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gophgetter
Sep 9th 2008, 04:54 PM
Greetings,

The following question seems almost blasphemous to some people I'm sure but in light of the following scriptures, we should at least consider that it just might be possible. Does God ever change His mind or His plans? Let's look at what the Bible says and you be the judge.

Our First Example
God clearly tells us through the prophet Isaiah that God did not create the earth in vain but He created it to be inhabited (Is. 45:18). Yet, we see in Gen. 6 that He was so grieved with His creation that He was ready to destroy it all had it not been for Noah finding grace in His sight.

Gen. 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Second Example
God prophesied though Jacob's blessings of his sons that the Messiah would come through the lineage of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:9-12). Yet, when the children of Israel sinned greatly and provoked the Most High by worshipping a golden calf, He was ready to totally destroy the tribe of Judah had Moses not pleaded with Him and appeased His wrath.

Ex. 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. (Moses was of the tribe of Levi)

32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Third Example

Look what God says concerning the priesthood in the days of Eli when his sons had corrupted their office.

1 Sam. 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Fourth Example

Because Ahab had allowed Jezebel to seduce him to kill Naboth and take his vineyard, the LORD prophesied through Elijah that Ahab and his seed after him would be killed. But when Ahab heard these words, he humbled himself and because of that, look what God says concerning Ahab.

1 Kings 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.

21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

Last Example

God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah that any nation that He chooses to build up or to destroy, they can change their destiny by their choice to do evil or to do good.

Jer. 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

These examples from the scriptures are clear in that they show that God can and will deal with us in accordance to our responses to Him.
Peace

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 04:58 PM
I think you left out the most telling example: Jonah. :) Based on Jonah 3 alone, I think the answer from Scripture is a definitive "Yes".

Instrument
Sep 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
It is clear in Scripture that God can change plans, but does not change his mind with regard to sin.

Blessings.

legoman
Sep 9th 2008, 05:38 PM
Based on these verses, it has to be a scriputral NO.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

These verses are pretty clear.

How do we reconcile these verses with the other verses you posted above? Is there a contradiction here? No, there is no contraction. All scripture is true and never contradicts itself.

In order to reconcile verses like Exodus 32 and Jonah 3, we must realize that God is setting things up and playing a part for the purposes of his plan. For example in Exodus 32, God is effectively setting Moses up to do exactly as God intended. He did not ever intend to destroy Israel, he just wanted Moses to come to the aid of Israel. It was the Lord's purpose.

Likewise in Jonah 3: God wanted the people to turn from their evil ways. He didn't ever really plan on destroying them, as he has perfect foreknowledge and knew they would infact turn from evil.

Cheers,
Legoman

KingFisher
Sep 10th 2008, 12:47 PM
Good scriptures Legoman!

I'd like to add this one to the idea that God does not change His mind.

1 Samuel 15:29"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind;
for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

gophgetter looking at the passages you posted from a human "finite"
perspective I can understand what your expressing.

From our "finite" perspective, why do we usually change our mind?
a. It could be because we were wrong.
b. It could be because we were unsure and didn't have all the info.
c. It could be because were just a fickle sort.
d…etc.

Using your second example, the Exodus passage...

So…why did God want to destroy Israel?

Didn't they just see some pretty incredible things?
I mean they saw the plagues in Egypt, the Red Sea parted,
saw water come from a rock…etc. and yet here they are
making an idol unto themselves.

So we come to this…
a. Was God wrong to be angry with Israel?
b. Did Moses tell God something He didn't already know?
c. Is God fickle?

God is both perfect in mercy and justice right?
It would have been perfect justice to destroy Israel and start over.

but…

It would have been perfect mercy to show His love and to spare them
this wrath.

Think about it like this...

I, just like Israel sinned against God.
I, like Israel was to receive the penalty of God's wrath.
I, like Israel was interceded for.
I, like Israel received mercy instead of destruction.

God choose to spare me…to show me mercy.

In each of the examples you gave we see the repentance of man and
God's Grace as a common theme.

So with the scriptures you gave and the scriptures Legoman gave, I
come to the conclusion that there are no contradictions...just a beautiful
foreshadowing of repentance and grace.

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

keck553
Sep 10th 2008, 12:51 PM
Without trust, we question and attempt to reason out God's Way.

The inability to understand the Most High doesn't allow us to change His Way's to conform to our ways.

That's why we have something called faith.

edaps7
Sep 10th 2008, 01:14 PM
I think a more correct term may be..."Does God respond to us" it may appear that God is "changing his mind" but he is really just responding to our actions. I would say that YES God adjusts his plans based on what we do. Otherwise prayer is pointless.

VerticalReality
Sep 10th 2008, 01:50 PM
I think a more correct term may be..."Does God respond to us" it may appear that God is "changing his mind" but he is really just responding to our actions. I would say that YES God adjusts his plans based on what we do. Otherwise prayer is pointless.

Wouldn't such a concept suggest that God doesn't know what we're going to do?

KingFisher
Sep 10th 2008, 01:54 PM
I think a more correct term may be..."Does God respond to us" it may appear that God is "changing his mind" but he is really just responding to our actions. I would say that YES God adjusts his plans based on what we do. Otherwise prayer is pointless.

Hi edaps7,

It's nice to meet you.

I have a question...
With your statements of God adjusting His plans according to our prayers...

Well, in prayer aren't we to pray according to God's will?
You know "Thy will be done".

