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Fenris
Sep 7th 2008, 07:06 PM
ark of the covenant, Moses staff, holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc

Do these things exist and do they have Power?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 7th 2008, 07:47 PM
Those are Roman Catholic things. They don't mean anything to me as it is not the 'things' that have power. It is God! I believe they are idols to those who seek power from them. Now the ark of the covenant would be an interesting find archaeologically but still it's not meant for us to worship IT.

historyb
Sep 7th 2008, 07:50 PM
ark of the covenant, Moses staff, holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc


Ark of the Covenant - Not a Catholic "thing"

Moses staff - Not a Catholic "thing"

Christian things = holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc

Even Paul had a prayer cloth that he prayed over

Pwer - No they don't in and of themseleves

Ta-An
Sep 7th 2008, 07:52 PM
ark of the covenant, Moses staff, that you should know....
holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc

Do these things exist and do they have Power? :odon't know anything about that .... like S2S says... they are RC 'thingys'

BrckBrln
Sep 7th 2008, 07:53 PM
I like to think that the ark and the holy grail still exist (don't know much about the others). I agree they don't have power in and of themselves though. As for the spear of destiny, just watch Constantine. :)

BrckBrln
Sep 7th 2008, 07:54 PM
that you should know.... :odon't know anything about that .... like S2S says... they are RC 'thingys'

How is the holy grail a 'Catholic thing'?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 7th 2008, 08:00 PM
How is the holy grail a 'Catholic thing'?The 'thing' part! ;) Of course they are historical things but I don't think the 'things' have any power as many RCs do. Do you get my meaning now? :hmm:

historyb
Sep 7th 2008, 08:15 PM
So if someone bar-b-qued at Church would that be a Holy Grill? :lol:

apothanein kerdos
Sep 7th 2008, 08:18 PM
The first two probably still exist, though we don't know where they are and I see no reason to believe they have intrinsic power within them.

The latter are just silly. :)

There is no reason the Roman government would have found the Cross of any importance and most likely reused it. Same with the spear. As for the grail it too was most likely used again and again, eventually being cast into obscurity.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 7th 2008, 08:20 PM
So if someone bar-b-qued at Church would that be a Holy Grill? :lol:Now THAT would likely get a bunch of Protestants there! :D

AngelAuthor
Sep 7th 2008, 09:07 PM
How is the holy grail a 'Catholic thing'?
Because it's nothing more than a cup that Christ used. Only reason it's called the "Holy Grail" is because the Catholics say so.

Why isn't there a "Holy Plate" that the bread was served on or a "Holy bowl" that Jesus dipped the bread in, or the "Holy Pillow" that he was reclining on that night...

There is no "Holy Grail" It's a Catholic invention.

Fenris
Sep 7th 2008, 10:41 PM
Wow, I didn't know that holy relics was a RC thing. I thought they were a Christian thing. :hmm: But the opinions here are pretty much all the same.

KATA_LOUKAN
Sep 7th 2008, 10:51 PM
veil of veronica

The whole Veronica narrative was an extra-biblical addition to the passion story made by the Catholic church, although it appeared in the Passion of the Christ.


Wow, I didn't know that holy relics was a RC thing.

Pretty much. Also in Eastern Orthodox churches as well.

This is really interesting. There is a rating system of relics in the RCC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic

Toymom
Sep 8th 2008, 01:43 AM
I thought the holy grail was a Monty Python thing.
The whole praying to and venerating relics is a Catholic thing.
I don't think any other Christian groups as a whole are into that nonsense.

Ta-An
Sep 8th 2008, 10:48 AM
How is the holy grail a 'Catholic thing'?I have no cooking clue what that is :o

Br. Barnabas
Sep 8th 2008, 08:03 PM
ark of the covenant, Moses staff, holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc

Do these things exist and do they have Power?

I am not a Roman Catholic, but I am a catholic, part of the Anglican Church. I would say that the Holy Relics at least some of them do exist. If they have power is a tricky subject, because it is a yes and no.

The objects in and of themselves do not have power, but God can give them power or work through them. As we see with Paul's cloth and Jesus' robes. In Acts 19:11-12 Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons that he had touched healed the sick and those with evil spirits. And the woman with the problem of bleeding when she touched Jesus' robes she was healed.

There are also numerous examples through out history in the RCC and Orthodox and Anglican churches of miracles being preformed through saints relics and certain 'holy' objects. It is like blessed oil that is used to anoint the sick. Is it the relics or oil or any other thing that heals people or that performs the miracle, no it is God. But he is working through the objects.

I have been reading a book on St. Basil of Ostrog, there are many miracles that happen at the feet of his relics. God works through the relics of this saint to heal hundereds of people. It is impossible to deny that some relics have powers that are given to them from God.

However it is not right to worship the relics and I don't know of anyone that worships relics, they worship God. But the relics have been given some power from the divine. Just as some places are more divine then others. Such as the place where Jacob had a dream of angels going up and down from heaven. Or as some people have described it heaven is all around us it is not in the sky somewhere but (for lack of a better term) on a different plan of existance or deminsion and there is (for lack of a better word) thin veil that seperates heaven and earth, just like the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple. And in some places the veil is much thinner or it blows open more easly some places. And some things are able to open it more easly, these are called relics.

Now as to some of the relics that you mentioned they may or may not exist any more or may not have existed at any point. But if they do or did exist all of them I would say might and most likely do have some sort of power given to them from the divine.

Also no one should read this as me promoting RCC or Orthodox doctrine. Because it is not just those that believe in relics, Anglicans, and some other Christian tradations believe in them and I would say that the more charismatic forms of Christianity believe in miracles and people and objects ablity to have been empowered by God to be able to do things.

I embrace the mystic tradition in Christianity. This happens to be one of the things that falls into the mystic cateragories. Because there are many things that cannot be explained, because we have a God that is far more powerful than we can imagine.

Theophilus
Sep 8th 2008, 08:16 PM
:lol:

I'm sorry, Fenris, but I saw your topic heading and immediately pictured Robin the Boy Wonder exclaiming, "Holy relics, Batman!"

