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Lady Ashanti
Sep 9th 2008, 10:32 PM
With America being a "super-power" I was wondering where we are in scriptures. I see some scriptures which I think refer to America, [I will post them later], however I was wondering why is it that when I read commentary I do not see America referenced.

Please supply scriptures telling me where you see America in the end times...

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 9th 2008, 10:59 PM
With America being a "super-power" I was wondering where we are in scriptures. I see some scriptures which I think refer to America, , however I was wondering why is it that when I read commentary I do not see America referenced.

Please supply scriptures telling me where you see America in the end times...


I see the Eagles wings as the USA and the Lion as Great Britain, which will split up also the Bear I see as the symbol of Russia.

Daniel 7: 2. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first [I]was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:
I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
GB will have to stand like a man on its own.

In Daniel 8: the USA will deal with Iran just before this President steps down from office, so I see we have not much time before the time of the end period starts.

After the split between the USA and GB, Russia will cause trouble in verse 5. “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”


I can go into more detail later if you wish. :pray:
PC

bennie
Sep 9th 2008, 11:53 PM
I see the Eagles wings as the USA and the Lion as Great Britain, which will split up also the Bear I see as the symbol of Russia.

Daniel 7: 2. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:
I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
GB will have to stand like a man on its own.

In Daniel 8: the USA will deal with Iran just before this President steps down from office, so I see we have not much time before the time of the end period starts.

After the split between the USA and GB, Russia will cause trouble in verse 5. “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”


I can go into more detail later if you wish. :pray:
PC



or the four beast could be,
1) the lion= Babylon. Like the head of Gold in daniel2 is the king of metal so is the lion the king of the beasts
2)the bear=media and persia. One side was raised up, persia was the stronger side between the two. the three ribs represent the provinces of lydia, babylon and egypt.
3)the leopard=grecia. alexander the great was known for how fast he took over the known world. wings=swiftness. after he deid of a mosquito bite:lol:(swamp fever) he's empire was devided between his 4 genarals.
4)the monster beast=roman empire. know for there extended use of iron in there milatery. crushed every thing in there way. scorched earth policy really. ten horns represent the 10 ethnic empires that formed after the roman empire fell..

what you have in daniel 7 is repertition and enlargment of daniel2. the reason God did that, is that we have no question in our minds what represent what. big old uge signs on the road to the end of the age.
history can not be changed. prophecy is just future in advance.

God does the same in daniel8 . He anchors events so that there could be no confusion.

bennie

IPet2_9
Sep 9th 2008, 11:53 PM
America is one of the kings who fornicates with the harlot.

Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

The Parson
Sep 10th 2008, 12:17 AM
America is one of the kings who fornicates with the harlot.

Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."Really??? I've never seen anything to even come close to describing the US in the scriptures that would tell me that we are committing anything with that gal. Can you give us a chapter and verse?

IPet2_9
Sep 10th 2008, 12:37 AM
If the harlot rides the Beast and the Beast is the New World Order, or the Catholic Church, or almost anything most of us believe on here, it is not that big of a stretch to say that America is fornicating with her.

The Parson
Sep 10th 2008, 12:46 AM
If the harlot rides the Beast and the Beast is the New World Order, or the Catholic Church, or almost anything most of us believe on here, it is not that big of a stretch to say that America is fornicating with her.No, I hear what you are saying. That isn't quite my point though. I could just as well say that since we aren't mentioned we may be:


Knocked out of the picture by being defeated somehow.
We just aren't a player in the events to come.

I find that in understanding the written prophecy, there needs to be a tieing (scriptural) mention that makes things clear as to what the prophet was talking about. Otherwise, it is just speculation. Hey, I've been just as guilty of wanting to fill the gaps so to speak but sometimes it's just better to wait and see. Otherwise, we tend to have so many theories on the subject we cloud our own perception.

For instance, the prophecies concerning the Lord Jesus. The Jews were looking for the Lion of Judah to come first, not the Lamb of Isaiah 53 if you get my meaning... Therefore, they were so proud and stubborn on their theories, the totally missed who the messiah really was.

apothanein kerdos
Sep 10th 2008, 12:56 AM
If there is an "End Times" and if it happens 500-1,000 years from now, I'd say America wouldn't really be a factor, wouldn't you?

Even if it were 50 years from now, America probably wouldn't be a factor. We just won't hold that much influence in the future.

The Parson
Sep 10th 2008, 12:58 AM
If there is an "End Times" and if it happens 500-1,000 years from now, I'd say America wouldn't really be a factor, wouldn't you?

Even if it were 50 years from now, America probably wouldn't be a factor. We just won't hold that much influence in the future.I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in more depth on that if you have the time.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 10th 2008, 02:27 AM
Please supply scriptures telling me where you see America in the end times...Nowhere - we are going to eventually wind up on the ash pile of history. Hopefully it won't be during our lifetime.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 10th 2008, 02:30 AM
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in more depth on that if you have the time.I can tell you from my point of view that we are a doomed nation. Economically, we are setting ourselves up for a financial disaster that's going to make 1929 look like a little bump on the road. If this nation is still solvent and open for business 50 years from now, I'll be shocked. We are headed for the biggest national downfall that this world has ever seen. I just hope that I'm not still here to witness it.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 03:43 AM
I see the Eagles wings as the USA and the Lion as Great Britain, which will split up also the Bear I see as the symbol of Russia.

Daniel 7: 2. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:
I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
GB will have to stand like a man on its own.

In Daniel 8: the USA will deal with Iran just before this President steps down from office, so I see we have not much time before the time of the end period starts.

After the split between the USA and GB, Russia will cause trouble in verse 5. “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”


I can go into more detail later if you wish. :pray:
PC


It is my understanding of "symbols" in scripture that the eagle represents Prophet[s], and Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Lion is Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb, and the Lion.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 10th 2008, 03:44 AM
It is my understanding of "symbols" in scripture that the eagle represents Prophet[s], and Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy.How do you figure on equating an eagle with prophets?

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 03:48 AM
America is one of the kings who fornicates with the harlot.

Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

Who is the harlot???

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 03:51 AM
Nowhere - we are going to eventually wind up on the ash pile of history. Hopefully it won't be during our lifetime.

:o

...I have always wondered on this since the beginning of my salvation. I have always thought that we are either destroyed, or absorbed into another country. Just a thought..

I am seeing something in my study, tho'

Literalist-Luke
Sep 10th 2008, 03:55 AM
:o

...I have always wondered on this since the beginning of my salvation. I have always thought that we are either destroyed, or absorbed into another country. Just a thought..

I am seeing something in my study, tho'All I know for certain is that in Revelation 16, it is stated that every single nation on this earth comes against Israel in the end, participating in the Antichrist's final once-for-all attempt to annihilate them from the earth. There is no room for any exception, including the USA. So whatever form we are in at the time of the 2nd Coming, we will, nationally, be in rebellion against God at that point, just like every other nation on earth. So for those who continue to hold on to the hope that our precious USA will have some positive role in the end of history, face the facts. We're just as evil as anybody else in the end.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 03:59 AM
How do you figure on equating an eagle with prophets?

Just something I read while back...I have to research this again...

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 04:11 AM
All I know for certain is that in Revelation 16, it is stated that every single nation on this earth comes against Israel in the end, participating in the Antichrist's final once-for-all attempt to annihilate them from the earth. There is no room for any exception, including the USA. So whatever form we are in at the time of the 2nd Coming, we will, nationally, be in rebellion against God at that point, just like every other nation on earth. So for those who continue to hold on to the hope that our precious USA will have some positive role in the end of history, face the facts. We're just as evil as anybody else in the end.

I think we might be the "harlot" because it is my understanding that we were started as a Christian nation however we have definitely left our first love, and you know what happens when God's people do that...:eek:...smh!!!

I think there will be something that will happen before the Rapture, which will be after the persecution of the church to separate the true believers from the false, [the prepare a church without a spot, or wrinkle]...

In Acts 1: 8 the Lord told His people to go spread the Gospel, however they got comfortable where they were, so in Acts 8: 1 persecution arose to drive them into those very areas that they did not go willingly.

We are to be salt/light in all the world...they Lord told us to GO, not send and somehow we think we have obeyed God because we send our pastors, and have TBN...smh!!!

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 10th 2008, 12:25 PM
Bennie
“or the four beast could be,
1) the lion= Babylon. Like the head of Gold in daniel2 is the king of metal so is the lion the king of the beasts”
Capitals used for emphasis only.

I can’t go along with number 1) because we are now at the feet of iron and clay way past 476AD when the Iron empire of Rome ceased to exist as an empire.



We are told in Daniel 2: 43. “And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


44. And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.



That did not occur during any of the past empires. The four that rise up are found in Daniel 7 1 – 7 the four beasts are standing together so they cannot represent past individual empires also in verse 27 God sets up His kingdom whilst they are around at that same time whereas the historic empires are no longer empires or around and we still wait for the coming kingdom of God.


Bennie
2)the bear=media and persia. One side was raised up, persia was the stronger side between the two. the three ribs represent the provinces of lydia, babylon and egypt.
Again the same applies to 2) the bear is there with the lion, leopard and fourth beast all together until God sets up His kingdom which did not happen during any of the past kingdoms which are not around at the set time of the end at the feet of the metal empire time statue. Babylon was the head of gold, Medo/Persia was the silver shoulders and arms, Greece was the Brass and the Roman empire was at the legs of iron, none of those historic powers were or are at the feet of iron and clay where we are told in verse 27 of the overview of Daniel 7: that they are around at the time when God sets up His kingdom.


Bennie
“3)the leopard=grecia. alexander the great was known for how fast he took over the known world. wings=swiftness. after he deid of a mosquito bitefile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif(swamp fever) he's empire was devided between his 4 genarals.”
Again Alexander did not see God set up His kingdom and his kingdom was not around at the feet of iron and clay. Also the four that stand up are the LION in Daniel 7: 3 which I believe to be Great Britain after it loses its American partner the eagle’s wings within the alliance Britain will have to stand alone with the heart of a man.
The second beast to rise is the BEAR Russia that’s two then the third called the leopard and the fourth beast which makes four then we will see after the time of the end period the God of Heaven set up His kingdom.


Bennie.
”4)the monster beast=roman empire. know for there extended use of iron in there milatery. crushed every thing in there way. scorched earth policy really. ten horns represent the 10 ethnic empires that formed after the roman empire fell..” Again Rome was finished in 476AD and did not see God’s kingdom at the legs of iron. We are at the feet of iron and clay long after the Roman Empire went into historic oblivion.
The statue is there to pinpoint the time of these events to ignore them is I believe unwise.



Bennie
what you have in daniel 7 is repertition and enlargment of daniel2. the reason God did that, is that we have no question in our minds what represent what. big old uge signs on the road to the end of the age.
history can not be changed. prophecy is just future in advance.

God does the same in daniel8 . He anchors events so that there could be no confusion.

bennie
Daniel 7 is the overview followed by the expansion of it in Daniel 8: 9: 10: 11: and 12.
You see Bennie the Greeks attacked the Medo/Persians on the plains of Arbella 1000 miles away from the Ulai river now called the Karun river which is in Iran. That is the location where the Rough goat from the West meets the ram head on.

Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.


Daniel 8: 3. “Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, THERE STOOD BEFORE THE RIVER A RAM which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but ONE was HIGHER THAN THE OTHER, and THE HIGHER CAME UP LAST.”

So that is the location within the vision now note that the higher horn Iran comes up last.
Iraq is being dealt with now however we see the higher horn come up which is Iran and this bit of prophecy I tell you now. America will attack the higher horn Iran with air and sea power without touching the ground whereas Alexander had to ride upon it on horses at the time of brass upon that time period statue.

Daniel 8: 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Another bit of prophecy. Before President Bush leaves office and he is the number one king/president of the Western nations and he is the horn which will be broken in verses 21 and the four are those powers that rise in Daniel 7: 3 – 7 after the eagle’s wings in the alliance are plucked off the lion/great Britain being the four notable nations that rise up.

Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Now to deal with the word used in verse 21 as being ‘Grecia.’

We will have to find the original name that ‘Grecia’ is translated from.
The number for the word ‘Grecia’ is 3120.
The number for Javan is 3120 being the same and when we read the following we can see that the name is the used along with his sons as those that populated the lands of the Gentiles.
This number 3120 can be found in Geneses 10: 4. “And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.”
5. “BY THESE WERE THE ISLES OF THE GENTILES DIVIDED IN THERE LANDS; EVERY ONE AFTER HIS TONGUE, AFTER THEIR FAMILIES, IN THEIR NATIONS.”
Note ‘in their nations’ so the word 3120 Javan does not mean a single nation as such but the man through his sons populating the Gentile lands.

The law of first usage takes primacy over any translation.

Credit to THE EVERY DAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.
3120Yavan { yaw-vawn’}

probably from the same as 3196; TWOT - 855;

AV - Javan 7, Grecia 3, Greece 1; 11

GK - 3430 { ÷w:y:
Javan = “Ionia” or “Greece”
n pr m
1) a son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
n pr loc
2) Greece, Ionia, Ionians
2a) location of descendants of Javan

“Grecian. “Grec’cian, The term Grecian, Hellenist, denotes a Jew by birth or religion who spoke Greek.”
“It is used chiefly of foreign Jews and proselytes in contrast with the Hebrews speaking the vernacukar Hebrew or Aramaean.”
“Greeks was the term used for non-Jewish people”
“Greece, Greeks, Gre’cians.”
“The histories of Greece and Palestine are little connected with each other.”
“In Geneses. 10:2-5 Moses mentions the descendants of YAVAN as peopling the Isles of the Gentiles; and when the Hebrews came into contact with the Ionians of Asia Minor, and recognized them as the long-lost islanders of the western migration, it was natural that they should mark the similarity of sound between JAVAN Iones.”
“Accordingly the Old Testament word which is GRECIA in authorized Version GREECE, GREECS, etc., IS IN HEBREW JAVAN Dan. 8:21;”
‘THE EVERY DAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.’ (Formerly published as peloubet’s Bible Dictionary) Copyright 1925.,Inc, 1913by Holt, Rinehart and Winson 1967., Inc. Copyright 1971 by Zondervan Publishing House. Assigned to Zondervan Publishing House, Grand rapids Michigan.
PC :hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 10th 2008, 12:28 PM
Who is the harlot???

Lady Ashanti
I am fairly sure that the Harlot is Israel-Jerusalem, for biblical proof of this please read Ezekiel 16: 1 – 63.

PC:hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 10th 2008, 12:36 PM
It is my understanding of "symbols" in scripture that the eagle represents Prophet[s], and Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy, and the Lion is Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb, and the Lion.

Lady Ashanti
Daniel 7: 3.
The lion with the eagle’s wings, which are ripped off the lion occurs just before God sets up his kingdom in verse 27 at the second coming of Christ. So the Lion can’t be the Christ yet to return.
I can explain more if you wish.
PC:hug:

apothanein kerdos
Sep 10th 2008, 04:11 PM
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in more depth on that if you have the time.

Well to be honest I've never spent a lot of time studying this issue. I've spent enough time to know that there's a lot of hermeneutical acrobatics going on when dealing with the end times, but not enough to be convinced of any one position. I don't think one's view on the end really affects much as what really matters is what we do here, thus I haven't spent a lot of time studying it.

As for my view on America and the end times - if there is a tribulation, most Christians believe it will be like the time of Noah. Now the time of Noah was so evil God decided to wipe man from the fact of the earth. This had to be the most sinful generation the world has ever seen. The reason is for Jesus to say it will be so bad it will be like the time of Noah, all the while living in the Roman Empire (one that endorsed orgies and thought it was taboo for a man of power not to have a male child as a lover, among other things), then the time of Noah must have been pretty bad. The Bible never goes into too much detail on how evil it was, other than that. For me, the Roman period puts our period to shame in terms of moral decay, but even that wasn't enough for Jesus to say, "It will pretty much be as bad as this."

