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new4christ
Sep 6th 2008, 12:49 PM
Please help! I began attending a Oneness Pentecostal church a while back and recently found it is one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.
I began going with a friend that was going to it for 20 years. I had been to Trinitarian churches in the past but really never had much to do with church, but felt I needed to go. Well, silly me didn't check much into what they believed and the services were amazing, the worship looked so sincere and the people were so nice, so I loved it. Eventually I did speak with tongues (though I wasn't so sure what was going on) and I felt so free to finally have the holy ghost! I decided that it must be true. I was later baptized in "Jesus name" as they say. I always had this weird feeling in the back of my mind that I kept having.

Well, recently, within the last few months, I began doing research on different religion sects: JW's, Mormons, etc. I was shocked to see that the United Pentecostal Church was called a cult. Well, I said, "cult doesn't really mean anything. It's the one true church." Not so.
The more I listened to the sermons in church, the weirder it got. One day I heard them deny the trinity. I also noted that there were not all that many members in the church and why it was so small if it was so good. There also seemed to be no financial accountability. There were business meetings, but we pretty much have to work for everything we got.
The final straw was recently when the preacher finally said that it matters which church you go to, how you're baptized, you must speak in tongues and called the other churches false. Hello?!

I debated with myself with what I had found on the internet for weeks and months. Now, I finally decided to accept what I had read on the internet about the truth of the trinity and other false claims of the Oneness Pentecostals. I also do not believe that one needs to speak in tongues to be saved. I felt so dumb when I began to read the Bible with an open mind and not the "oneness filter" and began to see that the doctrines of oneness, tongues, etc were simply heresy from some people that thought them up less that 100 years ago!

Another thing that bothered me is in the worship services they always say "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I love you my God." I don't know if they are saved, I think it's possible many of them may be, but this Jesus that they speak of is not the real Jesus. When you have the real Jesus you will be able to worship him and the Father equally, in spirit and truth.

Since I have looked at it with an open mind and let the word speak to me I have become so much happier. I knew we couldn't be the only ones saved and I always wondered why so many in the church didn't seem truly happy, while I saw Baptists and all others (that supposedly weren't saved) so happy and full of love. I have been reading "The Purpose Driven Life" and had to smile when it said that "Day 24, Transformed By Truth. Spiritual growth is the process of replacing lies with truth." The truth shall set you free!

I am having trouble deciding what to do now. I have been praying for others in the church to seek and see the truth about Christ. There are a few people who have been coming very recently that I have known for years and one of them even said that they felt they had the Holy Ghost yet didn't speak in tongues. The other friend that I first met in the church said, "No, you have to speak in tongues."

Something else I have noticed is that if you have met one Oneness Pentecostal, you have met them all. They all look the same in dress, talk the same, think the same and alot act the same. The religion is the center of their life. The churches have also been the same, and though mine wasn't so bad, there are some that are very controlling and I have met many prideful oneness preachers that were not very nice and so full of themselves.

I am planning to do a Bible study today with one of these newer people and see how they respond. I'm hoping they will agree with what I present, as they seem to have some doubts already, but were planning to be baptized.

I also have to figure out what to do with my other friend that has been attending this church for 24 years and her husband. I have heard that when you leave the oneness church, the members will shun you, but I will be seeing several of them from day to day anyway, so maybe I have a chance.

What are some good verses and tips to use in witnessing? I already have two pages of verses to go over. I also have an acquaintance that my friend that brought me to this church told me about. He told me that he had been attending another oneness church and was thinking of getting into ministry, but suddenly left. I think it may be a good idea to contact this guy. It sounds like he may have experienced what I did.
Regardless of how this goes, I am so excited and cannot wait to see what happens. I feel like the Lord is leading me to take action to show these people the truth and that they will follow. I know he will not abandon his sheep. I am not giving up on God!!
Please pray for me and us!

Sold Out
Sep 6th 2008, 03:49 PM
Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word 'God' is the Hebrew word 'Elohim', which is PLURAL. The verse could correctly read, "In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth."

This hebrew word Elohim is used over 2500 times in the Old Testament and is ALWAYS used with a singular verb. God was making a statement! He is plural!