Thanks,
KingFisher

Rufus_1611
Sep 10th 2008, 03:08 PM
"For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants." - Psalm 135:4


"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." - Jeremiah 18:8

"If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. - Jeremiah 18:10


"If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." - Jeremiah 26:3

KingFisher
Sep 10th 2008, 03:29 PM
"For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants." - Psalm 135:4
"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." - Jeremiah 18:8

"If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. - Jeremiah 18:10
"If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." - Jeremiah 26:3

Hi Rufus,

Could you explain these scriptures to me then?

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath
he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for
he is not a man, that he should repent.

Just for the record I do not believe there is a contradiction
Post #5 explains my understanding.

I'm just curious to yours...

Thanks,
KingFisher

legoman
Sep 10th 2008, 03:51 PM
"For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants." - Psalm 135:4
"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." - Jeremiah 18:8

"If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. - Jeremiah 18:10
"If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." - Jeremiah 26:3

All of these verse are just ascribing a human characteristic to God, for the purposes of explaining and understanding what's happening in human terms. They don't mean that God is changing his mind, or is sorry for what he might have done. God knows full well what he is doing and will do.

Kingfisher raised a good point in his post. Does God make mistakes? Is God not perfect? Did he make an error when he created us and then we started sinning? Is God sorry he made us cause we turned out so sinful? Is the creation not functioning as God intended it? Is the creation malfunctioning?

The answer to all these questions is No. Everything is happening as God planned.

Legoman

John146
Sep 10th 2008, 09:16 PM
I think you left out the most telling example: Jonah. :) Based on Jonah 3 alone, I think the answer from Scripture is a definitive "Yes".I wouldn't say it is God changing His mind as much as the fact that He sometimes gave people conditions to meet and He had a plan on what to do depending on whether people met those conditions or not. Jonah 3 is an example of this. As is this passage:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Notice here that Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem under Himself with Him as their King but they refused. He had a plan on what He would do if they accepted Him and He also had a plan on what He would do if they did not. Because they did not accept Him, He left their house unto them desolate.

John146
Sep 10th 2008, 09:27 PM
All of these verse are just ascribing a human characteristic to God, for the purposes of explaining and understanding what's happening in human terms. They don't mean that God is changing his mind, or is sorry for what he might have done. God knows full well what he is doing and will do.

Kingfisher raised a good point in his post. Does God make mistakes? Is God not perfect? Did he make an error when he created us and then we started sinning? Is God sorry he made us cause we turned out so sinful? Is the creation not functioning as God intended it? Is the creation malfunctioning?

The answer to all these questions is No. Everything is happening as God planned.

LegomanGod planned for all but 8 people to be saved in Noah's day then? If so, why did He grieve over having made mankind? And why would He have made it so that only 8 people would be saved? If all went according to His plan then He would have had no reason to grieve. It isn't that He made a mistake. He was saddened by the poor decision to rebel against Him that most of mankind made at that time.

faroutinmt
Sep 10th 2008, 11:18 PM
God knows the end from the beginning. This is clearly taught in the bible. However, just because God knows what will happen does not mean that He doesn't have joy, grief, sorrow, anger, etc. when those events do occur. I believe that He is never taken by surprise by anything, nor does He have to change His mind due to new knowledge or understanding, since He knows and understands all things. I believe that when God repents of something -even though He already knew it would happen- He communicates His desires in expressions we can relate to on a finite, human level.

legoman
Sep 11th 2008, 12:39 AM
God knows the end from the beginning. This is clearly taught in the bible. However, just because God knows what will happen does not mean that He doesn't have joy, grief, sorrow, anger, etc. when those events do occur. I believe that He is never taken by surprise by anything, nor does He have to change His mind due to new knowledge or understanding, since He knows and understands all things. I believe that when God repents of something -even though He already knew it would happen- He communicates His desires in expressions we can relate to on a finite, human level.

Exactly. Very well put.

Cheers,
Legoman

edaps7
Sep 11th 2008, 01:35 AM
Wouldn't such a concept suggest that God doesn't know what we're going to do?

The way i see it the world is one of three ways...

1. God created us and knows everything we will do, and everything that will happen do thus making our prayers irrelevant.

2. God created the world with specific parameters that will inevitably fall within the plan and end God desires. Therefore we could never do anything to "derail" the plan because we cannot go outside of said parameters. If this is the case it leaves God open to interact with us (i am not saying God cannot do 2 things at once I am simply trying to explain it in terms we can understand) any we can ask for things through prayer and God can respond to us or not.

3. God made the world in which he has to constantly be "fixing" things that we screw up, that way his plan will be realized. This scenario again allows God to respond to us.

I personally do not see the big deal if God doesnt "know" things. One can still be all knowing and not posses knowledge of everything. Let me give you an example...

If i take the time to build a chair i "know" everything about the chair. I know how many screws it took to put it together i know how long the legs are, i know what the name of the finish is etc. etc. etc. I am also all powerful when it comes to the chair if anything ever happens to it i can fix it therfore i can ensure the chair will stay the way i created it as it gets older. Do i really need to know exactly when i will have to refinish it, or tighten the screws...no, it doesnt matter becasue i know how to fix it so these things become trivial and irrelevant.

edaps7
Sep 11th 2008, 01:39 AM
Well, in prayer aren't we to pray according to God's will?
You know "Thy will be done".

