PDA

View Full Version : is a New World Order even in the bible?



moonglow
Sep 7th 2008, 07:52 PM
I know with some end time views this is constantly coming up and I see clips on youtube with some person in power talking about a new world order...but is it in the bible?

If I remember right the reason for the idea of this is people can't image how else the mark of the beast can be fulfilled...but isn't this assuming an awful lot? Or are their other scriptures leading to this idea?


History of the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy))

The modern use of the phrase "new world order," according to conspiracy theorists, originated in the early 1900s with Cecil Rhodes, who advocated that the British Empire and the United States should jointly impose a Federal World Government (with English as the official language) to bring about lasting world "peace".[6] Conspiracy theorists see a sinister motive in the fact that Rhodes founded the Rhodes Scholarship as a global brotherhood of future leaders. Lionel Curtis, who also believed in this idea, founded the Rhodes-Milner Round Table Groups in 1909, which led to the establishment of the British-based Royal Institute for International Affairs in 1919 and the U.S.-based Council on Foreign Relations in 1921.[7] The concept was further developed by Edward M. House, a close advisor to Woodrow Wilson during the negotiations to set up the League of Nations (it is unclear whether it was House or Wilson who invented the actual phrase). Another important influence was the author H.G. Wells, a vigorous advocate for world government.[8]

One official mention which has garnered attention was in Gerald Ford's "Declaration of Interdependence" on 24 October 1975; according to the ex-general counsel of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, Peter Beter, the Declaration of Interdependence states that:

"We must join with others to bring forth a new world order....Narrow notions of national sovereignty must not be permitted to curtail that obligation."[9]

Elements are present in the populism of the nineteenth century. In present form this can be traced to the collapse of the Soviet Union and President George H. W. Bush's new world order speech of 11 September 1990. In it he described the United States' objectives for post-cold-war cooperation with the former Soviet Union, using the phrase "new world order".[10]


I think Hitler also used this term too...or something close to it.

God bless

Cyberseeker
Sep 7th 2008, 11:41 PM
To be honest MG, Ive stopped reading topics about 'new world orders' etc. because they seem to be more to do with extreme right-wing politics rather than to do with prophecy.

Perhaps some read about antichrist one day, then read a conspiracy theory the next day, then try to join them together? :rolleyes:

Thats what I reckon anyway.

ServantoftheKing
Sep 8th 2008, 12:03 AM
I'm unsure if the NWO is specifically mentioned in prophecy, but I think most get the idea from Rev 13:7 when it says the beast (out of the sea) was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

ServantoftheKing

White Spider
Sep 8th 2008, 12:35 AM
. . . President George H. W. Bush's new world order speech of 11 September 1990 . . .

God bless

:hmm: A very curious date he made that speech on?

As for a New World Order in the Bible, I will have to look into that, I don't exactly know why I believe there will be a N.W.O. other than it's the logical direction the world is headed by looking at current events.

Tanya~
Sep 8th 2008, 01:16 AM
The Bible doesn't mention a "New World Order" as such but it does talk about a "New Heaven and New Earth" in which righteousness dwells (2 Pet 3:10-13). This will come when Jesus returns. Before that, Satan will be given the power to deceive and get people to worship him (Rev 13).

moonglow
Sep 8th 2008, 01:30 AM
Thanks all. When I believed in the pre-trib rapture I remember this being a strong part of their teaching and I remember Hal Lindsey saying the United nations was the start of the New world order back in the 70's...and that a one world currency would start soon...which it didn't as we see now. Now I realize a bible concept might not be named exactly in the bible...the trinity is a good example of that...while the world itself isn't used the concept is there and is valid. My concern is this idea is relative new. It seems like if the concept had always been there would we have seen the church fathers mentioning it probably around the time the scriptures were canonized wouldn't you think?

God bless

moonglow
Sep 8th 2008, 01:31 AM
The Bible doesn't mention a "New World Order" as such but it does talk about a "New Heaven and New Earth" in which righteousness dwells (2 Pet 3:10-13). This will come when Jesus returns. Before that, Satan will be given the power to deceive and get people to worship him (Rev 13).

That is a good point there. Though I never heard of the New World Order being in reference to the New Heaven and New Earth...its always been related to the antichrist (beast).

God bless

jamesand57
Sep 8th 2008, 02:16 AM
I know with some end time views this is constantly coming up and I see clips on youtube with some person in power talking about a new world order...but is it in the bible?

If I remember right the reason for the idea of this is people can't image how else the mark of the beast can be fulfilled...but isn't this assuming an awful lot? Or are their other scriptures leading to this idea?


History of the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy))

The modern use of the phrase "new world order," according to conspiracy theorists, originated in the early 1900s with Cecil Rhodes, who advocated that the British Empire and the United States should jointly impose a Federal World Government (with English as the official language) to bring about lasting world "peace".[6] Conspiracy theorists see a sinister motive in the fact that Rhodes founded the Rhodes Scholarship as a global brotherhood of future leaders. Lionel Curtis, who also believed in this idea, founded the Rhodes-Milner Round Table Groups in 1909, which led to the establishment of the British-based Royal Institute for International Affairs in 1919 and the U.S.-based Council on Foreign Relations in 1921.[7] The concept was further developed by Edward M. House, a close advisor to Woodrow Wilson during the negotiations to set up the League of Nations (it is unclear whether it was House or Wilson who invented the actual phrase). Another important influence was the author H.G. Wells, a vigorous advocate for world government.[8]

One official mention which has garnered attention was in Gerald Ford's "Declaration of Interdependence" on 24 October 1975; according to the ex-general counsel of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, Peter Beter, the Declaration of Interdependence states that:

"We must join with others to bring forth a new world order....Narrow notions of national sovereignty must not be permitted to curtail that obligation."[9]

Elements are present in the populism of the nineteenth century. In present form this can be traced to the collapse of the Soviet Union and President George H. W. Bush's new world order speech of 11 September 1990. In it he described the United States' objectives for post-cold-war cooperation with the former Soviet Union, using the phrase "new world order".[10]


I think Hitler also used this term too...or something close to it.

God bless



Do you believe in the Trinity? The Term is not in the Bible, but is a well established Christian Doctrine. So..... If not being in the Bible by name is a criteria, then a concept in the Bible that is given a common name must be illegitimate.

Do you Believe in the Rapture? again a term that is not exactly in the Bible though the word 'Caught up' is of which raptura in Latin is the term commonly applied to the event.


The Concept in the Bible is a World Government headed by the Anti Christ composed of ten Kings


Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev 17:13 "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

moonglow
Sep 8th 2008, 03:06 AM
Do you believe in the Trinity? The Term is not in the Bible, but is a well established Christian Doctrine. So..... If not being in the Bible by name is a criteria, then a concept in the Bible that is given a common name must be illegitimate.

Do you Believe in the Rapture? again a term that is not exactly in the Bible though the word 'Caught up' is of which raptura in Latin is the term commonly applied to the event.


