THE LAW, AND WE SHALL BVE SAVED FROM THE POWER OF SIN WHICH CAUSES US TO TRASNGRESS THE LAW.

ananias

So we no longer seek to obey the law, but to obey Jesus, according to what he has commanded which is to love one another, is that right?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 12th 2008, 10:34 AM
So we no longer seek to obey the law, but to obey Jesus, according to what he has commanded which is to love one another, is that right?

Firstfruits

Yes, that is right.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 10:48 AM
Yes, that is right.

ananias

Knowing therefore that Christ is the New covenant, which of Gods other covenants are still in effect?

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 12th 2008, 11:10 AM
Knowing therefore that Christ is the New covenant, which of Gods other covenants are still in effect?

Firstfruits

All of them except the covenant which God have to Israel through Moses/

ananias

Emanate
Sep 12th 2008, 12:00 PM
Heb 10:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

So it really is Jesus we should be concerned with.
Firstfruits


Yes, that is the point of Torah.

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 12:07 PM
All of them except the covenant which God have to Israel through Moses/

ananias

So the following covenant is no longer in effect?

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 4:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

Deut 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deut 5:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Firstfruits

ananias
Sep 12th 2008, 12:55 PM
So the following covenant is no longer in effect?

Deut 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 4:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

Deut 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deut 5:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Firstfruits

It's no longer in effect - BUT sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments, and as Paul said,

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!" (Rom.6: 15).

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 01:04 PM
It's no longer in effect - BUT sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments, and as Paul said,

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!" (Rom.6: 15).

ananias

Would it be wrong to say that sin is a transgression of Christs commandment to love on another?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 12th 2008, 02:06 PM
Would it be worng to say that sin is a transgression of Christs commandment to love on another?

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits



The Law has always been about Love, ALWAYS.

ananias
Sep 12th 2008, 02:21 PM
Would it be worng to say that sin is a transgression of Christs commandment to love on another?


Firstfruits



No, it wouldn't be wrong at all.

ananias

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 02:28 PM
The Law has always been about Love, ALWAYS.

However the law of Moses is not the same as the law of Christ is it?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 02:33 PM
No, it wouldn't be wrong at all.

ananias

If then someone asks would you kill or steal, because you are not under the law, according to the law of Christ We would not as it would transgress the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 12th 2008, 03:40 PM
However the law of Moses is not the same as the law of Christ is it?

Firstfruits


No, the Law of Christ has a wider scope than the Mosaic Law. The Law of Messiah, is based, in part, on the Mosaic Law.

keck553
Sep 12th 2008, 04:08 PM
If then someone asks would you kill or steal, because you are not under the law, according to the law of Christ We would not as it would transgress the law of Christ.

Firstfruits

What law would be transgressed if someone married his sister? The law of Moses or the Law of Christ?

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 06:29 PM
No, the Law of Christ has a wider scope than the Mosaic Law. The Law of Messiah, is based, in part, on the Mosaic Law.

And also easier to fulfil.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 12th 2008, 06:32 PM
What law would be transgressed if someone married his sister? The law of Moses or the Law of Christ?

What does the law of Christ not cover with regards to the following?

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 13th 2008, 11:13 PM
What does the law of Christ not cover with regards to the following?

Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Firstfruits

Answer the question. Where does the commandment come from?

Firstfruits
Sep 14th 2008, 10:32 AM
Answer the question. Where does the commandment come from?

God gave the law/commandments to Israel, my question is, does the commandment of Christ for us to love one another not cover what is written in Gods law? If it does not cover as it is written; Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. then does that mean that Christ has less authority than Moses?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Sep 15th 2008, 07:15 PM
It is said that the new covenant is the law being put into our heart, if so can anyone explain why Gods law that was already in the heart and disobeyed should again be put into our heart with the same outcome, disobedience?

