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Lady Ashanti
Sep 8th 2008, 07:48 PM
The Truth about "Once Saved, Always Saved"...[sorry, this was the original title]...


I now see how harmful this doctrine is because it is a “stepping stone” to the “Doctrine of Inclusion”, which is damnable. This doctrine here makes it very easy to receive the “Inclusion” beliefs.


Some people seem to want a salvation plan, which consists of all privileges, with no responsibility. Privileges without responsibilities produces spoiled children, and that is not what the Lord is doing. He said … “Make disciples…Matthew 28:19-20. Before Christ, we had no choice, we were slaves to sin…Romans 6: 1-6, but now IN Christ, we are responsible for our choices…James 4:17.

First, I would like to say that I do not believe that you can do anything to earn your salvation, it is by grace that we are saved, it is a gift of God…Ephesians 2:8-9, but this is not about receiving salvation, this is about the maintenance of that salvation you have received.

I believe that we have to do, or live a certain, disciplined lifestyle, once we are saved. Just because Jesus Christ died for our sins, and grace is free, we seem to think that we are not accountable to have to do anything once we are Christians.

Others would say, “we don’t have to concern ourselves with sin because Jesus died for past sin, present sin, and future sin…true! He died once and for all, He is also the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and that did not change the scenarios in Genesis chapters 3-6. We must remember there are three to salvation, and repentance is one of them, [seeing our sin as God does, and turning from sin to God]. First repentance must be applied, then the blood…Luke 13:3.

Yes, Jesus died to wash away all of our sins, but that forgiveness is predicated upon repentance, which does not mean just being sorry for your sins, (that is just the first step), but turning from your behavior, and turning to the Lord, and His ways, (this is our part). I also believe one can reach sinless perfection, but it will not be without some effort on our part.

We need to look at the original definition for grace, which is not unmerited favor, (which we have been taught), but actually: “the Divine influence on the heart, and It’s reflection in the life”. Grace is not to cover our sin, (the blood of Jesus did that at the cross), but to give us the power not to sin. That same grace that saved us, gives us power over sin in our lives.

How can we believe the Spirit of the Lord has power to work miracles, to provide, to heal, and then believe he does not have power over the sin in our lives? The problem is our belief system, because no matter what Jesus can and will do, if we don’t believe it, He cannot do it for US! (Matt 13: 58).

How do we believe that the Lord is concerned when we don’t tithe, but not concern when we are not holy? “Grace” can cover our sin, but not our lack of tithing? (Don’t get me wrong, I do tithe, and give, it just seems sort of hypocritical that’s all). We believe the Lord will deliver us from poverty, lack, even sickness, but not from practicing the sin for which He died to achieve victory over, [and what separates us from God’s holiness, lack, poverty, and/or sickness will not keep you from inheriting the Kingdom of God]. We exercise our faith for material gain, but will not exercise it to believe we can live holy, [exercise hurts the most in the weakest areas].

I believe that whatever we focus on, we will hit, [this is why we set goals in life]. If we focus on the statement, “no one is perfect, and never will be”, then this is what we will achieve. If we look through scripture and say I want to be like Enoch…Hebrews 11:5, or Joshua 24: 15, or better yet, Jesus…John 8:29, we will eventually achieve that also. Instead we want to focus on the failures of Abraham, and David so we can excuse our weak, [or wicked], behavior and behavior we excuse, we never change! Don’t get me wrong, I thank God that He saw fit to include those He loved in spite of their failures in scripture, this helps me to press pass my own failures and try again. I just don’t think the Lord wanted us to make them our goal, standard, or excuse!!! [I Cor. 10:1-11, also verse 12 does not stand independently, but refers to the preceding verses, stating that we should not be presumptuous in our living, thinking that because we have done all these things in verses 1-4, that you can do verses 6-10, and still make it in, your “standing” is not that secure].

[Also, I would like to say this, I have tried on numerous occasions to talk to Christians who believe this doctrine regarding these very scriptures, but each time, (except once), I was refused and the these scriptures were not addressed. I was not approaching them to argue, my reasoning was that if I am wrong regarding this doctrine, then I needed to change my stance. Since almost all of them refuse to address these scriptures, I have come to believe that their doctrine is built on the wrong foundation. The one man who was willing to review the scriptures and get back to me, called with repentance saying the word of God is right and he realized I was only concerned for his soul].

