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gophgetter
Sep 7th 2008, 04:34 AM
Greetings Everyone,

I have a question concerning the white horse of Revelation 6:2.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It has been widely taught that the rider on this horese is the antichrist. If this is true, then this is the only place in the book of Revelation that the color white is symbolic of deception. All other references in Revelation of the color white represent purity or righteousness.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Can anyone help me to understand this? Why would God use the color white to describe an antichrist? This doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the book of Revelation.

Goph:hmm:

ServantoftheKing
Sep 7th 2008, 04:46 AM
I would say that the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 is not the antichrist. I'm with you on that. How does that teaching fit with Revelation? We cannot come to that conclusion using Scripture.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

vinsight4u8
Sep 7th 2008, 04:55 AM
The rider is not the ac. You are on the right track as to white means righteousness. Look at Rev. 19 and see why Jesus is coming riding on white?

Rev. 19:11
"...a white horse...in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

Look too at Judges 5 and Zechariah 6.

Judges 5:9
"My heart [is] toward the governors of Israel..."
v10
"Speak ye that ride on white..."
v11
"...rehearse the righteous acts of the LORD..."

vinsight4u8
Sep 7th 2008, 05:13 AM
In Zechariah chapter 6 - we find mountains made of brass. / as in represents the Greek Empire area
KJV
chariots
horses - these are the four spirits of the heavens

black horses go to the north country
white follow them
/they have gone to the Euphrates River
so the Euphrates River nation will set the riders
/Iraq


white stands for
the spirit of wisdom and with understanding one gets a crown delivered to them
/to possess the land = go forth conquering
to set up the nation
be its first ruler
judge righteously

Richard H
Sep 7th 2008, 10:05 AM
The white horse is not the antichrist. I'm not sure who it is. Later in 19:11, we see another white horse and it's rider is Christ. I do not think they are the same white horses.

Note of interest: The white stone is an invitation. http://philologos.org/bpr/files/w003.htm

vinsight4u8
Sep 7th 2008, 10:37 AM
When Israel set up her nation, she was told to choose men that were wise and understanding.

Deuteronomy 1:8
"Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land..."
v 13
"Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you."
v 16
"And I charged your judges at that time, saying,...judge righteously..."

4:13
"Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people."

ross3421
Sep 7th 2008, 10:48 AM
Greetings Everyone,

I have a question concerning the white horse of Revelation 6:2.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It has been widely taught that the rider on this horese is the antichrist. If this is true, then this is the only place in the book of Revelation that the color white is symbolic of deception. All other references in Revelation of the color white represent purity or righteousness.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Can anyone help me to understand this? Why would God use the color white to describe an antichrist? This doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the book of Revelation.

Goph:hmm:


The four riders are part of a government which wil arise upon the earth which is seen in Rev 13. These four equate to the four beasts of Satan's demonic kingdom. The AC is of the fourth beast.

Notice that in each kingdom God/Satan there are a descrition of 4 beast like creatures and as we see in chapter 6 the four from God's kingdom are describing the first four seals...... if one of these four are evil then they all are evil likewise if one is good all are good. Does it make sence that the first is good and the other three evil?

And as for the color white........Satan is described as the deceiver an angel of light and his prophets as those in sheep's clothing.


Mark

vinsight4u8
Sep 7th 2008, 11:12 AM
I agree that the 4th seal is the ac/ - the 5th seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the rapture.

So what are the other seals about?
They show us what to watch for in the nation of the 4th seal rider.

First the nation of Iraq was to be set up.
took the spirit of wisdom and understanding
/so this 1st seal time is over
/the rider was the first ruler of Iraq = King Faisal

Proverbs 4:5
"Get wisdom, get understanding.."
4:9
"She shall give to thine heard...a crown of glory..."

Rev. 6 (1st seal)
v 2
"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on...a crown was given...he went forth conquering and to conquer."

When Britain was starting up their ways in the middle east - as to wanting Iraq and such...King Faisal helped them as a conqueror and that is why he ended up the ruler of Iraq. The people of Iraq also voted to make him their king.
thus, began the nation of Iraq
and under him they gained independence from the British

Next came the 2nd seal rider -

as the nation of Iraq progressed with events that eventually lead to the 4th seal man of sin rider
/The death and hell type of man that Habakkuk prophesied about that at the end it shall speak. He will gather the nations unto himself and be a proud man.

ananias
Sep 8th 2008, 09:55 AM
Greetings Everyone,

I have a question concerning the white horse of Revelation 6:2.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It has been widely taught that the rider on this horese is the antichrist. If this is true, then this is the only place in the book of Revelation that the color white is symbolic of deception. All other references in Revelation of the color white represent purity or righteousness.

Goph:hmm:

I also agree with you, Goph. I also think that Rev.6: 2 may? correspond with Rev.14: 6-7:

"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Rev.14: 6-7).

I say this because the verses which follow seem to indicate that this takes place immediately before the rise of the antichrist:

"And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink. And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev.14: 8-12).

Before He gave the Revelation to John, Jesus had already said,

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Mat.24: 14).

And Rev.14: 6 says, "And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people," (Rev.14: 6).

And Rev.6: 2 says, "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

And as you point out, it's a white horse, and the color white is associated with righteousness - not with deception.

ananias

Joyfulparousia
Sep 8th 2008, 10:53 AM
Greetings Everyone,

I have a question concerning the white horse of Revelation 6:2.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It has been widely taught that the rider on this horese is the antichrist. If this is true, then this is the only place in the book of Revelation that the color white is symbolic of deception. All other references in Revelation of the color white represent purity or righteousness.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Can anyone help me to understand this? Why would God use the color white to describe an antichrist? This doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the book of Revelation.

Goph:hmm:

Wolf in sheep's clothing.

David Taylor
Sep 8th 2008, 12:07 PM
Wolf in sheep's clothing.

but not a wolf in horse's clothing.:spin:

Nowhere in Scripture is a white horse described as representing wickedness or the devil's activities/representatives. It is, however, used specifically in Revelation, to depict Jesus Christ. And Revelation's context when using 'white' is 100% consistently applied to righteousness never wickedness.

'White' is used descriptively of righteousness all 18 times, every occurrence in Revelation. That's very strong exogetical evidence for receiving Rev 6:2's useage of "white horse" as an example of righteousness not wickedness.

Nothing in Revelation tells us to believe Rev 6's white horse is being deceptive, disguising itself as wicked, or differentiated apart from Rev 19's white horse.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 8th 2008, 12:10 PM
but not a wolf in horse's clothing.:spin:

Nowhere in Scripture is a white horse described as representing wickedness or the devil's activities/representatives. It is, however, used specifically in Revelation, to depict Jesus Christ. And Revelation's context when using 'white' is 100% consistently applied to righteousness never wickedness.

'White' is used descriptively of righteousness all 18 times, every occurrence in Revelation. That's very strong exogetical evidence for receiving Rev 6:2's useage of "white horse" as an example of righteousness not wickedness.

Nothing in Revelation tells us to believe Rev 6's white horse is being deceptive, disguising itself as wicked, or differentiated apart from Rev 19's white horse.

So you believe that the first seal is Jesus? That Jesus opens the first seal and releases himself?

David Taylor
Sep 8th 2008, 12:15 PM
So you believe that the first seal is Jesus? That Jesus opens the first seal and releases himself?
Rev 6:2 uses the white horse as a personification of the Gospel going out.
Jesus released the Gospel to go forth and conquer.

It's been conquering wicked Strongholds and saving the lost throughout the world for centuries.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 8th 2008, 12:51 PM
Rev 6:2 uses the white horse as a personification of the Gospel going out.
Jesus released the Gospel to go forth and conquer.

It's been conquering wicked Strongholds and saving the lost throughout the world for centuries.

But you said that white horses can't refer to AC because there's not another passage that relates the two; so then, is there another passage that refers to a white horse representing the gospel?

David Taylor
Sep 8th 2008, 01:19 PM
But you said that white horses can't refer to AC because there's not another passage that relates the two; so then, is there another passage that refers to a white horse representing the gospel?
Hezekiah 4:23 and 2 Colossians chapter 3.

Haha

Point being, there is more internal evidence from Revelation that the white horse either Jesus or a personification of His work (gospel) then a wicked wolf/horse of Satan.

gophgetter
Sep 8th 2008, 05:33 PM
These are some great post. Very informative. I personally believe that the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 is Jesus Christ. The reason He is riding the white horse is because the white horse represents the early church which He held the reins of. The question was asked "Did Jesus open the first seal and reveal Himself?". You will notice that the seals began to opened after the Lamb was slain. It seems plain to me that these seals began to be opened immediately after Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, not 2,000 years later. The book that was sealed was the plan of salvation. Jesus was the one who was able to open that book and look thereon. Even the Old Testament prophets that prophesied of the plan of salvation that was in the Old Covenant did not understand what they were prophesying of.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Jesus unloosed the 1st seal and the 1st beast that says "come and see" has the face of a Lion. This Lion is none other than the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ. As the 1st seal is looosed, we see the early church going forth victoriously with Jesus holding the reins as the head of the church. But then we see the color of the horse change in the 2nd seal to red. Red is the color of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is why John said "I beheld another horse". As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, the gospel began to be perverted. Notice what Paul says about false prophets entering in and trying to change the gospel in 2 Cor. 11.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The beast that introduces the 2nd seal has the face of a calf which is a picture of sacrifice. As men began to creep into the early church, the Apostles and saints began to be martyred and persecuted. As the Apostles began to be killed, men began to become bolder about perverting the truth of the gospel and drawing away the disciples after themselves. Thus began the falling away of the church.

third hero
Sep 8th 2008, 06:54 PM
I believe that the white horse is the personnification of the Gospel, which incorporates the Chruch, the Gospel that the church carries, and the Spirit of the One who's Gospel it is. I do not believe that the First horseman is the person Jesus because Jesus is the one who opened the seal to have the white horse appear. THe Horse appeared from the broken seal, and not from the throneroom, where Jesus was at when the horse appeared.