The Concept in the Bible is a World Government headed by the Anti Christ composed of ten Kings


Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev 17:13 "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

Yes I said such a thing in post number 6...scroll up.

I don't believe in the 'rapture' per say as it means too many different things to different people depending on their end time views...I DO believe what the bible says though in the resurrection.

God bless

Roelof
Sep 8th 2008, 01:30 PM
The New World Order would be the kingdom or ten regions of the Antichrist:

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

It also appears on the Great Seal and $1 of the US:

The phrase Novus ordo seclorum (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) for "New Order of the Ages") appears on the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States), first designed in 1782 and printed on the back of the American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._dollar) dollar bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._one_dollar_bill) since 1935.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Seclorum

moonglow
Sep 8th 2008, 01:52 PM
The New World Order would be the kingdom or ten regions of the Antichrist:

And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev 17:12)

It also appears on the Great Seal and $1 of the US:

The phrase Novus ordo seclorum (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) for "New Order of the Ages") appears on the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States), first designed in 1782 and printed on the back of the American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._dollar) dollar bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._one_dollar_bill) since 1935.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Seclorum


It also says: The phrase is often mistranslated as "New World Order," but the Latin for that phrase would be Novus Ordo Mundi.

Origin and meaning

The phrase is taken from the fourth Eclogue of Virgil, which contains a passage (lines 5-8) that reads:

Now comes the final era of the Sibyl's song;
the great order of the ages is born afresh.
And now justice returns, honored rules return;
now a new lineage is sent down from high heaven

Medieval Christians read Virgil's poem as a prophecy of the coming of Christ.

The word seclorum does not mean "secular", as one might assume, but is the genitive (possessive) plural form of the word saeculum, meaning (in this context) generation, century, or age. Saeculum did come to mean "age, world" in late, Christian, Latin, and "secular" is derived from it, through secularis. However, the adjective "secularis," meaning "worldly," is not equivalent to the nominative plural possessive "seclorum," meaning "of the ages."[1]

Thus the motto Novus ordo seclorum can be translated as "A new order of the ages." It was proposed by Charles Thomson, the Latin expert who was involved in the design of the Great Seal of the United States, to signify "the beginning of the new American Era" as of the date of the Declaration of Independence.

maybe more was read into this then ever intended?

God bless

sudds
Sep 8th 2008, 05:56 PM
When Rome ruled the world, some of their commanded decrees are still with us today i.e the calender with the names of days and months, AD, BC. Even some of the Greek decrees from Alexander the Great still influence us today i.e the Septuagint OT and NT.

To establish a world order, someone or some country has to have complete control of every one. It appears that God didn't have complete control of all the spiritual kingdoms of the world before the crucifixion/resurrection by the following scripture.

Revelation 11:15. The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven which said. "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and He will reign for ever and ever."

In the above verse, why would it have said "has become?" We also have Daniel 10 to show that the spiritual kingdoms were not "completely" controlled by God.

I believe that Revelation 6 tells of the new world order when Christ conquered the spiritual kingdoms. After He conquered, He decreed the new world order for the spiritual world which parallels and affects the physical world.

Revelation 6 (seals)

1st Seal - White Horse - Christ the conqueror.
2nd Seal - Red Horse - There will continue to be war on earth.
3rd Seal - Black Horse - People will still have to work for a living.
4th Seal - Pale Horse - People will physically die.
Fifth Seal- There will be a conscience world after death and before the
final Judgment.
6th Seal - There will be a Final Judgment.

IMHO.

White Spider
Sep 10th 2008, 02:57 PM
If the dollar is brought up there are many questions about it and theories, but I always have a few questions?

Why a pyramid? Where in the U.S. was there an Egyptian looking pyramid? Not to mention the cap stone, why is there an eye in it? An eye was a symbol of Ra. The egyptian sun god . . . :hmm: guess that's why there is the rays from the sun behind it, but why the heck are our countries founding fathers paying tribute to Ra?

Why can you make a hexagram and get the letters on the points to spell MASON? Why the hexagram of stars above the eagle? The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman and for conjuring spirits in the practice of witchcraft. Also considered the symbol of Saturn which is closely associated to Satanism. Again why are the founding fathers paying homage to ancient gods associated with Satan?

Maybe too much isn't being read into Novus Ordo Seclorum . . .

Joe King
Sep 10th 2008, 03:19 PM
Isn't the NWO the one world government?

White Spider
Sep 10th 2008, 03:27 PM
Yes . . . they are one and the same, at least 99.9% of the time, some people may have different ideas.

moonglow
Sep 10th 2008, 08:47 PM
If the dollar is brought up there are many questions about it and theories, but I always have a few questions?

Why a pyramid? Where in the U.S. was there an Egyptian looking pyramid? Not to mention the cap stone, why is there an eye in it? An eye was a symbol of Ra. The egyptian sun god . . . :hmm: guess that's why there is the rays from the sun behind it, but why the heck are our countries founding fathers paying tribute to Ra?

Why can you make a hexagram and get the letters on the points to spell MASON? Why the hexagram of stars above the eagle? The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman and for conjuring spirits in the practice of witchcraft. Also considered the symbol of Saturn which is closely associated to Satanism. Again why are the founding fathers paying homage to ancient gods associated with Satan?

Maybe too much isn't being read into Novus Ordo Seclorum . . .

What do the symbols on the U.S. $1 bill mean? (http://money.howstuffworks.com/question5181.htm)

This explains what all the symbol's on the dollar bill mean. I don't think there is any hexagram on there and I am sure not seeing a six pointed star either...but it does mean the Star of David..its a Jewish symbol.


# The 1782 secretary of Congress, Charles Thomson, adopted the bald eagle as the prominent feature of the design.
# The shield, or escutcheon, is shown on the breast of the eagle without any support, indicating the self-reliance of the United States. Thirteen red and white stripes appear on the shield, signifying the 13 original states. The red color represents hardiness and valor, and the white represents purity and innocence. These stripes support and unite with the top blue band, which represents Congress. Blue signifies vigilance, perseverance and justice.
# The eagle's talons hold 13 arrows in the right and an olive branch in the left. These symbolize the power of war and peace, respectively. The number of arrows represents the 13 original states.

The reverse side:

* The pyramid
* The eye in the triangle above the pyramid
* The Roman numerals, MDCCLXXVI, appear on the base of the pyramid and translate to 1776, the year of independence.
* Above the "eye" are the Latin words "Annuit Coeptis." This translates to "He has favored our undertakings." This line is associated with the "Eye of Providence."
* Below the pyramid are the Latin words "Novus Ordo Seclorum," meaning "A new order of the ages," referring to the birth of America in 1776.
# The constellation of 13 stars (states) above the eagle's head signifies the United States' rank among other sovereign powers.
# The motto, "E Pluribus Unum," written on the banner held in the eagle's beak, is Latin meaning "Out of many, one," conveying the union of the States.