What I'm getting at is the world will be in a pretty bad spot morally. We're just not there right now, there is still some semblance of morality. Thus, in my opinion it would have to take at least 50-100 years (2-3 generations) to get into a state where there simply is no morality.

With that in mind, America wouldn't be influential at that point. America's been losing its economic influence ever since the EU came to power, it's lost its production influence due to China and India, it's in the process of losing its political influence (and no one will change that...almost a majority of the world believes the US government was involved in 9/11, showing that the world simply hates the American government [so much so they're willing to adopt an ignorant belief]), and so on. The one main area of influence we still hold is our cultural influence, but even now we're starting to take directions from Europe.

Secondly, do you think that America won't have some type of nuclear attack within the next 50 years? The way a nuclear attack works with the fallout and the way our economy is set up, any major city that was attacked would cause an absolute economic downfall in the US. This would, in turn, cause America to become quite insignificant.

In conclusion, there's no reason to think America is involved in Biblical prophecy. It's possible, but the only way for us to determine it's America is to turn to eisegesis; we have to read our interpretation into the Scripture. That's just not a practice I'm comfortable with.

IPet2_9
Sep 10th 2008, 05:11 PM
Lady Ashanti
I am fairly sure that the Harlot is Israel-Jerusalem, for biblical proof of this please read Ezekiel 16: 1 – 63.

I second what Prophecy_Countdown said. And I would point not just to Ezekiel, but also Jeremiah and Hosea.

So yeah, you've got the Beast, who was, now is not, and is yet to come (Rev. 17:8); and the whole world is astonished that the Beast returned (Rev. 17:8)--all of which *EXACTLY* describes Israel. You've got the Harlot riding the Beast...

...And you've got the kings who fornicate with her (Rev. 18:3). That is the U.S., right there. No question that the U.S. has a relationship with Israel.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 11:54 PM
So yeah, you've got the Beast, who was, now is not, and is yet to come (Rev. 17:8); and the whole world is astonished that the Beast returned (Rev. 17:8)--all of which *EXACTLY* describes Israel. You've got the Harlot riding the Beast...

...And you've got the kings who fornicate with her (Rev. 18:3). That is the U.S., right there. No question that the U.S. has a relationship with Israel.

WoW!!! That may be right about Israel...I will be studying this some more...thanks!!!

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 12:35 AM
OK, so if the Beast is Israel, then who are the armies of the world coming against at Armageddon?

brakelite
Sep 11th 2008, 12:46 AM
Yes.

Revelation 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


This beast refers to none other than the US. All beasts in prophecy are nations or kingdoms. And all the details of the various beasts reflect certain characteristics of the nations they represent.
We understand the beats of Daniel 7. The angel explains first their identity, and we, through studying history, are able to tie in relevant facts of history to match the prophetic picture.
Example are: Archeology has uncovered huge murals of lions with wings on within the ancient ruins of Babylon. The bear had 3 ribs in it's mouth. They represent the principle powers which were conquered by Media/Persia. Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt. The bear also was raised up on one side. This denotes the imbalance of power within the kingdom. It correctly reflects that the dominant power came up last- the Persian. The leopard divided into 4 heads which represent the 4 kingdoms that came up after Alexander's death. Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucis, and Lysimachus. Just as mentioned previously the 10 horns on the 4th beast represent the 10 nations that arose within Rome , 3 of which were later destroyed by the 11th 'little horn'.
This 'little horn' grew to such power that it became a beast in it's own right. This beast inherited all the characteristics of the previous 4 beasts by assimilating much of their culture and religious practice into it's own form of organised religion, and we see that composite beast in Revelation 13 - the one that rose out of the sea. This beast is the papacy. A continuation of the Roamn empire, thus being entirely consistent with the prophecy gf the statue in Daniel 2, the 4 th empire enduring to the second coming.
The papacy however was inflicted with a mortal head wound in 1798 when the pope was captured and taken into exile by Napoleon's army where he died. The world believed the papacy was finished.
However, in 1929 Mussolini returned the pope to civil rule once more and the beast lived again.
At the same time of the papacy's death, their arose the second beast from the earth, the US. As the papacy was waning in strength and power in the late 18th century, so the US was on the rise. The Bill of Rights, the Constitution and Decal. of Independence were all passed at this time. As the papacy rose out of tghe sea, (Peoples nations tongues etc Rev 17) so the second beast rose out of the earth. An area of comparative emptiness where there was little existing population. The two horns like a lamb denote that it was established as a power , unlike all the predecessors , with no king and no pope. The horns you see had no crowns. The lamblike nature also represents the innocence of her infancy, and the 'Christlike' character of her founding. Her present character however is becoming more like the dragon.

There is much more in both history and the Scriptures to tis all this together, but at the moment I don't have the time. I hope I can fill in gaps later.

IPet2_9
Sep 11th 2008, 12:57 AM
OK, so if the Beast is Israel, then who are the armies of the world coming against at Armageddon?

My impression of Armageddon is that there are at least three sides fighting--not two. One is the Beast, one are the armies of those who have come to despise the Harlot (and who destroyed Babylon--Rev. 17:16), and one is the Heavenly army of God. We know for a fact that someone destroyed Babylon, and that was before Christ's return, so it's pretty clear that somebody does not like each other.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 01:01 AM
Yes.

Revelation 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


This beast refers to none other than the US. All beasts in prophecy are nations or kingdoms. And all the details of the various beasts reflect certain characteristics of the nations they represent.
We understand the beats of Daniel 7. The angel explains first their identity, and we, through studying history, are able to tie in relevant facts of history to match the prophetic picture.
Example are: Archeology has uncovered huge murals of lions with wings on within the ancient ruins of Babylon. The bear had 3 ribs in it's mouth. They represent the principle powers which were conquered by Media/Persia. Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt. The bear also was raised up on one side. This denotes the imbalance of power within the kingdom. It correctly reflects that the dominant power came up last- the Persian. The leopard divided into 4 heads which represent the 4 kingdoms that came up after Alexander's death. Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucis, and Lysimachus. Just as mentioned previously the 10 horns on the 4th beast represent the 10 nations that arose within Rome , 3 of which were later destroyed by the 11th 'little horn'.
This 'little horn' grew to such power that it became a beast in it's own right. This beast inherited all the characteristics of the previous 4 beasts by assimilating much of their culture and religious practice into it's own form of organised religion, and we see that composite beast in Revelation 13 - the one that rose out of the sea. This beast is the papacy. A continuation of the Roamn empire, thus being entirely consistent with the prophecy gf the statue in Daniel 2, the 4 th empire enduring to the second coming.
The papacy however was inflicted with a mortal head wound in 1798 when the pope was captured and taken into exile by Napoleon's army where he died. The world believed the papacy was finished.
However, in 1929 Mussolini returned the pope to civil rule once more and the beast lived again.
At the same time of the papacy's death, their arose the second beast from the earth, the US. As the papacy was waning in strength and power in the late 18th century, so the US was on the rise. The Bill of Rights, the Constitution and Decal. of Independence were all passed at this time. As the papacy rose out of tghe sea, (Peoples nations tongues etc Rev 17) so the second beast rose out of the earth. An area of comparative emptiness where there was little existing population. The two horns like a lamb denote that it was established as a power , unlike all the predecessors , with no king and no pope. The horns you see had no crowns. The lamblike nature also represents the innocence of her infancy, and the 'Christlike' character of her founding. Her present character however is becoming more like the dragon.

There is much more in both history and the Scriptures to tis all this together, but at the moment I don't have the time. I hope I can fill in gaps later.I say the 2nd beast is Quebec. They attempted to leave Canada several years ago, so they are rising up out of their land. And after the USA falls when the inevitable economic disaster strikes us, that will mean that Canada will have to assume supervision of the North American continent. Quebec is the most populous province of Canada, so it's only logical that Quebec is the 2nd beast. :thumbsup:

faroutinmt
Sep 11th 2008, 01:01 AM
I don't believe that America is mentioned in bible prophecy...unless you count it among the nations which are as a drop in a bucket compared to the infinite greatness of God.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 01:16 AM
I don't believe that America is mentioned in bible prophecy...unless you count it among the nations which are as a drop in a bucket compared to the infinite greatness of God.Yeah, but Quebec is in there. You can count on it. :yes: :thumbsup:

IPet2_9
Sep 11th 2008, 01:20 AM
I bet we can find two of something in the Bible, too. We can make that the DFW Metroplex. Oh I know! The Two Witnesses! The Two Witnesses symbolize Dallas and Fort Worth.

faroutinmt
Sep 11th 2008, 01:21 AM
Is that in the French/ Canadian translation? :)

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 01:22 AM
I bet we can find two of something in the Bible, too. We can make that the DFW Metroplex. Oh I know! The Two Witnesses! The Two Witnesses symbolize Dallas and Fort Worth.The only problem with that is that, as hot as it gets around here in the summer, I doubt anybody would even notice when the fire starts getting called down from heaven......

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 01:24 AM
Is that in the French/ Canadian translation? :)No, no, I'm just, ahem, interpreting Scripture the way the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me. Do you mean to imply that the Quebec connection isn't totally obvious to you? In that case, you just need to get right with God, my friend. I'll be praying that your eyes are opened.

danield
Sep 11th 2008, 03:11 AM
Well I too am one to think that America is mentioned in the end times by being the lion’s wings that fall off. I also think that America is the harlot that rides the beast, and the beast is a leader out of the Middle East, and their payment is oil.


Daniel 7:4 4 The first beast was like a lion with eagles' wings. As I watched, its wings were pulled off, and it was left standing with its two hind feet on the ground, like a human being. And it was given a human mind.

I think several have explained this passage pretty well. I will add that my interpretation of the human mind is a reference to the many leaps the west has made in technology. The Nuclear bomb has got to be one of the biggest inventions for all mankind. I am not saying that the rest of the countries of the world lack intelligence, I am just saying that America and Brittan have been at the forefront of some of the most leading research in modern history. I will add that many of our inventions have come from people who have migrated here to America from other countries for one reason or another. In any event, we have been on the cutting edge of discovery for some time now.

As for my second assessment of America being the Harlot that rides the beast, here is how I see it. There are several clues in Revelation as to who this identity is. Many claim that it is the Catholic Church or even perhaps Europe with a united EU as a revised Roman empire. This can not be true because the woman who rides the beast sits on seven hills. Well the EU does not sit on Seven Hills. Also the Catholic Church does not sit on seven Hills. Those hills are in Rome which is outside the Vatican. Our creator does not make mistakes. If he told us that she sits on seven hills than those hills have to be under her reign. I will also add that the EU is headquartered in Paris and there are more than seven hills or mountains throughout the EU. I can go on and on with many reasons why those two are not the harlot, but I better press on about where America is in scripture.


Rev 7:9 “This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings.

I feel that these hills are:

1. The Rocky Mountains
2. The Appalachian Mountains
3. The Sierra Nevada
4. The Cascades
5. The Brooks Range
6. The Alaska Range
7. The Coast Range.

I do not consider the Ozarks as a true mountain range. I believe they are considered foothills and not a true mountain range.

On the second passage where it calls for seven kings, I too think that the modern day presidents are represented as the king of our land. They are not true monarchs, but they are the leaders of our nation, and hold a tremendous amount of power that could be compared to kings of ages past. I am not on board to calling President Bush the forth king in the series of seven because I just do not know. I have prayed about it but I do not have a clear understanding to his position in history if he even has any. It would be real speculation if I put a time line in at this point. What I do know is that we are involved in the Middle East in a big way now. I think our relationship with Babylon is that we are its protector. The payment is with oil which contributes to a stable economy for our citizens. I think that the Middle East is Babylon, and the eight king will come out of this area.


Revelation 17:10-11 10 Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief. 11 "The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction.

I think here is a real clue as to what will happen. I think the leadership will change forcefully from our current elected presidents to the scarlet beast which is the AC. Notice how the seventh king reign is short. We see more evidence of this in these passages.


Revelation 17:15-17 15 ¶ Then the angel said to me, "The waters where the prostitute is ruling represent masses of people of every nation and language. 16 The scarlet beast and his ten horns all hate the prostitute. They will strip her naked, eat her flesh, and burn her remains with fire. 17 For God has put a plan into their minds, a plan that will carry out his purposes. They will agree to give their authority to the scarlet beast, and so the words of God will be fulfilled.

The scarlet beast hates the prostitute just as some of the leaders in the Middle East hate the USA. They would like nothing better than to take all of our wealth, and somehow he manipulates the people of the land to give him authority.

I will also add that the USA is considered the melting pot of the world because we come from every nation and language of the world. Also look at how we export immorality to the world. Our latest legalization of gay marriage is a shinning example of this.


Revelation 17:6 6 ¶ I could see that she was drunk-- drunk with the blood of God's holy people who were witnesses for Jesus.

I think here is another clue as to America being the harlot. I have two interpretations that I cannot decide on how it unfolds. The first being that somehow we get caught up in some sort of battle to relinquish power to the beast. The second being that no blood will be spilled at all but it is a reference to how the harlot conducts her affairs. In essence she is drunk with self-righteous because so many of her citizens witness for Jesus. For instance, the insignia of in God we trust on our currency is really a reference to any god, but the majority of our people think it is a reference to our God. This self-righteousness has been warped many times and in many ways which probably would be better suited for another thread. But I do tend to lean towards this interpretation more so than the first.

Also another clue to who the harlot is, is the description of her great wealth. There is only one country in the world who has imported the goods and services around the globe on a scale as described in


Revelation 18:11-13 11 ¶ The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. 12 She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble. 13 She also bought cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and bodies-- that is, human slaves.

I just want to add that the Vatican is not that wealthy to make rich all the merchants of the world.

Our government is modeled after the city-states of Greece which were democratic. Using Ronald Regan’s words, “he see’s America as the Shinning City on the hill. “

Two other notable things about America is that we do rule over many waters.


Revelation 17:1 "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters.

Also at the time of John’s vision America was a great wilderness.


Revelation 17:3 3 So the angel took me in the Spirit into the wilderness.

Anyway I think I have said enough. I hate to sound unpatriotic but I do think the USA is mentioned in the bible. I think that the wings falling off the lion is actually the destruction of the harlot of Babylon. And it will be then that the world makes war on Israel. I hope I have not offended anyone with my views.

God Bless.

Gods Child
Sep 11th 2008, 03:38 AM
I see the Eagles wings as the USA and the Lion as Great Britain, which will split up also the Bear I see as the symbol of Russia.

Daniel 7: 2. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:
I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
GB will have to stand like a man on its own.

In Daniel 8: the USA will deal with Iran just before this President steps down from office, so I see we have not much time before the time of the end period starts.

After the split between the USA and GB, Russia will cause trouble in verse 5. “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”


I can go into more detail later if you wish. :pray:
PC


I would say that I agree with you on this.

Within Daniel 7 we see the beasts – In verse 17-18 We are told that these beasts are kings/kingdoms that are on the earth at the time that Jesus comes in the clouds to set up his kingdom.

During the time of these beasts - we are told in verse 9 that the little horn (antichrist) will rise up among these Beasts (kingdoms).
By this we can see that these beasts of Daniel 7 are kingdoms on the earth at the end when the antichrist is on the earth to the time when Jesus returns.

This is backed up by Rev 13 where we see these beasts again during the time of the tribulation. This confirms that these beasts are on the earth during the time of the end (tribulation). Therefore, the beasts of Daniel 7 can not be past empires, because they are shown as the same beasts (king/kingdoms) of the tribulation of Rev 13. Therefore, They can only be end time nations who are present at the time of Jesus return as both Daniel 7 and Rev 13 tells us.

This is my take on who the beasts are of Daniel 7;
(Daniel 7; 4-7) Lion-with eagles wings that are plucked from the lion. England’s animal symbol is the lion and Our USA animal symbol is the Eagle. The USA (eagle) was plucked out of the England (Lion).
The bear – Russia animal symbol is the bear.
The Leopard with the wings of a foul – Germany animal symbol is the leopard – France animal symbol is the rooster (foul) = German/Franco alliance.