Studyin'2Show
Sep 8th 2008, 10:41 PM
As we see with Paul's cloth and Jesus' robes. In Acts 19:11-12 Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons that he had touched healed the sick and those with evil spirits. And the woman with the problem of bleeding when she touched Jesus' robes she was healed. Yeshua said what it was that healed and it wasn't His robe. :rolleyes:

Matthew 9:21-22
21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.

Mark 5:33-34
33 But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.”

Luke 8:47-48
47 Now when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before Him, she declared to Him in the presence of all the people the reason she had touched Him and how she was healed immediately.
48 And He said to her, “Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace.”

It was not His robe that He said had healed her. It was her faith. Our FAITH is what is required, not paying homage to some relic. :rolleyes:

Br. Barnabas
Sep 9th 2008, 02:20 AM
It was not His robe that He said had healed her. It was her faith. Our FAITH is what is required, not paying homage to some relic. :rolleyes:

That is just it, it is God that heals us the relic can do nothing in and of itself but only God that can do something. Again he has made some objects or given some objects special properties that allow more miracles to be performed through them. People who have been healed at relics or through their power do not pay homage to them they praise God for their healing, not some relic. Again, God acts through the relic, but just because a saint or Christ touched some object does not mean that it has healing properties or anything like that. It has to be blessed by God sometimes that happens through a saint or Christ himself, sometimes God just blesses it directly.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 9th 2008, 02:43 AM
That is just it, it is God that heals us the relic can do nothing in and of itself but only God that can do something. Again he has made some objects or given some objects special properties that allow more miracles to be performed through them. People who have been healed at relics or through their power do not pay homage to them they praise God for their healing, not some relic. Again, God acts through the relic, but just because a saint or Christ touched some object does not mean that it has healing properties or anything like that. It has to be blessed by God sometimes that happens through a saint or Christ himself, sometimes God just blesses it directly.That's a difference of perspective. I grew up RC and as they had us kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, you can't tell me there was no worship of things. That's my take on it.

God Bless!

RevLogos
Sep 9th 2008, 03:16 AM
One interesting thing from Islamic eschatology. Near the end-times, a great Muslim world leader, the Mahdi, sets up the global Caliphate in Jerusalem after discovering the Ark of the Covenant. The Mahdi, with the help of a Muslim Jesus, unites the world under belief in Allah, destroying Judaism and Christianity in the process.

I think finding the Ark of the Covenant is supposed to give the Mahdi credibility with the Jews, and help convert Jews and Christians to Islam. Those that do not convert are of course, destroyed.

Fenris
Sep 9th 2008, 11:07 AM
One interesting thing from Islamic eschatology. Near the end-times, a great Muslim world leader, the Mahdi, sets up the global Caliphate in Jerusalem after discovering the Ark of the Covenant. The Mahdi, with the help of a Muslim Jesus, unites the world under belief in Allah, destroying Judaism and Christianity in the process.

I think finding the Ark of the Covenant is supposed to give the Mahdi credibility with the Jews, and help convert Jews and Christians to Islam. Those that do not convert are of course, destroyed.Really? Whoah. That's very interesting! :hmm:

Br. Barnabas
Sep 9th 2008, 12:01 PM
That's a difference of perspective. I grew up RC and as they had us kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, you can't tell me there was no worship of things. That's my take on it.

God Bless!

It's only worship if you, yourself worship it. Kneeling before a relic does not automatically make it worship. When I pass by the altar or the cross is led in front of me in church I bow. It is not because I am worshiping the altar or the cross we have at church, but I do it as a sign of respect to what the cross and the altar represent, the sacrifice of Our Lord and Savior.

The same goes if we had a statue of Mary or if we had some relic, I would show respect to the objects because of what they represent or because God has given them some sort of power.

If some people in the church misunderstand what is going on and choose to worship these objects well that is their mistake. But any deacon, priest, or bishop would be able to clearly explain that those things are not to be worshiped. They are tools which are meant to help us worship God and remember his power and how he has acted through these certain people or objects. Just because some people misunderstand or choose to do something wrong does not make the practice wrong or bad and it should not be thrown out all together. Otherwise some people would have to throw out baptism, because they put too much emphasis on it or credit too much power to it. The same could be said of the practice of spiritual gifts, just because some misunderstand them and go to far with them does not make it bad. For me doing away with the use of relics and icons and statues would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If you don't like the practice that is fine and you don't have to participate in it if you don't want to; but some of us may find it to be a great practice where we form an awesome connection to God.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 9th 2008, 05:46 PM
Too put an idol in front of someone and to say, "Oh, If they mistakenly worship it, it's their fault," is at best irresponsible and at worst despicable. :rolleyes:

Br. Barnabas
Sep 9th 2008, 06:13 PM
Too put an idol in front of someone and to say, "Oh, If they mistakenly worship it, it's their fault," is at best irresponsible and at worst despicable. :rolleyes:

There in lays the problem, many Christians don't see them as idols! If some do then they don't have to have anything to do with them. If others do not and can see them for what they are then they can use them. If you or others see 'holy' objects as idols then by all means cast them away but don't judge the rest of us for seeing 'holy' objects as 'holy' objects and seeing God's might and power in and through them. I thought I had made it very clear that this kind of practice is not for everyone.

Some people might hold up relics and worship them and they become idols in their lives. Some people might hold up the Bible and worship it and it becomes and idol in their lives. Or some people might hold up TV and worship it and it becomes and idol in their lives. Or some might look to a certain preacher and hold him/her up and make him/her an idol in their lives.

I personally have never meet anyone who paid respect to a relic or statue or icon, who treated that object like an idol or worshiped the object itself, in any way, shape, or form. I may have been blessed to have not known anyone like this in my life, because I am not saying that it does not happen. I just don't think that everyone who uses objects in worship or relics makes them into idols.

If the person putting the object in front of the person does not explain to the people that it is not to be worshiped or treated like anything other than a way to connect with God or a way in which God has or does show his power; than that person has done those people a disservice. But I think that anyone doing that would suspect that those there would already have this knowledge or would explain it when it came into place it was being housed. Or if anyone came to him or her with any concern then he or she would be able explain to that person what is really going on with the object.