Genesis 1:26, "Then God (Elohim) said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

They will undoubtedly quote you Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

This word 'one' in hebrew is 'echad', which is also used in Genesis 2:24 where God says a man will leave his father and mother and become ONE flesh with his wife. The same word 'echad' is used for one. Obviously a husband and wife do not become one person...it is figurative.

The main problems with UPC church is that they deny the trinity, salvation by grace alone, and baptismal regeneration. They do not worship the same Jesus. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and TRUTH. They do not worship Jesus in truth. These are not saved folks.

John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

The trinity is fully expressed in this verse. Jesus says HE will pray to the FATHER to send the HOLY SPIRIT (comforter). Also the word 'another' is the greek word 'allos', which means 'another of the same kind'.

cdo
Sep 6th 2008, 05:55 PM
I'm sorry I cannot help you at this time.I live in a small town and there's alot that I'm not aware of.So this has been a 'shock to me' however,continue to let God lead your path.I believe your doing the right thing.It's amazing how God opens our eyes to these false teaching and twisting them as to me the right part of God's word. One thing is 'speaking in tongue's' is one of the gifts from God as in teaching, preaching and etc.It has nothing to do with us being saved.As to speak in tongue's.I'll get some more info for you.Pray,be strong in our Lord and be bold.I'll be :pray::pray:ing for you and them.God will bless you for this work you are doing !!!:hug:,Darlene

MidnightsPaleGlow
Sep 7th 2008, 02:45 AM
Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word 'God' is the Hebrew word 'Elohim', which is PLURAL. The verse could correctly read, "In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth."

This hebrew word Elohim is used over 2500 times in the Old Testament and is ALWAYS used with a singular verb. God was making a statement! He is plural!

Genesis 1:26, "Then God (Elohim) said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

They will undoubtedly quote you Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

This word 'one' in hebrew is 'echad', which is also used in Genesis 2:24 where God says a man will leave his father and mother and become ONE flesh with his wife. The same word 'echad' is used for one. Obviously a husband and wife do not become one person...it is figurative.

The main problems with UPC church is that they deny the trinity, salvation by grace alone, and baptismal regeneration. They do not worship the same Jesus. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and TRUTH. They do not worship Jesus in truth. These are not saved folks.

John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

The trinity is fully expressed in this verse. Jesus says HE will pray to the FATHER to send the HOLY SPIRIT (comforter). Also the word 'another' is the greek word 'allos', which means 'another of the same kind'.

What about Matt. 3:16-17 and its parallel verses, Mark 1:9-11/Luke 3:21-22? A historic moment, the Baptism of Christ. It was a historic moment in two senses:

1) It marked the start of Jesus' Messianic ministry.
2) [This simple fact is very important when dealing with Oneness people] ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD revealed themselves simultaneously.

Those verses quite clearly demonstrate that God is, in fact, triune. So does 1 John 5:7 (at least in the KJV it does). You can even throw in Matt. 28:19 for good measure as well, as showing that we are supposed to baptize using that formula.

Sold Out
Sep 7th 2008, 10:35 PM
What about Matt. 3:16-17 and its parallel verses, Mark 1:9-11/Luke 3:21-22? A historic moment, the Baptism of Christ. It was a historic moment in two senses:

1) It marked the start of Jesus' Messianic ministry.
2) [This simple fact is very important when dealing with Oneness people] ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD revealed themselves simultaneously.

Those verses quite clearly demonstrate that God is, in fact, triune. So does 1 John 5:7 (at least in the KJV it does). You can even throw in Matt. 28:19 for good measure as well, as showing that we are supposed to baptize using that formula.

Absolutely! Those are great to add to the list!

dispen4ever
Sep 7th 2008, 10:47 PM
Speak softly, don't carry a big stick :-)

Pray before you speak. You can do that with every word that comes out of your mouth! Just preface it with "Jesus!" or "Your Word!" or "Truth!". God knows what you are asking for. Memorize John 14:6, John 3:16-17, Romans 10:8-13, the "Roman Road" to salvation in the Book of Romans.

I read a commentary YEARS ago which said that there were over 700 references to the Trinity in the OT without using that word. It also said that there were 53 in the NT --- but they were still counting in the latter case.