I find it ironic that Daniel depicted 4 beast on the earth just prior to Jesus return. Daniel told us that these beast are king/kingdoms and gave each beast a animal symbol. Today we can see that yes! there are nations on the earth today that have those animal symbols.
( Lion=England - Eagle=USA - Bear=Russia - Leopard=Germany - Foul= France)

What I find interesting is; In Daniel 7 we see these beasts are separate, but by Revelation 13 we see these beast have joined together, which shows a world government.

What I also find interesting is; In Daniel 7 we see the lion, eagle wings, bear & Leopard, but in Rev 13 the eagles wings are not depicted as being a part of this end time one world government...Why?

If I am correct and the eagles wings represent the USA, then why are we not depicted in Rev 13 as being part of the One World Government?
Two possibilities; We have been destroyed or we are not part of the One World Government at that time.
I pray that we are not part of it. There is a scripture that makes me think that MAYBE we will not be part of it and that is Rev 12:14 where Israel is given wings of a eagle to protect her during the tribulation. Perhaps we opt out and help Israel.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

It is possible that we do, because we can see by Daniel 11 that the antichrist makes war with someone, which means he has opposition. I pray that the opposition would be with the Eagles wings (USA) who is protecting Israel.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 11th 2008, 04:53 AM
I think we are thinking of ourselves as being far more important than we really are. We're only slightly over 200 years old, yet the handwriting is already on the wall for our "empire". That's not very impressive, considering how long Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Islamic Caliphate lasted. We need to see ourselves within a larger picture.

TravisJ
Sep 11th 2008, 07:06 PM
I think in the book of Daniel... The lion with the eagle attached to its back and was separated Eagle which is the U.S look at our national emblem... an Eagle. We separated from Great Britain way back in 1776 as our own nation in independence... I know you guys know this.. I just wanted to say it.. But its wonderful how you see the Bible to come into place.

My heart's Desire
Sep 11th 2008, 11:28 PM
My opinion is that as wherever "the nations" are mentioned we are included. As far as having a starring role (actually mentioned by name or description in a verse other than as a nation) then No, I do not believe America is in End time Prophecy. Except that all people everywhere WILL have a part.
Now, having said that though, the fact that America is at this time engaged in so many of Israel's affairs and some of the things that are being said about our Presidential canditates it sometimes it makes you wonder at the significance.

My heart's Desire
Sep 11th 2008, 11:43 PM
No, I hear what you are saying. That isn't quite my point though. I could just as well say that since we aren't mentioned we may be:


Knocked out of the picture by being defeated somehow.
We just aren't a player in the events to come.

I
This would be my line of thinking also because if we are talking about what happens as the Book of Revelation describes as the judgments fall and all the millions who are killed through it all, not to mention that most of it all will be supernatural, well I just don't see many nations still together as nations...think of the worse war torn country that you can think of that also suffers all that unnatural weather, destruction at the same time. Then think of the whole world looking like that one country you just imagined. Honestly, I just CAN'T imagine much of anything remaining the same. Be it a nation or person!

Literalist-Luke
Sep 12th 2008, 05:22 AM
I think in the book of Daniel... The lion with the eagle attached to its back and was separated Eagle which is the U.S look at our national emblem... an Eagle. We separated from Great Britain way back in 1776 as our own nation in independence... I know you guys know this.. I just wanted to say it.. But its wonderful how you see the Bible to come into place.Eagles have been used by many nations as a national symbol.

The coat of arms of Navarre/Basque Country Kingdom has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Albania has a black double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Armenia has a gold eagle and lion.
The coat of arms of Austria has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of the Czech Republic integrates the symbols of Moravia and Silesia (both with female eagles in their emblems - red-and-white chequered and black respectively) on the coat of arms of the Czech Republic with Bohemia's lion.
The coat of arms of Egypt is a golden eagle looking towards the viewer's left.
The coat of arms of Germany has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Ghana has two golden eagles holding it.
The coat of arms of Indonesia has an eagle-like garuda carrying a shield on its neck and a banner on its feet.
The coat of arms of Iraq has the golden Eagle of Saladin
The coat of arms of Jordan has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Mexico golden eagle perched upon a cactus devouring a snake.
The coat of arms of Moldova consists of a stylized eagle holding a cross in its beak and a sceptre and a branch in its claws.
The coat of arms of Montenegro represents the two-headed eagle in flight.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
The Insignia of the Pakistan Air Force includes the Peregrine Falcon State Military national bird.
The coat of arms of Panama has a harpy eagle
The coat of arms of the Philippines has the bald eagle of the United States.
The coat of arms of Poland has a white eagle with a golden beak and talons wearing a golden crown.
The coat of arms of Romania has a golden aquila holding a cross in its beak and a mace and a sword in its claws.
The coat of arms of Russia has a double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Serbia has a white bicephalic eagle of the House of Nemanjić.
The coat of arms of Syria formerly had the eagle of Saladin.
The Great Seal of the United States has a bald eagle.
The coat of arms of Yemen depicts a golden eagle with a scroll between its claws.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Hellenistic Egypt. The Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt used it as their seal.
First French Empire. Napoleon Bonaparte used the Roman Golden Eagle as the symbol of his new French empire.
Persian Empire. The symbol of Persian Army was an Eagle
Rome. The Romans used it on the standards of their armies. From this derives:
The late Byzantine Empire chose a two-headed golden eagle as its symbol. It is popularly that one head symbolised ancient Rome, and the other head symbolised "new Rome" at Constantinople. From this derives:
Albania. The two-headed eagle is the emblem of "Shqipëria" or Land of the Eagles, which is known in English as Albania (see The Tale of the Eagle for the legendary origin of the name)
Russian Empire. After the fall of Constantinople, the Russian Empire took the two-headed eagle as its own symbol.
Charlemagne and Holy Roman Empire. After his crowning as the new Roman Emperor, Charlemagne adopted the ancient Roman eagle as his own symbol. The Holy Roman Empire born of his kingdom took the eagle, but the Habsburgs replaced the golden eagle by an imperial eagle. From this derives:
Austria. The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria.
Germany and Prussia. Prussia, and later Germany have used a black eagle as their national symbol.
Spain. The Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, used the eagle as a part of the royal shield representing Saint John the Evangelist. The eagle was again on the Spanish shield under the Francoist regime and the transition to Democracy (1939-1981).
The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks used a double-headed eagle as coats-of-arms.

So which one shall we randomly choose to be our pet fulfillment of the "eagle's wings"?

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 12th 2008, 01:15 PM
Eagles have been used by many nations as a national symbol.

The coat of arms of Navarre/Basque Country Kingdom has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Albania has a black double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Armenia has a gold eagle and lion.
The coat of arms of Austria has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of the Czech Republic integrates the symbols of Moravia and Silesia (both with female eagles in their emblems - red-and-white chequered and black respectively) on the coat of arms of the Czech Republic with Bohemia's lion.
The coat of arms of Egypt is a golden eagle looking towards the viewer's left.
The coat of arms of Germany has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Ghana has two golden eagles holding it.
The coat of arms of Indonesia has an eagle-like garuda carrying a shield on its neck and a banner on its feet.
The coat of arms of Iraq has the golden Eagle of Saladin
The coat of arms of Jordan has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Mexico golden eagle perched upon a cactus devouring a snake.
The coat of arms of Moldova consists of a stylized eagle holding a cross in its beak and a sceptre and a branch in its claws.
The coat of arms of Montenegro represents the two-headed eagle in flight.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
The Insignia of the Pakistan Air Force includes the Peregrine Falcon State Military national bird.
The coat of arms of Panama has a harpy eagle
The coat of arms of the Philippines has the bald eagle of the United States.
The coat of arms of Poland has a white eagle with a golden beak and talons wearing a golden crown.
The coat of arms of Romania has a golden aquila holding a cross in its beak and a mace and a sword in its claws.
The coat of arms of Russia has a double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Serbia has a white bicephalic eagle of the House of Nemanjić.
The coat of arms of Syria formerly had the eagle of Saladin.
The Great Seal of the United States has a bald eagle.
The coat of arms of Yemen depicts a golden eagle with a scroll between its claws.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Hellenistic Egypt. The Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt used it as their seal.
First French Empire. Napoleon Bonaparte used the Roman Golden Eagle as the symbol of his new French empire.
Persian Empire. The symbol of Persian Army was an Eagle
Rome. The Romans used it on the standards of their armies. From this derives:
The late Byzantine Empire chose a two-headed golden eagle as its symbol. It is popularly that one head symbolised ancient Rome, and the other head symbolised "new Rome" at Constantinople. From this derives:
Albania. The two-headed eagle is the emblem of "Shqipëria" or Land of the Eagles, which is known in English as Albania (see The Tale of the Eagle for the legendary origin of the name)
Russian Empire. After the fall of Constantinople, the Russian Empire took the two-headed eagle as its own symbol.
Charlemagne and Holy Roman Empire. After his crowning as the new Roman Emperor, Charlemagne adopted the ancient Roman eagle as his own symbol. The Holy Roman Empire born of his kingdom took the eagle, but the Habsburgs replaced the golden eagle by an imperial eagle. From this derives:
Austria. The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria.
Germany and Prussia. Prussia, and later Germany have used a black eagle as their national symbol.
Spain. The Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, used the eagle as a part of the royal shield representing Saint John the Evangelist. The eagle was again on the Spanish shield under the Francoist regime and the transition to Democracy (1939-1981).
The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks used a double-headed eagle as coats-of-arms.

So which one shall we randomly choose to be our pet fulfillment of the "eagle's wings"?

It is very easy to see which country the eagle’s wings represents and this is also the case for the Country that the lion represents.
By understanding the timing and geographical locations involved along with the opposing powers stipulated by Gabriel particularly in Daniel 8 within the visions makes the choice for us. The answers are there as clear as day if we let the Bible tell us in its own words.

For these reasons I know that America will attack Iran and utterly vanquish that country before President Bush leaves office and the lion and eagle will part company hence the eagle’s wings being plucked off.
Another thing that I pointed out was that the Lord spoke to the beast and told him why he would receive his mortal wound way back in Geneses.

Also we are told. Rev 13: 17. “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Before verse 17 can occur we are going to have to have a BIG DEPRESSION A massive debt ridden world economically and that is on its way, just look at the markets.
America will pull up the drawbridge.

Now I have not used the Bible because I have explained this many times, over many years on this site verse by verse, now it is starting and folk still don’t see it coming, some do but many don’t.

I am at the stage where the preparations of moving out of the city and into the country where there is water and the means to grow food for my family is done and this has taken over 20 years with prayerful study in faith and Jesus being the spirit of prophecy resulting in what is called eschatology opened my eyes.

I hope and pray for the ‘latter rain’ promised in Joel 2: 29.

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 12th 2008, 01:29 PM
I would say that I agree with you on this.

Within Daniel 7 we see the beasts – In verse 17-18 We are told that these beasts are kings/kingdoms that are on the earth at the time that Jesus comes in the clouds to set up his kingdom.

During the time of these beasts - we are told in verse 9 that the little horn (antichrist) will rise up among these Beasts (kingdoms).
By this we can see that these beasts of Daniel 7 are kingdoms on the earth at the end when the antichrist is on the earth to the time when Jesus returns.

This is backed up by Rev 13 where we see these beasts again during the time of the tribulation. This confirms that these beasts are on the earth during the time of the end (tribulation). Therefore, the beasts of Daniel 7 can not be past empires, because they are shown as the same beasts (king/kingdoms) of the tribulation of Rev 13. Therefore, They can only be end time nations who are present at the time of Jesus return as both Daniel 7 and Rev 13 tells us.

This is my take on who the beasts are of Daniel 7;
(Daniel 7; 4-7) Lion-with eagles wings that are plucked from the lion. England’s animal symbol is the lion and Our USA animal symbol is the Eagle. The USA (eagle) was plucked out of the England (Lion).
The bear – Russia animal symbol is the bear.
The Leopard with the wings of a foul – Germany animal symbol is the leopard – France animal symbol is the rooster (foul) = German/Franco alliance.

I find it ironic that Daniel depicted 4 beast on the earth just prior to Jesus return. Daniel told us that these beast are king/kingdoms and gave each beast a animal symbol. Today we can see that yes! there are nations on the earth today that have those animal symbols.
( Lion=England - Eagle=USA - Bear=Russia - Leopard=Germany - Foul= France)

What I find interesting is; In Daniel 7 we see these beasts are separate, but by Revelation 13 we see these beast have joined together, which shows a world government.

What I also find interesting is; In Daniel 7 we see the lion, eagle wings, bear & Leopard, but in Rev 13 the eagles wings are not depicted as being a part of this end time one world government...Why?

If I am correct and the eagles wings represent the USA, then why are we not depicted in Rev 13 as being part of the One World Government?
Two possibilities; We have been destroyed or we are not part of the One World Government at that time.
I pray that we are not part of it. There is a scripture that makes me think that MAYBE we will not be part of it and that is Rev 12:14 where Israel is given wings of a eagle to protect her during the tribulation. Perhaps we opt out and help Israel.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

It is possible that we do, because we can see by Daniel 11 that the antichrist makes war with someone, which means he has opposition. I pray that the opposition would be with the Eagles wings (USA) who is protecting Israel.

Dear Gods Child, you make some very interesting and observant points and I will get back to you on them. Your thesis deserves a good careful read and response to do it justice.
PC:hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Sep 12th 2008, 01:43 PM
I second what Prophecy_Countdown said. And I would point not just to Ezekiel, but also Jeremiah and Hosea.

So yeah, you've got the Beast, who was, now is not, and is yet to come (Rev. 17:8); and the whole world is astonished that the Beast returned (Rev. 17:8)--all of which *EXACTLY* describes Israel. You've got the Harlot riding the Beast...

...And you've got the kings who fornicate with her (Rev. 18:3). That is the U.S., right there. No question that the U.S. has a relationship with Israel.

Hi 1Pet 2_9. I will get back to you on the USA relationship with Israel. It might interest you a little.
PC:hug:

IPet2_9
Sep 12th 2008, 02:47 PM
Hi 1Pet 2_9. I will get back to you on the USA relationship with Israel. It might interest you a little.

You go to whtt.org, and they are offering everybody a free book, "One Nation Under Israel". I would say U.S./Israel is very much a fornicating relationship. :mad:

brakelite
Sep 13th 2008, 01:43 AM
I think we are thinking of ourselves as being far more important than we really are. We're only slightly over 200 years old, yet the handwriting is already on the wall for our "empire". That's not very impressive, considering how long Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Islamic Caliphate lasted. We need to see ourselves within a larger picture.
I think you are completely under-estimating your nation's significance to God. At the end of the dark ages, the true people of God in Europe were valiantly trying to embrace the reformation teachings that Luther, Wycliffe , the Wesleys and so many others had shared at the cost of their lives. Protestantism needed a home where the papacy could not attack it as she had done so with such violence previously.
In Rev 12 the woman (God's true church) escaped to the wilderness, and the earth swallowed up the flood that Satan used to destroy her. The wilderness was those places throughout Europe where God's people hid to escape the papal inquisitions etc. The Waldenses of the Piedmont in Nth Italy are just one example. The earth refers again to America, just like the second beast of Rev 13 rose up out of the earth. A place in contrast to the sea (people nations tongues etc of Europe) where there was comparative isolation and where the protestant religion could be established freely and with the support of the nation. Freedom of conscience aand worship as a concept was something utterly foreign to the papal mind of those years. God established the American nation as a refuge for those who would worship Him in Spirit and truth. At her very heart, in it's most conservative, the Vatican despises the US. She mocks at her 'freedom' to worship while at the same time uses that very freedom to establish herself in your midst. The counter-reformation began with the Jesuits in the 16th century, and continues today all over the world, but with particular focus upon the US. You need a history lesson. Read Fox's book of martys. Read other historical books of the middle ages in Europe and see for yourself the dangers the papacy presents to your freedoms.
That the US is now turning away from those ideals and again embracing papal teachings and entertaining papal dignatories is more damaging to her nationhood than any financial collapse.
You folk need to get out of your 'futurist' way of understanding prophecy and you need to look at history and how prophecy has been unfolding since the time it was first given. Because you miss the great landmarks of prophetic fulfilment of the past, you are missing the way it is being fulfilled before your very eyes today.