White Spider
Sep 11th 2008, 04:43 AM
What do the symbols on the U.S. $1 bill mean? (http://money.howstuffworks.com/question5181.htm)

This explains what all the symbol's on the dollar bill mean. I don't think there is any hexagram on there and I am sure not seeing a six pointed star either...but it does mean the Star of David..its a Jewish symbol.

First I am wondering where in the Bible you can show me David's Star referenced?

Amos 5:26 ~ You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god — which you made for yourselves.

Acts 7:43 ~ You have lifted up the shrine of Molech and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship. Therefore I will send you into exile' beyond Babylon.

Why did the hexagram become a Jewish symbol? Where in the Bible is it Jewish? I mean wouldn't it be in the Bible somewhere, the Jews are God's chosen people, wouldn't we know if they had such an important symbol?

It's not in the Bible, the only reference to stars are Egyptian and other Pagan gods.

The symbol was widely adopted, not because the Jewish people chose it, but ironically because Adolph Hitler forced all Jews to wear a yellow six-pointed star during the holocaust. The word holocaust means burnt offering, and the six-pointed star was used in the past when burnt human sacrifices were offered to Moloch and Ashtoreth in Baal worship.

As for the hexagram on the dollar bill.

Visit this page, it shows the one of the hexagrams: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit5/0520.gif

Now look at the stars they form a hexagram with one star in the middle.

Look at this link showing a second hexagram on the dollar: http://www.light1998.com/Phallus/ASMON1.gif

It connects A-S-N-O-M ----> MASON

Coincidence :hmm:

Hard to believe so . . .

moonglow
Sep 11th 2008, 02:47 PM
First I am wondering where in the Bible you can show me David's Star referenced?

Amos 5:26 ~ You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god — which you made for yourselves.

Acts 7:43 ~ You have lifted up the shrine of Molech and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship. Therefore I will send you into exile' beyond Babylon.

Why did the hexagram become a Jewish symbol? Where in the Bible is it Jewish? I mean wouldn't it be in the Bible somewhere, the Jews are God's chosen people, wouldn't we know if they had such an important symbol?

It's not in the Bible, the only reference to stars are Egyptian and other Pagan gods.

The symbol was widely adopted, not because the Jewish people chose it, but ironically because Adolph Hitler forced all Jews to wear a yellow six-pointed star during the holocaust. The word holocaust means burnt offering, and the six-pointed star was used in the past when burnt human sacrifices were offered to Moloch and Ashtoreth in Baal worship.

As for the hexagram on the dollar bill.

Visit this page, it shows the one of the hexagrams: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit5/0520.gif

Now look at the stars they form a hexagram with one star in the middle.

Look at this link showing a second hexagram on the dollar: http://www.light1998.com/Phallus/ASMON1.gif

It connects A-S-N-O-M ----> MASON

Coincidence :hmm:

Hard to believe so . . .

This is Israel's nation's flag:

http://design.flowingpens.com/blog/images/israel_flag.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David

From the Holocaust to the Israeli flag, what is the deeper meaning of this six-pointed Jewish symbol? (http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Star_of_David.asp)

From what I read its use can be traced back to the 6th century...long before Hitler. Hitler didn't invent the star of David by any means! The Jews were already using it as their symbol.

We do have a Jew on the board that can only post in the conversational form...feel free to go ask him..his name is Fenis.

Its the five pointed star, the pentagram, that is most often used with the occult and witchcraft by the way, including the Masons: http://skepdic.com/pentagram.html

God bless

White Spider
Sep 11th 2008, 08:42 PM
Yes, but that flag was designed after the holocaust in 1948 when Israel became a Nation again.

I do know the Pentagram is strong in occultism, but the hexagram is as well. Again the symbol of Saturn, whom many Pagan's worshipped is most commonly the hexagram.

1 Kings 11:7 ~ On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.

Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molek, Ba'al, or Remphan are among the names used for this god, as well as other names. Here's a few verses where Moloch is referenced in various forms of his name (1 Kings 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:5;&version=9;), 1 Kings 11:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:33;&version=9;), 1 Kings 22:53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2022:53;&version=9;), 2 Kings 23:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2023:13;&version=9;) and Zephaniah 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zephaniah%201:5;&version=9;))

This is where the star comes from:

Amos 5:26 ~ But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star [Saturn] of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Acts 7:43 ~ Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star [Saturn] of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Saturn's symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg/180px-Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg.png

The six pointed star was used by Solomon when he turned to Pagan gods, the Seal of Solomon. It was used in ancient times as you pointed out, but it was not of Jewish use. People often confuse that and there is a lot of misinformation on the web because Solomon is the son of David and was right with God for a time, they think because Solomon used it it was Jewish, but he used it after turning away from God for Pagan purposes. Also why it's wrongly considered the "Star of David" which it most certainly is not.

As I stated before it did not become Jewish until Hitler used it to mark the Jews. Why did he mark the Jews with the symbol of Moloch/Remphan etc. you may wonder?

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits. (The ginger bread man :hmm:)

As I said before it was not until Hitler used the star to mark the Jews was it even related in any way to Judaism. And he marked them for sacrifice.

Holocaust by definition is - "burnt sacrifice"

moonglow
Sep 12th 2008, 02:55 PM
Yes, but that flag was designed after the holocaust in 1948 when Israel became a Nation again.

I do know the Pentagram is strong in occultism, but the hexagram is as well. Again the symbol of Saturn, whom many Pagan's worshipped is most commonly the hexagram.

1 Kings 11:7 ~ On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.

Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molek, Ba'al, or Remphan are among the names used for this god, as well as other names. Here's a few verses where Moloch is referenced in various forms of his name (1 Kings 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:5;&version=9;), 1 Kings 11:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:33;&version=9;), 1 Kings 22:53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2022:53;&version=9;), 2 Kings 23:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2023:13;&version=9;) and Zephaniah 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zephaniah%201:5;&version=9;))

This is where the star comes from:

Amos 5:26 ~ But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star [Saturn] of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Acts 7:43 ~ Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star [Saturn] of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Saturn's symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg/180px-Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg.png

The six pointed star was used by Solomon when he turned to Pagan gods, the Seal of Solomon. It was used in ancient times as you pointed out, but it was not of Jewish use. People often confuse that and there is a lot of misinformation on the web because Solomon is the son of David and was right with God for a time, they think because Solomon used it it was Jewish, but he used it after turning away from God for Pagan purposes. Also why it's wrongly considered the "Star of David" which it most certainly is not.

As I stated before it did not become Jewish until Hitler used it to mark the Jews. Why did he mark the Jews with the symbol of Moloch/Remphan etc. you may wonder?

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits. (The ginger bread man :hmm:)

As I said before it was not until Hitler used the star to mark the Jews was it even related in any way to Judaism. And he marked them for sacrifice.