Be cautious, be blessed! Whistle a happy tune!

scourge39
Sep 7th 2008, 11:34 PM
Gregory A. Boyd's book, Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, is the best and only resource available that gives a thorough treatment of the subject. Boyd, being a former Oneness Pentecostal himself, really understands the mindset of Oneness Pentecostals. It's useful to look at the movement and its core teachings from the perspective of one who was once part of it rather than purely from outsiders. That will help you understand the perspective better and lead to more profitable witnessing.

dispen4ever
Sep 8th 2008, 08:23 PM
Excellent post S39 your post #7.

Sold Out
Sep 8th 2008, 11:28 PM
Gregory A. Boyd's book, Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, is the best and only resource available that gives a thorough treatment of the subject. Boyd, being a former Oneness Pentecostal himself, really understands the mindset of Oneness Pentecostals. It's useful to look at the movement and its core teachings from the perspective of one who was once part of it rather than purely from outsiders. That will help you understand the perspective better and lead to more profitable witnessing.

I had no idea that Gregory Boyd was a former Oneness Pentecostal!

scourge39
Sep 9th 2008, 12:52 AM
I had no idea that Gregory Boyd was a former Oneness Pentecostal!

Well, now you know ;) I know he's into open theism now, but the book I recommended has nothing to do with that. No one has written a better book against Oneness Pentecostalism, trust me. 'Phenomenal' is the best word to describe it.

Oregongrown
Sep 9th 2008, 12:58 AM
I love to learn and just appreciated this very much:) Again, the Holy Spirit is my helper so Im getting the thumbs up from Him. I have believed since the beginning in the Trinity:) It got a little harder when someone told me that word isn't in the bible but the words that mean the same 'are" there:) God bless your evening, your sister in Christ, denise



Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word 'God' is the Hebrew word 'Elohim', which is PLURAL. The verse could correctly read, "In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth."

This hebrew word Elohim is used over 2500 times in the Old Testament and is ALWAYS used with a singular verb. God was making a statement! He is plural!

Genesis 1:26, "Then God (Elohim) said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

They will undoubtedly quote you Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

This word 'one' in hebrew is 'echad', which is also used in Genesis 2:24 where God says a man will leave his father and mother and become ONE flesh with his wife. The same word 'echad' is used for one. Obviously a husband and wife do not become one person...it is figurative.

The main problems with UPC church is that they deny the trinity, salvation by grace alone, and baptismal regeneration. They do not worship the same Jesus. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and TRUTH. They do not worship Jesus in truth. These are not saved folks.

John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

The trinity is fully expressed in this verse. Jesus says HE will pray to the FATHER to send the HOLY SPIRIT (comforter). Also the word 'another' is the greek word 'allos', which means 'another of the same kind'.

BattleStance
Sep 11th 2008, 10:55 PM
Please help! I began attending a Oneness Pentecostal church a while back and recently found it is one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.
I began going with a friend that was going to it for 20 years. I had been to Trinitarian churches in the past but really never had much to do with church, but felt I needed to go. Well, silly me didn't check much into what they believed and the services were amazing, the worship looked so sincere and the people were so nice, so I loved it. Eventually I did speak with tongues (though I wasn't so sure what was going on) and I felt so free to finally have the holy ghost! I decided that it must be true. I was later baptized in "Jesus name" as they say. I always had this weird feeling in the back of my mind that I kept having.

Well, recently, within the last few months, I began doing research on different religion sects: JW's, Mormons, etc. I was shocked to see that the United Pentecostal Church was called a cult. Well, I said, "cult doesn't really mean anything. It's the one true church." Not so.

The more I listened to the sermons in church, the weirder it got. One day I heard them deny the trinity. I also noted that there were not all that many members in the church and why it was so small if it was so good. There also seemed to be no financial accountability. There were business meetings, but we pretty much have to work for everything we got.
The final straw was recently when the preacher finally said that it matters which church you go to, how you're baptized, you must speak in tongues and called the other churches false. Hello?!

