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IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 03:33 AM
I was thumbing through the Bible a couple days ago, and ran across this:


Luke 23:26 As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30 Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
and to the hills, "Cover us!" ' 31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed.


I did NOT expect to see that part in bold located where it was. This is something I would expect to see in Matthew 24, but--not here. Jesus was just whipped unconscious, on His way to be crucified, Simon was drafted to help carry the cross.... Then Jesus, concerned more for others than Himself even in the midst of all this, prophesies this. This is not exactly the time you "speak in parables". Jesus was obviously gravely concerned for THEM--the actual women mourning for Him. And it's a warning that should have been taken VERY seriously.

The parallelism with Matthew 24 et al. (in the Synoptic Gospels) I find striking. It is also a matter of perspective: how much do we over-intellectualize end-times theories, over something that was tantamount to Jesus' dying wish?

jeffweeder
Sep 9th 2008, 08:53 AM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.


"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

markedward
Sep 9th 2008, 12:21 PM
Hosea 10:8
Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"

Revelation 6:16-17
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 03:44 PM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.

Precisely. The fact that Jesus said this literally on His way to the Cross suggests that these apply to AD 70. Although I suppose it's still possible that it doesn't apply _only_ to AD 70, due to the sheer weight of this. When someone says something literally on their way to die, you take it VERY seriously.

SpokenFor
Sep 9th 2008, 04:14 PM
When Christ died on the cross he looked down through history - being fully God- and he saw every single person and all of our sins. Why in the world would he NOT be able to think beyond 70AD at that time?

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 05:34 PM
I have heard the "Why can't God do _____" argument for several different things. It's all a matter of context. When you just got whipped unconscious, collapsing under the weight of a cross, on your way to get yourself executed--that is not exactly the time you speak in mysterious, heavy parables. Jesus was speaking to THEM. Filled with compassion for the women weeping for Him, He was warning THEM. He would have been playing mind-games with them, big-time, not to.

markedward
Sep 9th 2008, 06:20 PM
Why in the world would he NOT be able to think beyond 70AD at that time?No one said He was unable to do so... just that He likely didn't do so, based on the circumstances.

Richard H
Sep 9th 2008, 06:37 PM
Speaking of prophecy and the cross…

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"-which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Mat 27:46

Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

SpokenFor
Sep 9th 2008, 10:10 PM
No one said He was unable to do so... just that He likely didn't do so, based on the circumstances.

That just does not make sense in light of who we are talking about. Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God. His Godness did not diminish one iota. To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future, and DID.

markedward
Sep 9th 2008, 11:36 PM
To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future...Did you not even read what I said?

I said no one else here stated that He was unable.

You keep saying "He was able" or "He could ". No one is disputing Jesus' ability to. Know what you're arguing against.

People were saying that given the [I]context and circumstances and the manner in which He spoke, that He likely didn't make a prophecy about a distantly future generation, not that He couldn't. Understand the difference, because you're making an argument against something no one even mentioned.


... and DID.This is what people were discussing.

Not whether He could, but whether He did.

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 11:45 PM
Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, actually I think Jesus may HAVE been near "kryptonite" at the moment. God had forsaken Him. Part of being the sacrificial lamb is that God turned His back on Jesus while He was being crucified. This is all a separate theological issue, though.

swaldron583
Dec 4th 2015, 12:48 AM
The Bible is astonishing. I'm approaching sixty years old, read it my entire life and I'm still surprised to find something new in a Scripture I had read many times before. It truly is the LIVING word of God. Its message grows deeper as a reader's spirit grows. Your eyes and understanding are suddenly opened to things you could never see or imagine before. No surprise either, that you should find prophecy in an unexpected piece of text. Nearly two thirds of the Bible is dedicated somehow to the subject of prophecy. Sometimes the reference is straightforward and direct. It says explicitly, "This is a prophecy of God". In other instances, the reference can be very subtle. Such as a passage explaining the meaning of a single "word" used in a prophecy found elsewhere. The Book of Psalms and Proverbs for instance contain definitions for words used throughout the Books of Daniel and the Revelation. Continue to read and grow in your spirit and understanding of God's Word.

bunnymuldare
Dec 4th 2015, 02:59 AM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.

The time of the gentiles trampling Jerusalem under foot didn't end until 1967, 6 day war.

The Jews were being threatened by the sword even in 1492 when Columbus got them onto boats and sailed the ocean blue.