Deut 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

Ps 119:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=119&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Ps 37:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=37&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

What therefore is the New covenant that God has put into our hearts?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 15th 2008, 09:25 PM
God gave the law/commandments to Israel, my question is, does the commandment of Christ for us to love one another not cover what is written in Gods law? If it does not cover as it is written; Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. then does that mean that Christ has less authority than Moses?

Firstfruits

All authority has been handed to Yeshua, including the authority of Torah.

You still haven't answered the man marrying his sister question. Loving your neighbor does not cover that. Where in the Bible does God give the instruction for a man not to marry his sister?

RoadWarrior
Sep 15th 2008, 11:06 PM
All authority has been handed to Yeshua, including the authority of Torah.

You still haven't answered the man marrying his sister question. Loving your neighbor does not cover that. Where in the Bible does God give the instruction for a man not to marry his sister?

Try Leviticus 18.

keck553
Sep 15th 2008, 11:13 PM
Try Leviticus 18.

So Torah is not obsolete? Amen.

RoadWarrior
Sep 15th 2008, 11:27 PM
So Torah is not obsolete? Amen.

Obsolete ... what does that mean to you? If it were obsolete, why would we still have it as part of our Bible? Perhaps that is a better question.

Why do we still read and study Torah, Tanakh? Why do we cross-reference quotes in the NT to the OT?

There is always a relationship of the branches of a tree, to the trunk and the roots. I think the disagreements in these threads come from a lack of understanding of that relationship.

Lord grant us wisdom and understanding, ...

Eph 4:13-16
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head Christ 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
NKJV

Firstfruits
Sep 16th 2008, 06:45 AM
All authority has been handed to Yeshua, including the authority of Torah.

You still haven't answered the man marrying his sister question. Loving your neighbor does not cover that. Where in the Bible does God give the instruction for a man not to marry his sister?

From the following you can see that I answered your question, I did not know you wanted the scripture, as I had already said it was from God.

Originally Posted by keck553 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1787070#post1787070)
Answer the question. Where does the commandment come from?
God gave the law/commandments to Israel, my question is, does the commandment of Christ for us to love one another not cover what is written in Gods law? If it does not cover as it is written; Rom 13:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. then does that mean that Christ has less authority than Moses?

Now I say this to you; Rom 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Firstfruits

pastor_john
Sep 16th 2008, 09:25 AM
You say I am not looking at what you have given however as far as what is written the following scriptures apply to all wether Jew or Gentile, knowing that after the law came Jesus, and there has been no other offering for our hearts.

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

2 Corinthians 3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Where is the difference to what God has given?

Firstfruits

What is in my heart? A very good question!

The Bible says: the LORD will write His laws in our hearts and put them within our minds, and all of us, from the least to the greatest, will know the LORD (Heb8:10-11). When the law is written in our hearts, we will pass through the curtain of the temple, that is, the body of Jesus (Heb10:16-20), for Christ is the end of the law (Rom10:4).

I am also reminded: Christ is ministered by Paul, for what Paul speaks is the law (Ac24:14), and the law is spiritual (Rom7:14). The law is the word from the mouth of GOD (Ps119:72, Jer9:12-13). And the word from the mouth of GOD is Spirit (Jn6:62-63), so it can also be said Paul writes the Spirit of the living GOD on tablets of human hearts (2Co3:3).

Therefore, the Bible says: guard your heart above everything, or keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life (Pr4:23). The LORD is the fountain of living water (Jer17:13). Now the LORD has opened one fountain (Zach13:1). When the living water comes out of Jerusalem, one half will flow into the east sea, and the other into the west sea (Zach14:8). Jesus said: those who believe in him, streams of living water will flow out of their belly (Jn7:37-39), for the water Jesus gives will become a fountain welling up within until eternal life (Jn4:14).

This is my answer to your question for the time being, before reading your post. Thanks for your having started such a topic. Blessings to all!

Firstfruits
Sep 16th 2008, 11:11 AM
What is in my heart? A very good question!