I debated with myself with what I had found on the internet for weeks and months. Now, I finally decided to accept what I had read on the internet about the truth of the trinity and other false claims of the Oneness Pentecostals. I also do not believe that one needs to speak in tongues to be saved. I felt so dumb when I began to read the Bible with an open mind and not the "oneness filter" and began to see that the doctrines of oneness, tongues, etc were simply heresy from some people that thought them up less that 100 years ago!

Another thing that bothered me is in the worship services they always say "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I love you my God." I don't know if they are saved, I think it's possible many of them may be, but this Jesus that they speak of is not the real Jesus. When you have the real Jesus you will be able to worship him and the Father equally, in spirit and truth.

Since I have looked at it with an open mind and let the word speak to me I have become so much happier. I knew we couldn't be the only ones saved and I always wondered why so many in the church didn't seem truly happy, while I saw Baptists and all others (that supposedly weren't saved) so happy and full of love. I have been reading "The Purpose Driven Life" and had to smile when it said that "Day 24, Transformed By Truth. Spiritual growth is the process of replacing lies with truth." The truth shall set you free!

I am having trouble deciding what to do now. I have been praying for others in the church to seek and see the truth about Christ. There are a few people who have been coming very recently that I have known for years and one of them even said that they felt they had the Holy Ghost yet didn't speak in tongues. The other friend that I first met in the church said, "No, you have to speak in tongues."

Something else I have noticed is that if you have met one Oneness Pentecostal, you have met them all. They all look the same in dress, talk the same, think the same and alot act the same. The religion is the center of their life. The churches have also been the same, and though mine wasn't so bad, there are some that are very controlling and I have met many prideful oneness preachers that were not very nice and so full of themselves.

I am planning to do a Bible study today with one of these newer people and see how they respond. I'm hoping they will agree with what I present, as they seem to have some doubts already, but were planning to be baptized.

I also have to figure out what to do with my other friend that has been attending this church for 24 years and her husband. I have heard that when you leave the oneness church, the members will shun you, but I will be seeing several of them from day to day anyway, so maybe I have a chance.

What are some good verses and tips to use in witnessing? I already have two pages of verses to go over. I also have an acquaintance that my friend that brought me to this church told me about. He told me that he had been attending another oneness church and was thinking of getting into ministry, but suddenly left. I think it may be a good idea to contact this guy. It sounds like he may have experienced what I did.
Regardless of how this goes, I am so excited and cannot wait to see what happens. I feel like the Lord is leading me to take action to show these people the truth and that they will follow. I know he will not abandon his sheep. I am not giving up on God!!
Please pray for me and us!


The apostles spoke in tongues, Im not saying I agree with their church because I dont know what they do, havent been there. But remember that when Jesus was on this earth he was not popular at all, he wasnt even pretty to look at as the bible says. Remember that people wanted to kill him all the time, so when they say that church is a cult then just think, If they are speaking against false doctrine and speaking against what isnt bible and speaking against things that are popular to believe, then of course people are gonna speak lies against them, just like the lies that were spoken against Jesus and the apostles in the bible. The devil will always fight the truth.

One again Im not saying the pentecostle church you are going to is right, because in every denomination there are churches that are wrong. Even in non denominational churches there is churches that are false.

For me I'm non denominational, If I had to explain to you what my beleifs are it would be pentecostle, but I dont beleive in denomination, so Im not pentecostle in the form of denomination, Im pentecostle in the form of belief, as far as I believe in the holy spirit, and things such as Apostles,prophets,teachers, I beleive in all the gifts of the holy spirit as far as what's in the bible. I believe that there is one God operating in three offices[ Jesus is God], I dont beleive in the trinity and all the three God business.

Just remember that this world is gonna fight the truth, that's why you will see in these other religeons you will see acceptance with people worshipping all different gods like buddah [ notice the small g in gods] which is devil influenced to keep people from the true God.
But when it gets to christians who truly walk by the absolute truth of God, all these people hate it.

Also let me add that my church doesnt beleive you need the holy ghost to be saved, but the holy ghost seals you to the day of redemption, you need the holy ghost to be the bride, to have no spot, stain or wrinkle. Being saved comes when you truly accept Jesus into your heart, there's a difference, but being filled comes with am I sealed to the day of redemption.