So how are we supposed to know God's will?, and if we know God's will then again prayer become irrelevant becasue we would already know

divaD
Sep 11th 2008, 01:52 AM
Does God make mistakes? Is God not perfect? Did he make an error when he
created us and then we started sinning? Is God sorry he made us cause we turned out so sinful? Is the creation not
functioning as God intended it? Is the creation malfunctioning?

The answer to all these questions is No. Everything is happening as God planned.


Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


I for one believe what this verse states. I tearfully believe it grieved God in his heart, just as it states. Do you know why I believe it grieved God at His heart? Because I know for a fact God has a heart.

Anyone can find verses all day long to supposedly support their position on this or that. Many a false doctrines were started in this same manner.

A good place to start would be to submit the intended contexts of the many lone verses in this thread, that supposedly prove one's position. This would be the correct way to go about things.

But I don't really look for anyone to do it. There is just too much work involved in supplying context with lone verses. Plus one might discover that they be in error.

I pretty much see what's going on here tho. Your position takes satan off the hook, and put's the entire blame on God. Not once have I seen any of you giving satan credit for all the evil in the world. According to your view, it's all God's doings, because He planned it that way.

gophgetter
Sep 11th 2008, 03:13 AM
Hi Rufus,

Could you explain these scriptures to me then?

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath
he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for
he is not a man, that he should repent.

Just for the record I do not believe there is a contradiction
Post #5 explains my understanding.

I'm just curious to yours...

Thanks,
KingFisher

Greetings KingFisher,

Let's take a closer look at the verses that you posted and see if we can't reconcile them with the other verses that have been posted. I will add another verse later on in this post that seems to be contradictory.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The context of this verse is the story of Balak trying to bribe Balaam to rise up and curse Israel as a nation. The verse above that is quoted is Balaam's response to Balak. Here is the rest of his response.

Numbers 23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!

23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

23:25 And Balak said unto Balaam, Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all.

23:26 But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee, saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?

When we take this verse in context, we see that what Balaam was clearly saying is in respect to a command that God had given him, he could not go against it.

By the same token, when God commanded Elijah to pronounce judgement upon Ahab, Elijah had to prophesy against Ahab as God commanded. But when God changed His plan because Ahab humbled himself, then Elijah could go back and change his prophecy because God had changed it. See example 4, post #1.

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

The setting of this scripture is when Samuel had commanded Saul to slay all of the Amalekites and leave nothing. Saul had it in his mind to save the best of the sheep and oxen for sacrifices. This is referred to in the scriptures as a presumptous sin. When Samuel made the above statement, he was referring to Saul's disobedience to a direct command to him as a leader of the people of Israel and the judgement that followed. Notice that this judgement was not because God planned it that way, but because Saul had rejected God's commandment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

15:25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

God does not change in judgement. God does change His plans according to human responses at times, but He does not change in His commandments. God could have had mercy on Adam, but because Adam disobeyed a direct commandment, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree...", the judgement had already been set and Adam was judged according to the commandment and the judgement that had been given. Which brings us to another verse that has not been mentioned yet, so I will mention it.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

This verse in Malachi deals with same principle that was just discussed in the previous verse. It has to do with the promise that was made to Israel that if they would return unto Him, He would return unto them. Notice that this promise was conditional upon Israel's decision to return unto Him. Look at the next verse.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

As has been already stated, God does not change in judgement to those who reject His commandments, but He will change His plans and even His judgements according to men's repentance and reverance for Him.

God Bless,
Goph

legoman
Sep 11th 2008, 04:47 AM
You know what legoman, I'm convinced that you, and others like you, know nothing of the heart of God. As a matter of fact, you all take God's heart completely out of Scriptures. The God you are reading about has no heart according to how some of you reason things.


divaD, that's quite the accusation you are making. I'm not sure what to make of it.



Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I for one believe what this verse states. I tearfully believe it grieved God in his heart, just as it states. Do you know why I believe it grieved God at His heart? Because I know for a fact God has a heart. Do you?
Sorry if I made it appear that God is heartless, that is not what I meant to show. I also believe that God grieved in this verse. However, I don't believe that the LORD needs to "repent". I think God is following a careful Loving Plan. God is in full control.



Your view pretty much makes God's heart not really much at all.

What is your point in all of this?
The point is that people are not giving credit to God where credit is due. To suggest that God changes his mind, or makes mistakes, or wishes he hadn't created us is blasphemy. Yet a lot of people don't seem to have a problem suggesting those things.




Instead of taking all these verses out of context in order to support your position, why don't you do us all a favor when using a lone verse or two? Please also submit the correct context in order that the intended message is intepreted correctly. If you or anyone else is going to submit lone verses in order to support a position, then it is only right that you also tell us what these verses mean in context.

Anyone can find verses all day long to supposedly support their position on this or that. Many a false doctrines were started in this same manner.

A good place to start would be to submit the intended contexts of the many lone verses in this thread, that supposedly prove one's position. This would be the correct way to go about things.
But I don't really look for anyone to do it. There is just too much work involved in supplying context with lone verses. Plus one might discover that they be in error.
Well you could have looked at the context yourself to see if there was an error. I see gophgetter has gone through the surrounding context on some of the verses - I will try to address that tomorrow as it is a bit too late here now.