It is unfair to blame the institute for the mistakes of some people. It is also unfair to make blanket statements that everyone using these objects has made them into idols. Again some might but that does not make the whole practice wrong or bad. If we want to do away with every practice that can be misunderstood or done with a wrong heart, then we will have very little left to do as a religion.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 01:13 AM
Well many do. We are not to do anything that causes our brother to stumble. You said:
If some people in the church misunderstand what is going on and choose to worship these objects well that is their mistake.Is that really loving your brother? :hmm:

tgallison
Sep 10th 2008, 01:17 AM
I have some holy water for sale if any one is interested, also some blessed clothes. Discount for the first fifty callers.

historyb
Sep 10th 2008, 03:21 AM
Do we have Billy Mays here?

http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl3.gif

Br. Barnabas
Sep 10th 2008, 03:38 AM
Well many do. We are not to do anything that causes our brother to stumble. You said: Is that really loving your brother? :hmm:

If many people see it that way the church as a whole cannot be blamed for that. I have seen many protestants and evangelicals worship the Bible or their preacher, just as some RCC or Orthodox might worship relics, but it is usually not the majority, from what I have seen, in either case.

If I saw or thought that someone was worshiping the relic I would of course explain that they should not and explain why, they should not. But if they have had it explained before and choose to reject or ignore that information then that is their own fault. They have had the truth explained to them and have rejected it that is when it becomes there mistake. I don't think this happens often.

Having relics does not automatically make anyone stumble it is when some people do not know how to treat relics or any other item used in worship. If someone has had the truth explained to them then it is their mistake.

But when someone explains what is going on and how to act and the other person ignores that then it does become there mistake. And the other person is no longer responsible for the person who does ignores what has been said.

Just because some people stumble on something that has been done for almost 2,000 years does not mean that it should be thrown out. If we were to do that then we would have to do away with Christianity all together because many of the Jews could not accept Christianity. Since, Jesus is a stumbling block. "Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:22-24).

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 10:25 AM
This has nothing to do with my 'opinion'. Nor should it have anything to do with your opinion or 2000 years of 'tradition', but should have EVERYTHING to do with what the word of God says.

Isaiah 44:9 - Those who make an image, all of them are useless,
And their precious things shall not profit;
They are their own witnesses;
They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed.

Exodus 20:4-6
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God's word seems crystal clear on this. We are not to make any carved or in or places it and molded images of ANYTHING. When I read that for myself in scripture I realized there was something extremely wrong about what I was seeing in church.

God Bless!

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 05:06 PM
ark of the covenant, Moses staff, holy grail, true cross, veil of veronica, spear of destiny, etc etc

Do these things exist and do they have Power?

According to the bible, the ark did "have power", but it was of God.

So I suppose the same could be asked of Jews. Did they believe the ark with the manna, ten commandments tablet, and Aaron's staff have power?

And doesn't the OT even indicate that things like anointing with oil held some significance (power)which all recognized. Just as robes, like Elijah's, and bones, " And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band [of men]; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21)

These are the examples that early Christianity followed.
Of course no one is to become superstitious about such things. But they are to recognize that they are holy (separated) for God, even as each of us are.

Christians are to protect what is holy to God and His Church. Last year I recall the Russian Orthodox protesting Madonna doing a concert there, and it wasn't because of her music, but because of her use of holy icons (such as the cross) of the Church's in a carnal manner.

Any "power" these things suggest is supported by faith. And whatever reverence is given them is also by faith. I kiss the cross after divine liturgy as well as icons, if I am led by my own faith to do so. But it is not because I expect any power from them, but because I love the Lord and the saints, and believe they are present with me here and now always, to ages of ages.

I do not see how anyone can relate these things as idols, when they are associated with God who is no idol.

:)

Fenris
Sep 10th 2008, 05:11 PM
According to the bible, the ark did "have power", but it was of God.

So I suppose the same could be asked of Jews. Did they believe the ark with the manna, ten commandments tablet, and Aaron's staff have power?
...

I do not see how anyone can relate these things as idols, when they are associated with God who is no idol.

:)
A post of yours I can fully agree with.

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 05:14 PM
This has nothing to do with my 'opinion'. Nor should it have anything to do with your opinion or 2000 years of 'tradition', but should have EVERYTHING to do with what the word of God says.

Isaiah 44:9 - Those who make an image, all of them are useless,
And their precious things shall not profit;
They are their own witnesses;
They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed.

Exodus 20:4-6
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God's word seems crystal clear on this. We are not to make any carved or in or places it and molded images of ANYTHING. When I read that for myself in scripture I realized there was something extremely wrong about what I was seeing in church.

God Bless!

Since you were formerly RC, you know this all had to be understood in relation to Christ, who was a man, IOW an icon.

We wouldn't want to make scripture sound contradictory on this matter. The commandment is to not become a slave to created things and thereby worship them. Israel fashioned many things in relation to God and yet they did not worship the created thing.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 05:44 PM
Since you were formerly RC, you know this all had to be understood in relation to Christ, who was a man, IOW an icon.

We wouldn't want to make scripture sound contradictory on this matter. The commandment is to not become a slave to created things and thereby worship them. Israel fashioned many things in relation to God and yet they did not worship the created thing.No, when I began reading the Bible with discernment I was led to get rid of ALL the little statues and trinkets I had acquired through my life. The ark of the covenant and the Tabernacle and the Temple and all the other things God told people to make are not idols but things people decide on their own to make in the image of something in heaven, on earth or under the earth are. Those scriptures are crystal clear. You will not find me kiss any of it. If you want to that's your choice.

God Bless!

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 05:58 PM
No, when I began reading the Bible with discernment I was led to get rid of ALL the little statues and trinkets I had acquired through my life. The ark of the covenant and the Tabernacle and the Temple and all the other things God told people to make are not idols but things people decide on their own to make in the image of something in heaven, on earth or under the earth are. Those scriptures are crystal clear. You will not find me kiss any of it. If you want to that's your choice.