Jollyrogers
Sep 11th 2008, 11:59 PM
When we speak of a church or group as a cult we need to be very clear in what our definition of a "cult" is. This is why I always liked Walter Martin's definition; Cult - A group of people that claim to follow a religion, yet deny core doctrinal teachings of that religion. Argueing over things like the pretrib vs posttrib or baptism by immersion or sprinkling is not a core item. However things like who Christ is, How we are saved, what Christ did on the cross ect ect. These are core doctrinal beliefs to Christianity. Oneness Pentacostals teach one of the oldest forms of Heresy (Modalism or Sabellianism). It was declared Heresy around 260 B.C.



Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God (http://www.theopedia.com/God) is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian (http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity) doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation (http://www.theopedia.com/Incarnation), Jesus (http://www.theopedia.com/Jesus) was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit (http://www.theopedia.com/Holy_Spirit) at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity (http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity).
http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism


Oneness churches also tend to put their people back under a works based system by requiring them to show evidence (dress, speaking in tongues, ect) as proof they are saved. We have to be careful of this because although all these things in themselves can be good, if we are doing it in the mindset that we must show these works or we are not saved, then are we in essence trying to help Christ pay for our sins. If so then we are adding to the works of Christ. Not only that but if we are not careful, we wind up getting proud of our own deeds and raising our own works above the works of Christ. That is dangerous and blasphamous.


The hard part about Pentacostalism is most people do not know the history of the movement. The movement split in the 1930's over these arguements. Not all Pentacostals are "Oneness" in belief. Sometimes the only way to know for sure is to go to their church and see what they teach.

Emanate
Sep 12th 2008, 11:06 PM
The final straw was recently when the preacher finally said that it matters which church you go to, how you're baptized, you must speak in tongues and called the other churches false. Hello?!




This is a common doctrine in MANy pentecostal churches. Church of God and its plinter Church of God of Prephecy, teach this very thing. And I am sure there are many mnore that are not considered "a cult".

Is there a biblical verse that says if we do not believe in the Trinity (as the many pagan religions did) that we are not saved?

Alaska
Sep 12th 2008, 11:28 PM
Quote:
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God (http://www.theopedia.com/God) is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian (http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity) doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation (http://www.theopedia.com/Incarnation), Jesus (http://www.theopedia.com/Jesus) was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit (http://www.theopedia.com/Holy_Spirit) at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity (http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity).
http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism

I know a lot of oneness people and the above italicised phrase is not what they believe. Looks like some Catholic must have written that. They believe assuredly that they do exist simutaneously as one God serving different offices as opposed to a multiple-God cop-out on monotheism.
If a person's explanation of the "trinity" cannot declare as a matter of absolute certainty that Christianity is not in the very least polytheistic, then that is a demonic doctrine.
At least the oneness people don't have to struggle with the nonsense that God is not totally one because they accept the mystery, howbeit often without a clearly understood and balanced presentation of their position.

BattleGround
Sep 13th 2008, 12:29 PM
My bible says that God is a jelous God in Exodus 34:14, aswell as you should worship no other God.

Three Gods....No way, God is a jealous God, Jesus was begotten of the Father as it says in John 3:16, ''My only begotten Son'', which means to come out of. Jesus is God, when he came out of God and walked this earth he was the word, as it says '' In the beggining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And this word became flesh.

I can add no more, but please do not let deceit cloud your mind, dont try to interpret the scripture yourself, let God interpret it for you.

I'm not fighting any human being, I come to say what is the truth, and no one can convince me other wise but God, but it seems like God has already convinced me so the devil is lucked out.

new4christ
Sep 15th 2008, 09:06 PM
Thanks for this advice.

I feel so unaccomplished. It has been a week and I haven't managed to do any witnessing. I have only talked to the one person who just started attending this church and he said he did believe in the trinity and that he didn't know that they didn't.

I have just been so busy and have had to put this on the back burner so to speak, although it should not be. I just don't know how to bring it up in conversation.

Remember, these people are people that I am very close to, not just coworkers.