Now, we can talk about what we believe, or don’t believe, or what we think, but our opinions matter little if they are not supported by the word of God, so let’s look in the scriptures.

There are so many scriptures that have to be considered when researching this doctrine, so I have divided them into sections. (Also keep in mind that after the book of Acts, the remainder of scripture was written to the “church”, not to sinners. These were letters to the church, telling “us” how to live):

1)The Conditions for Eternal Security – Hebrews 5:9

a)Isaiah 1: 18-20…if you are willing and obedient.
b)John 14: 15, 21…love, obedience, manifestation.
c)John 15: 6-8…His words must abide in you.
d)Romans 2:13/James 1:22…the doers of the word are justified before God, not the hearers.
e)Romans 10: 13-16…once one calls on His name, they have to obey His voice.
f)I Peter 1: 13-17…grace as obedient children, being holy as he is holy. (Would the Lord ask something of us that was impossible for us to do)?

2)Stipulations:
a)Isaiah 59: 1-3…sin separates one from the Lord.
b)Ezekiel 3: 20-21/33: 12-13, 17…even before Christ, the Lord said the righteous does not sinned.
c)Luke 6: 46-49…what are you building on? If you are not doing what the Lord says, then you are building without a foundation.
d)John 15: 1-8…Abide in Him, let His word abide in us…
e)Acts 10: 35…to be accepted by Him, you must work righteousness.
f)Romans chapter 6…shall we continue in sin that grace may increase, God forbid…we should no longer be slaves to sin…Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies…whoever you obey, you are slaves to…(read the whole chapter, in fact, read the whole book of Romans).
g)Romans 8: 1…no condemnation to those who do not walk according to the flesh…
h)Exodus 32: 33/Revelations 3:5…if you do not overcome, your name can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Con't...

Grace, and Peace...

Lady Ashanti
Sep 8th 2008, 07:51 PM
Con't...

3)There is only two sides, no middle ground:
a)Matthew 12: 25, 26/Mark 3:25…house divided cannot stand.
b)Matthew 12: 30…either for Christ are against Him, (if you love me keep my commandments-John 14: 17, and how do you call Him “Lord”, and do not the things He says-Luke 6:46).
c)John 8: 41-47 (verse 38)…only two fathers, God or the devil.
d)I John 1: 5 thru 2: 6…if you say you know God…we must walk as Jesus did.

4)There are things we must do, (individual responsibility):
a)Matthew 10: 38-39/Mark 8:34…one must take up his cross, and then follow Christ. [Cross: (original definition) stake, post, pole, and instrument of punishment, exposure to death, self-denial].
b)Acts 2: 40… Save yourself…
c)Romans 6: 6-23…present your bodies as slaves to righteousness.
d)I Corinthians 6:12…don’t allow yourselves to be brought under the power of things that are not expedient.
e)I Corinthians 9: 27-10: 11…we still have a free will, and must us it to bring our own bodies under subjection.
f)II Corinthians 7: 1…we have to cleanse ourselves…
g)I Thessalonians 4: 3-5…possess your own vessel in sanctification.
h)II Timothy 2: 21…cleanse yourselves…
i)Hebrews 10: 36…after you have done the will of God…

5)Disciples (definition: disciplined followers of Christ):
a)Matthew 28: 19-20…we were not commissioned to make “Christians”, (although a Christian is suppose to be someone who is from or like Christ), we were commissioned to make “disciples”, people who are disciplined as Christ was.
b)Matthew 10: 22-25…we are to be like Christ! Was He holy, perfect, sinless, YES! Then why would He command us to be like Him, if it was something impossible for us to do?
c)Luke 14: 26-33…the cost of discipleship…
d)John 8: 31-36…disciples are not slaves to sin…
e)John 13: 35…disciples love…
f)John 15: 8…disciples are fruitful…
g)Hebrews 12:14…holiness without which no man shall see the Lord…
h)I Peter 1: 16…be you holy for I am holy…