God Bless!

Either you missed my point or don't understand the significance. The historical church councils decided the matter according to Jesus Christ. So basically, if you can't revere or worship any created thing, then you can't worship Jesus Christ.

So your saying Israel decided on their own to make the ark?
Would you also say the first apostle to paint a picture was making an idol?

BTW I'm glad I have a choice (liberty)...to pray and worship, to fast and celebrate feast days, to wear a head covering, to make the sign of the cross, to bow, to make prostrations, light candles, incense, and any other thing that may seem silly to others, but humbles me more to God.

I have a little altar in my living room, is that idol (or idle) worship?

Fenris
Sep 10th 2008, 06:00 PM
You will not find me kiss any of it. If you want to that's your choice.

God Bless!I wouldn't recommend that you kiss the ark anyway. We all know what happened to Uzzah.:note:

Br. Barnabas
Sep 10th 2008, 06:06 PM
This has nothing to do with my 'opinion'. Nor should it have anything to do with your opinion or 2000 years of 'tradition', but should have EVERYTHING to do with what the word of God says.

Isaiah 44:9 - Those who make an image, all of them are useless,
And their precious things shall not profit;
They are their own witnesses;
They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed.

Exodus 20:4-6
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God's word seems crystal clear on this. We are not to make any carved or in or places it and molded images of ANYTHING. When I read that for myself in scripture I realized there was something extremely wrong about what I was seeing in church.

God Bless!

God tells them not to make any image in the likeness of anything "that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath." Yet, he commanded them to make the Ark of the Covenant which had Cherubim on it. As we all know those are angels and something that is in heaven. And he also commands Moses to make the golden serpent and have the people look to it so that they can be healed.

I like what St John of Damascus said: "Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.

We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross... When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them"

The 7th Ecumenical Council decided that icons were not idols and that using them in worship was ok. I would say that the same thing can and does extend to relics. The icons and relics are there to remind us of God and to give us another way to look to him. The relics show his power and good works and also remind us of how we should live as we follow the lives of those who followed after him. As Paul said "Follow my example as, I follow the example of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). We can follow the example of the saints and apostles as they followed Christ, we are still following Christ and trying to get to him. It is much easier when we try and walk in the foot steps of others have followed and provided a great example for us.

If you find icons and relics to be useless that is how you feel but many Christians do not feel that way and it became an issue before to and a large number of bishops and church leaders came down on the issue that it was not. I don't think that most or all or even many of them were ignoring Holy Writ or the groanings of the Holy Spirit. No one is saying that you have to use them, I am not saying that you have to and I am certainly not forcing you to use them. I would expect the same respect, my use of icons or relics does not harm you.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 06:29 PM
I wouldn't recommend that you kiss the ark anyway. We all know what happened to Uzzah.:note::lol: Yes, you would be right to keep your lips to yourself! :D

Uriel - As for the ark, I've already said it is one of the things requisitioned by God. Things He tells us to make....fine. Things we decide to make on our own....not fine. That's my take on it.

God Bless!

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 06:38 PM
My point: if all things were created by God for God, then matter possesses the same theocentricity (the belief that God is the center of all truth in the universe from Websters).

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 07:01 PM
Either you missed my point or don't understand the significance. The historical church councils decided the matter according to Jesus Christ. So basically, if you can't revere or worship any created thing, then you can't worship Jesus Christ.

So your saying Israel decided on their own to make the ark?
Would you also say the first apostle to paint a picture was making an idol?

BTW I'm glad I have a choice (liberty)...to pray and worship, to fast and celebrate feast days, to wear a head covering, to make the sign of the cross, to bow, to make prostrations, light candles, incense, and any other thing that may seem silly to others, but humbles me more to God.

I have a little altar in my living room, is that idol (or idle) worship?What? :o Is Yeshua merely a 'created thing'? He said, "Before Abraham, I AM." All things were created through Him! Do you dare equated Him with a created thing? :hmm:

Let's not confuse things. Fenris put the ark in the same question with things that were not requisitioned by God. I don't. There is a big difference.

Teke, you are free to bow before anything you like. I feel scripture is clear that we should only bow before God. :dunno:

We have a home fellowship so we have an altar and podium in the area where we gather for worship and fellowship. However, I do not bow before IT.

God Bless!

KATA_LOUKAN
Sep 10th 2008, 07:21 PM
One interesting thing from Islamic eschatology. Near the end-times, a great Muslim world leader, the Mahdi, sets up the global Caliphate in Jerusalem after discovering the Ark of the Covenant. The Mahdi, with the help of a Muslim Jesus, unites the world under belief in Allah, destroying Judaism and Christianity in the process.

I think finding the Ark of the Covenant is supposed to give the Mahdi credibility with the Jews, and help convert Jews and Christians to Islam. Those that do not convert are of course, destroyed.


True, although most Muslims (85-90%) don't believe this.

Its mostly confined to our pal Ahmadinejad and the Shi'i Muslims.

But in order for this prophecy to occur, the sun will need to rise in the West. So you don't have much to worry about.

Br. Barnabas
Sep 10th 2008, 07:22 PM
What? :o Is Yeshua merely a 'created thing'? He said, "Before Abraham, I AM." All things were created through Him! Do you dare equated Him with a created thing? :hmm:


Since Jesus took on a human form he did take on to some extent a created form and nature. Since, he is in heaven in his created body now he is still in some ways a created being. His Spirit was begotten by God and before all things but his physical body and nature are created. This is the traditional understanding of the church.

Teke correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that is one of the things the 7th Ecumenical Council was settling. It also seems to be one of the reasons that they found the use of icons to be a good and right practice if one wanted to use them.

Fenris
Sep 10th 2008, 07:24 PM
My point: if all things were created by God for God, then matter possesses the same theocentricity (the belief that God is the center of all truth in the universe from Websters).
You know, this is the second post you made today that I really like.:)

It's been said that this is the exact reason that the Jews at Sinai could worship the golden calf. It's not that they thought the calf was God. But they could perceive the divine spark inside of everything, and they needed a physical manifestation to worship.