IPet2_9
Sep 13th 2008, 02:13 AM
brakelite, if we all need to flee America because it is Babylon, can we all stay at your house? :lol:

brakelite
Sep 13th 2008, 02:20 AM
brakelite, if we all need to flee America because it is Babylon, can we all stay at your house? :lol:
Heh, heh. If the US was Babylon, then yeah, you can stay at my place. ;)Unfortunately, the US is not Babylon. It is the false prophet which leads the world to join Babylon, which is a global conglomerate of false religion under the leadership of the Vatican, the anti-christ.
So as far as escaping Babylon is concerned, it is just as much here as there. :(

brakelite
Sep 13th 2008, 02:37 AM
brakelite, if we all need to flee America because it is Babylon, can we all stay at your house? :lol:
Heh, heh. If the US was Babylon, then yeah, you can stay at my place. ;)Unfortunately, the US is not Babylon. It is the false prophet, or at least American apostate protestantism is the false prophet, which leads the world to join Babylon, which is a global conglomerate of false religion under the leadership of the Vatican, the anti-christ.
You see, in the dark ages the papacy was both a religion and a secular power. However, to enforce her doctrines upon the populice, she had no standing armies. She had to rely on other governments to do her bidding. Here you see the perfect picture of the harlot (the papacy) riding the beast (the government power or state). When American protestantism gains such influence and power to cause the US govt to pass legislation to sustain religious belief and doctrine, then you will have what Rev 13 describes as the 'image to the beast'. In the dark ages a papal/state union. Soon to come, a protestant/state union. And this union will cause the world to follow the first beast, the RCC. The world will quickly follow. What the catalyst will be for this turn of events is anyone's guess. A natural disaster, or war or economic collapse or a combination of all the above. But remember what happened after 9/11? Everyone in the US it seemed wanted to go to church. Everyone, or so it seemed, wanted to be called a 'Christian'. So it is not a big step up to envisage such a scenario resulting from a disaster of some sort bigger than 9/11. Even today when I read the news from the states I see much concern re crime etc in society. (This is worldwide by the way. Many here are also worried by the state of society here). But what you have in the US is a number of conservative religious elements that have the ears of govt and are very keen to establish religious laws despite the 1st amendment. This should be a very worrying state of affairs for you. You will find that the conservative element is very 'catholic friendly'. The number of catholic men and women in high positions in the govt (aka Sen Biden;)) can only facilitate such a state of affairs that I describe above.
So as far as escaping Babylon is concerned, it is just as much here as there. :(

Gods Child
Sep 13th 2008, 04:50 AM
Eagles have been used by many nations as a national symbol.

The coat of arms of Navarre/Basque Country Kingdom has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Albania has a black double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Armenia has a gold eagle and lion.
The coat of arms of Austria has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of the Czech Republic integrates the symbols of Moravia and Silesia (both with female eagles in their emblems - red-and-white chequered and black respectively) on the coat of arms of the Czech Republic with Bohemia's lion.
The coat of arms of Egypt is a golden eagle looking towards the viewer's left.
The coat of arms of Germany has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Ghana has two golden eagles holding it.
The coat of arms of Indonesia has an eagle-like garuda carrying a shield on its neck and a banner on its feet.
The coat of arms of Iraq has the golden Eagle of Saladin
The coat of arms of Jordan has a black eagle.
The coat of arms of Mexico golden eagle perched upon a cactus devouring a snake.
The coat of arms of Moldova consists of a stylized eagle holding a cross in its beak and a sceptre and a branch in its claws.
The coat of arms of Montenegro represents the two-headed eagle in flight.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
The Insignia of the Pakistan Air Force includes the Peregrine Falcon State Military national bird.
The coat of arms of Panama has a harpy eagle
The coat of arms of the Philippines has the bald eagle of the United States.
The coat of arms of Poland has a white eagle with a golden beak and talons wearing a golden crown.
The coat of arms of Romania has a golden aquila holding a cross in its beak and a mace and a sword in its claws.
The coat of arms of Russia has a double-headed eagle.
The coat of arms of Serbia has a white bicephalic eagle of the House of Nemanjić.
The coat of arms of Syria formerly had the eagle of Saladin.
The Great Seal of the United States has a bald eagle.
The coat of arms of Yemen depicts a golden eagle with a scroll between its claws.
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Hellenistic Egypt. The Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt used it as their seal.
First French Empire. Napoleon Bonaparte used the Roman Golden Eagle as the symbol of his new French empire.
Persian Empire. The symbol of Persian Army was an Eagle
Rome. The Romans used it on the standards of their armies. From this derives:
The late Byzantine Empire chose a two-headed golden eagle as its symbol. It is popularly that one head symbolised ancient Rome, and the other head symbolised "new Rome" at Constantinople. From this derives:
Albania. The two-headed eagle is the emblem of "Shqipëria" or Land of the Eagles, which is known in English as Albania (see The Tale of the Eagle for the legendary origin of the name)
Russian Empire. After the fall of Constantinople, the Russian Empire took the two-headed eagle as its own symbol.
Charlemagne and Holy Roman Empire. After his crowning as the new Roman Emperor, Charlemagne adopted the ancient Roman eagle as his own symbol. The Holy Roman Empire born of his kingdom took the eagle, but the Habsburgs replaced the golden eagle by an imperial eagle. From this derives:
Austria. The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria.
Germany and Prussia. Prussia, and later Germany have used a black eagle as their national symbol.
Spain. The Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, used the eagle as a part of the royal shield representing Saint John the Evangelist. The eagle was again on the Spanish shield under the Francoist regime and the transition to Democracy (1939-1981).
The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks used a double-headed eagle as coats-of-arms.

So which one shall we randomly choose to be our pet fulfillment of the "eagle's wings"?


This list is very interesting, but it must be noted that many of these countries are third world countries and would not be able to be a supper power or to form any sort of One World Government, which is what Daniel was describing and Rev 13 backs up.

Out of the list you provided, most of them that had the eagle on their coat of arms, the eagle is not even their National symbol, nor did they come out of the lion in any way.

Some do have the eagle as their National symbol, but by their population they do not compare to the USA in people or power, nor do I see where these came out of the lion.

Take a look at the list you provided and compare the population to the USA and each countries National Symbol.

United States America - Population 301,139,947 – National Symbol = Eagle

The coat of arms of Navarre/Basque Country Kingdom has a black eagle.
Ended in 1500’s – split between Spain & France
The coat of arms of Albania has a black double-headed eagle.
Population 3,600,523 – National symbol = Olive
The coat of arms of Armenia has a gold eagle and lion.
Population 814,800 – National symbol = Eagle and Lion
The coat of arms of Austria has a black eagle.
Population 8,199,783 – National Symbol = Kangaroo
The coat of arms of the Czech Republic integrates the symbols of Moravia and Silesia (both with female eagles in their emblems - red-and-white chequered and black respectively) on the coat of arms of the Czech Republic with Bohemia's lion.
Population 10,228,744 – National Symbol = linden tree
The coat of arms of Egypt is a golden eagle looking towards the viewer's left.
Population 80,335,036 – National Symbol = Saladin's Eagle
The coat of arms of Germany has a black eagle.
Population 82,400,996 – National symbol = Black Eagle and Leopard
The coat of arms of Ghana has two golden eagles holding it.
Population 18,400,00 – National Symbol = Canje Pheasant and Jaguar
The coat of arms of Indonesia has an eagle-like garuda carrying a shield on its neck and a banner on its feet.
Population 234,693,997 – National Symbol = Komodo dragon
The coat of arms of Iraq has the golden Eagle of Saladin
Population 27,499,638 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Jordan has a black eagle.
Population 6,053,193 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Mexico golden eagle perched upon a cactus devouring a snake.
Population 108,700,891 – National Symbol = Golden Eagle
The coat of arms of Moldova consists of a stylized eagle holding a cross in its beak and a sceptre and a branch in its claws.
Population 4,320,490 – National Symbol = Auroch
The coat of arms of Montenegro represents the two-headed eagle in flight.
Population 684,736 – National Symbol = Lion
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Population 124,009,000 – National Symbol = No Symbol
The Insignia of the Pakistan Air Force includes the Peregrine Falcon State Military national bird.
Population 164,741,924 – National Symbol = Markhor
The coat of arms of Panama has a harpy eagle
Population 3,242,173 – National Symbol = Harpy Eagle
The coat of arms of the Philippines has the bald eagle of the United States.
Population 91,077,287 – National Symbol = Philippine Eagle & Carabao
The coat of arms of Poland has a white eagle with a golden beak and talons wearing a golden crown.
Population 38,518,241 – National Symbol = White Eagle, White Stork
The coat of arms of Romania has a golden aquila holding a cross in its beak and a mace and a sword in its claws.
Population 22,276,056 – National Symbol = Golden Eagle
The coat of arms of Russia has a double-headed eagle.
Population 141,377,752 – National Symbol = Bear
The coat of arms of Serbia has a white bicephalic eagle of the House of Nemanjić.
Population 10,150,265 – National Symbol =
The coat of arms of Syria formerly had the eagle of Saladin.
[color=blue]Population 178,000,00 – National Symbol = White Bicephalic Eagle, Wolf
The Great Seal of the United States has a bald eagle.
USA Population 301,139,947 – National Symbol = Eagle
The coat of arms of Yemen depicts a golden eagle with a scroll between its claws.
Population 22,230,531 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Population 124,009,000 – National Symbol = No Symbol

Below are past rules;
Hellenistic Egypt. The Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt used it as their seal.
First French Empire. Napoleon Bonaparte used the Roman Golden Eagle as the symbol of his new French empire.
Persian Empire. The symbol of Persian Army was an Eagle
Rome. The Romans used it on the standards of their armies. From this derives:
The late Byzantine Empire chose a two-headed golden eagle as its symbol. It is popularly that one head symbolised ancient Rome, and the other head symbolised "new Rome" at Constantinople. From this derives:
Albania. The two-headed eagle is the emblem of "Shqipëria" or Land of the Eagles, which is known in English as Albania (see The Tale of the Eagle for the legendary origin of the name)
Russian Empire. After the fall of Constantinople, the Russian Empire took the two-headed eagle as its own symbol.
Charlemagne and Holy Roman Empire. After his crowning as the new Roman Emperor, Charlemagne adopted the ancient Roman eagle as his own symbol. The Holy Roman Empire born of his kingdom took the eagle, but the Habsburgs replaced the golden eagle by an imperial eagle. From this derives:
Austria. The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria.
Germany and Prussia. Prussia, and later Germany have used a black eagle as their national symbol.
Spain. The Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, used the eagle as a part of the royal shield representing Saint John the Evangelist. The eagle was again on the Spanish shield under the Francoist regime and the transition to Democracy (1939-1981).
The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks used a double-headed eagle as coats-of-arms.


So which one shall we randomly choose to be our pet fulfillment of the "eagle's wings"?
Thus I still think that the USA is the eagles wings spoken of in Daniel, due to it’s population and national animal symbol. Also the fact that the USA came out of the lion (England).
The other countries do not even compare as we can see.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 04:54 AM
I think you are completely under-estimating your nation's significance to God. At the end of the dark ages, the true people of God in Europe were valiantly trying to embrace the reformation teachings that Luther, Wycliffe , the Wesleys and so many others had shared at the cost of their lives. Protestantism needed a home where the papacy could not attack it as she had done so with such violence previously.
In Rev 12 the woman (God's true church) escaped to the wilderness, and the earth swallowed up the flood that Satan used to destroy her. The wilderness was those places throughout Europe where God's people hid to escape the papal inquisitions etc. The Waldenses of the Piedmont in Nth Italy are just one example. The earth refers again to America, just like the second beast of Rev 13 rose up out of the earth. A place in contrast to the sea (people nations tongues etc of Europe) where there was comparative isolation and where the protestant religion could be established freely and with the support of the nation. Freedom of conscience aand worship as a concept was something utterly foreign to the papal mind of those years. God established the American nation as a refuge for those who would worship Him in Spirit and truth. At her very heart, in it's most conservative, the Vatican despises the US. She mocks at her 'freedom' to worship while at the same time uses that very freedom to establish herself in your midst. The counter-reformation began with the Jesuits in the 16th century, and continues today all over the world, but with particular focus upon the US. You need a history lesson. Read Fox's book of martys. Read other historical books of the middle ages in Europe and see for yourself the dangers the papacy presents to your freedoms.
That the US is now turning away from those ideals and again embracing papal teachings and entertaining papal dignatories is more damaging to her nationhood than any financial collapse.I am fully aware of all of this. I do not underestimate the importance of our nation in the historical development of Christianity. Without the United States, this world would have been a very different place today, and not for the better. God has used our nation in a mighty way. That is all history. I was speaking of prophecy and the future, however, so the historical argument does not apply.
You folk need to get out of your 'futurist' way of understanding prophecy and you need to look at history and how prophecy has been unfolding since the time it was first given. Because you miss the great landmarks of prophetic fulfilment of the past, you are missing the way it is being fulfilled before your very eyes today.What reason would I have for making such a shift when the evidence for a futurist approach is far more convincing? If you want folk like me to "get out of our way of understanding", then it's up to you to enlighten us. I do not remain futurist because it's something that I just "like to do". Prophecy is not like political parties where you just jump back and forth however the wind of the day happens to blow you. We're talking about real, actual, lives and eternity. That is something that I take far more seriously than today's headlines, which will be gone and forgotten tomorrow. If somebody were to present me with evidence that the most important topic in the universe was something that I'm approaching incorrectly, then I'm going to give it a fair hearing. But if you fail to convince me that I need to change my view, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your own evidence, or at least your presentation of it.

As a former public school teacher, I can assure you that, if the students do not get the lesson, it ain't the students' fault. It's the teacher's fault.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 05:02 AM
This list is very interesting, but it must be noted that many of these countries are third world countries and would not be able to be a supper power or to form any sort of One World Government, which is what Daniel was describing and Rev 13 backs up.Would you have guessed in 1865, after our country was ravaged and torn apart by the Civil War that it would be less than 100 years before we would be the most powerful nation in the history of the world? Keep an open mind about these third world countries, especially the ones in the Middle East who are throwing up buildings as fast as they can build them, with our oil money.
Out of the list you provided, most of them that had the eagle on their coat of arms, the eagle is not even their National symbol, nor did they come out of the lion in any way.What lion? The UK? Do I need to also post a list of nations that have used the lion for a symbol?
Some do have the eagle as their National symbol, but by their population they do not compare to the USA in people or power, nor do I see where these came out of the lion.