It simply does not make sense to have it any other way. I would agree about jesus being the white horse, but He opened the seal. Remember, Jesus is still 100% human as well as 100% God. He can not have Himself appear in front of Himself. He is incased in a body now, a human body, although Glorified, He is still limited to that of being in one place at a time. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, has no such limitation, and thus has to be the one who represents Him on this earth while He is ruling from Heaven. Therefore, since Jesus is the one opening the seals, He can not be personally one of the things that propagate from the seals, sue to that limitation.

It is my opinion that All that is related to Christ's kingdom here on earth todayt is what the white Horse symbolizes.

Just a Door Keeper
Sep 8th 2008, 06:59 PM
The rider of the white horse is the antichrist, the devil is always an imposter, he will come as the saviour of the world, an imitator. He goes forth conquering. Notice the fruit of this person, wars, famines, pestilences, death etc, this is not Jesus Christ, this is the antichrist coming on the scene. The Lord Jesus is in Heaven opening seals at this time, He isn't appearing until after these things. Do you think Jesus will be on earth horse back riding and at the same time opening the other seals in Heaven? Doesn't make sense does it?

third hero
Sep 8th 2008, 07:03 PM
The rider of the white horse is the antichrist, the devil is always an imposter, he will come as the saviour of the world, an imitator. He goes forth conquering. Notice the fruit of this person, wars, famines, pestilences, death etc, this is not Jesus Christ, this is the antichrist coming on the scene. The Lord Jesus is in Heaven opening seals at this time, He isn't appearing until after these things. Do you think Jesus will be on earth horse back riding and at the same time opening the other seals in Heaven? Doesn't make sense does it?

Prove it. The color white is used many times in Revelation. None of those times does it refer to anything other than righteousness and holiness. Show me one instance when the color white was used to be deceptive?

David Taylor
Sep 8th 2008, 07:23 PM
The rider of the white horse is the antichrist, the devil is always an imposter, he will come as the saviour of the world, an imitator. He goes forth conquering.

But nothing in Revelation 6, nor anywhere in Revelation tells us the rider of this white horse is the antichrist, nor that this is the devil imposing as Christ.

It simply states the white horse goes out to conquer; and if it is representative of the Gospel of Christ going out as it did in the first century; then conquering is a good thing.




Notice the fruit of this person, wars, famines, pestilences, death etc, this is not Jesus Christ, this is the antichrist coming on the scene.

Revelation 6 doesn't tell us those are the fruits of the white-horse.

Those rather, are the conflict and resistence the world has to the outgoing of the gospel.

Interpretting it in the manner you did, saying the fruits that follow the white horse are from the white horse, would be like saying that since the Earth was destroyed for wickedness following Noah going into the ark, then Noah must have been wicked, and caused all the wickedness.





The Lord Jesus is in Heaven opening seals at this time, He isn't appearing until after these things. Do you think Jesus will be on earth horse back riding and at the same time opening the other seals in Heaven? Doesn't make sense does it?

Yes, the Lord Jesus was in Heaven when the gospel started to go out, as personified in the white horse.

Acts chapter 1 shows Jesus ascending into Heaven, and immediately after that in Acts chapter 2, the gospel begins to go out to all nations.

All 4 of the horsemen are personifications; not literal horses with literal riders.

bennie
Sep 8th 2008, 08:09 PM
The rider of the white horse is the antichrist, the devil is always an imposter, he will come as the saviour of the world, an imitator. He goes forth conquering. Notice the fruit of this person, wars, famines, pestilences, death etc, this is not Jesus Christ, this is the antichrist coming on the scene. The Lord Jesus is in Heaven opening seals at this time, He isn't appearing until after these things. Do you think Jesus will be on earth horse back riding and at the same time opening the other seals in Heaven? Doesn't make sense does it?


so, by following your thinking, you are saying that God Almighty is the Anti Christ???:o

" Notice the fruit of this person, wars, famines, pestilences, death etc"

here is something for you to ponder:
Ezekiel14:21 for this is what the Sovereighn Lord says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem MY four deadly judgments- sword and famine and wild beasts and plague- to kill its men and their animals.

God Almighty is sending these judgments on a degenarate world

Bennie

Joyfulparousia
Sep 8th 2008, 08:17 PM
But nothing in Revelation 6, nor anywhere in Revelation tells us the rider of this white horse is the antichrist, nor that this is the devil imposing as Christ.

It simply states the white horse goes out to conquer; and if it is representative of the Gospel of Christ going out as it did in the first century; then conquering is a good thing.

Revelation 6 doesn't tell us those are the fruits of the white-horse.

Those rather, are the conflict and resistence the world has to the outgoing of the gospel.

Interpretting it in the manner you did, saying the fruits that follow the white horse are from the white horse, would be like saying that since the Earth was destroyed for wickedness following Noah going into the ark, then Noah must have been wicked, and caused all the wickedness.

Yes, the Lord Jesus was in Heaven when the gospel started to go out, as personified in the white horse.

Acts chapter 1 shows Jesus ascending into Heaven, and immediately after that in Acts chapter 2, the gospel begins to go out to all nations.

All 4 of the horsemen are personifications; not literal horses with literal riders.

If you examine the descriptions of the rider on the white horse of Rev. 6:2 you can see that this rider is not Jesus nor the Word.

The Rider, the one who is emphasized here, has 4 notable characteristics:

1. ) He had a bow. A bow cannot execute like a sword, it is most effective at long range. The description of Jesus in Revelation 19 describes Jesus with a sword covered in the blood of His enemies (Is. 63). If Jesus is covered in blood, it means He is close enough to His enemies while killing them (i.e. a sword instead of a bow).

2.) A crown was given to him. This rider did not receive authority by his own merit. He could not have received this authority if it had not been apportioned to him. Jesus, called the Lamb in Revelation 5:7, comes and takes the scroll (authority) out of the hand of Him who sat on the throne (the Father). Jesus is not given something, He takes it because He is worthy 5:9 and He prevailed over everything that would keep Him from inheriting all things (cf 5:5, Col 1:20).

3.) He went out conquering. He will be allowed to conquer. The same one who gave the rider authority has given him this authority for the purpose of conquering.

4.) He went to conquer. His intent from the beginning was to conquer. It was in his heart.

Examine these descriptions with Rev. 13 -

Rev 13:4 So they did homage to the dragon who gave authority to the beast (Antichrist); and they did homage to the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him (conquering)?
Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in Heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

All that Antichrist has is given to him including his authority, throne, power, military etc. He cannot receive anything without it first being given to him.

This rider of 6:2 (Antichrist) is meant to appear as a Savior/Conqueror type who, make note, appears on scene before the judgments all begin. Like the Antichrist, we know that the judgments do not begin until he appears. The white horse can't be the Gospel because it's the rider who is emphasized. Not the horse.

stormgurl
Sep 8th 2008, 09:59 PM
Hm, I do agree it strange that if the white horse represents Jesus or the Gospel the crown was given. In keeping with white only referencing righteousness nothing in Revelation seems to be given to Jesus. So why is this nameless rider on a white horse given a crown? I wonder if this possible contradiction of terms isn't similar to Pilot's and Jesus interaction in John 19:10-11 "Then Pilate said to Him, '...Do You not know that i have power to crucify You, and power to release You?' Jesus answered, 'You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.'"
Could the white horse speak of God's leadership throughout history; that He alone gives authority to rulers and kings?

Joyfulparousia
Sep 8th 2008, 11:12 PM
Could the white horse speak of God's leadership throughout history; that He alone gives authority to rulers and kings?

Though He does do the latter, I don't know if we could boldly interpret the white horse as God's leadership. I think there are clear implications but not yet solid definitions. To label the white horse as the leadership of the Lord might create some problems interpreting the other horses and their various colorings.

To me, the white horse speaks of the counterfeit of the white horse Jesus comes on in Revelation 19. Antichrist will be what man, in all his religions and delusions, is looking for.

gophgetter
Sep 9th 2008, 04:24 AM
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Phillipians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

third hero
Sep 9th 2008, 05:16 AM
The Rider, the one who is emphasized here, has 4 notable characteristics:

1. ) He had a bow. A bow cannot execute like a sword, it is most effective at long range. The description of Jesus in Revelation 19 describes Jesus with a sword covered in the blood of His enemies (Is. 63). If Jesus is covered in blood, it means He is close enough to His enemies while killing them (i.e. a sword instead of a bow).

like David Taylor said, the four horsemen are not literal, but symbols. Therefore, the symbols themselves are by what we are to just these four.

For instance, what does the bow represent? IN antiquity, the bow held the very same meaning as the horn. It represented strength. The meaning of the bow is that the rider of the white horse was strong. Likened to the Gospel, which is strong enough to overcome an and all obsticles, both physical and spiritual.

This is very important. Usually, the good guys are described as having bows, which David has been described as in the OT. The bad guys are described as having horns. Notice that Jesus is not described at all with horns, nor are the saints. Rather, the Beast, the Dragon, and the false prophet are all described with horns, representing evil power. This difference alone is enough to debunk the notion that the white horse is even remotely connected to evil.

What the bow is used for is irrelevant in determining the meaning of symbols in prophetic literature, as is the main usage of horns.


2.) A crown was given to him. This rider did not receive authority by his own merit. He could not have received this authority if it had not been apportioned to him. Jesus, called the Lamb in Revelation 5:7, comes and takes the scroll (authority) out of the hand of Him who sat on the throne (the Father). Jesus is not given something, He takes it because He is worthy 5:9 and He prevailed over everything that would keep Him from inheriting all things (cf 5:5, Col 1:20).

WHere was the horseman when he was given a crown? Was he not in heaven? If this is so, then only the King of Heaven can give a crown, and no one else. Therefore, the crown, or authority that the white horse is given represents the power of the kingdom of Heaven, which the Gospel gives all of those who believe in it.