Sold Out
Sep 16th 2008, 07:16 PM
My bible says that God is a jelous God in Exodus 34:14, aswell as you should worship no other God.

Three Gods....No way, God is a jealous God, Jesus was begotten of the Father as it says in John 3:16, ''My only begotten Son'', which means to come out of. Jesus is God, when he came out of God and walked this earth he was the word, as it says '' In the beggining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And this word became flesh.

I can add no more, but please do not let deceit cloud your mind, dont try to interpret the scripture yourself, let God interpret it for you.

I'm not fighting any human being, I come to say what is the truth, and no one can convince me other wise but God, but it seems like God has already convinced me so the devil is lucked out.

I'm confused...are you saying you do or don't believe in the Trinity?

Alaska
Sep 17th 2008, 02:26 AM
The trinity is fully expressed in this verse. Jesus says HE will pray to the FATHER to send the HOLY SPIRIT (comforter). Also the word 'another' is the greek word 'allos', which means 'another of the same kind'.


Fully expressed?
That depends on what your particular doctrinal stance is.
The oneness people don't deny there are three.
The conflict between oneness and trinity seems to be moreso:
are these three, three? or
are these three, one?

So by the above quotation, does your position make Christianity out to be not purely monotheistic?
Is the whole subject of the Father Son and Holy Ghost, being one God, a mystery, and a great one at that? or is it real simple; three separate individual beings, being of the same mind and in agreement?

Marc B
Sep 18th 2008, 12:46 AM
Those verses quite clearly demonstrate that God is, in fact, triune. So does 1 John 5:7 (at least in the KJV it does). Not to be a stick in the mud but that line says nothing about trinity.

JOHN 5:2 (http://bible.cc/john/5-2.htm) Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 (http://bible.cc/john/5-3.htm) In these lay a great multitude of weak folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 (http://bible.cc/john/5-4.htm) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatever disease he had. 5 (http://bible.cc/john/5-5.htm) And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 (http://bible.cc/john/5-6.htm) When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he said to him, Will you be made whole? 7 (http://bible.cc/john/5-7.htm) The weak man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steps down before me. 8 (http://bible.cc/john/5-8.htm) Jesus said to him, Rise, take up your bed, and walk. 9 (http://bible.cc/john/5-9.htm) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

As for the trinity doctrine I'm not convinced that God is 3 distinct beings. God is a family, Father and Son yet both God. Like Bob and Fred Smith, father and son yet both of Smith family. God's Holy Spirit? Yes, but not a ghost. Personally I find the term holy ghost derogatory but that's just me. Makes it sound like a spook which it isn't. If the Holy Spirit is indeed an individual entity in the trinity like the Father and Son then how can the Father impart that Holy Spirit in every true Christian at baptism to comfort and impart His very nature in us if the Spirit is one individual? So is the Holy Spirit a manifestation of the power of God or is the Holy Spirit actually a multitude of spirits or something else?

David Taylor
Sep 19th 2008, 02:02 PM
Not to be a stick in the mud but that line says nothing about trinity.

JOHN 5:2 (http://bible.cc/john/5-2.htm) Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 (http://bible.cc/john/5-3.htm) In these lay a great multitude of weak folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 (http://bible.cc/john/5-4.htm) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatever disease he had. 5 (http://bible.cc/john/5-5.htm) And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 (http://bible.cc/john/5-6.htm) When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he said to him, Will you be made whole? 7 (http://bible.cc/john/5-7.htm) The weak man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steps down before me. 8 (http://bible.cc/john/5-8.htm) Jesus said to him, Rise, take up your bed, and walk. 9 (http://bible.cc/john/5-9.htm) And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

As for the trinity doctrine I'm not convinced that God is 3 distinct beings. God is a family, Father and Son yet both God. Like Bob and Fred Smith, father and son yet both of Smith family. God's Holy Spirit? Yes, but not a ghost. Personally I find the term holy ghost derogatory but that's just me. Makes it sound like a spook which it isn't. If the Holy Spirit is indeed an individual entity in the trinity like the Father and Son then how can the Father impart that Holy Spirit in every true Christian at baptism to comfort and impart His very nature in us if the Spirit is one individual? So is the Holy Spirit a manifestation of the power of God or is the Holy Spirit actually a multitude of spirits or something else?