6)The Bible does speak of those who were Christians but fell away:
a)Matthew 24: 13…you have to endure to the end…
b)Luke 12: 43-46…parable of the servant…
c)Romans 1: 21-32…they knew God…(v.21).
d)Romans 11: 16-24…you also will be cut off…(v. 21-22).
e)I Corinthians 10: 1-12…these were our examples to heed…
f)II Thessalonians 2: 3…apostasy in the church…
g)I Timothy 4: 1-2…departs from the faith…(for one to depart, he had to have been there).
h)Hebrews 6: 4-6…it is impossible to renew those if they fall away since they crucify afresh the Son of God…
i)Hebrews 10: 26-31…the case against willful sin…
j)II Peter 2: 18-22…they escaped but were entangled again…
k)Jude 5-6…did not continue…

7)Now, they say our “works” don’t matter, [can't earn salvation by works], but let’s look at the scriptures on our works AFTER accepting Christ:
a)Deuteronomy 30: 19-20/Joshua 24: 14-15…we have a free will, and when we give our lives to Christ, we still have a free will.
b)Matthew 16: 27…will reward everyone according to their works.
c)Romans 2: 6-13…judgement according to your deeds…doers, not just hears, are justified with God.
d)II Corinthians 5: 10…we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ to receive for the things done in this body…whether good or bad.
e)Philippians 2: 12-13…obeys…work out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling…(how?)…Christ working in your will.
f)Titus 1: 16…profess to know God but in their works, they deny Him…
g)James 2: 14-27…faith without works is dead…believing is not enough…
h)Revelations 14: 13…your works will follow you…
i)Revelations 20: 12…judged according to your works…
j)Revelations 22: 11-14…However you are when you die is how you will appear before the Lord…you will be rewarded according to your works…those who will have a right to the tree of life will be those who do His commandments.



Side Notes:


·I heard a Pastor say once, “There is one thing GRACE cannot do, grace cannot condemn the sinner while allowing the saints to go free for the same things”…I Corinthians 5: 9-13.
·We have to be aware and believe that the Lord will judge sin, no matter who it is in, sinner or professing saint…Luke 21: 36/Romans 2: 3-12.
·The Lord said He would give us power to be a witness, (not to do witnessing), not an action, but a lifestyle…Acts 1: 8.
·I heard a Pastor say once that we want to lean on needing “deliverance” because we do not want to be “disciplined”. Whether we like it or not, we are accountable for our actions, the Lord said, “ the day that you hear my voice harden not your heart”…Hebrews 3: 7-13, because if you know what is “good”, you are accountable to do it…James 4: 17.
·If the Lord is not concern when we sin because of grace, then explain the reason for I Corinthians 5: 9-13 and I Corinthians 5: 5.
·And what of “presumptuous” sinning? …Psalm 19:13
·Someone once said, “the difference between a sheep and a pig is that when a sheep falls in the mud, he cries to get out, but when a pig falls in the mud, he wallows and enjoys it. We are to be sheep, and the Lord once said to me, “sheep can easily go astray, this is why we need to follow the Shepherd very closely”.




Excuses:


·But Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us…(Hebrews 13: 5), and this is true. The issue is not Him leaving us, but us leaving Him. You know the Spirit of the Lord will not dwell in an unclean place…II Corinthians 6: 16 through 7:1.
·But nothing can separate us from the love of God…(Romans 8: 35-39), and this is true, nothing can separate us from the love of God, but I am not talking about being separate from His love, but His presence, fellowship, Kingdom. The Lord loves us unconditionally, even while we were yet sinners, “God commended His love toward us”…Romans 5: 8…but we were still on our way to hell. There is another aspect to God’s love…who He loves, He chastens…Hebrews 12: 5-7.
·But Jesus did a finished work, and this is true, it is our “work” that I am speaking about. We still have to put on Christ…Romans 13: 14/Ephesians 6: 12-14/II Peter 1: 5-8, and our salvation is a process. The Bible says, “they added to the church those who were being saved”…Acts 2: 47.
·But if we had to worry about our sins, that would make us very self-absorbed, but the Bible says we should “judge ourselves so we won’t need to be judged”…I Corinthians 11: 31, and to “examine ourselves”…I Corinthians 11: 28/II Corinthians 13: 5/Galatians 6: 4.
·But Paul said in Roman 7: 18-19… ‘For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice”…and this is true, but read on because he also said there was a remedy…verse 24-25…”what can deliver me from this body of death? …I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Grace and Peace...

Sold Out
Sep 8th 2008, 11:30 PM
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:1-3

Richard H
Sep 8th 2008, 11:46 PM
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:17-21

The Parson
Sep 9th 2008, 12:26 AM
I think maybe you have the foolishness of the ones who say you can live however you want to after you are saved and remain totally unscathed confused with the Eternal Security belief. The first is total nonsense and I agree a total danger. The term Eternal Security is another thing altogether which is possible you may not understand the BIG difference.