It still was, alas, idolatry.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 07:54 PM
Since Jesus took on a human form he did take on to some extent a created form and nature. Since, he is in heaven in his created body now he is still in some ways a created being. His Spirit was begotten by God and before all things but his physical body and nature are created. This is the traditional understanding of the church. Do you merely worship the physical body of Yeshua? The flesh? I worship He who was from the beginning. Who is and was and is to come.

quiet dove
Sep 10th 2008, 07:58 PM
God told us not to make images. And He knew if we did we would be to easily distracted from Him to the image, assuming the image to help us get closer to Him. Why would we possibly want a statue or whatever to bow to in reverence to God. Just get on your knees in your living room, or where ever. Worship Him in the Spirit as we are commanded

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2008, 08:05 PM
It's been said that this is the exact reason that the Jews at Sinai could worship the golden calf. It's not that they thought the calf was God. But they could perceive the divine spark inside of everything, and they needed a physical manifestation to worship.

It still was, alas, idolatry.Yes, it was. And we see the Almighty's reaction to it.

Br. Barnabas
Sep 10th 2008, 08:18 PM
Do you merely worship the physical body of Yeshua? The flesh? I worship He who was from the beginning. Who is and was and is to come.

You asked how Teke could understand Jesus as a created thing, I was simply explaining what I thought she meant. I did not say that anyone should only worship Jesus after the incarnation. Of course we should worship Jesus in full, that means before incarnation, during, and after. But worshiping Jesus means that in part we are worshiping his physical attributes. Because he being an awesome God made himself flesh and redeemed all created things. Bringing all things back to himself.

In my post I did not state anything about my personal belief of worship. I said that Jesus has a physical body. Do you disagree with this? I also said that the had a Spirit that was before all things. Do you disagee with this? Where do you see my saying that we should only worship the physical nature of Christ? I did not say this in fact I did not say anything like that.

I worship the God who humbled himself to be carried in the womb of a woman and who became part of his creation in order to redem it. Who died for his creation and then rose again to show his power over all of his creation and evil in the creation. Clear enough?

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 10:05 PM
Since Jesus took on a human form he did take on to some extent a created form and nature. Since, he is in heaven in his created body now he is still in some ways a created being. His Spirit was begotten by God and before all things but his physical body and nature are created. This is the traditional understanding of the church.

Teke correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that is one of the things the 7th Ecumenical Council was settling. It also seems to be one of the reasons that they found the use of icons to be a good and right practice if one wanted to use them.

This is a good post Uriel. :spin: Exactly what one needs to think about when trying to understand Jesus Christ and all He is teaching us about. This is truly what Christianity is about.

Your Anglican so you know the creed, "incarnate of the Holy Spirit", meaning what was created by God, a new creation.

The basic concept of theocentricity comes from the revelation of Jesus Christ to mankind, which we cannot deny and where all our theology originates. Of which begins with the fact that God created from nothing (no created thing). And which is why, all things cannot be anything but "of" God.

Of course this cannot be taken to extremes, as Fenris pointed out about the golden calf. May be why the early councils decided no statues. The calf worshipers also were.... disorderly, to say the least, in their worship.
I suppose you could say those actions were before they, understood, the orderly worship God calls for. Consequences tend to make their point in no uncertain terms.

As Fenris said, "they could perceive the divine spark inside of everything, ", so God accommodated us (by allowing implements in ordered worship) because of our frail state and because He loves us. The Church should do no less. :saint:

Teke
Sep 10th 2008, 10:18 PM
God told us not to make images. And He knew if we did we would be to easily distracted from Him to the image, assuming the image to help us get closer to Him. Why would we possibly want a statue or whatever to bow to in reverence to God. Just get on your knees in your living room, or where ever. Worship Him in the Spirit as we are commanded

We are not commanded to only worship Him "in the Spirit". We are also commanded (1st commandment) to worship Him with our whole being. "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

That's mind, body and spirit. ;)

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment."

quiet dove
Sep 11th 2008, 03:23 AM
We are not commanded to only worship Him "in the Spirit". We are also commanded (1st commandment) to worship Him with our whole being. "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

That's mind, body and spirit. ;)

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment."

"...thou shalt love...." worship isn't even in that passage.

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.


Simply, we should need no trinkets to help us fall at His feet. Or love Him with all our being.

cnw
Sep 11th 2008, 03:54 AM
One interesting thing from Islamic eschatology. Near the end-times, a great Muslim world leader, the Mahdi, sets up the global Caliphate in Jerusalem after discovering the Ark of the Covenant. The Mahdi, with the help of a Muslim Jesus, unites the world under belief in Allah, destroying Judaism and Christianity in the process.

I think finding the Ark of the Covenant is supposed to give the Mahdi credibility with the Jews, and help convert Jews and Christians to Islam. Those that do not convert are of course, destroyed.

wow, I didn't know this but it sure fits with some of the ideas of the end times. Where did you get this info?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2008, 11:27 AM
In my post I did not state anything about my personal belief of worship. I said that Jesus has a physical body. Do you disagree with this? I also said that the had a Spirit that was before all things. Do you disagee with this? Where do you see my saying that we should only worship the physical nature of Christ? I did not say this in fact I did not say anything like that. I made no comment concerning how you worship. I simply asked a question. I apologize if my question somehow offended you as that was not the intention. :)

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 05:13 PM
"...thou shalt love...." worship isn't even in that passage.

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.


Simply, we should need no trinkets to help us fall at His feet. Or love Him with all our being.

Not going to debate all the elements involved in worship.

But to address the "trinkets" statement. All Christians have some sort of "trinket" as you put it. Whether it be one of those agape fish symbols evangelicals like to display everywhere, or necklaces with a cross on them, they are used.

The difference I see is in the use. I do not adorn myself or car with such symbols (trinkets). But I do understand the use of these things by evangelicals in their evangelism efforts. So it should not be to hard for them to understand other Christians who prefer to use implements for prayer and worship.

If some are called to be more worship centered than evangelism centered, is that a bad thing. If I prefer to chant in prayer the psalms and you don't, is that a bad thing.