3.) He went out conquering. He will be allowed to conquer. The same one who gave the rider authority has given him this authority for the purpose of conquering.

4.) He went to conquer. His intent from the beginning was to conquer. It was in his heart.

What happened at Penticost? Did the Gospel go out conquering and seeking to conquer more? It looks to me as though the Gospel is the clear winner here.


Examine these descriptions with Rev. 13 -

Rev 13:4 So they did homage to the dragon who gave authority to the beast (Antichrist); and they did homage to the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him (conquering)?

Now, this is a text-book definition of using scripture to prove other scripture does not work. What color was the beast in verse 1? Was he white? Did He have a bow, or did he have horns? Did e come conquering from the outset?


Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Was the beast given a crown?


Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in Heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Who gave him that authority, and was he in heaven when he did it?



All that Antichrist has is given to him including his authority, throne, power, military etc. He cannot receive anything without it first being given to him.

This rider of 6:2 (Antichrist) is meant to appear as a Savior/Conqueror type who, make note, appears on scene before the judgments all begin. Like the Antichrist, we know that the judgments do not begin until he appears. The white horse can't be the Gospel because it's the rider who is emphasized. Not the horse.

While there may be some similarities between what Satan does to the beast and the descriptions of the white horse, there are some VAST differences that separate the two.

1. The event of Revelation 13 happens on earth, not in heaven.
2. The Beast is not described as having a bow. Instead, he has horns, ten of them.
3. He does not come conquering and seekiung to conquer, for he is first mentioned in chapter 11, BEFORE his advent.
4. Last, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Beast, which you call the AnitChrist, is not described with the color white.

Therefore, there is no evidence that shows that the white horse is anything other than the Gospel, and the personnification of all who have, hold, and spread it.

quiet dove
Sep 9th 2008, 05:34 AM
You guys know I just have to put my two cents in, but I believe, though the horses are symbolic, they describe a real reality. Thus, the first horse represents the AC, a wolf in sheep clothing. The color white, nor the horse, are the context, they are the prophectic symbols of a reality to come/be. They do not give the context and the context of all four horses is the wrath of the Lamb and what will be taking place on the earth because of His wrath upon those who reject Him.

We know from other passages in the NT that those who refused the truth will accept the lie.

ross3421
Sep 9th 2008, 06:04 AM
The 4 horseman are either ALL good or all evil..........it makes no sense for 1 to be good and the other evil.

Will not the AC promote the gospel? Sure he will.........he claims to be the fullfillment thereof.

Actually the four horseman are the four beasts....


Mark

third hero
Sep 9th 2008, 06:30 AM
The 4 horseman are either ALL good or all evil..........it makes no sense for 1 to be good and the other evil.

Will not the AC promote the gospel? Sure he will.........he claims to be the fullfillment thereof.

Actually the four horseman are the four beasts....


Mark

The four horseman are neither Good or Evil. They are signs. The Horsemen are symbols in and of themselves, and represent something that God is going to do. It is the interpretation of these horsemen that make them good or evil, which is entirely up to man alone, and not scripture. Hence you see the horsemen as evil or good, when I see them as signs of what God either has done, is doing, or will shortly do. In fact, all seven seals are all symbols and signs, which can not be interpreted at either Good or Evil.

Again, all of these signs, all of the horsemen come from the scroll that is in Lord Jesus's hand. Now, please examine what you are saying here. You are saying that the horsemen are either all good or all evil, when all of them come from Lord Jesus. Is Jesus evil, that evil will sprout out of his hand? Is Jesus the one who gives the earth the Antichrist? Remember, that was the first sign that proceeded out of the scroll in Lord Jesus's hand. So if you are saying that the Antichrist is the first horseman, then you are saying that Christ produced him, and I believe that is a lie in an of itself.

Moreover, the colors of the horsemen, all of them, are symbolic. The second one was red, which is the color of blood. It is only fitting that it would have a large sword and take peace from the earth. This is not a reality, it is a sign. This horseman is a symbol of the Lord allowing peace to be taken from the earth, and the sign of which is the increase of violence in places that were at one point deemed safe, like suburban areas or back-water towns.

The last horseman is improperly described, but the Greek gets it right. The KJV says that the horse is pale, likening to death. But the Greek saythat the color of the horse was pale-green, likened to that of ghosts. Pale-green is the symbolic color of ghosts, or spiritual beings capable of posessing other beings. And so the color of the horse does matter, a great deal here.

The only horse that can be considered as "Evil" is the last one, because the name of the horseman is Death, with Hell riding close by. Even so, I disagree that even this horse is evil, because it only describes the event of 1/4th of the planet being consumed by Death, where nothing grows and men and animals kill each other, as though they are posessed by demons. Again, this is a sign, and not a reality in and of itself.

Seals 5-7 are all signs as well, so why aren't the first four? Because they are personnified as horses? Moreover, how can you call these horses the same four horses as the chariots that rode around in Ezekiel? They aren't even colored the same, and the red one didn't even exist. Moreover, the green one was bay-colored, and not ghost green, and therefore the chariots of then and the horsemen of Revelation are not the same, and therefore should not be viewed as such. Again, this is where using scripture to define other scripture fails.

Just like the seven trumpets are signs of warning that the Lord is about to return, so are the seals which warn us that the time is drawing closer to the trumpets, when after they are blown, the Lord shall return.

Lastly, the four "horsemen" are not the four beast, for the four beasts were present in Heaven, long before the seals were broken. Check out chapter 4 to see them present before the Lord even grabs a hold of the scroll.

quiet dove
Sep 9th 2008, 05:58 PM
The four horseman are neither Good or Evil. They are signs. The Horsemen are symbols in and of themselves, and represent something that God is going to do.

I agree, they are symbols to illustrate to us what God is doing. And Jesus is opening the scroll as He is the only one worthy, the only one worthy to determine and deliver judgments. To me, all four horses are symbols of that judgment, the context is the One who is worthy opening the seals on the scroll of end times judgments that will befall those upon the earth who have rejected Him.

The white horse and its rider reflect the false one that the peoples of the earth will follow, just as is stated elsewhere in scripture, they refused the Truth and are now accepting the Lie.

third hero
Sep 9th 2008, 06:20 PM
I agree, they are symbols to illustrate to us what God is doing. And Jesus is opening the scroll as He is the only one worthy, the only one worthy to determine and deliver judgments. To me, all four horses are symbols of that judgment, the context is the One who is worthy opening the seals on the scroll of end times judgments that will befall those upon the earth who have rejected Him.

The white horse and its rider reflect the false one that the peoples of the earth will follow, just as is stated elsewhere in scripture, they refused the Truth and are now accepting the Lie.

QD,
I have studied prophetic scriptures for a long time. I know that in order to proclaim that a certain passage means something other than what it says, there has to be enough evidence to collaborate with the assertation. In regard to the rider and the white horse, there isn't any collaboration that would cause anyone who has analyzed scripture to agree with the dispensational view that a holy, righteous, strong symbolic horse that goes forth conquering and seeking conquest is anything other than something connected to God himself. None of the classic signs of evil are found in this passage.

No horns.
No color of darkness (pale-green, red, black, etc).
No connection to the evil one. (The white horse and rider were in heaven, especially when he was given a crown, nothing evil is given authority from heaven while in heaven).

There is nothing here to suggest that the white horse is anything evil. I'm sorry, but there truly isn't.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 9th 2008, 06:30 PM
like David Taylor said, the four horsemen are not literal, but symbols. Therefore, the symbols themselves are by what we are to just these four.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me.


For instance, what does the bow represent? IN antiquity, the bow held the very same meaning as the horn.
It represented strength. The meaning of the bow is that the rider of the white horse was strong. Likened to the Gospel, which is strong enough to overcome an and all obsticles, both physical and spiritual.

Where is this in the bible?



This is very important. Usually, the good guys are described as having bows, which David has been described as in the OT. The bad guys are described as having horns. Notice that Jesus is not described at all with horns, nor are the saints. Rather, the Beast, the Dragon, and the false prophet are all described with horns, representing evil power.

I didn't say Jesus had horns.



What the bow is used for is irrelevant in determining the meaning of symbols in prophetic literature, as is the main usage of horns.

Then why did you give me the antiquity meaning?



WHere was the horseman when he was given a crown? Was he not in heaven?

You've injected something into passage by assuming that the rider is in heaven. Pretty sure it doesn't mention where this coronation happens. John is in heaven, but the horses are on the earth. Are you suggesting that the all the other horses and their riders are riding along in heaven with the white horse? Secondly, for your interpretation to make sense, the Gospel has to be on the earth. Thirdly, John saw and wrote Revelation after Pentecost, so what would be the purpose of having digressive revelation of a past event?


If this is so, then only the King of Heaven can give a crown, and no one else.

Amen.


Therefore, the crown, or authority that the white horse is given represents the power of the kingdom of Heaven, which the Gospel gives all of those who believe in it.

So the Lord doesn't give authority to people who misuse it?



What happened at Penticost? Did the Gospel go out conquering and seeking to conquer more?

You seem to think that it did, but that doesn't convince me of anything. Is there another verse that describes this conquering Gospel riding forth?



Now, this is a text-book definition of using scripture to prove other scripture does not work. What color was the beast in verse 1? Was he white? Did He have a bow, or did he have horns? Did e come conquering from the outset?

And this is text book of the same tactic - What color is the Word? Was it white? Did it have a bow, or horns?


Was the beast given a crown?

Yes he was given authority over the entire planet, I'd say it's not a far stretch to say he had a crown on. Was the Gospel given a crown?



Who gave him that authority, and was he in heaven when he did it?

God did; the passage doesn't mention where the rider was in relation to heaven and earth, but God was defintely in heaven when He raised up this king.


While there may be some similarities between what Satan does to the beast and the descriptions of the white horse, there are some VAST differences that separate the two.

In my opinion, there are just as many VAST differences in interpreting this as the gospel, i.e. there no other passages that describe the Word with the same attributes as the white rider, only inferences.