But now they have returned after being sent throughout the world as witnesses to God's faithfulness. Who would have thunk it previous to WW II?

RenewedFaith
Dec 4th 2015, 04:03 AM
The time of the gentiles trampling Jerusalem under foot didn't end until 1967, 6 day war.

The Jews were being threatened by the sword even in 1492 when Columbus got them onto boats and sailed the ocean blue.

But now they have returned after being sent throughout the world as witnesses to God's faithfulness. Who would have thunk it previous to WW II?


What do you mean about the Columbus part?

Aijalon
Dec 4th 2015, 04:19 AM
That just does not make sense in light of who we are talking about. Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God. His Godness did not diminish one iota. To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future, and DID.

Everything except that last two words are substantiated. Nothing in the account demonstrates his words focused at all beyond the people standing directly in front of him. The only thing that can be said FOR CERTAIN, is that he spoke to the women who inspired him to speak to them.

It seems that the circumstances don't have much weight to you, as though perhaps you are the one who decides how much significance the immediate circumstances had. If you want to show that other cirucmustances, far and beyond those in the scene, were in mind, on what evidence are you basing that?

"because he's god" is used as a pretense in many arguments to excuse the need for appropriate reasoning or evidence.... as though you decide what God was thinking when he was speaking.

bunnymuldare
Dec 4th 2015, 04:13 PM
What do you mean about the Columbus part?

"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Many interpret this passage and stop at 70 AD. But the diaspora of the Jews and their eventual return happened over a very long period of time. Prt of that journey was when the Jews had been living in Spain and had become a burden to Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand so much so that they said that the Jews must leave the country because of all the problems the Muslims are causing. So Columbus asked permission to take them on ships across the Atlantic to escape the persecution. That was when Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492.

There has been a lot of time between the abomination being set up on the temple mount in 688 AD leaving it desolate until 1967 when the Jews regained possession of Jerusalem in the 6 day war.
When Jeff said it was fulfilled in 70 AD, that was only the beginning. The persecution continued until Israel returned from being chased throughout the world and finally returned after Ezekiel's dry bones prophecy, 1948, when Israel became a nation in a day.

In the same way, all of the prophecies of Daniel, Matthew, Revelation; they cover a long space of time. It is just a matter of knowing where to plug them in since most have already occurred in history. We are the generation who will have seen all these things. The glass is getting less dark. By now we will have seen the two witnesses lying in the streets for half of Daniel's prophecy, which John calls 3 and 1/2 Days. The Jewish and the Christian witnesses have lain in the streets of Jerusalem without burials, being prevented from entering into the city, for many centuries -- until now. We have seen it even though it was in the past.

Arch Stanton
Dec 5th 2015, 02:33 PM
I think it's very appropriate that according to Luke's account, Jesus spoke this dire word of prophecy just before He was nailed to the cross. If one looks at verse 27, notice it says a "...great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him." So there is an emphasis placed on the grieving women instead of simply mentioning a huge crowd following.
Then Jesus delivers a prophetic warning to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" and tells them to "...weep for yourselves, and for your children", which I believe is simply a direct reference to Israel. Jesus is addressing unbelieving "Jews"! In a sense, He's weeping because Israel did not accept Him as the Messiah and He's also weeping for future Israel because "she" has not believed He is the Messiah and therefore He gives a warning that in that future time (referencing Matthew's and Hosea's prophecies) Israel will endure great tribulation.
So you see, Luke's seemingly unlikely timing of a prophetic warning in this passage can be understood as the Lord God's grieving heart over His beautiful, beloved, Israel.

Arch Stanton
Dec 5th 2015, 02:57 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by SpokenFor http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1781979#post1781979)
That just does not make sense in light of who we are talking about. Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God. His Godness did not diminish one iota. To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future, and DID.
Everything except that last two words are substantiated. Nothing in the account demonstrates his words focused at all beyond the people standing directly in front of him. The only thing that can be said FOR CERTAIN, is that he spoke to the women who inspired him to speak to them.

A reply to Aijalon's reply to SpokenFor's post. I didn't reply with quote...

It seems that the circumstances don't have much weight to you, as though perhaps you are the one who decides how much significance the immediate circumstances had. If you want to show that other cirucmustances, far and beyond those in the scene, were in mind, on what evidence are you basing that?

"because he's god" is used as a pretense in many arguments to excuse the need for appropriate reasoning or evidence.... as though you decide what God was thinking when he was speaking.

My response...