They were speaking of the 1st epistle of John's three epistles; not the Gospel of John. The Trinity is shown throughout this passage.

I John 5:6 "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God "

Marc B
Sep 21st 2008, 04:24 PM
My bad, I see your point now. However did you know that verse you quoted was added to the Bible and did not exist in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 16th Century?

http://bible.cc/1_john/5-7.htm

A real eye opener, it would seem the "trinity" is really the water [purification by baptism], blood [Christ's payment for our sins] and spirit [receiving of God's Holy Spirit]. Not Father, Son and ghost.

Here is a piece I found which explains it better.

The Holy Spirit is God’s outflowing power (Luke 1:35). It imparts God’s love as it is "poured out" in the hearts of believers (Romans 5:5). It is the means by which He created and brought into existence the very universe (Psalm 104:30). It is the power by which He works in the minds of human beings made in His image (Genesis 6:3). It is also the power by which the lame miraculously walked, the blind saw, the deaf heard and the dead were raised from their graves during Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry (Luke 5:15–17).
The Bible describes the Holy Spirit in various ways. Primarily, the Spirit is compared to wind. After all, pneuma—the Greek word for "spirit"—means "wind" or "breath." In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word translated "spirit" is ruach, and has the same meaning as the Greek pneuma.
Another common analogy is of flowing water (cf. John 7:38–39). Just as air and water are necessary life-giving forces, so the Holy Spirit is the source of eternal life for Christians (Romans 8:11). Just as air and water both flow, and have power to affect and change what they touch, so also does the Holy Spirit.
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine28&item=1104232928


I'm not dissing the KJV, it's a very good Bible. Just pointing out that it does have a flaw. Some will accuse me of taking away from the Word of God. If so then why didn't this passage show up until some 600 years after the original author's death?

Alaska
Sep 21st 2008, 04:28 PM
The conflict between oneness and trinity seems to be moreso:
are these three, three? or
are these three, one?



Nowadays, it seems folks are over-oversimplifying the mystery of the Godhead.
Just the term "trinity" in and of itself is evidence of oversimplification.
By association, "trinity" is directly associated with Catholocism.
Some high ranking Catholic was asked what was Catholocism's greatest contribution to Christianity. The answer was the doctrine of the trinity.
Since there are numerous versions of the trinity I wonder which one they hold to.
Many versions of "trinity" make God a polytheistic deity.

The Oneness people acknowledge that the great mystery of the Godhead makes the Father Son and Holy Ghost ONE God and not three.
Christianity is purely monotheistic according to their acceptance that the topic is a great mystery like Paul said.

What a horribly sad day in Christianity when it has to be debated whether or not Christianity is monotheistic.
And this is due to the confusion "trinity" has provided by trying to simplify something that cannot be simplified.

But then the Oneness people also often present their position in an oversimplified manner focusing on the fact that Jesus is the embodiment of the Father and the Holy Ghost. And they are right, He is just that, but they should present their position in a manner that clearly shows this mystery to be deep.
The phrase "three persons in one person" would help since it gets people thinking as opposed to three persons in one God that leans to the simplistic polytheistic view many trinity people hold to.

The subtle suggestion that Christianity is polytheistic is an extreme heresy that should be vehemently rejected. But I see it taking a foothold like the many other areas of truth that have been compromised and adulterated by the filthy versions such as the NIV and by corrupted "Christian" leaders.

Alaska
Sep 21st 2008, 05:07 PM
My bad, I see your point now. However did you know that verse you quoted was added to the Bible and did not exist in any Greek manuscripts prior to the 16th Century?

I think you need to do some more research before you make such claims.
You are potentially damaging new4christ's faith in God's word by such an accusation.

It is not true that it did not exist in any Greek manuscript prior to the 16th Century.
The arguments in favour of it being included, after initially not being included by some bibles, are very compelling.

But the verse itself is used by both sides of the argument anyway as a supporting verse to their position.


If so then why didn't this passage show up until some 600 years after the original author's death?

