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Gosu164
Sep 8th 2008, 03:05 PM
Hello,

I came across this verse Romans 3:6, which it says (NCV, New Century Version) ...If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world.

I would like to discuss this matter in depth because it seems so simple. However, I feel there is something in that verse that is more.

So, if God doesn't judge us for our faith in Jesus, then He cannot punish us by giving us either eternal life or eternal sorrow (in other word, Hell)??

To my understanding, if we have faith in Jesus Christ, then we are freed from punishment and judgment.

I was often asked this question, which "So, if I don't believe in Jesus, then I will go to hell? But then God loves us all, why cannot He just take all of us to heave with Him? I mean, it's like He is mean"...

I always am not sure how to answer that question...

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Auzy

tt1106
Sep 8th 2008, 03:32 PM
Paul is referring to the judgement of the Jews. He is throwing out possible arguments and providing arguments against them.
I think alot of non-christians flal into traps on supposing to know what God is like.
God is not a guy with a white beard who decides moment by moment who gets a ticket in.
God is a righteous being. God is all power and pure. Sin cannot exist in the presence of righteousness.
God cannot change his nature. God cannot make his nature less pure, allowing the moderately sinful or rarely sinful to hang out with him.
The only people in heaven are those that have put their faith in Jesus, believe the promise of the covenant, which is not only believing in Jesus but choosing to live as close to sin free as humanly possible, in order to receive the reward of communion with God in the afterlife.
God shed his sons blood to take on the sins of the world. The almighty creator of the universe did this for us, so we may live forever in his presence. Who are we to turn that down and TELL God that he should let us enjoy him forever because he loves us.
In this case, although he loves us, he is just and righteous and he cannot allow just anybody into his presence.
Now HEAR THE GOOD NEWS: Jesus died so that we may live. If you continue to believe in Jesus and if you continue to walk as the Rabbi taught you to walk, you will have life eternal. Believe the promise and live or do what you want to do and perish.

-Blessings Gosu.

threebigrocks
Sep 8th 2008, 08:05 PM
The nature of the OP question would make Apologetics and Evangelism forum the best place for this thread. Moving it there for continued discussion. :)

drew
Sep 8th 2008, 08:09 PM
Paul is referring to the judgement of the Jews.
I entirely agree. If you "dive into" Romans 3:6 without reading the previous verses (including chapter 2), one might not realize that Paul is here very specifically talking about the Jews.

Richard H
Sep 8th 2008, 09:34 PM
It’s also an argument against the idea of “license to sin” in order to “glorify” God.
the Nicolaitan view.
http://acts1711.com/nic.htm (http://acts1711.com/nic.htm)

Even if this letter was written, before the time of the Nicolaitans, the concept was already beginning to take root.

Sold Out
Sep 8th 2008, 11:26 PM
Hello,

I came across this verse Romans 3:6, which it says (NCV, New Century Version) ...If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world.

I would like to discuss this matter in depth because it seems so simple. However, I feel there is something in that verse that is more.

So, if God doesn't judge us for our faith in Jesus, then He cannot punish us by giving us either eternal life or eternal sorrow (in other word, Hell)??

To my understanding, if we have faith in Jesus Christ, then we are freed from punishment and judgment.



Auzy
I don't like that translation. Here is Romans 3:5,6 in KJV:

"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? "

This verse is saying that God is not unrighteous because He takes
vengeance on sinners. In fact, punishing the unrighteous demontrates God's righteousness.

Gosu164
Sep 9th 2008, 12:25 PM
I entirely agree. If you "dive into" Romans 3:6 without reading the previous verses (including chapter 2), one might not realize that Paul is here very specifically talking about the Jews.

I don't understand why it matters if it refer to Jews? I thought all of us are under only one higher power, God. Therefore, we are also judged by God for our wrongdoings while living our Christian lives.

Please clarify it for me.

Also, are you saying that punishing people for their sins show that God is righteous? To set apart these sinners from these who are righteous to show the world that God is pure?

Please explain a bit more...

Thanks,

Auzy

faroutinmt
Sep 9th 2008, 12:47 PM
Hi, I'm new here and would like to add some thoughts.

I really believe that we have a twisted view of God's righteousness, because of our own feelings of guilt. That is, we know that we ourselves are guilty of sin and therefore would like to believe that we don't deserve to be punished. I think this is why we (myself included) struggle with the idea of a good God punishing sinners.

The fact is, it's because God is so good that He punishes sin. A judge would not be good and just if he were to allow criminals to go free. It is because God is good that He hates sin and seeks to bring justice about.

We all know in our hearts that sin deserves to be punished when it is committed against us and we become angry when we hear of unjust things which happen in the world. But the reality is that each one of us are guilty of evil in God's eyes and deserve His just wrath. It would be a good thing for God to do the world a favor and give us the justice we deserve. This, I believe is what makes the cross of Christ so amazing. God cannot just forgive sinners and be just. He must punish sin and our sin was punished when Christ took our sin upon Himself.