I pretty much see what's going on here tho. Your position takes satan off the hook, and put's the entire blame on God. Not once have I seen any of you giving satan credit for all the evil in the world. According to your view, it's all God's doings, because He planned it that way. Sadly enough, many of you actually have no clue, even tho you think you have it all figured out.Whoa whoa whoa. Who said anything about blaming God? I am not blaming God for anything. Is that your position? God is blameless. God does not make mistakes.

Yes Satan is running around causing havoc and spreading evil, but ultimately he is under the control of God. I have said in the past that God could have wiped Satan out in instant if he wanted too, but for some reason he hasn't yet. God uses Satan's evil to accomplish good, and accomplish his plan.

This is a tough (touchy) subject for a lot of people it seems. People don't want to admit that God "allows" evil, or even creates it, even though scripture plainly says so.

What I am suggesting is God is in full control. God does not change his mind. He knows what he is doing, he's not adjusting his plan on the fly. And he is letting Satan do what Satan does best. And it is all for God's purposes.

Legoman

KingFisher
Sep 11th 2008, 12:57 PM
gophgetter & edaps7,

I thank you both for your thoughtful reply's.
I very much appreciate the discussion.

I apologize that I wont be able to give you
a timely answer. You deserve one and I will
reply at the first chance I get.

I live on the coast of Texas and have to focus
thoughts, energy and prayers on getting my
family to safety. Hurricane Ike is bearing down
on us. We're probably going to stay with family
in Dallas...I know, still in the path of the storm...uuuhhhgggg?

I've got alot to do so I need to go...

Any prayers are appreciated. :pray:

With love, :hug:
KingFisher

gophgetter
Sep 11th 2008, 05:39 PM
Hey KingFisher,

God bess you brother and we will certainly be praying for you that everything will be alright. Thank God we have a saviour that is with us in the storm.

Peace,
Goph

RoadWarrior
Sep 11th 2008, 06:27 PM
..

I live on the coast of Texas and have to focus
thoughts, energy and prayers on getting my
family to safety. Hurricane Ike is bearing down
on us. We're probably going to stay with family
in Dallas...I know, still in the path of the storm...uuuhhhgggg?

I've got alot to do so I need to go...

Any prayers are appreciated. :pray:

With love, :hug:
KingFisher

Praying for your safety and for God's touch to be evident in the lives of all affected by this storm. :pray:

John146
Sep 11th 2008, 08:31 PM
God knows the end from the beginning. This is clearly taught in the bible. However, just because God knows what will happen does not mean that He doesn't have joy, grief, sorrow, anger, etc. when those events do occur. I believe that He is never taken by surprise by anything, nor does He have to change His mind due to new knowledge or understanding, since He knows and understands all things. I believe that when God repents of something -even though He already knew it would happen- He communicates His desires in expressions we can relate to on a finite, human level.This doesn't answer the question as to why God would grieve over something that He supposedly planned to have happen before time began (as opposed to it being a response to man's rebellion), such as having all but 8 people in the world being killed by the flood.

IPet2_9
Sep 11th 2008, 09:12 PM
He communicates His desires in expressions we can relate to on a finite, human level.

This part that I quoted is what I think. As far as we, mankind, are concerned, God does change His mind. When man rebels against God, God's patience runs out, and when it runs thin he warns you and eventually He destroys you. But if you repent, He changes His mind, and reverses the destruction you were destined for (a. la. Jonah 3). All this on a finite, human-understanding level.

And that's good enough for me.


P.S. I am the same way about predestination. Okay, so we are predestined...so???

keck553
Sep 11th 2008, 09:53 PM
This part that I quoted is what I think. As far as we, mankind, are concerned, God does change His mind. When man rebels against God, God's patience runs out, and when it runs thin he warns you and eventually He destroys you. But if you repent, He changes His mind, and reverses the destruction you were destined for (a. la. Jonah 3). All this on a finite, human-understanding level.

And that's good enough for me.


P.S. I am the same way about predestination. Okay, so we are predestined...so???

Interesting view. But I think you're right, from our perspective, appearances can be a mirage.

God's purpose is to bring us back into relationship with Him. Any way He can do that, I'm all for it, even if it appears He's changed His mind.

But I think in reality He's really changing mine. So the answer I have is:

Does God Change His Mind?
Why? Is something wrong with the one He has?

legoman
Sep 12th 2008, 01:27 AM
When man rebels against God, God's patience runs out, and when it runs thin he warns you and eventually He destroys you.

I don't think God's patience ever runs out. God is Love, and Love is patient. Impatience is a human quality.

Cheers,
Legoman

Rufus_1611
Sep 13th 2008, 02:49 PM
Hi Rufus,

Could you explain these scriptures to me then?

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath
he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for
he is not a man, that he should repent. In one sense God does not repent, not as man repents anyway. God does not set prophesy and change prophesy, and God does not sin so He can't repent of sin, further God knows all so He can't exactly repent of belief.

In the context of Numbers 23:19 or 1 Samuel 15:29 of course, what is stated is true. However, God does repent of doing evil based on certain conditions. He will tell man that He is going to kill him, unless man repents. So the evil that God sets out to do He will repent of if there is man's repentance of evil. This plays out in the book of Jonah...


"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?" - Jonah 3:9

So, God can tell someone or someones that He's going to judge them and they can fall down on their face asking for mercy and, because God is merciful, He may repent of the judgment He had planned for them.


Just for the record I do not believe there is a contradiction
Post #5 explains my understanding. Amen.