The Bible says: the LORD will write His laws in our hearts and put them within our minds, and all of us, from the least to the greatest, will know the LORD (Heb8:10-11). When the law is written in our hearts, we will pass through the curtain of the temple, that is, the body of Jesus (Heb10:16-20), for Christ is the end of the law (Rom10:4).

I am also reminded: Christ is ministered by Paul, for what Paul speaks is the law (Ac24:14), and the law is spiritual (Rom7:14). The law is the word from the mouth of GOD (Ps119:72, Jer9:12-13). And the word from the mouth of GOD is Spirit (Jn6:62-63), so it can also be said Paul writes the Spirit of the living GOD on tablets of human hearts (2Co3:3).

Therefore, the Bible says: guard your heart above everything, or keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life (Pr4:23). The LORD is the fountain of living water (Jer17:13). Now the LORD has opened one fountain (Zach13:1). When the living water comes out of Jerusalem, one half will flow into the east sea, and the other into the west sea (Zach14:8). Jesus said: those who believe in him, streams of living water will flow out of their belly (Jn7:37-39), for the water Jesus gives will become a fountain welling up within until eternal life (Jn4:14).

This is my answer to your question for the time being, before reading your post. Thanks for your having started such a topic. Blessings to all!

Thank you Pastor John,

So what therefore did Paul minister according to the following?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Is it therfore Christ that is in our hearts?

Firstfruits

pastor_john
Sep 16th 2008, 02:16 PM
Thank you Pastor John,

So what therefore did Paul minister according to the following?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Is it therfore Christ that is in our hearts?

Firstfruits

I am reminded of Ac17:2-3: Paul was speaking from the Scriptures, saying "this Jesus I am proclaiming to you is Christ." and Ac18:28: he refuted the Jews publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

Firstfruits
Sep 16th 2008, 02:34 PM
I am reminded of Ac17:2-3: Paul was speaking from the Scriptures, saying "this Jesus I am proclaiming to you is Christ." and Ac18:28: he refuted the Jews publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

Why then is there such a problem if we follow Paul as he followed Christ?

1 Cor 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 16th 2008, 04:04 PM
Why then is there such a problem if we follow Paul as he followed Christ?

1 Cor 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Firstfruits

And exactly how did Paul follow Yeshua? If you do what Paul did, you would be observing all the feasts, and resting on Shabbat.

Firstfruits
Sep 16th 2008, 06:35 PM
And exactly how did Paul follow Yeshua? If you do what Paul did, you would be observing all the feasts, and resting on Shabbat.

According to what Paul said in the following, why do you believe that Paul taught observance to the feasts and Shabbat?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Do you have scripture to say otherwise?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 16th 2008, 10:22 PM
According to what Paul said in the following, why do you believe that Paul taught observance to the feasts and Shabbat?

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and That he should be the first That should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Do you have scripture to say otherwise?

Firstfruits

It is futile to base practice on two scriptures.

Firstfruits
Sep 17th 2008, 06:58 AM
It is futile to base practice on two scriptures.

As I asked before do you have scripture to state otherwise?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Lk 1:77 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Lk 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The message was all about Christ.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Sep 17th 2008, 01:01 PM
As I asked before do you have scripture to state otherwise?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Lk 1:77 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Lk 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The message was all about Christ.

Firstfruits


As is all of Torah

Firstfruits
Sep 17th 2008, 01:26 PM
As is all of Torah

Is the whole Torah all about Christ, all 613 commandmets?

Firstfruits

pastor_john
Sep 17th 2008, 01:46 PM
Is the whole Torah all about Christ, all 613 commandmets?