Take a look at the list you provided and compare the population to the USA and each countries National Symbol.None of this allows for changes in the future. Don't assume nothing changes.
United States Americal - Population 301,139,947 – National Symbol = Eagle

The coat of arms of Navarre/Basque Country Kingdom has a black eagle.
Ended in 1500’s – split between Spain & France
The coat of arms of Albania has a black double-headed eagle.
Population 3,600,523 – National symbol = Olive
The coat of arms of Armenia has a gold eagle and lion.
Population 814,800 – National symbol = Eagle and Lion
The coat of arms of Austria has a black eagle.
Population 8,199,783 – National Symbol = Kangaroo
The coat of arms of the Czech Republic integrates the symbols of Moravia and Silesia (both with female eagles in their emblems - red-and-white chequered and black respectively) on the coat of arms of the Czech Republic with Bohemia's lion.
Population 10,228,744 – National Symbol = linden tree
The coat of arms of Egypt is a golden eagle looking towards the viewer's left.
Population 80,335,036 – National Symbol = Saladin's Eagle
The coat of arms of Germany has a black eagle.
Population 82,400,996 – National symbol = Black Eagle and Leopard
The coat of arms of Ghana has two golden eagles holding it.
Population 18,400,00 – National Symbol = Canje Pheasant and Jaguar
The coat of arms of Indonesia has an eagle-like garuda carrying a shield on its neck and a banner on its feet.
Population 234,693,997 – National Symbol = Komodo dragon
The coat of arms of Iraq has the golden Eagle of Saladin
Population 27,499,638 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Jordan has a black eagle.
Population 6,053,193 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Mexico golden eagle perched upon a cactus devouring a snake.
Population 108,700,891 – National Symbol = Golden Eagle
The coat of arms of Moldova consists of a stylized eagle holding a cross in its beak and a sceptre and a branch in its claws.
Population 4,320,490 – National Symbol = Auroch
The coat of arms of Montenegro represents the two-headed eagle in flight.
Population 684,736 – National Symbol = Lion
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Population 124,009,000 – National Symbol = No Symbol
The Insignia of the Pakistan Air Force includes the Peregrine Falcon State Military national bird.
Population 164,741,924 – National Symbol = Markhor
The coat of arms of Panama has a harpy eagle
Population 3,242,173 – National Symbol = Harpy Eagle
The coat of arms of the Philippines has the bald eagle of the United States.
Population 91,077,287 – National Symbol = Philippine Eagle & Carabao
The coat of arms of Poland has a white eagle with a golden beak and talons wearing a golden crown.
Population 38,518,241 – National Symbol = White Eagle, White Stork
The coat of arms of Romania has a golden aquila holding a cross in its beak and a mace and a sword in its claws.
Population 22,276,056 – National Symbol = Golden Eagle
The coat of arms of Russia has a double-headed eagle.
Population 141,377,752 – National Symbol = Bear
The coat of arms of Serbia has a white bicephalic eagle of the House of Nemanjić.
Population 10,150,265 – National Symbol =
The coat of arms of Syria formerly had the eagle of Saladin.
[color=blue]Population 178,000,00 – National Symbol = White Bicephalic Eagle, Wolf
The Great Seal of the United States has a bald eagle.
USA Population 301,139,947 – National Symbol = Eagle
The coat of arms of Yemen depicts a golden eagle with a scroll between its claws.
Population 22,230,531 – National Symbol = No symbol
The coat of arms of Nigeria has a red eagle on top.
Population 124,009,000 – National Symbol = No Symbol

Below are past rules;
Hellenistic Egypt. The Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt used it as their seal.
First French Empire. Napoleon Bonaparte used the Roman Golden Eagle as the symbol of his new French empire.
Persian Empire. The symbol of Persian Army was an Eagle
Rome. The Romans used it on the standards of their armies. From this derives:
The late Byzantine Empire chose a two-headed golden eagle as its symbol. It is popularly that one head symbolised ancient Rome, and the other head symbolised "new Rome" at Constantinople. From this derives:
Albania. The two-headed eagle is the emblem of "Shqipëria" or Land of the Eagles, which is known in English as Albania (see The Tale of the Eagle for the legendary origin of the name)
Russian Empire. After the fall of Constantinople, the Russian Empire took the two-headed eagle as its own symbol.
Charlemagne and Holy Roman Empire. After his crowning as the new Roman Emperor, Charlemagne adopted the ancient Roman eagle as his own symbol. The Holy Roman Empire born of his kingdom took the eagle, but the Habsburgs replaced the golden eagle by an imperial eagle. From this derives:
Austria. The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria.
Germany and Prussia. Prussia, and later Germany have used a black eagle as their national symbol.
Spain. The Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, used the eagle as a part of the royal shield representing Saint John the Evangelist. The eagle was again on the Spanish shield under the Francoist regime and the transition to Democracy (1939-1981).
The Seljuk Turks and Ottoman Turks used a double-headed eagle as coats-of-arms.


Thus I still think that the USA is the eagles wings spoken of in Daniel, due to it’s population and national animal symbol. Also the fact that the USA came out of the lion (England).
The other countries do not even compare as we can see.This is all totally dependent on your assumption that the world situation will not change. That's a very dangerous assumption to make. Give it about 40-50 years - you won't even recognize the world you live in.

brakelite
Sep 13th 2008, 10:51 AM
If somebody were to present me with evidence that the most important topic in the universe was something that I'm approaching incorrectly, then I'm going to give it a fair hearing. But if you fail to convince me that I need to change my view, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your own evidence, or at least your presentation of it.

As a former public school teacher, I can assure you that, if the students do not get the lesson, it ain't the students' fault. It's the teacher's fault.
Hi. I am happy to take up the challenge. I agree with you that this subject is the most important topic in the universe. It is important how we approach it. There are 3 schools of interpretive thought. Preterism, historicism and futurism. I, like you, have no time for preterism. However it is interesting to note that both preterism and futurism both had their beginnings in the 16th century as part of the counter reformation in order to debunk the universal reformist understanding of the identity of the RCC as being the antichrist. Both interpretive schools were begun by Jesuit priests and taken up by others at a later date.

One of the most well-respected Bible Commentators in the history of Christianity was England's well-beloved, E.B. Elliott. In 1862, the 5th edition of his classic four-volume Horae Apocalypticae - A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was published in London. The great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, considered Elliott's work "the standard."

Volume 4 contains a well-written, thorough, and extremely valuable overview of every major Apocalyptic commentator in the history of Christianity - from the days of John to the mid 1800's - called History of Apocalyptic Interpretation. As a result of his vast research and tremendous historical perspective, Elliott clearly reveals the three major contending schools of prophetic interpretation.

"For, in conclusion, the readers of this Historic Sketch will see that there are but three grand Schemes of Apocalyptic Interpretation that can be considered as standing up face to face against each other... The 1st is that of the Praeterists; respecting the subject of prophecy, except in its two or three last chapters [of Revelation], to the catastrophes of the Jewish nation and old Roman Empire ... which Scheme, originally propounded, as we saw, by the Jesuit Alcasar, and then adopted by Grotius ... by Professor Moses Stuart in the United States of America, and by disciples in the German School in England ...

"The 2nd is the Futurist Scheme; making the whole of the Apocalyptic Prophecy, (excepting perhaps the primary Vision and Letters to the Seven Churches,) to relate to things now future, viz. the things concerning Christ's second Advent: a Scheme first set forth, [as] we saw, by the Jesuit [Francisco] Ribera, at the end of the 16th century; and which in its main principle has been urged alike by Dr. S.R. Maitland, Mr. Burgh, the Oxford Tractator on Antichrist, and others, in our own times and era, not without considerable success ...

"The 3rd is what we may call emphatically the Protestant continuous Historic Scheme of Interpretation; that which regards the Apocalypse as a prefiguration in detail of the chief events affecting the Church and Christendom, whether secular or ecclesiastical, from St. John's time to the consummation: - a Scheme which, in regard of its particular application of the symbols of Babylon and the Beast to Papal Rome and Popedom, was early embraced, as we saw, by the Waldenses, Wickliffites, and Hussites; then adopted with fuller light by the chief [Protestant] reformers, German, Swiss, French and English, of the 16th century; and transmitted downwards uninterruptedly, even to the present time.

"It is the last of which [the Protestant Historicist School] which I embrace for my own part with a full and ever strengthening conviction of its truth." Horae, Vol. 4, pps. 562, 563.

I used to be as you, an avowed futurist. In the 70's The Late Great Planet Earth was my second bible. Other movies and books became hugely popular and at that time I knew no other way of understanding scriptural prophecy. However, 10-12 years ago I read a book 'Daniel and Revelation' by one Uriah Smith. This book was first written and published in the mid 19th century. For a historical analysis of the progress of history as it relates to God's people I have read no better. And what it did was enlightened me to historicism . Now I view prophecy as a continuing unfolding of history from the time of Daniel to our present day. Smith detailed every verse of Daniel 11 and related it to actual historical events. The accuracy of the chronological picture was astounding. According to an historicist view of that chapter, we have but 5 verses to complete. Now that my friend makes a huge difference to how one views the second coming, and how one understands events leading up to it.

Being able to compare history with prophecy and seeing how they match so perfectly, is far more spiritually satisfying and relevant than reading the prophecies and then 'guessing' how they might be fulfilled. Impossible to do when most of the prophecies have already been completed, or are being currently being fulfilled as we speak.

Jesus Himself implied that prophecy was to be understood through an historicist approach.

Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Lu 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Jesus is here saying that when history is studied and we see various things in the past that have fulfilled the prophecies, then we can know that His coming is close. He does not say that we ought to read the prophecies and become foretellers of the future, but we are to watch, and pray and we will recognise the prophecies as they are being fulfilled.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 13th 2008, 10:08 PM
So basically, you're saying that historicism is the way to go because (1) E. B. Elliot said so, (2) parts of Daniel have already been fulfilled (which I would actually agree with, but not all of it) (3) because Jesus said that historicism is the way to go.

Ok, first, I'm not trying to be hateful here. I'm going to disagree with you on this, but since you can't hear me speaking these words in the way I'm thinking them, please understand that everything I'm going to say here is with the utmost respect for your position, even though I don't agree with it.

That being said, this might seem kind of arrogant sounding on my part, but I consider myself equal in God's eyes with E. B. Elliot. The Bible says that we are all a kingdom of priests before God, so no one person has any standing over another. I do not adopt any position on anything just because somebody said so. I weigh the truth or untruth of what they say and that alone will determine my response. So just because E. B. Elliot decided that historicism is the way to go is not going to convince me. He gives a good summary of the three basic positions regarding eschatological interpretation, but his facts regarding the origin of futurism are in error. The Apostolic Fathers had a futurist orientation in their eschatology, long before the Catholic Church was even started by Constantine.

I agree completely that large parts of Daniel 11 have already been fulfilled, everything up to the end of verse 35, in fact. Beginning in verse 36, it appears to shift to unfulfilled material. Now, if you can show how those verses after verse 35 have been fulfilled, then we'll have something to talk about.

I don't see anything in the verses from Jesus that you have quoted that would support Him saying we are to look to the past for fulfillments. In fact, the constant phrase "when these things come to pass" indicates the events in question were future. Considering that we're still waiting for the second coming, they still are future.

brakelite
Sep 13th 2008, 11:08 PM
I believe that a major starting point for you and any other futurist is to recognise the true identity of the antichrist. As you correctly asserted, there was a futurist view taken by the early church fathers, because this was out of necessity. So much was yet to be fulfilled, but they also recognised how prophecy had been fulfilled up to thier time. As John said, the spirit of antchrist was already at work, but the church was still waiting for the one to be rebvealed by the 'falling away'. This falling away that Paul spoke of took place with the rise of the papacy. Thus the papacy was revealed to be the antichrist. The reformers recognised this. They lived at the time of her greatest power, and most of them died at her hands.
But don't let the antichrist himself decieve you. The counter-reformation would have you believe that the antichrist is some sinister figure of the future who will ravage the church, oppose everything that the church stands for, and openly blasphemes Christ and is an avowed enemy of Christ.
But that image of the antichrist, also painted by such books as the Late Great Planet Earth and the Left behind series could not be further from the truth. The Greek word anti means 'instead of', or 'in place of'. It is used in the sense of substitution. Throughout the scriptures we are warned of deception, and that Satan is a great counterfeiter. The great counterfeit religion of the antichrist is set up by the arch enemy of Christ in order to draw people away from the truth. But you don't get a counterfeit 99$ note or a counterfeit 37$ note. The counterfeit looks like the real thing. So real that even the elect are in danger of being deceived by it if not for the truth found in the scriptures that reveal her.
Now some may ask what has all this got to do with America in prophecy? Well, I believe that the US will play the major role in forming the image to the beast. Now if no-one recognises the beast as the RCC then how will they recognise an image to it?
The apostles at one time said to Jesus, "You have the words of truth. Why should we look for another?"
If the RCC fits every requirement and fulfills every prophetic characteristic of the antichrist in the truest sense of the word 'antichrist', then why look for another?

danield
Sep 15th 2008, 02:33 AM
Brakelite, I think you are putting way to much stock in the RCC. I have thought and prayed and thought and prayed, and then read so much on the history and the current view of Protestants against the RCC, and I have come to the conclusion that they could NOT fit the description laid out as the antichrist. There are so many holes in that stance that I have finally figured out that it has to be the detraction that the AC needs to rise to power unnoticed. While the churches battle one another someone evil will secure a foothold in a position that will put him in place for the appropriate time to rise up to control the world.

However, we are both on the same page as recognizing the importance of America in world history. I fully believe that we do play a huge role in the end times. There is no getting around our foothold on the worlds scene simply because of our nuclear arsenal. Yes, we will have a say about world events for some time, and that invention (the Bomb) has made it possible for a “Little Horn” to rise to power. Can anyone imagine what a few strategically placed nukes can do to the world’s scene? I just do not see the Pope involved in a horrendous violence act that would take in order to change leadership throughout the world.

I am reading a good book now about how America mimics the Roman society of ages past. We all defiantly see the immorality spread by this country, and it is far greater than anything that the RCC has ever imagined. I can only see it continuing to get worse as each decade passes. And the vast media outlets makes every new immoral fad so popular with the youth, it just gets ingrained in their culture. I do hope and pray I am wrong.

God Bless!

brakelite
Sep 15th 2008, 09:40 PM
Rather than me going through point by point (which I have done many times in these forums) where the papacy meets the conditions and requirements of prophecy re the antichrist, perhaps it would be easier and quicker if you show me the points where you believe the papacy does not fit the prophetic picture and we'll take things from there. And don't bother looking at the papacy as it stands today and expecting to see what Daniel described 2500 years ago. Her character has not changed, but her appearance has. So you can't go by appearance. Go by the prophetic picture then match it with history.
Brakelite

danield
Sep 15th 2008, 10:19 PM
That would be great brakelite. If you don’t mind, it may take some time to put something thoughtful in my post so it may not be a quick response. There are so many instances and I don’t want to just throw something together. Also know that in our or anyone else’s discussion, I do not say these things to offend you in any way. This discussion has nothing to do being argumentative or trying to spread discourse, however I may post something that might seem hard for us Protestants to accept. Know that I am a protestant too, but I realize the conflicts we have between our division of faith. I fall firmly on the side of being protestant in my style of worship, but one thing I accept is that just because I am a Baptist, I feel strongly that there are many Methodist and other denominations that will wear great crowns in heaven because of their strong commitment to the lord and not for their association to one group of worshipers or the other. With that being said just know that I do love you very much and I truly hope that I say nothing to offend you and your stance. If I do, please send me a private message and I will with draw my comments.

God Bless.

DigReal
Sep 16th 2008, 12:19 AM
First, I'd like to say that I'm finding the direction of this discussion to be a very interesting and enlightening direction. Please continue, even if only for my benefit. And please, please, do continue to be respectful of each other's perspective. I wish to explore at this time, not take sides. :D

I'm still quite new to the prophecy being discussed, maybe 6 weeks new. I also like to believe that I'm still very open-minded towards the different perspectives I'm seeing presented in discussion.

Literalist-Luke: I'm still waiting for the Contro section to be opened to me. And still looking forward to it. You do present a number of ideas I wish to continue to explore.

brakelight: Can you list any websites that you feel present a good overview (and details, too) relating to your perspective? I'm not presently in a position to go out buying new books right now, so websites are the best option for me. I should add that I haven't considered the historic option before now, so feel free to convince ME, not just those already convinced of the futurist view. If you've already posted any sites, please direct me to the one's you believe would be enlightening to me.

danield, you're a new brother to me, so feel free to direct me to other posts of yours that might help me relate to your beliefs on this topic.