Holocaust by definition is - "burnt sacrifice"

True Israel didn't have her flag until after they became a nation after Hitler but do you honestly think they would take a symbol that was forced on them by him when he slaughter so many of them if it wasn't already a part of their culture? I couldn't image that at all!

As I said the five pointed star was being used by them back to the sixth century long before Hitler.

This link I posted in my last post is from a Jewish site written by by Rabbi Shraga Simmons
:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Star_of_David.asp
In modern times, the Star of David has become a premier Jewish symbol. This six-pointed star (hexagram), made of two interlocking triangles, can be found on mezuzahs, menorahs, tallis bags, and kipot. Ambulances in Israel bear the sign of the "Red Star of David," and the flag of Israel has a blue Star of David planted squarely in the center.

What is the origin of this six-pointed symbol?
The six points symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions.

Through the Jewish people's long and often difficult history, we have come to the realization that our only hope is to place our trust in God. The six points of the Star of David symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions: north, south, east, west, up and down.

Originally, the Hebrew name Magen David -- literally "Shield of David" -- poetically referred to God. It acknowledges that our military hero, King David, did not win by his own might, but by the support of the Almighty. This is also alluded to in the third blessing after the Haftorah reading on Shabbat: "Blessed are you God, Shield of David."

Various other explanations exist on the meaning behind the Star of David.

One idea is that a six-pointed star receives form and substance from its solid center. This inner core represents the spiritual dimension, surrounded by the six universal directions. (A similar idea applies to Shabbat -- the seventh day which gives balance and perspective to the six weekdays.)
In Kabbalah, the two triangles represent the dichotomies inherent in man.

In Kabbalah, the two triangles represent the dichotomies inherent in man: good vs. evil, spiritual vs. physical, etc. The two triangles may also represent the reciprocal relationship between the Jewish people and God. The triangle pointing "up" symbolizes our good deeds which go up to heaven, and then activate a flow of goodness back down to the world, symbolized by the triangle pointing down.

A more practical theory is that during the Bar Kochba rebellion (first century), a new technology was developed for shields using the inherent stability of the triangle. Behind the shield were two interlocking triangles, forming a hexagonal pattern of support points. (Buckminster Fuller showed how strong triangle-based designs are with his geodesics.)

Yes I realize in the OT the Jews got mixed up with the pagans and worshiped pagan gods. Now they use this symbol and give all the credit TO God..not any pagan god and we know they aren't sacrificing anyone or anything to any pagan gods using this symbol. I think we need to look at the present and what it means now...rather then the past in this case. The past is only important if its still going on and I think any Jew would take offense if they thought you were trying to say they were using some occult/pagan god symbol now and worshiping a pagan god!

Beside that..what does this have to do with whether the bible says their will be a new world order or not anyway?

God bless

Roelof
Sep 12th 2008, 03:09 PM
I am not American but read many articles that showed the Masonic influence in the design of the Us$1.

Unfortunately they are "bad" websites and I may not link to them

Tanya~
Sep 12th 2008, 04:32 PM
The star of David is also called "Solomon's Seal" and is found at least as early as the 3-4th century on Jewish Synagogues. See the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/2/King%20Solomon-s%20Seal) website.

White Spider
Sep 12th 2008, 10:10 PM
You were discussing the phrase "Novus Ordo Seclorum" which appears on the dollar, we then began discussing the occultic hexagrams that can be found on the dollar, which led us in the direction of is the Star of David really the Star of David.

Anyways, I'm not saying the Jews worship false Gods. Just saying the hexagram is not the Star of David.

A red hexagram? Where have I heard that before . . . oh yes, the Rothschild family bank had a wooden sign with a red hexagram painted over it.

- - - - - - - -

The NWO in the Bible:

Revelation 12:9 ~ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 13:3 ~ One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Revelation 13:8 ~ All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 16:14 ~ They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

There is where the New World Order is likely derived from.

[Sorry I got us so side tracked, I will leave the hexagram discussion for another time and thread.]

moonglow
Sep 15th 2008, 03:04 PM
Sorry I am slow in answering..I wasn't on but very briefly over the weekend.



You were discussing the phrase "Novus Ordo Seclorum" which appears on the dollar,

No...you brought that up not me.


we then began discussing the occultic hexagrams that can be found on the dollar, which led us in the direction of is the Star of David really the Star of David.

Anyways, I'm not saying the Jews worship false Gods. Just saying the hexagram is not the Star of David.

A red hexagram? Where have I heard that before . . . oh yes, the Rothschild family bank had a wooden sign with a red hexagram painted over it.

I have no idea what or who Rothschild is..or what all that means..sorry.


- - - - - - - -

The NWO in the Bible:

Revelation 12:9 ~ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 13:3 ~ One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Revelation 13:8 ~ All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 16:14 ~ They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

There is where the New World Order is likely derived from.

[Sorry I got us so side tracked, I will leave the hexagram discussion for another time and thread.]




This was possible back in the first century and then Rome did rule the world. Its just not possible now though.

God bless

White Spider
Sep 15th 2008, 08:30 PM
Sorry I am slow in answering..I wasn't on but very briefly over the weekend.

It's alright, your posts are worth waiting for. - And I didn't bring the phrase on the dollar up, I believe you were discussing it with Roelof, I happened to jump in, again, sorry for pulling us off track a bit.



The NWO in the Bible:

Revelation 12:9 ~ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 13:3 ~ One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

Revelation 13:8 ~ All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 16:14 ~ They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

There is where the New World Order is likely derived from.

This was possible back in the first century and then Rome did rule the world. Its just not possible now though.

God bless

I'm not sure why you don't believe this is possible today.

It seems all signs lead to a universal government structure of some sort in the near future.

I am wondering if you could tell me why you don't feel it is possible today for someone to rule the world.

moonglow
Sep 16th 2008, 01:13 AM
I'm not sure why you don't believe this is possible today.

It seems all signs lead to a universal government structure of some sort in the near future.

I am wondering if you could tell me why you don't feel it is possible today for someone to rule the world.

Well if you recall we have had this discussion many times before and I really don't have any thing new to add to that...

:) have a nice evening.

God bless

White Spider
Sep 16th 2008, 01:15 AM
Well if you recall we have had this discussion many times before and I really don't have any thing new to add to that...

:) have a nice evening.

God bless

Oh, ok, thought there may have been some other reasons . . .

You have a good evening too. :hug:

Gods Child
Sep 16th 2008, 04:53 AM
Daniel and Revelation give us the biggest insight into the World Governments, both past and future.

To date there have been six One World Governments throughout history. We can read of these past One World Governments throughout the history and the Bible.

(1) Egypt
(2) Assyria
(3) Babylon (Head of Gold)
(4) Medo-Persia, (Arms of Silver)
(5) Greece (Belly & Thy of Brass)
(6) Rome (Legs of Iron)
(7) Last World Government
(8) Anti-christ

Daniel 2:37 - The first two One world kingdoms, Egypt and Assyria, had already fallen at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Therefore, they were excluded from the dream of the image.