[quote=third hero;1781118]1. The event of Revelation 13 happens on earth, not in heaven.


WHere was the horseman when he was given a crown? Was he not in heaven?

Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be come contradiction with these 2 statements.



2. The Beast is not described as having a bow. Instead, he has horns, ten of them.

Indeed neither does the Gospel.



3. He does not come conquering and seeking to conquer, for he is first mentioned in chapter 11, BEFORE his advent.

Ah, we come the truth of the matter. Revelation 11 and 13 are both parenthetical sections, not chronological.

Revelation 11 is giving an overview of the ministry of the 2 witnesses during the Great Tribulation (1260 days). Then the witness are killed and resurrected before the Second Advent which is Rev. 11:15 and on.

Revelation 13 is an overview of the ministry (or activities) of Antichrist and the False Prophet during the previously mentioned (yet same time frame) 1260 days.


Last, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Beast, which you call the AnitChrist, is not described with the color white.

And neither is the Gospel.


Therefore, there is no evidence that shows that the white horse is anything other than the Gospel, and the personnification of all who have, hold, and spread it.

I wholeheartedly disagree :D

faithfulfriend
Sep 9th 2008, 06:43 PM
These are some great post. Very informative. I personally believe that the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 is Jesus Christ. The reason He is riding the white horse is because the white horse represents the early church which He held the reins of. The question was asked "Did Jesus open the first seal and reveal Himself?". You will notice that the seals began to opened after the Lamb was slain. It seems plain to me that these seals began to be opened immediately after Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, not 2,000 years later. The book that was sealed was the plan of salvation. Jesus was the one who was able to open that book and look thereon. Even the Old Testament prophets that prophesied of the plan of salvation that was in the Old Covenant did not understand what they were prophesying of.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Jesus unloosed the 1st seal and the 1st beast that says "come and see" has the face of a Lion. This Lion is none other than the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ. As the 1st seal is looosed, we see the early church going forth victoriously with Jesus holding the reins as the head of the church. But then we see the color of the horse change in the 2nd seal to red. Red is the color of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is why John said "I beheld another horse". As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, the gospel began to be perverted. Notice what Paul says about false prophets entering in and trying to change the gospel in 2 Cor. 11.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The beast that introduces the 2nd seal has the face of a calf which is a picture of sacrifice. As men began to creep into the early church, the Apostles and saints began to be martyred and persecuted. As the Apostles began to be killed, men began to become bolder about perverting the truth of the gospel and drawing away the disciples after themselves. Thus began the falling away of the church.

Re 6:1 ∂ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The Lamb is a symbol of Jesus Christ (John 1:29). The seals show the conditions, under which salvation were offered in each age. By studying them it will help our vision in seeing clearly what is required of us in our day.

The first symbol to study is thunder. Thunder is an echo or a report of a flash of lightning that has already occurred. So we understand it is pointing back to events of the past, in the case to Pentecost, when the church went forth conquering and to conqueror.

John in his vision saw a white horse going forth in battle. The horse is a symbol of warfare and a spirit, i.e. the militant spirit, which is taken from the Romansí military and civil life. Zech 5:1-5; Jer. 6:23; 8:6.

White is a symbol of purity (holiness). It takes a pure, holy people to fight against wrong and conqueror. So we see the church is depicted by a white horse and its rider, a militant conquering spirit, or influence for God (Christ).

The bow is a offensive weapon, shooting forth arrows of truth. Jer. 50:14, 15. We are not to sympathize with Babylon or sin, but blow the trumpet and shoot arrows of fiery truth at anything that isnít holiness unto the Lord.

The crown represents victory. Victory must first be won before a crown is given. The church has victory over sin, and opposition.

markedward
Sep 9th 2008, 06:44 PM
You guys know I just have to put my two cents in, but I believe, though the horses are symbolic, they describe a real reality. Thus, the first horse represents the AC, a wolf in sheep clothing. The color white, nor the horse, are the context, they are the prophectic symbols of a reality to come/be. They do not give the context and the context of all four horses is the wrath of the Lamb and what will be taking place on the earth because of His wrath upon those who reject Him.You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.

The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.

The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.

In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.


We know from other passages in the NT that those who refused the truth will accept the lie.AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.

quiet dove
Sep 9th 2008, 06:47 PM
QD,
I have studied prophetic scriptures for a long time. I know that in order to proclaim that a certain passage means something other than what it says, there has to be enough evidence to collaborate with the assertation. In regard to the rider and the white horse, there isn't any collaboration that would cause anyone who has analyzed scripture to agree with the dispensational view that a holy, righteous, strong symbolic horse that goes forth conquering and seeking conquest is anything other than something connected to God himself. None of the classic signs of evil are found in this passage.

No horns.
No color of darkness (pale-green, red, black, etc).
No connection to the evil one. (The white horse and rider were in heaven, especially when he was given a crown, nothing evil is given authority from heaven while in heaven).

There is nothing here to suggest that the white horse is anything evil. I'm sorry, but there truly isn't.

Sit down before reading this 3H, but I have been studying it all for a long time also- just for the record.

And we are clearly warned about wolves in sheep's clothing,
And we are clearly told, not to mention can see it all around us, that men will get what they want. Their refusal of Light will get them darkness, and that darkness comes in a bright shiny white suite many times.

So again, white, and horse, and lack of horns, are not the context in these verses. I agree, the white horse goes out to conquer and seeking conquest, but again, that is what he does, and does not change the context of the passages that Christ is opening the seals of judgment.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 9th 2008, 07:01 PM
You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.

The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.

The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.

In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.

AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.


Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.

quiet dove
Sep 9th 2008, 07:14 PM
You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.

If we are considering the entire context of Revelation and how it effects the white horse, again, the context is judgment. The false teachings of those who corrupt the Light do not come dressed as monsters, but sheep.



The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.The monster is what is underneath the fake sheep's outside. There are fake good guys everywhere teaching things and telling men things, under the guise of Christianity, that do nothing but lead the men away from faith in Christ and the Gospel of salvation through only Him. And not a one of them tends to look like a monster.



The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.No strike three either. The description of this horse is included with a description of Christ righteousness, the rest of those passages describing Christ are far more important that the white horse.

Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


There is no comparison in the descriptions of the rider of the white horse in Rev6 and here in Rev 19

Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; ...... 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

A crown, a bow? No sword. And the opening of the seal - judgment has begun. The color of the horse is not the determining factor in all that we are told. It's color tells us this one will look to be good, but the context tells us it will be a false good.



In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.The mere three or four verses would be included in the seals of judgment being openend and are within the Book in the Bible that deals primarily with God's judgment on the Christ rejecting world.


AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.No, what I am saying is this is one that those who refuse the Truth, and the Light, Jesus Christ will follow. I never said anything about His sheep believing this false one. His sheep are capable of discerning those who teach a false Gospel, are they not doing that everyday now, so why would this future one be any different, they would discern his lies also. Your the one making the "AKA" implication, not me.

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 07:40 PM
As an aside, I'm sure we have all noticed that Hollywood doesn't even bother dressing up the good guys in white hats anymore. That stopped some time in the 80's. For example, the first two Star Wars: Luke Skywalker was dressed in white. Then in "Return of the Jedi", Luke Skywalker was dressed in black. And he looked good, too.

quiet dove
Sep 9th 2008, 08:30 PM
As an aside, I'm sure we have all noticed that Hollywood doesn't even bother dressing up the good guys in white hats anymore. That stopped some time in the 80's. For example, the first two Star Wars: Luke Skywalker was dressed in white. Then in "Return of the Jedi", Luke Skywalker was dressed in black. And he looked good, too.

The problem is, we are not talking about Hollywood or Star Wars, we are talking about those who distort Mercy and Grace into something that no longer is Salvation. And their good at it, because the leader of the lie is quite clever.

bennie
Sep 9th 2008, 08:55 PM
Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.


the whole of revelation is used to support ideas.
it is a constant theme in revelation that the beasts represent evil.
when the AC gets adressed the language clearly says that e.g lamblike beast Rev13:11

the living creatures in Rev4 is not evil, hence they are not called beasts.
The white horse is not evil, hence it is not called a beast.

bennie

markedward
Sep 10th 2008, 12:13 AM
Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.Okay...

Point 1 - The Use of the Color White in the Revelation
Aside from the fact that multiple people already posted this, you seem to think there's "no verses to support the ideas." Since you apparently missed this mentioned (at least) twice on the first page of this thread... Here is a listing of every verse (other than the one in question) that mentions the word "white."

Revelation 1:14
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 3:4
Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 6:11
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:13
Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

Revelation 7:14
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:14
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

Revelation 15:6
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Every verse aside from 6:1-2 uses the color "white" in a righteous context. The Son of Man has white hair. The saints are clothed in white. The Son of Man is on a white cloud. God sits on a white throne. Christ rides on a white horse. A white stone is given to the saints. Every verse other than 6:2 uses "white" to denote righteousness or holiness or goodness. That's hardly "no verses to support."

The tremendous consistency throughout the rest of the Revelation for its use of "white" practically demands that the white horse of 6:2 be interpreted as something righteous in some sense or another.

Point 2 - Evil is Depicted as Evil in the Revelation
In the instances where evil is explicitly mentioned, or terrible things are explicitly seen, it is always described with imagery that is negative by connotations.

The Dragon of Revelation 12: In all of history, "dragons" have been seen as terrible and vile monsters. The dragon is not presented as trying to hide its wickedness - it flaunts it by trying to destroy "the woman" and her Child and the rest of her offspring.

The Beast of the Sea of Revelation 13: The beast is described as a twisted amalgamation of a bear, a lion and a leopard - animals that are distinctly known to be violent. Aside from this, the dragon "lends" its power to the beast of the sea. This beast is described as having a "blasphemous" name, as uttering "blasphemies" and "proud words." He directly blasphemes God, and "slanders" the saints. He even makes war upon the saints. He is directly and openly described as being vicious and vile.