Firstfruits

Christ is the end or the total of the law (Rom10:4). The words of the LORD spoken by the prophets are the law (Dan9:9-10,2Ki17:13), and the letters of Paul are also the law (Ac24:14). The whole Bible is a book of the law. So, more than the whole Torah.
Blessings!
Pastor John

Firstfruits
Sep 17th 2008, 01:55 PM
Christ is the end or the total of the law (Rom10:4). The words of the LORD spoken by the prophets are the law (Dan9:9-10,2Ki17:13), and the letters of Paul are also the law (Ac24:14). The whole Bible is a book of the law. So, more than the whole Torah.
Blessings!
Pastor John

But is everything in the Torah concerning Jesus, with regards to what Jesus told the apostles?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Why would what Paul preached be considered heresy because he preached only those things concerning Jesus?

Acts 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Why is there a problem?

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 17th 2008, 06:51 PM
But is everything in the Torah concerning Jesus, with regards to what Jesus told the apostles?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Why would what Paul preached be considered heresy because he preached only those things concerning Jesus?

Acts 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 26:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Why is there a problem?

Firstfruits

What problem are you referring to?

by the way, thank you for being patient wiith me. I've learned something really cool through all these arguments and debates, how about you?

Firstfruits
Sep 17th 2008, 07:23 PM
What problem are you referring to?

by the way, thank you for being patient wiith me. I've learned something really cool through all these arguments and debates, how about you?

I was just going to post my thanks to all are taking part and have been patient with me, but you have beaten me to it. Well thanks to all.

The problem I was referring to is that even though the apostles we teaching according to the law and the prophets as was as God said it would be, the Priests and those in authority could not accept what they knew to be true, if they truly knew the scriptures as they should.

This problem still exists today Jesus is the problem, Jesus is the stumbling block.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 17th 2008, 09:31 PM
I was just going to post my thanks to all are taking part and have been patient with me, but you have beaten me to it. Well thanks to all.

The problem I was referring to is that even though the apostles we teaching according to the law and the prophets as was as God said it would be, the Priests and those in authority could not accept what they knew to be true, if they truly knew the scriptures as they should.

This problem still exists today Jesus is the problem, Jesus is the stumbling block.

Firstfruits

Well yeah. I think it's Luke that tells us a lot of Priests were coming to Jesus. The problem is that the precepts of man are here and in our face, while the precepts of God we accept in trust. Plus, imagine the fear of losing a relatively decent status in a foreign occupied land because you followed Jesus. While most of us would say "no brainer" first imagine someone holding a knife at your child's throat, poised for you to confess your faith in an unpopular 'rabble-rouser'.

I mean Herod knew who He was when He was around 2 years old, or he wouldn't have tried to kill Him. Think about that logic - Harod knew He was the Messiah and thought his days were numbered because of the threat, so he tried to kill Him? Makes no sense, if you believe God can raise a Messiah, surely you should believe in His sucess....

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 06:34 AM
Well yeah. I think it's Luke that tells us a lot of Priests were coming to Jesus. The problem is that the precepts of man are here and in our face, while the precepts of God we accept in trust. Plus, imagine the fear of losing a relatively decent status in a foreign occupied land because you followed Jesus. While most of us would say "no brainer" first imagine someone holding a knife at your child's throat, poised for you to confess your faith in an unpopular 'rabble-rouser'.

I mean Herod knew who He was when He was around 2 years old, or he wouldn't have tried to kill Him. Think about that logic - Harod knew He was the Messiah and thought his days were numbered because of the threat, so he tried to kill Him? Makes no sense, if you believe God can raise a Messiah, surely you should believe in His sucess....

Thanks Keck553,

That problem will continue until the end, as long as Jesus is preached as it was preached then.

Firstfruits

keck553
Sep 18th 2008, 07:33 PM
Thanks Keck553,

That problem will continue until the end, as long as Jesus is preached as it was preached then.

Firstfruits

Yeah, but won't it be cool on the other side of that!

Firstfruits
Sep 18th 2008, 07:52 PM
Yeah, but won't it be cool on the other side of that!

Absolutely, amen to that!!!!!!

God bless you.

Firstfruits