From the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, history shows that there have been 4 One world governments fulfilled (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece & Rome). Rome was the last One World Government and they ruled during the time of Jesus. There is yet 1 more One World government to come upon the earth and that is the Iron & Clay of Nebuchadnezzar dream.

******************************************

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/ckjauctions/Bible/DANIEL2-IMAGE-.png

****************************************
At the end of Prophecy there will have been a total of 7 One World Governments to rule the earth.
The anit-christ will be the 8th, but part of the 7th (last) world Government.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The 10 kings give their power to the beast, which shows a one world government.

In Daniel 7, we are told that there are beasts of - the lion with eagles wings-bear-leopard/fowl. We are told in Daniel 7 that these beast are kings/kingdoms. We are also told that, the little horn (anitchirst) will come up from among these beasts.
In Daniel 7 we see that these beast are separate, but by Rev 13 we see that these beast become one, which also shows us the last One World Government.

moonglow
Sep 16th 2008, 02:41 PM
Daniel and Revelation give us the biggest insight into the World Governments, both past and future.

To date there have been six One World Governments throughout history. We can read of these past One World Governments throughout the history and the Bible.

(1) Egypt
(2) Assyria
(3) Babylon (Head of Gold)
(4) Medo-Persia, (Arms of Silver)
(5) Greece (Belly & Thy of Brass)
(6) Rome (Legs of Iron)
(7) Last World Government
(8) Anti-christ

Daniel 2:37 - The first two One world kingdoms, Egypt and Assyria, had already fallen at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Therefore, they were excluded from the dream of the image.

From the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, history shows that there have been 4 One world governments fulfilled (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece & Rome). Rome was the last One World Government and they ruled during the time of Jesus. There is yet 1 more One World government to come upon the earth and that is the Iron & Clay of Nebuchadnezzar dream.

******************************************

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/ckjauctions/Bible/DANIEL2-IMAGE-.png

****************************************
At the end of Prophecy there will have been a total of 7 One World Governments to rule the earth.
The anit-christ will be the 8th, but part of the 7th (last) world Government.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The 10 kings give their power to the beast, which shows a one world government.

In Daniel 7, we are told that there are beasts of - the lion with eagles wings-bear-leopard/fowl. We are told in Daniel 7 that these beast are kings/kingdoms. We are also told that, the little horn (anitchirst) will come up from among these beasts.
In Daniel 7 we see that these beast are separate, but by Rev 13 we see that these beast become one, which also shows us the last One World Government.

Well that is a different view...while I don't agree with it, I thank you for sharing it...the more we study the more we learn! :)

Most read it as the eight rulers of Rome since the bible says 'kings'. From my end time view, the little horn was Nero.

http://www.forerunner.com/daniel/X0005_Interpretation_of_Da.html
Daniel 7

By Jay Rogers
Published May 2008
21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The same horn made war with the saints — Nero began a persecution of the saints which began in AD 63 and lasted until his death.

22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Another shall rise after them — Nero was not in the direct line of succession, but three Emperors were assassinated to make way for him.

25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Until a time and times and the dividing of time — Literally, “time, times, half a time.” If we understand a time to mean a year, then it is three and a half years. Nero’s persecution of the church lasted exactly 42 months or three and a half years. (the full article is at the link).

God bless

White Spider
Sep 16th 2008, 06:42 PM
moonglow:

I know what you believe and we have agreed to disagree which is fine, but I was wondering where you see the world headed in the next decade or two and what you believe the End of the World will be.

I have always, and still do, believed the The Great Tribulation was a part of the End of Days. Since you believe it has happened, what do you see the end as? Just something I was wondering about.

And if you have explained this before, I am sorry, but I have forgotten.

Again, just want to hear your view as an interested listener.

Thanks :)

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 01:38 AM
moonglow:

I know what you believe and we have agreed to disagree which is fine, but I was wondering where you see the world headed in the next decade or two and what you believe the End of the World will be.

I have always, and still do, believed the The Great Tribulation was a part of the End of Days. Since you believe it has happened, what do you see the end as? Just something I was wondering about.

And if you have explained this before, I am sorry, but I have forgotten.

Again, just want to hear your view as an interested listener.

Thanks :)

http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/kgbr/kgbr.html

The Beast of Revelation
by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr 1989


The Last Days

This book is about the last days. It is not about the end times. The last days are different from the end times. The last days are not in the present or in the future; they are in the past. Still confused? So are millions of other Christians. The confusion stems from the fact that Christians have jumped to the conclusion..a wholly erroneous conclusion ..that the "last days" spoken of in the New Testament refer to the last days of the church (or to the misleading identified "Church Age") This conclusion is not warrented by the various biblical texts. The last days spoken of in the New Testament were scatological last days only for the national Israel, not for the New Covenant church. The "last days" were in fact the early days of the church of Jesus Christ.

How do we know this? How do we know that we are not now living in the last days and never will be? How do we know that the New Testament was written in the last days, which came to a close over 1,900 years ago? Because the New Testament clearly says so. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews specifically identified his own era as the "last days." He wrote that God "Hath in this last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1:2). He was quite clear: he and his contemporaries were living in the last days.

The Destruction of the Temple

So, we need to ask this obvious question: The last days of what? The answer is clear: the last days of the Old Covenant, including national Israel. The New Testament writers were living in the last days of animal sacrifices in the temple. This is the primary message of the Epistle to the Hebrews: the coming of a better sacrifice, a once-and-for-all sacrifice, Jesus Christ. We read:" And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of enternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator" (Heb. 9:15-16). The inescapable concomitant of Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was His annulment of the Old Covenant's sacrificial system:

And almost all the things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; bu the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true: but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.......

But what about the Beast?

Well, what about the beast? If my thesis is correct--that the phrase "the last days" refers to the last days of Old Covenant Israel and the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70..then who was the beast? After all if Net Testament prophesies regarding the beast were not fulfilled during the lifetime of John, but refer to some individual still in the church's future, there wold seem to be no reason to believe that the other prophecies regarding 'the last days' were also fulfilled in his day. These prophecies must be taken as a unit. It is clear that the beast is a figure who is said to be alive in the last days. This is why it is imperative that we discover who the beast is or was. If he has not yet appeared, then the last days must also be ahead of us, unless we have actually entered into them. If he has already appeared, then the last days are over. This book identifies the prophesied beast beyond any reasonable doubt. This much I will tell you now; it is not Henry Kissinger.

If all of the potential buyers of The Beast of Revelation were to discover in advance that it is not filled with prophecies about brain-implanted computer chips, tattoos with identification numbers, cobra helicopters, nuclear war, and New Age conspiracies, most of them would not buy it. Customers of most Christian bookstores too often prefer to be excited by the misinformation provided by a string of paperback false prophecies than to be comforted by the knowledge that the so-called Great Tribulation is long behind us. and that it was Israel's tribulation, not the church's. (For bibical proof, see David Chilton's book, The Great Tribulation.)