I'm just curious to yours...

Thanks,
KingFisherGrace and peace to ya.

Rufus_1611
Sep 13th 2008, 02:53 PM
All of these verse are just ascribing a human characteristic to God, for the purposes of explaining and understanding what's happening in human terms. They don't mean that God is changing his mind, or is sorry for what he might have done. God knows full well what he is doing and will do.

Kingfisher raised a good point in his post. Does God make mistakes? Is God not perfect? Did he make an error when he created us and then we started sinning? Is God sorry he made us cause we turned out so sinful? Is the creation not functioning as God intended it? Is the creation malfunctioning?

The answer to all these questions is No. Everything is happening as God planned.

Legoman

God certainly does not make errors, angels and man are responsible for the errors of the world. However, at least on one occasion (and likely more) it repented the Lord that He made man on the earth.


"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." - Genesis 6:6-8

IPet2_9
Sep 13th 2008, 03:11 PM
I don't think God's patience ever runs out. God is Love, and Love is patient. Impatience is a human quality.I point to Israel's walk. God was ridiculously patient with them, right from rescuing them from Egypt even as they were grumbling, to letting them carry on with their Baal worship for a few hundred years. He made the Davidic Covenant, but eventually, God just said "enough"; and Israel was gone. The whole preservation of the remnant, fulfilling the Davidic Covenant in Jesus, etc. was a "Plan B", from our human perspective.

Then they turned around and did it AGAIN, in post-exilic Israel. The Pharisees and the moneychangers did their thing, and then they even crucified Jesus himself. God let them carry on for another 30 years even after that before destroying and scattering them.

God is patient with us. He lets a man live for 75 years, ignoring Him and going on in sin. This is the Guy who controls your every heartbeat. But eventually, it will stop. God is indeed very patient with us, but it DOES run out in the end.

legoman
Sep 13th 2008, 08:41 PM
God certainly does not make errors, angels and man are responsible for the errors of the world. However, at least on one occasion (and likely more) it repented the Lord that He made man on the earth.
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." - Genesis 6:6-8

Hi Rufus,

Just to get back to the original question, I don't think this verse and the other verses like it imply that God changes, or that God changed his plan. I may have mis-spoke previously when I said "God was not sorry". God can indeed be sorry or sad or grieving as described in the verse above.

God is sorry, or "repents" in the way a parent is sorry when the parent knows he must discipline a child. The discipline must happen, and it may be temporarily unpleasant, but it is for the best in the long run. And the discipline is not wrong, it is necessary.

That's how I see God's plan. There are times of joy and times of sadness. Times of goodness and times of evil. All are necessary to achieve God's unchanging plan.

Cheers,
Legoman

legoman
Sep 15th 2008, 03:00 AM
Greetings KingFisher,

Let's take a closer look at the verses that you posted and see if we can't reconcile them with the other verses that have been posted. I will add another verse later on in this post that seems to be contradictory.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The context of this verse is the story of Balak trying to bribe Balaam to rise up and curse Israel as a nation. The verse above that is quoted is Balaam's response to Balak. Here is the rest of his response.

Numbers 23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!

23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

23:25 And Balak said unto Balaam, Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all.

23:26 But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee, saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?

When we take this verse in context, we see that what Balaam was clearly saying is in respect to a command that God had given him, he could not go against it.

By the same token, when God commanded Elijah to pronounce judgement upon Ahab, Elijah had to prophesy against Ahab as God commanded. But when God changed His plan because Ahab humbled himself, then Elijah could go back and change his prophecy because God had changed it. See example 4, post #1.

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

The setting of this scripture is when Samuel had commanded Saul to slay all of the Amalekites and leave nothing. Saul had it in his mind to save the best of the sheep and oxen for sacrifices. This is referred to in the scriptures as a presumptous sin. When Samuel made the above statement, he was referring to Saul's disobedience to a direct command to him as a leader of the people of Israel and the judgement that followed. Notice that this judgement was not because God planned it that way, but because Saul had rejected God's commandment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

15:25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

God does not change in judgement. God does change His plans according to human responses at times, but He does not change in His commandments. God could have had mercy on Adam, but because Adam disobeyed a direct commandment, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree...", the judgement had already been set and Adam was judged according to the commandment and the judgement that had been given. Which brings us to another verse that has not been mentioned yet, so I will mention it.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

This verse in Malachi deals with same principle that was just discussed in the previous verse. It has to do with the promise that was made to Israel that if they would return unto Him, He would return unto them. Notice that this promise was conditional upon Israel's decision to return unto Him. Look at the next verse.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

As has been already stated, God does not change in judgement to those who reject His commandments, but He will change His plans and even His judgements according to men's repentance and reverance for Him.

God Bless,
Goph

Hi Goph,

I don't believe God changes his plans. He declared the beginning from the end. If God really did change his plan, it means his original plan was somehow incorrect. And we know that cannot be true.

In numbers 23:19, yes the context is in the story of Balak and Balaam. But that doesn't change the simple truth in 23:19 - God does not repent. Its not saying God does not repent... when it comes to his commands. Or God does not repent... in this particular situation. Its saying God does not repent period.

Malachi 3:6 is a full statement. It stands on its own. "For I am the LORD, I change not; ..." This is truth. Given this understanding, we can apply it to the rest of the verses.