Well let's see. If what you posted is the case then why would Jesus feel the need to directly quote Hosea and Matthew concerning a future event? And this future event deals with Israel's sins of unbelief. Now, one could translate this account as the destruction of the temple and the fall of Jerusalem which would be to come from His reference to Jeremiah's lamentations in verse 31, and/or Israel's tribulation period referencing Matthew's account. I believe both apply.

keras
Dec 7th 2015, 08:46 PM
The “Little Apocalypse” of Jesus:

Luke 23:27-31 A great number of people followed Jesus on His way to execution, among them many women who mourned and lamented over Him. Jesus turned to them and said: Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, weep for yourselves and your children. For the days are coming when people will say: Happy are those who don’t have children to worry about. Because then all will call to the mountains “fall on us” and to the hills “hide us”.
For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry? Reference: REB, NIV.

‘weep for yourselves’, For those in Jerusalem at that time, this warned them about the coming conquest and destruction by the Romans. But it is also a dual prophecy, as then the Christians were told to ‘take to the hills’ and they escaped to Pella, in the Northern Jordan valley. Luke 20:24

‘For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry?’ A Jewish proverb. An English equivalent: ‘You ain’t seen nuthin yet!’ Green wood doesn’t burn well, dry wood does, so Jesus is saying: you can expect a lot worse carnage and violence to come in a later event.

‘fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. As Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry, what follows in verse 2b is the Day when He will destroy His enemies, those who attack Israel and all the ungodly peoples. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalm 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 5:25, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 20:46-47, Joel 1:15, Psalm 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27

JohnDBaptiste
Dec 9th 2015, 04:47 AM
There is a danger in molding scripture into support for personal beliefs or doctrines.

Preterists and Dispensationalists alike do this. As do Calvinists and Arminians. And OSAS and NOSAS.

If Jesus was speaking directly to the people in company about 70 CE this does not negate a future application of the prophecy.

The same is true about many prophecies (like Exodus 17 if you diagram the set up of Moses Aaron and Hur you will see the scene at Calvary). Or you can say that was just Exodus 17. The same is true about elements of Genesis 22 and so on.

I agree with the OP that what they found in Luke is an interesting prophecy about the (yet) future.

hunger and thirst
Dec 22nd 2015, 02:34 PM
He foresaw what would happen to them in AD 70.


The word says Jerusalem will ONLY be trampled under foot by the Gentiles for 3 1/2 years(during tribulation period), thus CANNOT be in 70 ad, IMO.

hunger and thirst
Dec 22nd 2015, 02:52 PM
At the risk of hijacking my own thread, actually I think Jesus may HAVE been near "kryptonite" at the moment. God had forsaken Him. Part of being the sacrificial lamb is that God turned His back on Jesus while He was being crucified. This is all a separate theological issue, though.

God said "I will NEVER forsake you", Jesus was quoting Psalms 22, the word does NOT say God turned His back on Jesus, that is bad teaching. The word says "God cannot look on sin", so theologians stretch that to say God "turned His back" on Jesus, not an accurate interpretation at all.

Jesus quoted Psalms 22, because that chapter prophesied the crucifixion, NOTHING to do with God turning His back on Jesus, nor FORSAKING Jesus, period.

hunger and thirst
Dec 22nd 2015, 03:25 PM
The “Little Apocalypse” of Jesus:

Luke 23:27-31 A great number of people followed Jesus on His way to execution, among them many women who mourned and lamented over Him. Jesus turned to them and said: Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, weep for yourselves and your children. For the days are coming when people will say: Happy are those who don’t have children to worry about. Because then all will call to the mountains “fall on us” and to the hills “hide us”.
For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry? Reference: REB, NIV.

‘weep for yourselves’, For those in Jerusalem at that time, this warned them about the coming conquest and destruction by the Romans. But it is also a dual prophecy, as then the Christians were told to ‘take to the hills’ and they escaped to Pella, in the Northern Jordan valley. Luke 20:24

‘For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry?’ A Jewish proverb. An English equivalent: ‘You ain’t seen nuthin yet!’ Green wood doesn’t burn well, dry wood does, so Jesus is saying: you can expect a lot worse carnage and violence to come in a later event.

‘fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. As Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry, what follows in verse 2b is the Day when He will destroy His enemies, those who attack Israel and all the ungodly peoples. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalm 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 5:25, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 20:46-47, Joel 1:15, Psalm 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1,

Hebrews 10:27

WHY would you mix all those scripture events together, rather than just using the Revelation reference, since Jesus put all His prophecy in one statement, IMO???