If I'm a chanting candle lighting incense burning Christian and your not, does that make either of us less than Christian.
If you display writings from scripture in your home and I display icons of saints, are we any less Christian.

Holy relics are certainly not "trinkets". They become holy by God and the faithful when they are separated for what is holy, that being God. So for instance, the cross on a necklace will never be a holy relic but only a symbol adorning a Christian body. Whereas a cross used by a priest in worship and kissed by multitudes of Christians of the faith will certainly become a holy relic, just as anything else used at the altar of God.

To do anything else with holy objects used for worship would be equivalent to what Neb's son did with the temple vessels.

So just as Jews will not give up their holy traditions, such as praying before the wall in Jerusalem, neither will Christians who practice the ancient way.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2008, 05:21 PM
The fish symbol is not used in any way for worship. Neither is a cross on a chain used in worship. It is jewelry which is spoken of in scripture acceptably; earrings, rings, necklacess, even nose rings. :D And by the way, I'd call them trinkets too! :lol:

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 05:27 PM
The fish symbol is not used in any way for worship. Neither is a cross on a chain used in worship. It is jewelry which is spoken of in scripture acceptably; earrings, rings, necklacess, even nose rings. :D And by the way, I'd call them trinkets too! :lol:

Yes, well I thought I made a point of that difference. ie. evangelism vs. worship
Or are you equating them as the same thing?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2008, 05:36 PM
Yes, well I thought I made a point of that difference. ie. evangelism vs. worship
Or are you equating them as the same thing?We don't use then for evangelism either. :hmm: They are simply trickets and for me, have nothing to do with my faith. :dunno: I have no problem seeing things like the cup of Christ or the spear being kept. They are historical. But to elevate them above their place can be idolatry.

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 06:12 PM
We don't use then for evangelism either. :hmm: They are simply trickets and for me, have nothing to do with my faith. :dunno: I have no problem seeing things like the cup of Christ or the spear being kept. They are historical. But to elevate them above their place can be idolatry.

If their not being used for evangelism then they must be symbols of status. Either way they are symbols.

I am not ignorant of evangelical churches. Depending on the church, different symbols are displayed. Usually at least a cross somewhere if nothing else.

And of course no one is implying they should be elevated above their place. I believe Jesus taught us a lesson on this with the woman who touched his garment. He did not accuse her of paganism, superstition or sorcery. Because of the womans faith the garment was the avenue of grace which came from Jesus. IOW one didn't need to touch Jesus directly to access divine power. He said, "Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power (Gr. dunamin) going out from Me." He affirms it is her faith by saying, "your faith has made you well".

If it is God's will to use such avenues of grace, who are we to say otherwise.
I am not saying they should be worshiped or thought on as compelling God to act in a certain way. Truly God can use anything He pleases or nothing at all. But there are examples in scripture of the connection between the divine dunamis (power) and miracles.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2008, 06:16 PM
It seems like those who defend the use of relics (icons vs idols) do so because they see such things as an aid to worship. The religious nature of man feels the need to walk by sight rather than faith - to perhaps get himself in the "mood". Which in and of itself seems harmless, if in the end it is the Lord who is receiving worship.

The problem it creates however is that these things thus become the mediator for our worship, and without them we feel empty. Do we need a wooden cross to remind us of Christ's death for our sins? Or is this not the Spirit's job who works thru the truth which has been revealed to us?

Those who keep a crucifix on their wall must bless themselves when their eyes light on it - is there guilt that comes in when they fail to do this? You bet! That is how superstition creeps in because of these things and faith goes by the wayside. Can you walk by the statue of Mary without lighting a candle? What would others think if you didn't? When the Eucharist is paraded, must you bow your head or kneel?

None of these problems are faced by those who do not feel the need for such things. Because this is the trap that the things men make have. When God instructed Moses for the artifacts of the tabernacle, these things were revealed to him as the pattern of the heavenly things. And all those things have been removed. So why do we go about establishing our own icons, which we have received no revelation from God to do?

There were plenty of crosses around in the 1st advent days, so that the horror of the death they brought was well known. How is it that we have turned this sign into an object d'art to grace our necks? Does having such things protect us or keep our faith alive? Hardly, again this the Holy Spirit's job and why He was given to us.

Legalism and idolatry go hand in hand - whatever face you give them. Because men do NOT trust God to sanctify and guide them into faith and the knowledge of Christ and so they put up props to help the Spirit along. And it is the vanity of men at work and the reason such things are called idols and are forbidden, because this is always where it leads.

Fenris
Sep 11th 2008, 06:25 PM
Legalism and idolatry go hand in hand
I don't think I've ever seen that said before.

So all the Jews from Sinai until the present day were idol worshipers?

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2008, 06:30 PM
I don't think I've ever seen that said before.

So all the Jews from Sinai until the present day were idol worshipers?Whether one changes the glory of God for a lie or mixes in idols with his worship, idolatry is the charge. I do believe legalism leads into that path when faith is set by the wayside.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2008, 06:34 PM
I believe Jesus taught us a lesson on this with the woman who touched his garment. He did not accuse her of paganism, superstition or sorcery. Because of the womans faith the garment was the avenue of grace which came from Jesus. IOW one didn't need to touch Jesus directly to access divine power. He said, "Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power (Gr. dunamin) going out from Me." He affirms it is her faith by saying, "your faith has made you well".Do you believe He was saying that her faith in His garment had saved her? Or was it her faith in God? :hmm:

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 07:25 PM
It seems like those who defend the use of relics (icons vs idols) do so because they see such things as an aid to worship.

Things are getting a bit mixed up in this thread. Holy relics are not aids. Aids are used to teach, remind or otherwise be of assistance. For instance a dear friend of mine complained about her prayer life. To aid her I gave her wooden prayer beads, I could have given her a chotki (knotted prayer rope) would've been the same. She has attention problems. My advice was very simple. The beads would remind her to pray. I also advised her a simple prayer, Lord Jesus Son of God have mercy on me a sinner, or just Lord have mercy's.