Be more than happy to tell you about it if you wish.

The Parson
Sep 9th 2008, 12:31 AM
By the way, it's probably best to start a thread with a statement of maybe a paragraph or two and then give the remainder of your assertion as the thread progresses. Give others a chance to discuss the matter and explore all the options. Just a suggestion.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 9th 2008, 12:57 AM
The inherent problem with your thesis is that it puts the belief in a vacuum. Maybe when one looks at perseverance of the saints by itself we can see the problems you see. However, when listed with sanctification, it doesn't work.

You're attacking a Calvinist doctrine, but placing it on an Arminian grid. In other words, you're taking the belief out of its bigger context. We believe we are secure because He has chosen us and has begun a good work in us and that He will be faithful to complete it.

Even in a non-Calvinist viewpoint, one can argue that we freely enter into a covenant in which He preserves us via sanctification.

To say it's a license to sin is really to admit that you don't really know much about the belief. ;)

Butch5
Sep 9th 2008, 01:03 AM
Lady, run for cover! No, seriously, I agree with most of your post. As stated above I would not use the term eternal security, I think a better term is "Once Saved, Always Saved" or "OSAS". Eternal security can be attained by the person who continues faithful in the gospel to the end. I also don't know about your statement of reaching "sinless perfection," I know Jesus said go and sin no more, but this may have ben metaphorical.

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 01:17 AM
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48

"Be" here is a future tense, so we might read it as: become.. perfect...

A continual process - with a goal that is certainly only obtainable through faith.

Still, I think the point is that we need to make effort toward that goal, rather than relying on completeness through a prayer that we once uttered.

The Parson
Sep 9th 2008, 01:23 AM
Ya mean something like this Richard???

Phillipians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 01:28 AM
Ya mean something like this Richard???

Phillipians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Yeah. That's it - exactly! :)

HisLeast
Sep 9th 2008, 01:33 AM
:huh:
(15 characters)

The Parson
Sep 9th 2008, 01:45 AM
:huh:
(15 characters)
There is always one in the crowd... :rofl:

HisLeast, it's a simple premise. Whereas we are saved by grace and ever working out our own slavation with fear and trembling (Phillipians 2:12) always pressing toward the mark of the High Calling in Christ (Phillipians 3:14). And trying to finish the race to Glory (Hebrews 12:1)

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 02:02 AM
:huh:
(15 characters)
If I understand this thread (it was a bit much - right at first),
The idea of "once saved always saved" is not scriptural.

I can remember repeating that "simple prayer" with the man on TV many times, but it wasn't until I made a real commitment to follow Jesus and make an real effort to grow in Him that my prayer really mattered.

"Once saved always saved" leads to complacency and ultimately to unfruitfulness. We are called to remain in Him - and that takes more than a one time "commitment". It is not our being "born again" that counts. it is finishing the race.

HisLeast
Sep 9th 2008, 02:22 AM
I thought it sounded like the old OSAS/NOSAS thing, but they changed all the terms around on me.

This conflict has always confused me. It seems the more I hear it, the more it sounds like both sides are saying the exact same thing. So where as the NOSASer (which is cliche, but for lack of a better term) will say that the "sinner's prayer reciter" often "doesn't finish the race", the OSASer most often is not including such people in their definition of saved (and thus always so).

In my experience, they almost always describe the same sample of people the exact same way.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 9th 2008, 02:23 AM
Lady, run for cover! No, seriously, I agree with most of your post. As stated above I would not use the term eternal security, I think a better term is "Once Saved, Always Saved" or "OSAS". Eternal security can be attained by the person who continues faithful in the gospel to the end. I also don't know about your statement of reaching "sinless perfection," I know Jesus said go and sin no more, but this may have ben metaphorical.

Thank you, the title was lost in the "cut and past'...LOL!!!:lol:

As far as running, the Lord gave us no armour for our backs... If led to, I can hit it head on...LOL...:B

Also, why do you think we cannot reach "sinless perfection", and believe it is metaphorical? Let's discuss because I believe you will be respectful...

Grace, and Peace...

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 02:37 AM
I thought it sounded like the old OSAS/NOSAS thing, but they changed all the terms around on me.