I truly believe that if we do not come to grips with the fact that we deserve to be in hell for our sins, we will always see God as unfair and harsh. When we have the same opinion of our sin that God has, we will be amazed and overwhelmed that He would send His Son to die in our place: the innocent suffering for the guilty. That is truly the love of God. :)

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 04:55 PM
I don't understand why it matters if it refer to Jews? I thought all of us are under only one higher power, God. Therefore, we are also judged by God for our wrongdoings while living our Christian lives.

Please clarify it for me.

Also, are you saying that punishing people for their sins show that God is righteous? To set apart these sinners from these who are righteous to show the world that God is pure?

Please explain a bit more...

Thanks,

Auzy

Hi Auzy,
I don’t know that it was written to Jews. I think it may have been written to Romans
(Which some Jews were trying to convince to adhere strictly to Torah.)

Second question:
If there is no punishment for the sinner, then Jesus died in vain. (Certainly we ALL deserve punishment.)
It would not be right (unrighteous) for God to give everybody a ‘free pass’ at the judgment.

In the typical MAN centered theology, God wanted to express His love and so He created us.
That IS true, but there is a larger reality.
God is multi-faceted.
(one thing God has spoken; two things I have heard) (Found several times in Proverbs)

In a GOD centered theology, creation (people and the world) are to be exhibit-A in the judgment against Lucifer/Satan. :eek:

If creatures who generally experience God through faith, choose (of their own free will) to yield to the authority of YHWH,
than the more powerful and yet rebellious angels (lead by Satan) are without excuse.

It’s not as warm and fuzzy for us, but it IS comforting to realize that hell was not created for us. It was created for Satan.
God's goal is not to punish people, but Lucifer/Satan.

We are either Exhibit-A or collateral damage. Now, that’s just not warm and fuzzy at all. J

God is righteous in pronouncing judgment on ALL of us.
And punishment for the guilty distinguishes:
the holy from the unholy,
the righteous from the unrighteous,
the Truth from the lie
and the light from the dark.
Yes, it demonstrates God’ righteousness.

Thankfully, part of that plan meant showing His mercy in providing the Messiah to take on our guilt.

Richard

Sold Out
Sep 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
Hi, I'm new here and would like to add some thoughts.

I really believe that we have a twisted view of God's righteousness, because of our own feelings of guilt. That is, we know that we ourselves are guilty of sin and therefore would like to believe that we don't deserve to be punished. I think this is why we (myself included) struggle with the idea of a good God punishing sinners.

The fact is, it's because God is so good that He punishes sin. A judge would not be good and just if he were to allow criminals to go free. It is because God is good that He hates sin and seeks to bring justice about.

We all know in our hearts that sin deserves to be punished when it is committed against us and we become angry when we hear of unjust things which happen in the world. But the reality is that each one of us are guilty of evil in God's eyes and deserve His just wrath. It would be a good thing for God to do the world a favor and give us the justice we deserve. This, I believe is what makes the cross of Christ so amazing. God cannot just forgive sinners and be just. He must punish sin and our sin was punished when Christ took our sin upon Himself.

I truly believe that if we do not come to grips with the fact that we deserve to be in hell for our sins, we will always see God as unfair and harsh. When we have the same opinion of our sin that God has, we will be amazed and overwhelmed that He would send His Son to die in our place: the innocent suffering for the guilty. That is truly the love of God. :)

Fantastic quote. I couldn't have said it any better myself. God is good BECAUSE He punishes lawbreakers (sinners).

Gosu164
Sep 11th 2008, 01:19 PM
Hey, first two posts after my replied message are simply great and easy to understand!!

Thanks for your effort to make sure I understand it clearly...

I appreciate it...

Once again, thanks...

Looking forward to work with you soon (by that I mean talk with you guys a bit more)

Auzy

mrsb
Sep 11th 2008, 01:50 PM
great discussion! I would like to add a connected thought: what if we truly entered into complete relationship with our Father? If we were to "do what Jesus did" and only do what we "see our Father doing"? We would not have any discussion about punishment left for us---we would be following the perfect will of God.

Of course, if you do not subscribe to Christian faith and the Christian scripture, there is no reasonable way to apply Christian standard. A fallacy in the topic of "Christians" and "punishment" is that there would be any reason for God to punish those who are following Him.

Am I saying we who choose to follow Christ never fail? No, not ever; we are still in fallible flesh and will stumble...but does an occasional stumble or ignorant single episode choice lead to a reasonable discussion of Christians going to hell? I say no, what the word describes is purposeful, even committed rebellion, which is defined as rejecting the Sovereignty of God.

Alaska
Sep 12th 2008, 10:17 PM
I would say that we should examine ourselves to see if there is any area of understanding we have adopted from loose Christianity today that would put us in the category of rebellion (in that particular area of our understanding).

Since Jesus' way is the way of the Spirit of God, which is at enmity with the works of the flesh, the prospect is a real one, of certain areas of understanding having been compromised by false teachers presenting their false doctrine with good words and fair speeches in order to please the flesh and to draw away disciples after themselves.

Having Paul contradict James concerning our works having part in justification is a good example of compromised rebellion.