She said it helped her greatly. It's a simple ancient practice to focus your attention using an aid. In the hustle and bustle of life one can be easily distracted by various things they experience, see, hear, smell etc.
If she is consistent soon she will simply pray without ceasing and with ease.



The religious nature of man feels the need to walk by sight rather than faith - to perhaps get himself in the "mood". Which in and of itself seems harmless, if in the end it is the Lord who is receiving worship.

The problem it creates however is that these things thus become the mediator for our worship, and without them we feel empty. Do we need a wooden cross to remind us of Christ's death for our sins? Or is this not the Spirit's job who works thru the truth which has been revealed to us?

I don't know about "mood". We do walk a thin line (the narrow path), meaning we shouldn't become distracted with superstition. While the Spirit is doing His work, we may not notice. But I've never heard of an aid becoming "mediator for worship".:hmm:

It is just our nature to be experiential. And by that I mean such as when you look at an artistic rendering and compile thoughts from the experience. ie. you liked it or hated it etc. It was just an experience and not a means to an end.
Experience is not imagination. One is literal the other is not.


Those who keep a crucifix on their wall must bless themselves when their eyes light on it - is there guilt that comes in when they fail to do this? You bet! That is how superstition creeps in because of these things and faith goes by the wayside. Can you walk by the statue of Mary without lighting a candle? What would others think if you didn't? When the Eucharist is paraded, must you bow your head or kneel?

I don't see everyone having the same experience in worship. I don't feel guilty or blessed when I see a cross. There are no statues in my church just icons. Really no one pays attention to how others worship when they are in worship. There are all sorts of things going on during a liturgy in my church. As for the Eucharist. I do feel led to bow when it is before me, as I experience it as the Lord Himself. Others reach out to touch it with great joy on their faces. I'm not so bold.
I also bow and sign with the cross before the altar, because I experience it as literally His altar, tomb, throne...lot of meaning in that.


None of these problems are faced by those who do not feel the need for such things. Because this is the trap that the things men make have. When God instructed Moses for the artifacts of the tabernacle, these things were revealed to him as the pattern of the heavenly things. And all those things have been removed. So why do we go about establishing our own icons, which we have received no revelation from God to do?

We did not establish icons, God did being incarnate of flesh.
An icon is an image.

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 07:31 PM
Do you believe He was saying that her faith in His garment had saved her? Or was it her faith in God? :hmm:

From the story it would seem that she believed her faith in God would heal her.

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 07:38 PM
I don't think I've ever seen that said before.

So all the Jews from Sinai until the present day were idol worshipers?

Never heard that before myself. <sigh> There are many who do not see legalism as order, but instead see it in a juridical sense. In the liturgical sense the concept is order.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2008, 07:39 PM
Teke,
I know better than to try and argue the point with you about the mediatorship of icons - but this point I will address:


We did not establish icons, God did being incarnate of flesh.
An icon is an image.
(Heb 10:5 KJV) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus is the proper "icon" we have been given because the Lord prepared a body for Him made without hands. This makes Jesus the proper object for our worship and not an idol as the Jews think. This is the proper use of an image - one that God gives us.

(Heb 1:3 KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

But we needn't make another image of Him because He lives. There is no memorial image therefore that we can make that would not be an idol of our own imagination at work, because we do not know what He looks like. The reality of our spiritual worship of Him is because the Spirit keeps Him before our "eyes" by faith. And that is the only way we will see Him while we are still housed in these earthly bodies.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2008, 07:40 PM
Never heard that before myself. <sigh> There are many who do not see legalism as order, but instead see it in a juridical sense. In the liturgical sense the concept is order.That is because your faith is in the righteousness of Christ.

Fenris
Sep 11th 2008, 07:42 PM
Whether one changes the glory of God for a lie or mixes in idols with his worship, idolatry is the charge. I do believe legalism leads into that path when faith is set by the wayside.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion...

For the record, I know of many holy rabbis who had great faith in God and that is precisely why they are so careful to follow the rules exactly. They love God and want to do exactly what he wants.

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 07:59 PM
Teke,
I know better than to try and argue the point with you about the mediatorship of icons - but this point I will address:


(Heb 10:5 KJV) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jesus is the proper "icon" we have been given because the Lord prepared a body for Him made without hands. This makes Jesus the proper object for our worship and not an idol as the Jews think. This is the proper use of an image - one that God gives us.

(Heb 1:3 KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

But we needn't make another image of Him because He lives. There is no memorial image therefore that we can make that would not be an idol of our own imagination at work, because we do not know what He looks like. The reality of our spiritual worship of Him is because the Spirit keeps Him before our "eyes" by faith. And that is the only way we will see Him while we are still housed in these earthly bodies.

I can understand how icons may seem to mean other things to the unlearned. But to those who have been taught of their meaning, they don't mean the same thing. They tell a story about the saint depicted. Everything from the lines in their clothes and colors used hold meaning. For instance, in my church the Theotokos is never depicted without Jesus, and in those depictions Jesus is seen as a man child to remind us of His human nature, which is part of Trinity theology.

Or another example. The icon of the Trinity is a depiction of three sitting with one cup before them with Abraham and Sarah providing hospitality, this is from scripture.

I'm not attracted to all icons. There are some I like better than others. And there are some which pierce the heart.
One of my favorites depicts the Theotokos with Jesus and His shoe has fallen off in His haste to get to His mother as He beholds the angels in each corner which hold the instruments of His passion, the cross and spear. As scripture says, "in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin". Again Trinity theology.:)

Icons can be windows. ;)

Teke
Sep 11th 2008, 08:04 PM
For the record, I know of many holy rabbis who had great faith in God and that is precisely why they are so careful to follow the rules exactly. They love God and want to do exactly what he wants.

That's the spiritual leaders we want. :)

Deu 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

Mograce2U
Sep 11th 2008, 08:52 PM
Well, you're entitled to your opinion...