This conflict has always confused me. It seems the more I hear it, the more it sounds like both sides are saying the exact same thing. So where as the NOSASer (which is cliche, but for lack of a better term) will say that the "sinner's prayer reciter" often "doesn't finish the race", the OSASer most often is not including such people in their definition of saved (and thus always so).

In my experience, they almost always describe the same sample of people the exact same way.

You got it.

I have nothing against the sinner's prayer and one can mean it at the time, but (I know) it is easy to become distracted. Jesus told us to remain in Him - standing firm to the end. He also said that any tree that did not bear (good) fruit would be cut down and thrown in to the fire.

Rev 22:19 sort of clues us in that one can have their name in the book of life and then have it removed.

This hardly endorses OSAS. Thus when we witness to people, we should (when possible) also deciple them toward growing and bearing fruit of their own. To say "yer saved" and then go home is irresponsible.

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 03:14 AM
Thank you, the title was lost in the "cut and past'...LOL!!!:lol:

As far as running, the Lord gave us no armour for our backs... If led to, I can hit it head on...LOL...:B

Also, why do you think we cannot reach "sinless perfection", and believe it is metaphorical? Let's discuss because I believe you will be respectful...

Grace, and Peace...

No armor for our backs! :lol:

I think it is possible to approach sinlessness, but it takes total emersion in the Word and constant prayer/fellowship with God. It is a renewing of the mind.

I dove into the Word, because seeing girls walking around on campus, really put impure thoughts into my mind. I knew I had to begin see them as people that Jesus died for rather than objects of desire.

I've got close to having only pure thoughts, but only for a few weeks. It was a temporary lifestyle of seperation while still living in society that is difficult to maintain without burnout.

The exercise of renewing my mind really helped me mature and improved my ability to put away lust. I still have to battle lust from time to time.

gophgetter
Sep 9th 2008, 04:14 AM
What do you guys think of the scripture in the 1st chapter of James that says:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

I have two questions on this verse. First, is this written to Christians that are already believers? 2nd question. If this is written to believers, why would he say that the engrafted word is able to save our souls if our souls are already saved?

Goph:confused

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 05:11 AM
What do you guys think of the scripture in the 1st chapter of James that says:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

I have two questions on this verse. First, is this written to Christians that are already believers? 2nd question. If this is written to believers, why would he say that the engrafted word is able to save our souls if our souls are already saved?

Goph:confused

I never noticed it before, but James addressed the letter to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. That’s interesting.

Was he speaking to believers? Yes.

As I see it, to be “saved” is not a past event. It is an ongoing process beginning with being born anew and ending with resurrection.
The Word is instruction which should be heeded and acted upon. It is able to lead us into truth and holiness. (to be set-apart for God)

The next verse helps explain it.
“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

Salvation comes through faith – by receiving the word of God and allowing it to change us.

Richard

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 06:20 AM
PS: Remember that God is able to keep you and complete the good work that He began in you. That hope brings peace to the soul. :)

ananias
Sep 9th 2008, 12:15 PM
I don't believe in OSAS, but I also don't believe it's possible to reach a state of sinless perfection, either:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." (1Joh.1: 8-10).

Our Adam nature doesn't die until we die. Our Christ nature, through the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, helps us to subdue our Adam nature.

It's a question of attitude: Do we treat the grace of God as a license to sin, or do we hate our own sin, our own Adam nature that's still in us, and, in the words of Charles Spurgeon, bring it to the cross of the One whose name is "Yah is salvation", and say to Him, "Lord, you overcame sin and death, and your name is Jesus, because you save your people from their sins. Lord, this is one of my sins, save me from it"

It is an every-day commitment and an every-day bringing of our Adam nature to the cross of Jesus.

ananias.

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 02:57 PM
I don't believe in OSAS, but I also don't believe it's possible to reach a state of sinless perfection, either:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." (1Joh.1: 8-10).

Our Adam nature doesn't die until we die. Our Christ nature, through the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, helps us to subdue our Adam nature.

It's a question of attitude: Do we treat the grace of God as a license to sin, or do we hate our own sin, our own Adam nature that's still in us, and, in the words of Charles Spurgeon, bring it to the cross of the One whose name is "Yah is salvation", and say to Him, "Lord, you overcame sin and death, and your name is Jesus, because you save your people from their sins. Lord, this is one of my sins, save me from it"

It is an every-day commitment and an every-day bringing of our Adam nature to the cross of Jesus.

ananias.