Lady Ashanti, the OP, and all others with interest: Don't drop out of this discussion. :pray: I want to hear your questions and comments to the 3 I addressed above. I know we've all seen this topic brought up before, but this thread seems to have the potential to really explore it. :)

Thanks much, and God Bless you all.

danield
Sep 16th 2008, 03:23 AM
First of all brakelite I think some of my thoughts stem from my stance on where in time we are on the time line of the return of our Lord and Savior. So many people feel that the Lord has already fulfilled his commitment to return to his flock, however, it is impossible for me to accept this because when I read my Lord saying that he will return, it is going to be unmistakable for anyone to not know that he is king of kings. I do not want to spend a lot of time on proving my position on this and I can go through my thoughts on this in another post, but know that I stand strongly on my expectation that Jesus Christ will return in great glory as describe many times in the bible.

Also, know that when I read the bible I tend to take things literally. For instance, when it says that we should not steal, I believe it, and I do not try to manipulate my actions to cover for a sin that I have done. I am probably way to serious minded for my own good, but it is the way I understand what I read from Christ. You see I have had things taken from me and I know how it hurts when you need something and it is gone and don’t have the money to replace it. I see what Christ meant when he said to “do unto other as you would have them do unto you” vividly. So I never question his comments on other issues when I do not fully understand them. I can only accept them as an action in progress that has yet to be fulfilled. What I am driving to is comments like


Matthew 24:34 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.

This comment just destroys so many other interpretations that have been presented on this board because Christ told us that much of the end times will come to pass through the eyes of one generation. I am not going to try and manipulate the bible to give myself a more comfortable position than what was presented to me by my lord and Savior. Many people argue about how long a generation may be. I interpret this passage in this way. If we say that a generation is 25 to 40 years then the people who were born through that 25-40 year duration will see all that is to come to pass in their lifetime. If Christ is emphasizing I tell you the truth, then we better take it to heart. I am showing you these insights of my understanding of the bible in order for you to understand how I come to the conclusion of many end times issues. In fact, I follow many of these principles right down the line to shape my faith. I know that there are many grey areas in the Bible, but when I see things that reinforce my understanding of scripture then it turns that shade of grey to black quickly.

With that being said maybe we can dive into the topic at hand which is unraveling the RCC involvement as Babylon. One of the things that we probably need to address is how the Bible talks about Babylon in many places in the old and the New Testament. I want to pluck out one of the most straight forward descriptions of Babylon from Revelation 18. It describes her wealth.


Revelation 18:11-16 11 ¶ The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. 12 She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble. 13 She also bought cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and bodies-- that is, human slaves. 14 "The fancy things you loved so much are gone," they cry. "All your luxuries and splendor are gone forever, never to be yours again." 15 ¶ The merchants who became wealthy by selling her these things will stand at a distance, terrified by her great torment. They will weep and cry out, 16 "How terrible, how terrible for that great city! She was clothed in finest purple and scarlet linens, decked out with gold and precious stones and pearls!

There are a couple of things that stand out in this passage that I know we can both agree on. First of all we see the great range of goods that are bought by this Babylon. I feel that this range of items shows how large of a consumer this Babylon is. Know that this information is not stretching or manipulating things. Can the Catholic Church lay claim to this level of consumption in any age. Even at its heights, it was not the biggest consumer of luxurious items. I feel certain that this Babylon will be known as the greatest consumer of goods and services in of all history. Who else in 2500 years can lay claim to this title other than the USA.

The Catholic Church is not a great economic power. I know people think that it truly has a lot of money, but in Today’s wealth it is not an economic super power at all. It’s has a population of about 900 people. It has approximately .2 miles of area. It has about 0.7 times the size of The Mall in Washington, DC. Several of the dioceses in America have had to file bankruptcy because of lawsuits against them. In 1994 their budget was $175,500,000 million. The USA’s gross national product was $7,257,400,000,000. You are reading this right… The purchasing power of the USA was over 7 trillion dollars. So the entire budget for the year of 1994 for the Catholic Church was only equal to .00882 days (12.7 minutes) worth of output by America’s standards. This was 15 years ago… in 2008 our GNP is over 14 trillion dollars. The GNP is basically how much a country earns. Bill Gates earned more money than the budget of the Catholic Church in 1994.

If we want to travel back through history to examine their wealth, we can always point to several competing governments that equaled if not exceeded their wealth i.e. France and England. The Church was wealthy but it was never the great consumer of goods and services as pointed to in the Bible. Even at its height of power it did not trade with the merchants of the world to the point that if they were lost as a customer they would weep! Do you see this very important fact?


Revelation 18:11 11 ¶ The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods.

Being rich is not the same as being the world biggest consumer of goods and services. If you do not believe me ask any economist and tell them to draw you a comparison graph of what the Catholic Church consumes as compared to what the USA consumes. I do not know how to show you the consumption levels of say 1600’s, but I will assure you that the nation of say France consumption level was substantially greater then that of the Vatican. You see the Catholic Church great wealth was highly visable because they did not have a big population to feed as did the other countries. They had what is called disposable income. The point I am driving home is that the Catholic Church never would have made the merchants of the world weep for the loss of their business. The Bible is not talking about just being rich; it made the point to tell us that this Babylon would be the mover and shaker of the world financially.

Another point we can see vividly from this passage is that the merchants would come from the sea to trade with Babylon. The Vatican is land locked. Do we think our God is going to over look something like this? The bible has taken great pains to explain that this Babylon will rule over many waters and trade will take place over these waters. Now how is a ship going to dock at the Vatican? This one physical characteristic should make everyone scratch their head on. Remember we do not need to manipulate scripture to speak to us. Let us all listen to what the scripture says to us.



Revelation 17:1 "and I will show you the judgment that is going to come on the great prostitute, who rules over many waters.
Revelation 18:19 19 And they will weep and throw dust on their heads to show their grief. And they will cry out, "How terrible, how terrible for that great city! The shipowners became wealthy by transporting her great wealth on the seas. In a single moment it is all gone."


In addition to the lack of the Vatican’s port capacity, The Vatican does not rule anywhere but their tiny .2 miles of land. Even their churches in some foreign countries are sometimes subject to hostility from an evil dictator. They have a presence in many countries but they are far from ruling the majority of citizens of the world. Let me try and explain the difference. I know the priest here in the city I live in, and I pass his parish every so often. His influence is not even felt on our local government. Can you imagine how much of a lack of a voice the Vatican has many of the countries around the world? Does the parish in your community rule as the leaders of your government?

The Catholic Church does not export immorality. They have been involved in some really bad immoral things with the gay priests. However, one key event did not happen with in that church. They did not support it nor did they condoned it. It was not exported to the world and they are desperately repenting of the sins of those priests. I grieve for those victims, and I also grieve for the priest who committed those horrible sins because the bible says that if you cause even one of my children to stumble great punishment awaits you. And those priests represented the hand of God, and they betrayed the trust of the most innocent souls in our land, our children. I pray for them all! But these sins were not exported. Many also point to Mary worshiping as a great sin. However, I once again need to remind you that this is not an immoral sin as say gay marriage is. It is not right to bow to Mary, and even the official web site of the Catholic Church denies that they take part in this practice. However, I am not here to debate their doctrine other than showing that they are not and can not be Babylon.


Revelation 17:9 9 "This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings.
I know this is a corner stone of many who claim that the Catholic Church is the harlot. But I want to remind everyone that the Vatican does not have seven hills. It is Rome who sits on seven hills. Rome is part of Italy. It is an entirely different government with different leaders and citizens. Guilt by association of proximity should not count at all. God is not close in his details. His plan is perfect in every way. If the Lord raised seven hills up with in the land occupied by the Vatican, then I would scratch my head, but he didn’t. And I know that God can do all things including moving mountains! So unless seven hills rise up under the Pope’s feet, then all bets are off on his organization being the harlot.


Revelation 17:8 8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

This line is particular confusing to me because the Catholic Church was not alive before John wrote this. There has to be some sort of similarity of events in the past to fit this scripture. How can we fit the Catholic Church into events in the past when it did not even exist prior to this writing? Stay with me on this one for a second. Let’s look at the vessels that could possible fit this part of the scripture. Governments have faded away and reappeared. Obviously the beast could reappear in a government and control world events. Religions could reappear and help control world events. But Christianity was never in existence before Christ. And the Catholic Church is part of Christianity. How can its reappearance occur when it never existed prior to John’s writing of Revelation? It does not fit at all. It is like saying that the leader of the Methodist Church will take over the world as the beast when it did not exist back in John’s day.

Babylon in the bible does not need to be dissected in 20 ancient texts to understand what it represents. It is like asking for an interpretation of what thou shall not steal is. If you take something from someone else with out their authority, it is a sin. In the same manor we can recognize what Babylon is going to be. It is going to be a sinful, greedy, immoral group of people. I just don’t see how the Vatican fits this description. They help and feed the poor; they hold services to worship Christ, and many of the try to be very moral upstanding people. It is just hard for me to envision them as the beast!

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 07:20 AM
I believe that a major starting point for you and any other futurist is to recognise the true identity of the antichrist. As you correctly asserted, there was a futurist view taken by the early church fathers, because this was out of necessity. So much was yet to be fulfilled, but they also recognised how prophecy had been fulfilled up to thier time. As John said, the spirit of antchrist was already at work, but the church was still waiting for the one to be rebvealed by the 'falling away'.This falling away that Paul spoke of took place with the rise of the papacy. Thus the papacy was revealed to be the antichrist.I got some news for you - if you think the rise of the Catholic Church was the "falling away", you ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait until Islam takes over the world. THAT will be the falling away.
The reformers recognised this.Mistakenly.
They lived at the time of her greatest power, and most of them died at her hands.
But don't let the antichrist himself decieve you. The counter-reformation would have you believe that the antichrist is some sinister figure of the future who will ravage the church, oppose everything that the church stands for, and openly blasphemes Christ and is an avowed enemy of Christ.My Bible tells me that, not the "counter-reformation".
But that image of the antichrist, also painted by such books as the Late Great Planet Earth and the Left behind series could not be further from the truth.I agree, the Antichrist will be from Islam, not a European secular humanist.
The Greek word anti means 'instead of', or 'in place of'. It is used in the sense of substitution. Throughout the scriptures we are warned of deception, and that Satan is a great counterfeiter.Hence his role as the creator of Islam.
The great counterfeit religion of the antichrist is set up by the arch enemy of Christ in order to draw people away from the truth.Hence, the creation of Islam.
But you don't get a counterfeit 99$ note or a counterfeit 37$ note. The counterfeit looks like the real thing. So real that even the elect are in danger of being deceived by it if not for the truth found in the scriptures that reveal her.
Now some may ask what has all this got to do with America in prophecy? Well, I believe that the US will play the major role in forming the image to the beast. Now if no-one recognises the beast as the RCC then how will they recognise an image to it?People have been using this same argument for centuries. If it were true, I don't think you'd have to worry too much about people missing it. There's a lot of people like you who are convinced that the Pope is the antichrist. He's nothing. He's a toothless old man who pretends to be a world politician. The Mahdi will make him out for the powerless relic of the past that he is.
The apostles at one time said to Jesus, "You have the words of truth. Why should we look for another?"
If the RCC fits every requirement and fulfills every prophetic characteristic of the antichrist in the truest sense of the word 'antichrist', then why look for another?Because it doesn't. There are prophecies in Daniel, just for one, that do not fit. Check out Daniel 11:36-37.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 16th 2008, 07:25 AM
Literalist-Luke: I'm still waiting for the Contro section to be opened to me. And still looking forward to it. You do present a number of ideas I wish to continue to explore.I actually re-posted that article here if you would like to see it.

Lady Ashanti
Sep 16th 2008, 09:40 AM
I think you are completely under-estimating your nation's significance to God. At the end of the dark ages, the true people of God in Europe were valiantly trying to embrace the reformation teachings that Luther, Wycliffe , the Wesleys and so many others had shared at the cost of their lives. Protestantism needed a home where the papacy could not attack it as she had done so with such violence previously.
In Rev 12 the woman (God's true church) escaped to the wilderness, and the earth swallowed up the flood that Satan used to destroy her. The wilderness was those places throughout Europe where God's people hid to escape the papal inquisitions etc. The Waldenses of the Piedmont in Nth Italy are just one example. The earth refers again to America, just like the second beast of Rev 13 rose up out of the earth. A place in contrast to the sea (people nations tongues etc of Europe) where there was comparative isolation and where the protestant religion could be established freely and with the support of the nation. Freedom of conscience aand worship as a concept was something utterly foreign to the papal mind of those years. God established the American nation as a refuge for those who would worship Him in Spirit and truth. At her very heart, in it's most conservative, the Vatican despises the US. She mocks at her 'freedom' to worship while at the same time uses that very freedom to establish herself in your midst. The counter-reformation began with the Jesuits in the 16th century, and continues today all over the world, but with particular focus upon the US. You need a history lesson. Read Fox's book of martys. Read other historical books of the middle ages in Europe and see for yourself the dangers the papacy presents to your freedoms.
That the US is now turning away from those ideals and again embracing papal teachings and entertaining papal dignatories is more damaging to her nationhood than any financial collapse.
You folk need to get out of your 'futurist' way of understanding prophecy and you need to look at history and how prophecy has been unfolding since the time it was first given. Because you miss the great landmarks of prophetic fulfilment of the past, you are missing the way it is being fulfilled before your very eyes today.

...I am glad someone finally said it...Bless you!!!

Lady Ashanti
Sep 16th 2008, 10:32 AM
I got some news for you - if you think the rise of the Catholic Church was the "falling away", you ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait until Islam takes over the world. THAT will be the falling away

I believe the "great falling away" is the falling away of Christians, [which has been happening since 2000, and is escalating], and has nothing to do with a cult, or a religion.

I see how the "church" has become apostate,and lukewarm embracing a doctrine of prosperity, covetousness, and pride instead of the Gospel of Christ. This is putting the Holy Ghost out because covetousness,and idolatry grieves, and quenches the Spirit of God.

The restraining power of the Holy Ghost in the Body of Christ is what has been holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" all this time however as we replace God with material/financial "blessings", Jesus Christ with our leaders, and discernment with the opinions of men, He will withdraw, leaving us to our own devices.

Scripture teaches that when this happens, the Holy Ghost will no longer restrain evil, and the "son of perdition", [a man-not a denomination, or cult], will be able to come forth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version):

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29658a)] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29659b)] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29660c)] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663d)] who now restrains will do so until He[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663e)] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The anti-christ will arise out of the sea of politics, and since most Christians have been primed to worship "man" anyway, since we gauge people's spirituality by material possessions, and their life of ease, [provisions for the flesh], and believe giftings validate ministry, instead of godly living, it will be easy for them to switch over to following the anti-christ.

If you look in Rev. 7: 4-8, you will see that the tribe of Dan, and Ephraim is no longer listed with the 12 tribes of Israel, [they are replaced by Joseph, and Manassah]. They were rejected due to their covetousness,and idolatry, and so will be a majority of the church.

Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version):

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:13-14;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-23325a)] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Matthew 7:21-23 (New King James Version):

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Revelations chapters 1-3 is the Lord giving the "church" an opportunity to examine itself, judge itself, repent, and get themselves right with God. Since we know the "church" is not a building, denomination, or religion, but a body of believers, then I believe this is 7 basic groups of people within the Body of Christ, and we ALL need to look at them, and see where we fit honestly before the Lord, [no one has to know but God], and do what ever He says to do in each situation in order to get back in right standing with Him.

I believe that when we see the anti-christ come into power that will began the 7 "weeks". Those of us who still operate in discernment will recognize him, those of us who have had our discerment dulled by the doctrines of men will follow him.

Grace, and Peace...