The Beast of the Earth of Revelation 13: He is described as speaking as a dragon (again, an instantly negative connotation). He openly kills people who refuse to worship the first beast (the one that is openly vicious and vile).

The Three Unclean Spirits of Revelation 16: They are described as frogs (not very attractive creatures, what with the slime and warts), and they came from the dragon (described in evil terms), and the two beasts (each also described in evil terms).

The Prostitute Babylon of Revelation 17: She is described as committing adultery (a sin), drunkenness (a sin), and murder of the saints and prophets (a sin). She is called "The Mother of ... the Abominations of the Earth."

The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17: The beast is described in the same manner as the Beast of the Earth. He is seen openly warring against the Lamb.

Gog and Magog of Revelation 20: Described as marching to war against God's beloved people.


The monster is what is underneath the fake sheep's outside. There are fake good guys everywhere teaching things and telling men things, under the guise of Christianity, that do nothing but lead the men away from faith in Christ and the Gospel of salvation through only Him. And not a one of them tends to look like a monster.

Of all of the above, yes, the Dragon and the Beast of the Earth (the false prophet) do deceive people. But they are never described with the word "white," and nor are we described how they will appear to the people they deceive. They are all consistently depicted as they appear to God - evil, vile, wicked, sinful, vicious, and terrible. Beasts, dragons, prostitutes. They are all consistently described in relation to their true spiritual selves, and they are never described in relation to how good they may appear to the people they are tricking.

Point 3 - Recognizing John's Consistency
Not only would using the term "white" to describe even one of these evil things (even in their "masquerade") break the consistency of "white = righteousness" as presented in Point 1, it would also break the consistency that "evil is depicted as evil" as shown above in Point 2.

Sure, there will be deceivers. But the Revelation always shows them for what they really are, not for what they pretend to be. Interpreting 6:2 as such only breaks the consistency of "white equals good" and "evil is described as evil".

If John had actually said something or was told something to the extent that "the white horse is actually bad," then that might hold some ground. But he was never told such a thing, he never says such a thing, so one must interpret the passage in consistency with the rest of the book, which results in entirely the opposite notion of "the white horse is a bad guy pretending to be good," since we never see "white" used in relation to bad, and we never see "evil" described in terms of good throughout the whole of the book.

RevLogos
Sep 10th 2008, 12:22 AM
When the first 4 seals are opened the four horsemen are summoned and given authority, but it looks to me like they do not actually get unleashed to do anything until the 6th trumpet in Chapter 9:13-17. Are these four bound angels the same as the four horsemen?

markedward
Sep 10th 2008, 01:05 AM
There's nothing strong to connect the four horsemen to the four angels anymore than connecting the four angels to the four living creatures. Other than their "fourness," there's nothing really similar about them.

RevLogos
Sep 10th 2008, 04:04 AM
Is there a connection between the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6, and the horses seen by Zechariah in chapters 1 and 6?

In Chapter 1 Zechariah sees a man on a red horse, and behind him riders on red, white and speckled horses. They seem to be doing reconnaissance for the Lord. In Chapter 6 Zechariah sees four teams of horses harnessed to chariots. The horses are black, white, red, and spotted. They are given permission to scatter and walk the earth, but donít really do much. The black and white teams go to the North country and bring peace.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 10th 2008, 04:56 AM
Okay...

Point 1 - The Use of the Color White in the Revelation
Aside from the fact that multiple people already posted this, you seem to think there's "no verses to support the ideas." Since you apparently missed this mentioned (at least) twice on the first page of this thread... Here is a listing of every verse (other than the one in question) that mentions the word "white."

Revelation 1:14
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 3:4
Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Revelation 6:11
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:13
Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

Revelation 7:14
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:14
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

Revelation 15:6
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Every verse aside from 6:1-2 uses the color "white" in a righteous context. The Son of Man has white hair. The saints are clothed in white. The Son of Man is on a white cloud. God sits on a white throne. Christ rides on a white horse. A white stone is given to the saints. Every verse other than 6:2 uses "white" to denote righteousness or holiness or goodness. That's hardly "no verses to support."

The tremendous consistency throughout the rest of the Revelation for its use of "white" practically demands that the white horse of 6:2 be interpreted as something righteous in some sense or another.

Point 2 - Evil is Depicted as Evil in the Revelation
In the instances where evil is explicitly mentioned, or terrible things are explicitly seen, it is always described with imagery that is negative by connotations.

The Dragon of Revelation 12: In all of history, "dragons" have been seen as terrible and vile monsters. The dragon is not presented as trying to hide its wickedness - it flaunts it by trying to destroy "the woman" and her Child and the rest of her offspring.

The Beast of the Sea of Revelation 13: The beast is described as a twisted amalgamation of a bear, a lion and a leopard - animals that are distinctly known to be violent. Aside from this, the dragon "lends" its power to the beast of the sea. This beast is described as having a "blasphemous" name, as uttering "blasphemies" and "proud words." He directly blasphemes God, and "slanders" the saints. He even makes war upon the saints. He is directly and openly described as being vicious and vile.

The Beast of the Earth of Revelation 13: He is described as speaking as a dragon (again, an instantly negative connotation). He openly kills people who refuse to worship the first beast (the one that is openly vicious and vile).

The Three Unclean Spirits of Revelation 16: They are described as frogs (not very attractive creatures, what with the slime and warts), and they came from the dragon (described in evil terms), and the two beasts (each also described in evil terms).

The Prostitute Babylon of Revelation 17: She is described as committing adultery (a sin), drunkenness (a sin), and murder of the saints and prophets (a sin). She is called "The Mother of ... the Abominations of the Earth."

The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17: The beast is described in the same manner as the Beast of the Earth. He is seen openly warring against the Lamb.

Gog and Magog of Revelation 20: Described as marching to war against God's beloved people.



Of all of the above, yes, the Dragon and the Beast of the Earth (the false prophet) do deceive people. But they are never described with the word "white," and nor are we described how they will appear to the people they deceive. They are all consistently depicted as they appear to God - evil, vile, wicked, sinful, vicious, and terrible. Beasts, dragons, prostitutes. They are all consistently described in relation to their true spiritual selves, and they are never described in relation to how good they may appear to the people they are tricking.

Point 3 - Recognizing John's Consistency
Not only would using the term "white" to describe even one of these evil things (even in their "masquerade") break the consistency of "white = righteousness" as presented in Point 1, it would also break the consistency that "evil is depicted as evil" as shown above in Point 2.

Sure, there will be deceivers. But the Revelation always shows them for what they really are, not for what they pretend to be. Interpreting 6:2 as such only breaks the consistency of "white equals good" and "evil is described as evil".

If John had actually said something or was told something to the extent that "the white horse is actually bad," then that might hold some ground. But he was never told such a thing, he never says such a thing, so one must interpret the passage in consistency with the rest of the book, which results in entirely the opposite notion of "the white horse is a bad guy pretending to be good," since we never see "white" used in relation to bad, and we never see "evil" described in terms of good throughout the whole of the book.

Thank you for the plethora of passages.:) Yet none of these are being contrasted with passages that depict the identity of the rider. These passages that "prove" that the rider is the Gospel are not about the Gospel but about your interpretation of the meaning of white - and it's explicit meaning of goodness.

Revelation 6:2 doesn't mention the color of the rider, only the color of the horse he is on. If it were the Gospel, that would mean that the first seal was already opened. Why would the Lord show John something that had already happened by the time he saw the visions of Revelation?

I.e. Pentecost had long gone when John saw Revelation on the island of Patmos.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door having been opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these things.

The voice that calls John into heaven to receive the 6:2 vision of the white horse and rider says that these things will be future events.

Why can't it be the Antichrist? Why does this offend your eschatological views?

vinsight4u8
Sep 10th 2008, 05:10 AM
Is there a connection between the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6, and the horses seen by Zechariah in chapters 1 and 6?

In Chapter 1 Zechariah sees a man on a red horse, and behind him riders on red, white and speckled horses. They seem to be doing reconnaissance for the Lord. In Chapter 6 Zechariah sees four teams of horses harnessed to chariots. The horses are black, white, red, and spotted. They are given permission to scatter and walk the earth, but don’t really do much. The black and white teams go to the North country and bring peace.

Let the mountains of brass be showing us to place this prophecy in the latter days of the Greek Empire area. Daniel too saw that the Greek kingdom would not be finished till the end days.
Let the horses of Zechariah show us the four spirits of the heavens.
use the KJV

these are the four spirts of the heavens

What does that mean?
Well, look at Isaiah 11:1-2. Why? Because Jesus will rule on the planet from His throne- and to do that will take - spirits.

Compare that spirits part to Proverbs 8 as to what all rulers of the earth need.

wisdom
understanding

counsel
strength (might)

knowledge

fear of the LORD

Zechariah chapter 5 ended by showing us that a kindom - a house / palace is to arise again in the land of Shinar at that appointed time.
Shinar - would where be ancient Babylon was.
/today Iraq

So Iraq was to rise. It would be established - a kingdom - build it a house.
To do this project - wiil take the spirits of rulers.

Joyfulparousia
Sep 10th 2008, 05:14 AM
the whole of revelation is used to support ideas.
it is a constant theme in revelation that the beasts represent evil.
when the AC gets adressed the language clearly says that e.g lamblike beast Rev13:11

the living creatures in Rev4 is not evil, hence they are not called beasts.
The white horse is not evil, hence it is not called a beast.

bennie

In the KJV the Rev 4 creatures are called beasts.

third hero
Sep 10th 2008, 05:35 AM
This sentence doesn't make sense to me.

The sentence was suppose to say that we are to judge the horsemen as symbols, meaning in order to determine what they meant, we have to disect their meaning by disecting the symbols that are a part of them.


Where is this in the bible?

Have you read any of the OT? The Bow is symbolized in many passages along the Old Testament. The Meaning of the bow was the same as the meaning of the horn, and you can go to any dictionary or encyclopedia to read that for yourself. I do not have to find definitions of symbols in the Bible in order to recognize that those symbols are indeed symbols.