I agree - It is not possible to attain sinless perfertion.
It is however, possible to renew one's mind (Rom 2:12)
through the Word, the Holy Spirit, and the full armor of God.
Is a renewed mind a state of being? No
It is a life long journey - with hills and valleys.

Have I now attained "sinless perfection"? NO. Not hardly!

But we ARE called into holiness - to set ourselves apart for God.

Even if I may have been able to
(it was not without effort on my part)
banash lust from my mind for a period of weeks and
change my perception of women.

Should I credit myself? No.
I'm powerless to change apart from Him.
Still, we are called to spiritual battle.

Did the "exersize" make me perfect? Not in the slightest.
Did I benefit from it? Yes.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 9th 2008, 07:12 PM
What do you guys think of the scripture in the 1st chapter of James that says:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

I have two questions on this verse. First, is this written to Christians that are already believers? 2nd question. If this is written to believers, why would he say that the engrafted word is able to save our souls if our souls are already saved?

Goph:confused

I am of the belief that we CHOOSE to be saved daily because we still have a free well, and if we choose to serve the enemy even after knowing the Lord , it is possible...

This is why the scriptures speak of backslidding, a "dog returning to his own vomit", and "crucifying the Lord afresh". the Lord will not save us against our will, nor will He keep us either. We do have ti take up our cross DAILY...
Luke 9:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=9&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Acts 2:47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&verse=47&version=50&context=verse)
praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 3: 3-9
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Matthew3: 18-23
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

ananias
Sep 9th 2008, 11:25 PM
I agree - It is not possible to attain sinless perfertion.
It is however, possible to renew one's mind (Rom 2:12)
through the Word, the Holy Spirit, and the full armor of God.
Is a renewed mind a state of being? No
It is a life long journey - with hills and valleys.

Have I now attained "sinless perfection"? NO. Not hardly!

But we ARE called into holiness - to set ourselves apart for God.

Even if I may have been able to
(it was not without effort on my part)
banash lust from my mind for a period of weeks and
change my perception of women.

Should I credit myself? No.
I'm powerless to change apart from Him.
Still, we are called to spiritual battle.

Did the "exersize" make me perfect? Not in the slightest.
Did I benefit from it? Yes.

So you're one of the brethren, then! Our sinful thought-life and the sinful desires of our flesh are the most stubborn of foes - just when we think they're well and truly dead, they seem to rise again from the dead and come back to taunt us.

But Jesus said,

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (Joh.15: 5).

And Paul said,

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.... O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom.7: 14-15, 24-25).

Meaning the flesh cannot conquer or expel the flesh. It is only Jesus who can do that.

ananias.

Butch5
Sep 10th 2008, 12:03 AM
Thank you, the title was lost in the "cut and past'...LOL!!!:lol:

As far as running, the Lord gave us no armour for our backs... If led to, I can hit it head on...LOL...:B

Also, why do you think we cannot reach "sinless perfection", and believe it is metaphorical? Let's discuss because I believe you will be respectful...

Grace, and Peace...

Hi Lady,

The reason I said run for cover was because I figured the faith only guys were going to start hurling verses at you. Let me rephrase my other statement, metaphorical probably isn't he best way to describe it. I should have said, maybe Jesus said go and sin no more knowing we would not be able to do so. The reason I said I don't think we can attain sinless perfection is because of thoughts. It may be attainable in the physical sense but I don't think it is in the mind.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 06:09 AM
Hi Lady,

The reason I said run for cover was because I figured the faith only guys were going to start hurling verses at you. Let me rephrase my other statement, metaphorical probably isn't he best way to describe it. I should have said, maybe Jesus said go and sin no more knowing we would not be able to do so. The reason I said I don't think we can attain sinless perfection is because of thoughts. It may be attainable in the physical sense but I don't think it is in the mind.

Yeah, I know...:rofl:I "aint" scared tho'...