DeafPosttrib
Sep 16th 2008, 01:45 PM
Lady Ashanti,

Well saying. Amen.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

My heart's Desire
Sep 17th 2008, 04:16 AM
I believe the "great falling away" is the falling away of Christians, [which has been happening since 2000, and is escalating], and has nothing to do with a cult, or a religion.

I see how the "church" has become apostate,and lukewarm embracing a doctrine of prosperity, covetousness, and pride instead of the Gospel of Christ. This is putting the Holy Ghost out because covetousness,and idolatry grieves, and quenches the Spirit of God.

The restraining power of the Holy Ghost in the Body of Christ is what has been holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" all this time however as we replace God with material/financial "blessings", Jesus Christ with our leaders, and discernment with the opinions of men, He will withdraw, leaving us to our own devices.

Scripture teaches that when this happens, the Holy Ghost will no longer restrain evil, and the "son of perdition", [a man-not a denomination, or cult], will be able to come forth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version):

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29658a)] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29659b)] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29660c)] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663d)] who now restrains will do so until He[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663e)] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The anti-christ will arise out of the sea of politics, and since most Christians have been primed to worship "man" anyway, since we gauge people's spirituality by material possessions, and their life of ease, [provisions for the flesh], and believe giftings validate ministry, instead of godly living, it will be easy for them to switch over to following the anti-christ.

If you look in Rev. 7: 4-8, you will see that the tribe of Dan, and Ephraim is no longer listed with the 12 tribes of Israel, [they are replaced by Joseph, and Manassah]. They were rejected due to their covetousness,and idolatry, and so will be a majority of the church.

Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version):

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:13-14;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-23325a)] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Matthew 7:21-23 (New King James Version):

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Revelations chapters 1-3 is the Lord giving the "church" an opportunity to examine itself, judge itself, repent, and get themselves right with God. Since we know the "church" is not a building, denomination, or religion, but a body of believers, then I believe this is 7 basic groups of people within the Body of Christ, and we ALL need to look at them, and see where we fit honestly before the Lord, [no one has to know but God], and do what ever He says to do in each situation in order to get back in right standing with Him.

I believe that when we see the anti-christ come into power that will began the 7 "weeks". Those of us who still operate in discernment will recognize him, those of us who have had our discerment dulled by the doctrines of men will follow him.

Grace, and Peace...
Yes, it will be the FALSE Church which will be the apostate church. Professing so-called Christians who do not have the Spirit. These follow man and man made ideas quite easily as you have said. The true Church will no longer be here to recognize the anti-christ, when he appears so yes, unbelievers deceived by doctrines of men will indeed follow him.

True sheep will not follow the voice of a stranger.

brakelite
Sep 17th 2008, 09:00 AM
I got some news for you - if you think the rise of the Catholic Church was the "falling away", you ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait until Islam takes over the world. THAT will be the falling away.Mistakenly.My Bible tells me that, not the "counter-reformation".I agree, the Antichrist will be from Islam, not a European secular humanist.Hence his role as the creator of Islam.Hence, the creation of Islam.People have been using this same argument for centuries. If it were true, I don't think you'd have to worry too much about people missing it. There's a lot of people like you who are convinced that the Pope is the antichrist. He's nothing. He's a toothless old man who pretends to be a world politician. The Mahdi will make him out for the powerless relic of the past that he is.Because it doesn't. There are prophecies in Daniel, just for one, that do not fit. Check out Daniel 11:36-37.

I'll give you just one reason why Islam can not produce what you believe to be the future antichrist, although there are more than one.
The Bible says Babylon is fallen. The word used for 'fallen is the Greek word from which comes apostacy, or divorce. Now no-one can be said to have been divorced except there was a former harmonious and acceptable relationship first. Islam has never been in any form of relationship with God, either harmonious or otherwise, therefore could not be said to be either apostacised, divorced or fallen.

The scripture you quote from Daniel is of similar vein to Pauls verse in 2 Thess. which speaks of the antichrist exalting himself above God. Please consider the following.

The following words, in a recognized Roman Catholic encyclopedia, illustrate the
blasphemous claims of the Papacy: “The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he
is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. The Pope is of such lofty
and supreme dignity that, properly speaking, he has not been established in any rank of
dignity, but rather has been placed upon the very summit of all ranks of dignities. The
Pope is called most holy because he is rightfully presumed to be such. Nor can emperors
and kings be called most holy; for although in civil laws the term ‘most sacred’ seems
sometimes to have been usurped by emperors, yet never that of ‘most holy.’ The Pope
alone is deservedly called by the name ‘most holy’, because he alone is the vicar of
Christ, who is the fountain and source and fulness of all holiness.
The Pope by reason of the excellence of his supreme dignity is called bishop of bishops.
He is also called ordinary of ordinaries. He is likewise bishop of the universal church. He
is likewise the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the Pope
is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.
Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertain only
to the heavenly things, to the earthly things, and to the things under the earth, but are
even over angels, than whom he is greater. So that if it were possible that the angels
might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith, they could be judged and
excommunicated by the Pope. For he is of so great dignity and power that he forms one
and the same tribunal
with Christ. So that whatever the Pope does, seems to proceed
from the mouth of God, as according to most doctors, etc.
The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief king
of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God
direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom.
The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret
even divine laws. [In proof of this last proposition various quotations are made, among
them these:] The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God,
and he acts as viceregent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and
loosing his sheep. Whatever the Lord God himself, and the Redeemer, is said to do, that
his vicar does, provided that he does nothing contrary to the faith.” (Lucius Ferraris,
Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica nec non Ascetica,
Polemica, Rubricistica, Historica, article, “Papa”.) This encyclopedia is not some
offshoot production. The Catholic Encyclopedia, volume VI, p. 48 in its article,
“Ferraris” lauds the virtues of this encyclopedia with the following glowing words: It is
“a veritable encyclopedia of religious knowledge” and “a precious mine of information.”

The New York Catechism states: “The pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth. . .
By divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and
every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church,
the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas,
the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the
world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one,
God himself on earth.” (Quoted in Lorraine Boettner, Roman Catholicism, p. 127)

Notice the following words in the journal, La Civilta Cattolica, “The pope is the supreme
judge of the law of the land. . . . . He is the viceregent of Christ, who is not only a Priest
forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords.” (La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871,
quoted in Leonard Woolsey Bacon, An Inside View of the Vatican Council (American
Tract Society ed.), p. 229, n.

What you think of the pope is irrelevant. It is what the pope thinks and says of himself and how that compares with scripture that is important. He sits in the temple of God (the church or the conscience of man) and proclaims himself God. He reserves the blasphemous right to forgive sin, create his Creator during mass, and to change or alter divine laws. By reserving to himself the right to change the very laws of God he places himself above God. If that doesn't fulfil the scriptures, pray tell me, what else will?

brakelite
Sep 17th 2008, 09:17 AM
brakelight: Can you list any websites that you feel present a good overview (and details, too) relating to your perspective? I'm not presently in a position to go out buying new books right now, so websites are the best option for me. I should add that I haven't considered the historic option before now, so feel free to convince ME, not just those already convinced of the futurist view. If you've already posted any sites, please direct me to the one's you believe would be enlightening to me.



Hi there DigReal. There is only one denomination that I know of that teaches historicism as it's policy with regard to prophetic understanding, and that is the Seventh Day Adventists, of which I am one. I am not permitted by the board here to publish any SDA websites. Sorry. I have however pasted a short article from a site which gives some general overview of scripture from a historcist perspective. I would be happy to fill in the details some time.

In Volume 4 of his massive Horae Apocalpticae (literally - Hours with the Apocalypse), in an incredibly valuable section called, History of Apocalyptic Interpretation, E.B. Elliott traces the teachings of every major Christian author who wrote significant commentaries o*n the book of Revelation from the time of John down to the 1800's - including Victorinus (1st century), Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus (3rd century), Origen, Methodius, Lactantius, Eusebius (4th century), Athanasius, Hilary, Jerome, Chrysostom, Augustine, Tichonius, Bede (8th century), Ambrose, Haymo, Andreas, Anselm (12th century), Joachim Abbas (12th century), Jean Pierre d'Olive, Martin Luther (16th century), Bullinger, Bale, John Foxe, Brightman (17th century), Pareus, Franisco Ribera, Alcasar, Mede, Jurieu, Dr. Cressener, Bossuet, Vitringa (18th century), Daubuz, Sir Isaac Newton (18th century), Lacunza, and Gulloway (19th century). His overview is truly enlightening and worth the price of the 4-volume set.

Elliott defines Historicism as "that view which regards the prophecy [of Revelation] as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the church, and the world connected with it, from St. John's time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfillment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon" (Horae, Vol. 4, p. 564).

Although there were differences of opinion, the following teachings reflect the continuous historicist approach to interpreting God's Word:
The 7 Churches (Revelation 2,3) - These reflect successive phases of Christianity from the time of John to the consummation.

The 7 Seals (Revelation 5,6) - These also reflect successive phases of Christianity from the time of John to the return of Jesus Christ. For instance Ambrose, Bishop of Havilburg, wrote in approximately 1145 AD, "The white horse typifies the earliest state of the church, white with the luster of miraculous gifts: the rider Christ, with the bow of evangelical doctrine ... The red horse is the next state of the church, red with the blood of martyrdom; from Stephen the proto-martyr to the martyrs under Diocletian ... The black horse depicts the Church's third state, blackened after Constantine's time with heresies ... The pale horse signified the Church's fourth state, colored with the hue of hypocrisy ... This state he makes to have commenced from the beginning of the fifth century ..." (Horae, Vol. 3, p. 383). This historicist view of the Seals was "the usual" view of most expositors down through the ages (p. 348).

The 7 Trumpets (Revelation 8, 9) - Daubuz, Mede, and Jurieu, along with almost all Reformation Protestants, saw Trumpets 1-6 as depicting "the desolations and fall, first of the Western empire, then the Eastern" (p. 514). Mr. Gulloway's (1802) "Brief Commentaries...", in harmony with other Protestants, viewed "the first four [trumpets] depicting that of the Gothic invasions of the West; the 5th and 6th, or two first woe- trumpets, those of the Saracens and Turks in the East" (p. 544). Mr. Bicheno (1793) also saw the "5th and 6th trumpets ... like most other Protestant interpreters, of the Saracens and Turks" (p. 546). (For more information about applying the 5th and 6th trumpets to Islam, read the article, The Army of Locusts, on this web site under Islam in Prophecy).

The Two Witnesses (Revelation 11) - Tichonius (4th century) saw "the sackcloth-robed witnesses as either the two Testaments, or the light-giving Church fed by the oil of those two Testaments" (p. 332). Most Protestants saw the two witnesses as faithful Christians throughout the Dark Ages who opposed the Papal Supremacy, while Mr. Gulloway also interprets them "to symbolize the Old and New Testaments" (ibid. p. 544), as did martyrologist John Foxe (p. 470). Sir Isaac Newton wrote of "the bitter times of the [Papal] Beast's 1260 years, and the Witnesses' prophesying in sackcloth" (ibid. p. 520). Vitringa (18th century) discerned "the Witnesses prophesying in sackcloth ... " with a bold "antipapal testimony from Peter Valdes to the Reformation" (p. 509).

The Child-bearing Woman (Revelation 12) - In harmony with many others, John Foxe interpreted "the Woman travailing" as "God's true Church" (p. 464). After the birth and ascension of Christ to the throne of God (Revelation 12:2-5), the Dragon turned its wrath upon the Church of Jesus Christ, which having fled into "the wilderness," was nourished during the 1260 days [years] of Papal apostasy and persecution.

The Leopard-like Beast (Revelation 13) - Dr. Cressener's (1690) "Demonstration of the First Principles of the Protestant Application of the Apocalypse ... well answers to its title. Its o*ne grand subject is the Apocalyptic Beast of Apoc. XIII and XVII ... And in a series of connected propositions he incontrovertibly establishes, against Alcasar and Bellarmine, that the Apocalyptic Babylon is not Rome Pagan ... nor Rome paganized at the end of the world, as Ribera and Malvenda would have it to be; but Rome Papal, as existing from the 6th century" (p. 500). "Vitringa" also, in harmony with the vast majority of Protestant scholars, "interprets it of Papal Rome" (p. 511). "In Apoc. XII and XIII. Sir Isaac Newton generally agrees with Mede ... Apoc. XIII [is] the Latin Papal Empire..." (p. 519).

Thus it is clear from the facts of history that Protestant scholars and others have for centuries understood the great prophecies of the book of Revelation not as applying solely to the first century (the Preterist view), nor to some imaginary future time-period after a supposed secret Rapture (the Futurist view), but as being successively fulfilled throughout the history of Christianity.

Hawkins
Sep 17th 2008, 09:27 AM
With America being a "super-power" I was wondering where we are in scriptures. I see some scriptures which I think refer to America, [I will post them later], however I was wondering why is it that when I read commentary I do not see America referenced.

Please supply scriptures telling me where you see America in the end times...

If this is a serious question, then I have to say that I don't know. Yet if it's a casual question then here you go, :bounce:

Revelation 6:2
I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

The key here is, replace the 'white horse' with 'white house', now you should have a clue. :pp

brakelite
Sep 17th 2008, 11:03 AM
Well done on your presentation and research.
First, I would like to prove that Babylon is a fallen Christian church. The word fallen comes from the Greek word meaning apostacy or divorce. This must therefore mean that Babylon formerly had a relationship with God that was acceptable. The great end-time counterfeit that threatens to deceive even the elect must be a counterfeit Christian church. Any other religion such as Islam would not be a counterfeit. The world is already in Satan's hip-pocket. They are no threat to him. It is the Christian church that he is at war with. It is they he desires to destroy, through persecution, or deception, whatever works. Jesus however said that in the last days deception will be the option of choice. No other religion will be deceptive to the Christian. But a Christian apostate church? One that claims the truth and appears 'Christ-like' but in the heart is an abomination? One that professes Christianity but commits adultery with the world by involgving itself with politics? By accepting the kings of the earth offers of authority and power? The RCC has practiced this very thing throughiout it's history, from the time she took over the seat of pagan Rome to the middle ages when she ruled the kings of Europe to the present day when she again is rising to ascendancy and has diplomatic relations with more nations than any other single country. Do not underestimate her influence. Security laws, media and press and public demonmstration laws and speech laws were implemented recently just for the popes benefit when he visited Australia. Did not the same occur when he visited the US? No other dignitory from any country engenders so much interest and law-making.

I agree with you that the Vatican does not lie on 7 hills, and it is Rome itself that does so. However, there are 2 ways to understand this. Papal Rome is merely a continuation of pagan Rome which indeed sat on 7 hills at the time John wrote the book. The little horn (which I beleive is the antichrist) grew out of Rome. Being a part thereof of Rome she inherits Rome's characteristics, and also her throne, and location. The other way of understanding this without doing any damage to the former, is appreciating that the Bible also says that the hills are kings. To understand this you need to go right back to Daniel 2. (Now remember I am historicist, so I see all this from that perspective). The statue the king saw was a depiction of 4 consecutive kingdoms that ruled upon the earth right up to the time of the second coming, at which time they are all destroyed. Daniel 7 takes the same consecutive kingdoms and enlarges the picture by giving more detail . Lion=Babylon; Bear= Media/Persia; Leopard= Greece; and most scholars accept the next kingdom and terrible beast as Rome. In revelation 13 we see a beast coming up out of the sea having 7 heads. It is a composite beast comprising parts of each of the former 4 empires.Thus this beast has a character which it inherited from all that went before. The RCC we know does inded teach much pagan doctrine and philosophy which originated from those powers. Those are the principle powers that had the closest relationship with God's people Israel throughout the centuries from the time of Daniel. The NT church however becomes the subject of prophecy and the remaining 3 kings of the 7 are the great global 'isms' that again have become the enemies to God's people,papalism itself, communism and in the end the final kingdom will be apostate protestantism. You may ask why can these be described as 'kingdoms'? Papalism has always been a church/state union. The pope has ever claimed secular power. It is a major part of her character. The woman riding the beast in Rev 17 is the church riding upon the state. She holds the reins while the state gives support. We see how in the future the kings of the earth give their power and authority to the beast and rule with her one hour.
Communism is the state version of atheism. This kingdom has done great damage to the church over the past 200 years from the time of the French revolution to the current teaching of evolution throughout the world today through state controlled education systems.
Revelation 13, the second part, is what this OP was all about. I believe it is apostate protestantism creating an image to the first beast (a church/state union) and globally empoering governments everywhere to wage war against 'those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.'