This question makes absolutely no sense to me. Is the bow not a symbol because the Bible does not define it as so, even though it uses the Bow as a symbol more than any other book that we have today?



I didn't say Jesus had horns.

joyful.....
If you do not understand the content, please feel free to ask me or look up the meaning of what I write to you using either a dictionary, an encyclopedia, or any other reference book that may aid you in understanding what I am saying.

I'll say it again. Notice that in the entire book of Revelation, Jesus is not described with horns. Notice also that the white horse and rider do not have horns. However, the Beast, who you call the Antichrist, when described, have horns. The dragon has horns. Even the false prophet is described with horns on it's head. The horns in all of these cases represent strength, but it is used to describe evil strength. This is why every comic book writer, when drawing a devil, always have horns on their heads. This is also why Hellboy, who was born a demon, has his horn broken, symbolizing that the evil that was his is broken from him, and his evil power is gone. Again, the horn itself is a symbol, like the bow, and in Revelation, both are used. One to describe the strength of something Holy, (bow), and the other to describe the strength of something evil, (horn).

My point? Whether or not a bow is used to shoot arrows does not play any role in determining whether the bow written in Revelation 6 is literal or symbolic. Therefore, one can not determine that the white horse is the Antichrist because he has a weapon. Remember, Jesus has a two-edged sword in His mouth when He returns. Does that make Him evil?



Then why did you give me the antiquity meaning?

You seem to think that because the rider of the white horse has a weapon, it automatically causes him to be something evil, which is completely incorrect. A bow shoots arrows, but that has nothing to do with why the bow was written there, or whether it can be used to determine whether this symbol is that of the Gospel, or that of the AntiChrist. The proper use of a symbolic word will convey the true meaning of a passage, and thus is the reason why I told you what the bow symbolized in antiquity.



You've injected something into passage by assuming that the rider is in heaven. Pretty sure it doesn't mention where this coronation happens. John is in heaven, but the horses are on the earth. Are you suggesting that the all the other horses and their riders are riding along in heaven with the white horse? Secondly, for your interpretation to make sense, the Gospel has to be on the earth. Thirdly, John saw and wrote Revelation after Pentecost, so what would be the purpose of having digressive revelation of a past event?

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of what the passage is and what it means by you. Where is Jesus when this seal is broken? IN heaven. Where was the horse? In heaven. There was no mentioning of it being anywhere else but in the place where Lord Jesus opened the first seal. This, again, is a symbol, with no literal meaning to it other than what the horse represents. I assumed nothing. It is my opinion that you injected something that clearly is not there. Like I have stated, Jesus, the scroll, and all of the seals were in heaven, where the horse popped out of. The scenery did not change simply because the seal had been broken.

NOw understand this. The horses, the horsemen, and all of the seaqls of Revelation 6-7 are all symbols of what God is doing to bring about the end. It is appropriate for me to say that the first horseman is indeed representative of the overwhelming power, authority and might of the Gospel. The Gospel was not "unleashed" when the Lord opened the first seal. The only thing revealed by the opening of the first seal is that the Lord wanted all of us to know that before anything else can happen, the Gospel must be spread, and thus the rider of the white horse. The White horse represents the power and the spreading of the Gospel to all mankind, destroying Satanic strongholds and gaining strength by the minute. It represent's God's unyielding determination to gain as many of us humans into His kingdom as are willing, and thus sent the Gospel forth, conquering and bent on conquest.

Whether or not the unleashing of the Gospel happened before John wrote this book or not, the point of the white horse was easily received back then. Before any of the other seals are broken, before any of the other signs of the end were to happen, the church must conquer and be bent on conquest. The church wasn't born when the seal was broken, the church's purpose was exalted before the Lord then, when the seal was broken.


So the Lord doesn't give authority to people who misuse it?

So you are continuing to say that the Beast was admitted into heaven? By Lord Jesus? Are you sure you want to say that?



You seem to think that it did, but that doesn't convince me of anything. Is there another verse that describes this conquering Gospel riding forth?

Acts 1:8. You might want to read it.


And this is text book of the same tactic - What color is the Word? Was it white? Did it have a bow, or horns?

Well, the Lord was described three times in Revelation. In all three of them, He was described with the color white. Hair white as snow, riding on a white horse, just to name a couple. In any of these cases, was Jesus viewed in any other light other than holy? In Revelation 15, those beheaded were given white robes. Where they agents of deception? Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20, was that viewed as being Satan's throne room? Consistency is the key to understanding the symbolic definition of the colors in Revelation. John consistantly described holy people and righteous people as beingt people clothed in white. Jesus has a white horse. Is suddenly an agent of deception given the color white, when in every other mentioning of him, the color was not used? (Revelation chapters 13, 16, 17, & 19).


Yes he was given authority over the entire planet, I'd say it's not a far stretch to say he had a crown on. Was the Gospel given a crown?

What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?



God did; the passage doesn't mention where the rider was in relation to heaven and earth, but God was defintely in heaven when He raised up this king.


And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:2

Are you sure God gave the beast that authority and crown? Looks to me asa though Satan did it, and therefore, since at the point of the Beast's advent, Satan was cast out of heaven, the beast had gained no authority or crown from heaven. Again, this is one of the VAST diffferences that I was talking about earlier.


Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be come contradiction with these 2 statements.

Actually, there is no contradiction in any of the statements that I have given to you. I asked questions for a reason, and that reason is to have you, the one I am questioning, read the book of Revelation and foind that answer.

Joyful, it appears to me that you want ot change my mind concerning the White horse, based on what someone else told you. I mean, you say that God gave the Beast a crown when Revelation 13:2 clearly says that Satan did? I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that you have not read Revelation for yourself yet, and with that in mind, I humbly ask you to take the time to read this delightful book. I am not trying to be combative, or antagonistic. I am only saying that in order for you to debate this issue, you have to have read the book, and the answer you have given me tells me that you have not. So please, do read Revelation.

markedward
Sep 10th 2008, 04:51 PM
Thank you for the plethora of passages.:) Yet none of these are being contrasted with passages that depict the identity of the rider. These passages that "prove" that the rider is the Gospel are not about the Gospel but about your interpretation of the meaning of white - and it's explicit meaning of goodness.

Revelation 6:2 doesn't mention the color of the rider, only the color of the horse he is on.The color of the horse, the rider, it makes little difference. The important thing is that the color "white" is being used, and it is explicitly used throughout the whole book to singularly identify righteousness. I didn't say it was specifically the Gospel, but I did say that it must be interpreted in the same sense the "white stone" is interpreted or the "white robes" are interpreted, being that the "white horse" of chapter 6 represents something righteous and good, whatever it may be.


If it were the Gospel, that would mean that the first seal was already opened. Why would the Lord show John something that had already happened by the time he saw the visions of Revelation?You should read chapter 12. The first chunk is a prophecy about events that had already happened.


Why can't it be the Antichrist? Why does this offend your eschatological views?I didn't say it "offends" me. Please don't make assumptions about my attitude. I never said or suggested that it "offended" me. All I said was that, in the scope of the entire book of Revelation and John's consistent use of "white" as a symbol for righteousness only (and not evil pretenders) and his consistent descriptions of evil as evil (and never describing them as what they will pretend to be), it simply doesn't fit.


In the KJV the Rev 4 creatures are called beasts.In the Greek, a completely different word is used for the "four living creatures" than the word used for the evil beasts.

The word used for the four beings is the Greek word zoon. The word is rooted in the Greek word zao, which means "living" or "breathing." This word is only used in the Revelation to refer to the four beings who surround God's throne, and never the evil beasts.

The word used for the evil beasts is the Greek word therion. It comes from the Greek word thera, literally meaning "a wild animal" or denoting something ferocious and wild.

So the best translation for the four beings is "the four living creatures" or something similar, while the evil ones are directly called "beasts."

ross3421
Sep 10th 2008, 08:22 PM
These four horses in chapter 6 work together for the kingdom of Satan. The key is understanding that these "four" are the same as the four beasts. These four are seen rising up together upon the earth in Rev 13. These are the same four in Dan. 7.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Now we know in Rev 13 and Dan 7 that all four are together and that they are in one accord with thier purpose. Likewise these four horses are the same. Again it does not make sense for another group of four to be a combination good/evil. A closer look into the following phrase will shed light onto thier prupose as we see each wil rule over 1/4 of the land at the time when this kingdom is upon the earth.

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

So the first horse has power over 1/4 the second 1/4 the third 1/4 and the fourth 1/4.

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1


Da 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.



Mark

gophgetter
Sep 10th 2008, 09:47 PM
The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other. The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.

The number 4 in scripture is symbolic of time or the completion of a cycle. The sun and the moon were created on the fourth day and they were given for times and seasons. The fourth commandment had to do with the Sabbath day which was the end of the week. There are four watches in the night. There are 4 seasons. When winter is over, spring comes and we start the cycle all over again. There are 4 phases of the moon. This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4 and also why there are 4 horses. Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals. The lion- the white horse, the calf- the red horse, the man- the black horse, and the eagle- the pale horse. There is a reason for this. The lion introduces the opening of the 1st seal. Jesus is called the lion of the tribe of Judah in Rev. 5. As has been said more than once, the color white in Revelation is exclusively used to picture Jesus Christ (or righteousness).

The calf introduces the next horse which is called "another horse". The color red symbolizes man or the spirit of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is the beginning of the decline or falling away of the church from the truth that it was established on by Jesus Christ himself. The reason that it is a calf that introduces this seal is because a calf is a picture of sacrifice. It was during this time period that the Apostles began to be put to death and the saints began to be persecuted.

The man introduces the next horse and the picture of this horse is black. The color black is used to picture darkness that had began to set in the church. The pair of balances in the hand of the rider with a measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny pictured the measure of truth compared to the measure of false doctrine that was present in this time period. Barley is a substitute for wheat. As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, then men began to bring in damnable heresies and pervert the truth of the Word of God. Even though this was taking place, God still watched over the church because He said "see that you hurt not the oil or the wine". The oil representing understanding and the wine representing the Spirit.