12 They want thrills and chills, not accurate Bible exposition' they want a string of 'secret insights,' not historical knowledge. Like legions of imaginative children sitting in front of the family radio back in the 1930's and 1940's who faithfully bought their Oval tine, tore off the wrapper, and sent it to receive an official "Little Orphan Annie secret decoder," fundamentalist Christians are repeatedly lured by the tempting promise that they can be 'the first ones on their block' to be 'on the inside'...to be the early recipients of the 'inside dope.' And that is just exactly what they have been sold, decade after decade.

I realize this didn't exactly answer your question....but I thought it was relevant. I think satan has to be released from the pit and then literally all hell will break out. Exactly what will happen...I don't know yet..still studying on that. Right now all I could do is guess. Then of course the return of Christ...the resurrection...the Great White Throne judgment and finally all death and all sin will be done away with...at last. And Paradise will be restored as God intended. :)

Oh and I should say I am sorry if parts of this article offends some. Since I was in that camp at one time, I realize how sensitive this can be...but that is what I now feel I fell for...the thrills and chills of the end times put out by those with intentions to make a buck and have a little feeling of power...:(

I do not live in fear of the beast or worrying about what the mark is..I doubt I will even still be alive when satan is released and its a wonderful freeing feeling to not try to connect every world event to the end times and wonder if 'this is it'. I lived that way most of my life and its not a fun way to live for sure....even though I thought I would be raptured 'before the bad stuff really started' their was still this horrible fear.. I am so glad I am free from that now.

God bless

Gods Child
Sep 17th 2008, 04:19 AM
Well that is a different view...while I don't agree with it, I thank you for sharing it...the more we study the more we learn! :)

Most read it as the eight rulers of Rome since the bible says 'kings'. From my end time view, the little horn was Nero.

http://www.forerunner.com/daniel/X0005_Interpretation_of_Da.html
Daniel 7

By Jay Rogers
Published May 2008
21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The same horn made war with the saints — Nero began a persecution of the saints which began in AD 63 and lasted until his death.

22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Another shall rise after them — Nero was not in the direct line of succession, but three Emperors were assassinated to make way for him.

25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Until a time and times and the dividing of time — Literally, “time, times, half a time.” If we understand a time to mean a year, then it is three and a half years. Nero’s persecution of the church lasted exactly 42 months or three and a half years. (the full article is at the link).

God bless

I do not understand. Why they would say Daniel 7 was referring to Nero?
It just does not add up.
Take a look....
In verse 13 it is plain that it says at this time is when the Son of Man comes in the clouds. Jesus did not come in the clouds at the time of Nero.
Verse 17 says these beast are four kings that come out of the earth at this time. Nero is not for kingdoms.
Verse 18 the Saints posses the kingdom for ever and ever at this time…The Saints did not poses the kingdom in the days of Nero.
Verse 22 Ancient of Days came (Jesus=clouds=VS 13) Saints poses the kingdom….Again Jesus did not come in the days of Nero and the Saints did not poses the Kingdom then.
Verse 25 He speaks words against God for 42 months…Same as Rev 13, which would place the timing at just prior to Jesus 2nd coming.
Verse 26 tells us that happens at the end….Nero was not the end.
Verse 27 the everlasting kingdom…Serve and obey Jesus…This did not happen for sure during the days of Nero.


7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever[/b].
7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
7:25 And[b] he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.( Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.)
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

By reading Daniel 7, I really do not see how this could be referring to the days of Nero.

White Spider
Sep 17th 2008, 05:28 AM
moonglow:

Thank you

I'm trying to really study partial-preterism and full, any books or sites you could point me too would also help.

It's just always seemed to me the tribulation was part of satan's release and God's return.

But looking at things there is a possibility they are separate, though just a possibility right now ;)

Anyways, Thank You, God Bless

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 02:08 PM
I do not understand. Why they would say Daniel 7 was referring to Nero?
It just does not add up.
Take a look....
In verse 13 it is plain that it says at this time is when the Son of Man comes in the clouds. Jesus did not come in the clouds at the time of Nero.

The phrase, coming on the clouds, does not mean the Second Coming of Jesus...it means judgment.

http://blog.absolutetruth.us
How did they understand the language about clouds in the Old Testament culture setting?

Clouds are depicted as the chariots of God and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12ff Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In Psalm 18 which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come. He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who rides on the heaven of heavens and his strength is in the clouds. Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God makes the clouds his chariots and walks on the wings of the wind.

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt. We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the great day of the Lord is near; and that it would be a day of wrath, distress, and a day of clouds, when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4ff. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet. El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant.

The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, He has spoken blasphemy Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven

One final thought. We would note the New Testament TIME FRAME for the coming of Jesus in the clouds. Patently Jesus told Caiaphas he would see Jesus' return in the clouds. He did not say he would die and millenia later be resurrected to view the parousia. He was living and was told he would witness Jesus' return, which we hope is now understood to be the exercise of his Messianic sovereignty by an act of judgment.

In Matthew 24:30-34 we are told emphatically that the disciples' generation would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. Reader, how can the honest student of the word ignore such emphatic chronological parameters? How can we divorce Revelation 1:7 and the promise of the coming in the clouds, from Revelation 1:1-3 and the prediction it must shortly come to pass and was at hand ?

All these things are profound but easily understood as long as we take the time to study them in their original (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written.



Verse 17 says these beast are four kings that come out of the earth at this time. Nero is not for kingdoms.

Four great beasts — These again are the four great kingdoms, the Chaldean, Medio-Persian, Greek and Roman Empires. This is the same vision as in chapter two, but with different symbolism. While some choose to understand the fourth beast as the successors of Alexander, especially the kings who ruled in Asia and Syria, the thrust of the whole prophecy of Daniel indicates that it is the Roman Empire at the time of the coming of Christ.

Ten horns — These are the ten kings also mentioned in Revelation 17:12. These ten kings are the ten Emperors of the Roman Empire to AD 70. The Roman Emperors were greater than all the other world rulers before them. Including Julius Caesar, there are ten Emperors until the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. They are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian. The reign of these kings parallel the period of the ministry of the Messiah and of the Apostles.

8. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Another little horn — Some have applied this to the Syrian ruler Antiochus Epiphanes during the time after Alexander. Antiochus’ desecration of the Temple in 167 BC is prophesied in Daniel 8:9. But keeping with the consistent application of this passage to the Roman Empire, I must conclude that this speaks of Nero Caesar. He is the little horn “among them” the sixth of the ten Emperors. Thus he is “another little horn.”