For the record, I know of many holy rabbis who had great faith in God and that is precisely why they are so careful to follow the rules exactly. They love God and want to do exactly what he wants.You and I have different ideas on what it means to have "great faith" in God. Faith is not marked by unbelief. The Israelites of the Exodus saw a great deliverance by God, yet when it came time to respond with trusting Him, they didn't - nor did they trust Moses. God sent Israel another Deliverer and their response was the same. You may call that "great faith", but I call in "no faith".

Fenris
Sep 11th 2008, 09:31 PM
You and I have different ideas on what it means to have "great faith" in God. Faith is not marked by unbelief. The Israelites of the Exodus saw a great deliverance by God, yet when it came time to respond with trusting Him, they didn't - nor did they trust Moses. God sent Israel another Deliverer and their response was the same. You may call that "great faith", but I call in "no faith".
Again beating up on the Israelites?

Context is important. You speak as a free person who grew up in a free country who was told from when you were young about God and His teachings. You are the product of 2000 of Christianity and 2000 years of western civilization and 250 years of American civilization.

How is that in any way comparable to the life of the newly freed slaves? Just as they could never comprehend your life, how could you comprehend theirs?

Mograce2U
Sep 12th 2008, 01:49 AM
Again beating up on the Israelites?

Context is important. You speak as a free person who grew up in a free country who was told from when you were young about God and His teachings. You are the product of 2000 of Christianity and 2000 years of western civilization and 250 years of American civilization.

How is that in any way comparable to the life of the newly freed slaves? Just as they could never comprehend your life, how could you comprehend theirs?Slaves who were sent to Egypt by a famine for their protection and provision with a favorable Pharoah in the beginning. But that was only until the sin of the Amorites reached their fullness and then the time came to bring them into the promised land. That was when a Pharoah was raised up who burdened them - to encourage the people to WANT to leave. You wouldn't have got the Israelites into Egypt without the famine and without their slavery turning into a hardship, you wouldn't have got them to leave either. I think it is marvelous how the Lord worked in Israel - all according to prophecy.

So it isn't as though Israel was not told what was in store for their future. Getting them to want what God wanted for them however has always been the tuff part!

And I am not trying to "beat you up", I do however have some disdain for the Pharisees who have misled you - not only about Jesus, but about what the hope of Israel even is.

RevLogos
Sep 12th 2008, 04:04 AM
wow, I didn't know this but it sure fits with some of the ideas of the end times. Where did you get this info?

The Ark of the Covenant is mentioned once in the Qur'an as "a sign" for the faithful (Qur'an, 2: 248).

The Mahdi, as KATA_LOUKAN mentioned, is mainly a Shia gig. The Shia are in the minority, but includes Iran. Ajad speaks often of the Mahdi in apocalyptic terms. According to the Hadiths the Mahdi finds the Ark and removes it from it's hiding place, as a sign of his dominion over everyone. The Ark is said to possibly be near Lake Tiberias, what we know as the Sea of Galilee. Islamic jurists see Lake Tiberius as more of a figure of speech, because it is also said to be near Sham. Sham apparently means something like a far distant place.

The Hadiths (traditions of Muhammad) are:

The Mahdi will remove the Ark of the Covenant from Lake Tiberias. (Iqd al-Durar fi Akbar al-Imam al-Muntadhar, by Shaikh Jamaluddin Yusuf al-Damishqi, p. 51-a)

The reason he will be known as the Mahdi is that he will show the way to a hidden thing. He will bring the Ark to light from a place called Antioch. (Suyuti, al-Hawi li'l Fatawa, II, 82)

The reason he will be known as the Mahdi is that he will go to one of the mountains in Sham. From there he will unearth the (true) books of the Torah and bring forth evidence against the Jews. (Suyuti, al-Hawi li'l Fatawa, II, 81)

This last bit refers to the Islamic notion that the Jews corrupted the Torah (just as Christians corrupted the Gospels), which really are Islamic books. By finding the original books, it could be proven the Jews corrupted the Book.

redeemedbyhim
Sep 12th 2008, 04:59 AM
The same goes if we had a statue of Mary or if we had some relic, I would show respect to the objects because of what they represent or because God has given them some sort of power.

That's the second time you said that in this thread (bolded).
What scripture says God has given His power to an object?

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My Name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.

Fenris
Sep 12th 2008, 10:00 AM
Slaves who were sent to Egypt by a famine for their protection and provision with a favorable Pharoah in the beginning. But that was only until the sin of the Amorites reached their fullness and then the time came to bring them into the promised land. Uh, they were there for more than 210 years. The people who went down originally were long dead. The people of the exodus lived their entire lives as slaves. Something you or I cannot comprehed. And you still take it on yourself to look down on them and judge them.


That was when a Pharoah was raised up who burdened them - to encourage the people to WANT to leave. Really? That part isn't in my bible. I see Pharoah attempting genocide and refusing to let them leave.



And I am not trying to "beat you up", I do however have some disdain for the Pharisees who have misled you - not only about Jesus, but about what the hope of Israel even is.
It comes across as though you have dissain for Jews in general.

Br. Barnabas
Sep 12th 2008, 12:12 PM
That's the second time you said that in this thread (bolded).
What scripture says God has given His power to an object?

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My Name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.

As Teke and I have already pointed out there is the example of the Ark of the Covenant, Paul's handkerchief, Elisha's bones, and we agree the robes of Jesus.

Aside from that we also have the examples from history. Do you really want to deny the miracles performed through saint's relics? We have examples of things being given power in Scripture. And it has continued to happen in the church. Both the early church, middle ages, and even now. It is not like I am making this stuff up or the only one that believes it. Most of Christendom believes in these things; it is not just the more catholic churches that believe it there are various protestant churches that believe in it also.

Teke
Sep 12th 2008, 03:19 PM
Indeed, God uses any of the elements He chooses to further His will to be done. Examples include, water for cleansing, and even dirt (Jesus Himself used dirt with His spit to cure blindness). The list just goes on and on....Moses staff, fire (burning bush, as well as the pillar which led the Israelites), the Red Sea, loaves of bread and fishes multiplied.

That theocentricity working. :saint:
Without such an understanding, Jesus could not have been the Incarnation of God in the flesh. All things are possible with God.