I think "sinless perfection" is a process that can be achieved as we renew our minds, then our actions will line up. What is said, "Free yoru mind, and your "bottom" will follow".:hmm:

Example: I used to love to dance, and would go to the clubs only to dance. Early in my salvation, I still went every now, and then with believers from the OS/AS doctrine, however the Holy Ghost was convicting me. Since I enjoyed it so much, I would "repent" on Sunday, but then go again at the next opportunity-Friday/Saturday night. Finally I prayed, confessing to the Lord that I was tired of the merry go round [repent-do it again-then repent, etc]. That I couldn't stop because I enjoyed it too much, however because I knew it displeased Him, I wanted to stop. I asked Him to give me the strength to do this because that is why He died on Calvary to empower me to live the life He wanted me to, adn I was trusting in Him. I don't even remember when I lost the desire, but I did and it has been many years. This is true in so many areas, and in each of those areas,I have become sinlessly perfect because I don't do those things anymore.

If a person is a fornicator, and the Lord empowers them not to fornicate anymore, then they are perfect in that area, if a liar,and they stop lying then they are perfect in that area, the same with stealing, drugs, impure thoughts, etc. As the Lord reveals each area, and we get the victory, we become closer to that "sinless perfection", which is spiritual maturity.

As one takes up his/her cross daily and follows the Lord, allowing Him to shine that "search light" in them, [search me, Lord], reveal each area, and then strengthen them to deliverance then they become that "new creature", they get closer to it everyday.

We may not get there until Jesus comes, however at least we are on the "narrow" road, or we might get there as Enoch did, and just leave this world BEFORE the Rapture.:pp

One thing for sure is if we think it is impossible, or unattainable, or don't even try, we definitely won't get there...what is the old saying "if you aim at nothing, you will hit it".

Grace, and Peace...

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 09:46 PM
The Lord does not excuse habitual sin in those who profess salvation under "grace". He does not bring judgment on a struggle, however it is folly to think one can live in sin after professing Christ, and think grace will cover it. Grace cannot excuse the saint for things that condemn sinners:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version):

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 (New King James Version):

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Galatians 5:16-21 (New King James Version):

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 5:9-14 (New King James Version)

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 (New King James Version):

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

2 Peter 2:4-10 (New King James Version):

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries...

Revelation 22:14-16 (New King James Version):

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Thus saith the Lord...do with it what you will...

Grace, and Peace...

PS...

Revelation 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Butch5
Sep 11th 2008, 03:06 PM
Yeah, I know...:rofl:I "aint" scared tho'...

I think "sinless perfection" is a process that can be achieved as we renew our minds, then our actions will line up. What is said, "Free yoru mind, and your "bottom" will follow".:hmm:

Example: I used to love to dance, and would go to the clubs only to dance. Early in my salvation, I still went every now, and then with believers from the OS/AS doctrine, however the Holy Ghost was convicting me. Since I enjoyed it so much, I would "repent" on Sunday, but then go again at the next opportunity-Friday/Saturday night. Finally I prayed, confessing to the Lord that I was tired of the merry go round [repent-do it again-then repent, etc]. That I couldn't stop because I enjoyed it too much, however because I knew it displeased Him, I wanted to stop. I asked Him to give me the strength to do this because that is why He died on Calvary to empower me to live the life He wanted me to, and I was trusting in Him. I don't even remember when I lost the desire, but I did and it has been many years. This is true in so many areas, and in each of those areas,I have become sinlessly perfect because I don't do those things anymore.

If a person is a fornicator, and the Lord empowers them not to fornicate anymore, then they are perfect in that area, if a liar,and they stop lying then they are perfect in that area, the same with stealing, drugs, impure thoughts, etc. As the Lord reveals each area, and we get the victory, we become closer to that "sinless perfection", which is spiritual maturity.

As one takes up his/her cross daily and follows the Lord, allowing Him to shine that "search light" in them, [search me, Lord], reveal each area, and then strengthen them to deliverance then they become that "new creature", they get closer to it everyday.

We may not get there until Jesus comes, however at least we are on the "narrow" road, or we might get there as Enoch did, and just leave this world BEFORE the Rapture.:pp

One thing for sure is if we think it is impossible, or unattainable, or don't even try, we definitely won't get there...what is the old saying "if you aim at nothing, you will hit it".

Grace, and Peace...

I agree Lady, I think we are thinking a little differently. By sinless perfection I thought you meant getting to state where we no longer sin. I don't know that we can reach such a state. However I do agree that we can work on areas trying to attain such a state, whether we actually can or not. I agree also that many use this as an excuse, since you can't be sinless leave it up to the Lord. This is wrong also.