Verse 18 the Saints posses the kingdom for ever and ever at this time…The Saints did not poses the kingdom in the days of Nero.

http://www.forerunner.com/daniel/X0005_Interpretation_of_Da.html

Dominion, and glory, and a kingdom — Christ was given the keys of the kingdom by God the Father when he sat down at the right hand of God after His resurrection and ascension. This kingdom is not a future kingdom. It began in the days of the Roman Empire. It overcame Rome and will overcome all the kingdoms of this world. It will last forever.

The saints of the most High shall take the kingdom — Here is a dominion mandate given not only to Christ, but to the saints. We are to possess the whole kingdom the whole world for the dominion of Jesus Christ. This commission was given at the time of Christ.

An everlasting kingdom — The purpose of this passage, and the entire prophecy of Daniel, is to give the Jews a correct understanding of the time when the Messiah would come and to declare when the kingdom of heaven would come on earth. When Jesus declared that the kingdom of heaven was at hand, he alluded to Daniel stating that He was the Messiah, the Son of man spoken of by Daniel.


Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Verse 22 Ancient of Days came (Jesus=clouds=VS 13) Saints poses the kingdom….Again Jesus did not come in the days of Nero and the Saints did not poses the Kingdom then.

see above..


Verse 25 He speaks words against God for 42 months…Same as Rev 13, which would place the timing at just prior to Jesus 2nd coming.

http://www.forerunner.com/daniel/X0005_Interpretation_of_Da.html
Until a time and times and the dividing of time — Literally, “time, times, half a time.” If we understand a time to mean a year, then it is three and a half years. Nero’s persecution of the church lasted exactly 42 months or three and a half years.

Judgment came....but it wasn't the Second Coming of Christ. We have been told for so long that means the Second coming of Christ, but comparing it to other expressions in the bible we can see this isn't what it really means. It means judgment.



Verse 26 tells us that happens at the end….Nero was not the end.

It was the end of Rome. At that time Rome ruled the world and oppressed the Jews and Christians. They were a pagan nations. As long as you worshiped pagan gods and their kings you were ok. If not, you paid with your life many times. When Nero killed himself the 'beast suffered a fatal wound'...meaning Rome the body of the beast died. Nero had no succeors as he had kicked his pregnant wife to death. See every ruler had to have a blood relative to take their place back then. There was no voting for who might rule. Since there were no blood relatives left....he had killed them all Rome went into civil war. But the 'beast rose again'...came back from the brink of 'death'. The death of a nation. The other kings also went after the Christians but eventually the beast was 'overcome by the testimony of the saints' and Constantine stopped the persecution of the Christians. Allowed the Christians to live in peace..his own mother was a Christian. While he acknowledged the Christian God, he never quite gave up his pagan god worship. But this was the first major step in allowing Christians to live in peace in Rome and eventually as we see, its the center of the Catholic faith and where the pope is. In some ways we could also say the beast isn't totally dead....overcome...restrained...but not totally dead. I don't want to say anymore on this as I realize that is a touchy subject and I don't want to offend or hurt anyone's feeling. The point is though Rome no longer feeds Christians to the lions!


Verse 27 the everlasting kingdom…Serve and obey Jesus…This did not happen for sure during the days of Nero.

see above



By reading Daniel 7, I really do not see how this could be referring to the days of Nero.

I hope the information I gave you helped.
More on Constantine:http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch24.htm

God bless

moonglow
Sep 17th 2008, 02:19 PM
moonglow:

Thank you

I'm trying to really study partial-preterism and full, any books or sites you could point me too would also help.

It's just always seemed to me the tribulation was part of satan's release and God's return.

But looking at things there is a possibility they are separate, though just a possibility right now ;)

Anyways, Thank You, God Bless

gee WS are you running a fever? ;) I think you need to check into the hospital and see if you are ok....:lol: I can't believe you are even checking this stuff out! But of course I am always happy when someone at least studies other views...I have studies quite a few other end time views (not all of them...seems like there are more then I can keep up with!) Doesn't hurt us one bit to just study them...might help with whatever view you already have too...you never know.

That last post I did for you did include a link to a free book...http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/kgbr/kgbr.htmlTHE BEAST OF REVELATION

Now for whatever reason the spelling on it is messed up...I don't know if someone did a rush job in putting it on the net or if some HTML codes messed it up or what...other then that its pretty good.

Here is another one you can download to PDF.

Before Jerusalem Fell by Gentry
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/2206_47e.htm

It gives a good arguement for an early dating of Revelation also.

God bless

blkbeauti2004
Oct 4th 2008, 04:24 AM
The Star of David or to be more accurate, the Star of Solomon was first associated with the Jews when Amshel Mayer Rothschild adopted it in the 1700's.
Most Jews did not go by last names in the small neighborhoods in Germany, but used symbols to represent their family. His family was a merchant and took the last name Bauer which translates to "farmer" in German, perhaps to hide their true wealth.
Later in life Amshel was a dealer of valuable coins and trinkets and found that lending was a lucrative business and found favor with Prince William IX of Hesse who endorsed Bauer's business. Bauer used the hexagram above the door of his business and later changed his sirname to Rothschild which translates as Rot(Red) and Schild(Shield) in German.
Rothschild was an Ashkenazi Jew, a Zionist, and a member of the Illumanti. His involvement in these secret societies play huge part in the world's financial debacles, wars, and is the reason that the flag of Israel bears the hexagram.

Yes, but that flag was designed after the holocaust in 1948 when Israel became a Nation again.

I do know the Pentagram is strong in occultism, but the hexagram is as well. Again the symbol of Saturn, whom many Pagan's worshipped is most commonly the hexagram.

1 Kings 11:7 ~ On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.

Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molek, Ba'al, or Remphan are among the names used for this god, as well as other names. Here's a few verses where Moloch is referenced in various forms of his name (1 Kings 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:5;&version=9;), 1 Kings 11:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:33;&version=9;), 1 Kings 22:53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2022:53;&version=9;), 2 Kings 23:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2023:13;&version=9;) and Zephaniah 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zephaniah%201:5;&version=9;))

This is where the star comes from:

Amos 5:26 ~ But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star [Saturn] of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Acts 7:43 ~ Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star [Saturn] of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Saturn's symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg/180px-Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg.png

The six pointed star was used by Solomon when he turned to Pagan gods, the Seal of Solomon. It was used in ancient times as you pointed out, but it was not of Jewish use. People often confuse that and there is a lot of misinformation on the web because Solomon is the son of David and was right with God for a time, they think because Solomon used it it was Jewish, but he used it after turning away from God for Pagan purposes. Also why it's wrongly considered the "Star of David" which it most certainly is not.

As I stated before it did not become Jewish until Hitler used it to mark the Jews. Why did he mark the Jews with the symbol of Moloch/Remphan etc. you may wonder?

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits. (The ginger bread man :hmm:)

As I said before it was not until Hitler used the star to mark the Jews was it even related in any way to Judaism. And he marked them for sacrifice.