The next beast that introduces the 4th seal is the eagle and the color of this horse is pale which represents death. In fact, the rider of this horse is called death and hell followed after it. This time period coincides with Rev. 12 where it said that unto the woman (the church) were given two wings of a great eagle, where she might fly into the wilderness where she had a place prepared for her that they might feed her for 1,260 days which is the 1,260 years of the dark ages( a day for a year).

When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.

The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.

Goph

DigReal
Sep 10th 2008, 11:18 PM
Can't say as I have anything more to add that might clarify the identity of the first rider. I did arrive at this discussion with the opinion (but not certainty) that this rider is the AC, and felt the color of the horse only represented the purpose of the rider (in this case to deceive men of his righteousness). I just want to let folks know that I now feel more certain he is the AC, thanks to the evidence and reasoning cited. :pp

One thing I always felt sure of though (before and after this thread)... the description given of the first rider feels almost casual, certainly not worthy of any description of our Lord that I've read anywhere else. And certainly unlike John would describe Him.... where's the excitement, love, and great respect John always shows? Maybe it's just my imagination, but I usually feel the connection.

Anyways, just want to thank everyone who's contributed thus far. Good thread :thumbsup:

Joyfulparousia
Sep 11th 2008, 10:33 AM
The sentence was suppose to say that we are to judge the horsemen as symbols, meaning in order to determine what they meant, we have to disect their meaning by disecting the symbols that are a part of them.



Have you read any of the OT? The Bow is symbolized in many passages along the Old Testament. The Meaning of the bow was the same as the meaning of the horn, and you can go to any dictionary or encyclopedia to read that for yourself. I do not have to find definitions of symbols in the Bible in order to recognize that those symbols are indeed symbols.

This question makes absolutely no sense to me. Is the bow not a symbol because the Bible does not define it as so, even though it uses the Bow as a symbol more than any other book that we have today?




joyful.....
If you do not understand the content, please feel free to ask me or look up the meaning of what I write to you using either a dictionary, an encyclopedia, or any other reference book that may aid you in understanding what I am saying.

I'll say it again. Notice that in the entire book of Revelation, Jesus is not described with horns. Notice also that the white horse and rider do not have horns. However, the Beast, who you call the Antichrist, when described, have horns. The dragon has horns. Even the false prophet is described with horns on it's head. The horns in all of these cases represent strength, but it is used to describe evil strength. This is why every comic book writer, when drawing a devil, always have horns on their heads. This is also why Hellboy, who was born a demon, has his horn broken, symbolizing that the evil that was his is broken from him, and his evil power is gone. Again, the horn itself is a symbol, like the bow, and in Revelation, both are used. One to describe the strength of something Holy, (bow), and the other to describe the strength of something evil, (horn).

My point? Whether or not a bow is used to shoot arrows does not play any role in determining whether the bow written in Revelation 6 is literal or symbolic. Therefore, one can not determine that the white horse is the Antichrist because he has a weapon. Remember, Jesus has a two-edged sword in His mouth when He returns. Does that make Him evil?




You seem to think that because the rider of the white horse has a weapon, it automatically causes him to be something evil, which is completely incorrect. A bow shoots arrows, but that has nothing to do with why the bow was written there, or whether it can be used to determine whether this symbol is that of the Gospel, or that of the AntiChrist. The proper use of a symbolic word will convey the true meaning of a passage, and thus is the reason why I told you what the bow symbolized in antiquity.




Again, this shows a misunderstanding of what the passage is and what it means by you. Where is Jesus when this seal is broken? IN heaven. Where was the horse? In heaven. There was no mentioning of it being anywhere else but in the place where Lord Jesus opened the first seal. This, again, is a symbol, with no literal meaning to it other than what the horse represents. I assumed nothing. It is my opinion that you injected something that clearly is not there. Like I have stated, Jesus, the scroll, and all of the seals were in heaven, where the horse popped out of. The scenery did not change simply because the seal had been broken.

NOw understand this. The horses, the horsemen, and all of the seaqls of Revelation 6-7 are all symbols of what God is doing to bring about the end. It is appropriate for me to say that the first horseman is indeed representative of the overwhelming power, authority and might of the Gospel. The Gospel was not "unleashed" when the Lord opened the first seal. The only thing revealed by the opening of the first seal is that the Lord wanted all of us to know that before anything else can happen, the Gospel must be spread, and thus the rider of the white horse. The White horse represents the power and the spreading of the Gospel to all mankind, destroying Satanic strongholds and gaining strength by the minute. It represent's God's unyielding determination to gain as many of us humans into His kingdom as are willing, and thus sent the Gospel forth, conquering and bent on conquest.

Whether or not the unleashing of the Gospel happened before John wrote this book or not, the point of the white horse was easily received back then. Before any of the other seals are broken, before any of the other signs of the end were to happen, the church must conquer and be bent on conquest. The church wasn't born when the seal was broken, the church's purpose was exalted before the Lord then, when the seal was broken.



So you are continuing to say that the Beast was admitted into heaven? By Lord Jesus? Are you sure you want to say that?




Acts 1:8. You might want to read it.



Well, the Lord was described three times in Revelation. In all three of them, He was described with the color white. Hair white as snow, riding on a white horse, just to name a couple. In any of these cases, was Jesus viewed in any other light other than holy? In Revelation 15, those beheaded were given white robes. Where they agents of deception? Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20, was that viewed as being Satan's throne room? Consistency is the key to understanding the symbolic definition of the colors in Revelation. John consistantly described holy people and righteous people as beingt people clothed in white. Jesus has a white horse. Is suddenly an agent of deception given the color white, when in every other mentioning of him, the color was not used? (Revelation chapters 13, 16, 17, & 19).



What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?





And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:2

Are you sure God gave the beast that authority and crown? Looks to me asa though Satan did it, and therefore, since at the point of the Beast's advent, Satan was cast out of heaven, the beast had gained no authority or crown from heaven. Again, this is one of the VAST diffferences that I was talking about earlier.



Actually, there is no contradiction in any of the statements that I have given to you. I asked questions for a reason, and that reason is to have you, the one I am questioning, read the book of Revelation and foind that answer.

Joyful, it appears to me that you want ot change my mind concerning the White horse, based on what someone else told you. I mean, you say that God gave the Beast a crown when Revelation 13:2 clearly says that Satan did? I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that you have not read Revelation for yourself yet, and with that in mind, I humbly ask you to take the time to read this delightful book. I am not trying to be combative, or antagonistic. I am only saying that in order for you to debate this issue, you have to have read the book, and the answer you have given me tells me that you have not. So please, do read Revelation.

Thanks, this was insightful. :)

I wasn't seeking to change your mind, only to present my rendered interpretation of the text. Someone asked what the white horse meant and I think it fair for all to present to those who may not know the main views of interpretation and some helpful insights (which I believe has been done:)).

Blessings,

Joyful

Joyfulparousia
Sep 11th 2008, 10:36 AM
In the Greek, a completely different word is used for the "four living creatures" than the word used for the evil beasts.

The word used for the four beings is the Greek word zoon. The word is rooted in the Greek word zao, which means "living" or "breathing." This word is only used in the Revelation to refer to the four beings who surround God's throne, and never the evil beasts.

The word used for the evil beasts is the Greek word therion. It comes from the Greek word thera, literally meaning "a wild animal" or denoting something ferocious and wild.

So the best translation for the four beings is "the four living creatures" or something similar, while the evil ones are directly called "beasts."

I knew you'd catch that one ;):lol:

ross3421
Sep 11th 2008, 12:09 PM
The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other.

It does not say they are in succession rather it implies the opposite. Your thinking is dereived from the notion that these four are the same four kingdoms noted in chapter 2. This is a most common error. Actually these four beasts are a description of the four which come out of the third kingdom in chapter 2.

Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.

So what kingdom are we living? We have yet seen this fourth beast thus this would mean we are still in the third kingdom of Grecia.........

Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

What I am saying is that we have yet seen the third kingdom broken into four parts in which all these beasts arise together however the fourth beast in time overcomes the others and becomes the fourth kingdom.

1 Babylon
2 Media Persia
3 Grecia

4 Lion
Bear
Leopard
Beast



This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4

Yes. They are all seen together and not one after another. As in God's kingdom there are four beasts likewise so will Satan's kingdom.


Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals.

Exactly my point. The four beasts around the throne which are all good are introducing another four beasts which of course are not them but another. These beasts are all evil.

The first four seals is the kingdom of Satan taking hold on the earth. The first seal we see that he will promote the gospel and claim the fulfillment thereof. The second we see those on earth delivering those to death which choose not to serve and receive the mark. The third we see the power and control and riches which is for those whom receive him. This will be at no cost for them ie penny and thus they will worship him as seen in the instruments of the oil and wine. The fourth is this king seeking all those which are opposed to him and do not receive his mark.

If you look at he above this is pretty much what happens when Christ also appears on the earth.



When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.

The 5th seal represents the reign of the little horn and as he goes to destroy those against him.


The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

No. We have not yet seen this rider........


Mark

Joyfulparousia
Sep 11th 2008, 01:25 PM
The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other. The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.

The number 4 in scripture is symbolic of time or the completion of a cycle. The sun and the moon were created on the fourth day and they were given for times and seasons. The fourth commandment had to do with the Sabbath day which was the end of the week. There are four watches in the night. There are 4 seasons. When winter is over, spring comes and we start the cycle all over again. There are 4 phases of the moon. This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4 and also why there are 4 horses. Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals. The lion- the white horse, the calf- the red horse, the man- the black horse, and the eagle- the pale horse. There is a reason for this. The lion introduces the opening of the 1st seal. Jesus is called the lion of the tribe of Judah in Rev. 5. As has been said more than once, the color white in Revelation is exclusively used to picture Jesus Christ (or righteousness).