Is Mal 3:7 then contradiciting this? "Return unto me, and I will return to you". Is this a conditional that will cause God to change his plans, and thus cause Mal 3:6 to be in full contradiction with Mal 3:7? No, and no.

God knows what they will do in this situation. He knows the outcome, so his plan has taken that into account. His plan does not need to change at all, as this was all part of his plan from the beginning.

Cheers,
Legoman

gophgetter
Sep 15th 2008, 05:30 AM
Hey Brother,

I have to say that I am not in complete agreement with you. I see that God will and has changed His plans according to man's response to His commandments and judgements. Else, how would explain the following scripture in Jeremiah 18?

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

This verse seems pretty plain to me. Does the above verse not mean what it says or do we need to "add" some "interpretaion" to it?

Peace,
Goph

Joe King
Sep 15th 2008, 06:28 AM
The Genesis verses are the first ones that come to mind in regards to "God changing his mind".

My interpretation of it is that he knew what was going to happen but when it actually played out it was hard for him to bear.

legoman
Sep 15th 2008, 04:10 PM
Hey Brother,

I have to say that I am not in complete agreement with you. I see that God will and has changed His plans according to man's response to His commandments and judgements. Else, how would explain the following scripture in Jeremiah 18?

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

This verse seems pretty plain to me. Does the above verse not mean what it says or do we need to "add" some "interpretaion" to it?

Peace,
Goph

Hi Goph,

God knows the beginning from the end:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

If a mere man can change God's mind, how can verses such as Isaiah 46:10 be true? If God changes his plan, because of something man did, then we have a problem. God is no longer sovereign. God is no longer all-knowing. His original plan needed to be changed, therefore it was in error. God would be admitting he made a mistake if he were to change his mind. This cannot be.

We need to take God's sovereignity and foreknowledge into account when looking at verses like Jeremiah 18 and Exodus 32.

What is God saying in Jeremiah 18? He is saying, if a nation turns from its evil, I will not do evil to it that I thought of doing. But if a nation does not do good, I will not do the good I said would benefit them.

Here he is giving a choice, and consequences of each choice. But God knows which choice they will take - his plan has already taken that into account.

I like the way keck553 put it. From our perspective, it looks like God changed his plan. But its really us who changed our plans.

Cheers,
Legoman

faroutinmt
Sep 15th 2008, 04:14 PM
Hi Goph,

God knows the beginning from the end:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

If a mere man can change God's mind, how can verses such as Isaiah 46:10 be true? If God changes his plan, because of something man did, then we have a problem. God is no longer sovereign. God is no longer all-knowing. His original plan needed to be changed, therefore it was in error. God would be admitting he made a mistake if he were to change his mind. This cannot be.

We need to take God's sovereignity and foreknowledge into account when looking at verses like Jeremiah 18 and Exodus 32.

What is God saying in Jeremiah 18? He is saying, if a nation turns from its evil, I will not do evil to it that I thought of doing. But if a nation does not do good, I will not do the good I said would benefit them.

Here he is giving a choice, and consequences of each choice. But God knows which choice they will take - his plan has already taken that into account.

I like the way keck553 put it. From our perspective, it looks like God changed his plan. But its really us who changed our plans.

Cheers,
Legoman

Amen. We cannot seek to fit God into our human molds. He is far beyond us and His ways are far above. We often wrongly judge Him and draw conclusions about Him based on our own feeble and limited understanding. May He help us to know Him as the Almighty that He is.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 16th 2008, 08:27 PM
Greetings,

The following question seems almost blasphemous to some people I'm sure but in light of the following scriptures, we should at least consider that it just might be possible. Does God ever change His mind or His plans? Let's look at what the Bible says and you be the judge.

Our First Example
God clearly tells us through the prophet Isaiah that God did not create the earth in vain but He created it to be inhabited (Is. 45:18). Yet, we see in Gen. 6 that He was so grieved with His creation that He was ready to destroy it all had it not been for Noah finding grace in His sight.

Gen. 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Second Example
God prophesied though Jacob's blessings of his sons that the Messiah would come through the lineage of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:9-12). Yet, when the children of Israel sinned greatly and provoked the Most High by worshipping a golden calf, He was ready to totally destroy the tribe of Judah had Moses not pleaded with Him and appeased His wrath.

Ex. 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. (Moses was of the tribe of Levi)

32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Third Example

Look what God says concerning the priesthood in the days of Eli when his sons had corrupted their office.

1 Sam. 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Fourth Example

Because Ahab had allowed Jezebel to seduce him to kill Naboth and take his vineyard, the LORD prophesied through Elijah that Ahab and his seed after him would be killed. But when Ahab heard these words, he humbled himself and because of that, look what God says concerning Ahab.

1 Kings 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.

21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

Last Example

God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah that any nation that He chooses to build up or to destroy, they can change their destiny by their choice to do evil or to do good.

Jer. 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

These examples from the scriptures are clear in that they show that God can and will deal with us in accordance to our responses to Him.
Peace

I do not believe it is that the Lord changes His mind because scripture does teach that He is the Lord, and changes not, however I believe that it is because His "Words" proceed, [continual flow], and at times we put a period where there should be a comma.

Matthew 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
John 15:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=26&version=50&context=verse)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
Example: If I were giving directions and I said go to Main Street, and then make a U turn... If one put a period after "Main Street", then they would think the next statement is a change when it is not, it is a procession, [continuation], of the original directions.