This is also a false statement. And now it is 600 years instead of 1500.

petepet
Sep 23rd 2008, 10:58 PM
Not to be a stick in the mud but that line says nothing about trinity.


As for the trinity doctrine I'm not convinced that God is 3 distinct beings. God is a family, Father and Son yet both God. Like Bob and Fred Smith, father and son yet both of Smith family. God's Holy Spirit? Yes, but not a ghost. Personally I find the term holy ghost derogatory but that's just me. Makes it sound like a spook which it isn't. If the Holy Spirit is indeed an individual entity in the trinity like the Father and Son then how can the Father impart that Holy Spirit in every true Christian at baptism to comfort and impart His very nature in us if the Spirit is one individual? So is the Holy Spirit a manifestation of the power of God or is the Holy Spirit actually a multitude of spirits or something else?

God is not three distinct beings He is One Being. Nor is God 'a family'. He is One Being and of One essence, although consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The title Son is given to Jesus Christ in order to express the truth that He is of the same nature with the Father, and yet in some way distinct from the Father. But like all human applications it must not be overpressed. In His Godhood Jesus was not born after the Father timewise but is co-eternal with the Father. Thus in that sense the term 'Son' is deceptive.
When we speak of Jesus as 'the heir of all things' we do not suggest that the Father will either die or retire. We know that it simply indicates that all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son. Thus we obtain from the picture what it wants to say, but do not overpress it. We must do the same with the title 'Son'.

We must beware of talking about God as though we know all about Him and can understand Him. In fact He lives in mystery and we know only what is revealed and that is so little because we are incapable of comprehnding God. God is not an oversized human being. God is neither limited to space nor time. He is Spirit. And that does not mean a gaseous mixture. It means something that is not limited by space or time. he is 'above' and 'beyond' us but can be known because He approaches us. He is Something beyond physical comprehension. God the Father is Spirit, God the Son is Spirit, God the Holy Spirit is Spirit. Thus it is not only the Holy Spirit Who comes and dwells within us, it is also the Father and the Son (John 14.23). We are baptised in the One Name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit because once we believe in Jesus Christ all three come to live within us.

We only know about the 'Triunity' of God because God has been pleased to reveal to us that much. But let us not think that therefore we understand God. We know that the three 'members' of the Triune God have inter-personal relations, thus demonstrating that God is composite and not 'alone'. On the other hand we know that they are always of One mind and One will. Thus they are not polytheistic. We use the term 'persons' in order to indicate distinctiveness, but the word goes too far for it suggests three individuals, and there are not three individuals in the Godhead. There are three inter-personalities. Yet Father, Son and Holy Spirit always work as One.

mb2891
Oct 3rd 2008, 12:51 AM
Also let me add that my church doesnt beleive you need the holy ghost to be saved, but the holy ghost seals you to the day of redemption, you need the holy ghost to be the bride, to have no spot, stain or wrinkle. Being saved comes when you truly accept Jesus into your heart, there's a difference, but being filled comes with am I sealed to the day of redemption.[/quote]

Battlestance, what you wrote here caught my eye. My wife and I have attended a pentecostle (upc) church for a couple years now. Both of us have spoken in tongues, however, at church they always say that when you recieve the holy ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues that it is the most amazing moment ever. For me I've got to say that it felt good but it wasn't completely amazing unlike anything I had ever experienced. I've looked in the bible and haven't found anywhere where it says that it's the most amazing experience ever. It's important to me because according to the upc I haven't received the holy ghost.

Another thing is that they believe that without the holy ghost and evidence of speaking in tongues a person is not saved. I just haven't accepted that. Do you have any scriptures that defend your quote? That suggest that a person can be saved without evidence of speaking in tongues?

I enjoy my church that my wife and i attend, but its like we're just floating around there because we don't quite see things as the rest of the congragation. I was wondering if could elaborate more on what your church believes? Thanks

LovebirdsFlying
Oct 4th 2008, 03:22 AM
Oneness Pentecostalism ceased to make sense to me when I couldn't answer the following questions:

1. Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gesthemane? Or at the tomb of Lazarus? Or anywhere else He prayed and said "Father"?
2. Who was in charge while Jesus was dead, before He rose again?