The calf introduces the next horse which is called "another horse". The color red symbolizes man or the spirit of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is the beginning of the decline or falling away of the church from the truth that it was established on by Jesus Christ himself. The reason that it is a calf that introduces this seal is because a calf is a picture of sacrifice. It was during this time period that the Apostles began to be put to death and the saints began to be persecuted.

The man introduces the next horse and the picture of this horse is black. The color black is used to picture darkness that had began to set in the church. The pair of balances in the hand of the rider with a measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny pictured the measure of truth compared to the measure of false doctrine that was present in this time period. Barley is a substitute for wheat. As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, then men began to bring in damnable heresies and pervert the truth of the Word of God. Even though this was taking place, God still watched over the church because He said "see that you hurt not the oil or the wine". The oil representing understanding and the wine representing the Spirit.

The next beast that introduces the 4th seal is the eagle and the color of this horse is pale which represents death. In fact, the rider of this horse is called death and hell followed after it. This time period coincides with Rev. 12 where it said that unto the woman (the church) were given two wings of a great eagle, where she might fly into the wilderness where she had a place prepared for her that they might feed her for 1,260 days which is the 1,260 years of the dark ages( a day for a year).

When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.

The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.

Goph

I can't see anything that really links the 4 beasts and the 4 horses together except some general application. Things like: "they're bad", or "there are 4".

gophgetter
Sep 11th 2008, 05:50 PM
Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

gophgetter
Sep 11th 2008, 06:02 PM
It does not say they are in succession rather it implies the opposite. Your thinking is dereived from the notion that these four are the same four kingdoms noted in chapter 2. This is a most common error. Actually these four beasts are a description of the four which come out of the third kingdom in chapter 2.

Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.



So what kingdom are we living? We have yet seen this fourth beast thus this would mean we are still in the third kingdom of Grecia.........

Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

What I am saying is that we have yet seen the third kingdom broken into four parts in which all these beasts arise together however the fourth beast in time overcomes the others and becomes the fourth kingdom.

1 Babylon
2 Media Persia
3 Grecia

4 Lion
Bear
Leopard
Beast




Yes. They are all seen together and not one after another. As in God's kingdom there are four beasts likewise so will Satan's kingdom.



Exactly my point. The four beasts around the throne which are all good are introducing another four beasts which of course are not them but another. These beasts are all evil.

The first four seals is the kingdom of Satan taking hold on the earth. The first seal we see that he will promote the gospel and claim the fulfillment thereof. The second we see those on earth delivering those to death which choose not to serve and receive the mark. The third we see the power and control and riches which is for those whom receive him. This will be at no cost for them ie penny and thus they will worship him as seen in the instruments of the oil and wine. The fourth is this king seeking all those which are opposed to him and do not receive his mark.

If you look at he above this is pretty much what happens when Christ also appears on the earth.




The 5th seal represents the reign of the little horn and as he goes to destroy those against him.



Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

No. We have not yet seen this rider........


Mark

The 4 beasts in Daniel 7 are the 4 kingdoms from Babylon to Rome. You jumped to the 8th chapter to try to support your interpretation when the answer is in the context of the same chapter.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

You also said, forgive me, I do not know how to do multiquotes, that the four living creatures are good beasts that introduce evil beasts. This is not supported by the scriptures. John does not call the riders nor the horses that are introduced by the living creatures beasts. Let's keep everything in context, shall we.

Peace, Goph

ross3421
Sep 12th 2008, 10:29 AM
The 4 beasts in Daniel 7 are the 4 kingdoms from Babylon to Rome.

First there is a reason why the fourth kingdom is unnamed.....it is never called Rome is it? This is yours and many other asumptions (though for a time I too believe it was Rome). The fourth kingdom is the kingdom of Satan upon the earth and it has no name.

Second, who are these four which come out of the THIRD kingdom whereby a fierce king will stand but be destroy without hand?

Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.



You jumped to the 8th chapter to try to support your interpretation when the answer is in the context of the same chapter.

I know you understand that as in Rev there is much overlaps in Daniel.



that the four living creatures are good beasts that introduce evil beasts. This is not supported by the scriptures. John does not call the riders nor the horses that are introduced by the living creatures beasts. Let's keep everything in context, shall we.

Peace, Goph

Actually those riding the horses are the beasts. The four beasts are each riding a horse. In turn these four beasts are in reallity kings.

Mark

bennie
Sep 13th 2008, 01:40 PM
First there is a reason why the fourth kingdom is unnamed.....it is never called Rome is it? This is yours and many other asumptions (though for a time I too believe it was Rome). The fourth kingdom is the kingdom of Satan upon the earth and it has no name.

Second, who are these four which come out of the THIRD kingdom whereby a fierce king will stand but be destroy without hand?

Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.




I know you understand that as in Rev there is much overlaps in Daniel.




Actually those riding the horses are the beasts. The four beasts are each riding a horse. In turn these four beasts are in reallity kings.

Mark


mark,

you can not merge chapter 8 with chapter 7. it is two seperate and destint prophecys. if you merge them, change the order that dan 7 was given in, then every body can chop and change as they wish. God gave them in the order they are for a reason. If we can not Trust His authority to tell us in what order stuff goes, who on this rock that we call earth can we trust to tell us.
Now i do believe that the horn power in daniel 8 is not antiochus epiphanes. I do believe that is Satan himself.

bennie

Mograce2U
Sep 13th 2008, 04:32 PM
Since thunder precedes the opening of the seals here is one passage from of all places Hannah's prayer:

(1 Sam 2:10 KJV) The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

And from the signs sent upon Pharoah & Egypt we have this one about what it accomplishes when it is over:

(Exo 9:28-29 KJV) Entreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer. {29} And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the Lord's.

The first mention of a bow [H7198] is seen after the flood when it is given as a sign to Noah of the Lord's covenant with the earth to never destroy it by water again. A bow is a weapon of war which this rainbow symbolizes - what can this be saying except that the Lord will not destroy the earth like this again but will fight for it? (Gen 9)

Also Ezekiel's vision of the Lord compares the glory of the Lord to this bow:

(Ezek 1:28 KJV) As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

And since an arrow goes without saying as what a bow shoots:

(Zec 9:14-15 KJV) And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. {15} The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar...

In Zec 1 & 6 we are introduced to the 4 horses as being spirits sent by the Lord into the earth. First 3 are sent to bring back a report (the black one is not sent for this), then all 4 are sent to work judgment.

Ezekiel also speaks according to these horses & riders we see in Rev 6:

(Ezek 14:21 KJV) For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

All of these elements are depicted for us here in Rev as we are introduced to the heavenly glory of the Lamb - in whose faces of the cherubim He is depicted as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the calf of the burnt offering, the Messiah - Son of man, and as a flying eagle (Lord of Hosts).

When a cloud is sent over the earth, His bow appears - the sign of His covenant promise; thus His coming in the clouds of judgment reveals He is doing it.

John is given a vision into the heavenly realm where he sees angels as horses & winds sent from heaven to accomplish the word of the Lord's prophecy in the earth. The prophetic language in the past that was used to describe such things before is utilized here in the same manner.

(Zec 10:1-6 KJV) Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. {2} For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd. {3} Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. {4} Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. {5} And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded. {6} And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.

The rider on the white horse is not a man, it is the angel of the Lord of Hosts accomplishing this victory thru these other spiritual beings who do the Lord's will. While it is metaphorically spoken to us, these are also literal realities from the heavenly point of view, which the opening of these seals now gives us understanding of what prophecy foretold.

(Mat 16:15-19 KJV) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? {16} And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. {17} And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. {18} And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. {19} And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

vinsight4u8
Sep 14th 2008, 03:19 AM
Let the four sore judgments part be only for the time of the rider of the 4th seal (ac).
Let the horses - be the four spirits of the heavens.

white
the spirit of wisdom and with understanding one gets a crown

rider of the first seal
gets a crown

started a nation
the nation of the north country / Iraq

in righteousness judges and makes war - Rev. 19 - riding on white

Judges 5 - riding on white - judge righteously


The black horses in Zechariah 6 went to the north country and the white went right behind them.

so in Iraq
are white and black horses
waiting for riders

Only Iraq - the Euphrates River land can mount the riders.

vinsight4u8
Sep 14th 2008, 03:21 AM
Reading Deuteronomy chapter 1 can show how Israel too began with rulers that were to be
wise
and understanding,

and they were to possess the land -
go in and possess the land
start the nation.

ross3421
Sep 14th 2008, 05:18 AM
mark,

you can not merge chapter 8 with chapter 7. it is two seperate and destint prophecys. if you merge them, change the order that dan 7 was given in, then every body can chop and change as they wish. God gave them in the order they are for a reason. If we can not Trust His authority to tell us in what order stuff goes, who on this rock that we call earth can we trust to tell us.

bennie

Both chapters are describing the same events.

Chapter 8

Verses 1-7 - Describe Media and Persia and the battle between Grecia. So right there you have not a seperate prophecy but detail of these kingdoms mentioned in chapter 2.

Verse 8- We see the third kingdom (Grecia) broken into fours. This where I am saying these fours are the 4 beasts which are mentioned in chapter 7.

Verse 9-27 - Basically speaks of this little horn which arises out of these four. The perfectly parrallels chapter 7.


So what we have are two chapters giving us additional detail in different formats. The only thing chapter 7 omits is the struggle between Media Persia and Grecia.


Now i do believe that the horn power in daniel 8 is not antiochus epiphanes. I do believe that is Satan himself.

Who then are the four which come out of the third kingdom?

I ask the same question a few years ago and came up with that it must be the four beasts. The only way to get around this is to say they are four generals and so on.... When one goes to answer this question then the answer is clear becuase it cannot be the four kingdoms in chapter 2.

1. Babylon
2. Media Persia
3. Grecia
4. Fourth kingdom

The four which come out of the third kigdom

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?


Mark