Be Blessed...:hug:

pastor_john
Sep 18th 2008, 07:13 AM
Greetings,

The following question seems almost blasphemous to some people I'm sure but in light of the following scriptures, we should at least consider that it just might be possible. Does God ever change His mind or His plans? Let's look at what the Bible says and you be the judge.

Our First Example
God clearly tells us through the prophet Isaiah that God did not create the earth in vain but He created it to be inhabited (Is. 45:18). Yet, we see in Gen. 6 that He was so grieved with His creation that He was ready to destroy it all had it not been for Noah finding grace in His sight.

Gen. 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Second Example
God prophesied though Jacob's blessings of his sons that the Messiah would come through the lineage of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:9-12). Yet, when the children of Israel sinned greatly and provoked the Most High by worshipping a golden calf, He was ready to totally destroy the tribe of Judah had Moses not pleaded with Him and appeased His wrath.

Ex. 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. (Moses was of the tribe of Levi)

32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Third Example

Look what God says concerning the priesthood in the days of Eli when his sons had corrupted their office.

1 Sam. 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Fourth Example

Because Ahab had allowed Jezebel to seduce him to kill Naboth and take his vineyard, the LORD prophesied through Elijah that Ahab and his seed after him would be killed. But when Ahab heard these words, he humbled himself and because of that, look what God says concerning Ahab.

1 Kings 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.

21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

Last Example

God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah that any nation that He chooses to build up or to destroy, they can change their destiny by their choice to do evil or to do good.

Jer. 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

These examples from the scriptures are clear in that they show that God can and will deal with us in accordance to our responses to Him.
Peace



Yes.

When Israel turned away from the way YAHVEH had commanded, and made themselves an idol to worship, YAHVEH wanted to destroy them all, and Moses pleaded. And the LORD changed His mind about the disaster He was about to bring upon them (Ex32:11-14). Then what is an idol today? Men’s own understanding or wisdom (Hos13:1-3). Alas, so many have believed Jesus, yet are following their ways on account of their own understanding…

The LORD showed Amos a thing:the LORD was forming locusts to devour the grass of the land. Amos pleaded, “LORD GOD, please forgive. Jacob is so small, and he is not able to stand.” The LORD changed His mind concerning this (Am7:1-3). What are locusts? Those who do not have the word of GOD in their mouths are locusts, destroying the vines of the LORD (Joel1:4-7). Jesus is the true vine (Jn15:1), that is, the word of GOD (Jn15:1-3). The locusts have no king, yet all of them march out in ranks (Pr30:27). Jesus is the King of kings and the LORD of lords (Rev19:11-16). What is the grass? Jesus is the grass (Jn10:7-9). Believers, do we have the word of GOD in our mouths?

We really need to have servants of GOD like Moses and Amos to pray to YAHVEH so that He will change His mind about the disasters He is bringing…
This is an answer before reading this thread. Readers might see our differences and similarities. The mercy of the LORD!

divaD
Sep 18th 2008, 11:55 AM
Yes.
When Israel turned away from the way YAHVEH had commanded, and made themselves an idol to worship, YAHVEH wanted to destroy them all, and Moses pleaded. And the LORD changed His mind about the disaster He was about to bring upon them (Ex32:11-14). Then what is an idol today? Men’s own understanding or wisdom (Hos13:1-3). Alas, so many have believed Jesus, yet are following their ways on account of their own understanding…
The LORD showed Amos a thing?the LORD was forming locusts to devour the grass of the land. Amos pleaded, “LORD GOD, please forgive. Jacob is so small, and he is not able to stand.” The LORD changed His mind concerning this (Am7:1-3). What are locusts? Those who do not have the word of GOD in their mouths are locusts, destroying the vines of the LORD (Joel1:4-7). Jesus is the true vine (Jn15:1), that is, the word of GOD (Jn15:1-3). The locusts have no king, yet all of them march out in ranks (Pr30:27). Jesus is the King of kings and the LORD of lords (Rev19:11-16). What is the grass? Jesus is the grass (Jn10:7-9). Believers, do we have the word of GOD in our mouths?
We really need to have servants of GOD like Moses and Amos to pray to YAHVEH so that He will change His mind about the disasters He is bringing…
This is an answer before reading this thread. Readers might see our differences and similarities. The mercy of the LORD!



Didn't all of these things occur before it was written? But let's consider all of the prophecies in Scripture yet to be fullfilled. These have to come to pass exactly as written, don't they? Otherwise wouldn't it make the Word of God not true? So how can God change His mind about anything when it is already written and settled?

pastor_john
Sep 18th 2008, 12:48 PM
Didn't all of these things occur before it was written? But let's consider all of the prophecies in Scripture yet to be fullfilled. These have to come to pass exactly as written, don't they? Otherwise wouldn't it make the Word of God not true? So how can God change His mind about anything when it is already written and settled?

Sure, the Bible can't change, neither annulled or added to (Gal3:15). Jesus said, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Mt24:34-35). This Bible is what Christ spoke through all the prophets (1Pe1:10-12). When a man speaks, a sensitive hearer will easily get the mind of the speaker. In the same way, as we read the Bible, we should try to understand the heart of the LORD, for His heart, his eye and his name, are all in His word (1Ki9:2-3, 2Ch7:12-16). For example, Jer18 and Jer26 have told us: when His people do evil, the LORD will change His mind about blessing them, instead He will bring disasters upon them. But, when they turn away from their ways, the LORD will also change His mind about His plan to inflict disasters upon them. It's what He does, according to His word. Even the people of Nineveh repented of their evil doings at the word of YAHVEH by Jonah, and YAHVEH changed His mind about the destruction of the whole city. You see this is the heart of the LORD revealed in His word: He does not change this mind, unless we are really rebellious, heart-hardened (Pr1:20-32).

