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laratreun
Sep 10th 2008, 11:04 AM
Okay, so I need help. I'm trying to explain the loving nature of God to an atheist friend.
Here's his response:
"Where was the love when God killed Egyptian first born? Where was the love when he instructed his people to kill people of other belief systems?"

IPet2_9
Sep 10th 2008, 02:31 PM
Take it a step further: where is God whenever He kills ANYBODY?? We all die. I hear the same thing from people who say, "God always answers prayer". Well, He does. Sometimes His answer is "no". Otherwise, nobody would be dead!

God operates on a higher plane than we do. He has a perspective on the eternal things after life that we don't, and He also knows we're all going to die anyway--which, by the way, is a result of our own sin. For that reason, God is the only one who actually DOES have the right to take life. That and, God is the one who created life in the first place.

BroRog
Sep 10th 2008, 02:34 PM
There's a time for love and a time for hate. Wisdom is learning when these are appropriate.

Pilgrimtozion
Sep 10th 2008, 02:41 PM
I think there is a big difference between 'love' and 'being nice'; people often confuse the two. Love and holiness are often presented as opposites, but in the character of God, they are perfectly united and complement each other. When talking about the love of God, you should never lose sight of His holiness. God loves us, yes, and has done and does everything in His power to draw individuals to Himself. But He is also holy, and as a holy God, sin needs to be punished. Since in the Old Testament, there was no atonement for the sinner outside of the covenant with Israel, punishment was the result. Romans 1 and James 1 clearly tell us that when people sin, they choose to sin. People have an in-built sense of right and wrong called conscience. Is it not loving of God to punish people for their sins?

You cannot have the cake and eat it too; things simply don't work that way. So does your friend want a world without responsibility, without consequences for our actions?

Longsufferer
Sep 10th 2008, 02:52 PM
Then, in the Old Testament sin was killed physically, but now under the New Covenant sin is killed spiritually by principalities. We now kill, or overcome immorality with morality; we kill dishonesty with integrity; we kill selfishness with unselfishness. We cut sin off, so that sin cannot proceed to sin; we cut off its connection to continue, and if there is enough of this, it truly makes a difference in this present evil world.

Slug1
Sep 10th 2008, 03:05 PM
There's a time for love and a time for hate. Wisdom is learning when these are appropriate.I don't get your post here, so me being me I'm asking what you mean by "hate"


To the OP:

God has a purpose, a purpose that our human minds cannot fully comprehend. We can comprehend that this purpose requires God to use men to kill as well as God doing the killing Himself.

As humans we confuse killing that has a purpose vs. murder which is satans twist to the act of killing which is for destruction, not purpose.

Once a person can at least understand this... then the reason for killing is easier to, at a minimum, understand the requirement when needed.

Killing is not evil and God has killed, uses man to do His killing and will cotinue to kill until the very end and we are living for eternity with Him and there is no more need for killing.

satan will murder, has used man to murder in the attempt to thwart God's purpose and confuse us into misunderstanding God's purpose for killing and God's use of man to do His killing... past, present, and in the future.

BroRog
Sep 10th 2008, 07:28 PM
I don't get your post here, so me being me I'm asking what you mean by "hate"


To the OP:

God has a purpose, a purpose that our human minds cannot fully comprehend. We can comprehend that this purpose requires God to use men to kill as well as God doing the killing Himself.

As humans we confuse killing that has a purpose vs. murder which is satans twist to the act of killing which is for destruction, not purpose.

Once a person can at least understand this... then the reason for killing is easier to, at a minimum, understand the requirement when needed.

Killing is not evil and God has killed, uses man to do His killing and will cotinue to kill until the very end and we are living for eternity with Him and there is no more need for killing.

satan will murder, has used man to murder in the attempt to thwart God's purpose and confuse us into misunderstanding God's purpose for killing and God's use of man to do His killing... past, present, and in the future.

I mean it the same way God meant it when he said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

ServantofTruth
Sep 10th 2008, 08:30 PM
Please don't think i'm being funny, but i believe the answer to your question (the original poster) is in the book of Exodus. You could just read the first 15 chapters? That would solved most of the killing of the first born question.

If you are a newish christian, i recommend you stick to witnessing in the area of Salvation and the gospels in general. If a friend has a genuine question you can't answer invite them to a church event, service or study. Introduce him to a mature christian who is use to these questions and has studied long enough to know the answers.

Meanwhile there is no substitute for bible reading daily. In a year or 2, maybe 3, you'll have read the whole bible and can then look deeper at each question as they arise. I hope this helps. God bless, SofTy. :pray:

longtooth
Sep 10th 2008, 10:35 PM
"Where was the love when God killed Egyptian first born?"

At that time God's love was really with all of them. Some received it & others rejected.
All you are seeing is the death of the first born.
You are not seeing the saving of life of the Hebrews. They had been enslaved, beaten, thrown in the river for the crocadiles to eat.
God's love was setting them free. The Egyptians would not let them go.
Even the Egyptians had opportunity to receive the love of God. Moses showed the will of God to "Let my people go." Pharoah rejected that & actually mocked God.
"Who is God that I should obey Him."
God's love & mercy was extended to Pharaoh as to every man. He rejected that love & mercy then assaulted & killed the children of God.
In 21st Century English, God simply defended his children & set them free.
Pharaoh brought it on himself.

Emanate
Sep 11th 2008, 02:34 AM
My thoughts on why people view the God OT as "without love "cruel" or "without grace"

The story in Scripture is the story of a people (Israel). It is very one sided. So, we do not know the story on the other nations or their dealings with God.

Ravenwspr
Sep 11th 2008, 05:01 AM
John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.



And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.




Your friend gave you an open door to share the difference between old covenant things that happened and what new covenant because of God's love that we have in Christ... in Christ not even death will win (theres no failure):spin:

Sold Out
Sep 11th 2008, 10:54 PM
Okay, so I need help. I'm trying to explain the loving nature of God to an atheist friend.
Here's his response:
"Where was the love when God killed Egyptian first born? Where was the love when he instructed his people to kill people of other belief systems?"

I would first share the Gospel with him before answering questions like this. He will certainly see the goodness of God when he understands what Jesus did to save him.

threebigrocks
Sep 12th 2008, 04:45 AM
My apologies for catching this thread at this point, but your question is very well suited to the Apologetics and Evangelism forum. Moving this there for continued discussion.