Holocaust by definition is - "burnt sacrifice"

ross3421
Oct 4th 2008, 04:30 AM
That is a good point there. Though I never heard of the New World Order being in reference to the New Heaven and New Earth...its always been related to the antichrist (beast).

God bless

The kingdom of God is a "type" of a new world order is it not?

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 24th 2011, 10:33 PM
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/kgbr/kgbr.html

The Beast of Revelation
by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr 1989


The Last Days

This book is about the last days. It is not about the end times. The last days are different from the end times. The last days are not in the present or in the future; they are in the past. Still confused? So are millions of other Christians. The confusion stems from the fact that Christians have jumped to the conclusion..a wholly erroneous conclusion ..that the "last days" spoken of in the New Testament refer to the last days of the church (or to the misleading identified "Church Age") This conclusion is not warrented by the various biblical texts. The last days spoken of in the New Testament were scatological last days only for the national Israel, not for the New Covenant church. The "last days" were in fact the early days of the church of Jesus Christ.

How do we know this? How do we know that we are not now living in the last days and never will be? How do we know that the New Testament was written in the last days, which came to a close over 1,900 years ago? Because the New Testament clearly says so. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews specifically identified his own era as the "last days." He wrote that God "Hath in this last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1:2). He was quite clear: he and his contemporaries were living in the last days.

The Destruction of the Temple

So, we need to ask this obvious question: The last days of what? The answer is clear: the last days of the Old Covenant, including national Israel. The New Testament writers were living in the last days of animal sacrifices in the temple. This is the primary message of the Epistle to the Hebrews: the coming of a better sacrifice, a once-and-for-all sacrifice, Jesus Christ. We read:" And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of enternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator" (Heb. 9:15-16). The inescapable concomitant of Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was His annulment of the Old Covenant's sacrificial system:

And almost all the things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; bu the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true: but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.......

But what about the Beast?

Well, what about the beast? If my thesis is correct--that the phrase "the last days" refers to the last days of Old Covenant Israel and the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70..then who was the beast? After all if Net Testament prophesies regarding the beast were not fulfilled during the lifetime of John, but refer to some individual still in the church's future, there wold seem to be no reason to believe that the other prophecies regarding 'the last days' were also fulfilled in his day. These prophecies must be taken as a unit. It is clear that the beast is a figure who is said to be alive in the last days. This is why it is imperative that we discover who the beast is or was. If he has not yet appeared, then the last days must also be ahead of us, unless we have actually entered into them. If he has already appeared, then the last days are over. This book identifies the prophesied beast beyond any reasonable doubt. This much I will tell you now; it is not Henry Kissinger.

If all of the potential buyers of The Beast of Revelation were to discover in advance that it is not filled with prophecies about brain-implanted computer chips, tattoos with identification numbers, cobra helicopters, nuclear war, and New Age conspiracies, most of them would not buy it. Customers of most Christian bookstores too often prefer to be excited by the misinformation provided by a string of paperback false prophecies than to be comforted by the knowledge that the so-called Great Tribulation is long behind us. and that it was Israel's tribulation, not the church's. (For bibical proof, see David Chilton's book, The Great Tribulation.)

12 They want thrills and chills, not accurate Bible exposition' they want a string of 'secret insights,' not historical knowledge. Like legions of imaginative children sitting in front of the family radio back in the 1930's and 1940's who faithfully bought their Oval tine, tore off the wrapper, and sent it to receive an official "Little Orphan Annie secret decoder," fundamentalist Christians are repeatedly lured by the tempting promise that they can be 'the first ones on their block' to be 'on the inside'...to be the early recipients of the 'inside dope.' And that is just exactly what they have been sold, decade after decade.

I realize this didn't exactly answer your question....but I thought it was relevant. I think satan has to be released from the pit and then literally all hell will break out. Exactly what will happen...I don't know yet..still studying on that. Right now all I could do is guess. Then of course the return of Christ...the resurrection...the Great White Throne judgment and finally all death and all sin will be done away with...at last. And Paradise will be restored as God intended. :)

Oh and I should say I am sorry if parts of this article offends some. Since I was in that camp at one time, I realize how sensitive this can be...but that is what I now feel I fell for...the thrills and chills of the end times put out by those with intentions to make a buck and have a little feeling of power...:(

I do not live in fear of the beast or worrying about what the mark is..I doubt I will even still be alive when satan is released and its a wonderful freeing feeling to not try to connect every world event to the end times and wonder if 'this is it'. I lived that way most of my life and its not a fun way to live for sure....even though I thought I would be raptured 'before the bad stuff really started' their was still this horrible fear.. I am so glad I am free from that now.

God bless


You know, I was really starting to take this guy's views seriously -- until he went into his rant mocking and judging other Christians who DO believe in the pre-trib rapture. Sorry, but I can't take someone who likes to make fun of other Christians who hold doctrinal differences seriously.

Thank you, though, for the clip.

moonglow
Sep 25th 2011, 12:38 AM
You know, I was really starting to take this guy's views seriously -- until he went into his rant mocking and judging other Christians who DO believe in the pre-trib rapture. Sorry, but I can't take someone who likes to make fun of other Christians who hold doctrinal differences seriously.

Thank you, though, for the clip.

Are you referring to this part of what I posted?

12 They want thrills and chills, not accurate Bible exposition' they want a string of 'secret insights,' not historical knowledge. Like legions of imaginative children sitting in front of the family radio back in the 1930's and 1940's who faithfully bought their Oval tine, tore off the wrapper, and sent it to receive an official "Little Orphan Annie secret decoder," fundamentalist Christians are repeatedly lured by the tempting promise that they can be 'the first ones on their block' to be 'on the inside'...to be the early recipients of the 'inside dope.' And that is just exactly what they have been sold, decade after decade.

If so I don't see it as mocking at all but he really is stating what goes on among some Christians. This secret insight they crave can be applied to much more then the end times also. Its a very dangerous thing actually as these people pretend to have an insight to God that others don't and the Lord was very stern and harsh and judgmental when it came to false prophets..which is what he is talking about here. Plus the bible does give us permission to judge other Christians when they are sinning. 1 Corinthians 5This is a sin of pride...just to mention one thing. Now that doesn't mean that their aren't true prophets...not saying that at all. But if you take a look at the highest selling books on the Christian market...most are about the end times and the authors tend to claim having these kinds of secret insights. The author of this article didn't say it was just pretrib rapture believers, or mid term, or whatever that did this but in fact said:
fundamentalist Christians are repeatedly lured by the tempting promise that they can be 'the first ones on their block' to be 'on the inside' And we are. We tend to be very gullible at times. I have heard more then one pastor say this is why we are refereed to as sheep in the bible. Without a Shepherd we are indeed going to just be wandering around lost.

God bless

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 2nd 2011, 04:09 AM
Yes, I understand what you are saying but the truth of the matter is, he is treading on the territory of judging every Christian's motive who holds a view that disagrees with his. How does HE know what is in their hearts?!