Therefore, those of us who are taken captive by the doctrines of men, the ways of men (Col2:8), we should turn back from them to the doctrine of GOD or the way of GOD, for His is higher than ours, as heaven higher than the earth (Isa55:9-12), this is the meaning of repentance. And the LORD will change His mind about the destruction.

KingFisher
Oct 17th 2008, 03:18 PM
So how are we supposed to know God's will?, and if we know God's will then again prayer become irrelevant becasue we would already know

edaps7 thanks for the honest question. I appologize again that it took me
awhile to get an answer. I don't seek my own way in this life. I also know
that God's ways are not my (man's) ways.

I have no doubt that my own way leads to destruction. I seek out God's
way in prayer and in His word. My faith is in His plans.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

That faith is that this God directed path is for His glory and my
betterment.

Even in the storm, ;)
KingFisher

KingFisher
Oct 17th 2008, 03:42 PM
In one sense God does not repent, not as man repents anyway. God does not set prophesy and change prophesy, and God does not sin so He can't repent of sin, further God knows all so He can't exactly repent of belief.

In the context of Numbers 23:19 or 1 Samuel 15:29 of course, what is stated is true. However, God does repent of doing evil based on certain conditions. He will tell man that He is going to kill him, unless man repents. So the evil that God sets out to do He will repent of if there is man's repentance of evil. This plays out in the book of Jonah...

"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?" - Jonah 3:9
So, God can tell someone or someones that He's going to judge them and they can fall down on their face asking for mercy and, because God is merciful, He may repent of the judgment He had planned for them.

Hi Rufus,

Thanks for the answering my question.

From reading your post I don't think were all that far off.
The Book of Jonah is indeed very telling on the issue.
Even if some parts are difficult for my finite mind.

God knew their repentance would happen...
that's why He sent Jonah...
He knew Jonah would rebel...
That's why He sent the storm...
He knew the storm would kill Jonah...
That's why He prepared a great fish...etc.

All this came about for two reasons...

For man to change his rebellous ways.
and to reveal His glory through grace.

BadDog had a good thread on this awhile back
concerning God and Middle Knowledge.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=33612&highlight=Middle+Knowledge
The whole thread is a good read and post #25
centers on the story of Jonah.


Grace and peace to ya.

Thanks...and back at ya,
KingFisher

KingFisher
Oct 17th 2008, 03:53 PM
Greetings KingFisher,

Let's take a closer look at the verses that you posted and see if we can't reconcile them with the other verses that have been posted. I will add another verse later on in this post that seems to be contradictory.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The context of this verse is the story of Balak trying to bribe Balaam to rise up and curse Israel as a nation. The verse above that is quoted is Balaam's response to Balak. Here is the rest of his response.

Numbers 23:20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

23:21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!

23:24 Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

23:25 And Balak said unto Balaam, Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all.

23:26 But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee, saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?

When we take this verse in context, we see that what Balaam was clearly saying is in respect to a command that God had given him, he could not go against it.

By the same token, when God commanded Elijah to pronounce judgement upon Ahab, Elijah had to prophesy against Ahab as God commanded. But when God changed His plan because Ahab humbled himself, then Elijah could go back and change his prophecy because God had changed it. See example 4, post #1.

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

The setting of this scripture is when Samuel had commanded Saul to slay all of the Amalekites and leave nothing. Saul had it in his mind to save the best of the sheep and oxen for sacrifices. This is referred to in the scriptures as a presumptous sin. When Samuel made the above statement, he was referring to Saul's disobedience to a direct command to him as a leader of the people of Israel and the judgement that followed. Notice that this judgement was not because God planned it that way, but because Saul had rejected God's commandment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

15:25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

God does not change in judgement. God does change His plans according to human responses at times, but He does not change in His commandments. God could have had mercy on Adam, but because Adam disobeyed a direct commandment, "Thou shalt not eat of the tree...", the judgement had already been set and Adam was judged according to the commandment and the judgement that had been given. Which brings us to another verse that has not been mentioned yet, so I will mention it.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

This verse in Malachi deals with same principle that was just discussed in the previous verse. It has to do with the promise that was made to Israel that if they would return unto Him, He would return unto them. Notice that this promise was conditional upon Israel's decision to return unto Him. Look at the next verse.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

As has been already stated, God does not change in judgement to those who reject His commandments, but He will change His plans and even His judgements according to men's repentance and reverance for Him.

God Bless,
Goph

Howdy Goph, :wave:

I was going to write out a long post breaking down each of your points,
but I saw Legoman already said most of what I was going to. I really
can't say it any better than he already humbly did.

God bless you too,
KingFisher
Goph

Kosinis
Oct 19th 2008, 02:13 PM
Wow, wall(s) of texts! :O heh.

I don't think he changes his mind, cause no matter what his plan will prevail.

He may just alter it if we stray or disobey him. I don't think God was going to put Jonah in a fish if he had just obeyed. So.. IMO its on the borderline of Yes and No! =P