Jesus quoted Revelation, not the other references you added to His warning...

hunger and thirst
Dec 22nd 2015, 03:32 PM
There is a danger in molding scripture into support for personal beliefs or doctrines.

Preterists and Dispensationalists alike do this. As do Calvinists and Arminians. And OSAS and NOSAS.

If Jesus was speaking directly to the people in company about 70 CE this does not negate a future application of the prophecy.

The same is true about many prophecies (like Exodus 17 if you diagram the set up of Moses Aaron and Hur you will see the scene at Calvary). Or you can say that was just Exodus 17. The same is true about elements of Genesis 22 and so on.

I agree with the OP that what they found in Luke is an interesting prophecy about the (yet) future.

Agree totally!!!!

Jumpstart
Dec 22nd 2015, 06:06 PM
The word says Jerusalem will ONLY be trampled under foot by the Gentiles for 3 1/2 years(during tribulation period), thus CANNOT be in 70 ad, IMO.

Luke 21 doesn't mention a 3 1/2 year time period.

hunger and thirst
Dec 22nd 2015, 07:11 PM
Luke 21 is the match to Matthew 24 and Mark 13; in essence, the end time prophecies.

This prophecy is covered in Revelation 11:1&2--says measure the Temple, stating there WILL be a end time Temple in Jerusalem. Verse 2 states the outer court is given to the GENTILES, and the HOLY CITY shall they trod down for forty and two months(3 1/2 years).

Putting Luke 21 and Revelation 11 together is coorelating, because of end time prophecies matching in both, so, Luke 21 gives the trodden down, and Revelation 11 gives the period and the length of time for the trodding down.

Scripture MUST confirm scripture, especially end time prophecies, repeated for confirmation many times in the word of God.

MaryFreeman
Dec 23rd 2015, 12:37 AM
That just does not make sense in light of who we are talking about. Jesus was not Superman, whose powers get weaker near kryptonite... Jesus was and is FULLY God. While his body was severely beaten, bloody, bruised and broken..so much that he could not carry his own cross.. he was still God. His Godness did not diminish one iota. To say he could *only* see 40 years into the future at that moment diminishes who He is. He was able to see 2000 years into the future, and DID.

That isn't what is being said. What is being said is that He spoke ONLY of what He saw 40 years into the future. Remember, Jesus shed His glory, and all of the attributes that made Him God. When He came here, He was found to be "in the form of a man". Which means though He was God, He walked this earth FULLY HUMAN. He had to. Otherwise, His sacrifice would have meant nothing. The worlds sin and shame called for HUMAN BLOOD to eradicate it and wash us clean. If He had not come as a MAN, it would not have been any different than if He never came at all.

ForHisglory
Dec 25th 2015, 12:27 AM
Luke 21 is the match to Matthew 24 and Mark 13; in essence, the end time prophecies.

This prophecy is covered in Revelation 11:1&2--says measure the Temple, stating there WILL be a end time Temple in Jerusalem. Verse 2 states the outer court is given to the GENTILES, and the HOLY CITY shall they trod down for forty and two months(3 1/2 years).

Putting Luke 21 and Revelation 11 together is coorelating, because of end time prophecies matching in both, so, Luke 21 gives the trodden down, and Revelation 11 gives the period and the length of time for the trodding down.

Scripture MUST confirm scripture, especially end time prophecies, repeated for confirmation many times in the word of God.
Nope Luke 21 is not saying identical things to Matt 24. Luke 21 focuses on answering those questions asked in Luke 21, and Matt 24 some other questions. However it was all spoken about on the Mount of Olives. Luke 21 has the destruction of the Temple and the trampling by the Gentiles which occurred in 70 AD.

keras
Dec 25th 2015, 04:07 AM
WHY would you mix all those scripture events together, rather than just using the Revelation reference, since Jesus put all His prophecy in one statement, IMO???

Jesus quoted Revelation, not the other references you added to His warning...
Yes Jesus was referring to the Sixth Seal event, the one He told John to write about in His Revelation. A partial fulfillment in 70AD can be inferred from it.
All my other references apply to the same event: the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath and there are many other prophesies that detail this sudden and world changing disaster.

dan
Jan 17th 2016, 12:29 AM
The time of the gentiles trampling Jerusalem under foot didn't end until 1967, 6 day war.

Really?

I have it at 2370:

DAN 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
DAN 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.