As to your comments regarding wealth. The mother of harlots is the RCC. She has daughters. They allare fallen, so at one time they all were faithful to the Lord but are now like their mother and commiting adultery with the kings of the earth (the state). Babylon grows further when the kings of the earth join with her in her harlotry and it becomes a great global enterprise incorporating the entire wealth of the globe; the whole world's financial system comes under her power as can be seen by her manipulation of the banking system to boycott those who do not worship as she dictates.Take a look at those items which are listed that she trades and deals in. They are items which were the stuff of trade in the days of John, but not so many of them today. However, if you put them in categories you will note that every single aspect of global trade is included.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:(international corp's)
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls,financial , banking,mining) and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, fashion industryand all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,(building industry)
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense,(pharmaceuticals) and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat,hospitality, food entertainment) and beasts, and sheep, and horses,agriculture and chariots,transport and slaves, politics ? and souls of men.religion

If she has relations with all the govt's of the world and rules over them, I would say that she has the wealth to go along with it.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 05:24 PM
I believe the "great falling away" is the falling away of Christians, [which has been happening since 2000, and is escalating], and has nothing to do with a cult, or a religion. What happened in 2000?
I see how the "church" has become apostate,and lukewarm embracing a doctrine of prosperity, covetousness, and pride instead of the Gospel of Christ. This is putting the Holy Ghost out because covetousness,and idolatry grieves, and quenches the Spirit of God.I would certainly agree that those things have led us into the age of Laodicea, but the people who are guilty of those things would still claim to be Christian, even if they really aren’t. The “falling away” will be when people don’t even claim to be Christian anymore. The word “apostacy” mean a departure, such as a divorce. These people have not divorced Christianity yet. The “marriage” is indeed in serious trouble, but they are still claiming to be “Christian”. The divorce will occur when they don’t even bother to claim to be Christian anymore.
The restraining power of the Holy Ghost in the Body of Christ is what has been holding back the "mystery of lawlessness" all this time however as we replace God with material/financial "blessings", Jesus Christ with our leaders, and discernment with the opinions of men, He will withdraw, leaving us to our own devices. Do you have Scriptural evidence that Paul was implying the Holy Spirit as the restrainer?
Scripture teaches that when this happens, the Holy Ghost will no longer restrain evil, and the "son of perdition", [a man-not a denomination, or cult], will be able to come forth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version):

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29658a)] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29660c)] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663d)] who now restrains will do so until He[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-29663e)] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.Yes, yes, I’m familiar with the passage, but that doesn’t give us any evidence that Paul was intending the restrainer to be the Holy Spirit. Do you have something that indicates that as the correct interpretation?
The anti-christ will arise out of the sea of politics”Politics”? Where does that come from? In the Bible, the symbolic use of the “sea” is consistently referring to Gentiles.

Isaiah 17:12-13

Woe to the [b]many nations that rage — they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar — they roar like the roaring of great waters! Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters, when he rebukes them they flee far away, driven before the wind like chaff on the hills, like tumbleweed before a gale.

Revelation 17:15

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
and since most Christians have been primed to worship "man" anyway, since we gauge people's spirituality by material possessions, and their life of ease, [provisions for the flesh], and believe giftings validate ministry, instead of godly living, it will be easy for them to switch over to following the anti-christ. Now, that I can agree with. :yes:
If you look in Rev. 7: 4-8, you will see that the tribe of Dan, and Ephraim is no longer listed with the 12 tribes of Israel, [they are replaced by Joseph, and Manassah]. They were rejected due to their covetousness,and idolatry, and so will be a majority of the church. Concerning why the Tribe of Dan is left out, every reason people give will always be nothing but guesswork. The simple answer is that the Bible does not say why Dan has been left out. No specific sin (like idolatry) could be leveled against Dan that would not be true of the other tribes as well. Furthermore, it is impossible to say that Dan has disappeared because in Ezekiel 47:13-48:35, where he deals with the restored Israel in the Messianic Kingdom, he points out that the tribes will be resettled in tribal divisions, and that includes the Tribe of Dan (Ezekiel 48:1-2). While people try to find all kinds of possible theological reasons why the Tribe of Dan is left out, again, it is all guesswork. Actually, the reason might be quite simple: to maintain the symmetry of twelve. If you have to make a list of all the tribes, you would end up with thirteen names and not twelve since the Tribe of Joseph was split into two distinct tribes: Ephraim and Manassah. If you had to maintain the figure twelve, you would have to leave one name out. Revelation seven left out the Tribe of Dan. This is not unusual. In Deuteronomy 33, Moses pronounces the blessings of the Twelve Tribes and he left out the Tribe of Simeon. Because a lot more people study Revelation than they do the Book of Deuteronomy, I have not found anybody wrestling with why the Tribe of Simeon is left out and no guesses are given. The fact is that the Tribe of Simeon was probably left out only to maintain the symmetry of the figure twelve. Deuteronomy left out Simeon and Revelation left out Dan, and there is no need to make any more of it.
I believe that when we see the anti-christ come into power that will began the 7 "weeks". Those of us who still operate in discernment will recognize him, those of us who have had our discerment dulled by the doctrines of men will follow him.It’ll be something specific that begins the seven years, like a treaty (Daniel says the confirming of a covenant sets the seven years into motion), but I can’t argue that many will follow him because of their ignorance of Biblical truth.

Literalist-Luke
Sep 17th 2008, 05:32 PM
The Bible says Babylon is fallen. The word used for 'fallen is the Greek word from which comes apostacy, or divorce.The Greek word is "πίπτω" or "pipto". What does that have to do with "apostasy"? "Apostasy" carries the connotation of divorce, as you have correctly mentioned. "Pipto" carries no such connotation:

Pipto:

1) to descend from a higher place to a lower

a) to fall (either from or upon)

1) to be thrust down

b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

a) to fall down

1) to be prostrated, fall prostrate

2) of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly

3) the dismemberment of a corpse by decay

4) to prostrate one's self

5) used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one

6) to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost

7) to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.

b) to be cast down from a state of prosperity

1) to fall from a state of uprightness

2) to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease

a) of virtues

3) to lose authority, no longer have force

a) of sayings, precepts, etc.

4) to be removed from power by death

5) to fail of participating in, miss a share in

That sounds like a perfect description that fits what will happen to Islam.
Now no-one can be said to have been divorced except there was a former harmonious and acceptable relationship first. Islam has never been in any form of relationship with God, either harmonious or otherwise, therefore could not be said to be either apostacised, divorced or fallen.There doesn't have to be, it doesn't even apply.
The scripture you quote from Daniel is of similar vein to Pauls verse in 2 Thess. which speaks of the antichrist exalting himself above God. Please consider the following.

The following words, in a recognized Roman Catholic encyclopedia, illustrate the
blasphemous claims of the Papacy: “The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he
is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. The Pope is of such lofty
and supreme dignity that, properly speaking, he has not been established in any rank of
dignity, but rather has been placed upon the very summit of all ranks of dignities. The
Pope is called most holy because he is rightfully presumed to be such. Nor can emperors
and kings be called most holy; for although in civil laws the term ‘most sacred’ seems
sometimes to have been usurped by emperors, yet never that of ‘most holy.’ The Pope
alone is deservedly called by the name ‘most holy’, because he alone is the vicar of
Christ, who is the fountain and source and fulness of all holiness.
The Pope by reason of the excellence of his supreme dignity is called bishop of bishops.
He is also called ordinary of ordinaries. He is likewise bishop of the universal church. He
is likewise the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the Pope
is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.
Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertain only
to the heavenly things, to the earthly things, and to the things under the earth, but are
even over angels, than whom he is greater. So that if it were possible that the angels
might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith, they could be judged and
excommunicated by the Pope. For he is of so great dignity and power that he forms one
and the same tribunal
with Christ. So that whatever the Pope does, seems to proceed
from the mouth of God, as according to most doctors, etc.
The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief king
of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God
direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom.
The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret
even divine laws. [In proof of this last proposition various quotations are made, among
them these:] The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God,
and he acts as viceregent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and
loosing his sheep. Whatever the Lord God himself, and the Redeemer, is said to do, that
his vicar does, provided that he does nothing contrary to the faith.” (Lucius Ferraris,
Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica nec non Ascetica,
Polemica, Rubricistica, Historica, article, “Papa”.) This encyclopedia is not some
offshoot production. The Catholic Encyclopedia, volume VI, p. 48 in its article,
“Ferraris” lauds the virtues of this encyclopedia with the following glowing words: It is
“a veritable encyclopedia of religious knowledge” and “a precious mine of information.”

The New York Catechism states: “The pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth. . .
By divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and
every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church,
the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas,
the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the
world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one,
God himself on earth.” (Quoted in Lorraine Boettner, Roman Catholicism, p. 127)

Notice the following words in the journal, La Civilta Cattolica, “The pope is the supreme
judge of the law of the land. . . . . He is the viceregent of Christ, who is not only a Priest
forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords.” (La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871,
quoted in Leonard Woolsey Bacon, An Inside View of the Vatican Council (American
Tract Society ed.), p. 229, n.

What you think of the pope is irrelevant. It is what the pope thinks and says of himself and how that compares with scripture that is important. He sits in the temple of God (the church or the conscience of man) and proclaims himself God. He reserves the blasphemous right to forgive sin, create his Creator during mass, and to change or alter divine laws. By reserving to himself the right to change the very laws of God he places himself above God. If that doesn't fulfil the scriptures, pray tell me, what else will?The fact of the matter is that the pope has no real political power. He did in past centuries of course, but today he's hardly good for anything but being on the evening news for a few seconds to show what disadvantaged country he's visiting today. He has no real power over people's lives. The antichrist will have real, true power over people's lives, and it won't be pretty.

Grace Alone
Oct 24th 2013, 12:11 PM
Nowhere! America is slowly but surely disappearing from the world scene.

Banislam
Oct 27th 2013, 09:49 PM
First, I would like to prove that Babylon is a fallen Christian church. The word fallen comes from the Greek word meaning apostacy or divorce. This must therefore mean that Babylon formerly had a relationship with God that was acceptable. The great end-time counterfeit that threatens to deceive even the elect must be a counterfeit Christian church. Any other religion such as Islam would not be a counterfeit.

You can't prove it because it's un-scriptural.
What makes you think Babylon has anything to do with the Church? You can't prove that Babylon is a fallen Christian Church because Babylon is Babylon. The word means confusion and the only other thing it's associated with is false religion. Catholicism isn't false religion. Babylon is not Rome. Why must apostasy have some relationship with God? Just because the word means to forsake and comes from the word divorce doesn't mean it started out CHRISTIAN! It just means that you divorce or forsake one thing and accept something else. Rome is not false religion neither is it anti-christ.

The only religion on the planet that is genuine counterfeit Christianity is ISLAM. Islam fits the biblical description of anti-christ ar per 1 John. ROME DOES NOT! Islam has a false god, a false prophet, a false book, a false jesus, a false returning messiah, and a false prophetic scenario.


No other religion will be deceptive to the Christian. But a Christian apostate church? One that claims the truth and appears 'Christ-like' but in the heart is an abomination?

The reason why you think the way you do is because you believe in globalism. The beast empire consist of ten nations. Who say's Christians will accept the man of sin?? YOU PEOPLE DO! The scriptures don't! For some reason too many of you think the Church is implied in the apostasy. The church will not accept the man of sin neither will it produce the man of sin. There isn't one verse that associates the church with the apostasy or the man of sin! And just what are those abominations the church is committing that fills the harlots cup?

One that professes Christianity but commits adultery with the world by involving itself with politics? By accepting the kings of the earth offers of authority and power? The RCC has practiced this very thing throughiout it's history, from the time she took over the seat of pagan Rome to the middle ages when she ruled the kings of Europe to the present day when she again is rising to ascendancy and has diplomatic relations with more nations than any other single country. Do not underestimate her influence. Security laws, media and press and public demonmstration laws and speech laws were implemented recently just for the popes benefit when he visited Australia. Did not the same occur when he visited the US? No other dignitory from any country engenders so much interest and law-making.

What makes you think the harlot is a Christian entity? Show me how you associate her with the church? Show me in Rev. 17 or 2 Thes. 2 where the Church is implied! Your analogy of Rome is completely mis-applied. You've been listening to the anti-Catholic people who love to demonize Christianity by attacking Rome. And you're living in the past. Rome is out of the picture and has't persecuted people for centuries. You've been grossly misled.


The little horn (which I beleive is the antichrist) grew out of Rome.

That's another major blunder.
The ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7 and 8 who stands against the Prince of princes comes out of Alexander’s splintered kingdom and no where else. The "king of the north" in Daniel 11 and 12, who exalts himself in the time of the end, comes out of the root of Antiochus which is a fragment of Alexander’s empire. Why do so many prophecy experts continue to tell us that Rome is somehow the origin of the beast!? That's the way the devil wants it!

All the nations mentioned in every prophecy that I know are Arab and/or Islamic today and they are committing the abominations of the earth. Not Rome. Not Catholicism. The ten toes mingled with iron and clay are a description of the final kingdom that will bring us to Armageddon and none other than the Arabs and Muslims.


The statue the king saw was a depiction of 4 consecutive kingdoms that ruled upon the earth right up to the time of the second coming, at which time they are all destroyed. Daniel 7 takes the same consecutive kingdoms and enlarges the picture by giving more detail Lion=Babylon; Bear= Media/Persia; Leopard= Greece; and most scholars accept the next kingdom and terrible beast as Rome

The fourth kingdom is Greece. Explain to me how the Medo-Persian empire was 'inferior' to Babylon when it was 3-4 times the size of Babylon. Explain to me why the word mixed that describes the iron and clay is the word 'arab' which denotes Arabia or an Arabian. How can the word 'arab' infer an Itallian?

The reformers were convinced that Rome would emerge as the end-time beast of Daniel and Revelation because Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christian's, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and persecuted Christians during the reformation for defecting from the faith. The RRE actually comes from prejudism and un-forgiveness the Protestants have toward the Catholics.

You, and many others, have fallen for the entire ball of eschatological wax from the prophecy experts. It's easier to take a sliver out of the back side of a wild cat than it is to change the mind of someone who believes in the Revived Roman Empire theory.


The woman riding the beast in Rev 17 is the church riding upon the state. She holds the reins while the state gives support. We see how in the future the kings of the earth give their power and authority to the beast and rule with her one hour.

Prove to me that the harlot is the Church? Why would anyone want to convert to Christianity knowing the Church is the end-time harlot that would produce and accept the man of sin. That's what the devil wants Christians to believe because it's self-demonization. What should be attributed to Satan and his followers is attributed to the church. That's blasphemy! Do you ever do your own homework or do you just accept hook, line and sinker what the experts teach?


The mother of harlots is the RCC.

I know that the mother of harlots has nothing to do with the RCC. The RCC is a great church. I like it.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm

Islam's latest contributions to Peace...
According to the religion of peace in September there were 233 jihad attacks in 19 countries against 5 religions with 2005 dead bodies and 3079 people critically injured.
How many people did the RCC church kill in the same month? 0! In fact many of the people killed by the religion of peace were Catholics!

Aviyah
Oct 27th 2013, 10:45 PM
Just wanted to point out that this thread is from 2008! Not saying your posts aren't worthwhile, just don't expect a reply from the person you quoted :hug: